While Captain Abbott and First Mate Morrison have been playing pirates on the high seas, spending millions of dollars hauling a boat load of asylum seekers around the Indian Ocean, thousands of illegal immigrants have been streaming in through our airports.
While it is important to have a strong boarder protection policy, tempered with compassion and humanity, something this government’s policy lacks, it is also important to apply that policy across the whole range of entry points, again something this government has failed to do. While the ‘Usual Suspects’ on the forum prattle on long and hard about the “boat people”, they make no mention of the “plane people”. Something which is now exposing the incompetence of the Abbott Government on immigration.
Leaked documents reveal that national security is being compromised by wide-scale visa roughing and migration rackets, with possible links to terrorism. While the government has pursued the boats with vigor for political reasons, they have totally failed to check the thousands of illegal arrivals by air. Is this another Abbott Government failure? I am afraid it is

No Paul, it is a long term Rudd & Gillard failure.

Well after stopping the boats that could not be stopped and repealing the idiotic tax that could not be repealed its time to fix another Labour/Green failure.

It is fascinating that the instant response from the class warriors here is "it was the other lot".

>>... the incompetence of the Abbott Government on immigration.<<

>>... it is a long term Rudd & Gillard failure<<

You can go on pointing the finger as long as you like, but it won't alter the fact that this latest revelation on the porous nature of our airports has nothing to do with policy, and everything to do with bureaucratic and organizational incompetence.

Making Rudd, Gillard or Abbott responsible for everything ignores the day-to-day work of the Immigration Department and the raft of public servants to whom we pay vast sums of our tax money, who have been signally failing to do their jobs properly. These people do not change, nor does their job description change, each time we have a change of government.

The practice is easily solved.

When someone applies for a Visa they must sign a declaration that they will not claim asylum once they reach Australia.

On the Customs Declaration they receive on the Aircraft before they arrive in Australia everyone must tick a box declaring they are not going to claim Asylum once they are on Australian soil.

If, once they arrive or any time after, they do claim Asylum, they have made a false declaration. They can then be deported.

Jayb,

<<When someone applies for a Visa they must sign a declaration that they will not claim asylum once they reach Australia>>

I'm afraid I dont share your confidence. Even if the immigrants scammers had signed a stack of declarations/undertakings I reckon a plague of human right lawyers and advocates would fudge that they were forced to do it,or they fear for their lives sooooooooooo much they just had to lie.

People like Paul need to wake up --its not about *focusing on this rather than that* -- ALL scams need to be addressed. I have met a lot of people who came to OZ under some special much needed skills arrangement but never had the slightest intention of ever working for any length of time in that field.

Quite right Pericles, it is long past the time we can blame the past Government for what the present Government is doing now.
All our borders need protecting, not just the North west of Australia.

Far more potential immigrants come here by plane than by boat, yet our airports do not have nearly enough staff to adequately check that we don't have 'undesirables' entering or re-entering Australia....especially those that go to war-torn countries to fight alongside terrorists.
We don't need these sorts of people in Australia....

It is also worth noting that the present scandal involves heavy rorting of the 457 visa system by professional criminals. And that they were aided and abetted, allegedly, by compliant Australian companies who turned a blind eye to their activities, importing unskilled workers under the skilled migrant category:

"Leaked confidential company documents, along with statements from sources with detailed knowledge of the company's internal workings, have revealed how it has sponsored many Irish workers as 'project administrators' or in other skilled roles, but employed them as labourers, machine operators and storemen... the firm was 'constantly in breach of immigration laws' by sponsoring unskilled Irish workers when unskilled workers 'could have been sourced locally'.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/visa-fraud-suspects-fled-after-wiring-1m-overseas-20140807-3dbmu.html

So the immigration people at the airport were let down by the bureaucracy that allowed the 457 visa in the first place. Successive governments - not just this one or the last one - have allowed their Departments to featherbed incompetency at almost every level.

Although least of all, it has to be said, on the front line, where the sheer bloated incompetence of the masses of managers and administrators in their comfy nine-to-four-thirty Canberra offices actually manifests itself.

Paul1405 "another Abbott Government failure?"
Bazz "a long term Rudd & Gillard failure"
runner "another Labour/Green failure"

Shockadelic: another Pavlovian Tweedles voters' failure.

While people keeping voting for the Tweedles, immigration, legal or illegal, is never going to be honestly assessed and managed.

Paul,
If you had read the smh articles properly you would see that the government, as far back as 2008, was aware of the fraud taking place. While the labor government was splashing money money everywhere the DIAC was short changed of funds to investigate and combat the fraud.

That is just another example of the Labor incompetence.

If current Minister Morrison deals with this the same as the illegal boats matter then it will be rectified, but the question needs to be asked when did he become aware of the fraud going on. Is the DIAC so full of rats that they did not inform him of the situation. I expect some heads to roll quickly and prosecutions of criminals, including the immigration agents, migrants and employers.

Certainly it is well past time that immigration was drastically reduced. Interesting to see if those migrants who participated in the fraud will be deported and/or their permanent residency visas withdrawn.

I look forward to further statements from the Minister. These crooks have and are taking jobs from Australian citizens. As well as defrauding our taxpayers.

Regarding the thousands of 'plane people' it's been written ----

"Another Abbott government failure"

"A long term Rudd & Gillard failure"

"Another Labor/Green failure"

To which we can add,

"A very long term and hopeless Howard Libs/Nats failure".

The Department of Immigration and Citizenship needs to be reviewed. In particular the employee recruitment practices and contracting of consultants.

So we can all agree, It's a systemic failure by all sides of Politics, backed by an incompetent Public Service. Laws that are written in such vague terms that they are open to interpretation by any of the various species of Law Scavengers that are feeding of the Public Purse.

