Neville Wran one of Labor's most popular and
controversial leaders has died at age 87.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/obituaries/neville-wran-praise-controversy-and-balmain-boys-don't-cry-quote-marked-time-in-office-20140420-zqx46.html

He is to be given a State funeral.

I remember him as a very charismatic figure and a reformist.

How do others on OLO remember him?

That other one's still hanging in at our expense although oblivious to it all.

Dear Individual,

Is this your best contribution to
this discussion?

Seriously?

Foxy,
No, I'm sure I'm capable of better but I don't think it possible to be more realistc in this scenario.

Dear Individual,

Ok. Then if you have something to say -
spit it out. Because you're being extremely
vague at present. And we'd all like to know
just exactly what you are talking about.

From a distance he certainly appeared to be a much better proposition than the other long termer, the rat bag Carr.

Wran...the paragon of virtue. There were only 3 royal commissions into his activities, the result being the commissioners stating that he was so cleverly cunning, that even they (the commissioners) found themselves implicated in some way. Ergo, they could do nothing.

From memory, there was the "bottom if the harbor" affair, the raping of the health system through his hatchet man Laurie Brereton (the minister of putting his name on billboards, as he was come to be known), raping of the transport system so that now it's all contracted out...just go to the Blue Mountains, where there's been TWENTY YEARS of road works, and STILL no dual carriageways, but lots of 40km zones!!

Much, much more, but memory fails me now, but his swansong of gaining a cleaning contract for government offices, as a lawyer, for $1M per year, is indicative of his rorts throughout his premiership.

Bob Askin was considered a criminal, but Wran made him look like a choirboy.

Foxy reckons I'm being vague with my comments. I think she knows exactly what I'm on about just doesn't want to risk opening another can of worms. Maybe she can't source any links on wasting so much taxpayer money for several decades on ex politicians & senior public servants that already cost us dearly before the generous pension.
Care to give us the figures Foxy on how much we've paid for ALL PMs no longer in office thus far ?
Never mind the Premiers, just too hard to swallow such figures whilst the workers have to tighten their belts.

Yeah, Nick Greiner threatened a no-holds-barred enquiry into government corruption during Wran, so Wran resigned and they put Barry Mogadon (Unsworth) in. If you want an example of how to go through the motions of an election campaign that you WANT TO LOSE, just look back at that one. Greiner won in a landslide, only to be usurped by his own party that wanted to continue the corruption.

The Health system has never recovered from those years, and we spend a lot more today to gain a lower quality service as a result. The road system is obvious, as is the public transport system.

Do you remember Harry M Miller being jailed for a BS charge? It was because he was having an affair with Jill Wran, and that's how Neville got his revenge. The Premier's Office is just a den of thieves.

Thank You for your comments.

My recollections of Neville Wran are somewhat
different. I remember a charismatic man, an
intelligent and amusing communicator whose
values were not determined by opinion polls.
A man who legalised homosexuality and reformed
anti-discrimination laws. A man who had a solid
commitment to public education and worked to establish
the University of Western Sydney. A man who invested
massive sums in rebuilding the railways and electrified
regional rail services both to Newcastle and Illawarra.

Then of course there were the rainforests of NSW and
the redevelopment of Darling Harbour and the building
of the Sydney Entertainment Centre. Perhaps that's
why he was re-elected so many times. He also had many
friends on all sides of politics. The current PM,
was very generous in his tribute to the Mr Wran, and
being offered a State funeral is no small expression
of the value placed on him as Premier and the contributions
that he made to the state of NSW.

http://www.news.com.au/national/nifty-neville-wran-had-all-the-right-moves-to-survive-in-politics/story-fncynjr2-1226891616429

Sure. And Hitler provided infrastructure, jobs, roads, hospitals and schools for the German people. But we don't remember the few good things amongst the scale of atrocities he committed, do we? Wran was the MOST corrupt NSW Premier of the last five decades, hands down.

Dear DD,

If the world consisted simply of some self-evident
reality that everyone perceived in exactly the
same way, there might be no disagreement among observers.
But the truth of the matter is that what we see in the
world is not determined by what exists "out there."
Our outlook on the world is also influenced by our
background, training, education, past experiences,
political outlook, - in other words from a viewpoint of
subjectivity.

