I do wish our budgie smuggler wearing leader would stop making statements to the effect that Russia shot down MH17 with a missile, without producing any evidence.
With the exception of the MSM who are away in murdoch fairyland it is becoming obvious that there is considerable doubt about the true cause and it is leaning towards a shoot down by Ukraine Fighter jet instead.
The Ukraine rebels do not have any aircraft which rules them out.
Continuing to make empty threats to Russia is only making Tone more of a buffoon.
Please just keep out of it Tone and what ever you do don't even think of invading Russia.

US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft

This is the first post on MH17 coming from this direction that I have let through. Previous ones have not been approved as they were too close to the event and would have been offensive to a lot of people. This post is still offensive in that sense, but people are probably now less sensitised.

That I have let it through shouldn't be taken as tacit approval in any way shape or form of the underlying premise - that the aircraft was shot down by another aircraft and this somehow implicates the Ukrainians or the West.

I hope a number of world leaders, not just Tony Abbott, give Vladimir a good bollocking. Russia has become a gangster country which is in the process of monstering some of its near neighbours, and he takes most of the responsibility.

It is no way for a modern country to behave.

38 Australians were amongst those who perished
in that plane crash. Many obstacles were placed
in the path of reclaiming their bodies and attempting
to find out exactly what happened. Russia has been supplying
the Russian insurgents with all their weaponry in the
Ukraine. Russian tanks have invaded a part of another
independent country - Ukraine, and absorbed that part - the
Crimea in to their "Greater Russia."

Our Prime Minister has every right to have a "robust
conversation" with the Russian Leader during his visit to
Australia. He owes it to the families of those who perished.

Our prime Minister would be well served to stop acting like a tried hard schoolboy and start acting like a statesman.

While he was blathering away making hay and grandstanding in the wake of this terrible incident, Malaysia and the Netherlands were actually applying some diplomacy to gain access to the site and information on what actually happened.

Having said that, listening to the replay of the Russian backed Ukrainianin insurgents discussing the "hit", it seemed fairly clear that it had come from one of their ground to air missiles - and that it was not intended for a civilian aircraft....remember that recording?

"Shirtfront"...indeed!

Well he's had plenty of practice since the last election at shirtfronting the Oz electorate....it should be a piece of cake!

I have no problem with Abbott wanting to "shirt front" Putin, and as Graham puts it Russia has become a gangster country which obviously deserves a good bollocking from little old Aussie. To be consistent however, if you take a look at the who's who on the G20 list, maybe more than a few countries should be getting a good old fashioned bollocking from our Tone, for one reason or another. When he is finished with Putin he could move on to Obama, and "shirt front" him over the number of deaths in Cuba and other Latin American countries that can be attributed to the US over the last 50 years.

The members of the G20 are Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Mexico, Russia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Turkey, the United Kingdom, the United States and the European Union.

p/s Any chance Tone could "shirt front" himself for our past sins? I have to agree It is no way for a modern country to behave!

Herr Fuhrer has a wonderful pedigree for this kind of behaviour going back to his Oxford Blue days as a student. Add to this his involvement in the breaking up of One Nation & gaolings of Hanson/Ettridge, and you see what kind of person those who voted for him want to represent them. You got what you deserved electorate.

As you rightfully say Foxy, those families who lost loved ones have every right to be heard, but to sink to the level of the bully boys,thugs and murderers does us no good.

What now needs to be given its voice, is the seat for Australia in the United Nations and this should be done more articulately than has been the case so far.

Those who did not see Abbott's colours being flown during the One Nation stitch up were evidently then, as they are today, blinded by the sh*#e and smoke & mirrors generated by an effective and biased media.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
I have an open mind on the M17 disaster.
All evidence should be considered.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

One thing is for sure.
There are thousands of people now dying due to staple fish supply devastation and protein deficiency malnutrition linked to non communicable disease in the Pacific Islands off Australia's shores.
Eight out of 10 deaths are due to NCD.

