The “moderate Muslim,” is there such a thing?

Given the reported head chopping family of Muslims came from the suburbs of Sydney, do we have a bomb ticking and growing? No, we have a miniscule percentage of zealots and an overwhelming number of moderate Muslims.........so the moderates tell us.

Last year two Muslims beheaded Lee Rigby in a London Street and apart from the official Muslim disclaimer the same moderate community still harbour thousands of others with the same mindset. There has been no Imam driven campaign to humanize the religion because that is not the agenda. The agenda is conversion of all to this barbarous seventh century view of the world.

Of moderate Muslims, how do you “rationalize” with university graduates who adhere to the Imam driven seventh century protocols. I worked with two young university educated professionals I have known since their grad days. Their attitude is downtrodden minority, and has been as long as I have known them. I asked them, if I became a Muslim would I be closer to them than as a Christian.

They responded “yes like brothers” and justified the difference being my accepting Allah; I asked them if Christians and Jews were lesser in Allah’s eyes. Both responded yes and alluded to Judgement Day sorting the “faithful” from the not so. I quoted the only verse from the Koran that I had chosen to memorized:

>>Those who believe and those who are
Jewish and the Christian and the Sabians,
any who believe in Allah and the last day
and work righteously; shall have their reward
with their Lord: on them shall be no fear.
Quran 2:62 <<

They said that no Imam had ever recited this verse. The Imams need reformation. Uninformed moderates become zealots very quickly.

I too have Muslim friends, both here and overseas, and the most moderate of Muslims will become un-moderate when the chips are down, even if only for fear of what the un-moderates will do to their families if they do not toe the line.
Personal bravery goes out the window when the threat to one's children and spouse/s is not immediate but is a known threat that is irresistible and inevitable.

Dear sonofgolin,

This is a piece from the Independent in the UK over 15 years ago.

Quote

For the past five years, the people of northern Uganda have lived in terror of a strange and bloody children's crusade.

Led by a 34-year-old former Catholic altar boy called Joseph Kony, the army of abducted and brainwashed children that calls itself the Lord's Resistance Army has murdered thousands of civilians and devastated much of the north.

Their aim is to overthrow President Yoweri Museveni's government and rule Uganda in accordance with the Ten Commandments.

Since the insurgency flared four years ago, the authorities in Gulu district say the LRA has murdered 5,000 people and perhaps as many again in neighbouring Kitgum.

They believe 230,000 people have been displaced into protected camps, while the UN World Food Programme reports that war and drought are forcing it to feed 140,000 people in the region.

In addition to those killed, aid workers say hundreds - perhaps thousands - more have been attacked and mutilated for disobeying Kony's decrees.

Anybody caught riding a bicycle - the main transport in this remote region - is likely to be killed or have their feet hacked off. Those who speak ill of the rebels have had lips or noses cut off.

End quote.

Ultimately the equation seems to be give zealots of any of the three Abrahamic faiths access to weaponry and power and things go haywire quickly.

There are newspaper reports of corruption and incompetence in the Australia's immigration department.

It would be prudent of the federal government to wind back on the migrant numbers where the risks are greatest, until government can demonstrate to the public that all is above board and all risks have effective, efficient treatments, ie that the controls are in place, working as intended and are robust.

Whether or not Australia should continue with the population growth that a Third World country would be criticised for is another matter. Didn't a previous Labor PM admit that a 'Big Australia' was NOT policy welcomed by the public. Independent reports have showed that the benefits claimed for immigration are illusory and it is only the migrants who gain, not the host population.

Worrying reports from Europe seem commonplace. This is recent, from an independent research organisation,

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4129/islamization-belgium-netherlands

No federal government has ever bothered to ask the public if they want the 'diversity-Australians-are-obliged-to-have', or if it should be so extensive. It is momentous change, a revolution in reality. So much for democracy.

SteeleRedux,

"Ultimately the equation seems to be give zealots of any of the three Abrahamic faiths access to weaponry and power and things go haywire quickly."

Yes...that appears to be the case...

Just coming off a week or so of seeing many many civilians - babies, children, women and men being blown to smithereens in Gaza.

No, there is no such thing as a 'moderate' Muslim. The only difference is that radical Muslims terrorize and kill, while moderate Muslims make excuses and blame others.
This is because:
1. The Quran teaches hate and violence: It is a book with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of verses by a brutal, sadistic god that slander and vilify nonmuslims, urging discrimination and violence against them.
2. Islam's dear prophet attacked his neighbors for 10 years, launching dozens and dozens and dozens of raids against them to kill, loot, torture, rape and enslave men women and children (see Wikipedia's list of expeditions). Well, that is what Islam's own traditions and histories say, yet this man is considered a great moral example by the Quran and Muslims, one to emulate. Figure out, if you can, what this means.
3. Everywhere Islam dominates it discriminates against and persecutes nonmuslims (those 'lower than animal' people according to the Quran). Items 1 and 2 above may explain this.
4. Lastly, Muslims are never honest about these three things. They ignore the obvious, make excuses and blame others. They demand morality and principles from others, yet never apply these to themselves.

This is why Muslims, all Muslims, are hypocrites. They come and they bring Mohammad, death, lies and sorrow with them. The future will not be nice because Western civilization has betrayed itself, sacrificing its values in an orgy of political correctness, fraudulent multiculturalism and a kumbayah mentality that ignores simple reality.

Until Muslims say “Yes, the Quran does have verses that contribute to hate, violence and discrimination against nonMuslims” and “Yes, our dear prophet did attack, loot, rape and enslave NonMuslims in his wars“ and until Muslim societies repeal the blasphemy and apostasy laws and all other forms of discrimination and violence against nonMuslims (and even other Muslims), there is no reason to believe that Muslims are honest or that they can or will leave in peace with others. Any Muslim that says that Islam teaches peace, love and respect obviously has not read the Quran or is simply deceitful.

I recently had the opportunity to befriend a guy who was very much a moderate Muslim. Born overseas but educated at one of our top unis . You couldn’t have met a nicer guy in terms of honesty and decency. But if you scratched the nice exterior you found some qualities which were at odds with that image.

--During one conversations he acknowledged that his son (still an infant) would have to marry another Muslim. It was a requirement.
-- It became apparent that in his view all the woes of the world were attributable to either Americans or Jews, and Islam and its adherents could do no wrong. He even went as far as assuring everyone the Korans outlawing of pork was valid since pork had hidden poisonous qualities.
--He had swallowed hook line and sinker the prepackaged excuse that anything that disappointed his desires --like not getting that job --was due to Oz society having a set agen Muslims.

As one guy he was pleasant company . But if he ever held the balance power we might be in for some unpleasant surprises…
____________________

Kactuz,
Why haven’t you made an appearance on that other thread : “Cutting the grass in the theatre of war”? We could do with your input holding the line against the forces of darkness

SPQR,

Lol!..

In the one breath, he says...

"As one guy he was pleasant company . But if he ever held the balance power we might be in for some unpleasant surprises… "

And in the next....

"Why haven’t you made an appearance on that other thread : “Cutting the grass in the theatre of war”? We could do with your input holding the line against the forces of darkness."

Can you guys give me a rundown on all the dodgy violent verses in the Old Testament....after all, "It is a book with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of verses by a brutal, sadistic god..."

Poirot,

Surely you are not maintaining that because the much deconstructed & criticized Old Testament has some dodgy verse we must refrain from examining and exposing the nasty bits in the Koran?

Take off your dhimmi issue glasses and have a look around the world and tell us how many terror groups are inspired by the the nasty passages of the Old Testament as opposed to the nasty bits of the Koran (Steele has given you at head-start with his cherry picking of one in Uganda).How many others can you find in the present day world?

Just a thought: how many times have you eeeeeeeeeever critised the excesses of Islam? I'm betting its a nice round figure ...like zero!

At least Steele is sneaky enough to offer paper thin slivers of criticism (of Islam) sandwiched between two extra thick layers of anti-West & Israel diatribe.

As an atheist I consider ALL religions to be dangerous, in the hands of a fanatics religions can, and are used as a tool of hate. Be that religion Islamic, Christian whatever. The vast majority of people are fortunately moderate in outlook, even Muslims. Many of the sins of the world are caused by inequality, and religion is used as a focus for the hate that inequality breeds.
People who are educated, and have realised secular opportunities in life are rarely religious fanatics. I find that with both Muslim and Christian friends.

Once again Steele and Poirots Christophobic natures keeps them in total denial of the history and nature of Islam. Pathetic. Somehow they think their appeasement will save them. 'Moderate muslims'are only moderate until confronted by followers of Mohammed. How blind can one be.

SPQR,

"Surely you are not maintaining that because the much deconstructed & criticized Old Testament has some dodgy verse we must refrain from examining and exposing the nasty bits in the Koran?"

Certainly not...but if you are going to deconstruct the Koran, it's only fair that you take your scalpel and do the same with the Old Testament.

......

runner,

As I mentioned, I've just watched a week or so of Israel slaughtering tiny tots.

Might I ask you, old chap, if you'd be so kind to take your fundamentalist BS and direct it at someone else...I'm not interested.

'Might I ask you, old chap, if you'd be so kind to take your fundamentalist BS and direct it at someone else...I'm not interested. '

MIght I suggest Poirot you wave your Hamas flag somewhere else. Your blindness could not just be ignorance.

runner,

"MIght I suggest Poirot you wave your Hamas flag somewhere else. Your blindness could not just be ignorance."

Look matey, I have no truck with fundamentalism of any kind whether it be Muslim, Zionist or Christian.

My "flag" is in protest of herding people into a ghetto and then massacring defenceless children, women and men without a second glance. I didn't like it when it happened to the Jews - and I don't like it now it's happening to the Gazans.

It's "humans" who prone to buying all this dogma - and it's "humans" who seek to apply it to serve their own ends. Whether it's done with machetes or high-tech weaponry, it boils down to same thing. Humans are barbaric when it serves their purposes....and when they think they can get away with it.

It's interesting how you parade yourself around here under the "Christ" banner while spewing your fundie garbage left right and centre - garbage that is the antithesis of Christ's teachings.

Come on now Paul, you "consider ALL religions to be dangerous" you tell us, meaning the old ones.

Would that be why you & the other watermelons invented the new Green religion. The way the greens behave they display all the rabid ratbaggery of most religions, & Muslims in particular, perfectly.

Only time will tell whether the Muslims or the Greens are the most dangerous to the majority of Ozzies.

@SteeleRedux, Tuesday, 12 August 2014 12:03:21 AM

Your red herring false analogy has you apparently admitting the defects of Islam as described in the OP.

The rhetoric and inherent logical flaw are not necessary and only argumentative if you agree as others do, that Australia should exclude any who could disrupt our freedom, democratic traditions and rule of law, and our way of life. Secondly, government should make no concessions that could create a slippery slope to cause the same problems.

There is evidence, for instance ritual (religious) slaughter, where governments have backed down in spite of the clear will of the public that out traditions, culture and way of life should not be negatively affected by migration.

ATM there are reports of fraud and incompetence in administering immigration and visas for work. One would imagine that such very serious deficiencies might see some reduction in the intake.

There are also informal political policies at work that have never been discussed with the public nor permission obtained from the electorate. An example could be the sale in effect of Australian citizenship to international students. That has other flow-on negative consequences for the Australian population, for example by limiting places in universities and teaching hospitals - placements - preventing deserving, good Australian youth from going on past the medical science Degree to finalise their medical studies. Another negative consequence could be communication difficulties and perhaps even cultural expectation problems encountered by patients communicating with doctors of foreign language and cultural background.

Government needs to remember and be reminded where necessary that it is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

I have no doubt that our generations that follow will one day say, how on earth did our forefathers allow these types into our peace loving country. I wish I could answer that myself, as I have no idea either.

Time to ban the religion from our country, unless of cause we would rather wait for the ominous attack that is going to happen. Better to be pro active I say. That's if it's not already too late.

Then, if so called moderate Muslims do live here, then they will be faced with a choice, change their ways, or leave!

'It's interesting how you parade yourself around here under the "Christ" banner while spewing your fundie garbage left right and centre - garbage that is the antithesis of Christ's teachings.'

actually Poirot more interesting how you parade yourself as a humanitarian spewing your leftist fundie garbage that somehow your mob are the 'compassionate'ones. We saw it when 1000 plus drowned as a result of pig headed 'compassion'and we see it now where you distort and focus in on Israel with your warped blindness to Islam and in particular Hamas. Your garbage is the antithesis of 'humanatarian' teachings.

AArrrggghhh, get relative to the problem !
There is in our times no Christian terrorism.
The terrorism WE are facing is Islam.

Wake up, we ARE being invaded.

Just look at what is going on in Londonstan, Brussels, Amsterdam & Paris.
Do you deny that it is a blatant invasion by womb ?
They, the not quite moderate make no secret of it, they intend to
implement sharia law.
In parts of London they are enforcing sharia and are harassing women
for not "covering up".
Poirot, you are the most outspoken in defending the invaders, would you
be happy to submit to sharia law ?
Have you bought your burqua yet ? Is is black or blue ?
Oh by the way, saw a bit where one imman wants women to reveal only one eye !
It appears that seeing two eyes arouses him sexually. Hmmm.
This is what generations of cousin marriage does to you.

What concerns me is that ultimately we will be in a real battle in
Sydney with the armed forces of Allah. One thing I have realised
lately is that we will have the support of the Chinese community.
They have no desire to be under the rule of a dictatorship again.

Bazz,

"Poirot, you are the most outspoken in defending the invaders, would you
be happy to submit to sharia law ?
Have you bought your burqua yet ? Is is black or blue ?"

Lol!...this forum sure attracts some paranoid dingbats.

"...the most outspoken..."

Not by a long shot...unless you're referring to common humanity.

"Have you bought your burqa yet?" is the cry of the boneheaded bigot whenever he encounters a woman with a brain who disagrees with him.

It's such a laugh that the things you criticise for being at the heart of the problem with - insert whichever foreigner is getting up yer nose - are the very same sentiments "you" espouse.

It boils down to "fear and loathing" - and there's loads of it on this forum

But, carry on...it's fascinating.

The small child holding the decapitated head
of a Syrian soldier shocked the world.
Rightly so. Just as graphic photographs eminating
from other war-torn zones have equally done.

However, we have to be careful not to blame the
actions of brutal extreme minorities on the majority of
people within those groups - be they Muslim, Zionist,
or - Christian extremists, et cetera.

David Johnston, the Australian Minister of Defense,
warned that the actions of extremists should not
colour how the public feels about Islam as a whole.

"One of the things that I must stress here is an
extreme minority in Muslims (in Australia) and around
the world. The vast majority of Muslims are peace-loving
and peaceful people."

Just as the vast majority of Jews, and Christians are
peace-loving and peaceful people. Fundamentalists and
extremists exist in all religions and cultures as the
following two links show:

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-worst-terror-attacks-extreme-christians-and-far-right-white-men

http://www,commdiginews.com/world-news/in-tragic-twist-anti-balaka-christian-terror-groups-attack-african-muslims-9691/

Of course there are moderate Muslims. Contrary to current popular belief/propaganda Muslim people are not all the same and do not all follow the same 'strain'. That's the reason why thousands more Muslims have died at the hand of other Muslims than have any other group.

SPQR, Runner, for example, would insist that his children marry somebody of his particular brand of Christianity too. Not just any Christian. The ones in my family for instance wouldn't do at all. That doesn't necessarily make the Runners physically dangerous for the wider community. Can't vouch what happens in their own homes. I'm sure there would be habits or norms that would horrify other non-Runner Australians.

OTB. Dutch is my first language. The link you posted is a complete fabrication creatively using a few facts. Read this http://georgeknightlang.wordpress.com/tag/soeren-kern/ It is in Dutch, unfortunately, not much about what happens in the Dutch community, from voluntary euthanasia to Immigration is translated into English. Generally speaking, though not always so, what is translated in English just doesn't get any traction in the Netherlands and another audience is sought.

You might be shocked to know that there are Dutch citizens who are Muslim in the Dutch parliament.

As Paul stated: all beliefs when followed without question by adherents is dangerous.

I have always considered the notion of fearing God in any religion to be the foundation of their violence towards others. "Godfearing" is a contradiction in terms, and is used to justify all manner of atrocities. Organised religion has a great deal to answer for.

Bazz, have you been in London, Brussels, Paris or Amsterdam lately? I and my family have. And I have many of my family living and working in some of those cities. Do not believe everything you hear from afar, especially when touted by persons with a message to sell.

My son and friend was set upon and injured by a group of young men, all as white as they are. In Australia. My daughter regularly gets accosted and invited to have a f--k when out alone with girl-friends by boys as white as she is in Brisbane. She didn't know how bad it was until she went on her gap year through the Netherlands and Asia and was struck by the difference-no harassment.

What does that tell us? White Aussie boys are bad? Of course not. We should start moving away from focusing so much on race and religion and more on behaviour. An assault is an assault and in Australia we have laws to deal with that.

yvonne,

The link you gave was worthless.

On the other hand the Gatestone Institute you disparage seems to have experienced editors and contributors of repute. Here is an example,

<Amir Taheri
Chairman, Gatestone Europe

Amir Taheri was born in Iran and educated in Tehran, London and Paris. From 1984 to 1987 he was editor-in-chief of Jeune Afrique, the French weekly specializing in Africa. Between 1980 and 1984 he was Middle East editor for the London Sunday Times. He also wrote for the daily Times and contributed to The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, and the Daily Mail among other leading British publications. Between 1972 and 1979 he was executive editor-in-chief of Kayhan, Iran's main daily newspaper. He has been a columnist for the pan-Arab daily Asharq Alawsat and its sister daily Arab News since 1987. Taheri has been a contributor to the International Herald Tribune since 1980. He has also written for The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Newsday, and The Washington Post. Between 1989 and 1995 Taheri was editorial writer for the German daily Die Welt. He has also written for other publications including Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung, La Repubblica, L'Express, Politique Internationale, Le Nouvel Observateur, and El Mundo in Spain. Currently he is a contributor to the German weekly Focus. Taheri has published nine books. In 1988 Publishers' Weekly in New York chose his study of Islamist terrorism, Holy Terror, as one of The Best Books of The Year.>

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/biography/Amir+Taheri

'Can't vouch what happens in their own homes. I'm sure there would be habits or norms that would horrify other non-Runner Australians '

yep Yvonne son in med school, a daughter on the gravy train with Government and another who was married and home owner by 22 years of age. I am sure that their would be many who would love the fruit of this 'horrific'stuff Yvonne. Not to mention very happily married for 30 plus years. I suspect the man hating feminist would be a lot more toxic environment. But you never would let facts get in the way of your blindness would you Yvonne. Don't you hate what works and then moan immensenly about the fruit of the godless blaming everyone but yourself.

@Yvonne,
<<SPQR, Runner, for example, would insist that his children marry somebody of his particular brand of Christianity too. >>
Maybe, but how do you think the lefterati would respond to such? Look, you don’t even have to guess --observe how our own OLO Lefteratus , Poirot dumps on poor Runner!

On the other hand, if a local mullah were to insisted that every one of the four women he marries must be Muslim –and must clearly declare so on their centrelink entitlements card --Poirot would not raise a whimper . And as Runner himself observed (ala Aborigines) the ABC would probably laud him for preserving his culture.

