Way back around the turn of the century there were a number of huge protests against globalisation in Seattle, Genoa, Melbourne and a few other places.

What those protesters were warning about has now come to pass.
The evisceration of western manufacturing, supercharged tax evasion by big business, export of pollution to and exploitation of impoverished workers in developing countries, unsafe imports, increasing unemployment and now they say our wages are too high and we should lower them to "compete".

The closure of the car industry like the textile and steel industries before them and the soon to come loss of food manufacturing are a direct result of globalisation as it has been implemented by the WTO since 2000.

In what way has globalisation helped Australia?

Hi mikk,

An interesting start but you seem to have lost context and relevance along the way. I’m not sure what your definition of “globalization” is?

Are you referring to political, social or economic globalization?

Economic and trade globalization seems to be working fine for all except the EU.

Nominal GDP growth for the South America’s, 3.1%, USA 4.1%, India, in spite of 50% loss in 2013, 5.1%, China flattening but still at 8%+ and Japan after a decade of debt and deficit, 1.5%.

All these nations trade increasingly with each other, more importantly they all trade with the next tier down, the third world nations. Free Trade Agreements are being signed almost daily (Australia, Indonesia, Japan, China and India).

The EU block has largely shut itself out of these new “globalised” markets. Of course the EU has its own FTA however, what is the value of imposing an FTA on yourself?

The EU has stuffed up very badly with political, economic and trade globalization. In setting up their model for de-carbonization as per the UN, they got left holding the baby because that “other” great globalization initiative called Kyoto went poof! Now they are lumbered with draconian emissions and renewable targets that are choking their individual and collective economies.

The rest of the world has largely shaken off the CO2 disease and is rebuilding based on fossil fuels and energy security.

As for what has globalization done for Australia? Well, all those lovely new markets are all ours.

Mikk thanks for an interesting thread.
It focuses on both the biggest concern some have and the reality we face.
Even if a country wants to leave the system can it and still survive?
If that country is Australia my best bet is we just can not leave it now.
Free trade/Globalization has us in its grip we know victims are made as a result of it, but I think more winners than victims.
And by the way I think now, after such as the European common market, it is our only path.
SPC is a victim it once did well in trade with those in that community, we saw New Zealand look after its farmers but did not do that for our own.
I will draw criticism, but firmly think forces we are not yet aware of within the UN and too the power and privileged are pushing us ever near a one world one people one trade system.
While it may take a century it in my view will come.
Even I will think it is for the long term better.
But in truth think a world government is a threat not a promise.

Foxy/Paul thanks for your great hearts and wishes.
I will never change Paul I sit here, rather than still having the privilege to serve union members because my boss, half my age and half as intent on serving them wanted me to bend to his will.
No Chance. he sits in a chair better men should.
I damage the very thing that made me a good union official in the eyes of my members/mates.
If I do not tell it like it is.
I refuse to be blind to any one or thing hurting the union movement.
I took part/started the action to remove one such person we did.
But feel dirty that we lied to the members about why he left pockets full of union funds super ex he under common law should have lost.
If nothing else union heads must concede head lines constantly popping up like those we have seen increasingly damages us all.
Be the first union/ ALP member to put a criminal in the spotlight or know you stab us all.

Sorry PC crash and opened in wrong thread

Globalisation is a failing business plan implemented by Banksters to make ever greater riches. They want nothing more than a global government and global currency.

Those that appose it are the ones that see it as means to be plundered.
Those that support it see their place to extract their share of the plunder. Then there are those that think nothing and just take whatever comes down the shoot. It's the later two that are enabling it to happen.

From what I see at the moment. Those that appose it are slowly educating the apathetic collective.

It should be a good thing, like Australia becoming a republic. But those implementing it are not sincere!

I know it is extremely simplistic but if we want to get back some control over our own economies we must stop the rorting with those tax havens overseas.
Be a citizen of a country & have a business in that country & make your money in that country. Foreign investment is not an investment at all, it's stealing from us & taking somewhere else. No wonder foreign companies can grow so obscenely wealthy if the traitors in our midst are selling us out at every turn. Globalisation is & will very soon prove to be the worst economic stumbling block for this Planet. As soon as India for example has the living standards of the West the West will go into steady decline. Australia will be the leader in decline due to the false security mentality of so many.

