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The Forum > General Discussion > Gammy - Surrogacy and IVF should be shut down

Gammy - Surrogacy and IVF should be shut down

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The recent case where an Australian couple left a child (of a twin) alone in Thailand, but took their twin back to Australia is nothing short of appalling.

Where are these couple's moral values? I've seen comments online sympathise with this Australian couple. Why?

Many however think differently. Over $100,000 has been donated online. I even made a donation.

This overseas birth sector, (Surrogacy and IVF) is nothing more than a business and should be shut down worldwide.
Posted by NathanJ, Saturday, 2 August 2014 6:34:21 PM
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I believe there is nothing wrong with surrogacy, as long as it is well regulated.

There aren't much regulations in this trade in Thailand, so that is how this Australian couple got way with shirking their responsibilities in caring for their disabled twin son.

The Thai surrogate stated she was willing to carry these babies for financial gain , because she lives in a poor country and has two children to feed.
The prospective parents wanted a baby and were willing to pay for all the surrogates expenses. It should be a win-win situation.

They should have taken both babies though.
Mind you, there are parents who have their own disabled child who abandon them too.
It is a hard to understand unless you have a disabled child yourself.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 2 August 2014 10:54:52 PM
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What will the Abbott Government do about this ? This has the potential to finally start getting our Laws in order. Those parents need to be made to support the child & carer & that support needs to be part of the will they make up.
The do-gooders are a bit slow off the blocks here I noticed.
Posted by individual, Sunday, 3 August 2014 7:49:09 AM
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It is the biological parents responsibility, the surrogate mother is in no way responsible for this outcome.

The law needs to be changed but don't expect much from Abbott, this is not a World Stage Grandstanding Opportunity.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 3 August 2014 9:53:36 AM
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It is another area where science is ahead of the law and there are people who are taking advantage of that fact, although I do not believe there is any way to successfully regulate surrogacy.

As an indicator of the ethical problems, I am reminded of the comment by a member of a gay couple in the UK who said that through surrogacy he could get the best infants that money could buy. He did not even feel the need to withdraw or moderate his statement. Designer children available to anyone with the money. Any concerns about that folks? Perhaps not, the 'Progressives' believe in me, me, me and couldn't give a rats about the child.

That brings into focus the full gambit of difficult ethical and moral issues, with one of the most serious being the risk of children becoming stateless persons, although feminists might only be offended by 'women's bodies being used', a chance to lay the blame at the feet of men.

I have little sympathy for a woman who brings a severely handicapped child into the world for everyone else to take care of, along with her of course. There are scans. Where the general consensus of the community and laws allow it, thousands of healthy foetuses are being aborted anyhow. Of course the problem with surrogacy is that the mother might decide to go ahead anyway. That is another risk of surrogacy.

It is the usual condition that the media and the ever-upset talking heads (shame ABC, shame, you can do better) are sensationalising the subject story without bothering to sort the available facts. Hey, it sells to a dumbed down audience.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 3 August 2014 10:34:12 AM
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'A girl next time'

Designer babies for the well off.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/britains-first-gay-dads-planning-768457

However there are thousands of children already available for adoption world-wide.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 3 August 2014 10:47:39 AM
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Suseonline,

"It is a hard to understand unless you have a disabled child yourself." As a person who currently has two medical conditions myself - you don't just 'abandon' a child when you go overseas - and come from Australia. This couple is not poor.

Personally, I have to 'look after myself' as a single adult. It's not easy as I have Epilepsy for example.

This mother will have to raise this child herself - and she is poor.

As for onthebeach showing no sympathy, do you care for more than just yourself?
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 3 August 2014 4:19:00 PM
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There may be an argument in support of surrogacy. However I'm not sure that argument can be supported when there are so many unwanted babies in the World which require adoption.
This seems a rather disturbing case where rich people from the developed World have exploited a women from the third for their benefit. When things have not worked out to their satisfaction this is the result. An innocent human being abandoned to its fate.
Beach makes a good point << It is another area where science is ahead of the law and there are people who are taking advantage of that fact, although I do not believe there is any way to successfully regulate surrogacy.>> Morally the "parents" should have taken both children, but they did not without breaking any laws.
I am myself an "adopted" grandfather, where by, my partners son and daughter-in-law, have recently, legally adopted her sisters fifth child, their one and only. A beautiful boy who's name in Maori translates into 'The Gift'and everything so far has worked out rather well. In Maori culture most people have a very good extended family, one mother and father, sisters and brothers etc, but also lots of uncles, aunties and cousins. Very valuable when it comes to families supporting each other. My partner spends a lot of her time counselling, supporting and advising many of the younger members of her extended family both here and in NZ.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 3 August 2014 5:04:10 PM
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OTB and Paul, you talk about all these babies being available for adoption overseas.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to adopt a baby from overseas?

