May well be some one has this subject on the way if so no need for mine.
Ostrich is my name for some of unionism head in the sand saying she,l be right mate.
How many times have I lambasted this union ? hundreds?
How many times have I said the word solidarity is now unclean a word made filthy by its miss use covering up things best fought and aired.
The announcement this morning is not news to me.
My union official days saw me at war more often with them,than bosses.
It saw them more intent on damaging honest unions than fighting for workers rights.
I too saw to their eternal shame, managers of some of our biggest construction firms buy protection from the CFMEU by stalling other unions [with far more members] at every chance.
Watch this issue it may be the one.
One day intent on *solidarity* the whole union movement will have to confront rank and file membership require much better.
Unionist need to see the true revulsion they have for such as the CFMEU and HSU in the words and actions of their unions

Belly, same old same old eh?
Yeah I've been in the industry since 1988 and come from an anti union family, when my dad was a foreman in the 1970's we used to have men coming around to our house in the middle of the night trying to break in and attack him, when I started work I was ostracised because I bore his name and we'd be slandered in every issue of the union magazine.
The only interactions I've ever had with the BLF and it's successors the BWIU and CFMEU have been heated or openly violent to the point that the Police were called. One time when I was leading hand on an inner city site the foreman, the builder, his secretary and I were held hostage in one of the units for half an our before the cops arrived as four union goons screamed threats and obscenities at us, the only thing that kept them out was the steel framed fire door which they tried and failed to kick in.
And bikies? They used to be the easiest ones to deal with as long as you didn't purposely aggravate them, were scaffolding and steel fixing always a bikie gig where you lived?

Belly, you open the door for the band of usual suspects on here to engage in some good old fashioned union bashing. I have expressed to you in the past my utter contempt for the likes of Craig Thomson and Michael Williamson and how they used and abused the low paid members of the HSU. the old expression "May they rot in hell" certainly applies to this pair. I told you that my partner, a long standing active member of the HSU resigned in disgust at the goings on within, she has since rejoined and is again an active delegate working for the benefit of the membership. That is a part of what unionism is all about. The union is not the president, its not the officials, its the membership, the solidarity of that membership, brothers in arms.
Today's allegations in the Herald, which I have read, about the CFMEU are indeed shameful and deserve the fullest of investigation and the application of law where and if required. There is no lower man on the planet that one who will would betray another's trust. These individuals and others like them do more damage to the cause of the worker than any boss will ever be capable of doing.
Not withstanding all of this I still believe unions and unionism has been a positive good for the working men and women of Australia.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-28/union-accused-of-ties-to-crime-figures-kickbacks-for-jobs/5221234

Dear Belly,

I can understand your frustration when the unions
do their job badly and or are corrupt.
However, most people support
without reservation the right of all working
people to join together so as to preserve and
protect their livelihoods. Of course more unions
need to be honest and more sensitive to the
realities of modern economic conditions. Sectarian
attitudes and greed serve the cause of labour badly.

What political donations have the Greens and Labor received from the CFMEU and the Commancheros?

What prevented the previous Labor-Greens government from taking action to stop or at least investigate the corruption and crime that is now being unveiled by the media?

The Greens throw their weight around in the Senate. How come they have never said anything about this?

Paul,
You mean the 15% of the workforce who belong to unions? Yeah, I'm sure the payoff is great if you're not overly bothered by a conscience, that is to say union members who are benefiting from these agreements are parties to corruption, standover and violence.
Not every Bolshevik was a Commissar and not every Nazi was a Gauleiter but they all benefited and grew fat by turning a blind eye to the real cost of their prosperity.

Foxy,
You mean the greed of the elite 15% of workers whose selfishness and $100,000 plus salaries are hurting the prospects of others in the labour market? Do you know what the median income for non union tradesmen is? Last time I checked it was $58,000, for unionists it's over 90 and they do almost no work compared to independents and non union employees. Unionism is a racket, a gang activity, they don't even really try to recruit anymore because that might tend to affect their elite status and their bottom line, god help them if men of conscience ever got their foot in the door.

JOM, Foxy,Paul, thanks for thoughtful and true posts I agree with each of you.
For me however it is vital folk know I put this thread up *because of my love for the union movement, and too my fear/belief it has stopped listening to its members.
Well yes JOM I did face a Commenchero in my area, he became a member and staunch one of my union and I made him delegate.
I never endorsed a delegate who was not trusted to remain civil and see as much as possible both sides.
Revulsion? if only!
If only the top ten in any union could understand hiding the filth never works, and too the damage done *forever* as some are so upset they leave the union movement.
I do not blame them, I unlike too many know their thoughts and share most of them.
In the end hiding the true nature of the CFMEU is not solidarity it questions the intelligence of the average union member insulting them on the way.
Recruitment will rise if we win back the trust of the only people that matter, union members.
Paul I am proud of your true old fashioned solidarity, but know mate we sat in those chairs as union officers saying we would leave the movement better than we found it.
Tell me that is true of the HSU or CFMEU and the unions it swallowed upon its way to being our biggest group of thugs?
I have more from on the job actions next time.

Dear Jay,

I'll repeat what I've said in the past.

We are in critical times and Australia requires a
re-assessment of the relationship
between labour and capital,
a re-assessment which takes into account
the politics of industrial
democracy, profit, and long-term planning. What we don't
need is the "kick-the-worker-today-and-take-the-money-tomorrow"
attitude that comes from the Cold War warriors who are
currently at work around the place.