Indi, a true transaction tax would put a stop to foriegn owned companies taking untaxed dollars out of our country, as their money would be taxed at each and every transaction, including shifting it from on shore to off shore accounts.

Of cause there would be no company or income tax, so taking their money off shore would have a limited upside for them, as would would indeed become a tax free country of soughts, as all any single person or business would every pay is about two cents in every dollar. Nothing to cheat there amd even if they still wanted to they would have to pay this tax. No escaping it.

As for globalization, we would have to allow our lifestyles to take a huge backward step because we rely on the rest of the world far more than they rely on us.

That's just not going to happen, unless it is forced upon us.

Individual and Rechtub it is much more complicated than the totally different issue of tax.
Consider this, if we left our existing trade agreements would we retain those markets?
It is unlikely at best.
As the world trading system tightens its grip, far more likely than the reverse, could trade barriers be used against us?
We would benefit hugely if true free trade in our farm products existed but a degree of protectionism stalls that.
The issue and its questions is complex and impacts of going it alone not fully understood.

While tax havens have little to do with the subject, international firms avoiding tax has a finger hold on this subject.
Taxation reforms have been put up before here.
Consider if we drafted an Australian tax retaining law on over seas firms.
That would fair or not, see us charged with restraint of trade in international forums.

Belly,
I agree with what you're saying but I must stress that this is under present conditions. The thing is nothing will ever change with these conditions. We must work on changing these conditions so that we can change all other conditions as well.
Of course it's so easy for them to pull the wool over our eyes by saying that's the Law. Well, change the god damned Law, it's not working very well is it ? Star with a flat tax, do away with this criminal negative gearing crap & overseas bank accounts. Australia would be in the best placed position of any country to make a move towards getting away from the system we have now. If China wants our resources we give them a price & they can take it or leave it. Same goes for our bureaucrats. This is what we pay & if it's not enough for you find another job. We must have a referendum on Public funded wages. If we don't then I suppose it'll just be a lot worse when then crunch comes then it would be if we addressed it now.
To own land in Australia you must be Australian. To own land in China you must be Chinese. Where's the problem ? The problem are those Australians who get so money hungry that they'd sell to the Taliban if the got an offer.

But Indi we dohave a flat tax rate for business and it is they who place their funds in off shore accounts to avoid that tax.

As Belly says, tax their profits before they go off shore.

There have been many scams ove the years, ome such being a huge meat exporting company, American owned a that.

They would process here and sell to their off shore company for about one cent profit, just enough to keep the wheels turning. The off shore company would then on sell and claim the real profits, but pay tax OS or not at all. Eithe way we missed out.

The problem we face however is would this scare foreign companies away, because lie it or not, we need foriegn investment because our population is simply too small to develop and inject much needed capital. It's a catch 22.

While I am pro forieng investment, what I am against is froiegners simply buying the keys to something. They should be made develop here and employ our people. Again, a catch 22 situation.

This is why I think we need to reform taxes, because it will tax any transaction in Austrailia and reduce the tax burden on everyday employees giving them much more to spend. The best stimulant you can get.

It's a catch 22.
rehchtub,
it is my belief that this is one of the most successfully indoctrinated fallacies. We knock back genuine & qualified immigration applicants who would be an instant resource to Australia. Instead we let ourselves be dictated into accepting so-called refugees whose only qualification is to spread superstition & a detrimental one at that. Do you realise how difficult it is to obtain even just a visitor's visa to Australia ?
We must stand up to that parasitic outfit that is the UN, tell them to look after the refugees they largely helped to create & let us import creative & useful people who won't be a burden to our over-burdened social security system. Instead of displacing refugees on the other side of the planet we could have great industry in supplying materials & commodities to them. The monies need to spent anyway if we want to call ouselved half civilised, we need to provide assistance in practical terms not simply throing money that we desperately need at some superstitious warlaords whose only ambition is to see us annihilated with the help of our own money. It can be done & mor likely than not will need to be done as we're running out of options. One the options is to change/curb Globalisation. Don't let the greed mongers tell you it's not possible just as a hardened criminal would tell you jail is not the answer. Put on your thinking caps.