It is obvious to any who watch that Muslim terrorists are very good at sorting out the Poirots of this world. I wonder if they would use a gun, a knife, or a bit of broken glass?

It is also fortunate that they have proven very good at fighting unarmed men & women, but fall apart when they get a real fight. They have also excelled in shooting in the air. Perhaps it makes them feel tough.

Unfortunately for them, real Ozzies are a little tougher. I think our Muslim "friends" will find it a little different here to the middle east, when they try their luck, which they undoubtedly will. They are unlikely to find us surrendering, & lining up to be shot in the back of the head.

Hasbeen,

Only Muslims?

Why just last week we witnessed terrified, unarmed and defenceless children, women and men being chased up and down the streets of Gaza by a regime armed with first world advanced weaponry.

Women, kids and old folk cowering in UN designated safe areas - schools and hospitals - were blasted to bits.

It wasn't Muslims firing those weapons at civilians.

The bleak side of humanity strikes again.

Errr Poirot, as to why those <<unarmed and defenceless children, women>> are in a war zone, this might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtg1pjnEW2c&feature=related

Though, I suspect it will be a complete waste of time referring you to such. Since you have shown yourself to have very much a one-track mind --and one that's non-re-writable to boot.

Absolutely correct, SPQR that I'm not going to watch your link. I rarely traipse around following your links.

If you're serially dispossessed of your land - and herded into 40 km long ghetto - where you're embargoed, food and medicine limited, held prisoner - your freedom to come and go stopped - and your overlord even stops your govt employees from being salaried while deliberately undermining co-operative agreements - then you might get a bit tetchy.

My point is that it's not "just" Muslims who are capable of massacres and cruelties - as we saw recently.

Israel's massacre of Palestinian civilians is all but condoned by the West.

Poirot,

<<My point is that it's not "just" Muslims who are capable of massacres and cruelties >>

Who said *JUST Muslims* were capable of massacres & cruelties?

Come-on cite your source?

Or did you JUST make that up too?

I've been trying to get a handle on what terrorism is carried out by non-muslims.

Not yet found the world wide stats but the following is interesting in regard to the USA. I've come across variants of this material in a couple of sites http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/05/muslims-only-carried-out-2-5-percent-of-terrorist-attacks-on-u-s-soil-between-1970-and-2012.html I don't know the affiliations of the site so perhaps the data is badly distorted, a link to the FBI material referenced http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005/terror02_05#terror_05sum is included for anyone wanting to check that.

More American materian but the following is interesting on the topic http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/06/americans-are-as-likely-to-be-killed-by-their-own-furniture-as-by-terrorism/258156/

Not sure about this author and I've only skimmed the article but others may find it interesting http://www.e-ir.info/2013/11/11/comparing-domestic-terrorist-threats-in-the-us-and-uk/

This one is an official UK governemnt review https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/335310/IndependentReviewTerrorismReport2014.pdf

R0bert

Hi Robert,

Here's an important little footnote to your first link:

"I agree, Mark Twain once wrote "there are lies, damn lies and statistics": The above analysis is quantitative and gives the same weight of an eco terrorist spray painting a building (destruction of property) to the 911 attacks.

A qualitative analysis (eg. number of people killed in all terrorist attacks) suggests that 93.8% of all murders by terrorist attack were committed by Muslim terrorists between 1980 and 2005.

As of 2007, the US Muslim population was 0.6%. Projected from 0.6% of the population to to committing 93.8% of the deaths suggest that Muslims are 156 times more likely to commit an act of terrorism where someone is killed.

Most Americans have not read the Qur'an and applied tafsir... They are too lazy, ignorant and indifferent (don't know, don't care).

The political correctness in America doesn't call attacks like the DC Sniper a terrorist attack - though he was retaliating for America's decision to invade Iraq. [Brettwashere nc runnerboy]"

Robert,
Your link states that "almost all" the Islamic terror plots in the U.S.A involved informants or undercover F.B.I or Police officers, this is true of "almost all" other terrorist plots as well.
Pretty much every Anarchist, Black Power, White Power, Latino Power or any other fringe group who've tried to pull off an attack has been heavily infiltrated and guided by state agents.
As for the assertion that 7% of terror attacks were down to Jewish extremists I find that hard to believe, I'm quite familiar with who's who in this area and I can't think of one Jewish terror attack on U.S soil.

SteeleRedux,>> Ultimately the equation seems to be give zealots of any of the three Abrahamic faiths access to weaponry and power and things go haywire quickly<<

Yes I agree SR, tis the nature of the collective that drives the individuals thought process.........in most cases. The outstanding modern example is the people of Germany from 1933 to 1945.

Onthebeach>> There are newspaper reports of corruption and incompetence in the Australia's immigration department.<<

OTB, not just corruption. The short lived Whitlam government implemented the Fabian approach to social engineering so as to take the homogeneity away from our culture. Key personnel implemented a “European free zone” policy and drew migrants from non European cultures....The Frazer government never corrected it.

kactuz,>> The Quran teaches hate and violence: It is a book with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of verses by a brutal, sadistic god that slander and vilify nonmuslims, urging discrimination and violence against them.<<

All true kactuz, but the Old Testament reads the same...............God’s people did some smiting and enslaving themselves. The new testament is a testament of love and forgiveness without the barbarity of the Koran and the OT.....so we have to stand against the current Muslim religion regardless of what the moderates say.

Poirot>>"Have you bought your burqa yet?" is the cry of the boneheaded bigot whenever he encounters a woman with a brain who disagrees with him.<<

....but Poirot you will pull the sexist card rather than reply to Bazz. What of his original question re the implementation of Sharia law on first world women?

SPQR, I might have missed but have you referenced that analysis?

A few points, from the article and I've seen similar elsewhere "Of the more than 300 American deaths from political violence and mass shootings since 9/11, only 33 have come at the hands of Muslim-Americans, according to the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security." The terrorism word complicates that picture but the 98.3% figure looks very unlikely in relation to american deaths. Possibly true for us if the recent plane shootdown is counted as an accident.

Its also very clear that muslims are by far the largest group killed by muslim terrorists. I'll leave aside the non-combatant muslims killed by western millitaries (drone strikes etc). War is messy and enemies rarely line up in straight rows in isolated fields wearing red uniforms these days but if drone strikes came to these shores and killed non-combatant members of my family I might find it a little difficult to consider it all for the good.

I have some deep concerns about muslim integration into the broader community especially where sub groups cluster together and share the teachings of a mosque that may seek to keep them isolated from the broader community for the sake of reinforcing religion. I don't see any credible and practical ways to achieve the sort of outcomes those most strongly opposed to muslim immigration want that would not massivly radicalise many of those already legally here. Make them feel even more threatened because of a shared religious identity and the problem gets made worse not better.

R0bert

I suppose a Muslim can be just as moderate or fanatic as any negative gearing advocate. Christians too have their fanatics. If we don't want Muslims here then we have to give the decent ones the choice to denounce their religion & offer them the protection to do so.
Most aren't even religious, they're simply too scared to denounce their religion because they know what would happen if they did. So, the ball lies in court of our law people.

There's no such thing as 'radical' Islam and there are no "moderates".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akB852Bcv4c

Dear Runner. Why do you think I'm man hating? The men in my life are amazing. As are all the women. Son with a double degree working for BHP. Son as a combat engineer with the ADF. Daughter doing a double degree at UQ. Step daughter, with a degree in French, devout Christian, married to a wonderful young man with whom she spent 2 years serving her ministry overseas, step daughter doing a degree in Sydney. My husband, who is the most ethical, hard-working and kindest man I know. He is incredibly smart and very highly thought of in his profession.

This is not even mentioning brothers and brothers-in-law, uncles and my late Father-in-law. Who was a serving minister in the Church, as was his father, in his young years.

My father, who passed away some years ago, is the person I most admire and was the most influential in shaping me to who I am. My mother never could contemplate finding someone else.

We have a very large, wonderful family who ALL get on with each other and love one another.

What about when I make a comment, you actually directly answer it. Would you accept your son or daughter marrying somebody who has different beliefs to yours?

These discussions have become a lot like eating McDonalds, all the appearance and nourishment of regurgitated bile but never a good idea to leave unattended as the stench only grows.

“A year ago I told my kids (2 of 3 are very liberal and think I am somewhat mad) that in 5 years Europe would explode because of racial and religious tensions.”
Posted by kactuz, Thursday, 14 July 2005 12:43:38 PM

Yup, you're mad.

Dear SPQR,

You wrote;

“At least Steele is sneaky enough to offer paper thin slivers of criticism (of Islam) sandwiched between two extra thick layers of anti-West & Israel diatribe.”

The last time I banged the drum over Saudi Arabia, about it exporting Wahhabism, about its terrible treatment of immigrant workers, of women, of its beheadings and its torture, there was not a peek from you. I called for the US to stop arming it with the latest high tech weaponry, for Australia to boycott it, to condemn it for funding Wahhabist schools in Indonesia for which the Gillard government spent a couple of hundred million dollars to combat (funding that has been withdrawn by the Abbott government to who knows what end), and you said nothing. When I highlighted the fact that the 9/11 terrorists mostly came from and funded by Saudi Arabia and that this should be the focus of the Western world's effort instead of invading and remotely bombing some of the poorest areas in the world you said nothing.

You sir, along with others on this thread, drip and ooze a blinding, bullying hypocrisy that would shame Lance Armstrong. You pick on the most blighted of the Muslim world for their temerity in attempting to seek asylum in this country but don't have the balls to address the real issue, well funded religious extremism from a US ally.

Cont...

Cont...

Dear runner,

How dare you. History tells us that Hitler had very little issue with Jews until a Christian Democrat got in his ear and poisoned him. It also tells of of a long tale of pogroms and wholesale slaughter and mass burnings against the Jewish people that has littered the Christian story for two millennia.
To paraphrase yourself; 'runner's Christophilic nature keeps him in total denial of the history and nature of Christianity. Pathetic.'. You and your faith has so much blood of 'God's chosen people' on its hands I really don't like your chances of ever reaching your heaven.

Dear onthebeach,

Perhaps foolishly I will engage with you but my tolerance for your behaviour toward female posters here remains absolutely zero. Let us see how we go.

You wrote;

“Your red herring false analogy has you apparently admitting the defects of Islam as described in the OP.”

No, I was talking about the defects of the zealots of the three faiths. Zealot: “a person who is fanatical and uncompromising in pursuit of their religious, political, or other ideals”. It originally referred to “a member of an ancient Jewish sect aiming at a world Jewish theocracy and resisting the Romans until AD 70.” Perhaps there is a case to be made that all things being equal the Muslim religion contains a greater percentage of zealots than the other two faiths but I have yet to see any evidence to support it.

Dear Bazz,

You wrote; “invasion by womb”.

Now I have this vision of giant wombs striding their way over Europe with laser beams firing from extended ovaries aka 'The War of the Worlds'.
http://youtu.be/EQdGMQrJSuI Sorry mate but you are as mad as kactuz.

yvonne

'We have a very large, wonderful family who ALL get on with each other and love one another.'

sounds like you are very blessed.

What about when I make a comment, you actually directly answer it. Would you accept your son or daughter marrying somebody who has different beliefs to yours?

Of course I would accept my children marrying somebody of a different belief to me. They know the truth and its up to them to determine their future. Believe it or not some of my closest friends differ in their beliefs to me. Thats what makes Christianity different from Islam. It is always free choice to follow Christ while the Koran teaches forced submission.

steelie: Ultimately the equation seems to be give zealots of any of the three Abrahamic faiths access to weaponry and power and things go haywire quickly

I couldn't agree with you more steelie. However Kony is an enigma. Maybe we could get him to take on that other of murdering scum in Uganda. One way or another they both need to be stopped, or is it OK for Boko Harem.

Poirot: Can you guys give me a rundown on all the dodgy violent verses in the Old Testament....after all, "It is a book with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of verses by a brutal, sadistic god..."

Yes I asked a Muslim in "Cutting the grass" for similar verses to:

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Telling people to kill unbelievers.

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (Margin note. "at home") and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (Margin note. "at home"). Unto all (Margin note . "Faith") Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (Margin note. "at home") by a special reward."

Telling people that Allah will reward them well for killing unbelievers.

Foxy: David Johnston, the Australian Minister of Defense, warned that the actions of extremists should not colour how the public feels about Islam as a whole.

Just the sort of Political Correctness that will lead to Jihad in Australia. I bet the Muslims are laughing in his face.

So, Yvonne you are Muslim.

Poirot: where you're embargoed, food and medicine limited,

Food, medicine & th other essentials of life are not embargoed. Weapons are.

Poirot: your freedom to come and go stopped.

If Hamas didn't try to send suicide bombers in, it wouldn't happen.

Like one of my old mates said, the third world war will be against stupidity.
The dumbing-down is earnestly in progress & we have to thank the educated for it.

Actually Individual, this is the First World War.
It started around 800AD and is still going.

@Steele,

<<The last time I banged the drum over Saudi Arabia, about it exporting Wahhabism, about its terrible treatment of immigrant workers, of women...>>
Sorry Steele, I must have blinked and missed that. Could you kindly link me to it. I'm not doubting it occurred mind you. But secreted as it would be among your voluminous writings on Israel or the West generally it might be hard to locate.

<< You pick on the most blighted of the Muslim world for their temerity in attempting to seek asylum in this country>>
Arrh but here's the rub. The majority are not so much RUNNING FROM Islamic extremism as BRINGING IT WITH THEM. They would be quite happy to live under Wahhabi authoritarianism just so long as they could enjoy a high level of material affluence. And indeed as if to prove that very point,many "asylum seekers" after have gained their meal tickets in Oz have returned to the Middle East to fight for fundamentalist causes.

Hi Robert,
Re << I might have missed but have you referenced that analysis?>>
It was from a letter/comment at the bottom of the article.

Muslims are not the problem, it's the religion they follow that's the problem as among other things, it harbors violence and hatred to others and, as long as we are a peace loving nation, which we are, that type of religion has no place here.

Of cause, because of the mindless stupidity of successive governments, in allowing this religion to be practiced here in the first place, despite the many warning signs over the years, riding our nation of this will be all but impossible and if this lattest imiage of a small so called Australian child holding a severed head aloft is not sufficient evidence to warrant action, what is!

"Muslims are not the problem, it's the religion they follow that's the problem...."

Er...come again, rehctub?

rehctub
"Muslims are not the problem, it's the religion they follow that's the problem...."

Yes. Spot-on.
Ah and don't bother trying to explain it to Poirot she would NOT understand anyway.

SPQR,

"rehctub
"Muslims are not the problem, it's the religion they follow that's the problem...."

Yes. Spot-on.
Ah and don't bother trying to explain it to Poirot she would NOT understand anyway."

Lol!

"Muslims are not the problem, it's the religion they follow that's the problem...."

spot on rectub just like secularist are not the problem just the godless doctrines they teach and live by.

Correction SPQR
Yes. Spot-on.
Ah and don't bother trying to explain it to Poirot she would NOT *WANT* to understand anyway.

Golly-gee, you guys are a hoot.

runner,

How would you like it if I said:

"Christians are not the problem - it's the religion they follow that's the problem"?

Makes as much sense as rehctub's assertion.

Anyone watch that show last night with that Jenny sheilah & the young Muslim fanatic ?
Talk about fruitcake, this one has icing as well, what an indoctrinated silly young kid.
When asked about feeling any sort of connection with Australia he waffled on about how his loyalty lies in Syria. Well, why is he not deported this morning especially after warning that Australia has some troublesome time to look forward to from these indoctrinated mutts.
Can you believe they're homegrown here ? Thank you Labor.

Poirot: How would you like it if I said: "Christians are not the problem - it's the religion they follow that's the problem"?

You would probably get an "A bloody MEN" from most people.

The problem is that extremists and
fanatics don't follow their religious
teachings they either ignore the teachings,
or follow their own selective interpretations of
those teachings.

Fundamentalist revivals in
whatever religion, take place
in times when social changes have led to turmoil,
uncertainity, and the erosion of familiar values.
When people find themselves confused,
threatened, or even appalled at changing conditions.

Poirot, in runners case I don't think its particularly the religion thats the problem. Its and excuse for a very hate filled person to use rather than the cause in my view.

On the broader topic I think its a mix between socisl problems and religion providing a common rallying cry and a "higher authority" to hide behind to excuse behaviours that would be impossible to justify otherwise.

R0bert

Yes, RObert,

That was my point.

Identify and singling out people by their religion - and then saying the religiously identified person is the problem but not the actual religion - doesn't make sense.

Seems it makes sense to a few around here, though.

To be expected I suppose : )

Yvonne, Of course there are moderate Muslims and “Muslim people are not all the same” Well, yes and no. The often quoted refrains “its only a few radicals” and “most Muslims are peaceful” only apply if we define “peaceful” to mean ‘not killers’. Yes, most Muslims don’t kill, but they accept the hate, discrimination, slander and violence in the Quran and they have no problem with the evil deeds of their dear prophet against innocent men women and children. The words “I am made victorious with terror” in the hadith do not bother them.

Take Muslims in Indonesia and Malaysia, for example, they accept the legal and social discrimination against nfidels. They do not speak out for freedom of conscience, speech or religion. They are typical Muslims; they are peaceful (mostly) but their values are not those of the West and Australia – that is why they are so easily manipulated and controlled by the radicals, who have the Quran and hadith on their side. Google “Birmingham schools UK and Trojan horse” to see how the average Muslim acts when he gets power over infidels. If they have to choose between our basic liberties, on one side, and the words of Allah and Mohammad, on the other, it is ‘adios’ freedom. That is why the word “Islamic” is basically interchangeable with “repressive”, at least in the 50plus countries considered Muslim. Do the math.

I also think it is safe to say that if the words written by a dozen or so people here in this post were spoken in a public square in Islamic societies, our heads would join those held by the little boy and his father in Syria. Oh yes, the barbaric doings of Boko Haram and ISIS are nothing more then those ordered by Allah in the Quran and practiced by Mohammad, per Islam’s own writings.

If you still believe that Muslims, in number, can live in peace with those “lower than animals” (ie, non-Muslims in case you haven’t read the Quran) then you need to wake up and smell the coffee, as they say.

Sorry Piorot, but you have asked for it. You are becoming a joke. Might be best to quit while you are not ahead.

Christians are not the problem - it's the religion they follow that's the problem"?

Well, no. Christanity ( modern day) does not condone beheading or the belittling of women to the best of my knowledge, so there's a huge difference.

A few replies….

SonofGloin. I had to Google your name. A good post – obviously a subject of concern and passion.
SteeleRedux, whatever the sins of the other abrahamic religions, they pale in comparison to Islam, at least in our times.
OntheBeach, oh yes, great novel – read it maybe 50 years ago
Poirot – the men women and children of gaza would not be blown to smithereens if hamas didn’t hide behind them. The value of life in Islam is a poor second to killing others (Quran 9:111)
What is this, we are on a literary roll…
Kactuz, oh, that’s me, no comment.
SPQR, I love roman history – at one time I could rattle off the names of most emperors between Julius and Constantine, but now I have little time and less inclination for idle pleasures including OLO. Just staying on the upper side of the grass is a chore.
Hasbeen – I share your views on religion, all religions, some more than others.
Bazz – Some fear and loathing is more than justified – when the issue is evil.
Foxy - yes, blame evil on those who do it AND those that support it, directly or indirectly, actively and passively. The fanatics and radicals DO follow Islam’s teachings – they quote the Quran accurately, thankyouverymuch.
JayB -- I, too, have asked Muslims about quranic verses and passages in the hadith, and the answers were not very encouraging. It is easier to get water out of a rock than to get a Muslim to condemn Mohammad, no matter the atrocities listed in their own histories.