The only way in which this country can work properly is for
management and labour to co-operate with one another,
not condemn one another. But the sad truth is that
condemnation is the only language that some people appear to
understand. Take this quote from the Peko-Wallsend boss
Charles Copeman:

"It isn't a matter for conciliation, it's a matter
for arbitration. We are not prepared to conciliate!"

Obviously the inevitable expansion of capital
with its attendant social inequality and natural
destruction brooks no interference and allows for no
moral judgements.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-01-28/union-accused-of-ties-to-crime-figures-kickbacks-for-jobs/5221234
The kink in part from the source of this story is worth a read.
Let me say it is far from the first time this union has been called to answer charges like this.
Just once I hope the whole truth followed by prison terms is unmasked.
And that the Ostriches in this and other industry unions come to understand *this behavior is the very stuff we fought bosses for*
The so called AWU fraud it is said Gillard had at least some part in was based on just this, employers being blackmailed to keep trading.
And at the other end criminals buying union favor, *at a loss to that unions members* so underpaid workers could be ripped of by that criminal sponsored by? they very union they thought was looking after them.
A tragic side issue is the thugs and mugs union in doing filthy deals with that filthy boss got promises the betrayed workers WOULD BE FORCED TO JOIN THAT UNION!

Foxy, "Obviously the inevitable expansion of capital with its attendant social inequality and natural destruction brooks no interference and allows for no moral judgements."

That is another cut and paste. It is from a post you made on a different thread some time ago. Perhaps others can remember similar from threads prior to that.

It is absolute rot, meaningless gibberish. Where do you get that twisted stuff, the Green Left Weekly?

Beach, the CFMEU and the Commancheros donate exactly the same amount of money to The Greens as they do to The Liberal Party. I can't speak for the ALP.

"You mean the 15% of the workforce who belong to unions" Jay could you please provide a link to back that up.

Belly I warned you! Your thread would bring out the Right Wing Raving Rat Bags and they certainly haven't disappointed, goose stepping all over this one. For them its the next best thing to listing to a Fuhrer speech from Nuremberg.

For them its the next best thing to listing to a Fuhrer speech from Nuremberg.

Sounds like the morons are in full swing imagination paranoia mode again.

Paul 1405, ".. the CFMEU and the Commancheros donate exactly the same amount of money to The Greens as they do to The Liberal Party. I can't speak for the ALP"

So you allege. However, here is proof that the Greens accept political donations from the CTMEU:

Greens defend CFMEU donation
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-04/greens-defend-donation-from-pokie-operators/4242936

The CFMEU is reported to have links with organised crime and the Commanchero OMC.

Now what about you back your allegations up with proof?

again the Labour Greens refuse to work in national interest. Treachery again. I wonder if Shorten feels his union involement would will be under the spotlight.

Spot on there Indi, the Usual Suspects are at it again, with their anti-union anti-worker rants As you say "Sounds like the morons are in full swing imagination paranoia mode again." Keep up the good work comrade!

Beach, no need to worry about donations to The Greens, its some of those shadowy front organisations and foreign interests corperations donating to the Liberal Party one should be concerned with. They represent vested interests wanting, and getting, political favor.
The Liberal Party, and for that matter the Labor Party have that many owners, those that have bought a share in them through political cash giving, that they couldn't possibly pass enough favorable legislation to satisfy them all, but its not through a lack of trying, is it? You also failed to mention that the CFUME gave $50,000 at the last election to Katters United Party and nothing to The Greens.

here is a big list for you

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/28/australia-political-donations-parties

Paul even with the emergence of a second raving far right poster my thread is a truth the movements needs to confront.
http://www.smh.com.au/national/cfmeu-veteran-received-death-threats-after-blowing-whistle-20140128-31kvb.html
See my point of view *we must confront our wrongs*
*Or stop trying to uncover others, true unionism is the victim here, and it exists.
Try to put your self in my shoes, being constantly at war with these thugs, having no choice but to confront them or fail my members.
Solidarity was once a proud word it no longer is.
I rebut firmly, your thought I should just ride out the storm pretending it will fix its self.
We now have a Royal Commission.
It will hurt, and force home the view it should have been us the trade union movement who first took the broom to our own rats in the ranks.
By the way the CFMEU has constantly tried to infiltrate the greens.
In my work area they had achieved that even openly inviting votes for them.

Unionism is an enigma. It's supposed to be good but only ever results in corruption. It even corrupts the few it actually helps. it's supposed to help the workers but actually propels prices out of workers' reach. In the early days Unions were good but that didn't last long & nowadays they're simply syndicates for people with no integrity. Those who have integrity are lost in the trample for position.

Belly, I'm not asking you to "just ride out the storm pretending it will fix its self." No, my casual observation was that "you open the door for the band of usual suspects on here to engage in some good old fashioned union bashing." Which is their prerogative to do so.
Are you surprised that there would be such revelations about some within the CFMEU, I'm not. The sad reality is the building industry has been a 'hot bed' of criminality for years and years, as long as I can remember. A blast from the past Big Norm Gallagher and the BLF, crime in the building game didn't die with Norm, it just moved on.
Do you think that criminality within the industry is confined to the workers and their unions, could the bosses and the owners also have a hand in some skulduggery at times, they certainly do in my book.
Although my partner was an active member of the HSU, and it was the first time in my life I ever advised someone to resign from the union, I still retained my membership of another union. Like some here will do, I didn't judge the whole union movement by the actions of a slimy few. In the case of the building industry, a tough industry breeds even tougher individuals, and some of those individuals will be criminals. In no way am I resigned to accepting that fact as a "fait accompli", it is only right that the good amongst use, such as yourself and my partner, work to rid the union movement of such people whenever, and wherever possible.
Now, if news broke that the 'Comancheros' had infiltrated the CWA, I would be surprised!
"By the way the CFMEU has constantly tried to infiltrate the greens.
In my work area they had achieved that even openly inviting votes for them." Belly, news to me. No need for a bit of political point scoring against a Labor ally. The usual suspects will do that for you

A Royal Commission into the operation of unions is sorely needed. Union officials who work for their members and are not corrupt have nothing to fear. Those opposed have something to hide.

