<< So as far as you are concerned Ludwig, words mean anything you choose them to mean. >>

That’s a silly thing to say Pericles. You have carefully explained what you mean and I have carefully explained what I mean.

You’ve got to admit that my interpretation and definition is every bit as good and as valid as yours.

More later.

Jeez, I must have the patience of a saint.

>>You’ve got to admit that my interpretation and definition is every bit as good and as valid as yours.<<

Let's run through that again, shall we.

Mine are not interpretations. They are definitions.

And they are not my definitions. They are dictionary definitions.

Here are those dictionary definitions once again.

add (verb)
1. join (something) to something else so as to increase the size, number, or amount. e.g. "a new wing was added to the building"
2. put together (two or more numbers or amounts) to calculate their total value. e.g. "they added all the figures up"

include (verb)
1. comprise or contain as part of a whole. e.g. "the price includes dinner, bed, and breakfast"
2. make part of a whole or set. e.g. "we have included some hints for beginners in this section"

And here is Ludwig-speak.

>>Hey, you can look at ‘included’ as either not adding to a total as you do, or adding to a total as I do. Both are legitimate interpretations. My interpretation is just the same as adding something to the total. Including in… Adding… Same thing.<<

Once again, with feeling:

So as far as you are concerned Ludwig, words mean anything you choose them to mean.

>>More later.<<

Can't wait.

I'm eagerly anticipating a Ludwig-ized version of that old Bill Clinton classic, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"

For goodness Pericles. More words do not right you make!

I said:

<< More later >>

You should have held off and given me a chance to properly reply to your previous post. Heaven knows I could write a whole book about it!!

Crikey, I’m the professional beachbum, having taken a redundancy some time back. While you’re apparently the professional businessman, in charge of several employees. And yet you seem to have much more time to indulge in OLO than I do!!

Alright, please consider this:

GDP has been telling us in no uncertain terms that our economy’s been hootin along in recent years, yes?

Afterall, we’ve had a hooter of a mining boom, and we’re still right in it, just back a bit from the peak. And we’ve had hootinly high growth due to horribly high immigration for decades, except for a bit of a low patch under Keating if I recall correctly.

And yet…… we’ve got major issues with the Federal budget, with infrastructure, with services like health and education, major environmental issues, major discontent with politicians, term after term whether they be Lib or Lab… and in short: we are pretty obviously not gaining a higher quality of life or a more secure future as a result of all this growth.

GDP, being the horribly flawed measure that it is, has been MISLEADING US TERRIBLY!!

continued

Now, if GDP had been formulated so that it didn’t include all the economic growth generated by immigration that just duplicates all the basic requirements for that extra population, and it didn’t include stuff that happens as a direct result of economically negative disasters, accidents and illness, then it would have come somewhere much closer to giving us a realistic indication of what is really happening here.

<< So where do you count expenditure on hospitals? There is a vast army of people out there tending the sick, which is clearly one of your "not positive" activities, given that the patients are non-productive for the duration of their illness. >>

YES there is a 'vast army'! And all this sort of economic activity should be NEUTRAL to GDP!

<< Your problem, as has been pointed out before, is that you are unhappy that GDP counts everything. You want it to count only "good stuff", without being at all certain where the line may be drawn. >>

<< Well tough. >>

Hahahaa. That’s bizarre!!

Of COURSE I want the indicator that’s supposed to indicate only good stuff to only include good stuff.

And what do you want? For it to continue to be an incredibly basically fundamental dismally gravely flawed FALSE indicator…. which you KNOW includes a WHOLE lot of stuff that should be considered neutral or negative, and calls it all positive!!

The proof is in the pudding, Pericles.

The pudding is the high GDP growth that we’ve had for many years. But there is decided lack of pudding when it comes to the types of real improvements across our society that that high GDP has directly and unequivocally told us that we should have been having for all of those years, due to a hootinly good rate of economic growth!

<< At the risk of repeating myself, this is deeply "flawed" economic thinking >>

Please, just sit back for a moment…. and ponder just how deeply flawed your thinking is on this issue. Perhaps you need to learn a little about REAL economics!

Yeah, right.

>>Please, just sit back for a moment…. and ponder just how deeply flawed your thinking is on this issue. Perhaps you need to learn a little about REAL economics!<<

And this advice comes courtesy of...

>>...the professional beachbum<<

Go... catch a wave.

Or whatever it is you beachbums do.

Just don't, whatever you do, start your own business.

Pericles, don’t tell me you’re giving up?!?

What about my ‘proof in the pudding’ comments?

Irrefutable aren’t they.

All we need to do is to look at the nature of GDP, which has been growing like the clappers for many years, and compare it to our real-world economic situation and….. it all becomes glaringly obvious that there is something extremely wrong with the way GDP is formulated!

So, to uphold GDP as being of a sound economic basis is just terribly poor, for anyone who has a realistic understanding of economics.

Look at the rate of GDP growth in the last three years: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/gdp-growth

Average growth of 0.81% per quarter since the start of 2011.

It has averaged 0.88% per annum from 1959 to 2013.

This is an absolutely staggering growth rate when you think about it. In fact GDP has increased by some 250% just since 2004!! http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/gdp

So…. with this sort of indication from GDP, how is it possible that we have a Federal budget ‘crisis’, or a humungous need for infrastructure expenditure or declining benefits for pensioners and other welfare recipients or the prospect of increasing prices for just about everything or a forthcoming increase in GST, or all sorts of other things, all of which clearly indicates that things are not going too well for us economically?

I mean; GDP is at the most stark odds with the very things that it is supposed to be indicating are in good nick!! !!

And the biggest reason for this is our absurdly high rate of immigration – or more specifically; all the economic growth that is needed to simply give this massive number of new immigrants each year all the basic infrastructure and services that the established population has, all of which makes a HUGE contribution to GDP… but which is at best neutral... and absolutely should NOT be part of the GDP calculation!