Steele, again. Good to see you do research. The trouble with us prophets is that we are usually wrong. I guess mini-riots, thousands of cars burned and “no go” areas in Europe don’t count as riots to the extent that I thought would happen, but it is just a matter of time. I don’t mind being wrong, in fact, because I am cynical and pessimistic by nature, it is nice to be wrong.

Great to see so many old OLO users….

The father with the son holding the head of an Iraqi Soldier was from the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney the same Mosque as Kayser Trad who is supposed to be Moderate. Where did this guy get his radicalization from?I would second guess that the head of the Iraqi soldier in the picture was also Islamic. ISIS is just a terrorist organisation that uses practices similar to Mohamed to enforce a Muslim State. Beheading of religious difference is not a new precedent of history for Islam.

rehctub,

"Well, no. Christanity ( modern day) does not condone beheading or the belittling of women to the best of my knowledge, so there's a huge difference."

You still don't get it.

If you are going to identify and classify people according to their religion, whether it be Muslims, Jews or Christians...how can you say it's not them - but their religion.

By definition you are amalgamating the people and their religion into one entity.

In the one breath you are claiming that entity is not the problem - then in the next you are saying it is.

Following on from Kactuz, it is worth looking at the basically PC word "Muslim" for Moslem. A good reason for choosing the correct term Moslem is spelled out by the American Center for Nonproliferation Studies [1]:

"Moslem and Muslim are basically two different spellings for the same word. But the seemingly arbitrary choice of spellings is a sensitive subject for many followers of Islam. Whereas for most English speakers, the two words are synonymous in meaning, the Arabic roots of the two words are very different. A Muslim in Arabic means 'one who gives himself to God,' and is by definition, someone who adheres to Islam. By contrast, a Moslem in Arabic means 'one who is evil and unjust' when the word is pronounced, as it is in English, Mozlem with a z."

The reason for favouring the choice of "Moslem" with the above meaning will be canvassed in a further post (below) on taqiyya and the core vs sugar coating dichotomy.

[1] http://hnn.us/article/524 (also read the comments)

If you'd all watched the video I posted you'd understand the issue, heck it's not as if there's not enough material available in English these days.
In 2014 the difference between "radical" and "moderate" Islam is about the same as the difference in the practices of Methodists and Catholics or the difference between Hillsong and Catch The Fire...ie practically none.
In Islam nothing can contradict the Koran, it's not open to interpretation, the Prophet's motives and his actions were examined and all disputes on the matter settled by the people who'd known him personally and fought at his side.
ISIL are the "real" Muslims as far as we are concerned, the people who disagree with them or "go along to get along" with the Abbott government should not be taken seriously.
Now come on Lefties, are Muslims who co-operate with the coalition government good guys or are they just as cynical and corrupt as Abbott and co? Abbott takes his orders from the ECAJ, the sole purpose of the Australian government is to support Israel so how could an honest Muslim possibly ally themselves with his government?
More to the point any Muslim who would co-operate with Labor or the Greens is clearly an apostate and has no business speaking on behalf of Islam.

A person can be hyper-religious without being a problem to herself or others.

That the person might criticise the morals of the broader community is inconvenient at times. In her austere and rigid belief there can be inconvenient awakenings for us, areas where we prefer not to think about it. Because there are ethical deficiencies and complexities we would prefer to avoid thinking about. We don't like being reminded either. That is cowardly of us and we may criticise and turn on the religious adherent in defence.

Abortion offers examples where we the main population might prefer not to think about it or even suggest any investigation, where (say) the number of abortions far exceeds what was predicted, or where there is an unexpected spike in a sector where we might have predicted fewer. Many prefer simplicity(sic), and life's complexities and grey areas hurt their brain.

There are religions and even branches of religions that are known to harm adherents and maybe even the broader population. We would usually refer to them as cults. As well, there are beliefs that are not usually described as religions that are cults too.

Considering Australia's democratic traditions, culture and traditions, is Islam counter-, revolutionary and possibly terrorist? Does the creed seek to overthrow Australian values? Should Islam be treated any differently from religions that are already regarded as cults, or at least negative influences, in Australia? It isn't sufficient to declare that a religion is for 'love' and 'peace', where the care owed to the teachings is to be separate from the community or to kill.

It is incontrovertible that Islam is home for many hyper-religious.

Hyper-religious + toxic religion = problems sometime.

Should Islam be regarded as a toxic religion deserving cult status in western democracies? False teachings or the brand itself?

In the interests of discussion..

It is very easy, like getting soused on a quart of Glen Fiddich, to find calls to kill the opposition in the Koran, but where are there like calls in Christianity?

In the "interests of discussion," the following
link even though an old one - is worth a read,
as its still relevant today:

http://www.uniya.org/talks/saeed_jss03.html

Dear SPQR,

Google is your friend and does a great job on past OLO posts. Many of those re Saudi Arabia were done under csteele. Go for it.

Dear Kacutz;

You wrote; “SteeleRedux, whatever the sins of the other abrahamic religions, they pale in comparison to Islam, at least in our times.”

Tell me is WW2 included in the term our times? Is the rape camps and genocide committed by the Christian Serbs included. Is the calls for slaughter from the pulpits of what is widely regarded as the most Christianised nations Rwanda included? Or what about what is currently underway in the Central African Republic?

Quote

“The macabre scene in an area known as PK5 has become almost commonplace in Bangui, the humid and decaying capital of the Central African Republic (CAR), where Muslims are under siege. It has also been played out in towns and villages in the west of the country, redrawing the demographic map.

Muslims came here to trade in the early 19th century and made up 15% of the CAR's population a year ago, but since then untold thousands have been killed or displaced or have fled to neighbouring countries. The UN said last week that while 130,000 to 145,000 Muslims normally lived in the capital, Bangui, the population had been reduced to around 10,000 in December and now stood at just 900.
Amnesty International has called it "ethnic cleansing" and warned of a "Muslim exodus of historic proportions".

As Africa prepares to mark next month's 20th anniversaries of the Rwandan genocide and the end of South African apartheid, what is happening in this long-neglected state is a reminder that forgiveness and reconciliation are easy words but hewn from rock over generations. Christian militias freely admit that theirs is an exercise in vengeance, an eye for an eye, and they will not stop until they have "cleaned" the country of Muslims. On Monday, UN human rights investigators in CAR announced they would investigate reports of genocide.

End quote.

The Guardian

You tell me what period you would like to discuss.

Josephus I've got the impression that Lakemba Mosque is at the heart of anti-western attitudes amongst muslims in Australia.

Those involved in the attacks on Skips in the lead up to the Cronulla riot appear to have been associated with it. Hilali was as far as I'm aware based there (http://www.abc.net.au/sundayprofile/stories/s1868267.htm for an ABC take on some of his stuff).

The original disappeared a long time ago but while it was still on line on an Australian Islamic site I posted a quote and reference on OLO to a speech by Keyser Trad in which he said something like "The criminal dregs of white society colonised this country and...the descendents of these criminal dregs tell us that they are better than us." (something like being I can't be sure they were the exact words but close enough to use the quote from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keysar_Trad#cite_note-5

Not sure I want to say more on my views on Trad because of the legal risks.

I've had female friends who have copped harassment from groups of men with what appears to them to be a Lebanese appearance but locally joggers have been hassled by anglo looking guys as well.

R0bert

Poirot>> If you are going to identify and classify people according to their religion, whether it be Muslims, Jews or Christians...how can you say it's not them - but their religion.<<

P, a few contributors have pointed out the duplicity in the "nature" of Muslims.....uni educated , living in a first world nation, but carrying the ethos of a 7th century religion.

The Shakespear line of "If you prick us, do we not bleed" examples the quandry over "moderate" Muslims. We know they have a humanity, but we know they have a zealous religion, so is it the religion that is zealous or the congregation?

If we use the "people’s will" in a correlation between government and religion we find government and religious doctrines running contrary to the beliefs of the majority, and it is not the peoples fault.........but you can change a government, but reformation is another thing. Moderate and sedate now....firebrands under a new regime.

Foxy>> The problem is that extremists and
fanatics don't follow their religious
teachings they either ignore the teachings,
or follow their own selective interpretations of
those teachings.<<

Foxy my dear................the head choppers worshiped at the Lakemba mosque........the Aussie home of moderate Islam. The religion needs reformation, and it seems that no matter how first worldy Muslims become they are still living in a primitive state of mind due to Islam

sonofgloin,

"P, a few contributors have pointed out the duplicity in the "nature" of Muslims.....uni educated , living in a first world nation, but carrying the ethos of a 7th century religion."

Gawd!

Can't you see my point..it's not about the intrinsic nature of Muslims - or any religious persuasion.

It's about the stupidity of a comment where the first part of the proposition cancels out the second.

The religion isn't an entity by and in itself. It's "nothing" without the people who practice it - (any religion, not just Muslims)

To say:

"Muslims are not the problem, it's the religion they follow that's the problem...."

So rehctub is saying that "Muslims" - ie, those who follow and practice the Muslim religion - aren't the problem...it's the religion that is the problem.

Can't you see what gobbledygook rehctub's sentence is?

Sheesh!

Steele,

Quoting the Guardians sanitized version:

<< the Central African Republic (CAR), where Muslims are under siege. ...Muslims came here to trade in the early 19th century...[and all was well till those nasty Christians attacked the peace loving Muslims for no reason] >>!

But here is more balanced view of what happened --and why:
"When Muslim Seleka rebels of the Central African Republic's [C.A.R.] swept south to seize the capital city, Bangui, and ousted the Christian President Francois Bozize in March, 2013,[1] the event received sparse attention in Western media. What the media still seems unwilling to see is that the Seleka onslaught is unwittingly serving a wider offensive by Muslim extremists to expand the realm of Islam into the African continent's sub-Saharan interior."

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4150/central-african-republic-islam#

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Robert,
The Lebanese problem is a racial issue, it's not the same as the broader issue of Islam, there are 400,000 Muslims in Australia, not even a quarter of them are Lebanese.
The Lebanese gangs are styled after the Hollywood gangster films and music, their influences come from Hip Hop, not Hadith.

Misanthropy is misanthropy is misanthropy. A common device of misanthropes and "useful idiots" is to justify their brand of misanthropy by framing the question in terms of a mythical pair of kitchen scales. Thus they can counter your attack on this or that brand of misanthropy by weighing it against a carefully chosen alternative brand and proclaiming (or merely implying) that you can't attack the one without exculpating the other.

Thus when Zionist racism is under attack the Zionist riposte is to try to switch the debate to one about Islam, or Hamas. If Islam is under attack the tame dhimmis usually reply with an attack on Christianity (or the feudal imitation of Christianity), or on something in the Old Testament.

However for the most revealing critique of one breed of misanthropy it is instructive to see what a rival breed says about it. In this context, an excellent description of Islam, its core commitment to jihad and its strategy of "taqiyya" (self-righteous lying favoured by PC dhimmis and integrated in the structure of the Koran) I would thoroughly recommend the Zionist critique at

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war.

sonofgloin,

Moderate Muslim? I guess all things are relative. I prefer to call them inactive Muslims. Just little bit of squeeze and intimidation and they will be activated.

In the west we promote the separation of church and state. Islam has no such distinctions. It is a “bound” religious, political, law enforcement, judicial, social and economic “state” in whatever country it resides.

Islam cannot co-exist with democracy and is why all attempts to democratize Islam have failed.

For those who find it difficult or “ideologically incompatible” to criticize Islam and instead proselytize it’s peace and harmony, just have a look at last months “tally sheet” across Islamic nations, then tell us again how it is everyone else’s fault that Islam behaves like it does?

http://pickeringpost.com/story/dear-mr-marles/3653

I suspect I'm different in that I grew up, as did my parents, with Muslims. I had friends throughout my childhood and now in Australia have friends, who are Muslim.

If any of you are genuinely interested read the whole link I post.
http://vridar.org/2013/05/01/why-havent-muslims-condemned-terrorism/

And Steele has touched on a major sore in the ME: Saudi Arabia. A few years ago I watched an excellent documentary from Netherlands/Belgium where a reporter went through a number of ME countries and spoke with ordinary people and government officials on Islam. The interview with the Minister for Interior in Iran was a revelation. He named Saudi Arabia with its Wahhabism as the major threat to the Middle East and the spreader of evil. Israel didn't get a mention.

And below is another link. Lastly compiled July 20 2014 providing links to condemnation by Muslim organisations and leaders.

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muslim_voices_against_extremism_and_terrorism_part_i_fatwas/

Just because you don't read any in the Murdoch press doesn't mean there aren't any.

Whatever political or religious flavour we are, we must stop reacting to dog-whistling. For politicians and political entities it is the easiest trick in the book to control a population through fear. Read up on Fear Management!
http://www.icct.nl/download/file/ICCT-Bakker-de-Graaf-Towards-A-Theory-of-Fear-Management-in-CT-January-2014.pdf

the total failure of the Immigration department not to discriminate against people with a totally opposite geo political view to the West has again sent the leftist in total denial. They would rather defend the indefensible than swallow their rotten pride and open their eyes to the mess they have created. All people are made in the image of God but not all cultures are equal. The fools in Europe must be rejoicing that with 50 million muslims that 80% are on welfare. How dumb can you be and still breathe. All our gutless pollies can do is say Islam is a religion of 'peace'. Pathetic.

EmperorJulian, that was very interesting about the Muslim vs Moslem. I have wondered why the spelling changed. So Muslim is a actually a euphemism in spelling.

Spindoc - yes, I'm thinking the same - just a squeeze (Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde syndrome)or at least when they feel empowered.

I came across CNN footage of the current turmoil in Iraq and this interview with a fleeing Yazidis university student, Jamil Jamir:

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/08/world/meast/iraq-yazidi-people/

Jamil says (with a surprised expression) our neighbours, Arabs, they kill us also.

This reminds me what a Lebanese Aussie friend of mine with an Assyrian background has told me. "When the war broke out in Lebanon, his father's Muslim fellow market worker who he had been friendly with told him, “we want you all (Christians) to fall off the edge of the ocean”.

Yvonne,
Go to Google Images & type in beheadings in Syria.

Poirot>> Gawd........sheesh......<<

P I love your turn of phrase.

Spindoc>>. I prefer to call them inactive Muslims. Just little bit of squeeze and intimidation and they will be activated.<<

Spindoc, I love your turn of phrase......

When you preach "racism" as policy by targeting certain sections of the community, there is a great danger that children will get the message that hate speak is acceptable.
Here in Sydney last week we had the disgrace off several youths, male students from a well heeled Eastern Suburbs school, boarding a public school bus filled with primary aged kids from two local Jewish schools. These youths abused the little kids with racist anti-Semitic taunts, including threats to cut the throats of the children.
If our leadership pushes overt racism as a tool for political gain, what else can you expect from children.
Police interviewed 6 male youths, aged 14 to 17 about the incident, as yet no charges have been laid. Good to see the 3 local members condemn the the whole affair. Ron Hoenig State Labor, Bruce Notley-Smith State Liberal and Matt Thistlewaite, Federal Labor.
My son often drives the 660 school bus and said these little kids are a good bunch, well behaved all the time. He can't say the same for some of the smart A's from some better off private high schools, who also catch the bus.

"Poirot>> Gawd........sheesh......<<
P I love your turn of phrase.[sonofgloin]"

Whaaaaaat?

That is a "turn of phrase"!

More like a series of animal noises or maybe it's just WesternAustralianese!

Yvonne,
Sure plenty of Moslems were shocked by 9/11 and made comments against
the perpetrators.
They were concerned and afraid of a backlash.
However nothing was done to stop further acts. It had all the sounds of tut tutting.
Then followed by protests about the invasion of Afghanistan.
What on earth did they expect ?

Somehow to me the words against the 9/11, the 7/7, the embassy
bombings and Bali, etc etc seemed half hearted and just words.
Why didn't any Moslem country take part in attacking the Taliban ?

You don't even need to answer that.

Poirot, I'm not identifying people by their religion, I'm identifying that while ever this religion exists, there will always be terrorists who also feed from it, simply because even their own leaders can't find a way to stop these types from drawing their violence from within the religion.

In my view there are two ways to fix a problem, one, you draw people away from something, or two, you remove the cause, which in this case is the religion.

Despite our governmentS pleas to the Australian muslim leaders, way one hasn't worked.

Rehctub>>because even their own leaders can't find a way to stop these types from drawing their violence from within the religion.<<

Butch the Australian Grand Mufti Professor Ibrahim Abu Mohamed said "If it wasn't for our effort, there could have been 1500, not 150 fighters in Syria”

This is the same Grand Mufti who last week along with the Australian National Imams Council staged a protest over the Government's new anti-terror measures by not attending the annual Federal Police dinner marking the Eid religious festival.

Thanks for nothing chief............

As Spindoc said, “I prefer to call them inactive Muslims. Just little bit of squeeze and intimidation and they will be activated.”

I have never before painted any group with one brush.........but I am looking at all Muslims as a present or future adversary..........I am now looking at them as they and their fooked religion look at me.

Bazz>>Sure plenty of Moslems were shocked by 9/11 and made comments against the perpetrators<<

Bazz 9/11 stinks....If I was Muslim I would not be appologizing over that one....

Argghhh, not another Arjay !

Paul, that's the point that many don't get, or want to get, that when hate speech becomes 'acceptable', because 'free speech' more and more of these incidents happen, because there will always be stupid people who will act out on other people's hatred.

Bazz, As to condemning despicable acts, have you heard condemnation from the leadership of what has, and is still happening, in the various churches, Jewish colleges, Salvation Army etc.? No, there is none. There is no removal of the leadership. In spite of this, these organizations still seem to be able to recruit new members, who are apparently quite OK with what the leadership and some members of their religions are doing. You do not seem to expect a mass exodus of members. I did.

I saw the Manny Waks documentary. His parents, his mother and father!, where shunned by their community, because Manny Waks spoke out. Here in Australia. They have now left Australia. This in spite of perpetrators being found guilty and now in jail vindicating Manny Waks and other victims accusations. Unbelievable.

Can't even find a link of world wide vocal criticism and condemnation by any of the leadership of Western Christian Churches, in spite of all the evidence. And they would have no problem whatsoever getting airtime or newspaper time in a local rag like the Australian.

It's slavish cult like following that's dangerous. What we need to know is why would anybody want to be part of a cult. Which ever one that is.

Rechtub is right in seeing the problem. He is wrong in his conclusion. As much as I would like a world free of religion, it is not going to happen any time soon. Only in some parts of Western Europe is religion disappearing, where basically life is safe and good and people are empowered to make choices.

Yvonne, "Paul, that's the point that many don't get, or want to get, that when hate speech becomes 'acceptable', because 'free speech' more and more of these incidents happen.."

That is not true. You have it @rse up as they say.

In fact it was the freedom of speech that was very hard won in the Sixties to get rid of the strong censorship that applied in the Fifties and before, that enabled and facilitated the human rights movement and specifically black rights.

The fight against censorship went hand in hand with the quest for more enlightened, tolerant attitudes to human behaviour.