Inevitably then, we are all guilty of some measure of
bias - the tendency, often unconscious to interpret facts
according to our own values.

You are of course entitled to your opinion of Mr Wran
The same as I am entitled to disagree with it.

Cheers.

Foxy, well said, and no dispute with the sentiment of your last post. However, judging by the title of this thread, you're into a form of suburb worship, and subsequent hero worshipping, either on an origin basis or political party basis, or both. This lends itself to a disproportionate amount of subjectivity. Or in other words, bias. I'm apolitical, supporting neither side of the political spectrum, observing what good things are done versus what bad things are committed. That doesn't preclude me from bias nor subjectivity, but I don't hero worship...it leads to too much disenchantment. :)

Dear DD,

I don't hero worship Neville Wran.
However, I do tend to focus more on a
person's achievements, especially when they
have died so recently. And this discussion
was raised with the hope that people would
pay their respects to the memory of
the man who did quite a lot for the state
and also consider
the feelings of his family during this time.

I don't believe it possible for someone to rise through the ranks to ultmately qualify as a person of integrity.
Both, Foxy & DD have opposing impressions of the one character & I believe that good characters find themselves compromised in their integrity due to people with no integrity with they have to try to make things work.
So far as State funerals are concerned I think it's inappropriate if the deceased is not in office.
We need a referendum on such use of public funding.
We have quite a few ex PMs & ex Premiers to bury in the future & if they all get a State funeral then the coffers can't be as low as we're made to believe & none of those belt-tightening tactics are then not justyfied. I was always led to believe that such romp & pomp was the doing of the much despised Tories. It looks as though the left is no better in that regard.

Dear Individual,

There's far better ways of 'trimming the fat,'
so to speak than state funerals. Just take a
look at how much we spend on the perks that
politicians do enjoy whilst in government
as well as how much it costs the taxpayers to
keep them once they retire - Google the costs
involving our former PMs for starters.

However, regarding state funerals. They're usually
held to honour people of national significance.
As far as Neville Wran's funeral is concerned it
was afterall the new Liberal Premier who made the offer
to the Wran family. This is in keeping with
the NSW tradition of offering state funerals to
former Premiers. Which is perfectly normal.
So don't resent it. I'm sure the family will
appreciate it.

This is in keeping with
the NSW tradition of offering state funerals to
former Premiers. Which is perfectly normal.
So don't resent it. I'm sure the family will
appreciate it.
Foxy,
I fully expect an incumbent to get that sort of money spent on but a wealthy pensioner ? No, I draw the line there. My family would appreciate it if we could get the tax office to not worry about twenty dollars we owe them ?
Or people who forgot a parking fine or any other petty amounts. But no they get hounded to no end whilst the bureaucrats blow hundres of thousands on a funeral.
And, yes I do resent such waste & I'm sure others feel that way too.

Dear Individual,

Thank You for your opinion.

Okay Foxy, you've mentioned some specific things you liked about him, here's a few specific things as to why I don't:

* at the stroke of a pen, he eradicated a level of intellectual disability, removing 300,000 people from the eligibility list for services;

* he closed down psychiatric hospitals, putting many people that were unable to fend for themselves on the streets. From one alone, over the next 12 months, 100 ex-patients died from suicide or misadventure;

* The Harbor Tunnel was a "bottom of the harbor scheme", and though admittedly good for the city, was fraught with corruption and bizarre cost increases, and Darling Harbor not much different.

* it was BECAUSE of Wran, that Nick Greiner instituted ICAC...though this in itself over the years has only become a political appointment post, now a toothless tiger.

* though the police force was already corrupt, he certainly did nothing to change that. Again, it was after Wran that the NSW police got a severe shake-up.

There's more, but I'd have to do some research rather than run from memory :) .

So though he may have improved the rail service to a couple areas, and hugged a few trees, it cuts no ice with me compared to the lives he ruined.

He did also warn future governments not to sell off public assets as will kill revenue streams look at the mess today

He did also warn future governments not to sell off public assets as will kill revenue streams
Aussieboy,
That's one of the easiest things to say when you're no longer in charge & the taxpayers support you over-generously.
Look at the mess today ? Well, his ALP mates obviously didn't take him seriously enough to dig that immense hole we're in now & the Coalition is working on getting us out of.

