Last week I learnt from one of the lads I coach that he is attending a Catholic university. When I asked why he wasn't attending the local university he said he didn't quite get the marks to do the same course. Then he related that he was able to get a bump to his ATAR score of 5 marks because he had attended a Catholic Secondary school.

While I am all for those attending lower socio-economic schools, or under-represented schools (not many graduates going to university), and even those attending rural schools, being offered some form of discount/help with their ATAR mark, this one caught me by surprise.

The Catholic secondary school he attended is one of the top four private schools in my area. It would be hard to make a case for any disadvantage. His own interpretation is the over riding factor centred on the fact it is a Catholic campus and therefore he was eligible for a discount on his entry score.

Catholic universities proudly proclaim they have an open admissions policy, as they should because they secure billions of tax payers dollars to educate Australians.

I have no problem with them having certain rules of behaviour that might reflect their faith, nor of offering some courses that are religious in nature, what I do object to though is giving preferential treatment to one group over the rest based purely on religion. It certainly offends my sense of a fair go, the desirability of fair access for all, and the need to hold religion at arms length when dealing with taxpayer's funds.

I'm interested to hear what others think.

Relax, SteeleRedux. It's not a religion thing.

Unless you deem sport to be a religious activity.

"The information provided in your Elite Athletes and Artistic Performers Entry Scheme application will be considered and may result in a positive ATAR aggregate adjustment of either 4 or 6 points based upon the assessed impact of the elite activity."

http://futurestudents.unimelb.edu.au/admissions/high_achievers_programs/elite-athletes-and-artistic-performers

There are other angles too, I understand.

Dear Pericles,

With respect the matter I am referring to is of course a religious thing.

Perhaps I need to take the time to state my concerns more simply.

There may well many ways ATAR scores are inflated for various reasons, some of which both of us have furnished. Yet most if not all of them can be seen in the light of increasing fairness into the system.

My contention is that awarding inflated ATAR scores due to religious affiliation for entry into an institution that sources the bulk of its funding from the tax payer does not pass that fairness test.

Further it should be an anathema those who espouse the ideal that religion and the state should be held at arms length. Hopefully this is an Australian ethic and one that is held by the majority of us.

After what the cathodes have done you have got to be joking. School is school no matter what capacity you are in.
The whole university thing is a farce, it's jobs for the learned/, which would have no hope anywhere else.
No subject is job specific, and no information is common knowledge.
Can you explain an Arts degree.

Dear SteeleRedux,

The Catholic Universities are in the same situation
as regional/rural universities that don't have
enough students to fill places so they make certain allowances
for city/high school graduates by granting them easier
entry. Catholic Universities have the same problem and
of course their main source of entrance would logically
come from Catholic Schools. Thus the additional points
for allowing religious education.

We know of students being given extra points for having
studied foreign languages other than those that are
usually taught at high schools, for example, languages
like - Hungarian, and similar non-curriculum languages.
That students study at week-end schools.

"My contention is that awarding inflated ATAR scores due to religious affiliation for entry into an institution that sources the bulk of its funding from the tax payer does not pass that fairness test."

This would hold true if the bulk of the students were so recruited but this case would be covered by the other source of funding.

Well yes, I realized that SteeleRedux.

>>With respect the matter I am referring to is of course a religious thing.<<

I was simply pointing out that the bumping-up of ATAR scores happens in many other guises, and wondering why, among the rich pickings available, you chose to focus on Catholics.

One of the sources of enhanced ATAR scores, as I understand it, is the "levelling-up" that applies to the pupils of some schools - notably, the very expensive ones - who mark classwork (or whatever non-exam work is called) more aggressively. Their justification is that they have to be tougher on their students because their overall standard of work is so high. So when it comes to totting up the scores, the overall exam scores of that high-flying cohort (which are not subjective) are measured against that of the other schools, and their classwork scores tweaked accordingly.

I believe this goes under the term "scaling".

It might just be the case that your lad's school was one of these. Oh, look...

>>The Catholic secondary school he attended is one of the top four private schools in my area. It would be hard to make a case for any disadvantage.<<

Could it not be that the school was subject to scaling, and the upward inflection of ATAR scores be based upon this, as opposed to any religious bias?