I still think tax reform is something we must do.
In fact we should look at reform in most things.
But global trade seems here to stay, Australia has many more gains than losses from our opening our markets.
How do we, and the world trading community handle ever present self interest?
We suffer in some areas of farm production and win in others.
Yet that, highlighting food production may well have to sustain us in any future depression.
Such a thing remains a possibility, I am truly concerned about China, their growth must slow no matter what they wish.
Remember multi national trading firms exist to some extent as a way of avoiding tax.
Not an easy subject but one that confronts us now and long into the future.

Remember multi national trading firms exist to some extent as a way of avoiding tax.
Belly,
That is just so true & it is that we need to find an economic alternative for. There a businesses who have so much gear only for write-off reasons. That is what we need to get rid off, the idle monies, money that should be going round'n round instead of being stale until some greed monger sees fit to find yet another loophole to have even more money going stale instead of doing the rounds in what's commonly known as economy. Stale money locked away is only good for one, money doing the rounds is good for all.
Criminal assets need to be used to prop up Police & emergency services. Public Service Wage ceilings should be no more than 5 times the minimum wage. Anyone wanting better money better make it themselves, don't bludge off the tax payer. Ousted politicians should have to wait to access their Super until age 65, just like us. Imagine the living standard we could have in Australia.

If you want to save your country's future and that of others, you need to stop banks creating money out of thin air. Those gifted with legal counterfeiting are able to manipulate the markets of the world for the benefit of the few.

They get to set, manipulate prices.
They get to set, manipulate interest rates.
They get to set, manipulate wages.
They get to set land and house prices.
They get to devalue the worth of your currency via inflation and artificially created scarcity.
They create the boom, bust, business cycle for their own ends.
They get to create winners and losers.
They allow your government to spend the productivity of your children's, children.
They get to indebt your children and your children's, children, robbing them of their future's.
They get to codify in law what you can legally exchange in free trade with others.
They have the power to destroy whole countries and rob them of their wealth.
They are now allowed to steal money directly from your bank accounts and from your tax contributions.
They get to launder money to those that will enrich them further. And much, much, more, all for the benefit of a few.

They get to do all of of these things with the complicity of your governments.

Tell me why we allow this to happen? Can you not see how detrimental all this is to every living person on the planet? Can you not see the end game? Or are you willfully ignorant?

Give me control of a nations currency and I care not who makes her laws!

They get to do all of of these things with the complicity of your governments.
RawMustard,
So, in your opinion it then doesn't make any difference which Government ? I simply can't help thinking that at least in Australia a Coalition Government will always do a better job than an ALP Government. I have been here well over 40 years & have yet to see us making progress under an ALP Government. Don't get me wrong I don't think it's not possible but I think it's highly unlkely that an ALP Government could manage for the good of all rather than just a selected group of supporters such as Public Servants & those relying on public funding due to unproductivity..

We never truly looked in depth at the effects of leaving world trade and staying.
We did our usual best that is to belt Labor on flimsy grounds and take the thread in to a tiny corner of its true width, tax
In complaining about our losses we should also credit our gains from globalization.
I step lightly around Individuals anti Labor comments.
Chuckling madly, knowing it was Labor who opened this country to world trade and reformed our banking system.

Globalisation is already ending.
It seems to have started with the production of furniture and sheet &
bar steel back to the US.
"insourcing" as it is now called is spreading.
One news item today, more Honda cars are exported from the US than are imported.

It was originally started by the rising cost of bunker fuel and the
cost of container freight but has now been driven by higher wages in China.
The tendency has also been driven by the increasing number of diesel cars.
The refineries have had to be reconfigured to produce more diesel and less bunker fuel.
The result is ships have to buy a mixture of bunker & diesel. More $$

Many politicians are enthusiastic about it because it did work for
some time but laying down rigid rules was its fatal flaw.
That globalisation has failed in the long term has become obvious
because it was unable to cope with rising energy prices.

We are about to enter a new free trade zome treaty, TPP as it is
called which inevitably will be a disaster in the longer term.

So the question is not what can we do about globalisation, but how can we hurry it to its grave.

Are we all talking about the same thing, I wonder.

>>Globalisation is already ending. It seems to have started with the production of furniture and sheet & bar steel back to the US. "insourcing" as it is now called is spreading. One news item today, more Honda cars are exported from the US than are imported.<<

Bazz, none of the above has anything at all to do with "globalization ending".