As a barometer of devastated Pacific fish populations, millions of emaciated mutton birds arriving on the Queensland coast from Russian waters of the Bering Sea, have been found dead along coast extending from Mackay Queensland to South Australia and around Tasmania.

Russian leader Putin and Australian leader Abbott should be engaging in teamwork to find solutions to the environment and social and economic impact of seafood devastation, involving collapse of world ocean and river seafood sustainability.

Million of people cannopt afford aquaculture and other white meat. Fish used to be free and without cost of production.

All nations should work together in union instead of engaging in unsubstantiated accusations.

ISIS could even be asked for a ceasefire until Ebola is brought under control.

Million of island and river people dependent on fish now need employment and income to buy alternative essential protein that cannot come from gardens impacted by drought or constant tropical rain, cyclones and storms.

The Ebola River should become quickly understood because increase in disease in the Pacific is heading the same way due to poverty and chronic malnutrition that causes breakdown of the human immune system.
http://www.unicef.org/media/media_75860.html
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_issues_in_the_Democratic_Republic_of_Congo

Both Mr Abbott and Mr Putin and all Australian news media should look into economics of collapse of health and peace and security in the Pacific.
Instead of making accusations.
Until whoever is proven guilty.

This is a curly one, and depends extremely strongly on the so called "evidence".

Fortunately we are not so dependant on the media outlets, whether it be the airwaves or paper for news facts, details. We now have the internet which can make "fact checking" perhaps a little more detailed.

The media outlets often presented the "facts or evidence" in a certain way to manipulate the viewer /listener or reader. However the internet also has it's manipulators and conspiracy theories. Where the spin on "evidence" is also made.

A recent program on Air Crash investigators showed how certain important "details" can be left out of investigative proceedings in order to find no one culpable for bringing an civilian aircraft down.

So what are the real facts, when some of those facts maybe deliberately hidden or distorted?

Yes, what are the real facts. Should PM Abbott back off or not?

It appears Ukraine also has the same type of Russian made missile system said to have been used to hit M17.
But would eastern Ukraine rebels know how to operate such a high tech system CAPTURED from the Ukrainian army?

Note the following cut and pasted excerpt (from BBC Trending):

But the social media story really begins almost three weeks ago, on 29 June. Back then, a key Twitter account used by pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine claimed that they had captured a Buk surface-to-air missile system from the Ukrainian army. The tweet has since been deleted, according to BBC Monitoring. But this matters because Ukrainian officials later claimed that a Buk may have been used to shoot down the Malaysian Airlines plane.

From here: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-28371461

Google: M17 passenger oxygen mask.

Media is now claiming most Australian's do not want Mr Putin in Australia, however most Australians are not being told of doubt that exists about who is actually responsible for shooting down the M17.
Have Australian's been told Ukraine has the same missile system, or not?

Perhaps Australian Prime Minister Abbott is being misled, by being under-informed of actual facts.
Certainly the Australian public is being misled.
Perhaps unity and teamwork among leaders would be a good idea.

The following link indicates it is fact that Ukraine has the same type of missile system that eastern Ukraine separatist rebels are accused of using after being supplied by Russian leader Putin.

It looks like the Buk missile systems are all over the place.
Quote:
"After the fall of the Soviet Union, all those systems remained in Ukraine and today Kiev possesses no less than 70 such systems, RIA Novosti’s source said."
http://rt.com/news/194848-mh17-ukrainian-missile-buk/

Or Google: Ukraine Buk missile system.

I think Russian leader Putin should be welcomed to attend the G20 economic summit in Brisbane and I think media should investigate and report whether that summit must address economic solutions to world ocean and river fish devastation now linked to worsening poverty and malnutrition and disease worldwide.

The situation is not limited to who shot down MH17 it also consists on who is invading a sovereign nation. Who is the bully? Is such behaviour acceptable in a modern civilization?

Robert, the only statement I heard was that Russia supplied the weapons. They didn't fire them.