I understand what you are saying Paul, and thank you for it.
Sorry but I am filled with joy at these revelations.
Only long term good can come from it for unions in general.
But yes after much damage.
I firmly hate lieing to union membership or hiding the truth.
And thing only honesty can restore our name.
See unions, not all but too many, are stuck in the long ago a time class warfare actually existed.
It does not now.
Consider the things I saw, but must only wispier about, Civil construction once AWU territory is now a moving confrontation CFMEU using lies hate the whole box and dice of these lard headed mugs against the AWU.
While we quietly gained the membership mostly back from them.
They insult the members by trying 1950.s thug actions.
Indy let me tell you you are quite wrong good unions and good officials exist and for decades have been sidelined by bosses more afraid of a militant union than an open and honest one.
I am reminded while we had no halos the AWU, quite often was requested to please visit my workers, by bosses intent on doing an EBA with us so forcing the house invading filthy mouthed wife insulting grubs we talk about here.
Unheard of during work choice we saw workers bought together by a boss often, to let us try to get them in the union and write new agreements
Now no lie bosses put wage rises higher than we wanted to reward workers for leaving the criminal group known as the CFMEU!
New members are out there waiting for assurity unions are not all alike.

The corruption cannot be dealt with from within. Lives are at risk.

Bring on the Royal Commission.

Hi there BELLY old chap...

I really lament for you and your legitimate Union cohorts, as I believe it's only a very few, that engage in this illegality and corrupt behaviour. Chief amongst those, the likes of Messrs Craig Thompson and Michael Williamson, who are still presumed to be innocent, until convicted ?

I can understand why the PM is keen to broaden his enquiry into the conduct of Unions per se. But to create a Royal Commission, is going to be awfully expensive to the poor ol' Tax Payer ?

Why not create a unique squad of AFP, with a specially appointed SC at it's head, with the exclusive brief of examining the existence or otherwise of any criminality or corruption within the broad Union movement ? I'm no bean counter, surely though a far cheaper 'instrument of inquiry' then a fully credentialed Royal Commission ?

What's you views there CHRISGAFF1000, a far more adroit person, with Courts of Inquiry, than I ?

Ah Belly,

Your transition from true believer to a skeptical observer is noted.

As each scandal receives the publicity it so richly deserves, you duck and weave in gyrations akin to the Karma Sutra.

You still believe in trade unions, the ALP and the various institutions that have traditionally supported the causes of the left. What you fail to recognize is that all these have been subsumed by something you don’t comprehend, can’t accept and never saw coming, socialism.

There is no ALP, no trade unions, no independent media, no free thinking academia, no unaligned NGO’s, no unshackled Judiciary and no more gravy rain. That which once supported you ideological bonds is increasingly exposed as parasitic relationships by and for the progressive elements of our society.

You are making good progress as you gradually abandon the values you once assigned to the institutions you once held dear. You continually refer to, and credit like minded contributors with the “truth” as in most of your posts. You still see this as anything other than “objective truth”. A truth that fewer and fewer Australians accept, thanks to the ABC and Fairfax. It must be devastating to hear that the those who once supported your value/moral proposition have now abandoned you.

I have no idea how you will live with your once strongly held perspectives, but quite frankly I don’t really care because you bought it, now you have to accept your own responsibility for your “purchase”, remember, “buyer beware”.

It’s time you stopped bleating, mitigating and explaining your rejection of reality and came to terms with the failure of your ideology.

Like so many on OLO, we have absolutely no reason to mitigate your incompetence. You have made your bed and now you must lay on it. Tough titties.

Your response will no doubt be as incomprehensible as ever, but sadly you still don’t get it

http://www.skynews.com.au/topstories/article.aspx?id=946028&vId=4321149&cId=Top%20Stories
Spindoc you are indeed using a truly descriptive tag on this site, fits you like a glove!
O sung wo, well bloke yes and no, just as I from my first day here taken the stick to both arms of my life,s love, I can not hide my long term contempt for this union and its fellow travelers.

Here I speak to all but to Paul 1405 I highlight this.
The view that this event is all encompassing, every union every official,and therefore taints us and the ALP is the best evidence I could ever find to justifies airing this.
We in both party and union movement MUST at the least confront both, our own members union in this case and the public can to hold views that the whole barrel,all of us are rotten to the core.
Know spindoc is a product of Menzies house, but we arm him with the rocks he turns in to boulders and hurls back at us.
This morning I call on the truly great people I would trust with my life, to picket the court Thomson and the NSW filth appear in, wearing with pride union brands.
Words are far from enough, our absence looks bad when the damage done to our brand ,and those we consider our reason for existing.
I know good proud and honest men and women exist in the union movement, increasing *extremist Government* actions in the wages area is highlighting the need for unions.
We must man up, hold our own internal commission of inquiry,and remember we knew about the crime organization named the CFMEU and I have the scares to prove it!
We must reconsider our methods trying to cuddle the death adder, that union can be fatal.

"Is Labor too close to rotten unions to control them?"

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/why-did-labor-go-soft-on-the-unions/story-fni0ffxg-1226813335464

Dear Belly,

Some people are really trying to unsettle
you - don't let them affect you.
We've both experienced these run-of-the-mill
internet trolls who snipe with deeply personal
barbs from behind the cover of an alias identity.
They should only strengthen your resolve.
Do what I do - don't read their posts or respond
to them.