A friend of mine took 7 years to finally hold her baby from China in her arms.
It is a long, often heartbreaking process that costs tens of thousands of dollars.

NathanJ, I am not having a go at disabled people, but merely pointing out that it is a lifetime commitment to take on a child with Down's Syndrome, with their often considerable mental and physical problems that will often mean putting any other children you have a far second.

Not everyone is up for that challenge, and in many cases the mother is left to raise the child alone....
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 August 2014 8:27:16 PM
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Not everyone is up for that challenge, and in many cases the mother is left to raise the child alone...? Well sorry the woman in this case has.

As for Paul1405 stating "I do not believe there is any way to successfully regulate surrogacy" - but for some strange reason I am told (via the media) this couple lives in Western Australia.

So somebody knows something about them - A Federal or Government department? When I went to make a donation towards this child and their mother - I read people's comments on the website. They were all in support of the parent.

So I knew there will be the ability to legislative change on this matter - and it will be easy.

Why? Because it won't be a battle between various groups or a case of "one up-manship". The extreme left or right won't have a case to go with or those wanting to take a token pat on the head approach will be out of the picture.

One person's online comments highlights the potential shocking reality for the future: "When the other child, finds out the truth, they will never be able to respect their parents. In fact, I would imagine this will completely destroy their entire family and any possible relationship with this child (and any others) they have had or will have."

So what can we can end up with, with no groups and newspaper columnists able to push a barrow? Good change and quality legislation.

A first time, for a long time in Australia - and it has taken this horrible incident for the potential for real change.
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 3 August 2014 10:42:59 PM
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NathanJ, why blame just the adoptive mother?
We don't know the whole story do we?
How do we know it wasn't the adoptive father who was the one who refused to take the boy?

I have worked as a community nurse and a midwife for many years, and believe me, there are far more mothers out there looking after their disabled kids alone at home than there are fathers....
Posted by Suseonline, Sunday, 3 August 2014 11:09:31 PM
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How can you believe that surrogate policy is not being agonised over continually by some of the best minds and most caring people in the country, and in other countries too?

It is complex for all sorts of considerations come into play.

Perhaps Google a little to find interviews of policy-makers and people working in the field. Heaps have been done on it and as far as I am aware, there is no magic policy bullet.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 3 August 2014 11:09:58 PM
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Suseonline,

Sorry, my post above was in reply to NathanJ. I did not see your post before posting.
Posted by onthebeach, Sunday, 3 August 2014 11:18:37 PM
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Suseonline,

The basic facts we do know:

1. A child is living that has a medical condition they will have to live with for the rest of their lives

2. The child is in Thailand now. If either member of the couple were concerned they should have got professional advice and assistance. Then people might have some sympathy.

To give you an example of this, one day I was at my parents house (about 7 years ago), I had extreme stomach pain that wouldn't go away - and I was yelling. My sister then on the phone explained to the ambulance service what had happened. I eventually found out I had fallen onto my parents tiled flooring and badly hurt myself after having an Epileptic seizure, I was allergic to Epilepsy medication I was on (taking since about eight years of age). I now have a bone density problem to manage, and I am on six medications a week - I take twice daily.

What this couple did is going back to the days of the past when people with medical and social problems were left in homes and other insidious places in Australia - by parents who didn't want them or felt they couldn't keep them - but that was a different time (and a past we can't change) - but in 2014? A full investigation should occur into this case, like we have seen here - otherwise we could end up with more cases like we have seen in Thailand - and be in a de-facto system to the previous policies that existed in Australia.

In terms of reform people won't disagree with major legislative reform and you only have to visit sites like:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-02/outrage-as-australian-parents-desert-surrogate-mother/5643074.