I offered one solution. It wouldn't be perfect but it was attempt to put another Brick-in-the-Wall.

Good afternoon to you PERICLES...
and to you too SUSEONLINE...

You are absolutely 'spot on' with your remarks, both of you ! Whether it's the interdiction of crime, realistic protection of our borders, or the fraudulent practices occurring in immigration. While you possess a sluggish, sloth like, and more importantly, 'protected' bureaucracy, nothing will ever improve.

Proof of these allegations contained herein, is relatively easy to obtain. Apropos crime; ask any working detective ? Protection of our borders; ask any 3rd or 4th division Customs Officer (these titles may've changed, post my retirement from the police) ? These investigative bodies can accurately and succinctly describe in detail, what is wrong, and what measures are obligatory to fix it !

However, Australian's per se, have this peculiar attitude of, '...she'll be right, don't worry about it...' ? And it's because of this national inertia or lethargy, we'll NEVER EVER change. Furthermore, within the next century, Australia as we know it, will cease to exist. We'll either be Islamicized, or 'owned' by perhaps China !

Why ? As I've already stated herein, it's because of 'our' collective apathy, malaise or enervation ! Please think about it ? All of our politicians are impotent. Too frightened (by political correctness) to effect STRONG change. Gee, we're a weak lot, us Aussies ! Already our enemies walk amongst us, they're part of us, they're already here !

Interestingly, many claims for asylum are by those already studying here who originally came by air and are classified as non-IMA's (non- Irregular Maritime Arrivals)...that is, they didn't arrive by boat.

Hey poirot, I thought you gone to Palestine to join the fighting with Hamas as per Sura (4.95)

You are missing out an a great Forum, "Cutting the grass in the Theatre of War." right up you ally.

poirot: many claims for asylum are by those already studying here who originally came by air and are classified as non-IMA's (non- Irregular Maritime Arrivals.

Yes, that's another lot I would stop from settling. These students come here from 3rd. World Countries to Study. When they have Graduated they should be sent straight back to where they came from to better the plight of people in their own countries.

OK O Sung but try standing up for your nation and see how you go with the entire parliament, the bureaucracy, the unions,the churches, all of the media plus the Police and ASIO working against you.

In a few hundred years hopefully we'll be living in a world that's actually 'civilised'. A world where countries won't exist and where people are free to travel and live anywhere, subject to the obvious health regulations.

Currently we are an uncivilised species, fearful of people not just like us, territorial in our very primitive/animalistic way. 'Us' are our priority, and to hell with 'them', we are a very uncivilised species indeed. It's a perfect environment for the haters and the fearful.

It will take hundreds of years, maybe thousands, but hopefully we will eventually become more intellectually advanced than we are currently, and people will have the freedom to live where they choose.

Jay123,
Eugenics is for dreamers.

Jayb,

"You are missing out an a great Forum, "Cutting the grass in the Theatre of War." right up you ally."

Beautifully constructed sentence....you're coming along just fine.

A few more years and you'll be able to write something articulate.

Hi there JAY OF MELBOURNE...

I did stand up for my country. Six years in the regular Army, thirty two years + in the coppers. How much more do you want from me ?

Jay123,
ISIS believe your version of Utopia. Kill the opposition and we will have peace.

Jay of Melbourne, I didn't mention anything whatsoever to do with that word. Learn to comprehend son. I blame your school teacher.

Josephus, you're an idiot. Only an idiot could interpret my post that way. You, like Jay of Melbourne, should learn how to comprehend.

Of course this is nothing new. People have been 'overstaying' their visas forever. Nothing unique there. And to point fingers at governments of different flavours is a waste of time.

From my recollection it was the Labor Party who started the dog whistle about 'boat people' and the Liberal Party just took it over.

What is deeply concerning is the illegality around the 457 visas. No wonder workers who came here under that scheme have always been too scared to report underpayment and other illegalities.

The 457 visas, as a mother of young people, have never sat easily with me. I do not understand why Australians are not being trained instead. 457 visas should only have been a very short term solution. Until enough Australians were trained. If that had happened, we might not have had a sky rocketing unemployment.

Yvonne,

"From my recollection it was the Labor Party who started the dog whistle about 'boat people' and the Liberal Party just took it over."

Lol!

What they "took over' was Hanson's mantle as a bigotry-monger. Once they saw her scoop up the votes, it was only a matter of time to dispatch her and pinch her platform.

You also forget that Morrison was walking around tooting the boat people horn extremely loudly and often when in Opposition.

Of course, all that changed when he launched his particular brand of sadistic torment - titled Border Farce....

And all of this goes to show that OSB was more about getting a vote than "protecting borders"...which some of us realised a long time ago.

What's the "workable" alternative Poirot? Morrison is a disgusting, revolting individual, but he has popular support. So let's say we get rid of Morrison and the Libs, then we have Labor. The only real difference between the Libs and Labor is that the Libs don't tell us of their savage mistreatment of asylum seekers, whereas Labor will let us know of "their" mistreatment of asylum seekers.

The third alternative? The hopeless Greens, who are guaranteed to send Australia into bankruptcy within a year or two. So the asylum seekers will then be living in a third world nation, Australia.

There is NO workable alternative. Why? Because of the inhumanity of the majority of the Australia population itself.

Yvonne,
Perhaps it has something to do with the myth that there are jobs "Australians won't do"?
There are certainly jobs which Australians won't do for next to nothing like the "students" will, you do understand that there are people working for as little as $50 a day cash in hand in the cleaning, construction and hospitality industries?
Do you wonder why there are so many young Irish and other EU citizens working here under false pretences when they're being undercut in the same way by Eastern Europeans and Asians working for 20 euros a day?