Anyway, here's a link that you may find interesting:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/unions-must-leave-labor-20100210-nsat.html

Foxy, generally a good article but holding up the American system as ideal is not what I would have in mind. The political dimension in Australia has certainly moved in my lifetime, and yes Whitlam more than any other was responsible for being the catalyst for that shift. Pre Whitlam the Australian worker could identify with Labor politically, throught the party and industrially through the union movement "he knew his place". Regardless of that identification it did not always equate to political power for Labor, more the fault of the Labor Party than anything the union movement or the worker done. The Labor Party through infighting and poor leadership, Arthur Calwell, failed post war Australia. The country was left to be governed by an unimaginative conservative in Robert Menzies, a period of lost opportunity.
With Whitlam it certainly was "It's time", but as history shows, Whitlam like Christ offered so much, only to be crucified when deliverance was at hand. Not totally the fault of the "powers that be", but to some extent, again the failure of the Labor Party.
Post Whitlam was the beginning of the big shift to the right by Labor. Very much a case of, if you can't beat them, join them. This Labor shift seen conservative Labor leaders come to the fore Hawke and Keating, certainly not old school Labor but the pragmatists that if abandoning principles was necessary to gain power these men were ready to deliver, and deliver they did, but at what cost? The slow and steady decline of the labor movement both politically and industrially in this country. What did the Gillard and Rudd governments achieve for Labor long term, nothing!

Paul 1405, "Post Whitlam was the beginning of the big shift to the right by Labor. Very much a case of, if you can't beat them, join them. This Labor shift seen conservative Labor leaders come to the fore Hawke and Keating"

Nonsense. They are all Fabians and so was Whitlam. Fabians, as in 'Progressives' or more correctly, International Socialists. They just like to camouflage their International Socialist ideology and commitment.

The Fabians, the self-acknowledged 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' have you all bluffed. To the Fabians you are the 'Useful Idiots' described in your Marxism.

Here, have a wake-up experience, a light-bulb moment:

"Wolves in Sheep's Clothing"
Sydney 2GB's Michael McLaren speaks with Dr. Amy McGrath, author of Wolves in Sheep's Clothing, about Agenda 21 and the influence of the Fabians on the world. [March 10, 2013].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OK54fBPTuZo

Beach, a case of "Reds Under The Bed". Fancy being fooled by this old dodo. Dr Amy McGrath flogging her phoney book.
For nearly two decades a group of cranky old right-wing reactionaries from the leafy suburbs of Sydney, such as Dr Amy McGrath of the H S Chapman Society, and cheered on by Alan Jones, Christopher Pearson, Paul Sheehan, and Professor David Flint. These people in their hysteria "see" communists at ever turn, Wow Bill Clinton was a communist! Was Ronald Reagan also a communist, Obama, as is the Queen of England, The Pope they just don't admit it. Assisted by that right wing plonker 2GB's Michael McLaren. what an "interview" incomprehensible nonsense.
Anyone taking notice of this batty old fool could be described as a 'Useful Idiot" but I'm not sure about the useful part. Have you listened to this "interview", I rest my case.

Beach, A used car salesman bought 21 copies of the old fools book. What did he do with them, give a free copy to every customer he ripped off?
This must be a gee up, thanks Beach a good bit of comedy, does that woman also do a Miss Marple?
"He started GetUp with $1500, ar, oh, um $1.5 million"
Listening to the old fool you would think The Fabian Society must hold their AGM at the Melbourne Cricket Ground, with her name dropping everyone who's anyone is a member. can you furnish a list of Non-Fabian Society members, it would be shorter!

Thanks Foxy, your heart is big, wellaware of that Paul is currently in that fly trap.
8 years and a bit have seen my posting here.
And very often threads I posted demand better from my party and my union movement.
No one can claim to have seen a thread maybe even a single post highlighting Liberal wrongs from that side of the fence.
I have watched the trolls, no way am I claiming all Liberals are trolls come and go.
The worst have common faults, lack of ability to win debates leads all too soon to insults.
I rest easy, never [Labor 2010/2013 did it] have I seen a Liberal government being so self destructive .
And destruction it will be freedom of the press will be bigger than work choices.
Anti worker/wages too.
Murdock/Abbott PTY LTD is about to be seen world wide and is far Worse than any so called crime Labor has been said to be involved in.
Strap in seat belt on, Abbott is now only a fill in PM he will not last his first term.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-union-movement-is-facing-tough-times-20140131-31sb7.html
Even if it is the last post in this thread my posted link demands attention.
It openly talks of truths and public percepts wrong ones at times.
But hidden in a wrong culture, one anchored in a past that is long gone solidarity needs reinventing.
It currently is a meaningless chant not remotely linked to its past meaning.
For *&^% sake! these are crimes against the very people unions existed once, to protect and help.
Like some in the ALP an element of internalism, hunker down and take no action exists.
Betraying both and those who thought both existed for them.
It is long over due the change and new mission statements are spoken of, do not defend the filth, be the first to expose them!.
A reminder is due it is not our fellow travelers we need to tell the whole truth to, but those we know will do it if we do not.
Current self satisfied views telling the internals the truth is enough, thinking the out sidrs have no right to know is killing my union movement.
Putting our arm over the shoulder of the CFMEU and saying she,l be right brother is sinking a knife in to true rank and file unionism's heart.
Please find the guts the heart the idealism, that those who came before us had, they expected better from us this generation is sliding us down ever time they call for solidarity built on a shambles of crime and thuggish behavior.