Dear DD,

Thank You so much for giving me such an honest
and open reply. This is exactly what I was hoping
people would contribute to this discussion.
Sharing what they remembered about that time.

My recollections differ somewhat from yours.
I don't know the details of what you claim - I do
vaguely recoall though that there was some sort of
scheme "Beds to the West Program," that was set
up by Neville Wran to free up money to build and
develop hospitals and health services (including
psychiatric) in the West, South West, and North
Sydney because health services in these areas needed
development. The Westmead Hospital for example was
opened in 1978 by the Premier, Cumberland Hospital
(Mental Health Srvices) - Hospital at Blacktown et
cetera.

As far as ICAC and corruption goes the following link
may be of interest:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/comment-and-analysis/remember-failings-of-wrans-nsw-before-curtailing-the-icac-20140423-373il.html

Er, Cumberland hospital is 100 years old. Westmead hospital was commenced prior to Wran's tenure...opening it is meaningless. He shut down Rydalmere Hospital's psychiatric facility, Gladesville Hospital, commenced the wind-down of Roselle Hospital, and reduced the capacity to Cumberland and Nth Ryde, and Goulborn Hospital was wound down too.

He moved nursing to university under the guise of "professionalism" and closed the psychiatric centres under the guise of "deinstitutionalization". Prior to this, to become a registered nurse in psychiatry or disabilities took 3 years, comprising of 1800 hours of lectures and on-the-job training. Once in university, mental health comprised of a ONE HOUR lecture during a three year degree to be a nurse. It has now risen to the dizzying heights of 10 hours over 3 years. Disabilities don't get a mention.

Professionalism? If you call 10 hours of lectures "professional", then I suppose so. But the effect has been devastating.

"Deinstitutionalization"...sounds great. One might even get a warm fuzzy feeling over it. But if I call institutions "centralized services", it doesn't sound negative, but a damned fine idea!

What has resulted, is high costing facades that look good, but provide much lower quality of care, and horrendous costs in provision of housing, transport and provision of all services, staffed by unqualified personnel.

So in effect, he has downgraded the quality and education of nurses in the fields of mental health and developmental disabilities, increased the costs of service provision to those two areas, and made a bad joke of both.

I'm not denying that the institutions needed a change in how they functioned, but what has replaced them is a bad joke by comparison to the service that was previously available. Now mental health units are attached to general hospitals, staffed predominately by nurses that we previously wouldn't accept, either due to their lack of insight, or inability to comprehend the material in a meaningful manner.

Suffice to say, talk to any nurse that gained their qualifications under the old "hospital-based training" method, and they'll tell you basically the same story...the system has turned into a shambles.

Dear DD,

I can't comment on the accuracy of what you've
written.
Perhaps as you suggested nurses like Suse who
contributes regularly to OLO may know
more on the subject. I wasn't aware that the
nursing profession was in a shambles as you put it.
I thought it was doing remarkably well.

Anyway, Mr Wran's funeral has now been given a date.
It's 1st May and will be held at the Sydney Town
Hall. It will be interesting to see how many people
will pay their respects to the man in Sydney.

cont'd .

According to Wikipedia - the Westmead Hospital
was established and opened by Neville Wran
in November 1978. Apparently Askin wanted to
establish it but did not have the funds, then Whitlam
offered the funds - but by then Wran was the Premier
and he went ahead and did it.

Anyway as far as nurses are concerned - the following
link may be of interest:

http://newmatilda.com/2014/04/22/nifty-and-nurses

Nursing is NOT a "profession", unless you want to use the loose dictionary definition of deriving an income from gainful employment. In which case, a garbo is also a professional. But if you mean "professional" in the same terms as doctors, lawyers, engineers and even real estate agents: that they subscribe to an independent autonomous governing body (we don't), and that charge fees rather than work for wages (we don't), and a third criteria that eludes my memory (which I know we don't as well), then no, nursing falls miserably short of the criteria. That's not to say we can't have a professional attitude, but strictly speaking, we aren't a profession. Other nurses hate me for pointing that out, but hey! It's a good idea to understand a term before one uses it.

