I just saw the TV ads for Anti racism. I found it racist in the extreme. it is produced by people dreaming their days away in high rise offices at taxpayers expense. this campaign is making a big gap even wider. It will achive exactly the opposite of what it claims to do.
I predict a huge negative outcome.

Individual,
They're stupid ads to be sure but they do make one important point, there are "issues" between Whites and Aboriginals but those issues are not connected to any other group, the history of indigenous-settler relations is unique.
I'm a White Nationalist and my experiences with Aboriginals have nearly all been negative including being bashed and robbed by them but I still wouldn't be as petty and stupid as those cartoon characters in the ad.
This ad portrays White people as ignorant and assumes that they are unable to read a person's body language, the way they sound and smell or tell anything about their intent just by looking at them.
We all have five senses but it appears that the White people in "Anti Racist Land" seem to be restricted to using only their eyesight.

This campaign highlights the damaging effects of
subtle racism and encourages all Australians to
check their behaviour.

"Why should anyone be made to feel like crap,
just for being who they are?"

Ads like these can help audiences to re-think their
place in the world. They also have the capacity to
expand our reality. There is simply a need for
the average person to experience how the "other
half" lives, and see things from
another's perspective - and have their stories
unfold on the screen.
Our consciousness is affected and relies
partly on filmed images.

This campaign does a very
good job!

What actually made me laugh was that they had to use a Niugini fellow on the bus to portray an Aborigine. Couldn't they find a dark enough indigenous in Melboure ?

Individual,

You have to allow them their little mythologies. In the anti-racism world it's everyone else against whitey --and remember only whities can be real racists

Dear Individual,

This particular actor is very good at acting various
character roles and he therefore was chosen by "Beyond Blue"
to get their important message across.

Actors play a variety of roles -
in Shakespeare's days men played the roles of women,
white actors have played black characters, and so on.

What is important is the message contained in this particular
ad - and that message - comes across very strongly strongly.

Besides it should also be added that this race has one of
the highest genetic diversities.
Not all Aborigines are the same.

Dear SPQR,

The point of the ads is not Aboriginal "mythology,"
but a more serious problem - that of depression,
and mental illness. And those are subjects that
"Beyond Blue" deals with on a daily basis, particularly
apparently amongst our Indigenous people. Hence the
reason for the ads.

I'm sure that you don't want to come across as a
non-compassionate, non-caring SOB - about such
an important topic that should concern us all in our
caring, compassionate non-racist ,egalitarian society.

Not all Aborigines are the same.
Foxy,
You're right on that, many are as white as I but it's the really dark ones who are the nice ones.

Dear Individual,

Gee, what do you know -
the same is true of white people!
What a co-incidence!

Ingraining the victimhood really serves only the academia and industries based around victimhood. I suspect far more people in rural areas have been called white trash and white __ for refusing to give $2 for grog than the boot being on the other foot. Racism stinks but by far the greatest recipents of it these days is the white male. Wasn't it not long back that the fairfax and Indian media was trying to make out how sexist Aussie men were. That of course until the truth comes out when India being one of the most racist/sexist countries on the planet.

Dear runner,

Have you actually seen the ads?

And do you know anything about "Beyond Blue?"

Then of course there's also the stats on
depression and mental illness regarding
our Indigenous people - and the causes.
All worth the research - before posting.
Especially from such a self-proclaimed
Christian such as yourself. Compassion
and understanding should be the norm for you.
Shouldn't it.

Foxy

Have you actually seen the ads? And do you know anything about "Beyond Blue?"

I did see one on the Drum the other night. Commonsense tells you the more you make a victim out of someone the more depressed they become. It really is not rocket science. Your old leftist dogma that only the left are compassionate and anyone who disagrees is a worn record with no substance. You should try expanding you thought process before being so judgemental.

Dear runner,

Before you lecture anyone on being judgemental
you should stop referring to their 'Leftist
dogma.' I haven't told you my political inclinations
whereas you proclaim your Christianity all over this
Forum - hence you can't expect people not to judge you
by your posts (as a supposed Christian).

Love, compassion, and all that. Right!
Try some of it. Practice - before preaching!

cont'd ...

As for the mental disorders of the Indigenous
People. Apparently "Beyond Blue," finds the
problem serious enough to run a campaign to
highlight the damaging effects of racism and
to encourage us all to check our behaviour.
The message is directed at us - to change our
attitudes.

'Love, compassion, and all that. Right!
Try some of it. Practice - before preaching! '

take a breath Foxy and apply it to yourself.

Dear runner,

But I always do!

I even forgive you. That's because the most radical
aspect of the teaching of Jesus goes beyond even
the commandment of love. It's His insistence on
forgiveness, even of enemies. In contrast to
Christianity, the other monotheistic religions, Judaism
and Islam, believe in "an eye for an eye, a tooth for
a tooth." There are of course many non-violent Jews
and Muslims who are committed to peace, but Jesus is
the first person in history to say that the vendetta and
the desire for revenge are totally inappropirate
responses for His followers.

However, Thank You for your concern about me.
Worry more about the example you're setting on this forum.
And try to change the unfavourable impression you're
making as a self-proclaimed Christian.

'Worry more about the example you're setting on this forum.
And try to change the unfavourable impression you're
making as a self-proclaimed Christian. '

No Foxy you have demonstrated for years that the only way to get a favourable impression from you is to agree with your ingrained predujices and dogmas (the very thing u accuse others of). You have no need to forgive me as I don't take offense from predictable responses.

Anyone knows that a major cause of depression is a dysfunctional childhood. The majority of Indigeneous people grow up with that and with a very high rate of sexual abuse. Multiple relationships from a very young age, fatherless upbringings and alcholol/drugs contribute far more than the small number of racist 'whites' in the community. The ads just contribute to not dealing with real issues and makes some feel that something good is being achieved. I suspect strongly it will have the opposite affect. I have seen this first hand for a long time.

Hi Foxy,

My reference to "mythologies" wasn't directed at Aborigines. But rather the white academics who are usually found at the core of such campaigns. In their nasty little minds practically all the woes in the world stem from whites, including racism.

Now for an outsider --someone who operates on the commonsense mode --this will sound farfetched (SPQR must be paranoid!). And I would have thought so too until I sat through a series of "Whiteness Studies" (and it goes by other names as well) at one of our major university's --and heard them spoon-feed it to impressionable undergrads.

Actually, you can get an inkling of some of their thinking if you read this recent OLO article http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=16525. They aren't about ending racism --that's the line they feed the gullible -- they are out to create more division and justify more social engineering.

These people are seriously SICK, in the conventional meaning of the word.

Have you actually seen the ads?

And do you know anything about "Beyond Blue?"
Foxy,
I find your ignorance extremely offensive. Offensive because people like you are making life for the likes of me harder with these idiotic schemes.
The only winners in this ad campaign are Jeff Kennett & the Ad Producers. The real losers are the innocent real Aborigines & the decent white tax payers are involuntarily funding these rorts.
So please stop offending me with trying to make people believe this campaign is based on integrity. It is based on useless academics rorting the Peter Principle.

You blokes should know that Foxy believes Aus is a racist country.

Remember, Foxy said, "People who are in denial about racism in this country are simply ignorant. Lets look at the facts - we imprison
brown asylum seekers, we once celebrated our national day
with a white racist riot. There were assaults on Indian
students, a little political organisation called
One Nation, and of course "the intervention" - the heraldic
beak on our long hawkish treatment of Indigenous Australians".
Foxy, OLO Friday 18-4-2014 12.18.35

The above is what she claimed to be 'facts' as evidence we are racist.
Against such 'facts' you blokes can't counter such logic.

Any advert or program that aims to show the public what is right or wrong in the name of race relations in our country is ok by me.

The only people who would have a problem with excellent ads, like this Beyond Blue advert, are those who have so little confidence in themselves that they feel the need to put others down to try and big-note themselves.

I feel sorry for these people at first, and then I feel angry....

Suseonline,
these are only excellent ads in the minds of the ignorant idealists. Those of us who know see it in the light of what the ads really achieve, a drastic widening of the gap we're working hard on trying to close. Idealism sounds noble but the stark reality shows us that the racist opportunists are getting big mileage out of this. You should really look at real racsim & what it really does & who the real racists are. You'll find the real racists aren't as pale as the ads are trying to make us believe.
Also don't forget that ads are really good money for the producers, of course at our expense not at the expense of the racists.

Suse,

There's no such thing as Racism in North Western European people, it doesn't exist because our societies are not based on ancestry or blood ties but on assimilation of outsiders,out marriage and concepts of honour, social standing and personal reputation.
Look to the Middle East or Africa or even the Aboriginals for your "Racism", blood ties and ancestry are the centre of their societies, you'll notice that reputation, social standing and the way the individual is seen by others are unimportant to those races.
A man can be a violent,drunken reprobate who leeches off the rest of his relations and still be a tribal elder.
Rightly or wrongly Aboriginals have a bad reputation among Whites, one contributing factor is the so called victimhood farming which goes on, maybe instead of producing these dark, de-saturated, defeatist ads the government could produce some positive pieces showing Aboriginals in their best light. White people are far more likely to say "Well good on them for making a go of it!" if they see something positive, accentuating the negative only annoys everyone and creates this false impression that the falsehood of "Us vs Them Racism" is a real factor in Aboriginal-White relations.

Jay of Melbourne said,
"There's no such thing as Racism in North Western European people, it doesn't exist because our societies are not based on ancestry or blood ties but on assimilation of outsiders,out marriage and concepts of honour, social standing and personal reputation"

HA! HA! HA! That's a good one Jay.

Is Mise,
Well the Beyond Blue ad campaign itself substantiates my theory and when the odd White person goes out of their way to be "Racist" the cry goes up "This person does not represent us!" and the public shaming of the offender begins.

Lol JoM, as an esteemed 'white' person, you must feel humble in your own presence?

Dear runner,

I will match my posting record with yours any day.
And if you would bother to re-read my record and
compare it with your own you just might discover
just which of us has the stronger "ingrained
prejudices and dogmas."

As far as the mental disorders of the Indigenous
people are concerned? "Beyond Blue" tells us
that there are a multitude of contributing factors
to depression. But untreated depression is a major
risk factor for suicide and suicide rates for
Aboriginal and Torres Straight Islander people are
approximately twice those of non-Indigenous Australians.
That's why "Beyond Blue" is working in partnership
to develop a range of research, information, education,
and support strategies with Aboriginal and Torres Strait
Islander communities and organisations.

Dear SPQR,

Thank You for explaining your earlier reference to
"mythologies," and for the article link you gave.
Interesting as it was I'm not sure iof the connection
that academics have with "Beyond Blue." I could tell
though that you feel very strongly about the article,
and that's understandable.

Dear Banjo,

Thank You for going to all the trouble of digging up
that old quote. Those were facts taken from
historical records that I got from Googling the issue
on the web. It's not something that I made up.
But then as we all know - you've never allowed facts
to get in the way of your rhetoric.

Dear Individual,

So you're easily put out and offended are you?

Well, then you must understand that perhaps
others may also be offended by your persistence
in calling them "ignorant" "useless," "rorters,"
and so on.

BTW - you should note that "Beyond Blue" is an
Australian, Independent, non-profit organisation
working to address issues with depression, anxiety
disorders and related mental disorders. It's aim
is to reduce associated stigman and to raise
awareness. It works in partnership with health
services and community organisations. The Chairman
of "Beyond Blue," is Jeff Kennett, former Premier
of Victoria.

Foxy

'I will match my posting record with yours any day. '

Stop fooling yourself that by having the time to post endless 'research sites 'usually of the leftist variety that your ingrain positions are not extremely predictable. It might of taken some a little time to see through you but I suggest to cut the bull.

Your whole paragraph in your last post address's nothing about the adds or their usefulness. Try looking at some real issues that lead to such high rates of depression among the Indigeneous and you might be taken seriously.

"ignorant" "useless," "rorters,"
Foxy,
So, what do You call such people then ?
Jeff Kennett was Premier of Victoria, so what. Malcolm Fraser was PM & look at him now ?
Being in high office is no guarantee that the incumbent retains his/her sense.
Do you really think such people join charities just to be charitable ? They do it to look charitable.

@runner, Saturday, 2 August 2014 12:21:22 PM

You make a very good point there about depression among some indigenous, which is no different from similar sufferers in the mainstream population, the root causes of much depression can be tracked back to self worth, which in turn can often be attributed to welfare dependency from poor education and lack of worthwhile work to do.

There are generations of unemployed, welfare dependent. Arguably the policies of Whitlam and others made it worse, legitimising sit-down money, government dependence and blaming others, and worse, hid abuse of women, youth and children behind the curtain of secrecy of 'self-managing' indigenous communities. We are seeing the unintended negative consequences of Leftist 'Progressive' policies.

I am sure that sadly all the advertisements will do will be to 'prove' to overseas onlookers that Australia is 'racist' and has done nothing for indigenous, whereas the reverse is true: the Australian population is very well disposed towards assisting indigenous and have generously provided millions of taxpayers' $$ annually, but the millions, now billions over the years has been purloined and wasted by the very professionals, elders and activists who claim they represent and help indigenous.

It isn't 'racism' that diverted, wasted and fraudulently dealt with those billions of taxpayers' dollars, ensuring regression rather than progress in indigenous lives.

There is a saying that the fish rots from the head. It is grossly unfair and wrong for the same elite who have milked the taxpayers are now blaming the Australian people for 'racism'.

Foxy.
No problem to find your ridiculous 'facts' as I have them on file.

Previously you were in denial that you made the comments it shows some progress that you now admit they are your comments.

Now you could explain how your 'facts' are racist. You made false interpretations deliberately to disparage Australia.

In fact the truth is that Australia is very accommodating to persons of all races.

A fair and honest person would withdraw the comments and apologise.

Jay,

"There's no such thing as Racism in North Western European people, it doesn't exist because our societies are not based on ancestry or blood ties but on assimilation of outsiders,out marriage and concepts of honour, social standing and personal reputation"

North Western European people were and are racist, as is just about everyone else on the planet.
Much of the strife between England and Ireland was blatantly racist, particularly on the English side.
Ancestry played/plays an enormous part in Western European society and marriages and other alliances were/are often based on ancestry.
Ancestry is so important that it is relatively easy to trace one's ancestry in Europe and not all those who can trace themselves a long way back subscribe to the Peanut Bush theory.

In recent years "out marriage" could get one or other of the parties killed or at the least ostracized in the British Occupied area of Ireland.

Dear runner,

If you were to actually read some other sources
you might lend your comments far more credibility and
they could possibly arm you with sufficient knowledge
to tackle the challenges put to your theories instead
of stooping to personal insults as you tend to do.
Reading a wider range of opinions just might provide
you with a better understanding of the real situation.