The site has a rating system on it - and the people who submitted comments in favor of the parents got very low ratings. Legislation will be properly debated - because left and right wing people, groups and newspapers won't be able to win the debate. Only the natural parent and the child will win.
Posted by NathanJ, Monday, 4 August 2014 12:46:21 AM
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NJ,

The single biggest problem is that surrogacy overseas is illegal in NSW if not all Aus. The problem then is that one cannot regulate something that is illegal.

At birth the "adoptive" parents had no right to either child, and if the birth mother chose to keep them, they would have no rights. On the other side of the coin, they had no legal obligation to take both or even one child.

The only way to protect against this case is to make surrogacy legal, and lay down strict guidelines for rights and responsibilities.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 4 August 2014 6:02:23 AM
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I've tried to get some more detailed information on this topic. A lot were www.com = commercial. They all looked like nice family friendly business sites.

However one site I found was more detailed and looked at both sides of this international matter. One important point says:

"Despite the growth in international surrogacy, there remains no international regulation of surrogacy or minimum standards to which states must adhere. Moreover, there are no international conventions, or reciprocal arrangements for the recognition of the legal parentage of a child."

http://www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed87773
Posted by NathanJ, Monday, 4 August 2014 12:21:56 PM
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Activists aim at embarrassing politicians. They know that governments are short term and politicians are easily bullied by media sensationalism into unstatesmanlike, band-aid populist 'solutions'.

Regulation of inter-country surrogacy is very like Oz gun control: only the respectable, law-abiding, well-intentioned, public-spirited citizens can be expected to comply. BUT they are NOT the ones who can be expected to break laws and act in anti-social, selfish ways. Good citizens are already complying anyhow through their own personal ethics, principles and goodwill to others.

I notice that no-one is talking about the inconvenient truth that it is a rare nation indeed that will willingly give away its healthy young, even where the country is teeming with overpopulation.

I see no effective remedy where $$ changes hands. I do not believe that the best interests of the child will be guaranteed either. Criminals break laws, that is what they are in business to do. Ethics? Principles? What was that too about $$ buying the child you want? See my earlier link,

A girl next time
Designer babies for the well off.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/britains-first-gay-dads-planning-768457

More laws? So what?

Some want the Australian taxpayer to cough up for a salve for their heart worn of their sleeve. What is going to be interesting though will be the copy cats now that there is large dollars in it and just from public donations. That is the problem isn't it? That laws will not ever deter the quick-witted opportunists and crooks from taking advantage, even where the original case was legitimate. There will always be those who stretch the envelope too.

What diplomacy, the necessary agreements and finally well drafted regulations can do is ease the path of good citizens who make good parents and are willing to be accountable. I do not believe for a moment that laws could prevent what has just been reported (goodness knows what was actually agreed and went down in that case) and nor could there ever be an effective remedy where a person does not want a child.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 4 August 2014 2:48:33 PM
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I would never criticise anyone involved in this situation.
Probably the mother is in her 40s, maybe late 40s. Which means she will
die when her son is about 40 with no reliable person to care for him
for the next 40 years of his life.

It is a lifelong burden that you cannot put down just by dying.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 4 August 2014 2:59:33 PM
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http://www.phuketgazette.net/thailand-news/Mother-warns-against-surrogacy-donations-pour-for/32411#ad-image-0

There is plenty in there that should advise against a quick political 'fix', which would likely have unforeseen negative consequences anyhow, one being that it would presume the cooperation and agreement of foreign countries.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 4 August 2014 3:20:34 PM
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Beach, I agree with a lot of what you say. Trying to make it political by attacking the progressives is rather shallow and insincere on your part. to say <<the 'Progressives' believe in me, me, me and couldn't give a rats about the child.>> Why not claim these "parents" are members of The Greens? You say <<There are scans...thousands of healthy foetuses are being aborted anyhow.>> Now there is a lot of concern for the child, bump him off to, after all he is what he is, and not one of the healthy ones, what the heck just one more, and he is not even "healthy" who cares, not you.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 7:52:56 AM
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Just to complicate matters channel nine are apparently reporting that the father in this case has a criminal record and served jail time for indecent acts upon a child under 13 in the 1990's.
That would explain why the couple would not be able to adopt or foster children.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 2:09:38 PM
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As expected, the media did their usual tabloid thing: eggbeater and never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

The audience who go along with it to get their daily buzz, 'Ain't it awful?', from tabloid pulp are little better. Why allow others to do your thinking for you, people?