Censorship is an abomination and political correctness is a scourge.

I agree with what you are saying yvonne. Wonder if you saw the Frontline documentary "Secrets of the Vatican" about fortnite ago on SBS? Most disturbing to hear the story of the woman raped as a child and, while bleeding, was told by paedophile rapist as he buckled his trousers "This is YOUR fault. YOU must do penance. If you speak of this to anyone your parents will burn in hell for eternity."

While it is very difficult and traumatic for victims to speak up (and so brave of them) there is a tacit acceptance by the sheep when they do/say nothing about the knowledge of these vile crimes. As one interviewee said, "There is a single method of dealing with complaints. Its called intimidation. Intimidation is the only plan."

Those who ascribe to theses cults and their crimes are guilty.

Further - and in the vien of this thread, on Q&A last Monday, the Canadian theologist vetoed the female MP's assertion that Islam "is a peaceful religion." He said, "It is not a peaceful religion," adding that you are either a follower of islam or you are to be wiped out, there is no moderation of the koran.

rehctub,

"Poirot, I'm not identifying people by their religion, I'm identifying that while ever this religion exists, there will always be terrorists who also feed from it, simply because even their own leaders can't find a way to stop these types from drawing their violence from within the religion."

I'm actually being pedantic...and if your refer to people as "Muslims"..then you are identifying them by their religion...and you did it again in your last post.

I'm not picking at that. We all refer to people by their religion if we wish to make a point about a certain religion. Just as if we refer to people as Christian or Jewish, then we identify them by their religion.

My point was that "religion" is not a thing in itself. It has no meaning or impact if it is not followed and practiced by people.

It's a "belief" system.

To say Muslims (or Christians or Jews, for example) "aren't" the problem...but their religion "is" doesn't make sense.

The thing you don't like about Muslims is their religion - you think that's the problem. But Muslims are the very embodiment of Islam. So how can you make sense of the statement "Muslims are not the problem, it's the religion they follow that's the problem...."?

If you believe Islam is the problem - then Muslims must be too. You can't separate those who practice the religion from the religion itself.

I read an interesting article by Virginia Trioli,
in this week's "The Weekly Review," 13th August, 2014,
page 3:

"Turns out we don't have the right to be bigots
after all. The Federal Government has abandoned
its crusade to repeal Section 18C of the Racial
Discrimintation Act. Columnists who want to offend
someone about their race will now have to make sure
they get their facts straight, and there's no
legislation to make sure they do that."

"Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act makes it
unlawful for someone to do an act that is reasonably
likely to "offend, insult, humiliate, or intimidate"
someone because of their race or ethnicity."

"The question that those arguing for its repeal never
managed to answer was what did they want to be able to
say that they couldn't say now?"

"In other words - what problem would the repeal fix?"

The worries of those who saw a greater problem with
unstitching the legilsation were clear: if everyone had
the righ to be a bigot, just imagine what would be said
and written when bigots declared open season. But the
advantage created by removing the sanctions was never made
clear. The rhetoric was always powerful - dangerous
restrictions on free speech, trampled liberties, et cetera -
but the solid examples were scarce.

As Trioli tells us: - "The morning after the decision to
abandon the repeal was announced the man at the centre of the
legislative row, Andrew Bolt, could still only come up
with two examples of "banned" speech for his comment
piece that day, and they were the columns that got him into
trouble in the first place - columns described by
Justice Bromberg in his 2011 finding against Bolt for
breaching the Racial Discrimination Act as containing "errors
of fact, distortions of the truth and inflammatory and
provocative language."

While Section 18C makes it an offense to offend, insult,
et cetera, the bit straight after it. Section 18D, gives
us all a way out: this is the guarantee protecting
freedom of speech.

TBC...

Poirot I think I get a point that makes some sense to me in that.

My take on it, people are generally people, most good or at least no threat, some bad. The behaviours of groups in different parts of the world and at different times are not all roughly the same though. They are impacted by cultural, political and religious values that impact on that group sometimes in extreme ways.

Think of the nations and cultures that have gone to extremism for a period and the fact that those nations and cultures were mostly comprised of normal people linked by some dangerous common denominator. Those within the group who have not shared the extremism have mostly either gone along with it or died for a stand against it. At the risk of invoking Godwin's law Germany is not a bad place to start for that reflection, nothing wrong with most of the people but a combination of factors and great evil was done by a nation who generally have been a great people.

Islam as a religion provides a focus for a group identity that is hateful to those outside the group. It appears to justify and when combined with other pressures encourage thinking and actions that constitute a threat to those not of the right brand of that faith.

Without the religion (and I don't think that we can take it away) the people would probably be a normal human spread of humanity. The point of concern is that the religion in it's present form appears to be a common factor for great extremism in it's followers. That's helped along by agitation from various groups both nominal friend and foe of the faith.

R0bert

cont'd ...

Trioli continues:

"Let me just say that again, because the ideological
warriors in this fight have conveniently ignored this
crucial section. This section protects freedom of
speech. Under our laws we all have a defence for our
insulting: if you are engaged in artistic works,
scientific debate and fair comment on matter of public
interest, you can vent to your heart's content
providing what you do is said or done reasonably and in
good faith. That's why Bolt couldn't rely on this
protection for his columns. The judge found that through
his errors and inflammatory language Bolt had not acted
in good faith."

"It bears noting - for this truly is the straw man at the
centre of this high-falutin' row - that Bolt probably
could have got away with almost everything he wrote in
those strangely skin-colour-obsessed columns if he had
just done one thing a good journalist is required to do -
get his facts straight."

"But let's return to the problem that this repeal was
supposed to solve: what con't you say right now because
of 18C?"

"This argument, such as it is, seemed to be made even weaker
when Bolt had another go the next day at arguing his corner.
His lament was that once upon a time he could have denounced
someone and "in perfect safety drawn links between his
faith and his bigotry. I could have wandered whether we
were safe, importing so many people from such a culture."

"Once he could have done this? Seems to me this columnist
just managed to say now what he said he couldn't."

"Situation normal: everyone go back to your homes."

BTW ; If the first words out of your mouth are to always
cry "Political Correctness," chances are very, very, high that
you are in fact part of the problem!

Here is another link that may be of interest:

http://newmatilda.com/2014/08/14/explainer-who-isis-where-are-they-and-why-are-they-fighting

For some time now education has been taking over from religion in Australia but in the middle east religion is the preferred brainwashing medium.

Foxy, wasn't Bolt's error of fact that the complainant's grandfather
was German rather than her Great Grandfather was German ? or vice versa ?

I am saying that from memory.

Foxy, that photo of the boy holding the head is a close up with not
much else in the photo.
I came across other photos in the same area. The background is the
same and the fence is the same. Placed on the fence just above and to
the right and left of the boys position there is a row of about 20
heads stuck up on the fence.

On the same site was a cleric conducting a class in how to behead captives.

It is hard to imagine what effect it will have on that boy.
I see his mother's father wants the boys returned to Australia.
This the best case for the removal of children from the parents that I have seen.
Not much chance of that I am afraid. If the IS is over run it might
be possible to extract them.

Dear Bazz,

Andrew Bolt has admitted that he got some facts wrong.

He claimed academic Larissa Behrendt that she -

"has also worked as a professional Aborigine ever
since leaving Harvard Law School, despite looking
almost as German as her father."

And in typically snide Boltism he wrote that
Behrendt -

"is often interviewed demanding special rights for
"my people." But which people are "yours," exactly
mein liebchen?"

Behrendt's father was born in Australia to an
Aboriginal mother.

If Behrendt had been suing Bolt for defamation - that
mistake would have cost News Ltd a lot of money.

And this wasn't the only inaccuracy that Bolt had
made by a long chalk.

As for the young child involving in that dreadful extremism
of his father. I, like you hope that the child
can be saved. Dreadful, dreadful situation.

Bazz,
Google images has quite a number of theose hideous pictures. These people have lost their right to be seen as human beings & should not be afforded any civility whatsoever when caught.
Unfortunately though I can already envisage our Lawyers rubbing their hands with glee.

Individual,

<<Google images has quite a number of theose hideous pictures>>

I wonder how long before the Left run the spin that such pics are all the concoction of the CIA or ASIO and ISIS is innocent.

I see the usual suspect has already bombed us with a New Matilda link which --on perusal-- appears to blame the US for everything happening in Iraq.

Not at all, SPQROFLMAO.

I'm sure those pics are grotesque as are the despicable humans who carry out such atrocities.

Got an eyeful of similar mutilations and atrocities recently also on twitter.....untold little kids blown to bits in Gaza.

Why aren't you guys condemning atrocities on all sides?

Yes SPQR, this problem in Iraq was going on before the US was founded.
Indeed it was the reason for the crusades, the European church and
kings were appalled at the stories that they heard about the moslem
invaders slaughtering the Jews and Christians.

Nothing changes does it ?

That is easy Piorot, when the moslems stop firing rockets into Israel
and building tunnels into Israel then it will all stop.
No, I don't have a direct line into the Israeli cabinet, I have just
watched what happened as it happened.
If the rockets stop then Israel would be forced to stop by international opinion.
After all the rockets restarted before the end of the last ceasefire.

I think the present hiatus is not an agreement, just a mutual halt.

Poirot,

Yes. But some sides (Hamas or ISIS)deliberately seek to produce atrocities

Or, seek to use their subjects as shields(Hamas or ISIS) so they can then spruik the pictures of the deaths and injuries for propaganda purposes to impress naive Lefties (Poirot & Paul)

For those who object to "New Matilda,"
links - all I can do is suggest that
you actually read the articles before
judging. Here is another one that presents
a rather balanced view (in my opinion) of the situation:

http://newmatilda.com/2014/08/14/supporting-palestinian-cause-also-means-standing-against-anti-semitism

"Yes. But some sides (Hamas or ISIS)deliberately seek to produce atrocities

Or, seek to use their subjects as shields(Hamas or ISIS) so they can then spruik the pictures of the deaths and injuries for propaganda purposes to impress naive Lefties (Poirot & Paul)"

Or...alternatively...SPQR, just parrots the Israeli spiel line re: Hamas.

So while the UN communicates 17 times to the IDF the exact coordinates of the "designated safe area school"...the IDF chooses to bomb it anyway.

And while the UN communicates 33 times to the IDF the exact coordinates of the "UN designated safe hospital area" the IDF decides to bomb the civilians cowering there...

Ho hum...SPQR blames Hamas for that war crime...which even the US described as "disgraceful".

No empathy for slaughtered kiddies?

Bazz,

"That is easy Piorot, when the moslems stop firing rockets into Israel
and building tunnels into Israel then it will all stop."

Oh yes, it's all so simple isn't it....

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/opinion/gaza-and-israel-the-road-to-war-paved-by-the-west.html?_r=1

"Seeing a region swept by popular protests against leaders who couldn’t provide for their citizens’ basic needs, Hamas opted to give up official control of Gaza rather than risk being overthrown. Despite having won the last elections, in 2006, Hamas decided to transfer formal authority to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah. That decision led to a reconciliation agreement between Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization, on terms set almost entirely by the P.L.O. chairman and Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas.

Israel immediately sought to undermine the reconciliation agreement by preventing Hamas leaders and Gaza residents from obtaining the two most essential benefits of the deal: the payment of salaries to 43,000 civil servants who worked for the Hamas government and continue to administer Gaza under the new one, and the easing of the suffocating border closures imposed by Israel and Egypt that bar most Gazans’ passage to the outside world.

Yet, in many ways, the reconciliation government could have served Israel’s interests. It offered Hamas’s political adversaries a foothold in Gaza; it was formed without a single Hamas member; it retained the same Ramallah-based prime minister, deputy prime ministers, finance minister and foreign minister; and, most important, it pledged to comply with the three conditions for Western aid long demanded by America and its European allies: nonviolence, adherence to past agreements and recognition of Israel."

sonofgloin, one, is ome too many. Forget the 150, or 1500 because just one extremist living in our country is unacceptable.

yvonne, Rehctub here, I don't have an agenda to rid the world of religion, rather, my concerns are this religion, in our country, that's it.

Poirot, whether my terminology is wrong, or not, my point does not change. So long as the religion continues to harbor violence, then it has no place here and we should remove it from our country.

Poirot,

<<So while the UN communicates 17 times to the IDF the exact coordinates of the "designated safe area school"...the IDF chooses to bomb it anyway>>

Oy Poirot, that wasn't one of these schools was it by any chance?

<< the UN has made three separate discoveries of weapons caches in its [Gazan] schools>>
[And the source is The/your Guardian by the way]

There could have been a settlement a long time ago if Hamas had changed
it charter to acknowledge the existence of Israel.
While ever it insists that Israel must be demolished there is no hope
of any sort of a settlement.

Richard the Lionheart could not get an agreement either.
So whats new ?

People have been confronted by stupidity since day 1. The more people the more stupidity.
The Growth activists don't seem to comprehend that, perhaps they're fronm the stupid side ?

Dear Bazz,

Antony Loewenstein has made it quite clear
that in his book, "My Israel Question," : -

"Israel has been calling the shots since 1967,
always without Palestinian consultation and
clearly believes that the USA and its allies
will totally support it. Sadly, once again, the
International community has placed a higher value
on Israel's vision of its historic destiny than on
the humanity of the Palestinians."

"Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but only
one party has the power (military and other) to
end the occupation and to recognise that Israel and
Palestine are historically destined to share the
same homeland."

Foxy you have got your history inverted.
The Arabs are the occupying invaders. The Jews were there for what,
a thousand or two years or more before Christ.
The Arabs were in Arabia where Islam originated 600+ years after Christ.
They invaded what was then Israel and Mesopotamia.
Negotiations are impossible because of what is written in the Koran.
The Jews know that better than anyone.

the power (military and other) to end the occupation
foxy,
I think the occupation is nothing but an excuse to cause trouble. Never having been in those lans I'm totally confident that the Palestinians would be accepted by the Israelis if only they did what other people do. Go about your business without throwing bombs & being stupid for no reason.

Individual said;
& being stupid for no reason.

Oh not for no reason. They are stupid for a very good reason.
Marry your cousins for generation after generation and stupidity is guaranteed.

Just to clear the confusion...I know many good Muslims...then then again...we all have the compactly to think out-side the box.

Yes, thinking....are we the same.....the answer is yes.

I don't spend a lot of time on olo...the times that I do contribute, is on your time.

All the best......

Tally

Dear Bazz,

All I can suggest is that you get hold
of a copy of Antony Loewenstein's book,
"My Israel Question," and read it.
It will put things into their proper
perspective for you. There's an entire
chapter on "Ethnic Cleansing," and what
Israel's aims were from the very beginning.

.I know many good Muslims.
Tally,
So do I ! What most people fail to see is the prospect for this country once the numbers are right. That's what we should be thinking of. Oh yes, it's all nice & cosy now just like the western suburbs used to be when there were only a few refugee families.

SPQR>> I wonder how long before the Left run the spin that such pics are all the concoction of the CIA or ASIO and ISIS is innocent.
I see the New Matilda link which --on perusal-- appears to blame the US for everything happening in Iraq<<

SPQR, you are no dill, but surely you can see the US Administration is driven by the Military Industrial complex and the European Banking Cartel. All decisions made and actions taken are corporate decisions, There is a monetary outcome to the majority of US military deployments.

There are still strategic geopolitical deployments of advisers or troops such as in Ukraine........but with Hunter Biden joining the board of Ukraine’s largest private-gas producer in May 2014, they are now openly mixing geopolitics with profit.

SPQR......when it comes to the American Administration there are no white hats, black hats anymore...perhaps there never were....it was all a Hollywood fiction fed to the blind and willing.

fiction fed to the blind and willing.
sonofgloin,
Sounds more like the ALP than the US.

Bazz writes (snipped):

"*The Arabs are the occupying invaders.
*The Jews were there for what,a thousand or two years or more before Christ.
*The Arabs were in Arabia where Islam originated 600+ years after Christ.
*They invaded what was then Israel and Mesopotamia.
*Negotiations are impossible because of what is written in the Koran.
*The Jews know that better than anyone."

What racist twaddle!

PEOPLE were in Palestine for all that time. Some were Jews or could have been. If Arabs entered Palestine they may have come as ethnic cleansing monsters (i.e. imposing a Nakba of their own like today's Zionists)or even worse like the mythical "Children of Israel" [1] or today's Zionists, or as independent settlers like everyone else. God didn't give any race sole occupancy of the land (a notion that is as racist as it is blasphemous) Whatever, everyone who was alive at the time is now dust.

The racist arrogance at the core of Bazz' comments and those of the rest of the organised Zionist clamour group is the assumption that we goyim, i.e. practically all of humanity, including decent non-racist ("self-hating"!) Jews must take on board (or otherwise be libelled as "Jew haters") is that the story of Palestine and ultimately the story of the world is the story of "the Jews" as chosen by God to be overlords.

The proper alternative is the total rejection of this arrogant racism, and dismantling of structures built on it or anything like it such as Israel, or the German Third Reich, or Boer overlordship in South Africa or ethnically specified Übermenschen anywhere in the world.

[1] E.g. see http://www.adath-shalom.ca/commandment_genocide.htm
and http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/20-17.ht

URL correction:

"http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/20-17.ht" should be http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/20-17.htm

Sorry about that.

Poirot < As I mentioned, I've just watched a week or so of Israel slaughtering tiny tots.>

I do not believe there has been one Israeli rocket purposely fired at civilians with the purpose of killing women and children.

Why no mention of Hamas deploying their rocket launchers next door to hospitals and UN 'safe havens'? Why no mention of which side continually breaks the temporary truces or has spent peace time building numerous tunnels to attack the other side? In fact why no denouncement of Hamas full stop. If you would show some awareness that Hamas is the reason the bombs are falling in Gaza, your pleas for mercy from the Israelis might be better received.

You polarise people with your blinkered approach, as do some of the others with opposing views. Unfortunately, because we hardly ever see important Muslim leaders (or Countries) openly denouncing Muslim terrorists, it gives the impression Muslims as a whole are leaving it to the Western countries to resolve, which is something they also don't support.

The Boka Harams and ISIS type organisations need to be systematically wiped off the planet, regardless of which religion they claim to be promoting. There should be no place for barbarism in this day and age.

The problem of Zionism:

"There was a strong element of self-righteousness and
short-sightedness in the early Zionists and they
overlooked the presence of the Arab population and its
significance. They had the self-righteousness of victims
preoccupied with their own victimisation to the degree that
they could not even imagine that they could commit any kind
of injustice to another."

(Amos Oz. 2004)

"Criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile.
But singling out Israel for opprobrium and international
sanction - out of all proportion to any other party in the
Middle East- is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

(Thomas Friedman, 2002).

@Foxy,

Here's a better rending of your quote:

There was a strong element of self-righteousness and
short-sightedness in [modern day Muslims & their camp-followers] they
overlooked the presence of the [infidel population] and its
significance [wherever they come to domionate]. [And] they
[have] the self-righteousness of victims preoccupied with their
own victimisation to the degree that they could not even imagine that they could commit any kind of injustice to another."

What do you call a one-eyed fox? A Slyclops.