I'll give you an example:
Last year I quoted to solid plaster a small Victorian terrace house in the inner city, there were many complications, the walls were grossly out of plumb and because they'd been stripped of plaster and sealed that meant a more laborious process to cement render, I'd also have had to do a lot of bricklaying to rectify past modifications and there was rising damp which needed to be fixed.
My price was $15,000 inclusive of GST.
The owner cried poor so I gave him a price to fix the most pressing issues, he agreed and the bill was something like $1000 in the end but
while I was working on the house I noticed pinned to the cork board in the kitchen a plastering quote from a Mr Li scrawled on the back of an envelope.
The Chinese price to do the same work was a shade over $5000.
A few weeks later the owner called me up and said he'd had a fight with Mr Li, that he'd removed bricks and left parts of the walls unstable and had generally screwed up the job and could I come and have a look at it?
Sure I said, but I want $5000 to start, $5000 when the render is done and $5,000 on completion.
He said a rude word and hung up on me.

Cont.
So what's up with that?
A dodgy Aussie tradesman would have charged MORE than me and still done inferior work but the Chinese undercut everyone, why?
Seriously, the Chinese will line a house for $4000 and do it in three days, why not charge double and make even more money?
There's no logical answer save for the notion that perhaps, just perhaps they're colluding to drive down prices, run people like me out of business and then monopolise the market.
It's not like they have form for that sort of behaviour right? *cough*Honiara* cough* Lae* *cough*Johannesburg

Paul, can you give us a bit more perspective on this issue. It seems like everyone here is debating it without really understanding just what is going on.

How many people are coming by plane each year and claiming asylum?

How are their claims assessed?

How many people who some might assume to be illegal entrants are just visa overstayers who are eventually forced to go home?
.

<< Josephus, you're an idiot. >>

Haahahaaa Jay123. If that isn’t utter hypocrisy, nothing is!

<< Currently we are an uncivilised species… >>

You speak for yourself there for sure.

You’re a funny fellow. Keep up the entertaining quips!! ( :>)

[This person is a sock puppet who has been barred from the forum for offensive behaviour. If anyone notices someone like this turning-up again can you please notify me? Their previous persona was Jay123. Thanks, GrahamY]

Ludwig,
Below is the first I heard of the story. There has been other related articles.

Those talking about overstayers and illegals are off thread.

Seeing it is about migration, I thought you might be interested.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/terror-touches-down-visa-fraud-migration-crime-rampant-immigration-department-files-reveal-20140806-3d8wj.html

Jay of Melbourne, I think what you are complaining about is capitalism at work. What all the right wing conservatives love. You know, let the market decide what something is worth. The Gina Rhineharts are the first ones to complain Australians want too much money. She famously once observed that people from Africa would be happy with $2.00 per hour. She doesn't care about whether people earn a livable wage. She cares about profits. She loves 457 visas.

It has nothing to do with immigrants. Everyone wants a sustainable income. Even Chinese people. But you know, something is better than nothing. This current government is ideologically committed to following the USA model. It is going to get much worse.

Yvonne,
There's a difference between migrant workers and settlers, a settler has the same expenses as a native, he can't live on $50 a day and he likewise can't compete with people who sleep rough on site or with ten other guys in a two bedroom flat.
Ask a settled immigrant about the Chinese and Indian "students", it's actually the entry level jobs which used to go "new Australians" which have seen the sharpest decline in wages and conditions, the Taxi driving, courier, cleaning and labouring jobs are literally not worth doing if you have to compete with people who pay no tax or with companies who underpay.
This isn't a free market and few high profile "capitalists" are profiting from illegal workers because they're bound by all the same government rules and regulations as everyone else, it's the dodgy low end operators and gangsters who make the money.

Yvonne,
If my memory serves me right, it was Keating that introduced detention of the illegal arrivals. So you are right.

Pauline took up the issue because she recognised that Aussies do not like gate crashers imposing themselves on us. Howard kept imposing tougher measures until they worked and the boats stopped coming. Both Rudd and Gillard both said they would stop the boats but did all they could to encourage them. Now the LNP has stopped the boats and the advocates don't like it one bit. Morrison is doing a terrific job and none have drowned thus far.

Ludwig,
Seems only the Fairfax press has the story at this point about substantial migration fraud. I expect more to come out yet. The smh has it all.

Morrison has called for a report from DIAC and is careful not to say too much until he knows more. So far the press info is about 2008 to 2012 so is in Labor era.

Banjo,

"Morrison is doing a terrific job and none have drowned thus far."

How would you/we know what has "gone down"?

You know nothing of the sort.

Just like you didn't know that Morrison had his henchman take 9 of the 157 and try to teach them to pilot his orange pods all the bloody way to India.

It didn't come about because it wasn't a credible possibility...something that didn't occur to dipstick psycho Morrison until the last minute with the High Court breathing down his neck.

So if he'd succeeded in dumping families in life boats and setting them on course to India - and they'd died..

What would that make him?

And no doubt some here would approve of that outcome - all the while bleating their bulldust line that they roolly roolly care about deaths at sea.

In the 90s I was working part time doing a job that took me to many
smallish restaurants, clubs etc. A large number of these were run by
Chinese and they only had Chinese staff. Only those on the counter spoke English.
In the clubs they contracted to the clubs to run the kitchen & restaurant.
At a couple of them I asked the club manager what happened to the
Australian staff that used to run the kitchen.
They all got the sack. They said they were doing a good job but he had
some problems where he found some kitchen staff were sleeping in the club.
This was before the law about illegal employees I think.

JayI23 "Currently we are an uncivilised species"

No, some of us are civilised and some are "developing".