It's pretty obvious the plane was shot down and I'm sure the families of this victims don't really care what weapon was used, because all they know is that their loved ones were murdered and no one (except for Tony Abbott) seems to care.

The issue here is not about how or who shot down the MH plane, but what our illustrious PM ranted about on national TV.

Abbott and his mouth are an embarrassment to this nation.
Saying he wants to 'shirtfront' anyone is the sign of an aggressive idiot, not a PM.

I wouldn't mind betting that when he does meet Vlad, he will um and ah his way through a conversation, and trot 10 paces behind him as they walk through the venue.

Suse,

"Abbott and his mouth are an embarrassment to this nation.
Saying he wants to 'shirtfront' anyone is the sign of an aggressive idiot, not a PM."

Ain't that the truth!

Regarding the Prime Minister's wayward mouth, and notwithstanding the horror of this incident - which appears to be a case of an aircraft being mistakenly targeted in a war zone - Mr Abbott's repeated references in the early days of "remains" being affected by the heat and eaten by animals were extremely ill-thought and painful to the families of those lost.

The "shirtfront" comment was solely for domestic consumption - and it appears there are quite a few who like that sort of banter and believe it's appropriate for international dialogue between nations.

I've never seen anything approaching an "Abbott" in Oz politics. He's a man of limited class who exudes a thuggish and brazen demeanour. His greatest tool is the thirty second soundbite, employed to appeal to the basest of values, but packaged in a way that celebrates humanitarian ethos.

A shifty, opportunistic and inarticulate fellow at the best of times.

Surely the Liberal govt can offer someone more suitable?

AMID .....You got what you deserved electorate.

What other choice do you suggest we had, given the mess the labor/green alliance created?

As for all those who oppose Abbotts actions, just remember it's been many years since we've had a leader who displays real leadership. I know, it's unusual!

He told coke to go jump, and they did. He told the welfare sucking car industry that the free ride was over, so they are going and most importantly, he told the Australian people that he would stop the boats, and he did!

I know it must hurt.

What is clear ever since this mob came to power is their lack of ability through inexperience and blind ideology in dealing with international affairs. Abbott as the ring master in this circus is seen by many as the number one clown. As late as yesterday Abbott was backing away from his "shirt-front" comment and was refusing to repeat the words "I'm going to shirt-front Mr Putin - you bet I am." Yesterday those strong words had already be toned down by Tone to "I am going to have a very robust conversation." By the time Putin get here it might be something even softer if its anything at all. We'll have to wait and see.

Three points --- 1..Tony Abbott is a security risk to Australia. 2..If Ford supply a car to a motorist, and that motorist kills someone with that car, does that mean Ford is guilty of murder? 3..The post written by Graham Y concerns me, as it shows a propensity for censorship based on ideological/political grounds. I didn't realise he was like that, and I don't wish to be associated with anything operated by that type of person. I believe in free speech. I'll now resign my membership.

Paul, have you even said something a the heat of the moment, then thought, hang on, that may be a bit harsh. Well, guess what, if you say no, chances are you're a liar, but if you have, then why can't Tony Abbott be afforded the same rights?

Besides, Tony Abbott is no doubt sharing the frustration by, and showing sympathy for those who have lost loved ones in that tragic event that Russia was involved in. Why wouldn't our leader put the Russian leader on notice that there are serious issues that need to be discussed.

May May,

"....The post written by Graham Y concerns me, as it shows a propensity for censorship based on ideological/political grounds...."

Which political grounds?

Graham wrote:

"This is the first post on MH17 coming from this direction that I have let through. Previous ones have not been approved as they were too close to the event and would have been offensive to a lot of people. This post is still offensive in that sense, but people are probably now less sensitised."

Look, none of here have definate facts, but there are a few undisputed bits of information.
First, the Rebels said a Ukrainian fighter was following the airliner.
Part of the fuselage on the ground was shown on TV with numerous holes under the
port side cockpit windows.
A fighter damage from behind would not be there.
With the damage where it is, it is consistent with damage from a missile launched from ahead
and to the left of the aircraft course.