Interesting that the 'fact checking' taxpayer-funded national broadcaster employs highly paid talking head celebrities to add their own BS 'take' on things.

Just get the facts ABC and report. You don't need those exorbitantly paid celebrity 'reporters' and news anchors to do that.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 2:24:11 PM
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I've read some information on websites on this matter - and it's appalling. That's why I have called for a full independent investigation.

That is why I have also called for law reform in this area - which is achievable - as the matter will not simply "go away" until this occurs either.

I've seen some information on websites for example (one which shows supposedly where the Australian couple's home is in a photograph) for example. Who knows what someone could do?

We cannot have situations like what has happened here, continue into the future. It is not in anybody's interests. Let's say for example the child living in Australia reads some of these newspaper stories online in the future? The parent's in this case, are going to have to face up to the reality of the situation. It's not going to help them or their family - as I stated in a previous post, from another person comments.

All in our Federal Parliament should be taking action as soon as possible - and it can be done as groups or factions in the system won't have any pathway to go down.
Posted by NathanJ, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 6:32:19 PM
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Beach you are paranoid about the ABC, they do a excellent job for Australia, you should be thankful. Yes Jay the bio father is a pedophile, is his name Rolf Harris? The "parents" are from Bumbury WA, I feel a tar and feathering is just around the corner. The tabs will have their names before long! I'm sure 60 Minutes has got the cheque book out already. There there's the Womens mags, they'll have an interview with the maid or Prince Harry's butler who'll do a tell all on it! Then there's the mini series, staring Schapelle playing the dope smoking mum!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 9:34:12 PM
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Paul,
Yes of course child molestation and the buying and selling of children are a big joke to people like you.
Why is it that Liberals and Leftists profess to abhor slavery but support the buying and selling of children as progressive? It's a big deal for "progressives" when an adult woman born in Thailand is confined to a brothel and her debt or contract is transferred to new owners but the buying and selling of Thai born children is perfectly fine
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 10:16:45 PM
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Jay, its not a big joke, but I see this turning into a 5 minute circus. What concern would a National Socialists like yourself have for the non whites of Asia!
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 10:24:29 PM
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For those who don't want to focus on an in depth assessment of this topic in terms of any couple in question - in relation to surrogacy - and stray out to other elements, that do not apply - you are simply not going to get anywhere - in terms of broad public support.

The Federal Government is going to have to bring in legislative reform, and those who want to fight or play amongst themselves and leave the question of a disabled child, who needs to looked after in Thailand out of the debate - you won't win your case.
Posted by NathanJ, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 10:50:17 PM
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Nathan, now the Thai government say they will prosecute the birth mother because she was paid. Seems its illegal in Thailand to accept payment for surrogacy. She is a victim, not a perpetrator, possibly accepting payment was her only way out of poverty. Lot of laws in third world countries in reality are never enforced.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 6:50:31 AM
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Nathan,

There appears that there is a lot about this case that is not only unsavoury, but illegal.

I am troubled by the kneejerk response to go to a full enquiry, and the demand to introduce new regulations, as creating new laws to stop people breaking existing laws seems somewhat oxymoronic.