Dear Belly,

Beautifully put.

You express the ideals and values that
are well worth aspiring to for the bettwrment
of us all.

Belly, I know from your posts, you are a person of ideals, passion and commitment, a bloke who believes in a fair go for all, the rights of the common man. These things are worth more than money, that are what makes a truly good bloke, enough of this pissing in your pocket stuff, but I sincerely believe them to be true, I hope you stick with you beliefs, and hold on to your principles till the end of your days.
I opened your link and sadly what do I see first, the images of Thomson and Williamson and having said what I did about you above, none of it applies to these two grubs, and a few other low life's I could mention. They are the antithesis of everything good about the union movement and the truly committed people involved, past and present. It highlights every thing wrong in the movement from the recent past to today. The chart that shows membership at 40% in 1992 to less than 20% today, a sad indictment indeed. These people do far more damage to the movement and the people it represents, than any boss, any Abbott or any rabid anti worker can ever do, they destroy the soul of the movement.
Fortunately that are not indicative of ALL within the movement but a scumbag minority and hopefully through the efforts and commitment of people of goodwill, the movement will eventually be restored to its rightful place as a champion of the working men and women of this country.
Belly take care and stay true to what you believe. As one of those Little Green Pixie's, I might not always be popular, but I can sleep at night satisfied that what I believe in is good and just.

Paul1405,

What you are concerned to hide is that senior Labor figures past and present openly boast of their Fabian and 'Progressive' leanings, and even of their International Socialist ideology. The nudge, nudge, wink, wink, key word 'progressive' is woven into almost every public statement and policy.

Shorten and other sly operators should re-name Labor, the Fabian, 'Progressive' or International Socialist Party. Because that is what they are about and their takeover of Labor is complete.

Your denial is ridiculous. But why do you bother unless you reckon it is something to conceal? Wouldn't do to let the Labor membership into the secret. But then again, the Labor membership don't elect their leaders do they? The Fabians have weighted the vote to knee-cap the members who must either suck it up or leave, in some cases after giving decades of loyal support.

As a Green you would be digging holes under Labor anyhow. That is the way of the Greens - treachery - as recent 'partnership' with Labor in government has shown, federally and in Tasmania.

Beach, good on ya old salt! The Fabians have landed, they have infiltrated every facet of society, so you and those cranky old right-wing reactionaries from the leafy burbs of Sydney would have us believe. Like a kind of retro McCarthyism you people see "Reds" here, there and everywhere, no doubt this forum is peppered with "them", I must be a Fabian. They are everywhere, just the other day I walked into me local butchery, to get a keg of snags for a bar-be, said "G'day Joe, are you a fab" Joe the butch, gave me a funny look and said "Nah, I'm a Reds supporter" a sure sign Joe's an undiagnosed Fabian. As I left I did overhear Joe saying to his off sider "that bloke said I was a fag.. me thinks him a bit strange." Strange me! That Joe is a bloody Fabian, but like a true Fabian, wont admit it! Beach, I found that interview with the Miss Marple character you posted to be right off the planet. Old salt all I can say to you is keep on believing it, you never know it might even come true one day.

Paul1405,

So are you saying that Julia Gillard lied about her membership and the influence of the Fabians in the Labor Party? Here is video of her reluctant admissions and attempted deflections in the 'People's Forum' in Perth, July 2012, where Bob Hawke was also referred to,

@ 0:45 and on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhvuR05ZNUY

Gillard left no-one in any doubt that Fabian equals 'Progressives', but she was silent about the International Socialism agenda.

The Fabians are active in Left 'think tanks' like Get-Up as well, but maybe you are in denial about that too.

What about the present Labor leader Bill Shorten aka 'Whatever she says'? Would you also like to deny that he ever addressed the Fabians at their knees-ups? Or would you like to chance a different tack now?

Labor is now the Fabian Party aka 'Progressives' aka a subsidiary/franchise of International Socialism. As the self-acknowledged 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' the 'Progressives' in Labor are not going to be up for that though, now are they?

In lieu of,

"Labor is now the Fabian Party aka 'Progressives' aka a subsidiary/franchise of International Socialism. As the self-acknowledged 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' the 'Progressives' in Labor are not going to be up for that though, now are they?",

the last paragraph should read,

"Labor is now the Fabian Party aka 'Progressives' aka a subsidiary/franchise of International Socialism. As the self-acknowledged 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' the 'Progressives' in Labor are not going to be up for truth in naming and advertising as the Fabian/'Progressives'/International Socialist Party, now are they?"

I am experiencing very hard times trying to post in this thread but not on others or other sites e mail and news sites.
Lost two posts trying this morning and another this morning same yesterday but not any other place any one else?

Weird stuff.
Try once more Paul I worry less about the few ranters.
My concerns are at those we would call fellow travelers.
We confronted by the most right wing government in this country,s history must confront the truth.
We put them there.
Not you and me but the NSW filth the Criminals within the HSU, tack Gillards AWU scandal onto the list.
Some thing looking backs till stinks there not however the union/informant.
Then 2010 till last year.
What a lovely mess and yesterdays attempt by the right to do it all over in South Australia?
We put Tony Abbott in government.
And unless we both groups, lead in unmasking the filth he will remain there for a long time.
Those who insist on solidarity hiding the truth, are filth too!
Remember the world knows and pretending we do not will kill us

Beach, all a bit of a beat up to me by you and Miss Marple.