That is about all we here know but it is substantial as far as it goes.
I don't believe it was a definite action by the Russians but a blunder by the rebels
who were not properly trained.

Abbott and Bishop have acted on the International stage as strong leaders.
The comment on "shirtfronting" Putin has lost me and perhaps his international standing.
The comment in the Domestic Violence world would be reasonable.
The only accident report from the Dutch seem to indicate numerous small holes in the fuselage.
This would point to a fighter plane shooting down MH17 possibly Ukraine,not the Russian missile as Australia and US intelligence keep saying.

I strongly disagree with Graham's view of putin being responsible for mh17. Aust investigators have been stopped by the Ukrainian govt from doing their job. Again no black boxes found.wreckage has strong evidence of shell fire from fighter jet cannon fire and not missiles from Russian supported rebels.abbott has accused Putin of being guilty with no hard or even circumstantial evidence.

Brock, the holes are under the cockpit windows.
There would of course be many other holes elsewhere.
ARjay, the black boxes, actually orange, were found.

May may, with a statement like that about a ford,likening it to a missile, perhaps it is best you move on.

Come on MAY MAY...

Please don't leave the FORUM, I read and re-read Graham Y's thread, if there was any censorship, it was for the benefit of those who may have lost someone on that flight ? I really think you should re-consider, essentially because what he says is correct, Mr Putin is nothing more than a KGB thug, he's proved it over and over again. He uses others' muscle to force his opponents to comply with his directives, that's the indelible mark of a mug, and a practiced bully ! Come back please MAY MAY.

I'll tell you why Putin and China are being demonised. Russia was once part of this new world order concept of one world govt run by the Iikes of the Rothschilds.recently Russia has expelled the Rothschild banking cartel and nationalised much energy and resiources.
T.he bricks nations of over 100 countries are initiating their own development bank in competition with the likes of the Rothschilds. Our central bankers are losing their power,this is why they want war with Russia and China.The bricks development bank is offering the world progress rather than more wars and debt money enslavement

Graham Y>> I hope a number of world leaders, not just Tony Abbott, give Vladimir a good bollocking.<<

I will remind you of three crucial facts Graham which may be the reason for the sudden pariah status that the Western press has bestowed on the Ruskies .

Russia booted the IMF bankers and bidders out of Russia.
Russia rejected the valueless American Petro Dollar and has joined in the push for a gold standard.
Russia is a primary supply of energy to Europe.......that will get you pariah status on Capitol Hill.

There is still no answer as to who and how the Malaysian plane was taken down. If there was it would be shouted from the floor of the U.N. the next day....we still do not know who and how regardless of the western press pointing to Russian complicity.

There are several agendas in the squeeze of Russia and the IMF and NATO serve the same master...the European Banking Cartel.

Any pretence that America was helping the Ukrainians went out the window when in May 2014 the son of U.S. Vice President Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, was appointed head of legal affairs at Ukraine's largest private gas producer along with a family friend of Secretary of State John Kerry.....Do you reckon they speak Ukrainian?.........Graham we will have to differon our views.

I will qualify all I have said by stating that I am not a fan of the Russian administration or the KGB bred Putin.

Gawd Arjay, you must have some shocking nightmares.

Shirtfronting I read has two different meanings.
In Melbourne it is when an AFL player runs full tilt into another
player face to face.
In Sydney it is when you bail up someone direct face to face, in your face,
shirt to shirt so to speak, when you want to give someone an earful.

As the PM is from Sydney that is probably what he meant.

Lol!...would love to be a fly on the wall, "if" Tones gets the opportunity to give Putin an earful.

I expect he'll be very very very very very robust n'all that.

