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The Forum > General Discussion > Bushrangers, democracy and economics

Bushrangers, democracy and economics

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Dear Yutusu,

The Iranians would be even more excited to get their democracy back, you remember, the one they had before the CIA ripped it away.

As to game theory Wired.com did a great piece titled CUTTHROAT CAPITALISM - An Economic Analysis of the Somali Pirate Business Model. To illustrate their point they created a game based on the economic drivers in their business model. It does take a bit of a time investment but it is very revealing and shows why they continue to engage in it.
http://www.wired.com/special_multimedia/2009/cutthroatCapitalismTheGame

Dear spindoc,

I have no problem applying it to which ever group you choose. Do you have a view on why it works as it does?

Dear Hasbeen,

In to give the thread the good ol' Hasbeen touch. I bow to the master of course but I hope you don't mind if I give it a go?

Start;

You call yourself an Australian? Your sir are nothing of the sort! You want to see the wealth of this nation shipped overseas with very little of the benefits going to ordinary hard working Aussies. Most of the companies digging up that wealth are not Australian so you want to see money that should be going to working folk shipped out and into the pockets of wealth foreign shareholders. To show just how low and despicable you are you want educational assistance to the kids of Aussies who died serving this country to be stripped from them and deposited into those same gaping pockets. Shame! If I had my way you would be run out of here. We don't need traitorous sorts like you!

Finish.

How did I go? Certainly not up to your rhetorical heights but I am but a pup.

Just for your information I have worked for myself for most of my working life and probably have less than $1000 in super. The benefits from the mining tax was not going to end up in my pockets but I was happy to champion for those it was going to assist. That is what being an Australian should be about.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 11:17:09 AM
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‘morning OUG,

I think your progressiveness is not only deeply entrenched, it is also becoming progressive. You need to relax, take a Bex Powder and find something to do that does not trigger your obtuse “wackiness”.

In attempting to dominate threads with shouting, flooding us with links, multiple similar posts, diversions, the use of “mystic” symbols and incomprehensible word imagery, you are running the risk of a serious neural malfunction.

SteeleRedux’s puzzle is of course intended to be an ideological barb rather than a riddle. Just look at the conversation between fellow travelers and useful idiots, all pumping each other up. How desperate do you have to be to find Unicorns nowadays?

The electorates are rapidly distancing themselves from progressive politics, assisted by foul mouthed protestors, some journalists, the ABC, Fairfax, The Guardian, the Conversation, many academics and social engineers. Some, like SteeleRedux for instance, are trying desperately to find new ways to launch their “narrative theories”.

Eventually they will be found out and their contributions forgotten. In the meantime the incessant squawking, like fingernails down a blackboard, will continue to grate however, the upside is that this process “bouncing dead cats” will provide many hours of mirth
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 11:48:24 AM
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Dear Yutusu,

Just a follow on point. I'm not sure you are familiar with Joe Bageant's writings but in his book he tries to explain how the poor, uneducated, un-unionised, underpaid, uninsured white southerners keep fronting up every four years to vote for that mouthpiece of big business the Republican party. It is obviously against their interest but they do it with fierce determination.

Is it a question of education? Is that why our version of democracy seems so incapable of delivering fair outcomes?

Joe makes this point in an essay titled Revenge of the Mutt People;

“So we will either see that Americans, religious or not, get educated equally so they won’t be suckered by political and religious hucksters. If not, then we must accept that uneducated people interpret politics in an uninformed and emotional manner, and accept the consequences. America can no longer withstand the political naiveté of this ignored white class. Middle class American liberals cannot have it both ways. It has come down to the simplest and most profound element of democracy: Fairness. Someday middle class American liberals will have to cop to fraternity and justice and the fact that we are our brother’s keeper, whether we like it or not. They’re going to have to sit down and actually speak to these people they consider ugly, overweight, ill educated and in poor taste. At some point down the road all the Montessori schools and Ivy League degrees in the world are not going to save your children and grandchildren from what our intellectual peasantry, whether born of neglect or purposefully maintained, is capable of supporting politically. We’ve all seen the gritty black and white newsreels from the 1930s.”

Or is the structure broken in some other way?
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 12:04:11 PM
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Dear SteeleRedux,

Thanks for the game, I had a look, bookmarked it and may play it when I have time!