"It will take hundreds of years, maybe thousands, but hopefully we will eventually become..."

Saints? Angels? Disembodied Pure Love?

We are animals. Tribal, territorial animals. Get over it.

Banjo, I don't often thank you for anything, buts thanks for posting the link to the SMH for Ludwig. I am a daily reader of the SMH @ $2.30 a throw.
Moving on, a troubling spin off from this widespread immigration fraud, must be the rapid rise in Australian unemployment. The troubling Abbott Government have manage to push Australia's "official" unemployment level to a 12 year high of 6.4%. Its well known that the true figure is far higher than that official figure, add in all the hidden unemployed plus the under employed and the figure easily doubles. Not since the years of the incompetent Howard Government with, Abbott as the then Minister for Employment, has Australia seen these terrible numbers.
With no policies or plans in place to tackle the problem of the unemployed, and add in the governments incompetence at tackling illegal migrations and the future looks bleak for the increasing numbers of Australian's without a job.

Paul 1405
You are rather too keen to blame everyone except Labour.

Actually as I have been trying to get you all to realise, it does not
matter who runs the government so long as the cost of energy keeps rising.
The unemployment figure, is as close to certain as you can get, to keep
rising.

While government hides the reports and ignores those it cannot hide
we get closer to the time that it is too late and we will then have
catastrophic levels of unemployment.

There will be just two options, either government will impose
draconian emergency rule or it will be a bottom up restructure where
communities act on their own behalf to cope with common needs.

That is where we are going while government is too frightened to even
acknowledge that there is a problem.

As someone said;
Energy IS the economy Stupid !

Bazz, I do not believe the installation of Shorten and co onto the government benches would do a lot to improve the situation. No more than rearranging the deck chairs did on the 'Titanic'.
Was Rudd and Gillard all that different from Howard and Abbott, I do not believe so. None of them do any more than tinker at the edges, offering a band aid solution at best. They have no great desire for meaningful social or economic change.
You rightly say <<it does not matter who runs the government so long as the cost of energy keeps rising. The unemployment figure, is as close to certain as you can get, to keep rising.>> Both Labor and Liberal are captives of Capitalism and believe the 'free market' will find a way. Abbott is totally destitute of ideas in government to address the issue and Shorten would be blind to it in both eyes.

Piorot,
Since the Siev X sinking, and all the lies the advocates told about that, I do not believe a damn thing the advocates have to say. So if you want others to believe what you say you had better post some credible evidence.

There is no reason not to believe what the Minister says about the boats being stopped. As well Christmas Island locals have not made mention of any illegals arriving. You had no problem in believing what the Labor Ministers said about the boats arriving. Except it is now proven their opinion about being unable to stop the boats has been well and truly scuttled. But that is usual for Labor incompetence. Like their lies about 'push factors'. Me thinks Labor did not want to stop the boats and they could not care less about the deaths at sea.

However full marks to Mr Morrison and we can look forward to further cessation of boat arrivals. I also have much faith in him stopping the immigration fraud currently being reported.

While they may not have known all the details, the politicians of both major parties had to have understood that immigration fraud was taking place on a grand scale and had to have chosen to do nothing about it. The numbers of supposedly skilled permanent and temporary migrants are simply too great to have met all the requirements of serious skill shortages and not displacing Australian jobseekers. From the major parties' point of view, depressing wages and keeping the locals frightened of unemployment aren't bugs, they are features, since that is what their Big Business donors want. More demand also increases the value of their investment properties. In guessing what the politicians will do, it is always best to assume disloyalty and follow the money.

Banjo,

"There is no reason not to believe what the Minister says about the boats being stopped...."

There's every reason to suspect that man of not telling all - and I'm not referring to arrivals on Christmas Island.

My point was regarding your quote that:

".....Morrison is doing a terrific job and none have drowned thus far."

You have no idea what Morrison has been up to on the high seas. The only reason we "knew" about the 157 was that they made personal contact with Australian advocates...otherwise they would probably have been "disappeared" much more fulsomely than Morrison attempted with his dastardly scheme to scuttle them to India in his orange pods.

My point being that in the climate of Morrison's secrecy, it will probably take some time to discover the realities about "on water matters" sometime in the distant future.

Banjo, agree with you.
Re the boat where it was said that they threw the children into the sea.
Of course they did !
Wouldn't you throw your children into the sea if the boat was sinking !
I am sure I would especially if there were rescuers close by.

[This person is a sock puppet who has been barred from the forum for offensive behaviour. If anyone notices someone like this turning-up again can you please notify me? Their previous persona was Jay123. Thanks, GrahamY]

Poirot and Jay123 have finally lost it.
I am afraid that stupidity has finally reached its zenith.
This all about a a fictional boat that does not exist.

The only one responsible is the master who took an unseaworthy ship to sea !

Thats the way it is and no BS can change it !

But..B...B...B...Bazz,

"This all about a a fictional boat that does not exist."

Are you referring the boat that contained 157 Tamil asylum seekers?

Because if their boat didn't exist then they apparently landed in Australia's contiguous zone through exceptionally spooky means.

And who said it was unseaworthy?...since it was "intercepted" before it got here.

The point being made is that if the people on board that boat had not made personal contact with Australian advocates, we would have known "nothing" about them.

Why is it such a stretch to assume that other boats have managed to make it that far without it being publicly known - and if they did, we could ask what became of them?

Truly amazing how intelligent people can be suckered into a "boat people" hysteria by the prevailing LNP/Labor strategy of vote gathering.

Why aren't you up in arms over this?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/immigration-rogue-on-deck-20140808-3de5w.html#ixzz39wANoZa1

"But the government has stalled the release of findings from an inquiry into the 457 visa scheme, with a spokesman for Assistant Immigration Minister Michaelia Cash saying only that the government was considering its recommendations.