Abbott reminds me of those young hoons who drive Holden utes (preferably red) and who can't go round a corner without squealing their wheels - attempting with every fibre of their insignificant being to prove their machismo.

well the abc/progressives/feminist went ballistic when Tony supposedly punched the air 40 years ago. Lovely to abbottphobia again reaching a high pitch. It was very satisfying seeing the unelectable elected but more satisfying seeing the hissy fits from the usual suspects.

It's not disrespectful to point out that blast fragmentation warheads are designed with helical grooves to create aerodynamic, diamond shaped chunks of shrapnel and the MH 17 wreckage shows nice,neat little 30mm bullet holes with entry and exit points on the same panel indicating at least two strafing passes.
There's not enough information available on the web about the SA-6 series warheads to say for sure but most missiles use the most efficient method of fragmentation, which is the helical scoring on the warhead casing. Some missiles like the U.S HARM fire a shotgun like load of tungsten cubes but they're designed to destroy radar antennae and dishes on the ground, I wasn't able to find any information on an SA-6 family missile which fires 30mm ball bearings or 30mm flechettes.

Josephus, did you read about a skirmish from 1939 to 1945? Quite a lot of people got killed in it, restoring the right of peoples to self-determination. Many of them were Australians. To me they were heroes, never to be forgotten. To even consider the events in the eastern Ukraine in any other context brushes them aside. Who are the “bully boys” obstructing a civilised restoration of the right of peoples to self-determination in the captive regions of eastern Ukraine by the same process that honoured the same right in Scotland?

Rehctub, does singling out Russia, with no actual evidence, for a display of verbal heroics make Abbott “seem to care” about the victims of the MH17 murders? Indeed, be alone in “seeming to care”. Coulda fooled me.

Rehctub again: “Why wouldn't our leader put the Russian leader on notice that there are serious issues that need to be discussed?” OK. Here’s a serious issue - Organising internationally verified referenda to give the captive peoples of eastern Ukraine the right to self-determination. What a chance to shine in the world as a champion of human rights rather than a mindless buffoon.

Susan linear is ex via and sends me info on Facebook.she was the first non Arab to be arrested under the patriot act. She tried to warn the authorities about the 911 attaches and stop the invasion of Iraq,she backs up my last statement about the power of the rothschilds.

Susan last sent me info on countries who do not have a Rothschild central bank. These include North Korea,Iran ,Russia,China Venezuela, hungry Iceland and 2 others.is it not strange that all these countries are now demonised by the west? Ray McGovern is another ex via I get info from. Also see Robert David Steele.

The Ukraine is Russia's back yard and the west with proxies armed the nazi movement there to over throw a llegtimately elected govt. how would the usa like it if Russia destabilised Canada ?

The world is controlled by private central banks. Currently world debt is 5 times the gdp of the planet. Derivatives created by all this money printing is 10 to 20 times the gdp of the planet. We are in for a collapse never before seen on our planet, see James Richards the death of money. I

It continues to be a litany of lies and many fools on this site continue to believe them,

Of course, Tony's big match with Putin was only pasted on the billboards with the assumption that the two would actually meet with each other.

"“I certainly expect that while he’s a guest of Australia, he will undertake to have a conversation with the Australian prime minister.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/15/vladimir-putin-unlikely-to-meet-with-tony-abbott-at-g20-says-kremlin

However..

"“Russia is a part of G20 and the Russian president is free to visit the summit in Australia,” Peskov said. “His visit isn’t going to be a bilateral visit upon the invitation from the Australian side.

“As soon as Mr Putin confirms his visit we’ll make a relevant statement. The Russian government does not intend to respond to Mr Abbott’s colourful language.

“Mr Putin is unlikely to seek bilateral talks with Mr Abbott. Mr Putin’s office will be waiting for more diplomatic and pleasant occasion to get in touch with Mr Abbott’s office.”

Peskov is the deputy chief of the executive office of the president of Russia and a spokesman for the president."

So it seems that Mr Abbott's big mouth and impetuosity has crueled his agenda. Surely it would have been more prudent to keep his thoughts to himself in the lead up to the G20 - and perhaps then to have confronted Putin with his concerns.

