Ah, Pericles, methinks there is a thorn in your Gordian Knot.

>if you think that we can continue to increase our prosperity relative to the rest of the world, and our individual prosperity within that growth, by shutting our doors and creating fortress Australia.<

This statement appears to assert/suggest that all growth is inseparably bound to population growth, but underlying such a proposition is an assumption that the Earth's finite resources (and capacity to absorb environmental abuse) would by some magic be able to sustain ever-increasing populations the world over.
Not feasible - at least in my humble view.

The flaw in the proposition is that it fails to take account of the potentials of individual (per capita) 'productivity' increase.
The world is shrinking, populations must also shrink and per capita productivity increase to sustain and to grow individual affluence.

Oz is not yet 'full', but in my view the best option for increasing prosperity is to increase productivity - and that means to work smarter, and to get all hands pulling in the same direction.
The less distractions, the smoother the transition to the 'smarter' Oz.

Distractions: Housing and caring for an ever-increasing 'dependent' population, unrealistic wages and conditions, trashing of R&D provisions, inordinate barriers to innovation, scarcity of job opportunity, excessive focus on infrastructure at the expense of investment in long-term industrial/occupational development, too many wanting too much too soon, and lack of overall political vision.

To be 'can do', we'll all have to put our backs into it, and stop procrastinating and fabricating excuses.
A brave new world awaits.

A brave bid for mixed metaphor of the year, Saltpetre.

>>Ah, Pericles, methinks there is a thorn in your Gordian Knot<<

But you would be wrong to suppose the following:

>>This statement appears to assert/suggest that all growth is inseparably bound to population growth<<

Not at all. What was it that I wrote that gave you that idea?

>>...underlying such a proposition is an assumption that the Earth's finite resources... would by some magic be able to sustain ever-increasing populations the world over.<<

But we both know that isn't possible, don't we? There are indeed limits to growth. It is just that Australia has not reached that point just yet. As witnessed by the fact that our per capita GDP continues to grow, as the economy as a whole continues to grow.

>>Oz is not yet 'full', but in my view the best option for increasing prosperity is to increase productivity - and that means to work smarter, and to get all hands pulling in the same direction.<<

It doesn't have to be the only option, though. Growing the overall economy, which will enable it to better withstand cyclic variations, is also a good path.

O Pericles, you’re running right off the rails!

Your post is full of things that are just wrong wrong WRONG!

Where do I start…..

<< The country as a whole has increased its product by that much. The numbers tell you so. >>

My goodness! That is just staggering! You really are looking only at the numbers… and not at all at the real world, aren’t you.

I’ve brought to your attention just how utterly flawed the GDP numbers are, and yet you can continue to assert that because the numbers ‘tell’ you something, then that something must be true!

Well, you’ve just very succinctly shown how bad GDP really is. Not only is it utterly flawed, but there are people like you, and no doubt many who would call themselves economists, some in high-falutin and very influential positions, who look at the numbers, only the numbers and nothing but the numbers… and make very important decisions that affect Australia’s economic future based on those utterly flawed numbers!!

<< Have each of us experienced that level of increase in our prosperity? Of course not. >>

Right. And have each of us experienced the level of increase in prosperity indicated by per-capita GDP? Of course not.

<< But on a per capita basis, we are all better off, as once again the numbers clearly show >>

Oh puleeease!

Sheesh, I went to considerable lengths in my last quadruple post to explain why our ever-increasing per-capita GDP does NOT indicate that we are all better off. You have just slipped past all of that, without comment… and continued to make absurd assertions!

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I wrote:

>>Alright, I have established that GDP is enormously errant as an economic indicator. Well… obviously if GDP is fundamentally flawed, then per-capita GDP is also fundamentally flawed!<<

You quipped:

<< You haven't. So it isn't. >>

Mwa haa haaaa!! Thanks for the detailed response ( :>). Surely if you truly believe that is it isn’t, then you could have put a bit of substance into your reply. The fact you haven’t strongly suggests that you really do see that GPD and hence per-capita GDP are indeed fundamentally flawed. But of course you would be loath to concede anything in this regard.

<< …your standard anti-immigration rant… >>

<< …by shutting our doors and creating fortress Australia. >>

You’re scraping the bottom of the bucket there Pericles. We’ve been head-bangin on this forum for a few years now. You totally know my views on immigration. You know that I am not anti-immigration and that there nothing ‘fortress Australia’ about my desires. Shame shame shame on you for stooping to this very low level, of asserting things about my views which you know are not true. I’ve told you this a few times over the years, but you keep occasionally falling back to this very low quality of correspondence.

I call it as I see it, Ludwig. Sorry if that doesn't meet with your approval.

>>My goodness! That is just staggering! You really are looking only at the numbers… and not at all at the real world, aren’t you.<<

I am looking at the numbers because that is what GDP consists of. Numbers. The source of those numbers is clearly defined. If you don't like what they tell you, or disagree that they have any validity in your world, that is, regrettably, your problem.

>>I’ve brought to your attention just how utterly flawed the GDP numbers are, and yet you can continue to assert that because the numbers ‘tell’ you something, then that something must be true!<<

You have stated that in your opinion, GDP numbers are "utterly flawed". Unfortunately, they cannot answer back, because a) they are just numbers and b) the activities that they track are clearly defined. So it is not the numbers that are flawed, just what you choose to read into them.

>>I went to considerable lengths in my last quadruple post to explain why our ever-increasing per-capita GDP does NOT indicate that we are all better off.<<

You certainly went to considerable lengths, Ludwig, but you didn't actually say anything meaningful. Most people would consider an increase in their share of GDP to be a good thing, in exactly the same way that they would consider a decrease to be a bad thing. But if you don't share that view, that is a personal issue, not an economic one.

"You haven't. So it isn't." was a straightforward response to your claim that "I have established that GDP is enormously errant as an economic indicator. Well… obviously if GDP is fundamentally flawed, then per-capita GDP is also fundamentally flawed!"

Somehow you seem to believe that just because you assert something, it must be true and correct. Sadly, this is rarely the case.

>>You totally know my views on immigration. You know that I am not anti-immigration<<

As I said before, I call it as I see it.

<< I call it as I see it, Ludwig. >>

Not always Pericles. Some of your comments such as:

<< shutting our doors and creating fortress Australia >>

…are surely not genuine expressions of how you see my views. You know me better than that. They seem to be cheap insults and false assertions that know full well are false.

Hey, we do have good debates. We’ve had a lot of them on OLO. I really appreciate that. And despite the tetchiness and cheap insults from time to time, it has been and remains really good… and I thank you for it.

But it would be better without those sorts of false assertions.

<< If you don't like what they [the numbers] tell you, or disagree that they have any validity in your world, that is, regrettably, your problem. >>

Um…. no…. it is certainly not just my problem. It is a major problem for our society. To have such a terribly flawed prime economic indicator, which our decision-makers seem to take as gospel, is of enormous importance to the future of our nation, to the ability for us to match resource demand and supply capability, to get ahead in terms of genuine quality of life factors and to achieve a sustainable society.

The ramifications of the flawed nature of GDP are absolutely enormous.

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