Here's a link that might help:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/29/racism-mental-health-indigenous-communities

Dear Banjo,

No - they are comments that as I stated earlier
were Googled from the Web.

However I am flattered that you think enough of them
to keep them on file.

As for my apologising for stating facts - that would
be silly. But you can - for calling them ridiculous.
Because, whether you like it or not that facts
remain - that we did have a "White Australia Policy,"
that we do imprison asylum seekers, that we did have
assaults on Indian students, that we did have a
political organisation called "One Nation," and the
list goes on.

Suse,
Ok then smartypants, what's the basis of Western societies if it's not race and it's not personal reputation and good standing in the community?
Can people like me inherit positions of power over other community members or can we go to the government and make demands based upon our ancestry? No, so the idea of "Racism" is debunked.
Either anti Racists represent "real" White people or they don't, there is no alternative position because there are no "Racist" groups, no "Racist" laws and no benefits for "Racism' anywhere in Australian society.
Name one "Racist" organisation anywhere in the West which has "Racism" as it's mission

Foxy, <People who are in denial about racism in this country are simply ignorant. Lets look at the facts - we imprison brown asylum seekers, we once celebrated our national day with a white racist riot. There were assaults on Indian students, a little political organisation called One Nation, and of course "the intervention" - the heraldic beak on our long hawkish treatment of Indigenous Australians.>
Foxy, OLO Friday 18-4-2014 12.18.35 (linked to by another poster)

Sam di Brito SMH, March 25, 2014, <It's easy to beat yourself up about Australia being a redneck country.

We do, after all, imprison brown asylum seekers and once celebrated our national day with a white racist riot. There were those assaults on Indian students, a little political organisation called One Nation and, of course, "the intervention"– the heraldic beak on our long, hawkish treatment of indigenous Australians.>

In the same di Brito article Foxy missed comments such as,

"These sorts of figures would suggest there is a lot to like about Australia, particularly if you come from countries where people routinely get killed for their skin colour, ethnic origin and religion or, imprisoned for saying something the government doesn't like."

and

"A 2013 paper by two Swedish economists, using data from the World Values Survey, found Australia to be amongst the world's most tolerant countries and India the very least."

What about Sam di Brito's concluding remarks?

Maybe I am old-fashioned, but I prefer the convention of showing quotes and the source so that readers can ascertain the original author's meaning, which in this case seems to be different from the spin another might put on the text, copied and pasted for their own use.

I see the usual suspects are indulging in their favorite sport of 'Foxy bashing'...

One doesn't have to look far for official websites (and this opinion forum!) proving that many Australians are racist.
So this sort of ad campaign often brings out the rats fighting.

"Challenging Racism: The Anti-racism Research Project" is one good example that shows data about racism in Australia, but I know many of the contributors to this thread would be just as suspicious of the academics who took this data, as they are about anyone different from their superior selves.

"The survey data indicate that a large majority of Australians are positive about living in a multicultural country.
Most Australians feel secure and comfortable with cultural difference.
The data also indicate that most Australians recognise that racism is a problem in society.
Too many Australians (41%) have a narrow view of who belongs in Australia."

http://www.uws.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/173635/NationalLevelFindingsV1.pdf

that we did have a "White Australia Policy,"
Foxy,
what is the policy in your neighborhood & in your home then ? Are you taking in indigenous or non-whites into your home & support them ? Please let us know how often you have such visitiors in your home & roughly how much you spend on them.
Thank you

Btw Foxy,
Australia was rather progressive under the White Australia policy. Do you think we're still so progressive since this policy was removed ? What of the funding that went to non-white , non-contributing immigratns from the revenue of the white Australia policy ? As you are our link expert could you please provide a link which provides figures of the revenue contribution by non-white immigrants since the bad, bad whites began using their resoucses to accommodate the majority of those non-contributing ?

The following links may put things into their
proper perspective:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6339&page=7

It shows quite clearly in what context the material was used.
If anyone has the time and the inclinations they can also
read many more of the sources used and to what end
on this subject. My intent in this discussion should be
clear to all. As reading the full content of posts and what
they were addressing will show.

Dear Suse,

There is so much material currently available -
for anyone who's really interested in the issues.
But of course one can't get through to
those with closed minds and set ideologies.
However, we must keep trying for the sake of our
children and grandchildren.

Thanks for your kind words.

Foxy, "It shows quite clearly in what context the material was used"

'Material'?!

The context was Sam de Brito's article wasn't it? See here,
onthebeach, Saturday, 2 August 2014 5:03:46 PM

You're welcome Foxy. : )

The truth hurts, and many on this thread can't handle the truth.

Australia is the wonderful country it is because it is successfully multicultural, and those wishing for a return of the racist White Australia Policy only shows that the dregs of that old-fashioned world still linger amongst us....

Bring on an even more confronting anti-racist campaign that will really get under the skin of the bigots out there, and finally they can 'come out' and show us all what they really are.

Suse,
The immigration restriction regime wasn't racially based, it was purely political, there's no such race as "British' or "Anglo Saxon", those are political social constructs.
Racism is debunked, it doesn't exist in the Western world and never has because if you draw a line across from the Pyrenees, to Belgrade then continue it up to Helsinki there's virtually no genetic difference between the numerous populations residing within, the minor differences are recent and localised.
Either race (as defined by Anti racists) is a social construct or it isn't.
Either Liberal Anti Racism is an accurate reflection of Western society or it isn't.
Either Europe is an assimilated, almost homogenous populace (mongrelised as Anti Racists would say) or it isn't.
You can't have it both ways because there are no races in Europe, all the differences are in what people think and believe, you and I are exactly the same except for some fairly esoteric differences in mindset and lived experience.
Do your views align with the majority viewpoint or do mine?
Have you had to take a step back and repudiate your heritage and upbringing in the way people like myself choose to do?
I'm willing to guess that you'll answer no to both questions.

JoM, the fact that you can rarely write a post on this site without mentioning 'whites' or 'Anglo' is all I need to know about where you stand on this subject.

I believe the majority of Australians are not racist, but I know many are racist, as the data I put up as a link in my previous post shows.

Suse,
You're dodging the question, are your views in alignment with the majority of people and indicative of the wider north western European mindset?
The way we White Nationalists see it we're a tiny, loose knit community of a few dozen people who have decided to break with tradition and repudiate the tolerant, easy going, assimilationist ways of our ancestors.
If we could find examples of your "racism" in practice don't you think I'd use them in every argument?
What you call "racism" seems to be what most of us would call simply bad manners or ill breeding if you will so it's no wonder that Anti Racists are seen as elitist busy bodies and wowsers.

get under the skin of the bigots out there,
Suseonline,
If you think people who are trying to protect this country are bigots then it really does come down to a contest between the bigots & the morons.
We can already see the damage done by you lot, so it'll be interesting to see what the bigots will do.

The following links may put things into their
proper perspective:
Foxy,
I'm afraid I can't see any figures in that link.

"White Nationalists"; A loose community of a few dozen people. Not big enough to be a political party. Not the National Socialists are you? Do you have a leader, wouldn't be Jim Saleam by any chance. would it?. Jay, you are obviously an operative of an extreme right wing party like Australia First. Why not just come out an admit it no, need to hide behind "the loose community" we're all friends here in this loose community.

community of a few dozen people.
Paul1405,
Well, quality is rare in comparison to quantity. White nationalist, first I heard of that. I'm a staunch conservative since Labor exposed itself to be nothing but an academic yuppy club with a disfiguring growth calling itself Greens.

Paul 1405,
You don't understand the political scene in Australia, there hasn't been an "Extreme Right" in operation since the end of conservative rule in 1972, the groups which existed then were wound up by their ASIO and Special Branch handlers under pressure from Labor. As a matter of survival the spooks and political cops had to ditch the Nazis and the other political clubs and street gangs because they had Lionel Murphy breathing down their necks.
Australia First is a Sydney outfit, I live in Melbourne so I've not had any contact with them and I couldn't care less what happens in Sydney anyway, it's as remote to me as Moscow or Beijing.
All right wing groups in the past were para-state formations tied to conservative politics, while Bjelke Petersen's agents were able to make good use of Neo Nazis they're of no use to Abbott because he's not a conservative, so no, there are no right wing groups of that nature on the scene.
What we do have are groups aligned with Abbott's Liberal Internationalism and Zionism such as The Australian Defence League, Australian Patriots Defence Movement, Q Society and Freedom Party, those are the para-state actors at present.
In case you're wondering, no I wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole.
I hope these words have set your mind at ease.

Foxy,
What is ridiculous about your 'racist facts' is your interpretation of the events.

None of the events you mentioned were of a racist nature. I am sure you are not that ignorant that you do not know that. Therefore the only conclusion left is that you did it simply to disparage Australia.
I just hope you do not have the hide to portray yourself as an Australian. With such actions you are not worthy of that tittle.

No Australian would deliberately lie and misinterpret events simply to rubbish Australia.

Thank you Jay, my mind is now at ease. Australia First Party HQ is just down the road from me in Tempe. Yes I recall the neo-fascist actively assisting Askin's Goon Squad, aka NSW Police Force, during the Vietnam War protests in the 70's, violently attacking peaceful protesters.
I think they were a loose community of like mindless friends as well.

"disfiguring growth calling itself Greens." Indi I'm still waiting for you to fill us in on the latest with those 'Rolf Harris' mates of yours up there in the Deep Deep North. As you said <<I (Indi) know ordinary blokes who are no different (to Rolf Harris the kiddy fiddler) but their behaviour is tolerated (by you I assume)>> That was a big ststement.

Banjo,
It's interesting to see immigrants bursting with pride in this country and turning out in droves to wave their little Australian flags on Australia day.
Surely there must be something to assimilate into and you'd have to assume that since nearly a quarter of people on this continent were born elsewhere that this is a tolerant society which has at it's basis assimilation of strangers rather than "Racism".
I put the question to the Anti Racists again, if the majority of Australians are "Racist" how is it possible that people like me fail in their attempts to capitalise on such sentiments?
If I went out onto Federation Square and started promoting "extreme right" ideas two scenarios would play out:
A:If the Police saw me first they'd eject me from the square, frisk me,take my details and probably issue me with a temporary ban on entering the CBD.
B: I'd be surrounded and screamed at by passers by and probably beaten up until Police intervened and enacted scenario A.

Dear Banjo,

I was born in this country and stating historical
and documented facts are simply that. If you look
upon those historical facts as "disparaging
Australia," when for example, up until the early
1970s, assimilation and the preservation of "White
Australia" continued as the Australian Government's
official policies. Migrants of every ethnic origin
were expected to assimilate promptly into a
monocultural mould of Australian identity, based on
the Anglo-Saxon and Celtic culture.
I'm simply stating things as they existed. The facts
are what they are. I did not make them up to "disparage"
anyone. And it is sheer nastiness on your part to suggest
to me that I am not Australain. I and my family have
paid their dues to this country in blood, sweat, and
tears.

Reading a wider range of opinions and doing a broader
range of research just might provide you with a better
understanding of the real situation and allow you to
tackle questions in a better and more reasoned manner,
alleviating the need to stoop to personal insults
when the discussion gets too difficult.

Paul,
Well if you're wondering what Saleam is up to maybe you should pop in to Ausfirst HQ for a cuppa and ask him yourself?
Maybe Ross May will be there and you can reminisce about old times?

JoM "You're dodging the question, are your views in alignment with the majority of people and indicative of the wider north western European mindset?"

I don't care what they think in Western Europe Jay.
I only care about what Australians think on this subject.

What do you think of the figures provided in the link I put up before?
Here it is again:

dohttp://www.uws.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/173635/NationalLevelFindingsV1.pdf

I only care about what Australians think on this subject.
Suseonline,
No you don't, you only care about what those who aren't Australian but call themselves Australian, think. Or perhaps you think running this country into the ground is what most Australians want. I have news for you, only moron lefties want that. You're in fact pandering to the real racists by letting them lead you around like puppy. You're falling into their trap.
Re-think the situation very carefully & with a really open mind & may, just may start to agree with those whom you presently disagree with.

Actally, I just remembered something that happened to me quite a few years ago. The white Labor voting bureaucrats in the Department I worked for & some of whom I used to spend my spare time with tried to shaft me big time. A so-called half-caste Aboriginal who was fairly high up in the Department but who made no secret of what he thought of non-indigenous then told these bureau rats to stop hassling me & this man who really had no interest in me other than seeing justice done helped me out big time.
Now what would you think in such a situation, a self-proclaimed disliker of whites helping a white purely out of a sense of decency. Therein lies the difference.

Suse,
Well it's an Anti Racism study so it's biased from the outset but here are a few questions:
What's the sample size of the study?
What was the ethnic makeup of the respondants and from where was the sample drawn?
Is this a sample taken from university students or the population at large?
What was the formula used to arrive at these percentages?

What you've provided looks dodgy and the list of researchers and corporate partners makes it look even dodgier since all concerned make their living from the narrative of "Racism" and discrimination.
If they don't find "Racism" they lose funding so the conclusions are bound to be weighted in favour of all concerned keeping their jobs.
As a businessman myself I use all sorts of strategies to make money, if I can find a way to convince people to employ me I'll use it, academics and bureaucrats have to eat too so stretching the truth or exaggerating the problems would be one of the tactics they'd use.
Academics have mortgages and families to support, they enjoy luxuries and have vices like the rest of us, I'd lie to keep my job or to get a better one, there's no reason to suspect that academics and bureaucrats are morally superior to anyone else.

Jay, Ross May..."The Skull"...well known St George football fan and Nazi (He spent plenty of time outside Kogarah Oval at Saints matches, he was always banned for the biff inside, could often be ejected 3 times in the one arvo) and well known basher of Asians! Those were the days, I spent many a Sunday arvo in the Domain heckling 'Webster'. Could always be relied upon to draw a crowd, a good few hundred at least, not a namby pamby few dozen of the loose community.
Jay have you shaved your head yet? It was all the fashion once upon a time with that loose community.

Paul,
I've been shaving my head for fifteen years, since my hair started receding, it's not an uncommon hairstyle down our way.
As I said, I've never been to Sydney so I'm not up with the fashions north of the border.

Foxy,
As I expected, you know you cannot substantiate your 'racist facts' so you now introduce another item, the white Australia policy. Yep that was a racist policy adopted Labor over 110 years ago and completely abandoned over 40 years ago. And you criticize me for raising your 3 month old comments.