The Credlin/Abbott administration is always careful to craft Abbott's often ill-conceived and embarrassing outbursts specifically to the domestic audience - they appear to believe that Australians admire a crass and overtly macho demeanour in their leaders.

Unfortunately, Abbott, when he ventures into the international arena, is confronted by the reality that he's the leader of a relatively minor player on the world scene - and any leader of note who he chooses to impugn for domestic kudos is always at liberty to snigger at the impertinence and then proceed to ignore the venerable Abbott and his cohort.

England and Scotland could do it without a shot being fired. I am sure that if shots were not fired in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine by separates then things may have worked out differently.

Quite right Poirot.

I wouldn't mind betting that Abbott won't get anywhere near Putin at the G20 summit, unless it is at the photo opportunity of all the leaders together.
Let's hope Abbott is not the one standing alone at the edge of the photo.

So Abbott can carry on like a manly macho he-man all he likes, but no one will notice...

Abbott might find himself having to deal with more protesters at the G20 than just the Russians. AT least 21 protest are planned and I'm sure many of those protesters would love to "shirt-front" Abbott, with the catch cry "Human Needs Not Corporate Greed" groups like Occupy G20 Brisbane will be hard at work getting their message across.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-g20/g20-organisers-aware-of-21-planned-protests-20141015-116cij.html

"manly macho he-man"

LOL, the language of the dinosaur radical feminists of the previous Millenium who hated men for being men and dumped on boys as well.

Feminists were never known for their sense of humour, but a sense of the ridiculous sure helped the population to put up with the bib'n'braces, jackbooted, foul-mouthed rad feminazis.

Q: How many feminists did it take to change a lightbulb?
A: 30. -Twenty-nine to indulge themselves in a free breakfast knees-up 'awareness-raising' at the Sheraton at taxpayers' expense, and one to slip out to ring a tradesman to come and fix it.

Shirtfront
The media particularly the print media are going through enormous change in recent years, so it can be expected that they would be wielding the wooden spoon to sensationalise and make the news. It helps that the federal Opposition are doing what Oppositions have done for a long time now, pose and buck about everything the government does.

Given the PM's Oxford education, the 'shirtfont' idiom should be reasonably taken as meaning to speak directly and assertively with another person who has erred against you. What else should a responsible leader do where 38 citizens have died horribly in a civilians plane that was shot down from the sky?

L'il Willie Shorten aka 'Whatever She Says' resolved not to even talk with Putin. Some top advice (NOT!) there from his 'Progressive' aka International Socialist entourage and would have suited him down to the ground.

Whatever She Says
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2012/apr/27/australian-minister-video

'She' at the time was one PM Julia Whatshername - you know, the one with the humble socialist $2million dollar bungalow - who stated emphatically that she preferred real men to 'mincing poodles'. Mind you as a politician who rode both feminist and 'Progressive' bandwagons, she was prone to acting like a weather cock*.

* Whoops, I have managed to drop the only 'C' word that the feminists find offensive.

Paul,
Occupy? Really? Well at least there's no danger of them actually achieving anything. Oh to be a Leftist in the 21st century:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7cwWegXCU

Abbott has been a major disappointment for a lot of Aussies. He goes along with the U.S. War machine. At the rugby league grand final gets booed by fans. We have to stop voting for the existing parties or noting will change.

Correction Susan lindaur is the ex Cia whistle blower and James Rickards wrote the death of money.

and Jay I thought the last of your type disappeared with Adolf in 1945! Seems a remnant still remains.
Jay thanks for that Youtube, a rather rowdy mob indeed. This bunch would be more to your liking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHn4TErLtmI

p/s Jay, you said you are part of a group of "like minded people" in Melbourne, do you also pass the helmet around at the end of your get together's?