Dear ConservativeHippie,

Even the White House has openly condemned Israel's
artillery strike on a UN girls' school in which
sleeping children were killed. Describing the shelling
of the school sheltering 3300 displaced Palestinians as
"totally unacceptable and totally indefensible."
It was one of the worst
mass casualty attacks of the three-week war and the
sixth time a UN school in Gaza has been hit. "The world stands
disgraced, this is an affront to all of us, a source of
universal shame." The Gaza Health Ministry says the
Palestinian death toll since fighting began and the number
of wounded has now risen to over 8295, while human-rights
groups say 80 per cent of the dead and injured are civilians.

Gaza's Housing Ministry's initial estimate on the damage caused
by the Israeli Defence Forces' operations is about $US 4 billion
($4.3 billion) and more than 5,328 buildings had been destroyed.

Since the start of "Operation Protective Edge" 63 Israeli
Defence Force soldiers have been killed.

The statistics speak for themselves in this sad state of
affairs as to who wields the power.

Moderate Muslim.

The greatest oxymoron of all time.

Dear SPQR,

You're out of your league here mate!
Take your colouring pencils and go
sit in the naughty-corner!

cont'd ...

Dear SPQR,

You've got a cheek desribing anyone as being
"one-eyed,"
You're so narrow-minded you can see through
keyholes with both eyes!
;-)

All of you insane superfairy worshiping fools are the same.
Your religion whether it is judaism, islam or christian is elitist, divisive and hateful. All religions disrespect and hate other sects and unbelievers.
Your "holy" books are nothing more than horror stories written to guide you scum in hurting those that dont believe as you do. Your lies about love and truth and caring are usurped by your hatred and violence and killing. For thousands of years you have been at it.
You are no different.
You are filth and nothing you do or say can change the vile deeds that you and your ilk support and carry out. Muslim, christian, jew. You are all the same.

There is no such thing a a "moderate" godbotherer. They are all stridently antihuman, antiscience and antimodern.
They would all, christian, jew, moslem, have us return to the dark ages of pain and suffering and death.
Forget medicine, forget justice, forget freedom, forget knowledge. Only superstition, dogma and hate exist for these idiotic miscreants.

They will happily unleash armageddon if they think that is what their magic superfriend in the sky wants. Murderous scum that should be locked up to protect the rest of us normal human beings.

@Foxy,

<<You're so narrow-minded you can see through
keyholes with both eyes>>

Yep. My mind is fashioned on the Tardis' architectural principles, small and inconspicuous on/from the outside --but huge and impressive on/from the inside.

Dear SPQR,

Sigh.

You're so playfully artful.

Love it!

When I see young Israeli doctors treating injured children in Gaza and transporting them to hospitals in Jerusalem, I see Israel in its true humanitarian light; compared to Hamas who indiscriminately fired rockets at Israel. One is based in human care for people the other in human hatred.

mikk,
What religion were the Japanese?
What Religion are the Chinese Maoists?
What religion are the North Korean?
What religion were the Russian Communists?
You did not mention their religion in causing the death of millions?

Josephus,
I wonder if they'd have been better off not having a religion ?

One is based in human care for people the other in human hatred.
Josephus,
I wonder what would happen if Israel turned around & offered Palestinians a fair bit of money & security if they dobbed-in Hamas people & handed them to Israel ?
That should stop the bombings in no time at all ?

Dear Josephus,

The Israeli doctors you see helping wounded Palestinian
children in Gaza must find it extremely stressful
in the knoweldge that the injuries of these children
were caused by their fellow countrymen. And yes, it is
a humanitarian thing to do. But it would be even more
humanitarian if the bombing of schools would stop.

Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but only one
party has the power to end the occupation and to recognise
that Israel and Palestine are historically destined to share
the same homeland.

As for what religion were nations that committed atrocities
over the ages?

Wars have produced tens of millions of victims. Some as
combatants, some as civilian casualties, others victims of
genocide planned by the warring powers. There were also,
of course numerous courageous men and women who refused to
participate in the subjugation and destruction of the
targeted groups and individuals. Villians come in a variety of
religions They're all members of nations caught
in merciless war.
No faith, no nationality, no race is completely free of
evil people, extremists, fanatics, cowards, or collaborators.
No group is spared from killers and traitors in their midst.

mikk,

Now just what Christian book has those horror stories in it?

Where did Christ preach murder, rapine, treachery etc?

"The term 'Moderate Islam' is ugly and offensive. There is no moderate Islam. Islam is Islam," according to Turkish PM.

Indiscipline, incivility, binge drinking, drug addiction, gun and knife crimes, teenage pregnancies and abortion are part and parcel of British schooling. These are the reasons why majority of Muslim
parents would like to send their children to Muslim schools with Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental periods. Only less than 5% attend Muslim schools and more than 95% keep on attending state and church schools to be mis-educated and de-educated by non-Muslim monolingual teachers.

British schooling and the British society is the home of institutional racism. The result is that Muslim children are unable to develop self-confidence and self-esteem, therefore, majority of them leaves schools with low grades. Racism is deeply rooted in British society. British schools are not doing enough to tackle racism and promote race relations. Many teachers are unaware of racist attitudes amongst pupils. Schools have a responsibility not only to deal with racist incidents but also to prepare pupils for life in a multicultural and multiracial society. At least one racist incident is reported daily in Bolton schools, according to stats obtained from Bolton Council by Manchurian Matters. Bolton Council of Mosques Manager, Ibrahim Kala, said the data is only the “tip of the iceberg” and that Islamophobia makes up a large portion of the reported incidents. Stats obtained through the Freedom of Information request show 2,397 cases of racism in Bolton schools in the years from 2004 to 2013, meaning on average there are 1.26 racist incidents occur daily – and these are only the ones being reported.

There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school.
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

@Foxy,

<<but only one party has the power to end the occupation and to recognise that Israel and Palestine are historically destined to share
the same homeland.>>

Only one party eh! No doubt written by someone living in the comfort and security of suburban Oz.

Having recently "debated" Palestinian advocates on another thread. The one sure thing that I took away from that debate was that I wouldn't want to live in close proximity to people like that. Now I will allow that I met only a small sample but if they were at all representative-- I wouldn't want to be sharing any homeland with them.

@Iftikhar, Sunday, 17 August 2014 2:49:39 AM

I sincerely hope that British authorities do not give in to your misrepresentations and intolerance.

However you are in with a shot with the self-loathing Left, feminists and political 'Progressives'. Although you would already know that.

Iftikhar,
The British are a complex lot indeed. On one hand they gave so much to science & exploratation but on the other hand their complacency & greed countered all their achievements. Hence the mess they're in now.
Australia is obviously not learning from the british experience & trundles headlong in the same direction. Fortunately though Australia has lots of people from non-british heritage & it'll be those people who will eventually put a stop to the antics of the islamics. Islamics have proven that they can't govern. Look at those previously highly civilised cultures in the lands now occupied by islamics, they've all gone down the drain. Islamics are very effective in destroying everything but utterly hopeless in building up.
I only wished the westerners had the conviction for their society as the islamics have for theirs. That's one field Islamics could teach us something other than mayhem & misery.

Iftikhar, has it ever occurred to you, that if Muslims don't like the mainstream British institutions, they should have stayed where they damn well were. They were presumably happy with the institutions where they came from, or would not want to install them in the UK.

Of course we realise they are, just like they are here in Oz, only there for the welfare.

They can't run a civilisation, & everywhere they go failure & conflict follow.

Rather than allow changes to their institutions, the British should refuse welfare to anyone who can not fill out the necessary forms, personally, in English. That way England might have some chance of remaining a country worth living in. Give in to the demands of these disgusting people, & the Brits have had it.

Dear SPQR,

I'm sure we all have people that we wouldn't want to live
next door to. However broadly speaking - I see Australia's
cultural diversity as a strength which makes for a
dynamic society. Within a framework of our laws all Australians
have the right to express their culture and beliefs. They have
a right to be different, to protect their traditions, to
remember their languages. The concept of "mutual respect"
is important.

Australia can never go back to where it was before white
settlement, where it was in 1901, where it was before
Whitlam and Fraser, and where it was before Mabo.
We are a nation of diversity and all the contradictions that
go with it. Managing these contradictions is our inheritance
today and multiculturalism our best, even if imperfect
guide.

Galaxy polls show most Australians think multiculturalism
works well. A Galaxy poll run exclusively for News Limited
revealed people's attitudes in the run up to Australia Day
last year. One in 10 said multiculturalism worked very well
and made Australia what it is. Migration has made an
enormous contribution to Australia's culture, economy,
and social fabric.

Of course there are a small minority of people -
who want to go back
to the times that saw homogeneity as not only desirable
but mandatory and to which judging from some comments on
this and other discussions on this forum these people would
have us return.

Most Australians however, are overwhelmingly
very tolerant and the majority approve of the benefits of
our diversity. Afterall of Australia's 22 million people
about 44 per cent were either born overseas or one of
both of the parents were born overseas.

Of the thousands of international students studying in
Australia, a significant number are Muslims from
countries such as Malaysia, India and Pakistan. Many have
settled in Australia under the government's "skilled
migration" program after completing studies at their
own expense and are making a great contribution to our
society. Unfortunately we don't get to read about those
very often. The media tends to print what's newsworthy,
rather than what is typical.

Dear Iftikar,

We've covered this many times on this forum.

If anyone wants a special religious teaching
for their children - they should send those children
to special schools. State schools are for everybody -
not any special group. People have a choice when it
comes to their children's education. It is not the
responsibility of any government to provide each and
every person with special education.
That is the responsibility of the parents to do.

In Australia for example, all Australians are free to
follow any religion they choose so long as its
practices do not break any Australian law. Australians
are also free not to follow a religion. We have a
secular government. We have state and private schools,
and parents have a choice of what sort of education
they want to provide for their children.

If you are unhappy with the state of affairs as they
currently exist in England -
concerning the education of Muslim children perhaps you
should contact the leading Muslim Communities in ways
that this problem could be solved. Such as financing
more Muslim Schools being built or - some sort of
"User pays" programs or scholarships at existing Muslim Schools
for Muslim children, and so on. There are solutions to your
problem - but simply complaining about them won't solve
anything for you.

Foxy,
Good sentiments !

Foxy

I don’t think you can talk about what is typical of a faith/culture until you have lived in a society where that faith/culture holds the power ala Baha'i, Zoroastrians or Copts under Islam.With all due respect, what you are doing is merely repeating what the progressive PR machine has feed you.

Multiculturalism as packaged to the public --and brainwashed into school children through nonsense's like harmony days -- is all about colorful street parades and tasty cuisines -who could find fault with that.

But MC also leads to people like Iftikar seeking their own fiefdoms and worse --and contrary to <<the media tends to print what's newsworthy>>. The media is often hamstrung in reporting such things for fear of being branded racist.

If you are for MC --you are for more Iftikar's . There is no escaping that. Please don't confuse the poor guy by giving him mixed messages.

Iftikhar,
I personally just as disgusted by drugs and alcohol used by our society but much of the drugs are coming from Muslim societies that are determined to destroy our youth. We just had a Naval ship return to Sydney after 7 months in the Gulf seizing $2,000,000,000 worth of drugs destined to sale in Western society with funds going to fund Muslim terrorists. As much as I hate drunken slobs in our society I will not exterminate them but endeavor to change their ways and lift them to a better life.

Foxy, Good post!

Iftikhar>> "The term 'Moderate Islam' is ugly and offensive.<<

Iftikhar I will tell you what a non Muslim and detractor of Zionism finds “ugly and offensive”.... Islam as practiced by its offensive devotees..........enemies to the culture and lifestyle I grew up with.......I am declared inferior and worthless because of my non participation in their religion and the Stone Age culture that accompanies it.

Understand Iftikhar I have no sympathy with the Zionist driven American Administration agenda in the Middle East.

Muslims and Zionists are the plague of modern humanity. Zionist Walter Rothschild blackmailed Britain and traded a “homeland” (someone else’s) in exchange for the Rothschild Banking Cartel exerting pressure on the USA to bail the Brits out of World War 1... From that point world peace was doomed in the 20th century.

Your separatist comments offend me:

Iftikhar >> The silent majority of Muslim parents would like to send their children to state funded Muslim schools<<

It seems the over represented Muslim welfare recipients of adopted first world countries want the Christians to pay their kids way.......can’t support them and can’t educate them.

Iftikhar >> They are not extremists who want to change of ethos of those schools where Muslim children are in majority<<

Segregation from the filth that inhabit the nation that was stupid enough to let you in....I take it that is what you are asking for IIfti?

Iftikhar >>It is the politicians and monolingual teachers who are the problems for bilingual pupils<<

The problem is anyone who is not Muslim.

Iftikhar>> There are hundreds of state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority. In my opinion, all such schools may be opted out as Muslim Academies.<<

Why don’t you push for Muslim only bubblers....Muslim only seating area, Muslim only eating areas.........Nazi’s Muslims and Zionists.....elitist swine.

Hasbeen,

".... the British should refuse welfare to anyone who can not fill out the necessary forms, personally, in English.".

Surely you mean people who cannot fill out the forms in a British language?

Sorry to backtrack but I have to make a comment of Mikk's post yesterday (page 23). After launching into a tirade that seemed to be coming from someone boarding on psychotic, Mikk proceeds to describe anyone who is religious as "Murderous scum that should be locked up to protect the rest of us normal human beings."

Mikk, with that much fear and loathing guiding your outlook on life, you are a far cry from a 'normal' human being. Please seek professional help before you hurt yourself or others!

Dear SPQR,

You under-estimate me - my life and my experiences.
You have no way of knowing what I have experienced
what sort of education I have had - or much of
anything else about me. All you're doing is making
assumptions about someone you don't agree with
and who doesn't agree with your take on things.

If you want to exclude people like Iftikar from this
country because he's a Muslim -
you may also be doing this country a great
disservice. You may also be excluding people like
Dr Munjed Al Muderis - who ran from war-torn Iraq
and came to this country as an asylum-seeker -
today he's a miracle worker who fits amputees with
radical robotic limbs. His story was published not
so long ago - "From penniless prisoner to bionic
surgeon." And he achieved his success through his
own hard work, study, and talent and now contributes
greatly to our society. He's not the only immigrant
to do precisely that - which is something that needs
to be remembered when criticising multiculturalism.

http://www.sah.org.au/assets/Files/PDFs/Events%20and%20News/2013%20PDFs/Women's%Weekly%20Nov%202013.pdf

Yikes, Foxy strikes with her false analogies.

Foxy,

Isn't that quote,

<"The term 'Moderate Islam' is ugly and offensive. There is no moderate Islam. Islam is Islam," according to Turkish PM>

contrary to your dogmatism, viz., one of variation?

Does your dogmatism now declare emphatically (as usual) that there are no 'moderate' Muslims, or what? Get Googling..

otb,

I'm afraid I don't understand to what you're
referring in your previous post. The quote
you've given is not one I cited.

And which analogies of mine are you referring to
that you think are false?

Kindly explain.

cont'd ...

otb,

why do you keep referring to MY "dogmatism?"

You consistently use unreasonable generalisations
about posters on this forum. You make all sorts of
assumptions and attach labels to people you don't
know. You don't read what people are actually
saying but accuse them of things they didn't
actually say. You argue on an emotional level rather
than a mature intelligent one. You are pig-headed,
consistently abusive, illogical, - sounds -
like "dogmatic" to me. And you regularly accuse posters
of "political correctness."

"If it's political how the fook can it be correct?"

Sheikh Ahmad Adwan, who introduces himself as a Muslim scholar who lives in Jordan, said on his personal Facebook page that there is no such thing as “Palestine” in the Koran. Allah has assigned the Holy Land to the Children of Israel until the Day of Judgment (Koran, Sura 5 – “The Sura of the Table”, Verse 21), and “We made the Children of Israel the inheritors (of the land)” (Koran, Sura 26 – “The Sura of the Poets”, Verse 59).
6
“I say to those who distort their Lord’s book, the Koran: From where did you bring the name Palestine, you liars, you accursed, when Allah has already named it “The Holy Land” and bequeathed it to the Children of Israel until the Day of Judgment. There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in the Koran. Your demand for the Land of Israel is a falsehood and it constitutes an attack on the Koran, on the Jews and their land. Therefore you won’t succeed, and Allah will fail you and humiliate you, because Allah is the one who will protect them (i.e. the Jews).”
The sheikh added: “The Palestinians are the killers of children, the elderly and women. They attack the Jews and then they use those (children, the elderly and women) as human shields and hide behind them, without mercy for their children as if they weren’t their own children, in order to tell the public opinion that the Jews intended to kill them. This is exactly what I saw with my own two eyes in the 70’s, when they attacked the Jordanian army, which sheltered and protected them. Instead of thanking it (the Jordanian army), they brought their children forward to (face) the Jordanian army, in order to make the world believe that the army kills their children. This is their habit and custom, their viciousness, their having hearts of stones towards their children, and their lying to public opinion, in order to get its support.” [Continued]

It is worth mentioning, that the above mentioned sheikh visited Israel and met Jewish religious scholars. The “Israel in Arabic” site conducted an interview with him, in which he said that the reason for his openness towards the Jewish people “comes from my acknowledgment of their sovereignty on their land and my belief in the Koran, which told us and emphasized this in many places, like His (Allah’s) saying ”Oh People (i.e the Children of Israel), enter the Holy Land which Allah has assigned unto you” (Koran, Sura 5 – “The Sura of the Table”, Verse 21), and His saying “We made the Children of Israel the inheritors (of the land)” (Koran, Sura 26 – “The Sura of the Poets”, Verse 59) and many other verses.
He (Adwan) added: “(The Jews) are peaceful people who love peace, who are not hostile and are not aggressors, but if they are attacked, they defend themselves while causing as little damage to the attackers as possible. It is an honor for them that Allah has chosen them over the worlds – meaning over the people and the Jinns until the Day of Judgment. I made the reasons for Allah’s choice clear in my books and pamphlets. When Allah chose them, He didn’t do so out of politeness, and He wasn’t unjust other peoples, it is just that they (the Jews) deserved this.”

Foxy,

<<If you want to exclude people like Iftikar from this country because he's a Muslim >>
I don’t think I actually said that –that was your inference . My point was more that progressive policies like MC (but not limited to MC) nurture and encourage Iftikars.

<<you may also be doing this country a great disservice. You may also be excluding people like Dr Munjed Al Muderis - who ran from war-torn Iraq>>

A thorough cost analysis which included how much was spent time and money-wise pandering to some of our intakes special needs – including such groups as Dr Sallis and her increasingly ghettoised young Arabs (her words) and their propensity to fund or follow jihad (my words) –and the opportunities lost in not directing that time or money into growing our own might find we have overlooked hundreds of unknown local Dr Munjed Al Muderis’

<<anything else about me. All you're doing is making assumptions about someone >>
I am told that you can judge what a fox has been ingesting from its droppings. Looking at the links you regularly drop on the threads one gets a pretty good idea of your limited diet

PS I will point out your ignorance of the meaning of jihad on that other thread when the ridiculous posting limits allow me to post again --not that it will make a dint on your mindset!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10204849308975393&fref=nf

People anywhere & of any background will put on a good show until their numbers are right for their real agenda.
Unfortunately, just like exploitation, Stupidity too can be an agenda.

Dear SPQR,

One of the things about some Australians that has
always amazed me is their inherent fear of migrants
given that not much more than 200 years ago - this was
a country which was essentially stolen from its
original inhabitants.