What I would recommend is to take a chill pill and wait for things to play out before leaping into action.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 7:33:22 AM
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Paul,
No concern whatsoever, I'm pointing and laughing at White "progressives" as they try to reconcile yet another two conflicting ideas, opposition to slavery and trafficking of adults and their support for the trafficking of children from the third world to the west.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 7:44:19 AM
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Jay, I am a "Progressive", I must be out of step with all the other progressives. I am not in favor of human trafficking of children through surrogacy from the third world to the rich in the developed world. How do you know its the so called "White Progressives" who are driving this, can you name them? If you can not it could the work of some elitists conservatives. At one time in Australia it was considered fashionable to keep an aboriginal child in a white household, much in the way we keep dogs and cats as pets today. I do not thing such people were progressive, but they were white, so its half right.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 8:15:32 AM
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Paul,
Well the name of one of these progressives is Tony Abbott:
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-orders-new-national-boost-to-overseas-adoption-20140504-zr4ey.html
It's important to understand that the goal of "progress" in this context is the fulfillment of individual personal ambitions at any cost. When we talk about this culture of "narcissism" surely the most obvious symptom of the disease is White progressives asserting that they have a right to own children or to have children provided to them on demand to fulfill their ambitions.
Evidence gathered in the U.S indicates that interracial and international adoption is not good for adoptees, yet progressives like Mr Abbott and the numerous celebrity baby collectors such as Deborah Lee Furness insist that the practice should be more widespread:
http://qz.com/125451/the-real-reason-international-adoptions-are-failing/
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 9:16:24 AM
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Jay, you name a number of people through the SMH article, Abbott, Brandis, Andrews and Morrison, political retards that I would associate with conservatism before accusing them of being in any way "progressive". People with a very conservative outlook would as easily as anyone take advantage of surrogacy or international adoption for their own selfish satisfaction as much as these "progressives", you go on about. Are you concerned that international adoption from the third world could be "polluting" the gene pool of the white people?
What is your opinion of of "mixed" relationships? I may be biased as I am in a "mixed" relationship at the moment myself, and have been for many years now. We are financially well off even by Australian standards. We enjoy and get satisfaction from being involved in supporting people in Fiji, Samoa and Vanuatu along with family support in Aotearoa, a place my partner is a native of. She, "T", is very much the driving force behind our support, so I can not take the credit. At my partners insistence our support goes beyond the financial, which is easy, to include yearly trips to our other families both "back home" and in the islands for talks about what's needs to be done, along with lots of social gatherings.
As for Deborra-Lee Furness, I know she is an actor, but do not know much else about her, could be a female Tony Abbott for all we know.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 11:08:33 AM
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I don't know too much about surrogacy -
only that celebrities or people with money
seem to be able to afford it and they prefer
to have their own babies instead of adopting.
Which I suppose is a normal reaction.

However regarding "Gammy" - as Suse pointed
out earlier - we really don't know all the details
in what arrangement this couple had with the surrogate.
We don't know the full story. At first glance it does
appear to be incredibly cruel to take one twin and
leave another behind because of some handicap. But we're
really not in a position to be able to judge without
knowing all the facts.

Many couples seem to rely on IVF and rich ones on surrogacy -
and I guess this will continue to be the case. Perhaps what
we need is stronger international checks that would be
fairer to all concerned. Although implementing these
regulations in poorer countries will be extremely difficult.
Still worth a try.
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 11:24:17 AM
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Foxy, poor countries can make laws every bit as tough as we can, but often corruption, economic circumstance, resources etc allows for a blind eye approach when it comes to enforcement. As a rich country Australia can afford the luxury of social justice type laws. I question how much 'power' did the natural mother have in her decision making on this, was she desperate for the money, maybe seen as the only way out of poverty to some temporary degree. The rich are in a position to take advantage of desperate poor people, if they wish.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 11:38:18 AM
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Paul1405,

You go further than considering such issues in sentencing, to excuse the crime where the offender is one of your favoured groups.

But does that misled 'compassion' extend to you and yours though? Would you excuse the burglar who prowled your home while your loved ones were there?

To take another example,

<Qld A-G to appeal gang-rape sentences

December10,2007
Queensland's Attorney-General Kerry Shine says he will appeal sentences handed down against nine males who gang-raped a 10-year-old girl in 2005.
Cairns-based District Court judge Sarah Bradley did not record convictions against six teenage attackers and gave three others aged 17, 18 and 26 suspended sentences over the incident at the indigenous Aurukun community on Cape York.
The girl had "probably agreed" to have sex with the youths, Judge Bradley said during her sentencing remarks, The Australian newspaper reported.
Mr Shine met with Director of Public Prosecutions Leanne Clare for urgent advice on Monday, and determined the October sentences would be appealed, even though the deadline had passed.
"I am truly horrified by the circumstances of these offences," he told reporters in Brisbane.
"The law should be consistent in its application, whether it be in Aurukun or Clayfield."...
Opposition justice spokesman Mark McArdle said the penalties the prosecution sought should also be investigated.
"How did the DPP fail to put any evidence before the court, any submissions warranting a custodial sentence, and why didn't the DPP's office insist on a custodial sentence in these circumstances?" Mr McArdle told AAP.
He was also concerned that the victim was said to have agreed to sex, as children could never consent.>
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Qld-AG-may-seek-appeal-over-rape-call/2007/12/10/1197135325064.html