Remember, you said, "People who are in denial about racism in this country are simply ignorant. Lets look at the facts - we imprison
brown asylum seekers, we once celebrated our national day
with a white racist riot. There were assaults on Indian
students, a little political organisation called
One Nation, and of course "the intervention" - the heraldic
beak on our long hawkish treatment of Indigenous Australians".
Foxy, OLO Friday 18-4-2014 12.18.35.

You cannot substantiate any of those 'facts' were or are racist. But I do not expect you to acknowledge that as you do not have the character. Shame you refer to yourself as Australian. I am satisfied to remind others of your wrong and disparaging comments.

I was once, about 50 years ago, subjected to a verbal racist attack on a Sydney suburban train, a mate and I (we both had black hair in those days) were quietly talking and a character a couple of seats away abused us and asked why we weren't speaking English and why we didn't go back to from where we had come.

Most of the seats were taken and just about everyone looked up; my mate (also 5th generation Australian) raised his voice and said
"Introibo ad altare Dei." I twigged and replied
"Ad Deum qui laetificate, juventutem meam".

We had both been Altar Boys and what my mate had launched into was the Latin of the then Mass.

More abuse and more Latin.

Around the carriage one could spot the Catholics/Latinists by the grins of mirth, those that didn't understand were soon told by their neighbours what the joke was and very soon laughter was general.

The abuser got off at the next station, or changed carriages, by now abusing everyone.

I can well imagine though the feelings of people singled out for racist abuse.

go back to from where we had come.
is Mise,
My english workmate & I were told that too when we told a union rep with the german name Ludwig that we couldn't afford to join the AWU that week.
He was an obese white & we were white (& still are)
Was he racist ?

My father spoke eight languages, yet I
can still remember him being told to
"Speak English," on a train whilst dad
was conversing quietly in another language
with an elderly friend. There are many other such
experiences that most immigrants could tell.
Most immigrants simply take these things in their stride.

Even today -if you happen to be in a public hospital with a
foreign surname - you automatically are asked
"Do you need an interpreter?"
To which one is sometimes
tempted to reply, " Why doesn't the doctor speak
English?"

But of course you are trained to be polite
and not rock the boat or stand out.

My own experience
at high school was not a pleasant one at times - even
though I was born in this country - my Maths teacher
took a great delight in calling me, not by my name,
but by " "Hey, unpronounceable, stand up!"
Ridiculing me in front of the entire class.
She convinced me that I was stupid, good for nothing,
and hopeless at Maths. I went on to University and
made a very successful career.

Here's a letter taken from The Age, 24.1.1967
written to the Editor:

"I for one feel no apology owing ...for...'racial
prejudice' against foreign immigration. It is
nothing to be ashamed of to prefer one's own kind
...I want to see Australia great, to be a
united and strong country - a British country with one
people...I make no apology for ... not wishing to see
a mongrel, motley Australia. I believe in a British
Australia."

There are many more such examples to be found in library
archives that make up our country's history - ranging from books,
newspapers, films, oral histories, and so on.

Today,
the Ocker Aussie, the exaggerated image of "Bazza (Barry)
Mackenzie," is an image which many
Australians would no longer be proud of. And it was a critical
self-consciousness that eventually forced both politicians and the
public to revise not only policies but also many of their
long-held and cherished notions about themselves and
the rest of the world.

"Hey, unpronounceable, stand up!"
Ridiculing me in front of the entire class.
Foxy,
Can you provide one of your links of a country where this kind of thing doesn't happen ?
I had that too & it made me think that where I came from immigrants were treated exactly the same. It's not racist, it's human nature, only the Anti racists make it racist.

Dear Individual,

We're discussing Australia - not what happens
elsewhere. And the following link may help
to clarify things for you:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/racism-on-the-rise-in-australia-migrants-report-cultural-shift-20140405-365a5.html

These are migrant experiences - and as such should not
be invalidated or brushed aside. You are in no position
to judge what a person is feeling. In my case - I was
the only one singled out for the treatment I recieved
from the Maths teacher. Nobody else in the class was.
But then I was also the only one in the class with a
"foreign surname." What I experienced over and over again
was more than just her "human nature."

Come on folks, lets not get too precious about racial abuse. In most instances it has nothing to do with racism.

I'm third generation, but my father was a trouble shooter for a company with a chain of stores throughout Oz. As he was shipped to sort out another store very often, I went to 16 schools. We built 3 houses, before dad refused to move again. I at least had my last 4 years at one school.

Being the new chum was treated exactly the same in my day, just after WW11, as the "new Australians" were treated when they arrived.

I was 9 when we moved from Townsville to Sydney. It was as if I was from another planet, not just another country. Thank god we didn't have state of origin back then, or I may not have survived.

My father taught me to fight, as I would have to run away, or fight the bully in the first couple of days. If you thumped the bully, but did not take over his roll, they never quite knew what to do with you. In some schools the teachers were not much better.

I became a pretty good footballer & batsman, by country school standard, as the easiest integration was through playing on the school teams. It is as well I did, I was also in the debating teams, & that was looked on by many boys, as much worse than being a foreigner.

We were getting quite a few Poms, & Italians while I was still at school, & none of the boys had it any harder than a kid from another town, or even a school across town. They all were picked on until a pecking order was established.

I thought the girls had it much easier, they did not have to go through a punch up, but may be I just did not see how the other girls treated them.

So how about a few less mountains out of mole hills. People need to look around to see that have no special claim to harsh treatment.

Oh come on Hasbeen, you can't be that naive.

I am sure every one of us has been bullied at one time or another in our lifetime, but unless we have any other skin colour than white here in Australia then we really have no real experience of what it is like to be a victim of racism in that way.

I have seen and heard multiple instances of absolute racist remarks and actions towards Aboriginal, Indian, Chinese, Italian and Vietnamese people where I live.
Of course I also witnessed the reverse happen to some white people, but in much less numbers.

I have been out working in the community in houses belonging to people of all cultures and ethnic backgrounds for many years, so I have been close to this under-current of racism all my working life. No one can tell me otherwise...

Suseonline, "I have been out working in the community in houses belonging to people of all cultures and ethnic backgrounds for many years, so I have been close to this under-current of racism all my working life.'

Sorry to hear that. Since you have been working in welfare do you consider there is any likelihood that, not to put too fine a point on it, you are often among Bogans, where ignorance is valued? Is there just a teensy little chance you judge all by the behaviour and problems (so often self made) of your welfare clientele?

Anyhow, is it always 'racism' with them or is it insensitivity, with lack of creativity? As well, is it shared about among the (ahem) whites and (multi-)cultures?

There are Bogans in all cultures and they don't even realise they are acting that way. They are not discriminating or being racist, they are just being Bogans. To some, 'Housos' is a reality TV show.

What chance those Beyond Blue anti-racism ads can change any of that? They have already proved they are uninterested in education and unaffected by it.

Maybe don't judge Australians by the few.

OTB, I am not in 'welfare' as you well know, and I go to all areas and all 'classes' of people.

Believe me, one does not have to be a 'bogun' to be racist, although I am sure you mainly have personal knowledge of the sort of people seen on the show 'Houso'....I have no doubt about that.

In any case, I think I have had enough of the usual arguments put up on this issue, so I will see you all on another thread later in the week.

Foxy,
As I said earlier it's the racists who make it racist ! Or the insipid for that matter.

I'm sure we can all recall raciest incidents. Recently I was at Woolworths, in a 12 items or less queue, There was an Indian woman about 50 and another about 30 both well dressed in traditional Indian clothing, I think they were mother and daughter. There were being served, unfortunately for them, they had more than the 12 items. This bloke next in line, who was "Australian" about 25, with a young boy about 7 or 8, most likely his son. This fella had something to say, the older woman apologized in very good English "Sorry we didn't see the sign, sorry." You would think that would be the end of the matter, but not for this bloke, he then launched into to torrid of racial abuse, the women were obviously embarrassed, and didn't know what to say. I got involved, telling this mug to cut it out, so he turned on me, I told him if he's not careful the police would be called with his racial vilification being illegal, and I meant it, the woman didn't want trouble. One of the ugliest aspects of this was it all took place in front of this blokes young son. I'm not saying he was typical but he certainly needed educating if nothing else, I pity his son to have an 'old man' like him. Probably told the kid what a hero he was!

Dear Individual,

It isn't only just the few who exhibit these kind
of attitudes. Look at your own posts and those of others
on this thread - who are totally trying to negate or
justify of excuse - what
others experience on a daily basis. That is predictable
and unfortunately very common. The only people who can
speak about racism in this country are those who experience
it and their experiences cannot and should not be brushed
aside or negated. It they are - then our society will be
the poorer for it.

"Beyond Blue," is simply trying to raise our awareness and the
awareness of the problems that do exist and they are
encouraging us to change our attitudes and how we can
better our society. I for one see nothing wrong with that.
But then I and my family have many experiences that
I could relate. And there were many. Many Australians,
back then, and now, were not delighted with the large numbers
of migrants competing with them for jobs and housing.
Many, then and now, objected to the migrants' languages,
manner of dress and many other characteristics.

Often, as we can see from this forum these "old" Australians
were, and are, often offended by any criticisms of Australia
made by migrants and were/are quick to label "new"
Australians "whingers" and worse - if they complained of the
hardships of re-settling in another country. Migrants were/are
"primitive" if they shared their income and expenses and
lived/live in big family groups and they were "taking over,"
if they were lucky enough to become prosperous.

And so it goes.

Dear Suse,

Thank You for your comments and I look forward to seeing
you on other threads.

Foxy,
I have experiences from when I was still in Europe when we had the eastern europeans come in & our welfare funds got depleted. I then migrated to Australia where I got work instantly because I wasn't fussy.
Then, I was again obliged to share my tax dollars with migrants who did not like most of us migrants look for work straight away but choose to lean on the welfare system instead. Now, this welfare system too is depleted just like the one in Europe.
Yes, you can always find an amiable example to support your argument but I'm looking at the broader side of it.
This depletion of resources originally provided by working people as a retirement fund for australian pensioners invariably causes resentment but not racism. The racism comes from those who resent the resentment.
Beyond Blue is asking Australian Pensioners to disregard the negatvie impacts on them.

Is Mise, what is the Peanut Bush theory?
I've never heard this term before.

Suseonline "Too many Australians (41%) have a narrow view of who belongs in Australia"

Too many Tibetans have a narrow view of who belongs in Tibet.
Too many Palestinians have a narrow view of who belongs in Palestine.
Too many Zulus have a narrow view of who can be Zulu (Blacks only!).

Without a "narrow view" of who belongs, NONE of the diverse ethnic groups you claim to love would exist.

For "Tibetans" to exist, there must be "non-Tibetans".
For "Zulus" to exist, there must be "non-Zulus".

And for "Australians" to exist, there must be "non-Australians".

"a large majority of Australians are positive about living in a multicultural country"

Depends how you define "multicultural".

When we had immigrants from Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England?

When that was expanded to other *related* Europeans (Italians, Greeks, Poles, etc)?

When that includes *every and any* of the 6000+ ethnic groups in the world, with assimilation discouraged?

These are not the same "question", are they?

"I don't care what they think in Western Europe"

We are part of a larger history/civilisation.
"Australia" wouldn't exist without that foundation.

There is no all-inclusive "world" civilisation.
People who talk of universal values are actually talking about Western ones.

well if the evolution myth is swallowed it makes sense that some races are more advanced and superior to others. If we were made in God's image then there is no place for racism. Somehow people want to push the line that we are all equal (which I totally agree with) but then insist that some are less developed. Just another inconvenient truth for god deniers.

Dear Individual,

Unlike the "guest workers" in Europe, the migrants
arriving in Australia after the Second World War
(my parents) were expected by the Australian Government
to settle permanently and to assimilate. This explicit
policy was highlighted by the creation in 1947 of the
Assimilation Branch of the Australian Department of
Immigration. Assimilation meant blending into the
Australian monoculture, "with everyone living in the
same way...and sharing the same aspirations."

Most post-war immigrants came to Australia as
indentured labour, that is, every migrants over the
age of 18 had to enter into a two year contract with the
Australian government which obliged the migrant to work
wherever directed. And the contracts were strictly
enforced. These two year work contracts were the migrants'
first major contribution to Australia. They helped to solve
an acute labour shortage in the country, especially in
outlying areas. History acknowledges that the migrants
contributed tgreatly to the rebuilding of Australia's
major structures (Snowy Mountains Scheme, etc) that wee to
serve the nation for many decades to come.

Later on - my parents worked at whatever jobs they could get.
They never went on "welfare" and most migrants of those times
were a self-sufficient group. Long before the principle of
"User must pay" became fasionable in Australia, these
people financed al their own ethnic interests out of their
own pockets. They acquired houses, halls, and museums.
And they are still footing the costs of publishing their own
newspapers in Australia without any state of philanthropic
subsidies.

In any case. I'm done here.

You can believe whatever you want.

You can believe whatever you want.
Foxy,
Yes, I believe you're doing your usual running away when it gets too inconveniently truthful for you. I noticed how you conveniently failed to remark on those migrants we're actually discussing here & the source of real racism. You need to learn to distinguish between racism & simple dislike come personality clashes..

For Suseonline's benefit, who apparently lives and works among them and judges the whole of Australia by her experience, but is in denial of that fact,

"bogan

A fascinating beast. The majority of the species are hideously repugnant and unintelligent, and yet they manage to breed in ever-increasing numbers and populate an area known as the outer west. It is quite common to find five or six offspring in each family group, often with a different father for each new baby.
Their habitat consists of a weatherboard or brick-veneer dwelling and is characterised by an early-model Holden or Ford in the driveway surrounded by a group of males discussing why the carby is stuffed and the results of last night's footy (a primitive gladiator-like spectator sport enjoyed by most bogans).
The female of the species, while smaller in stature, is far more loud and aggressive than the male. While the males tend to be very friendly and congregate with other males, the females spend most of their time in supermarkets and shopping malls, using a shrill high-pitched call to discipline their children and contact other females.
Males and females rarely interact socially except during breeding season, which is otherwise known as Friday night. During this time, females are allowed to enter the male-dominated area known as "the pub" and display their impressive coloured plumage to a prospective mate.
Herein lies an interesting phenomenon. Males will often fight over a particularly attractive female and she will mate with only one male, while some less attractive females have been known to have several partners simultaneously."

and,

"Houso
houso
A person who lives in housing commission/ Government assigned low budget housing."

Courtesy of the Urban Dictionary, http://www.urbandictionary.com/

Although I believe that Suseonline is protesting too much. LOL

Dear Individual,

I am not running away - but I care
about facts. I deal with them on a daily basis.
However when I see posts
such as yours so completely devoid of logic and
factual material -
I usually choose not to engage in addressing them because
by their very nature they condemn themselves
completely. I have addressed the Beyond Blue
issues here. I have given a link regarding
migrant experiences in this country.
Your lack of comprehension skills is beyond my
control. But I'm sure you'll find many kindred spirits
more than willing to share your views on this thread
of yours.