You accuse me of having a certain "mindset" and yet
neglect to mention the prejudice yours displays.
Still I don't blame you. Look at our current PM who
based his re-election campaigns on
those old favourite issues of the politically
unenlightened: "illegal" immigrants or asylum seekers and
refugees.

As for the meaning of jihad. I've told you on the other
discussion that Jihad as projected in the Koran is not
ONE single concept. And people, expecially fanatics
can interpret the meaning selectively. However, it's
a range of activities based on the Arabic meaning of the
word - "exerted effort." In the Koran its projected as
exerting effort to change oneself. The most difficult
jihad is the one of the soul - the biggest trouble
is not with your enemy but with yourself.
People can interpret teachings to suit them own agendas -
as we well know.

Talking about "mindsets" - we're each burdened with prejudice:
I'm against - verbal abuse, nasty insinuation and
downright mistruth, should the young and impressionable be
exposed to propaganda deliberately designed to make them
hate others?

It is natural to develop our own set of prejudices.
However, it is noble to rise above them.

Foxy,

<<One of the things about some Australians that has always amazed me is their inherent fear of migrants>>
There’s your one-eyedness coming through again. What you should have said was people general have a fear /suspicion/ dislike of outsiders coming into their domain. To try and make it sound like a peculiar “Australians” characteristic is rather sneaky.

<<As for the meaning of jihad I've told you on the other discussion that Jihad as projected in the Koran>>
Number one, it aint from the Koran! A wrong attribution like that would have seen you called “a liar” by your erstwhile allies on that other thread . It turns out that it if from a hadith and a vary dicey one at that –all will be revealed when I am allowed to post
<< is not ONE single concept. And people, especially fanatics can interpret the meaning selectively. However…>>
Number two, you are seeing things too much through Western secular eyes. Or the eyes of apologists who want to re-image Islam.

I will tell what it's really like later --though I have no delusions that me tell you the truth will make you change your story --cant teach and old dog new tricks and all that--and speaking of such we have this from you << our current PM who based his re-election campaigns on those old favourite issues of the politically unenlightened: "illegal" immigrants or asylum seekers and refugees. >>

There you go with your same old misinformation. We had shown you a dozen times that they are illegals but still you cling to that phony old, advocates line about about them being legal.

Now having said all that –have a good night

Cheers

Dear SPQR,

We're not making any progress - I'm glad that
you also noticed that.

I see things from my own
experiences, education, values, et cetera.
You from yours.

There are so many questions in life - one
couldn't ever have all the answers.

However, I want to live my life in such a way that
when I get out of bed in the morning the devil
says:

"Ah, shyte, she's up!"

You have a good night as well.

PS:- Just to lighten things up a bit -

Question: A bad place to fall asleep?

Answer: Concrete.

Cheers.

Dear SPQR,

The following link may be of interest:

http://amf.net.au/library/uploads/files/Religion_Cultural_Diversity_Resource_Manual.pdf

ConservativeHippie,

You are right about Mikk - he needs help. He sounds like a Dawkins extremist.

Josephus,

Now that's an original insight into the Koran if ever I saw one, that "the Muslims must become Christian". Hilarious.

That was a great lead up. I wonder if there is anything about the 2 year old Jesus and the clay bird in any bibles.

Just thinking more about the question, The “moderate Muslim,” is there such a thing?

Who better to ask than the Muslims themselves, because I have no doubt they have an agenda that involves taking over wherever they can and, once the numbers are achieved, I doubt even they would say there s such a thing because i woukd suggest that to their leaders, their take on it would be, either you belong to the cause, or you don't.

So, in our typical care free reactive attitudes, let's just sit back, do nothing an wait for that day to arrive.

Of cause we could be pro active and take note of what has happened in other European countries when these types get numbers and actually do something about it, but then we wouldn't be your typical Aussies would we.

What a joke our leaders are. What a soft target we are.

Foxy>> Dr Munjed Al Muderis - who ran from war-torn Iraq
and came to this country as an asylum-seeker -
today he's a miracle worker.<<

Foxy my dear, quoting outstanding humanitarian deeds does not qualify the same Muslim person in an environment where the Quran sets the scales of justice. We look towards scholastic eminence as a yardstick to humanity................but when we examine “Hitler’s Einsatzgroups,” whose mobile killing teams murdered well over a million men women and children because of ideology, we find the hands on perpetrators were butchers bakers and candlestick makers........while their group commanders were tertiary educated doctors and lawyers.....in fact one group commander named Dr Otto Rausch was referred to as Dr Dr Rausch because of his multiple doctorates.

Foxy we are not playing the man....we are playing the team.

Josephus................great link .......thanks.....it harkens to my one and only Qran quote.

>>Those who believe and those who are
Jewish and the Christian and the Sabians,
any who believe in Allah and the last day
and work righteously; shall have their reward
with their Lord: on them shall be no fear.
Quran 2:62 <<

Islam as practiced and taught needs reformation.

Dear SOG,

Dr Muderis was told by Saddam Hussein to chop off the
ears of prisoners. He refused and fled the country.
In my books that qualifies him as a humanitarian and
man of principle. And there are many Muslims like him -
who have come to this country - who worked hard, who
studied and achieved through their own resources and
now are contributing to our society. As for what Islam
teaches - you're talking about something that you
know little about - and are buying into the media hype.

BTW: - I watched the "Insiders" on Sunday morning.
Did you know that the extremist - who took his young
son to Syria (holding that decapitated head) was a total
nut-job he had serious mental problems here in Australia,
he suffered from schizoprenia, amd needed medical care.
Yet people are blaming all Muslims for this lunatic's
behaviour?

We need more metacognition, critical thinking, skepticism
to divest ourselves of our biases and ideologies - in favour
of logic and evidence.

'We need more metacognition, critical thinking, skepticism
to divest ourselves of our biases and ideologies - in favour
of logic and evidence. '

Of Foxy if only you 'progressives ' would take off your blinkers and apply your own advice. The blatant disregard for evidence re Islam is staggering.

Dear runner,

Bless you.

Love may be blind - but hate is deaf.

Constance,
A lot of what the Koran says has no foundation in the Bible. Mohamed was exposed to 6th century Christian ideas and managed to confuse truth with fiction. I have a copy of the story of the childhood of Jesus in my library. If you take a sparrow and plaster in mud it will break free and fly away, it was a childhood prank misrepresented by observers.

'Love may be blind - but hate is deaf.

don't get pig headed ignorance mixed up with love Foxy.

Dear runner,

Ah, not engaging in ignorance is wisdom.

Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's
ignorance.

Foxy, you are an educated clear thinking person,

"Did you know that the extremist - who took his young
son to Syria (holding that decapitated head) was a total...."

How did the child get through Customs holding a severed head?

Further a head cannot be decapitated, the body from which it came is decapitated but it is not.

Dear Is Mise,

The child holding the head of the Syrian soldier
was already in Syria. He had been brought there by his
extremist and mentally deranged father. Obviously
you've misunderstood what was being said.

, He had been brought there by his
extremist and mentally deranged father.'

maybe Foxy you are doing those suffering from mental issues a dis service by including this Islamist among them.

The endless refrain of PC Western apologists, fellow travellers, Moslem strategic liars:
"Islam is a religion of peace."
"The Koran contains no calls to violence except when defensive."
"Jihad is mere self-struggle for Godliness."
Etc. Etc. and yah yah yah.

All these apologetics are mercilessly taken apart, with overwhelming Koranic documentation, for example at
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

Adversaries of Islam, albeit with a similarly evil agenda to Islam of their own, have (among others)incontrovertibly exposed two particular Moslem strategies aimed at gullible Western suckers:

1. ABROGATION. The paedophile "prophet" in his own Mein Kampf, the Koran, throws a bulldust cloud of obfuscation into willing eyes with the principle of "abrogation" which means later parts of the Koran abrogate "earlier" parts - essentially that the real message of violence abrogates the smarmy sugar coating. Read all about it at
http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam
to nail the plea "You are referring only to one interpretation of Islam".

2. TAQIYYA. This means tactical and strategic lying. Islam starts with the perfectly reasonable premise that if a Moslem is faced with an injustice it is quite OK to lie a way out of it, but soon works around to the ruling that lying is OK, even mandatory, in the sacred jihad to foist the rule of Islam on others, and ultimately the whole world. This duty, the Koran stresses, applies to every Moslem – no skulking at home. It’s clearly laid out at http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

Note that meforum is a Zionist site but anyone pursuing the same painstaking research will arrive at the same conclusion.

No, Foxy, I didn't misunderstand what was being said, I merely took the literal meaning of what you said.

You should be more careful.

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/05/12/italian-girls-fined-3500-each-for-wearing-swimsuits-near-muslims-on-italian-beach/

something Poirot and Foxy have to look forward to. Yep in Italy not Saudi Arabia.

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/02/13/what-normal-muslims-think-the-video-that-should-horrify-you/

one for Christine Milne and the rest of the 'gay'deniers

what main stream Islam says they deserve

<<something... to look forward to>>

Yep multiculturalism in action ...and it's coming to a suburb near you real soon.

It reminds me of the old scorpion and frog story. http://www.aesopfables.com/cgi/aesop1.cgi?4&TheScorpionandtheFrog

Italy gave shelter/saved these people and now they have stung Italy.

Dear Is Mise,

My apologies. I had made the assumption that
you would have been aware of the man and his son
because this incident was all over the news.
So it would have been clear to most people.
Next time I shall provide more information
for your benefit.

No SPQR

not multiculturalism in action, monoculturalism, Islamist don't believe in multiculturalism. Oh but it is the religion of peace. Just ask Foxy.

Foxy,

You wrote, inter alia, "Did you know that the extremist - who took his young son to Syria (holding that decapitated head) was a total...."

Which statement, dear Librarian, means that the child's father took his son to Syria holding a severed head.

I am well aware of the news stories about this incident, 99% of which also used poor English, as a head cannot have its head cut off, (there may be rare two headed exceptions).

Dear Is Mise,

So, what?

Foxy>> Dr Muderis was told by Saddam Hussein to chop off the
ears of prisoners. He refused and fled the country.
In my books that qualifies him as a humanitarian and
man of principle.<<

Foxy dear, on the basis of your qualification of the Dr I accept he is a virtuous and brave man, but so was Oscar Shindler, but the regime still had the support of the masses.....and it is those “moderate masses” who in this instance want to Islamify the Birmingham school system.

Foxy,

So what?

So you used poor English and one would not expect that from one who has proclaimed her education and status as a Librarian.

We, the masses, expect you to shew us the way.

Dear Is Mise,

Still throwing popcorn.

Try again.

To understand moderate Islam is to understand the principles of 6th - 7th century religion permeating society. The law was paramount in society and its interpreters are the representatives of God / Alla's laws on Earth. Mohamed influenced by Roman Catholic religion who at that time saw the Pope as the only true representative of God on Earth in similar line to the Roman Emperor of The Roman Empire holding all power over the law. The word of the Law was paramount and can only be understood and interpreted by the Imams, as they represent Allah on Earth, the masses are ignorant of his laws and must be taught them by a reputable Imam.
However we recognize most Imams are ignorant of the true principles as taught by Christ the prophet of Christianity.
1. He taught that the law was a Mosaic institution to serve the society of man, and not man serve the law. This is misunderstood by Islam as for them the laws are immutable.
2. Christ taught the greatest man among men must serve and not be served. The kingdom of God is about serving others not being master over others. A servant is one who is engaged in the betterment of others, and not their destruction.
3. Christ taught that society is changed by love and not enforcement of laws. There is no law of love as is flows from a pure spirit to bless and enhance others.

no such thing as a moderate Muslim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsiNKcjruyE

What religion were the Japanese?
Buddhist/ Christian/ Shinto.
What Religion are the Chinese Maoists?
None/Animists
What religion are the North Korean?
None/Animists
What religion were the Russian Communists?
None/ Russian Orthadox.

It wasn't Their Religion that caused these people to go to War.
It was:
Japanese:
Territory/ Economic Gain.
Chinese Maoists:
Political Ideology.
North Korean:
Political Ideology.
Russian:
Feudal System/ Political Ideology.

EJ: "The Koran contains no calls to violence except when defensive."

Any refusal to accept Allah is seen by Moslems as an attack on Islam.

EJ: "Jihad is mere self-struggle for Godliness."
Yair right.

Foxy: The child holding the head of the Syrian soldier was already in Syria. He had been brought there by his extremist and mentally deranged father.

What caused this father to become Mentally Deranged? My guess. The teachings of Islam. How many more deranged fathers are being produced by these teachings in Australia? & what effect will that eventually have on Australia's Unbelievers? Will Australia end up like the UK & Europe with Gettos of no-go arrears for unbelievers? How long before Australia has its first Sports Stadium or Train Bomb because of these Islamic inspired Deranged Fathers?

I guess we will never see an answer from any Islamic supporters here who don't wish to telegraph their intentions.

Dear Jayb,

Who knows what causes extremists and fanatics to
behave the way that they do. What causes Christians
to bomb abortion clinics, what causes others to shoot
their fellow students or innocent people at random.
And so on. Mental disorders are complex, usually
characterised by difficulties in recognising reality,
and regulating emotional responses and thinking in a
clear and logical manner. Some professional believe
that genetics play a heavy role.

Blaming any particular action by extremists on any
particular religion to which they may or may not belong
however is not a wise way to discuss the issues involved.

Good stuff Jayb.

With its plague of accidents and aberrations --if Islam was a car or airplane it would have been grounded years ago.

Foxy: What causes Christians to bomb abortion clinics, what causes others to shoot their fellow students or innocent people at random.
And so on.

Fanatics, caused by their Religious beliefs, mostly.

Foxy: Mental disorders are complex, usually characterised by difficulties in recognising reality, and regulating emotional responses and thinking in a clear and logical manner.

Foxy: So you agree with me on that. Moslems to a greater degree.

So you really do agree with me (us) in this case.

Foxy: Mental disorders are complex.

It depends on they type of Mental Disorder we are talking about. One brought about by Genetics/Toxins or Environment e.g. Religious Teaching. (Christian, Jewish or Moslem

Foxy: A Galaxy poll run exclusively for News Limited revealed people's attitudes in the run up to Australia Day last year. One in 10 said multiculturalism worked very well and made Australia what it is.

Yes one in ten. 10% of Australians agree with Multiculturalism. I agree that there have been benefits, in food, & dance but not really much else. On the downside there is an increase in Drugs Barons brought in by Chinese Triads & Italian & Russian Mafia. Serious religious problems between the different Islamic Sects & Christianity slowly gaining in prominence in a lot of Suburbs. Of course of Political Correctness is leading the fight against Christianity in the Islamic Community, (no Christmas, Easter, etc.)

Jayb, "..Multiculturalism. I agree that there have been benefits, in food,.."

My experience as a student in delivering foodstuffs to ethnic takeaways/restaurants outside of their normal business hours would challenge the cost/benefit to the community of that.

If only the public were aware of the very poor resourcing of health inspection and understand that health inspectors have other roles to fulfill as well. As well, those dubious types who own and operate those businesses often have a lot of swing with local members, somehow.

Just a few are up for 'name'n'shame' in the newspaper, and after years of second chances and slaps on the wrist with a feather.

Try walking past some after hours.

Foxy: What causes Christians to bomb abortion clinics

I suppose those who believe in an eye for an eye.

Dear runner,

No. Christians don't believe in "an eye
for an eye," at all. It's only the fanatics
and extremists within Christianity
that.

The most radical aspect of the teachings of
Christ is his insistence on forgineness.

And even the religions that do believe in an
"eye-for-an eye..." like Judaism - have many
non-violent Jews in their group who are committed
to peace.

Therefore - an entire group of people- or the
majority cannot and should not be tarnished by the
actions of fundamentalists within their group.

Foxy: Therefore - an entire group of people- or the majority cannot and should not be tarnished by the actions of fundamentalists within their group.

True Foxy. But when you are a Moderate Moslem & are threatened with beheading you suddenly turn into an Islamic Fundamentalist, very quickly.

Foxy: like Judaism - have many non-violent Jews in their group who are committed to peace.

Strangely the Jews with the various Funny Hats, Ringlets, etc, that aren't even allowed to breathe on the Sabbath are the most violent mostly towards other Jews.

Foxy: What causes Christians to bomb abortion clinics

Yair, but they're American Fundamental Evangelists. Special emphasis on the Mental bit. Don't like Fundamentalist of any description, Nutters.

Dear Jayb,

Unfortunately there are religious nutters all over the globe.
Not only in the US. That's why it is important to
allow for individual differences within groups. Not everyone
believes in the same things or acts accordingly - even when
threatened with death. Dr Al Muderis is an excellent example -
he refused to cut off people's ears when instructed to do
so by Saddam Hussein and -
he fled his native country and came to Australia as an
asylum seeker - studied,
worked hard, and today is a miracle worker supplying
robotic limbs. You can Google his life story on the web.
And he's not alone in contributing to our society.

Foxy: You can Google his life story on the web. And he's not alone in contributing to our society.
I have no doubt of that, however there are a lot more, dealing Drugs, Rape, Pushing for Sharia Law & a Caliphate in Australia, running Bikie Criminal Groups, Car Recyclers etc.

A lot more of the former that are willing to assimilate & lot less of the latter that have no respect for Australia or it people at all.

Hear is a message from one of the people you & your Ilk support. Remember either you convert or...

Live leak
http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/temp.html?i=bc1_1408481278

Foxy

'No. Christians don't believe in "an eye
for an eye," at all. It's only the fanatics
and extremists within Christianity
that.

The most radical aspect of the teachings of
Christ is his insistence on forgineness. '

I thought that is obvious so why did you ask the question knowing it was a false pretense and somehow draw a ridiculous conclusion that you could compare Mohammed (Islam) and Christ. You should know that secularism has far more extremist than followers of Christ.

From the news…

a. Gaza gunmen killed 18 alleged spies for Israel on Friday, including seven lined up behind a mosque and shot after midday prayers… Two of those killed were women.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/22/hamas-kill-collaborators_n_5699044.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

b. Women Stoned to Death in Syria for Adultery -A cleric read the verdict before the truck came and jumped a large pile of stones… Jihadi fighters then brought in the woman… and put her in a small hole in the ground…
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/women-stoned-death-syria-adultery-24914576

c. (Aug 22) - Iraqi Shiite militiamen machine gunned minority Sunni Muslims in a village mosque on Friday…. A morgue official said 68 people had been killed in the sectarian attack staged on the Muslim day of prayer.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/us-iraq-security-idUSKBN0GM0L620140822

d. …an adviser to the Muslim Council of Britain said Britons from across the country's communities had to stop young men being seduced by radical ideologies. Sacranie said the Muslim community was pushing the message that "this is totally alien to Islam"
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/uk-iraq-security-idUKKBN0GL1M720140821

It is everywhere. Where one finds Islam, one finds hate, violence, discrimination, and most of all, denial.

Yet Muslims and their sympathizers, many posting here, want you to believe it is not islam, not the real Islam, just a small group of people with a perverted understanding of Islam. The problem, of course, is that the radicals quote the Quran frequently and accurately – more than the so-called moderates. In Mohammad’s era, his followers killed both Muslims and infidels by the tens of thousands. Killing is not alien to Islam – it is its core.

Western countries have a death wish. They have taken millions of Muslims into their societies and these millions will repay them with trouble, pain and death. Our leaders have turned their backs on truth, honesty and simple facts in an orgy of politically correct multiculturalism.