Hundreds of pages of leaked and sensitive Immigration Department files obtained by Fairfax Media have revealed that entrenched failings by the agency's investigations arm has allowed migration rackets - including those with links to suspected terrorism and organised crime - to go unchecked."

Poriot, what is the matter with you ?
You asked about boats that no one knows exists;
You said;

otherwise they would probably have been "disappeared" much more fulsomely than Morrison attempted with his dastardly scheme to scuttle them to India in his orange pods.My point being that in the climate of Morrison's secrecy, it will
probably take some time to discover the realities about "on water
matters" sometime in the distant future.

Together with Jay you were on about unknown boats maybe sinking.
You are so politically biased it is unreal !

Poirot: the people on board that boat had not made personal contact with Australian advocates we would have known "nothing" about them.

Which proves the point that these people had been given contact numbers in Australia to ring once they had been picked up. Just because it was an Australian boat that picked in them up International Waters doesn't make it was Australia's responsibility. Say it was a German registered boat, would the German Government be responsible for their Asylum? I don't think so...

poirot: Why is it such a stretch to assume that other boats have managed to make it that far without it being publicly known - and if they did, we could ask what became of them?

Conspiracy Theory? They probably sunk in International Waters before they could contact their Australian Advocates. We will never know.

poirot: Hundreds of pages of leaked and sensitive Immigration Department files obtained by Fairfax Media have revealed that entrenched failings by the agency's investigations arm has allowed migration rackets - including those with links to suspected terrorism and organised crime - to go unchecked."

I agree with you regarding the 457 Visa's. It has always been a racket. Run by Refugee Advocates for Big Business, in the main. I notice.

How come you aren't into that other Forum I mentioned. Or are you, under another name?

Jayb,

"How come you aren't into that other Forum I mentioned. Or are you, under another name?"

Just to spite you, Jayb.

And....one can only take so much irksome interaction on any given forum...and no doubt that thread is full of it.

Bazz,

Using reason, it's a valid assumption that Morrison's secrecy is there for a reason.

It's also valid to surmise that the Oz public is being kept in the dark and fed BS....especially in light of the serial lying taking place in every other facet of this inept excuse for a govt.

poirot: It's also valid to surmise that the Oz public is being kept in the dark and fed BS....especially in light of the serial lying taking place in every other facet of this inept excuse for a govt.

That's par for the course of any Government in the World. That's why they call us Mushrooms.

Poirot: Just to spite you, Jayb.

Awww... No fair.

Poirot: And....one can only take so much irksome interaction on any given forum...and no doubt that thread is full of it.

Well we do have some doozy Islamic Radicals there, that's for sure. I thought you could bring a sense of reasonable into the discussion. ;-)

Poirot,
I agree with you about the article regarding fraud by 'immigration agents'.

Everyone should be raising hell about this. I am disappointed that there was not more in todays smh and it looks as though the info is exclusive to the Fairfax press.

To me it raises the whole question about the need for immigration agents anyway, who apparently charge for their services. I recall some years ago, there was at least one agent that was demanding sex from vulnerable women for his assistance.

I trust all the issues relative to immigration fraud will be subject to serious investigation. There are many questions to be answered by political leaders and bureaucrats.

Lester1, you may want to consult an optometrist.
One of your eyes sees brown and the other black.

Yeh Lester,

By making comments like that you are only feeding the fantasies of the Left.

Dear Shocker,

We get it.

According to you, in this country -
"Australian" means white.
Everybody else has to hyphenate.

Going back to the thread..

There have always been serious deficiencies in the assessment of migrants. Immigration has never had the staff and intel to cope with a large influx of migrants, including the economic migrants who use people smugglers as their travel agents. Consider what happened immediately after WW2 and after Vietnam, but the continually records being set in immigration over the years guaranteed the sieve was ineffective through lack of skilled resources in Immigration.

How else did Australia end up with organised crime like the Mafia or 5T? What about the ethnic gangs taking over the bikies? They can't even ride a bike, but they are good at thuggery and to them life is very cheap. Now there are the feared 'Odessa' (Russian) Mafia with its highly educated bosses, flat flexible structure to take advantage of opportunity, and horrendous violence.

What has changed to make things far worse is the introduction of the US 'Spoils System' where the incoming government puts its own in senior positions (and the recipients of patronage bring their own in as well); the weakening of central controls over recruitment, promotion and reclassifications; and the inevitable favouritism and advancement of the less competent through affirmative action directives.

Did I mention corporatisation?

There are many serious risks that are not being controlled effectively and sometimes because the inherent risks and consequences were deliberately underrated to suit the demands of the minister of the day.

Nether side of politics and the lunar Greens as well, would want any real independent scrutiny of immigration policy and administration. Better to play this as an aberration.

There remain many talented and ethical people in the Senior Executive Service of the federal public service, but every day they are being frustrated (or displaced), or are leaving of their own accord to protect their sanity.

My, "but the continually records being set in immigration over the years guaranteed the sieve was ineffective through lack of skilled resources in Immigration"

should be,

"but the continually HIGHER records being set in immigration over the years guaranteed the sieve was ineffective through lack of skilled resources in Immigration"

Well boys and girls, it will be interesting to see what, if anything, the smh can come up with from their 'thousands of pages of documents' they claim to have in relation to immigration fraud.

The Labor opposition has not uttered a word as yet. Surely the former immigration ministers have some knowledge of the frauds. The smh claimed reports were made to the government (Labor) and a couple of PM briefings. Could it be that the frauds took place under Labor watch and the opposition is now hoping it will all go away.