I've got better things to do with my time.

Cheers.

Paul Fenech, also for Suseonline,

http://mumbrella.com.au/housos-paul-fenech-australia-suffers-from-nazi-political-correctness-72248

Shockadelic,

The Peanut Bush Theory as applied to the study of Genealogy/Ancestry is that the best parts are under the ground.

Foxy ""with everyone living in the same way...and sharing the same aspirations."

Who are you quoting?

"indentured labour, two year contract"

Not quite slaves-for-life, eh?

Why not? This enabled *immediate" involvement in the local community/economy.

Those two years of guaranteed work probably *helped* the adjustment/establishment of many people's new lives.

Had they been left to their own devices, they'd have probably ended up homeless beggars (no Centrelink back then).

"They helped to solve an acute labour shortage in the country"

50,00 Australians were killed or wounded in World War II.
We needed some extra hands.

The same proportionate loss today would be 160,000.

We already have 700,000 unemployed.
No more "workers" required, thanks.

Dear Shocker,

You ask who am I quoting?

The quote I gave was taken from the book -
"The Changing Australians: A Social History."
It was a required text for year twelve high school
students. My son lent it to me.

As for Indentured labour - which you claim was not
"slave labour." Well, almost - the early conditions for migrant
settlement were inadequate. There was no family accomodation
in many places to which contract workers were sent.
Men had to live in tents or tin huts,
in the most primitive conditions.
Their wives and children remained in holding camps for
long periods and often a long distance away from their
husbands' and fathers' work places. Marriages suffered, and the
psychological scars of forced separations have remained for
life.

However, there's no question about the immigrants economic
impact. These same migrants could have accomplished a great
deal more if the Australian authorities had made full use of
their skills and knowledge instead of treating them all as
unskilled labour. Nevertheless, their economic contribution
was significant at a time when Australia needed it most.

As for your suggestion of their becoming "homeless beggars"
if left to their own devices? Well, there again - as history
has shown - that after completion of their two-year contracts,
many newcomers established building companies, new factories,
retail shops, service and repair centres, skating rinks,
tailor shops and even a complete town (Eucla). Many others
became self-employed in small business and in all kinds
of trades.

Australia was not the only country to suffer loss of lives
during World War II. The country of my parents - Lithuania,
lost its sovereignty when Russia occupied the country on
15 June 1940. Another foreign takeover, namely the
German occupation, followed from mid-1941 to 1944. Then,
Russia came back to rule again for another 46 years.
Lithuanian's independence was finally restored on 11th March
1990. Demographic evidence has estimated that, between 1940
and 1959, ruthless German and Russian rulers were
responsible for the deaths of 683,185
citizens of Lithuania or 22.17 per cent
of Lithuania's pre-war population

Changing Australians, eh?

That title kinda gives away the agenda of the author.

"Australians" didn't change much at all for nearly 2 centuries.
And never asked to change.

"Their wives and children remained in holding camps"

With food, clothing and shelter provided.
Hell on Earth!

"as history has shown - that after completion of their two-year contracts, many newcomers established building companies, etc"

Yes, *after*.

Fresh off the boat/plane with *no* English skills and no helping hand in any way from the government, would they have achieved the same results?

"independence was finally restored on 11th March 1990"

Hooray!
Now you can go back.

And why did the Soviet Union collapse?
It wasn't just politics was it?
It was ethnicity.

Lithuania = Lithuanians
Ukraine = Ukranians
Uzbekistan = Uzbeks
Kazakhstan = Kazakhs
Belarus = Belarusians
Azerbaijan = Azerbaijanis
Georgia = Georgians
Tajikistan = Tajiks
Moldova = Moldovans
Kyrgyzstan = Kyrgyz
Turkmenistan = Turkmens
Armenia = Armenians
Latvia = Latvians
Estonia = Estonians

Australia = every and any ethnicity on Earth?

Those are not just political nationalities, they are ETHNIC groups and those are their historical homelands.

"Australians" are an ethnic group too and this (not England) is our homeland.
But we must share it with *all* other ethnic groups?

Why is the "independence" of these ethnic groups something to celebrate, but any hint of a similar self-interested autonomy by Australians is condemned and forbidden as "racist" and "evil"?

The Soviet Union, like Yugoslavia, was a "multicultural" experiment that could never work, like all such experiments.

Our experiment will fail too.
It just a matter of when and how catastrophic.

Shockadelic,
We're trying to get morons to understand, just keep in mind we're in for a hard slog.
We do have one distinct Australian ethnic group evolved now, the left-winged Insipians.

I can see that I have made a huge
mistake in trying to inter-act with you
gentlemen (for want of a better word).

My comments have drawn such venom and
ignorance from you. You both need history
lessons - but I've not the inclination to
give them to you or to continue any
further discussions.. Suffice to say - that
you gentlemen belong in a museum -
(certainly not in politie or civilised
society or on any discussion forum).

You both need history
lessons
Foxy,
No, you need foresight lessons !

@Foxy, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 12:57:05 AM

Violin accompaniment for Foxy please.

Honestly, you are forever claiming the victim status that Lithuanian Australians have never claimed themselves.

Nor do Australian Lithuanians trash their fellow Australians as you do.

It is exasperating where you continue to recycle the same old jaundiced view of Australia despite many patient posters having gone to considerable pains to correct your wrong claims and to try to get you to be a little balanced.

You continually harp on alleged 'discrimination' affecting immediate post-WW2 migration (the Lituanians were among the first to be given sanctuary from their horrid camps in Europe). It is been explained to you many times before that during WW2 Australia was converted into a war economy, a production machine to feed and rescue Europe. The recovery post-WW2 was traumatic for locals, returning Diggers and for migrants. However that and more has been explained so many times previously.

You say you are a graduate librarian who probably has worked as a public bureaucrat for decades. Librarians are very well paid and work in airconditioned offices. Much better pay and conditions, totally safe, than the (male) construction subbies who I engage. Hugely better than farm workers who raise families.

You have travelled widely, are married to an architect and from what you have said previously, life's luxuries are not beyond you, and you lead a comfortable life. You personally drive a GMH limo that is the length of a cricket pitch and doubtless as a bureaucrat on a jolly goo screw with beaut super you would also have had a guvvy car to ride.

Again, those happy Lithuanians who came to Australia are not whinging and they probably don't even put their birthplace first when describing themselves.

You probably have already been receiving the benefits of affirmative action in employment because you are a woman and you grew up in a migrant household.

So, could there be an end to your stirring and assumed victimhood as a girl child of migrants?

otb,

Again, with the accusations of "victim status,"
and "sledging" Australians.

What I am simply stating are the facts-
that is, - the conditions that
existed at the time.

The fair-skinned Lithuanians and other European arrivals
were seen at the time as a tangible response to the
popular call of the day, to "populate or perish."
Their presence helped to allay the Australian population's
fears of "the yellow hordes in the north."

Generally speaking Lithuanians are well integrated into
the Australian society. They have achieved a high proficiency
in English and are participating in Australian cultural
activities. Also a considerable proportion of Lithuanian
immigrants also maintain, to varying degrees, their
national heritage and their membership of Lithuanian
associations. However as I stated earlier rapid assimilation
was strongly promoted by the Australian authorities.

Walter Jona, the then Victorian State Minister of Immigration
and Ethnic Affairs, was quoted as having said to a
large gathering of Lithuanians in Dallas Brooks Hall,
Melbourne on 26 December 1976:

"...But the best thing about you Lithuanians is that
on the street you are indistinguishable from ordinary
Australians...and the worst... is that there are not
enough of you."

As for receiving government support?

The facts remain that Lithuanians always were a
self-sufficient migrant group. They
chose to finance all their ethnic interests
out of their own pockets. They acquired impressive Lithuanian
houses, halls and museums in Melbourne, Geelong, Sydney,
Brisbane and Perth; they built two Lithuanian houses and a
church in Adelaide. Each larger Lithuanian community in
Australia has its own library, with the books paid for by
the community members. Lithuanians are still footing the
costs of publishing two weekly newspapers in Australia,
without any State or philanthropic subsidies.

Lithuanians have recorded low unemployment rates, even lower
than English-speaking monolinguals.

I was brought up to work hard, and achieve everything on
my own sweat, hard work, through studying, and whatever God
given talent I had.

My parents worked several shifts
in factories - to give
me and my brothers an education.
What we have we earned.

cont'd ...

otb,

It should also be noted that the early months
after arrival in a new country call for the greatest
adjustment, not only for the migrant, but also for
the local people who interact with the migrant.

Since Nino Culotta's humourous exposure of the problem
(1957), the literature on this topic has been growing
rapidly. I have provided you with a Bibliographic list
in the past on this subject.

'My parents worked several shifts
in factories - to give
me and my brothers an education.
What we have we earned.

You must have had wonderful parents Foxy. Its a pity that all Australians (including recent immigrants) do not have the same attitude as your parents. They obviously did not I have the 'government owes me' attitude so prevelant among unionist, government workers, academics and many welfare recipients today.

Dear runner,

Thank You for your kind words about my parents.
I think probably most children think their
parents are special people. It's also difficult
when discussing migrants, especially non-British
migrants, people are sometimes tempted to lump
all newcomers together and treat them as one
homogenous species. Nothing is further from the
truth. Australian immigrants vary a great deal
in their ethnic backgrounds, religions, and
educational levels. Their current social and
educational needs are not homogenous, either.

People have settled in Australia for various reasons.
My parents were refugees (Displaced persons). Others
have settled for economic reasons, change of lifestyle,
adventure, family reunions and so on.

I feel privileged (as I've stated many times in the past
on this forum) not only to have been able to make
a home here but also to have found my own sense of
belonging.

individual, "the left-winged Insipians"

I wouldn't call them an ethnic group, as they are devoid of and could never produce a culture.

They're more like a cult.

Associating only with cult members, speaking in codewords, voicing only permissible "truth", condemning non-believers as demonic and feeling very self-satisfied about it all.

Foxy, you belong in a museum.

Look at the portraits, the statues, the photographs of *who* built this nation.
White, White and more White.
You may need a Bex and a good lie down afterward.

"The fair-skinned Lithuanians"
"you are indistinguishable from ordinary Australians"

Precisely.

After just one generation nobody would even guess their ancestry is Lithuanian.
And these descendents would probably only identify as "Australians".

This *cannot* ever be the case with Mongoloid, Negroid, Dravidian or Austronesian/Malayo-Polynesian peoples, and is unlikely (depending on marriage selection) with Middle Eastern or Indo-Iranian people.

In 10 generations, they will still look in the mirror and see a square peg in a round hole.
And so will everyone else.

Their perpetual inner discomfort probably being projected on to and blamed on others, creating permanent alienation.

Happy times ahead!

However the subject Lituanians are not complaining. They thanked the soft-hearted Immigration Minister who had convinced his Labor colleagues to do something urgent to he done about the Lituanians he came across in a camp in war-devastated Europe to offer them sanctuary with no strings: without any background checks, no character test, no citizenship test or any other check (eg were they all on the side of the angels during WW2?). They had an open offer where they could have automatic citizenship any time they chose and could leave and return if they liked.

Here are the grateful Lithuanians presenting Caldwell with a gift of deep, heartfelt thanks, smiles everywhere,
https://www.flickr.com/photos/anmm_thecommons/8400302435/

Everyone was in the same situation at the time and like all around them the Lituanians pitched in and did well. Good for them.

Here is another happy story,
http://www.slic.org.au/Community/People/Vic.htm

It is not the subject Lithuanians who have ever claimed any discrimination or ill-treatment at all. It is Foxy who is complaining and seeking victim status on their behalf while sinking her boots into Australia and Australians (well, perhaps exclusively booting those despised 'whites' [sic] from the UK it seems). Foxy's obsession :(

otb,

It wasn't until the late 1940s and early 1950s that
10,000 Lithuanian migrants came to Australia. Most
of them were refugees, who had fled from Lithuania in
or around 1944, to escape the second Soviet occupation
of their country (1944-1990).

These immigrants initially saw Australia as a temporary
stopover, because they were hoping to return home soon.
They were convinced that the Americans would come to
Lithuania's aid. However, as we all know, a shroud of
silence was thrown by the West over the Soviet occupation
of the Baltic States. Their hopes were not fulfilled.

Lithuanians were not brought to Australia with "no
strings attached." They came as indentured labour
and had to sign two year contracts (strictly enforced)
to work where directed - even if it meant that families
were split up.

On arrival in Australia, all Lithuanian
migrants were classified in only two occupations:
"labourers" which denoted all males, and "domestics,"
which meant all females. Although the Australian
employment officials had full details of each immigrant's
skills and qualifications, no effort was made to match
these with the jobs offering. The Australian authorities
enforced labour contracts strictly.

Some unable to work in their professions or having found
the climate too trying, went overseas. According to some
sources, up to 2,000 re-settled in the USA. Similar
numbers went back to Germany, and several other countries
to live permanently.

By 1996, the number of Lithuanians in Australia had
dwindled down from 10,000 to 4,222, that is, 0.00024 per cent
of the total Australian population of 17,752.882.

One could also try and argue that the indentured contract
scheme was equally beneficial to Australia and to Lithuanian
migrants. One could say, for example, that Australia benefited
becaue the migrants solved its acute labour shortage in
key areas, while the migrants benefited, too by being
assured of jobs and having an opportunity to settle in a new
country.

This argument is difficult to sustain.

Australia was the last country to enter the International
Refugee Organisation's re-settlement scheme and political
rhetoric aside,

"Economic expedience was by far the stronger motivation."

cont'd ...

otb,

You accuse me of "sledging" Australia and
Australians. That is utter nonsense and you
know it. And it's actually absurd coming
from someone such as yourself who does more
"sledging" than anyone else on this forum.

You don't believe in this country's Black-armband
history of our Indigenous People, you consistently
label people whose views you don't like.
You think "It's All right to be a bigot,"
and fight for "free speech" (providing the speech
are views you agree with).

We get it!

cont'd ...

BTW:

The following book provides facts that
you can check for yourself:

Panich, C. (1988)
"Sanctuary? Remembering Post-War Immigration."
North Sydney: George Allen & Unwin Australia.