Yes, there are good Muslims, but these Muslims have no problem with the hundreds of quranic verses that teach hate and violence. These Muslims have no problem with Mohammad’s wars on Non-Muslims, with plunder, death, rape, torture, burning crops, and enslavement of men women and children. Figure out what that means.

As I said on Aug. 12, before the beheadings, until Muslims say “Yes, the Quran has verses that contribute to hate, violence and discrimination against nonMuslims” and “Yes, our dear prophet did attack, loot, rape and enslave NonMuslims“ and until Muslim societies repeal the blasphemy and apostasy laws and all other forms of discrimination and violence against nonMuslims (and even other Muslims), there is no reason to believe that Muslims are honest or that they can or will leave in peace with others. Any Muslim that says that Islam teaches peace, love, tolerance and respect obviously has not read the Quran or is simply deceitful.

Now some replies…

Steel, by no stretch of the imagination was ww2 a religious war. And no – Muslims don’t have a monopoly on violence – they are often killed by non-Muslims – and more often by other Muslims. Quran 9:111 says that Muslims are put on earth to kill and be killed -Its a good thing that Allah didn’t specify non-Muslims in that verse.

Yvonne, yes, Muslims condemn terror – on queue, when asked -- but nothing ever changes. It just gets worse. It seems that Muslim condemnation isnt working. One gets the feeling that its just show. On the other hand, Muslims are very selective about what they condemn. Have you ever seen a Muslim condemn Mohammad’s raids on Non-Muslims? How about looting, killing, rape and enslavement of the Banu al-Mastaliq? Well, 50%.

Foxy, Dr Muderis is certainly a good, great person – but he obviously has no problem with some hate and violence – that of Mohammad. Instead of standing up to it in his native land, he, like so many others, comes to the west and brings the evil ideology with them. Like all Muslims, he is silent when it matters.

At the end of the day it is about equal standards for all – that is the sin of the average Muslim. They want for themselves what they deny to others. Killing, rape and slavery is only bad depending on who does it.

Its going to get worse, much worse.

kactuz

the more Christophobic a person is the more they become an apologist for Islam and its atrocities. They start to make up desperate and somewhat ridiculous comparisons. Unfortunatley the total immoral 'progressive'media are the experts at this. That is why they are highly unlikely to support Israel and yet cheer Hamas. Deep down it is the hatred for the God of Israel that motivates their deviant take on things.

Dear Kactuz,

You really need to lay off the stereotyping.

You've crossed the line with your statement about
Dr Munjed Al Muderis who has dedicated his life
in helping combatants of wars who have lost their
limbs. Whose entire life has been exemplenary in
helping his fellow human beings. Kindly read
the following link about the man you tried to denigrate:

http://www.news.com.au/national/inspiring-tale-of-former-refugee-dr-munjed-al-muderis-and-war-hero-michael-swain/story-fncynjr2-1226849124080

Foxy, you reference “Muslim Australians - A Partnership under the Australian Government’s Living In Harmony initiative”, a piece of crude propaganda, full of misquotes, errors, and lies.
http://amf.net.au/library/uploads/files/Religion_Cultural_Diversity_Resource_Manual.pdf
From the booket, one would wonder why Muslims would leave the just, peaceful paradise that Islam teaches.

A few comments on quotes from booklet…

Page9 - Australia gives people freedom to practice, teach, and even propagate their religion. Such freedoms are not available in a significant number of Muslim countries. (Actually, all muslim countries)

Page14 - Muhammad continued for thirteen years, preaching his message… At the time of the Prophet’s death ten years later in 632, Islam had spread to all corners of Arabia (Preaching? Actually he waged constant war on his neighbors, committing murder, plunder, torture, rape and enslaving thousands. See list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_expeditions_of_Muhammad

Page31 - Islam condemns domestic violence in the strongest terms. (Yeah, right. The Quran teaches that beating women is a right; Mohammad himself beat his wife, and Aisha said “I have never seen women so abused as the wives of the believers”)

Page35 - In most Muslim societies, women and men are equal before the law. Both have access to education, employment, and participation in the political system. (haha haaaahaaahaha, funny!)

Page61 - Jihad is essentially a doctrine of self-defence. (Obviously ISIS didn’t get the message. Look up the word in the hadith:
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/home/search.php

Page68 - Prophet Muhammad on protection of ‘people of the Book’ under Islamic rule in the 7th century (would this be the same Mohammad that ordered the expulsion of jews/christens from Arabia?)

Page 68 - Islam does not criticise the religion of Christianity or Judaism (Oh no, not more than hundreds of times and “lower than animals” is really a compliment)

Pages61/67 - According to the Qur’an, killing an innocent person is like killing the entire community of human beings (Everybodys favorite quranic verse… More on this later)

Page 64 - In Muslim majority countries, they do not think of non-Muslims there as second-class citizens… (These) give equal rights to all citizens regardless of their religion, who are equal before the law. (hahaha, again)

Dear runner,

What then is your reason for all the hatred you
as a Christian carry and continually post on this
forum - when the basic tenant of
Christ's teachings is forgiveness - even of enemies.

I can understand Katctuz's bias and vitriol against Islam.
Kactuz obviously believes in the religion that teaches
"an eye for an eye," but you have no excuse -
shame on you.

Foxy

don't mix up telling the truth with hatred. It seems another favourite tactic of the 'progressives'. Please point to a person I hate?

Dear runner,

Go back and re-read your own posting record on this
forum. Nothing more needs to be said.

I see Foxy you are incapable of answering. Caught out again.

Foxy: You really need to lay off the stereotyping.

Don't throw stones.

Foxy: You can Google his life story on the web. And he's not alone in contributing to our society.
I have no doubt of that, however there are a lot more, dealing Drugs, Rape, Pushing for Sharia Law & a Caliphate in Australia, running Bikie Criminal Groups, Car Recyclers etc.

A lot more of the former that are willing to assimilate & lot less of the latter that have no respect for Australia or it people, at all.

Runner: don't mix up telling the truth with hatred. It seems another favourite tactic of the 'progressives'.

Like Moslems. Any disagreement is an attack on them or their Religion & is purposely misconstrued as hate.

Well said Kactuz.

Interesting Live leak
http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/u/u/temp.html?i=bc1_1408481278

Dear runner,

I see you are incapable both of hearing and
understanding.

Dearb Jayb,

Yes there are a lot more dealing in drugs
and crime and they come in all shapes and
sizes. Precisely my point in suggesting to
lay off the stereotypes.

here's one to make even the do-gooders think.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10204326980673843&set=vb.1209145283&type=2&theater

STEREOTYPING

Here's a dictionary definition of sterotyping:
ste·reo·type transitive verb: to believe unreasonably that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same

And here's an example: All religions are the same...there's good and bad of equal measure in all.

All religions are the same.
SPQR,
Only in that they're a control system that had almost lost it's momentum but western greed has opened the eyes of many which has re-kindled their interest in religion to be used as a very effective smokescreen tool to hit back.
Perhaps to didn't look at that link but it is the best summary of that religion thus far.
Our religion, money, does as much harm as Islam.

Hi Individual,

I don't believe that all religions have the same measure of good and bad --but some who have written on this thread clearly do.

It's debatable whether one can blame any
religion for its misuse.

We haven't heard from you for a while Shahida, Where are you? Have you admitted that there is no such thing as a "Moderate" Moslim.

Dear Jayb,

If you believe that there is no such thing
as a "moderate Muslim," then according to
that logic - "we are all human, one human does
evil, we are all evil."

Interesting.

<<It's debatable whether one can blame any religion for its misuse>>


The huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge assumption behind that bit of fluff is that all religions were designed/devised/developed with wholesome motives.

The reality is that some creeds were imbued from day-one with some pretty nasty aspirations.

Runner: The reality is that some creeds were imbued from day-one with some pretty nasty aspirations.

Yes it took the Christians 387 years to start killing anyone that wasn't Christian or the "right" brand of Christian. Whereas Islam started from "Day one." But, what can you expect from a paedophile Camel Train robber. Is that right Shahida?

Jayb

\Yes it took the Christians 387 years to start killing anyone that wasn't Christian or the "right" brand of Christian.'

yep in direct violation to the teachings of Christ while Islam follow their founder and secularist murder the unborn and others by using pseudo science as justification. Yep the heart of man is wicked especially when fed rotten ideology such as secularism or Islam.

Dear runner,

What about the tennant of Christ's teaching -
forgiveness? Do you believe in that at all -
if you do - when are you going to show us
some signs of it on this forum?

Foxy writes: "If you believe that there is no such thing as a "moderate Muslim," then according to that logic - "we are all human, one human does evil, we are all evil."

Like all Islamic excuse-making and Western PC apologetics, that statement violates the basic principles of logic. Even the most rudimentary study of the role of jihad in Islam's most sacred texts - including the Koran, Mohammed's prescient version of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" - shows its objective of world domination, the duty of EVERY Moslem to devote himself/herself to fighting for this objective, and the techniques of "abrogation" and "taqiyya" in blinding willing infidels with a cloud of BS. Moderate Moslems are not true Moslems and the crude and brutal videos made by the true Moslems are Islam's version of "Lord Kitchener Wants You" call directed to Moslem back-sliders.

What is concerning is the "Muslims did it" attitudes
that come across linking terrorism with all Muslims.
These sort of stories are manufactured and
disseminated not only in the jungle of the internet,
but to worldwide media and they always link terrorism
with Muslims - even if later they are proven to be
untrue. Muslims we are told are Islamic radicals, every
one of them (despite cultural, linguistic, and
individual differences). The emphasis is that these
radicals are motivated by religion, not by political
grievances.

These "facts" are presented by people who are drowning
in bias, ignorance, and shallow credentialism. And they
regard themselves as "experts," on the subject.

Ah well, as William F. Buckley Jr once stated words to
the effect -

"...it does take a lot of practice to become a moral slob."

If the first words to come out of their mouths are to
cry "Political Correctness," or "Muslim Apologists,"
then the chances are very high indeed that they are
part of the problem!

Well said Foxy, you have summed up the basics of this thread very well.
Of course there are moderate Muslims, just like there are in any religion, race or culture.
Anyone who doesn't agree is simply ignorant .... or racist!

Heh, heh, Suseonline plays the racism card in support of Foxy.

So good to mount that high moral platform to look down on others.

But wait a bit, isn't that the Suseonline who continually trashes her despised 'old white men', and Foxy, the OLO Legend for 'dissing' Australians as 'Nullaboring' and far worse, as 'racists', 'xenophobes', 'users' of migrants and goodness knows what.

Anglophobic

But that is different, somehow.

Back to Islam and the thread.
Just wondering, why shouldn't Islam shoulder some of the blame for the ill-treatment of people and dreadful, evil atrocities done in its name? After all, it is tres 'Progressive' to hold Roman Catholicism, its church, Pope, Bible and even their God responsible for the molesting of children by the priesthood.

Religious tolerance must measure and have regard for the toxicity inherent in some. Maybe those offenders are not as rare and aberrant as some here might like us to believe. Comparing again with the Roman Catholic Church, most would agree there is something structurally wrong for instance. It is unrealistic and foolhardy to claim that Islam is beaut but just a few baddies let it down.

Catholicism has its problems but all of them stem from ignoring the teachings of its founder, Jesus Christ; Islam's main problems stem from the following of the teachings of its founder, Muhammad.

Whilst ever there are followers of Muhammad then the problems will remain.

Posted by onthebeach, it is unrealistic and foolhardy to claim that Islam is beaut but just a few baddies let it down.
Exactly,
Every devout Muslim believes in the Caliphate.
Good and bad are a Western Christian concepts.
The baddies are the good Muslims.

If I were some mad jihadist --and yes, I know Suze and Foxy there are no such people they are only a figment of some wild neo-cons imagination --but,but,but just supposing for argument sake there were mad jihadists. I could envisage nothing better to advance their cause than to clone Foxy and Suze and infiltrate the hundreds of thousands of said clones into liberal democracies...who needs warlike jihadis when you can do much more damage with a Foxy or Suze

Dear SPQR,

No one is suggesting that there aren't
"Mad jihadists," only that not all
Muslims are mad jihadists. There's a
difference.

Any religion
can be mis-used by zealots. However the
religion should not be blamed for what
some zealots make of it.

As for your comments about myself and Suse -
you've crossed the line with those.
I'd like an apology.

Cardinal Pell has been rounded up and declared disgraceful and much worse epithets (in New Matilda, for example), for his misplaced diplomacy and defences of the Roman Catholic Church. Roman Catholicism is on the nose and plenty are expressing doubts about the church's ability to govern itself, especially where the rights and wellbeing of children and women are concerned.

I am not disagreeing or agreeing with that, but simply asking why it is not OK for the RC Church to use errant, rule-breaking priests as its defence (say) re child molesting,

but

it is Ok for Islam to be excused for the denial of ordinary human rights to millions and continuing acts of extreme cruelty, usually against its own adherents and countrymen. This goes beyond the problem of other Muslims harboring psychopathic SOBs among them.

Never mind Foxy, sometimes we just need to spell it out again......slowly.

Sigh.

OTB, has anyone ever damned ALL Catholics as paedophiles just because a significant number of Priests have been found guilty of this crime?

You, and others on this forum, appear to damn ALL Muslims as violent terrorists because of the actions of SOME Muslims.

Do you see what I mean?

Foxy

Dear runner,

'What about the tennant of Christ's teaching -
forgiveness?

I forgive you Foxy for deliberately misrepresenting me.

S.O.L.: OTB, has anyone ever damned ALL Catholics as paedophiles just because a significant number of Priests have been found guilty of this crime?

How come it's the Catholic Priests that get all the attention. They only make up less than 10% of the total. You forgot to mention the CofE's & O.P.D's, Boy Scout Leaders, Gymnastics, Dance & Sports Coaches, Politicians, Lawyers, Teachers & some Dads.

S.O.L.: You, and others on this forum, appear to damn ALL Muslims as violent terrorists because of the actions of SOME Muslims.

No, the Moslems damm themselves. They are Moderate as individuals but when push comes to shove they are all Radicals. Their Religion says they have to be or they face the same fate as Infidels. E.G.;

Sura (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Telling people to kill unbelievers.

Sura (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (Margin note. "at home") and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (Margin note. "at home"). Unto all (Margin note . "Faith") Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (Margin note. "at home") by a special reward."

Suseonline,

You miss the point yourself. Go back and read my first para.

It is you who would have others take Islam as benign, peaceful and loving, and furthermore you declare others are 'racist' for their queries and criticism, although their concerns seem well founded in fact.

Now what about having a go at that question instead of side-stepping it? Here again and you might pay attention to the 'Islam' referred to,

Why it is not OK for the RC Church to use errant, rule-breaking priests as its defence (say) re child molesting,

but

it is Ok for Islam to be excused for the denial of ordinary human rights to millions and continuing acts of extreme cruelty, usually against its own adherents and countrymen. This goes beyond the problem of other Muslims harboring psychopathic SOBs among them.

Is there any question which religion the vast majority of terrorists ascribe to for the past 30 years? Is there any question which religion is producing significant numbers of radicalised extremists that pose a threat to innocent citizens all around the Western world? Is there any question which religion the person or group of people will belong to when the next terrible terrorist attack happens in NY, London or possibly Sydney?

If there are moderate Muslims why aren't they protesting in the streets? Why aren't the moderate Muslim countries sending troops to wipe out ISIS?

All Praise is due to Allah. I am so happy to know that the West is now more open to accept Islam, and Islam is actually the only way out of the deteriorating situation prevailing throughout the west and the world in general. Anti Islam propaganda in the Western media for the past 20 years, which accelerated after the 911, is having the opposite effect. Some educated people in the West mainly out of curiosity want to learn what Islam is about. When they approach their research with an open mind, probably most of them form positive impressions about Islam and some of whom rightfully convert. In the USA after the events of 911, conversions to Islam phenomenally increased mainly in amongst the educated white community and a large majority of them were females.

"I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion for from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." [G.B. Shaw, THE GENUINE ISLAM, Vol.
1, No. 81936.]
IA
http://www.londonschoolofislamics.org.uk

@Iftikhar, Sunday, 24 August 2014 9:31:06 PM

Cobblers!

That would go against everything the man stood for.

Don't tell me, it was a 'report' of what he was alleged to have said, right? In Australia that is referred to as verballing.

Where did G B Shaw ever put his moniker to it?

Foxy, read my post again. I said Dr Muderis was a good man and I also said that as a Muslim, his morals were suspect because Muslims have double standards --they will not condemn the hate in the Quran or the murder, rape and other evils perpetuated by Mohammad.

About my “bias and vitriol” against Islam – I know that you will find this unbelievable --Islam being a religion of peace-- but many years ago Muslims threatened me (yawn!) and then my family (ok, its war) when I made some simple and very provable statement about Mohammad’s wars . What kind of people would be so low, so repugnant to do this? Well, Muslims. So I got even, I read the Quran, most major collections of hadith and even Tabari (Uppth!), Hisham and Kathir.

You know, what is strange is that critics of Islam (me, others) make terrible accusations about Allah, the Quran and Mohammad, and people like you and Yvonne (Muslims?) never take issue with the sources. I would think that in a debate, certain people would say “prove it” and ask for references. I know that if I were promoting an ideology and some critic challenged me saying it taught hate or its founder was a rapist and slaver, I would demand proof. I would look up all references.

Muslims just prefer to ignore anything they find uncomfortable, or make excuses.

IMuslim immigration will bring blood and tears to the West. We already see jihadi groups forming in the West. We see “moderate” Muslims making the usual excuses.

I fault our leaders – political, academic, the media, liberal kumbayah religious figures for their blindness and deceit. The put their egos above truth and the public welfare when it comes to immigration.

Example: Aleisha Orr writes in The Age, telling us, once again, there is nothing Islamic about beheading. Well, nothing Islamic accept 2verses in the Quran telling the faithful to do it (“Strike their necks”). She goes on to tell us, again, that people just don’t understand Islam, how nice and peaceful it is.
http://www.theage.com.au/wa-news/there-is-nothing-islamic-about-a-beheading-muslims-v-extremists-20140821-106d1c.html

The number of 'native' British women killed by their native British husbands in domestic violence absolutely swamps the number of 'honour killings'. But 'honour killings' in the Asian community is given all the attention. British families would give the same responses if you asked 'would you be tempted to take action if someone had raped your daughter?'. Thus 'proving' that most Brits approve of honour killings. Violence against women in one form or another is cross cultural. One only needs to look at the domestic violence statistics. And not to forget that domestic violence against men is quite common too, but not spoken off. This is yet another bash the Muslims article and then everyone wonders why the community feels so alienated. All those who are making references to Islam with respect to honour killings I would just like to point out that it is not an Islamic issue. Honour killings have a cultural basis NOT RELIGIOUS!!

Islam is about freedom and not compulsion, Q 2:256, "Let there be no compulsion in religion". We recognize that culture is deeply ingrained into each one of us, and a full Hijab wearing woman will not go cold turkey and quit wearing the Hijab the very next day. She will not be comfortable with it and none of us have the right to tell her to wear or quit wearing it. The change should come out of her own volition as it is a part of her cultural life. It is like forcing a vegetarian to eat meat or ordering a meat eating person to quit eating meat.