There are obvious problems in what you propose. It would excuse judicial mistakes like the one above and even legitimise them and ensure that the offences were not even investigated in the first place, once police found that the offender was a member of one of your protected 'victim' groups.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 12:41:35 PM
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Paul,
There's no such thing as a conservative in Australian politics, you're simply using the term as a pejorative to indicate your disapproval of one particular faction.
I'm on solid ground with my characterisation of Abbott as "progressive", if the Greens and Labor are progressive then so are the coalition because they all promote exactly the same world view, Liberal Internationalism and Zionism.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 12:51:07 PM
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Jay,

The left whingers calling themselves progressive is one of the greatest oxymorons of the present day, as they (especially the greens) are against any form of industry, nuclear energy, GM food, with the exception of wind and solar farms (as long as you don't put them anywhere). They are also for censorship of anything that they deem is not politically correct, etc, etc.

Technology has enabled people to create children where they would have previously remained childless through IVF, sperm and egg donations, and surrogacy either with entirely the parents DNA or the surrogates, or all three. While the deeply religious, or simply narrow minded, might choose to address the ethical issues by simply banning everything, and criminalising all that participate, there are alternatives that tick the ethical boxes and benefit all the participants.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 12:52:35 PM
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In response to Paul1405 - I have never said I consider the mother in Thailand to be a guilty at all in this situation - I question the couple involved from Australia. After all they went to Thailand - and started this whole process. A child of any type needs someone to look after them, and in this case it will be the parent in Thailand - who I have said previously I had given a donation to and their child.

I also went to the website to find out more about the charity in question. They are very committed to the people of Thailand and I have also called for a full investigation into this matter, so people can find out the facts on this matter. Also when I was on their donation page - I read so many passionate comments for the child and their mother - from various people (and saw their photographs - like family photographs), including some who said they couldn't afford a lot of money - but they were still willing to donate - I knew immediately - so many day to day people were supportive. This highlighted my main point here, that factions, extreme left and right wing groups, advocate groups and political parties can't win this case.

We have had investigations into other matters in Australia (via State Coroners) that relate to health for example. They don't keep avoiding important debate (and full details - finding out the truth) on this topic with silly jokes and terms like swallowing chill pills.

I totally agree with Foxy that we need stronger international checks and this can be part of any legislative reform in Australia.
Posted by NathanJ, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 1:05:12 PM
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Investigations are easy to suggest.

For a tabloid media that are forever going off half-cocked and encouraging their dumbed-down audiences to suspend their judgement and do the same, the call for investigations and more laws are part of keeping stories fresh (?!). That is much easier than ethical, principled, news reporting that could include investigative reporting.

It is a ridiculous, uninformed, naive view of the world that government (either side of politics) is unaware of and doing nothing about like surrogacy. A simple Google would prove otherwise.

What I wold very much like to see is an uprising of opinion against is the frivolous, sideshow reporting of the media including the similarly flawed 'current affairs' reporting of the taxpayer-funded ABC. 'Informing' the public with facts? Bollocks!

I have always been a supporter of compulsory voting but in recent years my belief in it has been shaken considerably.
Posted by onthebeach, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 1:50:56 PM
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Beach, your off with the Pixie's once more.

Jay, I wondered how long before you would make a disparaging mention of the "Jews". You do a very good job on the forum of disguising your rabid right wing agenda. You are intelligent I'll give you that, but now and then you can't help but let the "hate" slip out.

Nathan, good post I can only agree.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 7 August 2014 8:25:26 AM
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Paul,
Zionist non Jews probably outnumber Zionist Jews by a thousand to one, if not more, you forget that Christian and Jewish religious prophecy are entwined to the point of being inseparable in the West.
John Howard:
"The personal affection I have for the State of Israel, the personal regard I have for the Jewish people of the world, will never be diminished. It is something I hold dearly, something I value as part of my being and as part of what I have tried to do with my life."

Given that Abbott is Howard Mk 2 you may also remember John Howard's association with the Plymouth Brethren? What's the status of that cosy little arrangement in 2014?
You can do some reading up on the subject of Christian Zionism and get back to me OK?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 7 August 2014 7:38:20 PM
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Investigations are easy to suggest. Yes they are easy and they should happen. It is just as easy to blame the ABC. Nothing however comes from that. Don't forget other media have covered this topic. That is why an investigation can find out exactly what happened - and hopefully see our Federal Government move in terms of well developed legislation. People involved in this case have been put in very difficult situations here and action is required. Surrogacy can't just be left up to the states. It is now a national issue.
Posted by NathanJ, Thursday, 7 August 2014 11:24:46 PM
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NathanJ, "It is now a national issue"

You don't think it was before? What about citizenship and immigration policy as examples?