If Suse was qualified and worked in disabilities and/or mental health under the old "Fifth Schedule" system, I'd be interested to hear her thoughts. If not, then it's moot, since she couldn't draw a meaningful comparison.

Jenny Haines?!?!? Ha!! She sold nurses out and I wouldn't spit on her grave. I was a union rep at the time of the transition, and together with members of the other union, put together a proposal to improve the standard of training, staffing and short falls created by gaps in the new system. The members of the other union (H & RNA) of course, couldn't attend the meeting, since Haines was president of the NSW Nurses Association, but here's the result of the meeting that a couple others and I had with her...

After a 2 hour meeting, being able to address her every concern favorably, her parting words were, "I can't accept your proposal due to the fact THAT YOU ARE PREPARED TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE GOVERNMENT". She then walked off.

We were flabbergasted! That piece of excrement sold us all down the river in an attempt to gain favor with the government in the hope for a political appointment, since she had aspirations to politics.

So PLEASE, don't use anything she says as your argument, since she NEVER represented nurses, but only her own self-serving aspirations.

Westmead hospital...Whitlam made the commitment, Askin eventually accepted that federal funding, and construction commenced. Wran opened it. You should read your own links more thoroughly.

Dear DD,

Firstly I do not agree with your statement
that nursing is not a profession.
A profession - is a type of job that requires
special education, training, or skill.
And most professions in the medical field require
years of training. Nursing requires special
knowledge and long and intensive training. It
certainly qualifies as a profession. Comparing
nursing to garbage collectors is just plain
silly and can't be taken seriously.

Did you look up Wikipedia under Westmead Hospital.
That I did read quite thoroughly.

As for your take on the author of the New Matilda
article. That's your personal experience and I
don't doubt it. However, it's still interesting to
read what she had to say about Neville Wran and
nurses.

We're all entitled to our opinions.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmead_Hospital Look under "History" and it reiterates what I said.

Apparently you think 1-10 hours of lectures qualifies as "special training and skill" to call yourself a professional mental health nurse. I don't. I call it an insult to the term profession and to psychiatry.

I listed 2 of the 3 criteria by which an occupation may call itself a profession, none of which nursing meets. So loose dictionary definitions may be good enough for you, but try putting that one past a doctor, lawyer or engineer, and then stand back for the raucous laughter. But I suggest that you learn what a "profession" IS, before you start espousing terminology that you have no understanding of, as you're using a definition that is no different to calling a garbo professional. Your not liking the analogy is meaningless in the context of you not understanding the terminology. I know you think you do, but while you're excluding the 3 criteria of a "profession", you don't. But don't worry, most of my colleagues are illiterate too, so don't beat yourself up about it, but please do some research before attempting to use the word "profession"...at least with me.

Dear DD,

I am talking about registered nurses who have met
the required and standards and qualifications
of their profession as set out by the Nursing
and Midwifery Board of Australia for professional
recognition. And I'm certainly not talking
about people who've completed only a few hours of study.
They're not registered nurses or professional members
recognised by the Board.

Gallup polls and surveys show that
Nursing has been listed as one of the
most respected professions,
but if you want to insist that it's not a profession
well that's your opinion.

Your comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired...after doing a 3 year degree, 1-10 hours ONLY spent on mental health (depending upon when and where they did their degree), they are RNs able to call themselves "professionals" in mental health nursing, for no other reason than selecting to work in the field. So, it's gone from 1800 hours of lectures amidst 3 years of on-the-job training, down to 1-10 hours of lectures ONLY. A cocktail waiter spends more time learning to make cocktails than nurses learn about mental health...and a cocktail waiter would be better than most nurses fresh from the college of knowledge. 99% of what they learn at university is totally irrelevant to mental health, but very relevant to medical health care.

If they want, they can then do a Masters of Mental Health, and though I've worked with people that are in the process of doing their Masters, I have NEVER worked with anyone completing it. Not because it's difficult, but it's used for advancement into management, NOT for application of knowledge with that specific client group.