As Muslims we should be pro-choice based on Quran and Prophet's teaching, the prophet had said, if the husband compels her to believe (in matters of faith) other than what she believed, she does not have to obey him. Meaning a woman should have the freedom to wear full Hijab, partial Hijab or just the head covering or not wear the covering at all, but never forced. That is the genuine freedom, a critical value of Islam.

Let’s ask Iftikhar, our knowledgeable, proud Muslim…

Iftikhar, please answer the following questions:

1. Is there anything in the Quran that may contribute to the discrimination against Non-Muslims that occurs so often today in Islamic societies -- or anything that so-called radicals can use to justify their violent actions?

2. What is your opinion about Mohammed’s wars? Will you condemn any of his actions?

That’s it! Two simple (compound) questions.

If Foxy or Yvonne want to jump in and answer, that is alright, too.

Words that remain true until today

“The Americans and the rest of the Western world are like the butcher who wears white clothes when he is about to slaughter a sheep! And if the leg of the sheep shudders as it soul departs its body or a speck of blood falls on the butchers white garment the sheep is considered to be a rude, disobedient sheep. Likewise they want to slaughter us while dressed in white garments…

When we defend our selves they shout we are fundamentalists, terrorists, jihadists and savages. Protecting our honour has become anarchy and a savagery. They do all of this and want us to laugh with them. They take our resources and we are supposed to say “Yes sir, Yes sir!” They take our holy places and even if we carry one bullet they say ‘they are terrorists’ – if this is what they call terrorism then we are all “terrorists”. The people who are moderate and soft in the deen enjoy luxury they are flowing in one river, and the deen flows in another.“

Ify shows himself to be the typical product of a Muslim education:

He knows about everyone else's crimes:
<<“The Americans and the rest of the Western world are yada yada yadas …>>

But not a thing about the much greater crimes of Islam:
<<When we defend our selves they shout we are fundamentalists, terrorists, jihadists and savages …>>

And to an extent you can't blame him because every time someone exposes the seamier side of Islam some Greeny–Lefty jumps in to defect the conversation and blame.

Take a bow Foxy
Take a bow Paul 1405
Take a bow Suze

Because you have all contributed to Ify's (and many millions of others like him) self-righteous ignorance.

The primary principle of Mohamed as he saw Islam was the enforcement of the Law of Allah.
The primary principle of Christ as he represented God was love of neighbor.
Law will never solve human problems but repentance, forgiveness and grace will.

The 'progressives'will always remain wilfully ignorant because truth does not fit their hopelessly flawed narrative. They have proven this time and time again and the denials re Islam is a prime example.

Islam is where Christianity was 600 years ago. Islam needs a period of enlightenment similar to what Christianity has gone through. It is unfortunate that reciting the Koran in Arabic is virtually the school curriculum in a lot of Islamic countries. Islam had a period of enlightenment in the 12th century but has been regressing ever since. Do any of them seriously believe in the 72 virgins waiting for all the suicide bombers and jihadists when common sense indicates mental instability?

http://m.apnews.mobi/ap/db_6776/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=n240DhUU

" The top Islamic authority in Egypt, revered by many Muslims worldwide, launched an Internet-based campaign Sunday challenging an extremist group in Syria and Iraq by saying it should not be called an "Islamic State."

The campaign by the Dar el-Ifta, the top authority that advises Muslims on spiritual and life issues, adds to the war of words by Muslim leaders across the world targeting the Islamic State group, which controls wide swaths of Iraq and Syria. Its violent attacks, including mass shootings, destroying Shiite shrines, targeting minorities and beheadings including American journalist James Foley, have shocked Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

The Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shawki Allam, previously said the extremists violate all Islamic principles and laws and described the group as a danger to Islam as a whole. Now, the Dar el-Ifta he oversees will suggest foreign media drop using "Islamic State" in favor of the "al-Qaida Separatists in Iraq and Syria," or the acronym "QSIS," said Ibrahim Negm, an adviser to the mufti."

R0bert

Islam is where Secularism was not long back under Stalin, Mao and many others. Secularism has now santisized its killing mainly by using pseudo science to justify the convenience of destroying babies in the womb.Islam is more blunt.

@Robert,

<< Now, the Dar el-Ifta he oversees will suggest foreign media drop using "Islamic State" in favor of the "al-Qaida Separatists in Iraq and Syria," or the acronym "QSIS,">>

Sorry I don’t buy it Robert

ISIS is NOT al-Qaeda -- ISIS is more like al-Zarqawi's faction.
If you read al-Qaeda’s mail to al-Zarqawi, al-Qaeda was urging him--pleading with him to stop attacks on Shia because they wanted a common Muslim front against the West and Israel.

After they had disposed of the West and Israel then they would turn their attention on the heretical Shia.

ISIS is targeting every NON-Sunni is sight (ala al-Zarqawi - or Sunni Islam where ever is has the numbers)

I think the good Mufti is playing on/to the Western liberals fears of al-Qaeda ala: "see it's not us, it's that dastardly bad apple al-Qaeda"

As long as ISIS are calling themselves the Islamic State, that is the name of the enemy. If the Muslims don't want ISIS referring to Islam then the Muslims should go to war with them or at least fund the arms and support to those fighting for their lives.

Who's funding ISIS? Perhaps they need a few Daisy Cutters dropped in the their backyard as a wake up call.

SILLER, "Do any of them seriously believe in the 72 virgins waiting for all the suicide bombers.."

Islam is full of anxiety-promoting threats, it gathers the sorry SOBs who don't have much hope or accomplishment in their life and it bestows (illusory) personal power upon them to hit others hard and cruelly, and to go out if a blaze of glory.

None of the old mongrels who end them would do it for all of those promised 'virgins'. The old mongrels already have their child brides and plenty of them.

Jihardists are weak-minded, impressionable, vulnerable but dangerous young fools. Their mothers gain heaps though for they are celebrated in an ongoing way and given gifts and bask in the reflected glory. Children are cheap for them apparently. Contemptible.

A religion that does that must be regarded as toxic and must discouraged in a modern democracy. Tolerance does not imply unconditional acceptance.

First sentence of my second para should read, "None of the old mongrels who send them would do it for all of those promised 'virgins'."

Runner: Secularism has now sanitized its killing mainly by using pseudo science to justify the convenience of destroying babies in the womb. Islam is more blunt.

True, I find nothing wrong with abortion provided it's done for the right reason. I.e. Medical fitness of the Child & Mother. Throughout History Medical Science has been hindered by Religion, even today with opposition to Stem Cell use. I.e. Church leaders were against using Penicillin because it would be used to cure the "Pox." If it wasn't for WW2 we still wouldn't have antibiotics.

So don't come that crap with me. Now where were we.

SPQR: After they had disposed of the West and Israel then they would turn their attention on the heretical Shia.

Exactly.

Cons Hippey: Perhaps they need a few Daisy Cutters dropped in the their backyard as a wake up call.

Wait until there all in one place, then.... Fly in some crows etc to clean up the mess.

SILLER: "Do any of them seriously believe in the 72 virgins waiting for all the suicide bombers.."

Notice it doesn't specify the Age, Sex or Species. I believe there's Lot's of 50 year old Bull Camels in Heaven.

I notice of resident Fundamentalist is back.

Iftikhar: When we defend ourselves they shout we are fundamentalists, terrorists, jihadists and savages.

You attack the West, its People & Values, & because the West refuses to convert to your ridiculously stupid Religion you say that the West is attacking you. Then you claim the right to defend yourselves. You said yourself that there are "No Moderate Moslems." Are you claiming the West is not allowed to defend itself from Islamic Terrorism?

Iftikhar: a speck of blood falls on the butchers white garment the sheep is considered to be a rude, disobedient sheep.

Where did you get that crap idea from, having grown up on a Slaughter Yard, I noticed no such thing. That's an old 6th. Century Islamic idea not a Western one.

Iftikhar: Protecting our honour has become anarchy and a savagery.

I'm sorry mate, there is no Honour in Islam. Is that why you murder your daughters when one of your friends rape her. To protect the family honour? Eh!

Iftikhar: All those who are making references to Islam with respect to honour killings I would just like to point out that it is not an Islamic issue. Honour killings have a cultural basis NOT RELIGIOUS!!

Strange when something wrong with Islam is pointed out, the problem becomes "Cultural" not "Religious." So what you are saying here is that Islam is 90% Cultural. Killing unbelievers & raped girls, Female Circumcision, Bag over the head, Men wearing dresses & Natural Stupidity are all Cultural. Not really a culture the West would want to adopt or a religion that says that everyone that resists being converted is attacking you so you have to kill them.

Sura's 8:12 & 4:95.

"Political Correctness" has a precise meaning: assessing the correctness of a statement according to its concurrence with a political programme rather than its concurrence with truth.

"Moslem apologists" are fellow-travellers who persistently return to describing Islam in terms of its temporary (cf. abrogation) sugar coating while denying (by blandly ignoring) its essential core.

The essential core, repeatedly stressed in the Koran and other Moslem holy texts, is jihad, perpetual war directed to forcing infidels worldwide to adopt the Moslem cult and obey its dictates.

All this has been demonstrated again and again and again with comprehensive references to specifically named sections of the Moslem sacred texts.

Regrettably the only material I have been able in a short time to lay hands on in a form which is readily cited on line is from Zionists with a racist agenda of their own to be hostile to Islam, but there is no scope for refutation of what they say about the Moslem religion and its adherents. Here are some:

http://answering-islam.org/ (Christian site)
Taqiyya: http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war (Zionist site)
Abrogation: http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam (Zionist site)
Koran and violence: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm (Zionist site)

For a former Moslem untainted by racism who mercilessly takes Islam apart as an existential enemy of the Enlightenment, Google "Ibn Warraq". Or read his scholarly reasoning at http://www.newenglishreview.org/Ibn_Warraq/Islam,_Middle_East_and_Fascism/
.

""Political Correctness" has a precise meaning: assessing the correctness of a statement according to its concurrence with a political programme rather than its concurrence with truth"

No, that may be the definition you prefer but it is not the common usage. See here,courtesy of Google,

political correctness
noun
the avoidance of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against.

EJ: "Political Correctness" has a precise meaning: assessing the correctness of a statement according to its concurrence with a political programme rather than its concurrence with truth.

An' I thought the definition was, " An attempt to pick a turd up by the clean end."

A civilisation is measured not by the rights it grants its majority but the privileges it allows its minorities. Muslim families are as entitled as any other religious group to schools that nurture their children's faith. Muslim pupils should be educated in Muslim schools because the current system is marginalising them. Teaching Muslim children in a Muslim school would remove the "problem of them being exposed" to values that conflict with Islamic faith. Muslim pupils are disadvantaged and marginalised in the city's state schools because the cultural heritage of the curriculum is "European and Christian".

Muslim schools provide an education in accordance with the Muslim beliefs and values, such as providing single-sex schooling after puberty. They are thus a response to the danger of absorption into the dominant culture.

The demand for state funded Muslim schools is in accordance with the law of the land. Muslims are not asking for any favour. I set up the first Muslim school in London in 1981 and now there are 170 Muslim schools and only 12 are state funded. I would like to see each and every Muslim child in a state funded Muslim schools and I hope one day my dream would come true. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. Bilingual Muslim children need bilingual Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental period.

You better teach your children in your own schools and let migrant communities teach their children according to their needs and demands.British Establishment and society should concentrate on the evils of their own society and stop trying to change the way of life of Muslims. Muslim community does not want to integrate with the British society, indulging in incivility, anti-social behaviour, drug and knife culture, binge drinking, teenage pregnancies and abortion.

A Muslim is a citizen of this tiny global village. He/she does not want to become notoriously monolingual Brit. He/she is well versed in standard English, Arabic, Urdu and other community languages.

Iftikhar, you are doing the Muslim community in Australia no favours by suggesting we should have all Muslim children go to state funded Muslim-only schools.

We don't have state funded religious schools here as far as I know.
If you want your kids to go to a Muslim only school then I suggest you build your own private ones.

However, it would be considered racist in this country if you were to refuse entrance of non-Muslims to these schools.

If you consider non-Muslim people in this country as so unsavory as to not allow your children to integrate with them, then why on earth would you want to live here?

Australia is a largely secular country that does not allow religion to run our lives.

It is a very tolerant country, and we have recently had Melbourne named as the most liveable city in the world, largely due to its successful integration of so many migrant groups.
I would hate to see this secular multicultural success compromised in any way.

The demand for state funded Muslim schools is in accordance with the law of the land. Muslim community is not asking for any favour. State schools with non-Muslim teachers are not suitable for Muslim children. Muslim children need Muslim teachers as role models during their developmental period. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. Derby Free Muslim school is in a mess because there are lot of non-Muslim teachers. Those schools in Birmingham which are victim of Trojan Horse have non-Muslim teachers and children. There is no place for a non-Muslim child or a teacher in a Muslim school. Those state and church schools where Muslim children are in majority, in my opinion, should be opted out as Muslim Academies.

Muslim haters are so eager to uncover a plot. Well let me spoil the party - there isn't an Islamic plot to take over the schools. These schools were neglected by the government and the teachers hated the children and being there. They gave a minimal level of input. Finally, the community took the matter in their own hands and raised standards. Strange how one fake letter has drawn the Neo con wrath. The school system is designed to control young peoples minds, and turn them into useful tools for those doing the controlling, or did any of us really believe it was designed for education ? The vast majority of Pak origin immigrants to UK were uneducated or with little education and their off springs also did not go into education. Little wonder that they would take over educational institutes in their majority areas and regulate education as they see it. Islam is here to stay and the sooner the British public accepts that. Islam teaches moderation. The value system in Islam is based on tolerance. In all religions where people have faith in one God know that they are accountable on the day of judgement to whatever their Creator has asked them to do and act.

SPQR, you may right in that suggestion. I'm undecided. Certainly plenty of evidence of fanatics of all sorts of persuasions being willing to lie and do the vilest things in the name of their causes.

R0bert

Iftikhar, I'm sorry, I didn't realise you were talking about UK schools.
I only know about Australian schools.

It sounds like you would be happier in a Muslim country, where you could be sure all the pupils and teachers had the same religion as you.
I hope we never see anything like those sort of schools in Australia....

Once again, Iftikhar, please answer the following questions:

1. Is there anything in the Quran that may contribute to the discrimination against Non-Muslims that occurs so often today in Islamic societies -- or anything that so-called radicals can use to justify their violent actions?

2. What is your opinion about Mohammed’s wars? Will you condemn any of his actions?

That’s it! Two simple (compound) questions.

If Foxy or Yvonne want to jump in and answer, that is alright, too.
Posted by kactuz, Monday, 25 August 2014 1:28:14 AM

Suseonline I may be wrong but I had the impression that we already have them. The government funds private schools heavily, not sure about the legality of employment or enrollment based on religion but there appears to be plenty of scope for that here as well with special exemption to laws about discrimination granted on the basis of religion.

R0bert

@Suseonline,

<<It sounds like you would be happier in a Muslim country>>
You're dern tootin he would! but he wants to make England that Muslim state. And he intends that the dim-witted pommy dhimmi will fund it’s Islamification.
___________

@ Kactuz
<<Once again, Iftikhar, [you didn’t answer my question re] discrimination against Non-Muslims>>
There’ll be no talk of special privileges for the true believers -- leastway until they get the numbers--then, that will be all we’ll hear.

https://www.youtube.cto om/watch?v=NmHshbKTk-M&feature=youtu.be

Can devout Muslims find the truth? Listen to this devout Muslims conversion.

Josephus, your 'truth' doesn't have to be anyone else's truth.
One fictitious god is the same as another.

RObert, I meant fully state owned religious based schools like Iftikhar wants.
In other words, he/she wants the Government to build and pay for a religious based school that only Muslim children and teachers can go to.

To me, that is completely racist.

Catholic schools that I know built their schools from Catholic funds and the kids receive some Government funding, as for all Aussie kids, but most of the parents pay much larger school fees than the public schools require to send their kids to these schools.
They don't require all their kids or teachers to be Catholic.

Muslim schools should be no different.

Ifitikhar: Muslim pupils are disadvantaged and marginalised in the city's state schools because the cultural heritage of the curriculum is "European and Christian". They are thus a response to the danger of absorption into the dominant culture.

So what you are saying is; Moslems immigrate to a Country whose Culture they abhor, refuse to integrate then demand that their children be educated separately thereby creating an nation within a Nation, whose sole aim is to destroy the host nation.

Ifitikhar: Muslim community does not want to integrate with the British society, indulging in incivility, anti-social behaviour, drug and knife culture, binge drinking, teenage pregnancies and abortion.

In Nature they have a name for that behaviour. "Parasitic."

Ifitikhar: The school system is designed to control young peoples minds, and turn them into useful tools for those doing the controlling, or did any of us really believe it was designed for education ?

I take it you are referring to Moslem only schools here. Schools designed to turn its students into raving lunatics suicide bombers.

Ifitikhar: Islam is here to stay and the sooner the British public accepts that. Islam teaches moderation. The value system in Islam is based on tolerance.

With what is happening lately we may see a great change in this area. If I had my way I would pack up every Moslem & deport them back to wherever they came from, for the safety of the host Countries citizens.

If you hate Britain & the Culture so much I suggest you Eff 'orf back to Syria/Iraq. Now! Deprive Britain of your superior intellect, that'll teach 'em..

S.O.L: If you consider non-Muslim people in this country as so unsavoury as to not allow your children to integrate with them, then why on earth would you want to live here?

Here! Here!

Kactuz: Is there anything in the Quran that may contribute to the discrimination against Non-Muslims that occurs so often today in Islamic societies -- or anything that so-called radicals can use to justify their violent actions?

Sura's 8:12 & 4:95.

Suseonline,
Did you watch the video? Perhaps you are a supporter of the right of Muslims to murder Christians as this terrorist firstly believed.

Dear Josephus,

Why would you think that Suse or any sane
person, Muslim, Christian, or Jew, support
the rantings of an extremist?

As a form of blogging pointing fingers is
endlessly satisfying to some people.
But as a form of discussion it's pretty hollow
and out of touch with reality.

Foxy: Why would you think that Suse or any sane person, Muslim, Christian, or Jew, support the ranting's of an extremist?

Because all the Authorities on Islam support the Ranting's. I.e., Choundry & our very own Islamic Uni. Professor, Ifitikhar. They say it is so.

Foxy: As a form of blogging pointing fingers is endlessly satisfying to some people.

Hmmm... when it comes to finger pointing, is it OK if the finger pointing is done by our resident Radicals & not the Anti-Radicals?

Foxy: But as a form of discussion it's pretty hollow and out of touch with reality.

Hurmpt, sputk... cark... gulp. Wow, look at that, trying to kill me from afar. Better look up the meaning of the word, love. You've got it Ar$e about face.

Josephus: Did you watch the video?

Couldn't get the link to work. Post it again, please. I've read your book, well not all of it. That'd be a really big slog. It's a large book, 689 Pages, 2 columns & about an 8 Font in NTR. Very old.

William Whiston's AM. "JOSEPHUS" The Excelsior Edition. "The Works of Flavius Josephus," Translated by W. Whiston AM. Professor of Mathematics at Cambridge. Printed by Goodfellow Brothers. London.

Ifitikhar, can you answer this question for us, well me anyway. If you hate British Culture, the People, the Christian Religion & everything else about Britain,

Why do you stay there?
Would you not feel happier surrounded by people who are like yourself?

Just curious. A day I don't learn something is a day I've wasted.