The Australian Fabians' Statement of Purpose states:

Australian Fabians promote the common good and foster the advance of social democracy in Australia through reasoned debate by:

a) Contributing to progressive political thinking by generating ideas that reflect a level of thinking that meets the challenges of the times.

b) Contributing to a progressive political culture by disseminating these ideas and getting them into the public domain.
c) Creating an active movement of people who identify with, are engaged in and who encourage progressive political debate and reform, and
d) Influencing the ideas and policies of political parties, especially the Australian Labor Party.

So states Wikipedia. I can hear you now. Oh! yes they would say that, BUT they just wont admit they are all a bunch of raving REDS!

Sound like a Labor Party/progressive think tank to me.

What do you make of this bunch:

The Centre for Independent Studies
The Institute of Public Affairs
The Sydney Institute
The Menzies Research Centre
The Page Research Centre

Any fascists amongst the above?

Paul1405,

So you now concede that many Labor leaders in recent times were Fabians?

Your new tack is to minimise, but you still haven't dealt with the essential issue which is that the Fabians aka 'Progressives' aka International Socialists control the Labor Party. That is something you previously denied.

Also, there is the not so small fact that the Greens are constantly undermining and white-anting Labor. You should take credit for that on behalf of the Greens. BTW, how is that Greens mate you claim, the featherweight Shoebridge?

Beach, you failed to address the question I posed about the "societies","institutes" "pressure groups" whatever you wish to call them, are any members fascists? Are any members also members of the Liberal Party? What is the the relationship between the extreme right wing neo-fascists of the H R Nicholls Society and the Liberal Party? How much control does the Catholic Church have over active member Abbott. Is Australia's attitude/policy to asylum seekers determined by the Pentecostal Church through active member Immigration Minister Morrison? Plenty of questions there for you Beach.
Beach, you draw a long bow, Labor Party, Fabians, Progressives, International Socialist agenda controlling the Labor Party. Nothing has changed from the days when people such as yourself would make the outlandish claim that the Labor Party was "controlled" from Moscow. you suffer colour paranoia.
Switch colour to green. Greens white ant Labor you say it as if its a fact. The Liberal Party is under the control of the 5% Cow Cocky Nationals! Then you throw in an irrelevant question about David Shoebridge. I assume David is fine on this sunny Sunday morning.
How many hours a week does your very own Miss Marple (Ms Amy McGrath) spend looking under beds for "REDS"? Do you give up your time to assist Miss Marple in her lifelong quest to flush out "REDS" from under those beds? Looking forward to your answers

Having made a stand for honest reform including outing of our criminals our selves exposing them to the air as we should its time to consider.
No doubt at all I am irking some posters,with my entrenched belief Abbott is not the man to lead this country.
Even less doubt my true convictions Murdock is behind every move this government take to murder the ABC.
I ask for considered thought here, are my words any worse than the extremist posting in this thread?
Can it be that this country shifted so far in just a few months?
Do posters truly think voters on voting expected Holden to leave SPC to be knocked back.
Did they call for ABC to be culled on behalf of Murdock?
Then why are the polls running so consistently against Abbott.
*Are we in this country so entrenched in the way we vote we let the unfortunate truths about our side stay under our protection but slavishly hurl insults at the other side for their faults*.
I have here put the reason my union movement is going to die,without its self confronting its crimes against membership.
And hinted at the over control that movement has in Labor right faction.
Do to days generation of Liberals feel any need for concern at the move away from true Liberalism we are seeing?
Australian voters are not extremists not left not right they want the middle ground .
They will know it is far from the direction we are taking.
Good unions exist not talking to those who are not unionist ,telling them the truth the good the bad and the CFMEU is self mutilation leading to death, change is a promise not a threat.
In I think 1996 the convoy to Canberra other unions climbed on the buses while CFMEU members smashed the glass entrance to again do great harm to us all, we have too many unions in this country.

Paul1405,

What is astounding is that there are regular posters on here, some who have been posting for many years and holding forth on politics, who admitted as you have that were clueless, blissfully ignorant, about the takeover of Labor by the Fabians aka 'Progressives' aka International Socialists.

You obviously had to Google to find out about the Fabians aka 'Progressives' aka International Socialists. Rather taken aback and left stumbling by the surprise truths you were oblivious of before, you are now trying to divert attention away from the subject. Honestly, why wouldn't you be upset instead about the wool that has been pulled over your eyes by people like Julia Gillard? Who is the bigger fool, yourself and the sheep-like soldiers who believed the Labor myth, or 'Progressives' like Julia Gillard who now resides in a $2million bungalow and enjoys the best golden handshake for any politician the world over?

One long term poster stated that she had no idea that the Fabians even existed. Yet the senior Labor figures she supported and practically draws her reason for living from have been talking up the ideology of political 'Progressivism' for years. What was she voting on? Must have been emotion, because any rational adult would look deeper than the spin.

Belly was shocked and disappointed by the revelations. But how could he be when so many senior Labor figures, including the sly and superficial Bill Shorten have been beavering away for years shortening (heh, heh) up Labor values and installing Fabianism instead? Any wonder there was always a poor match between what the Labor leaders espoused to members and their decisions/policy in office.

Another thing, why hasn't the publicly-funded national broadcaster, the ABC, ever produced a 'fact paper' or done any expose on this? They have had years to do it, but no-one including the smug Tony Jones (Q&A) has ever wrinkled a brow about it. Simply amazing!

Belly,

The 'Progressives' who have a monkey grip on Labor are far too smart, smarmy and devious for the ordinary people who make up membership of unions and Labor to deal with.

With respect, you yourself are easily manipulated on this site by anyone who would flatter you, but are manipulating you along 'Progressive' policies instead. Fat lot they care about your unions and Labor, except to manipulate them towards the end they want, which is global control through International Socialism. The reality is that 'Progressives' always presume to know what is best for you and that justifies their totalitarianism. It is why they will never permit Labor members to elect leaders, except for the sham polling they introduced. Clever!