As I've tried to explain, just because people commonly misuse the word "profession", doesn't make an industry a profession. Do some research rather than merely stating it's my opinion. If you're too lazy, that's your choice, but one would think that you'd like to confirm your own opinion while disputing mine. So, someone completing an Arts degree is a professional artist, are they? They've studied art for 3 years, after all. The CES has another term for Arts students...(professionally) unemployed. Are you sure you don't want to re-evaluate your "definition"?

You're big on misinformation, so far you've stated that Cumberland was opened by Nifty Nev, yet is 100 years old, tried to attribute Westmead Hospital to Nifty, and now don't want to research the meaning of "profession" and the criteria needed to be met to use the term appropriately. You sound like many of the people I have to endure as "colleagues" from uni..."I know everything, and should be the boss." Admittedly, they ARE good at picking their nose.

Dear DD,

I'm not interested in any mud-slinging
contest and it sounds as though you're
getting hot under the collar.

There is a nationally agreed minimum standard
for nursing and midwifery in Australia.
In some instances relevant experience and/or
on the job training may be required in addition
to the formal qualifications. I'm sure that
award wages and levels are assigned depending
on experience and qualifications as they are
in other professions.

Lets go back to the topic of this discussion.
If you want to continue arguing about nursing
not being a profession may I politely suggest
you start your own discusson on the topic.
I'm sure you'll get plenty of people who would
be interested in the topic. And in hearing your
opinion.

Cheers.

Foxy,

My best memory of Nifty Nev was as "Call me Marmaduke". Wran gave himself the name "Marmaduke", how it came about was one of the Liberal rabble in the State Parliament of NSW, better known as the 'Bear Pit' stood up and claimed, trying to label Wran with a corruption tag, that it had been said by some corrupt criminal in relation to shady money "Neville wants it". Wran in reply to this slur stood in parliament and said that "Neville" was a very common name and how did this Liberal dog known that the criminal was referring to him! " Now if my name was "Marmaduke" then everybody would know that the criminal was referring to me." So from then on Wran was often referred to as Marmaduke.
Neville Wran was not the best Premier New South Wales produced, that title easily goes to "The Big Fella" Jack Lang but Wran was up there with the best of them. RIP Nifty.

Dear Paul,

Thank You for that.

Marmaduke sounds so apt.

No politician is perfect.

However this man had style, elegance, and
intelligence.

"Eternal rest grant to them, O Lord
And let perpetual light shine on them
May they rest in peace.
Amen."

Foxy, actually it's AHPRA that nurses register with, firstly. Secondly, for someone obviously not in the industry you sure think you know something about it, when clearly, you don't know a thing. But you want to argue with someone like me, and then finish with, "start a thread about it" when its been pointed out to you how little you know, by your own enquiry. Pathetic. You're too spineless to even acknowledge your mistakes...why am I not surprised?

Adieu.

Dear DD,

I'm glad that you've had the opportunity
to apparently vent your spleen. However, you're
trying to justify your aggressive behaviour
by blaming me when all I'm doing is expressing
my opinion. You're the one who seems to have
a strong need to be right and are attacking me
because I'm simpply not agreeing with your
take on the nursing profession. I see it as a
profession - you don't.
Why can't we just agree to disagree on this.
Why make it personal. That smacks of some sort of
insecurity on your part and you can't blame me for that.

Cheers.

a strong need to be right and are attacking me because I'm simpply not agreeing ...
Foxy,
With all due respect it is THE most importang thing to be right & dispute what is not in accordance with right.
You're accusing DD for attacking you because you don't agree with him. Wrong, he's trying to drum it into you that your failing to see reality, sense etc is wrong. That's totally different to saying he is attacking you because you don't agree.
If you disagree then shouldn't you simply "prove" just him wrong instead of a pointless, multiple not actually protrucing any evidence that he is wrong tirade ?
I am fully accepting that you're a person who cares but saying good is simply not good enough going by the old adage that bad things happen when good people do nothing. If you really believe something wrong you should produce another view/proposal instead of links which do nothing except prolonging a debate & making it a meaningless personal battle of "I simply have to be right". I was one of the most vehemment supporters for the need of ridding us of the ALP but does in no way mean I now accept anything that Abbott & Co throw my way. I think you should do similar & you'd be surprised how much we could help. We need proposals & ideas because accusations are merely holding us back for no other reason than tearing at scabs which only results in recurring pain & no healing..