As for Lithuanians giving the gift to then Minister
Arthur Caldwell?
Lithuanians are a generous and polite people.
They have given many gifts over the decades to
Australian politicians on all sides of politics.
That's what Europeans do!
They would never show what they really think in
public. That's not the way they've been raised,
culturally this may be difficult for someone such as
yourself to understand!

cont'd ...
And that's not "sledging" Australians.
Only you - who I find to be the worst
element of this country - the bottom
of the barrel, so to speak and thankfully
a minority!

The Aussies I know and love have nothing
in common with you. Thankfully!

In all of the years you have been pursuing victimhood on behalf of migrants who never sought it themselves you have yet to examine the status of industry, living conditions and the economy, at the conclusion of WW2.

An obligation to work for a couple of years and where work was available was not so bad where returned Diggers couldn't find work or housing.

Open the other eye, or in your case both. Your baggage and your sense of entitlement as a girl child of a migrant couple who took up the very generous offer of sanctuary and citizenship if they chose, NO strings and precedence above those teeming thousands who also wanted to get out of the hell hole that was Europe after WW2.

Who in hindsight couldn't claim disadvantage in the social and economic conditions after WW2? Your parents and you were very lucky indeed that so many and from countries as remote and uninvolved as Australia sent their best to fight tyranny. No-one is asking for your thanks, but simply to observe that the very people you are claiming victim status on behalf of and who are now probably in their nineties have never claimed unfair treatment themselves from Australia.

There are 2 sides to everything Foxy, & there is another side to your hardly done by migrants.

Many of them worked on the snowy scheme. Yes it was hard work, in sometimes harsh conditions, but it was also very well paid.

When locals in southern NSW started to find out how much the "reffos" were being paid on the snowy, there was considerable trouble. You see this highly paid work was not offered to the locals, or through out the country.

There was considerable hiring of noisy locals, to keep a lid on the trouble, before it ripped the whole thing apart.

Foxy is seriously upset because a hospital asked if a translator service was available. It is evidence of 'racism' apparently.

For goodness sakes, that is a standard question put to everyone. Check the admission documentation. Duty of care. Also an initiative of the multicultural policy that Foxy supports.

The serially upset educated middle class with an overdeveloped sense of their own entitlement.

Contrast that with the small crew of men (Islanders who came via NZ maybe) cheerily demolishing a couple of old houses nearby. Dangerous and dirty work, however all are telling jokes. There is the promise of a barbie and a few drinks to go with a bit of a bonus if they get it done on time, which they will. They have already said they would do the work for the barbie too and they sorted some dry timber from a dead gum they felled. How different and refreshing it is after the whining on OLO and in the media.

No. Foxy is not seriously upset because someone with
a foreign name - was asked
if an interpreter was required. And Foxy is fully
aware of how hospitals work. However, not all hospitals ask people
with "foreign names" if they need interpreters nowadays.
They've learned not to make these sort of assumptions any more.

The same as most people no longer make sweeping statements
or generalisations
about migrants, feminists, young people,
the middle-class, or who's on the "gravy train,'
or - anyone else. Because thinking people do not
support illogical or abusive debaters and those outmoded
tactics are no longer acceptable.

With that thought in mind. The following link sums things
up rather nicely:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/racism-on-the-rise-in-australia-migrants-report-cultural-shift-20140405-365a5.html

Foxy,

You wear your belt very high indeed.

It is over sixty-five years since that photo I supplied was taken, with the Lithuanian migrants bestowing a gift and their heartfelt thanks on Arthur Caldwell for Australia's generosity in offering them sanctuary.

In all of the years you have been pursuing victimhood on behalf of migrants who never sought it themselves you have yet to examine the status of industry, living conditions and the economy, at the conclusion of WW2.

How old are you now? You must be well advanced in years if as you imply you accompanied your parents to Australia. But if you are a Boomer you are nearly seventy from what you say.

You say you have travelled extensively and have had a very broad range of experiences of the world. Did you carry this monkey all of the way and for what reason? Because an impolite woman teacher ruffled your feathers in school?

Many of the male members of my extended family died or were seriously injured in WW2. The repercussions of the war and its aftermath as the economy lurched with shaky recovery from the war footing affected my family's lives, careers, futures, destroyed assets and all manner of terrible things. Like many other farmers we also lost quite a number later in farm machinery (usually tractor, milling and saws) mishaps and rail crossing accidents. However like those Lithuanian migrants all did the best they could with what was available and we and they (the Lithuanian migrants) coped, lost a few, succeeded and were happy.

Maybe you should get on with your life. None of those now very elderly or deceased Lithuanians claimed ill-treatment and discrimination as you are wanting to claim.

otb,

Again with unsubstantiated accusations
and wrong assumptions.
I was born in this country. I did not accompany my
parents here.

You cannot speak on behalf of
Lithuanians or any one else, except yourself.
And conjecture does not count in reasoned discussions.

Now to get back to the topic.

Here is a link that may be of interest to others:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/role-model-adam-goodes-wins-australian-of-the-year/story-fni0fiyv-1226810442669

I get the distinct impression that if racism were to suddenly end Foxy would need counselling. It's almost as if racism was her elixir of life. It sure is a strange one to have such a strong need to keep stirring with such vigour in order to cause discontent with something nothing can be done about. Very strange indeed. All I can add here is that if the Anti racists want things to get better they need to stop being racist.

Dear Individual,

You were the one who started this thread on racism.
Not me.
I'm merely providing documented information taken from
Australian archival records, books, Immigration Museums, National
and State Libraries, telling us what the conditions were
like at that time, and what immigrants thought, and experienced,
how they were treated, and why, and I've also made the mistake
of sharing the personal experiences of
my parents, and their friends, including my mother - who's still alive.

If you doubt any of this information - you can begin by getting
hold of the following two books :

1) Jupp, J. (2002) "From White Australia to Woomera: The
Story of Australian Immigration."
Port Melbourne: Cambridge University Press.

2) Panich, C. (1988) "Sanctuary? Remembering Post-War
Immigration." North Sydney: George Allen & Unwin Australia.

This would be a good start on this subject and the question of
racism in this country which you introduced as a topic
for discussion.

Making personal assumptions about myself - is no way
to argue in a reasoned, intelligent discussion - and
merely indicates you have nothing of any substance to say.

BTW: The following link below - explains the "Beyond Blue"
add campaign that you're so against
(gee, what a surprise reaction
for someone trying to negate racism in Australia).

What you don't realise is that this add campaign is
targeted at people like you yet you don't even realise it.
Ignorant people trying to sound smart in front of a
keyboard. Hang your head - you are part of the problem!

http://www.beyondblue.org.au/about-us/news/news/2014/07/29/campaign-to-address-strong-link-between-racism-and-depression-and-anxiety-in-indigenous-australians

Foxy,
I live that racism around me daily, I don't get from some sanitised version in a library. If you think Anglo saxons are racist than you'd better think again.
I see how opportunistic non-anglo saxons play the game & sucking many do-gooders into their disgusting game. Did you realise that many anglo saxons can't write down their experiences because they'd be persecuted by their own race albeit only the ignorant ones.
I have witnessed racism from anglo saxons & non-anglo saxons & I'm not exagerating when I say that I found the anglo saxons to be the lesser racist. There are way too many morons amongst us but they're not as vindictive & deceitful as the non-anglo saxons. The anglo saxons also are the largest providers of aid to those who despise them.

Foxy "you belong in a museum"

So does Utopian Social Engineering.

What turned Europe to rubble, what your family fled from.

I wonder how many will flee this country when your impossible, absurd mix-6000-cultures-together-and-cross-your-fingers experiment blows up in our face.

Dear Individual,

The information that I've provided came from a
variety of sources, including government
documented records of that time, and not only
as you infer "sanitised versions in the library."
They also came from people who lived and experienced
those times.

The following link provides some thoughts for you
on multiculturalism and racism:

http://www.safecom.org.au/eva-sallis-mch.htm

No Foxy, you completely disregard opposing argument and evidence. You are not about facts and balance at all. It is always a parallel 'discussion' where you broken-record, regurgitating the same old, same old that has been questioned, thoroughly dealt with and dispelled on numerous previous occasions.

The source you just quoted is an example of how you trawl for anything that could even vaguely be construed as supporting your prejudiced world view.

Sallis,"This is not a lecture such as a scholar would give. It is a lecture a novelist would give - that is to say, it is opinion, impression, invention and speculation."

As I said earlier in this thread, it is over sixty-five years since that photo I supplied was taken, with the Lithuanian migrants bestowing a gift and their heartfelt thanks on Arthur Caldwell for Australia's generosity in offering them sanctuary.

In all of the years you have been pursuing victimhood as a girl child of migrants who never sought it themselves you have yet to examine the status of industry, living conditions and the economy, at the conclusion of WW2. You are about advocacy for your own interests, to accord with your own world view, not balance.

otb,

Those Lithuanians with Mr Caldwell that appeared
in the news-media of the day - had not as yet
encountered any Australians - that came much later.
They hadn't even gotten of the boat yet.

It was the political tactic of the day - to present
Lithuanians as "favourable people" to the locals.
To win support for future immigrants. Up to that time
the country was totally isolated and against any other
immigrants other than British. Lithuanian immigrants
encountered prejudices from the very first days of their
arrival - as Dr Sallis and many others confirm and have
testified.
As do the documented historical government records.
By which I stand.

One other thing - I suggest that if you want to be
taken seriously -
that you get rid of the monkeys and biases that you carry around
with you. At present you are in no position to offer anything
to anybody. Your own bias makes a mockery of reasoned
discussion on this forum. It is very revealing what you
continue to post - despite all the evidence that has been
presented.

Foxy, "Those Lithuanians with Mr Caldwell that appeared in the news-media of the day - had not as yet encountered any Australians - that came much later. They hadn't even gotten of the boat yet.

It was the political tactic of the day - to present Lithuanians as "favourable people" to the locals."

It was 1947.

Garbage! You are stirring. None of them ever claimed the ill-treatment or discrimination you are claiming. You are (ill-)informed by your own sense of entitlement as the girl child of migrants. It is the bigotry you are forever accusing others of having. From your own account you have done very well indeed out of Australia. What do you hope to gain by your disrespect of Australians and the migrants too?

otb,

I stand by the documented historical records
of the time. I repeat - they can be found in Immigration
Museums, National and State Libraries,
and in the Bonegilla Migrant Immigraton Museum, and other
migrant museums and ethnic libraries around the country.

Of-course - while untrue - what you choose to believe is
beyond my control.

Kindly stop referring to me as "the girl-child
of migrants." I am not a child - nor a migrant.
Australia is a country of migrants. Your
ancestors as well as mine - all came from somewhere else
at some time.

I do not have a "chip" on my shoulder - nor am I
anti-Australia or Australians. I happen to be one.
I do not view presenting historical facts -
of previous government policies that affected so
many - as being bad. Nor do I view a criticism
of those policies as "sledging" Australia or
Australians. After all a tolerance of
criticism and dissenting opinions is fundamental to
democracy. It is important that governments should
recognise the grievances of minorities that have
little political clout.

This is the message that the add campaigns of "Beyond Blue,"
try to tell us about our Indigenous People.

cont'd ...

I am not the only Australian who has done well
in this country. But Well, so what.

What's that got to do with anything.

My parents greatly valued education and training.
They sent all of their children to higher education,
working several shifts in order to do it. We entered
professions, after years of ardous study, work, and sacrifice.
Nobody gave us anything for nothing. We had to work
for what we achieved.

Foxy,

None, nada, nil, zero, zilch, zip of those Lituanian migrants ever claimed the ill-treatment or discrimination you are claiming and you know it.

In wrongly and unfairly lambasting Australia you are embarrassing their attainments and memory too.

Individual wrote, "I have witnessed racism from anglo-saxons and non-anglo saxons and I'm not exaggerating when I say that I found the anglo-saxons to be the lesser racist".

Thanks so much individual for your open admission that anglo-saxons are racist.

otb,

It's very revealing that you think that
would be true.

Are you sure that this is an argument you want
to continue to make.

Onthebeach is not too bright Foxy. That's life.

Foxy "Your ancestors as well as mine - all came from somewhere else at some time."

So did the Aborigines.

The "Lithuanians" didn't suddenly appear out of thin air in "Lithuania" either.

They descend from a proto-Baltic people, who descend from Indo- Europeans, who descend etc.

If you negate the reality of "Australians" as a distinct local native ethnic group, by stating they're actually something else (British, European, Lithuanian), you negate the realities and histories of ALL peoples, because ultimately NO people on Earth had ancient ancestors *originating* in the land they now inhabit (except perhaps Ethiopians?).

Lithuanians are only Lithuanians, because they branched off from a former group (Baltic) and established their own territory (Lithuania).

They could only do this by separation from and exclusion of others not considered "Lithuanian".

Same goes for every other ethnic group (including no-hyphen-required Australians) and their homelands.

Branching/separating + exclusion + territory (usually conquered, not uninhabited) = Ethnic group/homeland.

It doesn't matter if this process began in 1788 BC or 1788 AD.

Dear Shocker,

Modern concepts of "nationality" and "ethnicity"
are fluid. Many nationalist historians of the
past timply used language and religion, to assign
national identity. Today, ethnicity is variously
seen as a set of characteristics pertaining to a
certain nationality and culture; or as a by-product
of the elitist manipulations aimed at winning mass
support; or as a cultural artefact or "a race without
the biology." The terms "nation" and "state" are
sometimes used inter-changeably as a system of human
classification. Alternatively "nation" is occassionally
resorted to signify a "country."

This issue can be complicated further, when nationality is
superimposed on citizenship. These two terms are often
used as synonyms in Australia. In that case, an infant of any
ethnic origin is said to acquire Australian "nationality"
by being born in Australia. Pn the other hand, the
European understanding is different. For example, recent
German citizenship laws stipulated that "the key to German
identity is found in the blood. A German is not someone born in
Germany, but someone born to ethnic German parents anywhere in
the world."

This separation of the two concepts of "nationality" and
"citizenship" will help to explain the attitudes and the
behaviour of Lithuanian immigrants (and others) in Australia.
It also lies at the roots of their belief that they could be
good Australian citizens and loyal Lithuanian nationals at
the same time. The political refugees of over 65 years ago
have become loyal Australians, although still with strong
emotional ties to Lithuania.

TBC

cont'd ...

Dear Shocker,

At present, Australia is one of the most ethnically
diverse societies in the world. Well over twenty per
cent of all Australians were born in another country,
more than half of these have come to Australia from
non-English-speaking countries of Europe, the
Middle East, South America, and Asia. According to
given stats more than 7 million (42 per cent) were born
outside Australia or had a parent born outside
Australia. Over 17 per cent speak a language other than
English at home.