The Fabians are serious when they say they are the 'Wolves in Sheep's Clothing' and you are an easy dupe - all it takes is to give you Abbott instead as your 'enemy'. You prefer not to think, for the soldiers, thinking hurts. They much prefer mantras and glib assurances. Whereas Abbott is far closer to traditional Labor values than sly poseurs like Gillard and Shorten and the political 'Progressives' know that.

I will never even consider talking to you rant on!

Verbal diarrhea that says nothing, does nothing, and could have been several hundred words shorter. Try taking a breath sometimes, it can do wonders.

579 Gday.
You are too kind.
Your description flatters those words they are much worse than that.
I unlike some try to keep it honest even stalking the filth we talk about for years not just this thread.
But truly find just a few true ranters no better than those I target in this thread.
See both thrive on lies and tend to use big men short on brains .
The thought Labor remains even socialist despite what its rules say is self insulting, every one knows we live in land owned not long ago by the Liberals if the child like charges had any truth Liberals once would have been Fabians!
Let us both remain calm and ignore trolls

I've read a very interesting article recently
most of which I've posted on Shadow Minister's
thread on the CFMEU. I think part of it is
relevant here so I'm going to cite from it.

The commentator poses an interesting question:

"Why is the Coalition such an eager instigator of
royal commission witch hunts?"

The given reply provides a great deal of insight:

'Such commissions represent a 'win-win' for conservative
governments. There doesn't need to be any wrong-doing for
the labour movement to be forced to direct time, money,
and organisational resources into defending their unions,
their volunteer delegates, and their leaders. And such a
distraction couldn't come at a better time, with the
Coalition planning to impose an aggressive austerity
program on working people, to dismantle Medicare, and to
resume their attack on workers' rights." (Here's -
WorkChoices).

"A wide and extensive inquiry might also somehow cast doubts on
the Federal Labor Opposition through its union links."

Here's the irony.

We're told that "corrupt practices occur in Australian unions on
a lesser scale than those that take place across other
institutions in Australia, such as sporting clubs, charities,
governments, and political parties. Serious corruption
tends to follow the circuits of money and power. The union does
not represent the rich and powerful. What goes on behind
those closed doors is something about which most Australians
know little - but you can be assured that a Coalition Government
would never subject these elite interests to the investigative
intrusions of a Royal Commission."

But of course we're told that Mr Abbott's
Royal Commission is not about corruption.
"It is purely political strategy."
And that "every bit of mud - true or not will be thrown."

Good afternoon to you FOXY...

I hope you're well, and life's been treating you well also !

I've read your latest thread concerning some of the reasons why conservative governments seek these royal commissions ? I should first preface, I'm a Liberal voter, have been, and always will be. That said, I do agree with many of those who believe the PM is simply throwing away too much money, on another Royal Commission, this time on the activities of the CFMEU ?

As I mentioned earlier, a special squad of AFP, headed by an imminent QC or SC with powers of compellability, would do it, and do it well, with a far less cost to the Taxpayer. And to ensure it's not just a political witch hunt, the enquiry itself should be held in 'camera' until a positive finding is made. This way, there is no wilful destruction of people's reputation, until proved.

There's no doubt, there are some Union officials, who need to be investigated, and thoroughly.

What do you think FOXY ?

Beach, failed to answer a single question. Then has the temerity and presumptuousness to speak for those on this forum, such as myself, who oppose his Joe Goebbels like extreme right propaganda, an unceasing monolog of "the evilness of the Labor Party" oh! "the evilness of the Labor Party" and like Goebbels no doubt believes that if you repeat the lie often enough others will begin to believe it.
Then Beach, you hold up as "evidence" a comedy interview between 2GB's resident loony Michael McLaren and the delusional nutty old fruitcake Amy McGrath. I must say it was at least good for a laugh, if nothing else.
May I be presumptuous and say, I believe from your posting you must be a slavish disciple of that nutty old fruitcake.
To say; "admitted as you have that were clueless, blissfully ignorant, about the takeover of Labor by the Fabians aka 'Progressives' aka International Socialists." How conceited can one get claiming such rubbish to be so, when no such admission on that score has been made by me, would you care to point out where I have made such an admission here or anywhere else. You, like your Dr Amy Fruitcake, make outlandish claims about other people, hers are along the lines of "they are communists, but they just wont admit it!" yours are putting words into other peoples mouths.
Unfortunately Beach, you come across on this forum, to me, as some kind of Chicken Little character, with starling, but unfounded claims.

Foxy/o sung wo/ Paul I am not afraid of the proposed Royal Cmmision.
Let me be totally honest it is needed, the claims we are hearing are quite true.
A boss in the industrial commission told a CFMEU plant who I had in court he was not telling the truth.
He made claims about me that are far from true, that commissioner said he had dealt with me for a decade and I just did not act like that.
At a mass meeting the next day CFMEU reported I had sold out to cut wages!
Yes having worked under the law work choices exposed us to I had a hard job serving some members.
But not every criminal on sites is a worker/union big firms pay big kick backs to gain contracts and most if not all site bosses are getting big kick backs.
In truth a culture that exposes its own filth is a result I see as a reward for unions after the RC but its past time this country stopped using public money for political gain.
I am sorry I commented on posts above but find it stunning as author of this and 100 threads like it it is thought I do not under stand the subject.
Or my own party .