Insourcing - or more accurately in this context, re-shoring - is about reviving local manufacturing capabilities that previously outsourced parts or all of their production to countries with a lower cost base. Either the labour costs in the target country have increased to make the venture non-viable, or the company has found a way to manufacture more cheaply, locally. Neither the process nor the result has the slightest relevance to "globalization" per se.

On the question of Honda exports from the US, that surely indicates the success, not failure, of globalization?

Colour me puzzled by your reasoning.

To me globalisation means manufacturing where cheapest and shipping
the goods around the world.
However what is happening now as growth falters due to increased energy
costs unemployment is increasing and people once employed in the
service industries are finding their jobs paying less.

Globalisation worked fine while growth was rampant but it fails as the
GDP and growth decreases and everything gradually becomes local.

The Honda case you mention is an example, energy costs have risen in
Japan, because of their nuclear problems and 8 one million barrel
tankers have to arrive in Japanese ports EVERY day. This cost of
shipping oil and coal is driving Japan to the wall.
The rising cost of shipping their manufactures will soon cease export
and everything will become local.

I know that the rising cost of energy is an unpopular notion that many
people are unable to stomach, but it is relentless and unstoppable.

Bazz as you know I disagree energy prices are too high in this country.
Recent,this last week, promises that prices will fall, electric power from the provider seems to agree with me.
But even more important,in fact wiping power out totally is Labour costs.
We can never compete there nor should we try.
Nothing even a global war can stop global trade.
In its own way it existed not long after we left the caves objects from across the world traded for other needed goods.
I continue to believe in youth.
With no0 room for doubt in my mind they will find other fuels when needed.
Remember not long ago our oil for lighting came only from whales seals and Penguins.

Ha, yes Belly I know what you are saying.
Well electricity price may fall, perhaps because taxes are changed.
I have not heard that coal is getting cheaper.
It can only get more expensive.

Not sure what you meant by this;
But even more important,in fact wiping power out totally is Labour costs.
We can never compete there nor should we try.

Cost of transport will stop trade. Even sailing ships will be too costly now.
There will be room for small expensive components, even air freight
for expensive items, eg computer chips.
Bulk transport of food will put that food out of the reach of poorer people.

You said;
With no0 room for doubt in my mind they will find other fuels when needed.
Remember not long ago our oil for lighting came only from whales seals and Penguins.

With 7 billion people now, how long will the penguins last ?
The search for alternative fuels is looking very dodgy.
Nuclear is now I think out of the question for financial and insurance
reasons.
We no longer can raise enough finance to build nuclear in time.
We have hopes like "Cold Fusion" hiding in the wings but that is the
type of hope we now rely upon.
It is doubtful if we have enough time to finance and build enough
wind & solar systems provided we solve the other problem, storage !

Remember we only have to perhaps 2017 to 2022 to get the project
well under way, and the politicians are showing no interest at all.
As Mr Micawber said, "Something will turn up".
They are just an echo of you Belly !

That's more of a symptom than a definition, Bazz.

>>To me globalisation means manufacturing where cheapest and shipping the goods around the world<<

Merriam Webster describe globalization as the "development of an increasingly integrated global economy marked especially by free trade, free flow of capital, and the tapping of cheaper foreign labor markets"

In their view - and in mine - the desire for increased economic integration comes first, and is then evidenced by such things as balancing labour costs across economies.

Free trade is another symptom of globalization which, if you think about it, is an important prerequisite of the use of cheaper labour in country B over country A. There's no point in setting up a factory in a low-cost labour zone, if the product is priced out of its destination markets by prohibitive tariffs.

Globalization in its fullest sense has been of massive benefit to pretty much everyone. Remember when China started getting serious about manufacturing? Since then, half a billion of their people have been lifted above the poverty line; meanwhile, Australia has enjoyed a mineral-led boom that has fed us all extremely well indeed.

Sorry Bazz but gee you miss read my thoughts.
No way I think our new fuels will be boiling down wild life.
And my thought that wages of less than $60 a month vs ours was not the issue.
Holden and Ford are leaving to get those type of wages not ours.
You have not heard of the recent commitment of out two biggest electricity seller to reduce prices?
Nothing to do with tax, a large amount was to build new power lines as that finishes prices will fall.
And Bazz you have every right to your doom and gloom thoughts on fuel/energy.
I am unconvinced that the sky is falling and made my references to Penguins to highlight today,s great changes from what once was.
And confidently refer to a Patent office thought 80 years ago*that every thing that can be invented has been invented* just as wrong as it was then.
cheers

No Belly, I did not think you were advocating boiling down penguins,
it was a joke !
OK on the fall in electricity prices due to work completion.
No I had not heard that, that is encouraging.
I am surprised however as I thought Julia's "Gold Plating" was going to
yake a lot longer.