Dear Individual,

You need to go back and re-read my posts to DD,
and his to me.

He gave me his recollections of Neville Wran.
I Thanked him for them and for being so open and
honest. I then gave him my recollections which
differed from his, including a link from the
Sydney Morning Herald. He again made statements
without providing any proof. But they were his
recollections. I accepted them. I gave another
link from New Matilda. This was unacceptable to
DD. He did not like the author - Jenny Haines.
He said he would "spit on her grave."

We then got into differing opinions on nursing as a
profession. DD compared it to garbage collectors.
Yet Gallup polls and survey showed that nursing was
one of the most respected professions in this
country and overseas. DD told me that my "comprehension
skills left a lot to be desired." That I was big on
misinformation and so on. I stopped reading the
insults - and did not feel like responding at first.

Then he told me that I reminded him of colleagues at
uni who were good at "picking their noses," et cetera.

I finally told him that I wasn't interested in mud-slinging
contests and I politely suggested that he was getting
hot under the collar - that perhaps he could start his own
discussion of nursing as a profession if he felt so strongly
about it. I wanted to get back to the subject of Neville
Wran - the topic of this thread. DD called me "pathetic"
and "spineless."

I rest my case.

Foxy, you are still rife with misinformation and emotional claptrap. I DID NOT compare nursing with garbos, I compared the use of the term "professional" with the loose dictionary definition of "deriving an income" with garbos. You have a high propensity to cherry-pick information that you emotionally respond to, rather than sitting back and absorbing the information in its intended context, intellectually.

Have you researched the criteria required to call an industry a "profession"? I would bet not. Your example of Gallup misusing the term is your sole example. Did you reply to my question of what you call someone that studies art for 3 years? Of course not, as it made my point. A mechanic or panel beater goes through a 3-4 year apprenticeship, do you call mechanics professionals? Well, in the dictionary definition, they are. But in the context of professional lawyers, doctors et al, they are not. The studying of a topic is NOT what defines a "profession". Period. Yet you continuously insist upon the misuse of the term with no research. Yet you wonder why I start to get irritated at your disappointing choice to remain ignorant. Go figure.

BTW, I said "I WOULDN'T spit on her grave"...try and get things right...oh that's right, you don't care about what's correct.

Dear DD,

It seems that you're still unable to resist
making derogatory statements.

Ah well, whatever floats your boat.

Have a nice day.

cont'd ...

Talking about accuracy -

the following link may be of interest:

http://anmf.org.au/pages/nursing-and-midwifery-registration-and-accreditation

There's also more information available on the web.

"Deinstitutionalization" did have social impact; many of the former inmates of mental institutions rode the Sydney suburban train network all day long, just for something to do with their enforced freedom.
The police also got more work as some of the former patients got really bored and masturbated while on the trains.
Elderly ladies, at the time, rarely saw the funny side of such things.

And you're still unable to do any independent research, acknowledge mistakes or valid points. You just drone like a propaganda machine, believing that if something is said often enough and loud enough, that it is so. Nurses were never called "professionals" prior to going to university. They were sold that concept by the government's propaganda to make the idea sound attractive, while the motive to do so was to reduce their costs. Under hospital-based training, nurses were paid to work in the wards and to go to lectures, whereas now, they pay to go to university. That's a huge reversal of cost, changing it to revenue. Is the curriculum any different at university than it was in hospitals? Yes, there's less on-the-job training, but the basic lectures are the same for general nurses, but 1790 hours less for mental health, but you are awarded a diploma or degree instead of a certificate.

So your link, as usual, is meaningless. Your desire to talk as an expert on something you know nothing about, is as arrogant as it is ignorant. That's no insult, but fact. An intelligent approach, would be to pose questions, do some meaningful research and acknowledge points and mistakes. Your choice to do NONE of these things but to proffer unfounded opinions ad infinitum is the basis for my uncomplimentary comments. Learn how to verify facts, acknowledge points and errors, and stop droning your misinformation like a broken record, and you'll find my discourse far more palatable.

Is Mise, good points. Many were also housed in the prison system instead of the hospitals that they were evicted from, or as I mentioned, died from suicide or misadventure. It was a heartless, crass and cynical political maneuver by Wran to do what he did.