Abbott portrays the image of someone who desperately wants to be one of the boys, strutting in both stance and speech. Threating to "shirtfront" a major world leader who will be a guest in the country is appalling bad manners, and an embarrassment to this country. I wonder how Malcolm Turnbull would have approached the matter if the 'liberals' had chosen more wisely.

Thinking about PM Tony ABBOTT and Pres. Vladamir PUTIN 'knuckling on', I'd back Mr Abbott any day, whereas our former KGB tough guy, without a couple of Russian 'heavies' behind him would only reign supreme by cheating. Besides, I'd back a genuine pug against this alleged '...judo wrestler...' as quoted by the Russian Ambassador, always !

The number of real good 'stinks' I've witnessed on the streets of Sydney over the years, has led me to believe that, any bloke who can hold his hands up, will always account for some of these phoney martial arts types ! To wit, John Andrew STUART, Arthur 'Ned' SMITH, and Graham 'Abo' HENRY to cite just three mere mortals !

If one were asked to define and clarify what risks if any, actually might exist, when dealing with a bloke like Mr Vladamir PUTIN ? It would be my humble opinion, that he'd be a very sly, devious and vengeful individual, that you could never be certain of anything he might say or do ? One thing you could bet on, in any nasty encounter, Pres. PUTIN would be the 'thinker' not the 'muscle' !

o sung wu,

Yup...this is the type of person we've got for a PM - and now we're discussing who could biff the other most comprehensively.

Hmmm...21st century Australia - thrilling isn't it!

"....he'd be a very sly, devious and vengeful individual, that you could never be certain of anything he might say or do...."

An so unlike the nature of Mr Abbott!

Abbott and Putin are both runts, so a good match up i say. It just reflects the quality of leadership we have these days.
On a scale of 100 points for leadership, Abbott 0 Putin 0.
So it's hard to fault either of them.

Hi there POIROT...

I dunno, perhaps it might just inject a bit of 'life' into our awfully banal politicians ?

Off we go on holidays for a couple of weeks - my poor wife most definitely deserves
the break, putting up with a mug like me, year in and year out !

o sung wu,

Enjoy your holidays!

Okeydokey...here's the latest.

"Germany's intelligence service believes Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by pro-Russian rebels using a missile taken from a Ukraine military base, a German newspaper has reported.

The finding contradicts previous claims – including by Prime Minister Tony Abbott and US Secretary of State John Kerry – that the missile was supplied by Russia.

Sunday's Der Spiegel reported that the BND, Germany's foreign intelligence service, had completed a detailed analysis of the July 17 tragedy, in which all 298 passengers and crew died."

"Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, in his recent "shirtfront" challenge to Russian President Vladimir Putin, said those on board MH17 were "murdered with Russian support".

"I am going to be saying to Mr Putin [that] Australians were murdered. They were murdered by Russian-backed rebels using Russian-supplied equipment – we are very unhappy about this," he said.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/prorussian-rebels-using-seized-ukrainian-missile-downed-mh17-passenger-plane-says-germany-20141020-118i9u.html#ixzz3GczQRcNR

Hmmm...that's our Tony...his motto is "When you think your on a good thing - open your mouth and spray it around before you've got all the facts."

Poirot,

It was clear from the beginning that the shooting down was not “murder”, i.e. intentional (since who could have expected to benefit from it?), and that it was a terrible mistake by the separatists, who were defending themselves (otherwise what would they need anti-aircraft missiles for?).

The question was only, whether the missile was provided by the Russians (with or without properly trained operators), whether the missiles were captured from the Ukrainians, or whether they came with the crew defecting from the Ukrainian army. This still does not seem to have been resolved.

George,

"It was clear from the beginning that the shooting down was not “murder”, i.e. intentional (since who could have expected to benefit from it?), and that it was a terrible mistake by the separatists..."

Precisely....

"....This still does not seem to have been resolved."

No...not for certain.

The point being that Abbott appeared to jump in with both feet (and continues his chest beating)...the reason he did that was to enhance his domestic profile in seemingly taking on the big boys.