Re my doom & gloom on fuel, well it is based on arithmetic and is
really hard to deny.
Anyway peak oil is not the future it is literally history now.
There is no way these fracked wells can overcome 4.5% decline rate of
conventional wells.

Pericles, I find myself largely in agreement with your post.
Quote:
>>To me globalisation means manufacturing where cheapest and shipping the goods around the world<<

Merriam Webster describe globalization as the "development of an increasingly integrated global economy marked especially by free trade, free flow of capital, and the tapping of cheaper foreign labor markets"

I do not find mine and your quote to be contradictory in any way.
I believe that the current growth decline is caused by the increasing
cost of energy and that globalisation cannot flourish in a low growth
or what is more likely a zero growth world.

Many who study this field think that the only way to reach a balance
is for a contraction of the world economies to a level that can
match the world population with resources.

Just in case anyone thinks I am talking through my hat about the energy
problem and in particular the tight oil supplies read this by one
of the oil industries well known long time experts;

http://tinyurl.com/n7arawv

He believes that tight oil will peak this year !

Bazz I just about knew what you meant but here we part ways.
See household power started to become to expensive after the NSW ALP in government, privatized it.
I strongly hold the view it needed reform and changed work practices not selling.
We like every state, are in the hands of profit chasers in this area.
Bet we all would be very upset if we knew what politicians hold big share portfolios in this area.
However the solar installation industry is seeing lots of power, much more than some think, returned to the grid under the cost power stations can produce it.
Mate honestly we have been told peak oil is here from about nineteen eighty!
It daily becomes clear alternatives exist, right now, costs however are a problem.
I tend to believe in science and they seem confident that we will use far cleaner and far more available alternative fuels within 50 years.cheers
PS solar rebates while needing addressing are varied some get the 60 cents, putting some $2.50 a day in credit.
Late comers get either 2 cents yes two and I get 6 six cents.
Bet a day comes that all get about six cents the day after contracts end seems about right

I'm not sure that is the case, Bazz.

>>I believe that the current growth decline is caused by the increasing
cost of energy and that globalisation cannot flourish in a low growth
or what is more likely a zero growth world.<<

I could make an equally convincing case that the recent decline in growth was caused by the GFC, and that is also the reason why it is presently recovering. If your theory that the decline was caused by the increasing cost of energy, how come that decline has reversed?

I also dispute that globalization cannot work in a low-growth or zero-growth world economy. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that in order to ensure the survival of as many economies as possible (in your apocalyptic scenario), the need to integrate them becomes greater, not less.

Sorry, Indy have been a bit busy lately.

< So, in your opinion it then doesn't make any difference which Government ? >

The only difference I can see, Indy. Is which pocket they get to rob your hard earned wealth from. One steals from your left pocket and the other steals from your right pocket. At the end of the day you're still poorer.

The fact that the left, right division created by both has us all arguing for who should get what and at who's expense should enlighten you to how effective the two party fraud works to keep your eyes where they don't want you to look!

Also witness those that work in financial circles tell you how good everything is and how the world is recovering. Even a blind man can see the world is in a fraudulent, debt driven shithole with no recovery in sight.

Pericles;
Well I would not press that globalisation won't work in a low or zero
growth economies.
We will have to wait and see I guess.

You said;
I could make an equally convincing case that the recent decline in
growth was caused by the GFC,

Well actually the GFC was caused by the end of growth of oil production in 2006 !
That is the date of conventional crude oil peak.
The International Energy Authority in their 2010 Outlook report
said so and it was spot on for several predictions of oil field
experts including Colin Campbell, Kenneth Deffreys and Jean Laherrer.
The oil price rose during 2005 to 2008 when it reached $147 for WTI
in July and the economy crashed in September.

The petrol in the US got to $4+ during 2007 & 2008 and all those car
commuters had a choice, buy food, buy petrol or pay the mortgage.
The housing crashed and took those CDRs and a few banks with them.