Cheers.

@Individual...thanks for your support and for reading what I had to say in its intended context. You "got" what I was saying.

Cheers.

Dear DD,

I'm beginning to suspect that you probably don't
have a tertiary qualification. That would explain
a great deal.

In any case I stopped reading your previous post after
you stated to me - "You just drone like a propaganda
machine ..."

You need to be careful.
You don't want to come across as a "grunter," with
a bad attitude.

Dear Is Mise,

I remember when the former Liberal Premier in Victoria
Jeff Kennett closed all the mental institutions and
the tragic effect this had on people and families.

As for masturbating on trains?

I grew up in Sydney and recall quite clearly the number
of people who exposed themselves and groped
others. These people frequented - trains, buses, outside
high schools, libraries. They seemed to be a part
and parcel of Sydney society. The police did very little
about them. So I don't think you can blame Neville
Wran for all of them.

Here's a great link given by The Australian on Mr Wran:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/neville-wran-former-nsw-premier-and-labor-hero-dies-at-87/story-e6frgczx-1226890650993

For me this discussion has now well and truly
run its course. I would like to Thank everyone
who contributed and
I look forward
to sharing more opinions with you on other discussions.

Stay well.

Foxy,
Your standard exit tactic, leave the thread without actually offering a suggestion for a solution to problems such as wasting big taxpayer dollars on some wealthy pensioner's funeral.
Do you realise that the cost of a State funeral could probably keep a dozen families for a whole year ?
Which do you think would do more good ? I'd rather see some families getting a fair deal than a bunch of useless bureaucrats getting hundreds of dollars a day travel allowance to attend the funeral of someone who has already cost us a too much whilst still alive.
Please don't run away again before you reply to this one.

Indi

While we are at it, we could boot that useless loafer presently occupying Kirribilli House out, and move in that dozen needy families.
From such a fantastic location they could sit in those million dollar deck chairs and get a great view of the State Funeral for Nifty Nev at the same time.

Paul1405,
Yep, from the master of me,me,me. If you were smarter you'd have noticed that I did say that it is ok by me to fork out taxpayers dollars for an incumbent leader. Your incomprehensible senselessness now suggests to waste even more money for such pointless frivolity.

DD,
I noted that you mentioned a mental hospital in Goulburn, NSW.

It was called Kenmore Hospital and, as I recall, the closure was devastating for both staff and patients. Some patients ended up in jail and others were taken advantage of financially and sexually.

Prior to the Wran government there was a 'decentralisation scheme' whereby government departments and companies were encouraged to relocate from Sydney to country centres. Wran scrapped that and again as I recall, Goulburn lost about 5000 government jobs, which amounted to about 20,000 leaving the town and going to Sydney. I expect other large country towns had similar experience.

It seems Labor has these great ideas, but with unintended consequences.

It seems Labor has these great ideas, but with unintended consequences.
Banjo,
How can one aptly describe the ALP without using words like incompetent or unitended stupidity ?
Anyhow, I'm still waiting for Foxy to tell us that the funding for the funeral of Neville Wran should take priority over struggling families courtesy of the ALP.

Thanks Indi,

How can one aptly describe the ALP without using words like incompetent or unitended stupidity.

Here in NSW; How can one aptly describe the Liberal Party without using works like, criminal or corrupt.

Not much of a choice there, Unless of course you vote GREEN. Then you can use words like honesty and integrity.

Dear Indy,

Now I understand why your words like"Moron,"
or "stupid" are so apt for some people!
I have already answered your question concerning
Mr Wran's funeral earlier in this discussion.
It was a decision made by the new Liberal Premier
of NSW. If you have any objections - feel free to
contact and voice them to him. I had nothing to do
with that decision - and I'm sure that your objections
will be given the attention that they deserve.

As for how that money should be spent instead of and on
whom - maybe while you're at it - you can consider
advising the PM and Mr Hockey - on who should be
targeted in the next budget - instead of the pensioners
and the vulnerable in our society. Cuts that will be
forthcoming and affecting the poor will be massive.
While the rich will be getting more benefits. And politicians
will continue to get salary increases and their perks.
And you can't continue to blame Labor forever.

Cheers.