Dear Foxy,

You wrote;

“The Catholic Universities are in the same situation
as regional/rural universities that don't have
enough students to fill places so they make certain allowances
for city/high school graduates by granting them easier
entry.”

Sure. Add that to the fact that universities in areas like Warnambool and Ballarat are huge employers then the drive to gain students by offering entrance to those with lower ATAR scores is understandable.

But you need to separate this from your next contention;

“Catholic Universities have the same problem and
of course their main source of entrance would logically
come from Catholic Schools.”

This does not represent the reality I have experienced. Of my recently graduated child's friendship group many are opting for a Catholic university in a rural area purely because the lower socio-economic school they attended impacted on results and this is the only path to a university education available to them. It would be interesting to see what the ratio of Catholic/non-Catholic students would be without the assistance given to Catholic secondary students, but I venture it would be little different from the standard.

You also wrote;

“We know of students being given extra points for having
studied foreign languages other than those that are
usually taught at high schools, for example, languages
like - Hungarian, and similar non-curriculum languages.”

Again I have no issue with this as perhaps they feel it shows aptitude and initiative. This is not a factor where religious studies are a compulsory part of the secondary curriculum. So when you say “Thus the additional points for allowing religious education.” is this a valid reason for giving a blanket ATAR boost when the vast majority of courses on offer have nothing to do with religion whatsoever.

Dear Is Mise,

Simply addressed. The vast bulk of the students are taking fully supported (funded by the taxpayer) places as oppose to those offered to overseas students or the small percentage that are taken by full fee paying Australian students.

It could be a 'religious' thing for partners in Christ (a campus can also be a corpus), Pericles... one of these possibly?

"Schools Relationship Bonus*
This scheme enables Year 12 students from partnership schools to receive five bonus points. Partnership schools include those that have a strong relationship and history with ACU, or that are in close proximity to the relevant campus.
You do not have to apply for these bonus points on a separate application as they are automatically applied through the relevant TAC .
*This scheme is subject to final approval for 2014.

Regional and Disadvantaged Schools
If you live in a relevant regional area and/or attend a school that has been identified by a relevant State/Territory government as disadvantaged, you may be awarded up to five bonus points under this scheme.
You do not have to apply for these bonus points on a separate application as they are automatically calculated and applied through the relevant TAC"

http://www.acu.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/417460/UGCG_2014.pdf

But given, "The Catholic secondary school he attended is one of the top four private schools in my area." it is probably the first mentioned.

certainly believing the gw religion seems a pre requisite for a job with the ABC. Not only that but it helps if you are a self righteous scoffer.

btw it was soo refreshing on Q & A to see the uni professor from somewhere in Brisbane making a fool of the warmist and twisters of truth. No doubt he won't be invited back to quickly.

I am not a Catholic, but here is the link to ACU,

http://www.acu.edu.au/study_at_acu/alternate_entry/accessacu

It is all public and transparent. The problem is?

Possibly, Wm Trevor, but not necessarily.

>>It could be a 'religious' thing for partners in Christ (a campus can also be a corpus), Pericles... one of these possibly? "Schools Relationship Bonus* This scheme enables Year 12 students from partnership schools to receive five bonus points.<<

http://www.acu.edu.au/study_at_acu/alternate_entry/accessacu

I had a quick spin through the Relationship Bonus selection panel - you enter the name of a school, and it tells you straight away that you get five bonus points. Well, all the schools that I could think of came up with that number, but maybe that's because I only know the names of the elite ones...

Be that as it may, the important thing was that none of the names I entered were Catholic schools. I know for a fact that at least one of the schools that was given the five extra points sent a number of Muslims to Uni last year, with their five extra points tucked into their pockets.

Religious bias? I don't think so.

Just to put the lid on this religious bias thing once and for all, here is the same scheme for a non-Catholic University.

http://sydney.edu.au/future-students/domestic/undergraduate/access-sydney/flexible-entry.shtml?utm_source=future-students&utm_medium=tile&utm_campaign=access-sydney

"The Flexible Entry Scheme means that you may still receive an offer for a course if you achieve an ATAR that falls up to 5 points below the published ATAR."

So it's goodnight from him...

"University access determined by religion? A bad precedent for Australia."

And it's goodnight from me.