In 2010 fracking got seriously underway because the oil companies
knew they were in a bind and had to find new supply.
Fracking had been used for 30 years to a small extent but it is an
expensive process and currently has a well head cost about $70 to $80.

This has enabled the present very weak growth to continue but if you
read Jean Laherrer's report you will realise it cannot continue.

http://tinyurl.com/n7arawv

There is a link on the above page to his original report.

Somewhat related to what we have been discussing about globalisation.
The export of our natural gas production.
Here is an article related to whether the US will export crude oil and
using the UK's experience with export and whether it was worth it.

I can see a similar situation with our export of gas.
Under the WTO and the incoming trade agreement, the TTP,
Trans Pacific Trade agreement soon to be signed we could be sued by
foreign companies if we refused to export gas.

So I think this article which is about oil has lessons for our gas export.

http://www.resilience.org/stories/2014-02-04/u-s-crude-oil-exports-really-a-look-at-the-uk

Bit long that, try this;

http://tinyurl.com/l7n3vnx

While I placed great importance on my thread about Union corruption I give this thread equal billing.
We do need to look at our trading future.
I have just read an American financial wizz, who among other things predicted the 2008 crash.
He warns that China will find trouble next year and too that we will suffer.
He tells us he thinks 50 percent will be wiped of our housing prices in a burst bubble.
So watching our spending personal at least matters.
Reforms must come that increase productivity in this country .
A given truth but it seems not the time to risk markets but to look for more that help us grow.

Individual
The hawke/ Keating government, floated the dollar, opened the economy to global competition, cut tariffs across industries, introduced banking competition, introduced telco competition, eviscerated the unions, removed free tertiary education, privatised the cba, and others, introduced compulsory super to unburden the public expense for a growing number of retires.

Is there a coalition government who could have even dreamed of implementing a fraction of these changes?. Your display of partisan cheer leading is entirely disconnected from any fragment of reality. The hawke / Keating government had its failings, the Rudd / Gillard government even more so. But no coalition government holds a candle to hawke/ Keating. The preceding coalition Fraser government is by comparison a rabid communist cabal.

On the other hand, the Howard government, can claim it found Australia's true calling by stripping us into one big global quarry, delegating all foreign policy to Washington, whilst domestically concentrating media ownership, enabling cartel domination by Coles / Safeway and the banks, casualizing the workforce. Ostensibly reducing the number of public servants but overseeing the introduction of even greater wastage by public funds being directed to egregious consultancies and contracting of anything and everything.

As for Abbott , playing chicken with the automative industry, lets see how this plays out. Negotiation, bluff and bluster is all part of the political landscape. But if in the end Australia loses its automotive industry entirely, Abbott will oversee a one term government. Put simply the loss of the automotive industry would be a catastrophic disaster - an act of political and economic vandalism.

Right now neither the coalition or the ALP is fit to govern.

Yebiga, everything you said could be true or false, it does not matter a fig.
The game is now operating under different rules.
It is no longer business as usual !

Conventional crude oil peaked in 2006 at about 82 Million Barrels a day.
It is now down to 72 MBD. FRacking for tight oil has buffered it up to
meet demand, albeit at much higher price.
Tight oil is now peaking and will start declining this year.
That means all oil will start declining, unless Iraq can perform a
miracle.
All this depends on interest rates in the US remaining very low.
If interest rates rise the tight oil finance will disappear and it
will be every country for itself.

The pressure this will put on politicians will be enormous.
Can you imagine the demand for fuel when Australia goes onto strict
rationing, provided we can get a guarantee that the oil we sell can
be refined to petrol & diesel just for us ?
We may be able to barter gas for petrol & diesel.

About the first thing that will happen is that all international
trade agreements will go straight into the bin.
This especially applies to Australia because we will be at the mercy
of world markets to get our 1 MBD and we really are small cheese in
that scramble.

YERBIGA welcome I see the total truth in your post others highlight Individual, will never agree.
You and I know apart from 2010 to 2013 the ALP best serves on a too party system near or just over half our population.
Yet street corner sprooker,s here talk of us as if we are vermin.

Recent research information on the type of people who vote one way or the other was interesting.
To say the least conservatives it said are more likely to fear things that do not exist.
A great site OLO but we, who are not just right of far right are thin on the ground.