Note this. George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were found guilty of war crimes in Malaysis in 2012. This trial adhered closely to the Neuremberg criteria for war crimes.

Could this be another reason why this mostly Govt owned Malaysian Airlines was attacked twice ?

Ukraine could benefit from the shooting down of M17 if it looked like the rebels in eastern Ukraine fired the weapon.

Remember also that Putin is on side with Iran and Syria.

Turning the world against Putin could be on the agenda of various nations.

Who was it that redirected the course of M17 to move further north and fly over the area where aircraft had been shot down during the previous week?
That apparent redirection appears to involve premeditation and possibly murder.
Has that been investigated and reported?

In any case it's unity and teamwork and peace and prosperity that the world needs.
Russian leader Putin is innocent until proven guilty.
He should be welcomed by Australia to attend the G20 economic summit in Brisbane.
Hopefully G20 agenda will lead to new productivity and business and employment to provide income, instead of poverty, unrest and war.

At least through the www, people worldwide can now gain insight to discuss what is really going on.

Suspicion of guilt is usually aroused when a suspect is caught with illegal weapons.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions

It's quite possible PM Abbott has been under-informed or misled so as to use Australia to put pressure on Putin politically because of his link to Iran and Syria.

Reality is that if the west joined in teamwork with all nations including Iran and Syria, there would be less injury and death and peace could be achieved more quickly.

Failure to take action to create relevant unity and teamwork might constitute negligence involving crime against against humanity and genocide.

The world is watching.

The only lifting of shirts by Herr Fuhrer is from the back, a bully boy with Oxford credentials backed by a bigger bunch of bullies feeding from the trough at Capitolist Hill in Washington DC.

>> Remember also that Putin is on side with Iran and Syria.<<

Putin warned against the dangers of Islamic State - that today is against not only Iran and Assad and Russia but also USA and all decent people - already in his 11. Sept. 2013 (!) NYT article, (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&):

“Syria is not witnessing a battle for democracy, but an armed conflict between government and opposition in a multireligious country. There are few champions of democracy in Syria. But there are more than enough Qaeda fighters and extremists of all stripes battling the government. The United States State Department has designated Al Nusra Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, fighting with the (Syrian) opposition, as terrorist organizations. This internal conflict, fueled by foreign weapons supplied to the opposition, is one of the bloodiest in the world.

Mercenaries from Arab countries fighting there, and hundreds of militants from Western countries and even Russia, are an issue of our deep concern. Might they not return to our countries with experience acquired in Syria? After all, after fighting in Libya, extremists moved on to Mali. This threatens us all.”

And further:

"It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it. "

What was the response? The creation of a situation in Russia's "intimate" neighbour that threatened Russia's only military naval base (Sevastopol in Crimea), to which this time also Putin responded with a "military intervention in internal conflicts in a foreign country", albeit with a comparably small number of people killed.

Yes George, your view there is of what is actually going on.

I think Putin is doing his best and I think he is correct in standing with Syria and Iran and eastern Ukraine people who want to follow Russia and don't want control by Kiev.
Australia did similar for East Timor rebels.

And yes there is security of Russia's fleet at stake.

I think it is obvious the quickest and most humane way to end the present bloodshed would be for the US and allies to team together with Putin and Iran.

Evidence in front of me indicates at least one way to achieve and sustain peace is through development of sustainable productive infrastructure to generate economic growth.
For example there is dire urgent need for whole of water ecosystem management infrastructure to sustain water quality linked to affordable food supply.
All nations could participate because evidence of substance indicates world ocean and lake water quality involves not only food and fertilizer supply but also the ecosystem of the atmosphere on this planet.

New growth at the bottom of the economy will generate new business and employment and income to allow people to buy food and to be consumers of other things needed or affordable.
There is need to grow consumption instead of having more and more poverty impacted and desperate rebels.

The G20 meeting in Brisbane is imminent.
World leaders should join in teamwork instead of following media politics and insulting accusations that cause separateness.