However, the concept of multiculturalism continues to have
different meanings to different people. Anti-migrant
prejudices exist. Some Australians still believe that
"a unique Australian society and identity emerged with
Federation." These people are "most comfortable with a
singular national identity and of course assimilationst
policy." But as has been shown with the defeat of "One
Nation," these people are a minority.

Most Australians feel that the multicultural nature of
Australian society means that there is no single-national
identity but a gathering of many cultures and this is one
of the most unique and rewarding aspects of living in
Australia. The nature of being Australian is to be part
of this diversity.

Foxy, please stop confusing Shocker and OTB with logic and intelligence. Show some mercy, as the poor boys are barely coping.

Dear Jay,

Thanks for your humour.

It helps.

However, I am obliged to try and get through
with facts and documentation.

This comes from the prescribed text for year
twelve high school students in Victoria
that my son lent me called "The Changing
Australians: A Social History,"
under the heading - "The White Australian."

"While Australian television shows like "Skippy"
(about life in a national park as seen through
the adventures of a tame kangaroo) were popular.
the character of the Aussie housewife was mocked
by the clever comedy skits of over-the-fence-natter
by the Australian actress Dawn Lake. "You tell 'em
love!" became the symbol of the tea-sipping-hair-in-
curlers-over-the-fence-brigade."

"Later this humour was turned to the "Ocker" male, in
the style of Graham Kennedy and the writing of Nino
Culotta, and the city suburbs became the
backdrop for the new Aussie image."

" Now the language of the pub-crawling, Aussie gained
popularity. "You drongo," or "He's a galah," became the
accompaniment to the traditional "bloody bastard!"

"The suburban life and well-being of Australian society
became the butt of many jokes and the intolerance towards
"new Australians," and "coloured" was sent up as an
unjustifiable prejudice."

"It was not until the 1970s that the "Ocker Aussie" was
packaged for world consumption in films, cartoons, comics,
but once done, the exaggerated image of "Bazza (Barry)
Mackenzie" became one which many Australians were no
longer so proud of. This critical self-consciousness
had become more and more apparent in the late 1960s, and
forced both politicians and the public to revise not
only policies but also many of hte long-held and
cherished notions about themselves and the rest of the world."

I crave debate on issues and exchange of ideas of how we can solve real or perceived problems in our society. I've just started to come back to OLO after a quite a long hiatus. What I find interesting is the flaming and ridiculing of persons with different views without articulating the whys of their view.

Foxy and Suse, two of the very few of the women who were once on this forum and still valiantly posting. And there are a number of men too who are able to voice opinions, with which I might not agree, but will provide food for thought.

But there are a small group of men on this site who are virulent bullies and as far as I can see, reading through all the posts for the last few weeks on a variety of topics, really add absolutely nothing to the thread. It's abuse, upon abuse, upon abuse. It's a shame.

OLO could be a really great independent forum presenting issues from both conservative and progressive views resulting in a discussion as to why a particular avenue will result in the desired outcomes better or quicker.

Runner, I know many Christians. From the Evangelical (best friend) to those belonging to mainstream churches. In fact, I married into a family with a long history (4 generations) of being ministers and serving church and community. I fortunately have never encountered one like you. When I read some of your postings, you do not remind me of the teachings of Jesus Christ, but more those he railed against, like the pharisees.

Some of the others are just simply afraid of a changing world. It's fact fellows, the human family has never been static in regards to what it looks like or values, no matter how you may wish it to be otherwise.

Dear Yvonne,

Welcome back.

One of my favourite "End Racism Quotes",
comes from Hal Crowther, who speaking in the US stated
about certain groups of people, that they were -

"...Essentially entertainers, entertainers who
stimulate prejudice, selfishness, and meanness the way
a comedian works for laughs... they offer their
audience partisan belligerence and a complete package
of hatreds - designed for the coneptually and
ethically impaired..."

Thankfully in this country of ours,
these people are a small minority and are growing less
and less in number. Some people -
are not racists - they just hates everybody and anybody
who's different to them.

James Baldwin wrote so many years ago:

"It demands great spiritual resilience not to hate
the hater whose foot is on your neck, and an even greater
miracle of perception and charity not to teach your
child to hate."

It's only by studying history and learning about the past,
including the history of Indigenous-Settler relations -
that we can try to ensure not to repeat the same mistakes.

But knowing brings burdens which can be shirked by those
choosing to live in ignorance. Because with knowledge the
question is no longer what we know - but what we are now
to do, and that is a much harder matter to deal with
and will probably continue to perplex this country for some time.
However adds like the recent "Beyond Blue," campaigns may
just reach some people. They're worth doing.

Of course you're right - we should be able to have
civil discussions on a wide variety of issues even though
we may not agree. But some people are not capable of civil
discussions, they prefer arguments, condemnations, and
unsubstantiated accusations - despite the evidence and
documented facts that exist.

Perhaps this is to be expected on public forums such as
this one. People can hide behind the anonymity of their
keyboards. Although its a sad state of affairs in terms
of how we inter-act with each other.

Foxy,
You said, 8-8-14,"But some people are not capable of civil
discussions, they prefer arguments, condemnations, and
unsubstantiated accusations - despite the evidence and
documented facts that exist".

I take it you are referring to yourself in the above.

Remember, you said, "People who are in denial about racism in this country are simply ignorant. Lets look at the facts - we imprison
brown asylum seekers, we once celebrated our national day
with a white racist riot. There were assaults on Indian
students, a little political organisation called
One Nation, and of course "the intervention" - the heraldic
beak on our long hawkish treatment of Indigenous Australians".
Foxy, OLO Friday 18-4-2014 12.18.35.

So again I call on you to present your evidence that your 'racist facts' are not your misguided spin, which you posted simply to rubbish Australia. I am happy to debate each event with you.

[This person is a sock puppet who has been barred from the forum for offensive behaviour. If anyone notices someone like this turning-up again can you please notify me? Their previous persona was Jay123. Thanks, GrahamY]

As race is a myth, how can there be racism?

Jay123,
Desperate to get some attention are you?.

The ultimate in name calling, gee, golly, gosh.

[This person is a sock puppet who has been barred from the forum for offensive behaviour. If anyone notices someone like this turning-up again can you please notify me? Their previous persona was Jay123. Thanks, GrahamY]

Foxy, thanks for the linguistics lesson.
I'm well aware of all that.

I'm quite sick of the deliberate, manipulative confusion of "Australians" (distinct ethnic group) and "Australians" (citizens of any ancestry).
There really should be two different words.

When I speak though, I make it quite clear which of the two I'm referring to.

"It's only by studying history and learning about the past, including the history of Indigenous-Settler relations - that we can try to ensure not to repeat the same mistakes."

Like imposing the introduction of 6000 alien ethnic groups, without consulting, and getting the consent of, the native Australian population first?

I wonder when we'll get our apology.

Dear Shocker,

Not every Australian agrees with your take
on things.

Thankfully.

Here's an extract reprinted from "The Age,"
12/7/1980. They're random thoughts by Philip Adams
when he was asked to speak at a Canberra Conference on
"Multi-Culturalism" in the Eighties:

"My birth coincided with that famous multi-cultural event.
World War II. Not that it seemed an urgent threat - for we
lived in perhaps the most remote, ethnocentric, inward-
looking, and changeless society on Earth. No. not Lhasa ub
Tibet, but East Kew in Victoria."

"Our family name was Smith and my playmates had names like
John, Peter, and David. So when foreign kids began appearing
in the playground at East Kew State, we stopped chanting,

"Catholic dogs stink like frogs,"

over the fence at the Micks next door and turned on the
enemies amongst us, yelling,

"Go back to your own country, you reffos," in their frightened
faces."

"...It's important to remember Australia before the most
recent waves of migration. It was dull, self-satisfied, and
joylessly conformist. Not simply null and boring but
nullarboring. Not merely mindless but lobotomised."

"Of course, the option of multi-culturalism involves taking
some considerable risks - but almost every human advance is
based on experiment, innovation, and adventure."

TBC...

cont'd ...

Dear Shocker,

"In the past we've had to travel the globe (which thanks
to multi-cultural marketing, media, and technology is
suffering from galloping homogeneity) to see worlds that
contrasted with our own."

"In a multi-cultural society, such experiences would be
within walking distance , or over the back fence. Good
heavens we could even risk inviting them inside."

"Now the migration programme initiated by Arthur "two
Wongs don't make a White," Calwell started to make a
powerful impact. Hence my decision to abandon the
racist bodgies and become a multi-cultural mod."

"I remember the moment of my conversion to the second.
Walking into the Legend Cafe in Bourke Street, standing
beneath the Sinbad murals of Leonard French, ordering
my first "cappa-cheeno." Minutes later I'd learned
two new words from the man behind the hellishly steaming
expresso machine - "prego" and "grazie."

Now things happened in a rush. I saw my first films with
writing-on-the-bottom at the Savoy, had my first Greek
and Italian friends (mind you being second generation
they tended to over conform to Australian values. Still
it was a begining). And we began to suspect that the world
didn't end sharply a few miles beyond St Kilda beach."

[This person is a sock puppet who has been barred from the forum for offensive behaviour. If anyone notices someone like this turning-up again can you please notify me? Their previous persona was Jay123. Thanks, GrahamY]

Dear Jay,

It's best to remember that -
views such as Shocker's belong to a small minority
in this country. I cited previously - "they offer
their audience partisan belligerence and a complete
package of hatreds - designed for the conceptually
and ethically impaired."

The future does not belong to them.
They will end up on the dung heap of history - where
they belong.

Jay123,

Perhaps tis thee that has watched too many films?

"Different countries use varying terms for "aliens" including:

a legal alien is a non-citizen who is legally permitted to remain in a country. This is a very broad category which includes tourists, guest workers, legal permanent residents and student visa resident aliens.

a resident alien is a non-citizen who has temporary or permanent residence in a country.

a nonresident alien is a non-citizen who is visiting a country, for example as a tourist, on business, entertainers, sportspeople or in the country to receive medical treatment.

an illegal alien is a non-citizen who is present in a country unlawfully or without the country's authorization.

an enemy alien is a non-citizen who is a national of an enemy country."

In Australia "enemy aliens" were interned in WW II.

Foxy sweetie, please don't bring that disgusting bit of slime Philip Adams into the discussion, we don't want people chucking up all over their valuable keyboards.

Foxy,

Phillip Adams is your expert, eh? The self-described Bodgie, the Bogan of his day.

Now that has been dealt with so many times in so many threads before. Particularly where you went on and on and on with your broken-record sledging of Australians as 'Nullaboring' and needing to be diversified forever, and out of existence. Your despised culturally-deficient 'White' Australians, their culture and traditional inheritance to be expunged from the Earth.

You quote Adams because he is the guru of the same cultural elitism as you do. It is the cultural elitism of the fashionable, well-off educated middle class lefties of the Seventies. Dinosaurs.

You really are locked into a time warp, a rut, aren't you?

You say you are comfortably well to do, you and your architect partner. You have a university education, full rights and a full belly courtesy of Australia.

As an educated woman in public employment (as a well remunerated librarian) and as the child of migrants as well, you had the advantage of the special development and advancement conditions of affirmative action in the public services. Isn't forty years of advantage enough that your middle class entitlement demands even more victim status?

In fact you represent the privileged elite.

In brief because it has been dealt with often, you lack balance and personal insight.

You are forever enthusiastic to challenge, excuse, rationalise and scoff at any criticism of multicultural and immigration policy, or (say) the ethnic thugs taking over bikie gangs. But where your despised 'White'(sic) Australians are concerned, any and all criticism is fair and extended to the whole population.

Yours is the bigotry of the comfortably well-off educated middle class leftie snobs, cultural elitists. You are now so 'progressive'. As Peter Hitchens said on Q&A, the leftie 'Progressives' have already won the cultural war, so why are you still complaining?

Peter Hitchens,
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/qa_shows_the_triumph_of_the_ignoble_savage/

Dear Hasbeen,

Just attempting to add, enrich, stimulate and
amplify people's knowledge. It's an occupational
habit. When librarians do exercise our professional
judgement, we do make certain that our choices do
not contain inappropriate material. We fully recognise
that there are some areas that are anti-human, hurtful,
as well as harmful. For example, racism, sexism, anti-
Semitism, and so on. These areas are irrational avenues
of intellectual pursuit.

otb,

Lay off the stereotypes, and your irrational avenues of
intellectual pursuit

Foxy,

Those very Australians your foreign-cringing cultural elitism sledges as 'Nullaboring' and worse, are the very people who died in their thousands freeing that bastion of your cultural elitism, Europe, from a dreadful tyrant,

AND

extended that very generous offer of asylum to your forebears who were languishing in a camp of displaced persons under awful conditions following WW2.

While you cannot even find it in your heart to thank the Australia and the Labor politician, Arthur Caldwell, who offered the Lithuanian migrants the sanctuary they took up enthusiastically, the Lituanian migrants themselves did. However you even deny the evidence of a photograph taken at the time, claiming spitefully that it must have been some public relations exercise (in 1947 on that boat and given the conditions?!). It was the Lituanians who were giving the gift as a thankful gesture!

otb,

Repitition of false accusations does not make
them true. It turns them into - harrassment,
and abuse.

You need to stop.

Foxy "the option of multi-culturalism involves taking some considerable risks"

Option, what option?
We had a choice?

Look at what that "risk" has produced in America, Fiji, Israel/Palestine, the Former Yugoslavia and Soviet Union.

You'd think by the know we'd know the "risk" of mixing many peoples together is NOT WORTH IT.

"In the past we've had to travel the globe"

Now we have the internet, CD and DVD recordings, etc.

The world's cultures are *data*, accessible to anyone who wants it.

"Not every Australian agrees with your take on things"
"views such as Shocker's belong to a small minority in this country"

And among Tibetans, Faroese, Sami, Kashmiris, Palestinians, Basque, Kurds, Sardinians, Chechen, Manx, Turkish Cypriots, Québécois, West Papuans, Crimean Tatars, Tamil in Sri Lanka, Albanians in Kosovo, Cham in Vietnam, Copts in Egypt, Ossetians in Georgia, Toubou in Libya, Igbo in Nigeria, Moro in the Philippines, Ainu in Japan, etc.

I could go on and on and on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements

Many peoples in this world already live in Multiland and are not happy, Jan.

Such a movement will emerge here too one day.
The more multi, the more sooner.

JayI23 "he considered people of other ethnicity to be aliens."

Buy a dictionary.

Or perhaps Foxy can give you some linguistics lessons.

Dear Shocker,

I stopped reading your post after your reference
to options.

If the first words out of your mouth are to cry -

"Option, what options?"... chances are very, very,
high that you are in fact part of the problem.