I reckon it is a fair bet that a number of DIAC staff had to work this weekend preparing the urgent report for the Minister. If smh has it right, a number of staff will lose their jobs and probably face charges along with some outsiders. Visas of some migrants may also be cancelled. I suspect the Minister will want answers to a number of questions by tomorrow morning and I do not think he will be in a good mood.

The fact is the 'Usual Suspects' on OLO have been caught out on this one. The lads continually sung the praises of Abbott and Morrison, as some kind of masterminds when it come to stopping illegal immigration, not so. While that pair of bozo's have being spending millions scouring the high seas for boats, plane after plane of illegal migrants have been landing at all our major airports. What do you thing of Abbott and Morrison now? Have they been caught with their pants down so to speak. I think so.

It's really got nothing to do with whatever Government is in Power at the time. It's the Public Service & the hangers on that is the problem. No Government has had the guts to tackle them so they have run roughshod of who is & who isn't allowed depending on the people involved. If they are all Greeniefied then they will try to get everyone they can in & allow the criminal element to get away with what they do. If they are opposed to the Party in power they will do everything they can to get around that Parties Policies.

Don't be so silly Paul.

There will be an evidence trail to those who have used these con tactics, & those who helped them. It will not be too hard to find them if the government get serious, now they know.

Any of these people who break the law will be easily identified, & deported, something which is more difficult with the illegal boat people, now Labor & your lot have let them in.

Torres Strait & Cape york Peninsula appear to be the new pathway into Australia. Huge Dollars are being spent on so-called border protection but it remains to be seen if the effectiveness of deterrence warrants the expense. As most border protection staff are mere bureaucrats who get to spend their time outdoors whilst enjoying very nice employment conditions it is not unreasonable to have concerns about the value for taxpayers money. I fail to see why our armed forces aren't playing a greater, more visible role in Border protection.

<<I fail to see why our armed forces aren't playing a greater, more visible role in Border protection.>>
Indi, what do you want them to do? Shoot down the jumbo jets as they approach Tullamarine and Mascot etc, cause that's where the illegal migrants are streaming in, unchecked.

Paul1405, "Shoot down the jumbo jets as they approach Tullamarine and Mascot etc, cause that's where the illegal migrants are streaming in, unchecked"

Sure makes it difficult to understand why those illegal migrants would use criminal people smuggling gangs to make the trip by fishing boat and paying a substantial mark-up on airfare for the privilege.

Why take the risks? Why litter the sea with their documents instead of travelling in air-conditioned comfort and fronting up at the gate?

What is the Greens' spin on that? Greens' Sarah Hyphenated Hyphen should 'come clean', as she is forever demanding of others.

Paul1405, did the illegals start coming by air in October 2013 ?
You really do have a problem with reality.

If I said they started coming by air in October 2007 would you accept that ?

Aaagghhhh, what a waste of time !

Abbott and co put themselves up as the guru's of boarder protection and the OLO 'Usual Suspects' did nothing but sing their praises. On this and many other policies, what a bunch of fraudsters this government has proven to be. Instead of being boarder protection guru's they have shown themselves to be total incompetents. Just take a look at the shambles boarder protection has become, both on the sea and in the air.

Paul, are you on your unreality pills again ?
If they can repeat the boats success with the planes what will you say then ?

Sorry, I get it now, you want them to fail that is why you think they failed.
Now I see !

take a look at the shambles boarder protection has become, both on the sea and in the air.
Paul1405,
I am looking & I don't see as much shambles as I saw three years ago. I also see a lot of Labor & Green cronies not doing their jobs to help solve the situation.

Bazz, I didn't help put these incompetent fools into government, no doubt you did, along with the rest of the OLO 'Usual Suspects' I can't be held in anyway responsible if you voted for these duds!

Indi <<I am looking & I don't see>> too right, you are always looking and not seeing, I do my best to point you in the right direction, but you keep thinking bad thoughts, like Abbott's a good bloke.! You are like Abbott and Morrison, while your so busy peering out the back door, ever vigilant for a handful of asylum seekers in a leaky boat, thousands of illegals are streaming in the front door on jumbo jets! What do you say to that?

You can't say you weren't told. The Greens have been warning you of the serious problems that the Howard government and others, including the Labor Party, have been creating with immigration. While focusing on boats for political reasons they have been ((purposely) missing the planes. They have another agenda that wants to see large numbers of unemployed!

You are right there, Paul, but how is Labor different? We had immigration high enough to give us a high of 2.2% population growth under Rudd. Both major parties are working for the same Big Business interests, and they want bigger markets, easy money from real estate speculation and the consequent big bank loans, and a flooded labour market to give them cheap, compliant labour that they don't have to train. Of course attention is being focused on the asylum seekers:

"One of the reasons why it’s so important to maintain that policy [stopping the boats] is that the more people think our borders are being controlled the more supportive they are in the long term of high levels of immigration. Australia needs a high level of immigration. I’m a high immigration man. I practiced that in government. And one of the ways that you maintain public support for that is to communicate to the Australian people a capacity to control our borders and to decide who and what people and when come to this country."

John Howard talking with Fran Kelly on the Radio National Breakfast program on Wednesday, 29 January 2014

On the other hand, asylum seeker numbers can snowball very quickly, as in Europe. According to Home Office figures, Britain had 499,000 asylum claims between 1997 and 2004, not counting dependants who arrived later. Of these, about 23% were found to be genuine, including after appeal, and relatively few of the failed asylum seekers could be deported. See

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/9.14

The Greens have been warning you of the serious problems
Paul1405,
You mean like that silly moo of a leader of yours who demands we let everybody in ?
Doesn't sound like warnings to a serious problem to me.

Yep Individual, well said.