Through whipping up and managing the mob, the media are doing their best to sensationalise and spin this out as a never-ending story to wring the most out of it. Just in time because the Corby saga has been thoroughly played out.

The activists and media are like bulls in a china shop. It is a circus that fails to recognise any accomplishments and cooperation so far and causes disruption.

While the hacks of the trashy tabloid media (almost all of the media these days!) and the protesting mob are congratulating themselves for creating a right stir, it is always left to the original dedicated professionals including public servants who have to pick up the pieces. There is always a big set-back. Worse, some desperate, gutless politician has likely made some idiotic populist concession to the baying mob who are as usual, sadly clueless about the subject, other than the superficial headlines.

That is not democracy at work at all and it results in bad policy.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 8 August 2014 5:41:00 AM
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onthebeach,

Our Prime Minister has come on television morning programs in which he was interviewed and said this matter should be left to the states. It is very clever debating technique to avoid facing up to the issue. Some states have strong laws on this topic, others do not. At present states do need to address some of the issues at hand - in particular, Western Australia in relation to the Thailand case and the couple involved. However we do need national reforms and to simply say it wasn't an issue before - is correct - but why then didn't we see any legislation put forward by our federal government - and I am still waiting to hear any comments from other political parties on this topic - and what they will do to ensure quality legislation is put forward - a full investigation into this current matter, in which action is needed and will see better outcomes legislation wise. We can't change the past.
Posted by NathanJ, Friday, 8 August 2014 1:44:15 PM
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NathanJ,

Have you considered the possibility that the media and 'people power'(sic), might have inflicted more damage through their reporting and protesting?

The feckless, irresponsible media use people. I can see only victims.

There are times, in fact it is the usual case, where NO intervention and NO precipitative, populist decision is the best decision possible and the best outcome.

You want an investigation, but of what and for what outcomes?

From my point of view the media deserve a verbal spanking from their audience with a view to encouraging more principled, more ethical reporting. They have created a media circus as usual.

Australian authorities should gently enquire about the location, care and wellbeing of the child in Australia. Australia should not be attempting to horn in to interfere in another country or to give them advice.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 8 August 2014 8:09:35 PM
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Dear Nathan,

Damn straight I want an investigation into this
particular case. I watched the interview with
the Australian couple on "60 Minutes" last night.
And there were so many evasions that it changed
at least for me - the whole case. The biggest
question is how could a convicted Australian pedophile
with a preference for little girls, be allowed to
go into a surrogacy agreement in Thailand and be allowed
to bring home a baby girl? It appeared quite clear from
the TV interview that the little girl was this man's
primary concern - and not the twin baby boy who also
happened to have the handicap of "Downs Syndrome."
The entire obsession for this couple was coming back
to Australia as quickly as possible to prevent them losing
the little girl.

This matter is crying out for further investigation.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 11 August 2014 1:23:04 PM
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You imagine there haven't been investigations before? Here is an example,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-10/gorman-second-thoughts/4809582

What did you say then, if anything?

Thailand is taking action against commercial surrogacy, so the offences will take place elsewhere and are already.

It is complex. It is the $$ transaction, usually prohibited by law that is usually at root of the problems.

In Australia commercial surrogacy is prohibited. Some support it though as a way of overcoming problems in commercial surrogacy overseas.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/02/australia-commercial-surrogacy

It has been well studied and examined by governments. There are no easy fixes that can be imposed unilaterally by Australia. What about the risk of creating Stateless children(for example)?

What are your suggestions apart from, 'Ain't it awful' and 'The government should investigate'?
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 11 August 2014 2:02:56 PM
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Dear Nathan,

Child Protection agencies are looking into this
matter and have already contacted the couple in
WA. Also Minister Julie Bishop asked her Department
to work with the Attorney General's office and
Immigration Departments to come up with a
Federal Government response to the case of baby
Gammy.