To the 'Usual Suspects' had a great day out at our local 'Multicultural Fair' you want to try Jamaican Jerk Chicken. never had it before, tried a Colombian Rice Pudding, Tongan Coconut Buns and Aussie water. My partners friends from Samoa, their girls performed traditional Samoan dancing as one of the acts, very good. They learn traditional dancing at high school as part of culture group, great idea.

Dear Paul,

Sounds wonderful!

We've just returned from an early dinner at
Nevsky Russian Restaurant. The restaurant is
named after the famous main Boulevard of
St. Petersburg - Nevsky Prospekt.

They serve traditional Russian dishes - with a
twist. Our favourites are - Borsch (of course)
accompanied by Piroshki (home-made baked
pastry filled with minced beef), then there's
also Blinchki s Myasom (thin crepes filled with
minced beef), and of course Golubtsi (cabbage
rolls), and Strawberries Romanoff are a must.

Melbourne has so many excellent restaurants to
choose from. We're spolied for choice. All very
different, with superb food and service.

I have said this all before,

The multiculturalists are only interested in the 'nice' things like dance, music and culinary delights. They conviently forget about the baggage some cultures bring with them. Like centuries old hatreds of others, honour killings, oppression of women, forced marriages, FGM, and intolerance. Plenty of examples of such in Middle East right now, where people of the same race and culture are killing each other and have no regard for human life or suffering.

Multiculturalism divides us into tribes and does nothing to unite us in any endeavour to improve our society. The only object of MC is diversity which achieves nothing.

Our politicians are slowly coming to realise that the more diverse a society is the greater the risk of violence and conflict.

Foxy,
Melbourne also has many excellent bookshops where you can find recipe books on every cuisine imaginable, you don't need immigration to have interesting dinner parties.

Banjo,
The violence is a side issue really, what about the drug dealing, prostitution, financial scams and illegal labour practices?
Asian criminals are flocking here because their activities would attract severe sentences or the death penalty at home and the really funny part is that in addition to undercutting wages in the regular work force they're also undercutting the Australian illegal drug manufacturing and distribution network and the sexual services industry.

Dear Jay,

My dinner parties are said to be legendary.
I have been taught to cook by several "Master
Chefs," - including - my Lithuanian mother and my Russian
grandmother. I have also taken cooking lessons
from Stephanie Alexander, Maggie Beer,
and the courses given at - The Lakehouse Restaurant in
Daylesford. There's nothing like a personal experience
given by professional Chefs when it comes to
learning the art of culinary skills. All experts will
testify to that.

As for finger-pointing and blaming certain groups
for violence and crime in this country. The issues
are quite complex. However, perhaps the following
link may help:

http://www.omi.wa.gov.au/resources/clearinghouse/Ethnic_Minorities_and_Crime.pdf

Foxy,
<<My dinner parties are said to be legendar>>
So if they are so legenday how come none of the legendary folk at OLO never get and invite?

Damn!
That should read: "ever get an invite"

Foxy,

Your reference is a bit out of date but things don't seem to have changed much in nine years; still the same areas that have drive-by shootings and still the same suspects.
The only new thing seems to be locals going overseas to play out their fantasies; still we might see some beheadings in Sydney when and if they come back.

Dear SPQR,

At present dear chap, I can't entertain
any thought of dinner parties until I
fully recover from my second catheter
ablation. The procedure was far more intense
this time around. Hopefully it will prove
successful. Fingers-crossed. Then we'll see.

Dear Is Mise,

I'm so sorry that you've had such bad experiences
by the sound of it. I can only speak on my own behalf.
My experiences have been so positive - both in Sydney
(where I grew up), and here in Melbourne where I've been
living for many many years.

I take people as I find them.

Anyway, perhaps you could read the link I gave previously.
The Conclusion and Summary is quite interesting.

Jay and Banjo got it right. All those horrid alien cultures coming here provide us with "prostitution, drug dealing, financial scams and illegal labour practices" as shown by Jay, and "honour killings, forced marriage, FGM and intolerance" as shown by Banjo.

These migrants are the scum of the earth, and their goal is to destroy our wonderful white culture. Keep up the good fight Banjo and Jay, the vast majority of "real" Aussies are right behind you.

Banjo, "The multiculturalists are only interested in the 'nice' things like dance, music and culinary delights"

Maybe so, but there were and are always the leftist intellectual elite with their cultural cringe to Europe. In fact any culture other than Australia.

Some just have a hatred of 'white' Australia, expressed through put-downs such as "Australians are 'Nullarboring'" and much worse, disgusting epithets. When challenged for their own bigotry, they slip back under the cloak of multiculturalism and even claim that any criticism of their own intolerance must be 'racism', 'xenophobia' and as usual other negative personal PC epithets to diminish the credibility of their critics.

I think that judging from some of the comments
on this thread - the prejudice, bigotry, and
bias, displayed by the comments are a pretty
good match for any other bigotry that may
be out there.

Sadly, prejudice creates what it fears. The racism of the
minority and that of the broader society simply
reinforce each other. And of course our governments,
their policies, past and present, and the media,
don't help matters.

As Dr Eva Sallis tells us:

"If contemporary Australians are to live at ease with
ourselves, we need more education, less fear mongering,
and not least, greater honesty about the culture of
racism that is damaging us."

cont'd ...

"If the first words out of your mouth are to cry -
"Political correctness!" ...
chances are very, very, high that you are in fact
part of the problem."

Foxy "I stopped reading your post after your reference to options"

No, you read the whole thing.
You just have no legitimate way to contradict it.

Ethnic separatism is the historical and contemporary norm.
The natural inclination.

Multiculturalism is a dishonest, delusional, fabricated absurdity that truly satisfies the social needs of neither host nor guest.

"Melbourne has so many excellent restaurants"

And ethnic criminal networks they pay protection money to.

Paul1405 "tried a Colombian Rice Pudding"

And people had to migrate all this way to cook it for you?

No, you just need (a) a recipe and (b) the ingredients.
You don't need a different accent or skin colour to cook it.

Cooking is *learned* behaviour. It's not genetically inherited.

Dear Shocker,

I don't read your posts in their entirety.

I don't have to. They're all identical.
And as for countering your arguments.
I think your posts speak for themselves
completely.

Cooking is definitely - learned behaviour - that was the
point being made. One becomes a good Chef
from being taught by other Master Chefs in
the cuisine one is interested in. Learning from books
just isn't the same thing - as any good Chef will tell you.

Racism is also learned behaviour - and sadly it
can be passed on from one generation to another.
Luckily for us - most Australians feel that although it
may be natural to develop prejudices.
It is noble to rise above them.

Exactly Shockadelic, I worked in a large French restaurant for four years back in the 90's, most of the time there weren't actually any French chefs in the brigade, it was mainly White Aussies from the Western suburbs, a few Chinese and Indians and Poms.

Foxy, yes that's why people have always traveled abroad to study and returned with the latest "continental techniques".
Does it matter who's cooking the meal as long as they're properly trained?
Surely you and your fellow gourmands are assembled primarily to enjoy each other's company and the ambiance of the restaurant?
We go to local pub,for family gatherings and everyone pretty much orders the same thing every time, my wife gets the seafood platter, I have the Parmagiana, my older daughter has the chicken Kiev and the youngest daughter the garlic prawns.
The place is packed out on Saturday nights with heaps of Asian and Indian families out enjoying themselves as well, but go down to High st with it's half dozen Asian restaurants and for the most part they're half full or less.

Shocker, now that's where your wrong son, Colombian Rice Pudding, is actually made from the milk of the male South American Lama, Yep, the Colombians trek high into the Himalayan Mountains of South America, where they proceed to milk the wild lama's, they prefer to milk the male Delli Lamas mostly, but they will milk any lama that is wondering by at the time. A very wise old Aztec, his name was Billy Thorpe, gave me the recipe for Columbian Rice Pudding just before he passed on from this world. An ancient old recipe. lost in the mist of time, I think he got it off the back of a Cornflakes packet. As I can't speak Colombian, and since that's all old Billy could speak, there may be something lost in the translation, but here it goes.

40 galleons of Lama Milk, Delli Lama Milk preferred, if you can't get Delli Lama milk then just use what ever Lama milk is available at your local Wollies or Coles. failing that just use plain old Yaks milk, I do, but my pudding tasted like crap, but who cares?

1 ton of wild rice, I prefer the wild rice grown in the Atacama Desert myself, I get out early and pick my own before the suns up. but if you can't get Atacama Desert wild rice, well tough luck, just leave it out, no one will notice if there's no rice in your rice pudding, will they.

1 teaspoon of sugar, very important, boil the bloody lot in a 44 gallon drum for about a week, then serve to anyone you don't like, guaranteed they wont ask for seconds, all the more for you. Yummy!

Dear Jay,

Yes, it does matter as to who's doing the
cooking. At least to me. I'm very fussy
in my choice of restaurants - and if I
want French food - I would choose a
French Restaurant where the Chef is actially
French. The same goes for any other cuisine.
But of course it is a matter of one's personal
choices. Because I love cooking -
and having been taught by experts in their field,
I usually prefer to cook and entertain at home.
We don't eat out all that much - but when we do -
we are very selective and fussy about where we
eat.

Dear Jay,

I'm sorry that all you've experienced is pub food,
and worked in a restaurant that supposedly was
French but that didn't actually have any French
Chefs. It wasn't a French Restaurant by French
standards. And your daughter's "Chicken Kiev,"
is not the real deal when its cooked in a pub. She'd
know the difference immediately if she was served
the real thing. Once you tasted the real deal - you
would know what the difference was from the imitations
that you've been given. But never mind. If you don't
know the difference - it doesn't matter to you.
I know the difference - and it does matter to me.

Hi Foxy, we are lucky to have plenty of good restaurants in inner city Sydney, catering for all tastes and budgets. One of my favorites is a no pasta Italian place in Newton.
RisR, Gee! on a late Friday night on the turps, you can't beat a curried prawns and rice from the local chows, It always taste better than ya home cooked version, Chinese always goes better with beer, about 6 schooners later it all tastes great! LOL

Amazing, the so called multiculturalists here are all talking about resturants and in the press is a picture of a young Sydney boy. now in Syria, holding up a severed human head.

Now that is actual multiculturalism in action.

This boy will most likely return to Sydney. what wonderful stories he can relate to his classmates.

Dear Banjo,

Why continue to blame multiculturalism for extremism and
fundamentalism. That's an irrational,
inflexible attitud towards entire categories of people.
You ignore the differences among
individuals within those groups.

Prejudiced though always involves the use of
stereotypes - a rigid mental image that summarises
whatever is believed to be typical about a particular group.

Like ethnocentrism, stereotyped thinking is an almost
unavoidable feature for some in our society. These people
tend to think in terms of general categories, if only to enable
them to make sense of the world by simplifying its
complexity. I bet many of us have our own stereotype, for
example, of what an Australian Aborigine is like.

The essence of prejudiced thinking, however, is that the
stereotype is not checked against reality. It isn't
modified by experiences that contradict the rigid image.
If a prejudiced person finds that an individual member of a
group does not conform to the stereotype for the group as a
whole, this evidence is simply taken as -

"the exception that proves the rule" and not as grounds
for questioning the original belief.

Foxy, "Prejudiced though always involves the use of stereotypes - a rigid mental image that summarises whatever is believed to be typical about a particular group"

The cultural elitism of leftists who label Australians as 'Nullaboring' and worse is also prejudice, and hypocrisy as well.

Double standards.

Foxy,
It is quite apparent that people such as yourself and Paul are willing to accept that, for the sake of diversity, you want immigrants with alien cultural practices. Well I differ, I consider the risk unacceptable. I do not want those here that hold us in contempt, refuse to integrate, hold forced or underage marriages, mutilate little girls or oppress women just so I can enjoy some exotic food.

I expect all those arriving to respect our laws and society rules. I desire a cohesive community, with very remote chance of one encountering violence.

We need to be far more selective in who we allow in as migrants and refugees to reduce the risk of importing violence and alien cultural practices. There are plenty of non muslims that would like to be here right now.

Dear Banjo,

I fully agree with what you want for this country.
I want that as well. And -
I think most of us want the same thing. However,
all I am asking of you is not to tar all Muslims
(or any other group) with the same brush. Not all
Muslims are extremists or fundamentalists. And
sweeping generalisations such as yours do not
allow for individual differences as I've stated
previously.

Foxy,
As there is no way to determine which are good and which are bad, for the safety and well being of our country, we must stop any further muslim immigration.

Muslims have a strong reputation for not integrating and for violence and anti social behaviour. It is well known that they are intolerant and will not compromise anything in effort to get along with others.

For years there has been many examples and we must take heed of our experiences, aside from what has and is happening in other countries.

If muslims claim that is discrimination then it is their own fault. Their reputation is well deserved.

There are many others that have came here without causing any problems, including non muslims from the same countries. We do not have to tolerate violence and intolerance.

Dear Banjo,

Of course nobody wants to tolerate violence
(from anyone). And believe me I fully understand
your concerns and what you are saying. I just feel
uneasy about tarring all people in any group with
the same brush. I can only speak from my own
experiences with the Muslims that I happen to
know. And they have all been positive experiences.
For me, and I trust for them.
I can't speak on behalf of anyone else - except to
make suggestions that we continue to look at the full
complexity of the issues involved and not just sweeping
statements and generalisations.

Ayway, I certainly don't have all the answers - but I
full believe that prejudice creates what it fears.
The racism of the minority and that of the broader
society reinforce each other. If what you're saying
is true, what would it mean in terms of how we
interact with each other?

<<and in the press is a picture of a young Sydney boy. now in Syria, holding up a severed human head.>>
Banjo, if the picture proves to be genuine and not some cut and paste job by those who would gain advantage from it, then yes it should rightly be condemned as sickening in the extreme. This sort of thing does conveniently play into the hands of Abbott and co as they push their "terrorism" agenda.
Banjo in the 1950's and 60's should we have banned Italian migration on grounds they might have been Mafia members, or Germans because they might have been Nazi's.
Banjo what about the activities of christian religious cults, they are well supported by the Abbott government with tax free status, despite the charges that they are destroying families.
Foxy again some very good posts, could not agree more.

Foxy,
Unfortunately all Muslims are potential terrorists.
The Koran teaches death to all infidels and that is anyone who is not an adherent to their religion.
Look what is happening in North iraq today.
"Change your religion to Islam or be executed"
Surely that is enough of an example.
Drive through Tempe in Sydney and see the women cowering in their doorways afraid to even talk to their neighbors while their husband sit around the coffee shops watching them.

I've lived in Australia now for 38 years. I still travel quite regularly, but with enough time lapse to be really confronted by changes from places I'm familiar with.