The Greens have been spruiking open door immigration in various guises for a long time. It must thrill the hearts of the people smugglers everytime Sarah or Christine or Adam give one of their "come-on down" spiels.

Maybe Sarah, Christine & Adam are People Smugglers. They certainly supports all their efforts.

Actually, SPQR, the Greens are not into an open door immigration policy at all. Last I checked they didn't want any, or much immigration at all, because it means more pressure on the environment.

It's the economic model of growth that supports immigration. It's one of the primary reasons why the Greens and Labor do not see eye to eye on policy issues. Both the ALP and LNP support immigration to keep on boosting Australia's population numbers. No population growth, no economic growth.

The Greens, by the way, are not the only ones who think that Australians are being hoodwinked by the dog whistling of both the ALP and the LNP regarding asylum seekers who come by boat. It's laughable really if the national obsession with desperate people coming by boat was not so very embarrassing.

yvonne,

Bob Brown struck a chord with the public when he dismissed Rudd's 'Big Australia' and a similar statement with practical action would be welcomed now. Among its senators the Greens seem to have differing views from that, although that may be political pragmatism because the ethnic lobby is very strong.

<Greens want immigration cut
February 1, 2010
Immigration should be cut to keep Australia's population sustainable, the Australian Greens say.

Greens leader Bob Brown said most people did not support the federal government's plan to boost population from 22 to 36 million by 2050.

"Most people think our lifestyle is good, but some of the bigger cities are bursting at the seams," Senator Brown told reporters in Canberra on Monday.

"We're at record high immigration and it's got to be reviewed.

"I think immigration levels should settle down much lower than they are at the moment, without cutting humanitarian immigration."

Last financial year, 184,000 migrants were granted entry to Australia.>
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/greens-want-immigration-cut-20100201-n8f8.html

@Yvonne,

<<Actually, SPQR, the Greens are not into an open door immigration policy at all. Last I checked they didn't want any, or much immigration at all,>>

That's what they tell the plebs.But their antics speak louder than their PR releases.

1) They are pushing for us to open the gates on a whole new reservoir of asylum scammers -- they are committed to accepting "climate refugees". Even Green Paul wasnt aware of the implications of that one!

2) And the Greens never have any real desire to stop anyone boating in. At least Labor and Libs can say "enough, no more". The Greens would rubber stamp anyone who dropped in and hummed the right tune.

Europe has about 50 million immigrated muslims with approximately 80% on welfare. Nowhere else has the Greens had such influence. They hate the natural family with a passion. Can't believe anything they tell you.

Yvonne,

Some Greens (including the South Australian branch) have said good things about stopping massive population growth, but the Greens never protested when the major parties boosted immigration. Kevin Rudd even got us up to 2.2% population growth in 2008 without a peep from the federal Greens, and they never said anything when Julia Gillard lied about her population policy until after she was elected.

Even if the Greens managed to get legal immigration down to net zero and stopped ordinary illegal immigration via fraud, an effectively open borders policy for anyone arriving in an irregular manner and claiming to be a refugee would wipe out all of the benefits. See the link in my previous post. If a failed asylum seeker has destroyed his travel documents and identification, it can be impossible to prove where he came from, and the home country can refuse to cooperate with deportation even if his nationality is not in dispute. Therefore, he gets to stay, unless we are prepared to keep him in detention.

So far as GDP is concerned, immigration probably does boost total GDP, but has little or no benefit for GDP per capita. In their 2006 report on immigration, the Productivity Commission modelled that doubling skilled migration would increase GDP per capita by less than $400, with that extra money going almost entirely to the owners of capital and the migrants themselves, while wages were depressed for the rest of the population. GDP per capita in Japan (with a shrinking population) has actually been growing faster than that of the US.

http://www.economist.com/node/10852462

A large scale rogue employer of illegal workers has been uncovered by the CFMEU and who is footing the bill for those illegal immigrants, none other than the taxpayer of NSW through state LIBERAL GOVERNMENT. Explains a lot, it certainly does.
Workers are fortunate they have Brian Parker from the NSW CFMEU working to expose this crooked activity by employers in the building industry! We need a Royal Commission to look into this migration fraud.

none other than the taxpayer of NSW through state LIBERAL GOVERNMENT
Paul1405,
How & how much ? Anything more substantial ?

Indi, The State Government projects, the Pond Public School and the Blacktown Mount Druitt Hospital's new Clinical Services Building. Are just two projects that have been uncovered as employing illegal Chines workers.

What the Minister had to say after being caught out;

"The NSW government is committed to ensuring that all workers are safe and receive what they are entitled to," said Mr Perrottet.

"Breaches are a serious matter and I urge anyone who has concerns to come forward and make a formal complaint."

As the person with ultimate responsibility for the projects should not the Minister ensure that workers are legal? he has a bloody big department to make sure, does he not. I suspect that is how these people like it.

Paul & others, I am sure we are united that those 453 visa have become
a joke and it is time they were terminated.
There is almost no need for them now that the structural work on the
mining fields is concluding.
For all we know they may be working on stopping the flyins already.
We know they are aware of the problem, you only need to watch
Border Security program on TV.
Their problem is getting biometric data for incoming persons.
Overstaying students of course are another problem. It is a matter of
actully finding them. They are hidden by their national community groups
and paid in cash in the same community.
By using "megadata" etc if they do anything like buy a car get a drivers
licence, buy property, or insurance and compare against ATO records
they should be findable.
There are a host of other sources such as rental bond records, electricity bills, bank accounts etc etc.
All it needs is to bypass privacy rules and have a specifically
designed computer program to produce a list of overstayers and addresses.
Another list could be a list of non-persons that have cars, rent
payments and bonds, Opel cards, bank accounts etc etc.
A non person is someone that is not a legal immigrant, does not have
a birth record, does not have school records or has an issued death certificate.