Apparently the three Departments are considering what
response the Australian Government should provide to
this tragic situation. As Minister Bishop made quite
clear - "We're looking at it from every angle in terms
of Foreign Affairs, Immigration and the Attorney General's
office."

They are looking not only of course at baby Gammy but the
broader issues relating to International Commercial
Surrogacy. The Minister is being very thorough and probably
also sees that the problem is as Tania Plibersek stated -
"unscrupulous organisations overseas -
that go into the business of babies to make a profit."
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 11 August 2014 2:40:34 PM
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Foxy, ".. the problem is as Tania Plibersek stated.."

Would that be the same Tania Plibersek who was a senior minister and founding member of the Handbag Hit Squad under ex-PM Julia Whatshername? Y'know, the 'Real' Julia, the world's greatest PM and expert on sexism, misogyny and all things womyn? -Not to mention that Julia is your pin-up Grrrl as well.

So yeah, do tell us exactly what Tania, Julia and their Greens side-kicks did about overseas surrogacy, or even domestic surrogacy in the six years they were at the helm? Not rhetoric, list the practical achievements, since the said Julia was forever overseas and giving away taxpayers' money at the same time and was was concerned about women and not just the leftist educated middle class ones who get what they want anyway, including IVF.
Posted by onthebeach, Monday, 11 August 2014 5:16:05 PM
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otb,

I really can't help you Sir.

You need to seek professional help for
your medical condition. It's now appears
to be getting serious - as you tend to now view
everything from a jaundiced point of view.
Watever is eating you must be suffering terribly.
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 11 August 2014 6:47:18 PM
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Foxy,

You are a political partisan, a trenchant critic of the present federal government, having refused to accept the public's act of democracy in installing a new government in Canberra.

My concern as always is that the public, and we are all taxpayers in one way or another, get value for money from the $$ taken away from us in the plethora of taxes and charges of government.

You have a lot of gall to quote Tania Plibersek or any of the previous administration in this. You have been asked to list what practical measures the Ruud and Gillard/Greens government took on surrogacy. Your snipe at me is your usual defence.

OK, so please list those initiatives by Plibersek and PM Julia in their six years at the helm.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 12 August 2014 12:11:17 AM
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otb,

I repeat Sir, you have a serious medical
condition and need to get professional
help.

You have a problem.

You make accusations of
bias while yourself using terms such as -
"Handbag Hit Squad," "Julia Whatshername"
"Julia pin-up Grrrl," "Ruud" "Watermelon
Greens," and many other derogatory terms.

In this discussion the focus is what the
current government is doing about the issues
involved. And that question has been dealt
with by Minister Julie Bishop in a positive
light as I demonstrated in my previous post.
Your attacks on the previous government are
as always simply churlish and can't be taken
seriosuly.

You Sir, need help with the problem you're
obviously struggling to deal with.

Get help.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 12 August 2014 11:31:35 AM
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Foxy,

It is your dogmatism.

It is not funny that you apply such labels to anyone with the temerity to disagree with you, or even question your orthodoxy.

You brought Tania Plibersek into the discussion. It is perfectly reasonable to demand of you as a partisan supporter of the previous Gillard/Greens government to list what the previous Labor government achieved on surrogacy during its six years on the government benches.

Easy question, but you dodge and weave.

[Previously posted elsewhere by mistake]
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 12 August 2014 11:55:08 AM
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I am always amused by those who react to a media story demanding an investigation / inquiry etc.

The reality is that this essentially occurred in Thailand, and that all authorities in Aus can do is check the suitability of the couple in Aus to care for the child, and that the adoption papers are in order. (which are usually required to take the child out of Thailand and into Aus) Any real investigation can only occur in Thailand. Until then all that is available is the personal statements of the surrogate and adoptive parents all of whom have vested interests.

I am concerned that what we have here is one bad example and the vocal minority will call to ban all surrogacies as they have called to ban everything else.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 12 August 2014 12:45:29 PM
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otb,

If you keep doing what you've been doing to date,
you'll keep getting what you've got.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 12 August 2014 1:59:56 PM
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Shadow Minister,

Agreed and various lobby groups are already onto it - with the cynical cooperation of the bottom-feeding media with an interest in a long run of cheap manufactured 'news' and 'human interest' reports.

Speaking of which, Schapelle is still delivering columns.
Posted by onthebeach, Tuesday, 12 August 2014 2:18:22 PM
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