[No correspondence will be entered into regarding that sign-off]

There is/was Headmaster's Recommendation which my youngest daughter got to get her into UNE some years ago, she attended a Public School.

Dear WmTrevor and OTB,

Thank you for the links.

I thought I would look at a regional Catholic university and so chose Ballarat.

http://www.acu.edu.au/study_at_acu/alternate_entry/accessacu/ballarat_relationships

Without doing exhaustive research I make it 39 religious/private schools to 14 state schools are part of the ANU Ballarat relationship group.

I would say that an over 3:1 ratio is a religious bias, given independent and Catholic school students make up approximately a third of the student population of Victoria.

SteeleRedux,

There may be an innocent explanation.

However even if true the system is to an extent self-correcting. Private companies are quick to respond to any unevenness in the quality of graduates.

I abhor favouritism.

We should be shocked that universities are funded by our tax money.

The rest of the details are peanuts!

SteeleRedux,
What are you coaching the boy for? Is it sport, music or academic subjects? Do you not think if it is academic that he has matured and now wants to achieve? A sign of a good student.

"Just to put the lid on this religious bias thing once and for all..."

So for a 'relationship bonus' the student walks into the admissions centre and says to the assistant "I received your offer for the Flexible Entry Scheme..."

And catholics are okay with this?

(As Eric Morecambe might have said, "Wahey!")

The more I look at this the more it stinks.

I think we are essentially a fair lot so why does this get a pass?

If I were a parent with a child who was competing with another to access a particular university place these I probably would be prepared to wear the following;

- The other child received a boost to their ATAR because they attended a notably poorer school without the facilities and teacher quality afforded my child.

- The other child received a boost to their ATAR because they attended a rural school since that sector produces markedly poorer ATAR outcomes.

- The other child received a boost to their ATAR because they had taken on the extra burden or either learning a new language.

This one I would have a harder time swallowing but I can appreciate the rationale;

- The other child received a boost to their ATAR because training in a sport to an elite level thus eroding available study hours.

What I wouldn't wear is that the only difference between the other child and mine is the fact that they are Catholic. What are we becoming if this is an accepted measure?

Not sure that flexibility is necessarily the most desirable characteristic in this instance, Wm Trevor.

>>So for a 'relationship bonus' the student walks into the admissions centre and says to the assistant "I received your offer for the Flexible Entry Scheme..." And catholics are okay with this? (As Eric Morecambe might have said, "Wahey!")<<

I see you're still banging the drum, SteeleRedux.

>>What I wouldn't wear is that the only difference between the other child and mine is the fact that they are Catholic. What are we becoming if this is an accepted measure?<<

It isn't, as has been amply demonstrated right here on this thread, with multiple examples including your own attempt:

>>I thought I would look at a regional Catholic university and so chose Ballarat... Without doing exhaustive research I make it 39 religious/private schools to 14 state schools are part of the ANU Ballarat relationship group... I would say that an over 3:1 ratio is a religious bias<<

Please don't try to get a job as a statistician. It was the "without exhaustive research" that blows your conclusion out of the water, even allowing for the (apparent) random nature of your target selection.

Relax. We are far less concerned about religious bias than ever before in Australia's history. Confecting outrage that a professedly Catholic institution should appear to look kindly upon Catholics does no more than raise a tiny eyebrow in the grand scheme of things.

And as for your higher-education-as-charity scheme, try for one moment to see it from the point of view of the university, and those who made it there on educational merit.

SR,

Before you get your knickers in a knot.

Private universities and schools are subsidised far less than public universities and schools. These private institutions have the right of association and are given the leeway to encourage certain students, as long as others are not excluded. Catholic universities tend to have strong Catholic theology departments for which I would guess there are few non catholic applicants.

A 5 ATAR bonus is not huge, and is similar to that given rural students etc in public universities.

Dear Pericles,

Yes I am still banging that drum. My apologies if it has disturbed you but I had taken you at your word that you had signed off and nothing that we could write here would induce you to return;

“[No correspondence will be entered into regarding that sign-off]”

Another misunderstanding it would seem.

If you have any issue with my statistics you are more than welcome to furnish your own or show me where mine are wanting.

Let me frame this another way. If this were a university run by Chinese/Australians and they had decided that they would only accept one Caucasian for every three Asiatic students then there would rightly be an outcry.