But of course Sarah Hansen-Young would be appalled at the very thought.

It is now 7 days since the Fairfax press published article related to the immigration fraud and as yet we have heard nothing from the Minister OR the Opposition.

This is from the article first published.
http://www.theage.com.au/national/brokenborders?rand=1407336867393

The Minister called for an urgent report from the DIAC, so where is it and have the press been badgering him for comments?

Why have other media outlets not taken up the issue?

Why have not the Fairfax press continued with more articles? If one reads the stuff provided, there is plenty of material for follow up stories.

It is all very strange as the alleged frauds are extensive and have earned some persons millions of dollars.

The media has previously dogged the Minister about 150 illegals on board a boat and yet this fraud involves thousands of immigrants, students, 457 visa workers, migration agents and DIAC staff.

So why is the Opposition not screaming and the Greens making a fuss?

Bazz, you are aware that selling Education to overseas students is the 3rd biggest export market for Australia aren't you? And seeing we have a government in place who does not particularly care about Australian students, does not want to spend money on education, but do like the money that education earns and want to increase that, I doubt very much there will be any curtailing of overseas students anytime soon.

It is a marvelous back way to migrate to Australia. John Howard perfected that concept.

Yvonne: Bazz, you are aware that selling Education to overseas students is the 3rd biggest export market for Australia aren't you?

These overseas students coming from 3rd. World Countries to Australia to get an education should be forced to go back to their home Country to lift it out of its 3rd World situation. They should not be allowed to stay.

These overseas students coming from 3rd. World Countries to Australia to get an education should be forced to go back to their home Country to lift it out of its 3rd World situation. They should not be allowed to stay.
Jayb,
Spot-on. Give them a wheelbarrow & a shovel as a bonus to take home.

I've just read through the Sievers report and either we "racists" are psychic or we were right all along, by this account 90% of irregular maritime arrivals set out to commit fraud and "leaky boats" are a safe and easy way for criminals to enter Australia.
But you lefties can relax, the government isn't going to do anything about it, for people like Abbott it's always an advantage to have a few rapists, murderers and war criminals at your disposal, Menzies had the likes of Jaroslav Stetsko's ABN and Fabijan Lovokovic and his Ustashe operatives to enforce "migrant discipline'.

Yvonne, I have no problem with students.
The problem is those that come do hairdressing course and such like
jokes, and after the first one or two days are never seen again.
I think they did crack down on those, but it needs constant maintenance.
Then there are the tourists, they just never leave and previous
contacts such as friends and relatives conceal them.
Many could survive just using a friends name and address until a clever
program found someone with two ages or two rental bonds and no
birth certificate etc etc.
Everyone leaves a trace somewhere.
Just doing a search for people with no birth certificate and no legal
visa would produce a very interesting list.
Two phone numbers for the same name & address ringing each other.

There are lots of things that can be done like that and if privacy gets
in the way, then move it out of the way.

desperate people coming by boat
yvonne,
I don't think you'd find too many Australians who would object to harbouring desperate refugees. I don't think they're the subject of the thread. Those who come by plane i.e. tourists & then try to stay aren't the fanatic types as many of those that come by boat. Why is it that many claim refugee status yet once here they refuse to refute the doctrine that supposedly made them refugees in the first place.
One would think that if they so desire to come to a western, sort of christian society because it appeals to them, then they would at least try to adopt that society's way of life because it apparently is more desired than that of the several countries they pass through ?

Yvonne,

Exporting education only looks profitable for Australia because the people who benefit from running this immigration scam can privatize the profits and socialize the costs. As a simple example, imagine that you have a business. You prefer to hire temporary migrants on 457 visas to hiring local people or existing migrants: you don't have to train the temporary workers, and they don't dare complain about low wages or bad/unsafe working conditions because they want you to sponsor them for permanent residence. Most of the other employers do the same as you, and eventually your city outgrows its natural water supply. More than 80% of migrants end up in capital cities.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/research/migration-in-australia/chapter-four.pdf

Your city can get its water from a desalination plant, but they are very expensive and prodigious consumers of electricity. The desalinated water is 4 to 6 times as expensive as dam water. You get the profits from the 457 visas, but the extra cost of the water is shared with everyone else in the community.

The same goes for other utilities. The cost of electricity has doubled in the last 7 years. The cost of housing has skyrocketed. It was recently reported that the median house price in Sydney has now passed $800,000. Congestion steals large amounts of time from commuters that they could be spending with family and friends.

http://www.drive.com.au/roads-and-traffic/sydney-among-the-western-worlds-worst-cities-for-traffic-congestion-report-reveals-20130410-2hkxc.html

I would like to see honest accounting that includes all of these factors.

The main culprit for the excessive cost of our universities was the decision in 1988 to turn all our colleges of advanced education (CAEs) into universities as part of the Dawkins reforms. Before then, Australia had a reasonable number of universities for a country of its size plus a network of CAEs that gave basic undergraduate degrees and various vocationally oriented diploma courses. Because the CAEs didn't do research or give advanced degrees, they were very much cheaper to run than universities. It is now politically impossible to reverse this "reform".

It is now politically impossible to reverse this "reform"
Divergence,
We still have a small chance to repair the Labor damage by introducing a non-military National Service. NS could be used especially for those who donn't like working & they in turn could be reformed by those who do have a sense of resposibility. Those who refuse can be thrown into work camps & supervised by the decent ones. That includes boat people & illegal immigrats that obtain residency here. Prohibit any religious activities in the two years of NS. Unless we get tougher we'll lose.