My background is the Netherlands. Both my parents and I were born and grew up largely in developing countries. Some of the citizens of these countries appear to be very frightening to some people on this thread.

Whether the term multi-culturalism is policy or discarded is really of no relevance. Since WWII the movement of peoples all over the world is a fact. To hold on to some kind of mythical 'values' or picture of a nation of all the 'same' people is just not going to happen. There cannot be an exchange of goods and ideas, of trade and no movement of peoples. The West has benefited too much from this. Both financially and culturally.

Culture has never been a static thing. The only difference in this last century is that changes have been happening must faster than they did in the past. Changes that really started with the Enlightenment.

The past was not better. Today is better. Australia is one of the most wonderful nations, because of the blending of diverse people with diverse views, diverse experiences. This has vastly enriched us.

Holding onto set beliefs about any people is buying into some kind of caricature, for which there is really no excuse anymore.

Paul,
The picture could be photo shopped but it may be worse than what has been depicted. I read that there is another pic of daddy holding up the same head. So is this daddy's decapitation that the boy is holding. Would not surprize me if the terrorists hold that cutting throats and severing heads is done to show their mates how manly they each are. Cannot beat a practical demonstration to educate the boy.

Since 9/11 there have been 23598 terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. Bodies unknown but if average is 4 that is about 100,000 dead. For July they killed 2500 and injured about the same in 28 countries.

So is far more than 'just a few' radicals.

In Aus we have 21 crims in jail for terrorist activities and they are all muslim. Is that not significant?

There is no doubt that Islam and violence go together.

Authorities are rightly concerned and we need to stop muslim immigration.

yvonne, "My background is the Netherlands"

Maybe your claimed authority is dated. Have you kept in contact with the newspapers at all? What do you say in reply to this recent report by an independent research institute? See here,

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4129/islamization-belgium-netherlands#

I wasn't commenting on Muslims, that wasn't my concern in this thread at all. However there should be some balance and it is proved that Australia has imported terrorist risks, along with a whole range of organised crime bosses, most recently the feared 'Odessa' (Russian) Mafia.

While the immigration department is in disarray, the federal government must take sure practical steps to reduce the risks. Apart from demanding a report from the public bureaucrats there doesn't appear to be much happening in that way at all. Yet even one terrorist or criminal can wreak havoc for a lifetime, and may never be caught.

Banjo, how about a link so we all can be enlightened by these "facts" of yours. 23598 where did you get that figure from?

yvonne,

"Holding onto set beliefs about any people is buying into some kind of caricature, for which there is really no excuse anymore."

Excuse: Koran.

Paul,
And I thought you kept up with things.

Its a site that has been there for quite a few years and records terrorist attacks, with place, country and date, so they can be verified. It also carries other news related to events of muslims.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

While you and Foxy were discussing the culinary attractions of various cultures the real world was getting on with the practices of multiculturalism. But why should you be concerned about the unsavoury aspects of some cultures, you have been ignoring them for years.

Foxy,

It is your dogmatism.

It is not funny that you apply such labels to anyone with the temerity to disagree with you, or even question your orthodoxy.

You brought Tania Plibersek into the discussion. It is perfectly reasonable to demand of you as a partisan supporter of the previous Gillard/Greens government to list what the previous Labor government achieved on surrogacy during its six years on the government benches.

Easy question, but you dodge and weave.

Whoops, post to wrong thread (see above).

However the comment is relevant here too since Foxy has yet to enlighten all why her bias against Australians is Ok.

otb,

Whatever is eating you must be suffering
terribly!

Otb: I've actually commented on your particular link in the Depression/Racism thread. I won't repeat myself.

I keep very much up to date. Was there for a month earlier this year and pretty well daily read a number of Dutch newspapers online. There is more variety and flavour (still) in the Netherlands than here in Australia. And yes, I read from conservative to progressive papers. My lovely extended family range across the spectrum, though, like most Dutch, somewhere in the middle.

yvonne,

Thanks, I have replied to you as well. Copied here for your convenience,

<yvonne,
The link you gave was worthless.

On the other hand the Gatestone Institute you disparage seems to have experienced editors and contributors of repute. Here is an example,

<Amir Taheri
Chairman, Gatestone Europe

Amir Taheri was born in Iran and educated in Tehran, London and Paris. From 1984 to 1987 he was editor-in-chief of Jeune Afrique, the French weekly specializing in Africa. Between 1980 and 1984 he was Middle East editor for the London Sunday Times. He also wrote for the daily Times and contributed to The Daily Telegraph, The Guardian, and the Daily Mail among other leading British publications. Between 1972 and 1979 he was executive editor-in-chief of Kayhan, Iran's main daily newspaper. He has been a columnist for the pan-Arab daily Asharq Alawsat and its sister daily Arab News since 1987. Taheri has been a contributor to the International Herald Tribune since 1980. He has also written for The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Newsday, and The Washington Post. Between 1989 and 1995 Taheri was editorial writer for the German daily Die Welt. He has also written for other publications including Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung, La Repubblica, L'Express, Politique Internationale, Le Nouvel Observateur, and El Mundo in Spain. Currently he is a contributor to the German weekly Focus. Taheri has published nine books. In 1988 Publishers' Weekly in New York chose his study of Islamist terrorism, Holy Terror, as one of The Best Books of The Year.>

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/biography/Amir+Taheri

What do you say to that? Do you have anything from a reputable source in English that can challenge the credibility of the staff and contributors of the Gatestone Institute and the article quoted? The incidents they referred to were not bogus were they?

Otb, I know nothing of the Gatestone institute, so why would I disparage it? I didn't. I told you about this particular author and this particular article.

In fact, I am interested in reading other articles from this institute now I know about it.

Does that mean that when, no matter how eminent someone may be, I, or any other reader, cannot question or further investigate what somebody has written?

As for English articles, on occasion I try to find some, because I want to back up my research, but as I said before, a lot of research on policy and community are for local consumption in the Netherlands. Can be frustrating when I try to find an authority in English on say voluntary euthanasia, policy and experience on illegal drug use, or even prisons.

I gave the link, because I'm often surprised by how many fellow Australians either know Dutch or know somebody who does. Just in case you did too. Just because something is not translated into English doesn't actually make any authority 'worthless'. Especially when the language is that of the country referred to.

yvonne,

Your comment in the other thread did seem disparaging:
Yvonne,"The link you posted is a complete fabrication creatively using a few facts"

I will not respond to the Strawman in your reply.

No Otb. I did NOT say anything whatsoever about the Gatestone Institute, which is what you accused me of. I did say something about the ARTICLE and the author. Soeren Kern is not the Gatestone Institute. Or is he?

If you could have accessed the link I posted you would have been able to see where Kern was very loose with his interpretation. I won't say he deliberately lied.

I'm not altogether sure why it bothers you so much when a negative opinion about the Netherlands is countered by someone who has a wider access to information.

If an author, largely ignored in Australia (indeed not even Australian) wrote in a highly regarded Dutch or French language institute an article in Dutch or French about deeply ingrained and endemic misogyny in Australia, do you expect the Dutch or French to just accept that as fact and ignore other information in English from Australia?

Banjo, where does your hate site get its "facts" from. YOU! Where is the AUTHENTICATION! People such as yourself feed of that kind of rubbish web site, they tell you what you want to hear.
How about this, what do you get if you have;

1. A devout Catholic mother
2. Attend a monastic Catholic school
3. Believe in the Bible
4. Believe in the Christian God
5. Say "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior."

No its not Tony Abbott, its Adolf Hitler. LOL

Paul,

Just one of the references from the site that you disparage
came up with this on Google:

"UPDATE 1-Islamic State beheads, crucifies in push for ...
uk.reuters.com/article/.../syria-crisis-east-idUKL6N0QH2JZ20140811
1 day ago - Islamic State tightens control in tribal region* Other rebels, tribes attempt to ... to its control in eastern Syria, crucifying two people and executing 23 others in ... the militants crucified two men for the crime of "dealing with apostates" in the city of Mayadin, and two others were beheaded for blasphemy in the...."

doubtless further inquiries would find other references, try the second one on their list.

Is Mise, I am not disputing that there are crazy people in these failed states. I do not think that makes my Muslim neighbor a terrorist. Terrorism comes in many forms, the US response in Iraq and Afghanistan following 9/11 included many acts of terrorism of their own towards innocent people.
The events of today are the result of a long history of instability in these countries, some, but not all, is due to past actions on the part of the developed world. We can't change history; but

Proverb; Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

The world is in a very difficult situation, military intervention has proven not to be the answer. It did not work in Iraq or Afghanistan, Take one look at other Middle Eastern States where there has been recent western involvement, it did not work in any of those places either.
I can't offer an answer, I don't have one. Nor do the politicians.

Paul,
Why don't you try to prove the info is incorrect?

The site gives the date, place, country and the number killed. That should be enough for an astute person, as yourself, to verify events.

The site again http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Good to see that someone is keeping a record of terrorist attacks in the name of Islam

There are plenty of recent terrorist
attacks by other extremists and fanatics
on the web. Whole lists of them - all one
has to do is Google them. However, blaming
any entire religion for the actions of a
brutal minority of extemists within its
ranks - is like, well - blaming multiculturalism
for the behaviour of a few fanatics and trouble-makers.
Or - blaming all Christians for the sexual abuse of children
that some clergy engage in, or blaming all Jews for the
actions of Zionists, and so on.

Your (false) analogies are not arguments, Foxy.

Banjo, how does your web site prove my Muslim neighbor is a terrorist?
You put up the link, you should provide the proof, not me.
I'll throw one up and you can provide the proof.

"A Shiite man and his daughter are exterminated by committed Sunnis."

I await your proof that this statement is true in all the details. Names will help as will proof the man and daughter were Shiite and the other party, names please, were committed Sunnis and proof it was motivated by religion and not something else.
I'm not saying this simple statement isn't true, just where is the proof.
This should be easy I'm not asking for all 23611 just one for starters

As I said this hate site does not have to prove anything for people like you, you are a believer to begin with.

Paul,
No, you asked me where I got my information from regarding the terrorist attacks. I provided that.

The fact that you question the validity of the information is now your problem and it is up to you to try and discredit the site, if you wish.

As I said the listing gives date, place, country, number killed and number injured for each attack, so each can be verified.

I don't intend to do your work for you.

Paul, what I find frustrating is how many people want to believe really simplistic stereotypes. It still seems to be as easy to demonize a group of human beings as it did in WWI. And this after the supposed Age of Enlightenment with a very high level of education and information available.

I get depressed by how easy many people find it to hate and demonize other people. Especially when discovering they have in fact never personally, or even indirectly, suffered any kind of calamity at the hands of their supposed enemy.

The most virulent anti-Japanese speak I've encountered are from people who had no personal experience of the Japanese in WWII. Or of war. My entire family on both sides have suffered terrible things, as soldiers and as civilians, yet I've never ever heard blanket condemnation of the Japanese.

It's history repeating itself. People being whipped up and obediently baying along and those of us who have insight what this kind of baying can lead us to are made really afraid. My 80 year old mother wanted to murder George Bush with her bare hands when he invaded Iraq. She hopes there is a special place in Hell for him.

yvonne,

Second Sino-Japanese War (July 7, 1937 – September 9, 1945):

"Nanking should be remembered not only for the number of people slaughtered but for the cruel manner in which many met their deaths. Chinese men were used for bayonet practice and in decapitation contests. An estimated 20,000 – 80,000 Chinese women were raped. Many soldiers went beyond rape to disembowel women, slice off their breasts, nail them alive to walls. Fathers were forced to rape their daughters, and sons their mothers, as other family members watched. Not only did live burials, castration, the carving of organs, and the roasting of people become routine, but more diabolical tortures were practiced, such as hanging people by their tongues on iron hooks or burying people to their waists and watching them get torn apart by German shepherds. So sickening was the spectacle that even Nazis in the city were horrified, one proclaiming the massacre to be the work of bestial machinery."
The Rape of Nanking p.6

Lets leave your strawman rhetoric to one side and accept that it is the ideology, culture and so on (as promoted by the leaders), not the mums and dads Japanese that are rightly blamed for the Japanese atrocities and brutality in the Sino-Japanese wars and in WW2. [However that doesn't entirely absolve any Japanese who did monstrous things, like beating people and worse.]

So too it is quite appropriate to enquire if Islam is a toxic religion. Would the dreadful traditions, culture and offences still happen anyway if there was no Islam and no Islamic leaders?

What does seem ridiculous is the insistence by the leftists and especially feminists that Islam is beaut and blameless. Don't you accept that the Japanese officers and soldiers were fighting a holy war too? There do seem to be some parallels, yes?

Yvonne,

The Japanese Army did what they did because they were badly led, their officers did not practice the niceties of Japanese culture.

In other places, particularly where Naval officers were concerned, an entirely different ethos prevailed.

There is no book handed to the Japanese by their gods that exhorts them to kill those of differing religious belief or cultural practices.

There is nothing in Buddhism or in Shinto that tells them to conquer the world.

Islam has the Koran, need one say more?

Paul,

<<As I said this hate site does not have to prove anything for people like you, you are a believer to begin with>>

You're a believer too Paul. You want to believe that Islam cannot possibly be worse than any other creed.Though, I seriously doubt if you heard/read that some conservative figure did something dastardly you would apply the same level of skepticism (and need for proof) that you now apply to stories of Islam's excesses.

otb,

Still here singing from the same song-book.

Dear oh dear!

Get help!

Is Mise,

The Divine Emperor had declared a holy war. Overlay that with the Japanese warrior tradition (which is far from the idealised Hollywood version), a highly conformist society with ignorant peasants still emerging from feudalism, regimentalised schooling (and predictable effect on the children as adults)etc.

The soldiers themselves didn't need any encouragement from their officers to do dreadful cruelty, although the officers obliged and led.

Even accepting that the soldiers were themselves treated brutally, there still has to be personal accountability.

Agreed OTB, but Naval officers were subject to the same Emperor and there are records of some such officers acting with humanity and justice to non-Japanese who were placed in their care.

Even some of the prison camp guards did not forget their humanity (admittedly few); a friend of mine, now deceased, who was on the Burma Rly told me that he owed his life to some of the guards who shared their rations and medicines and did their best to help the prisoners in their care.

Unlike Muslims the Japanese who committed atrocities had no Sacred Book to tell them that they were doing their gods' will.

@Is Mise, Thursday, 14 August 2014 9:30:18 PM

Thank you for that. I agree. Well said.

Dear Is Mise,

The following link may clarify a few things
for you:

http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarCrimes/Explaining_JapWarCrimes.html