We have a healthy ethic in this country of not wearing discrimination based on race, colour, or creed. It rightly offends us when we see it. My example is concerns race, the Catholic University's discrimination concerns creed.

Dear Shadow Minister,

While that might be true of funding at a high school level it is not at the university level. ACU gets the bulk of its funding from government funding of the places it offers and from student fees. I do not accept its level of funding is less than other non-Catholic universities and would need to see figures supporting your contention to alter that view.

Further I have no issue with a Catholic University giving an ATAR boost to a student wishing to do a Catholic Theological degree if that student had a solid high school grounding in Catholic religious teaching. But that would be the case in so few the places on offer. In fact ACU is in the top 4 universities whose students move to other institutions to complete their courses. Many chose it as an alternative pathway to get into institutions for which their ATAR was not high enough to grant them first preference.

You clearly missed the reference, SteeleRedux.

>>...I had taken you at your word that you had signed off and nothing that we could write here would induce you to return; “[No correspondence will be entered into regarding that sign-off]”<<

But you can be forgiven for missing the re-casting of the sign-off of the Two Ronnies, "It's goodnight from me... and it's goodnight from him". Quite possibly, you are far too young to remember them.

>>If you have any issue with my statistics you are more than welcome to furnish your own or show me where mine are wanting.<<

I tried to do exactly that.

>>I thought I would look at a regional Catholic university and so chose Ballarat... Without doing exhaustive research I make it 39 religious/private schools to 14 state schools are part of the ANU Ballarat relationship group... I would say that an over 3:1 ratio is a religious bias<<

Statistically, that's "wanting" in anybody's language.

>>Let me frame this another way. If this were a university run by Chinese/Australians and they had decided that they would only accept one Caucasian for every three Asiatic students then there would rightly be an outcry.<<

And that's a pretty ridiculous comparison. Even you must acknowledge that, surely.

Dear Pericles,

My 'over' instead of just under was a mistake but one that hardly counters the figures nor the argument that the overwhelming majority of the schools favoured by ACU largesse are religious in nature.

My Chinese-australian example was not meant to be a direct comparison but an intentional extreme to make a point. That being said it is not unheard of;

“In 1973, the Malaysian government implemented an affirmative action program, setting a quota of 55% of university places for Malay and the remaining 45% for Chinese and Indian students. The university quota system created considerable unhappiness among the Chinese and Indians. In 2002, it was found that Malay students constituted 69% of state university places. This was interpreted by the then Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad to mean that fewer Chinese and Indians were applying for these places.
In 2004, 128 non-Malay students who obtained perfect 5As in STPM were denied their first choice of course which was medicine. All students managed to successfully gain offers to private institutions but some did not pursue a medical education due to lack of funds and financial support.”

The favouritism endowed by ACU is cloaked in a 'school relationships' program that includes non-Catholic schools, though to their credit the average SES ranking of the students attending is not significantly higher than average, it is still an unfair system of allocating places that cost the tax payers tens of thousands of dollars.

Anyway you need to stop calling me Shirley.

SR,

The Catholic university already has one of the lowest ATAR requirements, and there is a world of difference between allotting a few extra ATAR points and having a quota system. Perhaps you would like to throw in the Nazi extermination system next?

Dear Shadow Minister,

I am talking about the principle which is that we shouldn't condone discrimination in this country based on a person's race, colour, or creed.

I don't think ANU are particularly egregious in their conduct but ultimately there will be kids who miss out on a place at a university, one that you and I fund with our taxes, not because of merit, or an adjustment designed to enhance equity, but because they were not part of a schools relationship program which overwhelmingly favours religious schools.

That is wrong.

SR,

The ACU gives the ATAR to some one from a school run by the same body. As the schools are required to give access to all faiths, the person getting the extra ATAR may very well not be catholic or even christian. Thus the argument of discrimination based on faith is groundless.

The system fell apart when Whitlem decided to let anyone go to university that had any sort of disadvantage. The socialist universities blossomed like yeast riding in the bakery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HECS#HECS
The HECS money flowed and any idiot could get into the Education stream and get some sort of a degree that would allow them to attack the hand that fed them.
The need to have a brain and education standards based on ability through competitive examination was replace by social need and social disadvantage.
Catch 22