My knowledge of America is very limited and I'm not interested in what goes in that country, nor am I familiar with either Joe Bageant or with newsreels from the 1930s. My uninformed and wild guess is that, unlike the bushrangers whose priorities we know very well, their poor are voting based on who offers them respect rather than on how many coins they end up with or how many others they manage to kill.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 12:53:34 PM
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yea/thanks spindoc..here is content/rather than link

[THE PIRATE RULES/LINK]..the worst THING IS VISITING THE DAMM LINK..ENABLES THEM TO INSERT THAT INTO MY FILE

ANYHOW/I IMAGINE..WE GIVE REAL PIRITES IDEAS..EVEN PLAYING THE DUMB GAme

The negotiation:
Your goal is to increase your profit..with tactics..[spin//implied rarity/volatility..OR SHORTAGE]..that keep the ransom[price]..artificially high..and lead to a quick resolution.

How to play:

*..Demand your ransom:[SET/YA-PRICE]..Remember the largest ransom ever paid was $3 million for the Sirius Star.[WHICH Is pennies/to THE 4 TRIllion dollar bailout.then the quadrillion dollar BAIL-IN]..

Bid high,..but be prepared for disappointment.
*..Handle hostages:..You can feed,..threaten,..beat..MAKE SICK/POISEN/THREATEN/enlist/exploit..or kill hostages.[WORKERS/USEFUL IDIOTS..SEREVANTS SLAVES OR lessors

Watch the..Hostage Health/wealth..INDEXES..meter carefully...Very few hostages..are Never killed,..so be prepared for..harsh action if you go..that far.

*..Call negotiator:[gets most/the kickback/washes the source.from THE RECIPIENT/RECEIVING BUT A TOKEN/RELATIVELY Speaking../negotiator is/the brains/MEANS/WAY....You can be cordial,..erratic..or aggressive..with your negotiator.

If you're too aggressive,.the naval forces..[PRIVATE/POLICE]..may arrive...If you're too soft,..your pirate crew..may lose confidence in you..and jump ship...directly/with..'negotiator'..

Feel like the negotiations..are going nowhere?..Then walk out.
*..Negotiate:Once you've set your demand,..[its case/closed]..and decided..how to handle..your hostages/SUICIDE[SEE THE BANKERS]..and conduct your negotiation,..clicHE Negotiate.[LOL]

Pay attention..to advice from your..ENRON-SION-elders!
They'll offer..helpful tips..[FOR/KICK-BACK]..throughout the negotiations.[see http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=16158&page=0

*..SettlMENT
Ready to accept the negotiator's counter-offer?..Click Settle...it wont/do anything..but give-em..a laugh...THEN/THEY SAY JUMP.

Failure?
Evaluate your negotiation tactics..and try again.
You'll go bankrupt..[thats rule..1/you cant take YA CHIPS OFF THE TABLE..if you lose too many times, and then it's Game Over. Success? Distribute your earnings to your crew,..TO THE WRONG PEOPLE//welcome your new pirate crew member..and keep delaying!
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6293&page=0
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6282&page=0
Posted by one under god, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 1:54:55 PM
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‘morning SteeleRedux,

Thank you for your question.

<< Dear spindoc, I have no problem applying it to which ever group you choose. Do you have a view on why it works as it does? >>

You didn’t nominate “what” when you asked why “it” works? Do you mean the puzzle, what this says about democracy in a capitalistic society, or the example of substituting trade union officials?

On indulgence I’ll take all three.

The puzzle is simply a vehicle for introducing, yet again, the progressive ideology vs. democracy and capitalism. You can have ownership of both the vehicle and the ideology, all yours, I don’t buy into self centric justification.

In relation to the metaphor, that of “bushrangers vs. union leaders” The difference is stark. You stress that honor (or lack thereof) among thieves is the basis for re-distribution of wealth. I have highlighted that that our modern society is perfectly capable of dealing with thieves. No ideology required, just the law of the land. (Check out the recent Court Rulings)

Your position is untenable because it relies on your ideology to solve the problem, mine does not. All we need is democracy, the will of the people and the legal institutions we have created to deal with fraudsters.

As always, you seek to interpret your position based upon your value/moral proposition. If you could leave that alone for the purpose of debate you may make some progress. If you cannot, you are a self declared bigot and a creator of the myth that the maintenance of your perspective is that contrary opinion is of no value, neither is there any value in those who express it.

Crooks are crooks. It’s not my crooks in the limelight, its yours. Get over it and your futile Unicorn hunt, it is no longer sustainable. Unless of course you wish to persist in the pursuit of that which is contrary to self interest. On the other hand that’s where you always head
Posted by spindoc, Wednesday, 26 March 2014 2:15:57 PM
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