Belly, I totally support you in your argument about dealing with union illegality. As you know how vocal I have been about Thomson and Williamson and their criminality when it came to the HSU. I think this is much larger and I have posted elsewhere my view, copied it below;

"The Abbott agenda on this is to do some political point scoring at a huge cost to the taxpayer. He and his government have no interest in the welfare of building industry workers. Because if they did they would be calling for a much broader inquire into the building industry in general. Inquiring into both the sleazy practices of unions and employers, with reference to the illegalities of developers and government. Here in NSW you have to question how come 98% of development gets the O'Farrell rubber stamp. I don't think things are much different in other conservative states like Newman Queensland. Grease the "right" palms and the blind eye will quickly be turned and the sky's the limit, literally."

On another subject, I note your not posting responses to our very own resident "Rasputin" and his Labor Party conspiracy. I'm still not convinced its not a gee up, its so far off the planet it might be. Anyway I think I have shot him down in a screaming heap, can't answer a question and "speaks in tongues" for all of us, amazing."

Paul1405,

Along with Belly and a couple of others, you were originally ignorant of the existence of the Fabians aka 'Progressives aka International Socialists. You had to Google. Nevertheless you denied any influence of the Fabians in Labor and of course there couldn't be any Fabian leaning ALP leaders. Remarkably, you have all been supporting Labor leaders who had a secret you were ignorant of, which was their allegiance to the Fabians, and in the case of Ms Gillard and her Left Labor womyn 'networking' mates, to the policies of the Emily's Listers as well.

Amazing how none of you ever picked up on any of that. You never noted the frequent use and emphasis on the word 'Progressive', which continues to be used often by key Labor figures, by Shorten too. Used often by some key ABC journos too, a coincidence no doubt.

It is all 'Progressive this and Progressive that' - 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink', say no more! However, despite your years of support of things far Left, for Labor and their looney side-kicks the treacherous Greens, not one of you ever twigged to the fabian influence in Labor! Honestly, don't any of you ever read any of that bumpf you link to and spout? Other posters could answer that question for you, because you do come up with very odd and conflicting opinions.

A case of the lights being 'on', but no-one at home? LOL

Paul1405, you claim to be matey with NSW Greens' political featherweight Shoebridge. One would think that he might know about the Fabians, but obviously not. The NSW Greens are self-preoccupied Watermelons though and are not that aware of what is happening in the real world.

Now, rather than admit your ignorance you are flailing about with ad hominem, diversions and continued denial. All despite the compelling evidence of Julia Gillard speaking in a video that was her idea (linked earlier, but given again below to help you remember). Here you go,

@ 0:45 and on
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhvuR05ZNUY

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/union-ties-hurting-labor-party-with-voters-reachtel-poll-finds-20140202-31v5h.html
The link highlights many truths.
One is the sheer insanity of thinking words of comfort will heal the wounds constant revelations like this threads subject bring.
The sheer ignorance of thinking containment can be done by sticking our heads in the sand.
And as no party ever has so many slings and arrows thrown at it from our past ,even things that never happened.
Here is the very guts of it, to continue to do the same things the same way and get it wrong is insanity.
Union heads must see great damage is being done to the ALP by their actions.
In doing that slumbering unions betray both their members and the ALP
Normal folk will think reform is now certain,after three plus of total betrayal of membership.
Not so! that filthy blanket thrown over the dirt solidarity is a bar to reform

Beach.
"you were originally ignorant of the existence of the Fabians aka 'Progressives aka International Socialists" Again speaking for me and speaking for others. The Fabian Society is as old as the hills, its an open society and basically anyone can join, but I'm not to sure if they would want you and Ms Fruitcake as members, but then you could have some comedy value, I may even be a member, as far a you know. However, I much prefer 'Politics in the Pub' and yes I am a member of a few orgs, clubs and a union, as is my partner, not just The Greens. When will you be answering my questions? I didn't listen to your Gillard youtube again, its boring, was that you asking the fab question? I always found Gillard talking so boring, now your Ms Fruitcake, on the other hand, she's a crack up.
So far I have treated your posts on this with mild amusement.

Beach, was that clunker asking Gillard the Fab question the same clunker, Andrew Middleton, who stood at 2010 election as a "climate septic" and got about 500 votes out of 87,000, hum should run on the Ms Marple 'Reds Under The Beds' Ticket and score even less votes.

Paul1405,

How could you, Belly, Foxy et al all be marching linked arm to arm to the same tune, hurling your Left invective at all comers as you go, but none of you twigged that the political 'Progressives' aka Fabians aka International Socialists had done a sly takeover of Labor years ago?

Then at elections there you were, pencil stub in hand voting 1 above the line for a Labor Party ruled by union thugs and 'Progressives'? Some combine both secondary agendas.

All the self-titled 'Progressives' ever had to do was continually wave someone like Abbott in front of you and as dutiful attack dogs you have always done the greyhound+rabbit thing and run off chasing. While all of the time the 'Progressives' in Labor - mainly the fake Left chard-quaffing-comfortably-off-types in the public service and academia, the educated middle class that swings Labor social policy - were bending you over and giving your Labor/Left values a solid rogering with the proverbial pineapple.

How could you never have realised? Now it is far too late.

It is interesting that one distinguishing feature of all of the Labor leaders, their advisers and the media commentators who identify as 'Progressives' is that they all know how to live. They all enjoy the good life of the millionaires and entrepreneurs they claim to spurn. Take ex-PMs like Hawke and Gillard for example. They came to the job with modest means but they suddenly became millionaires who enjoyed the high life and especially travelling abroad, rubbing shoulders with the big knobs and international celebrities. 'Progressives' are social butterflies it appears and enjoy the best hotels and champus. They like to be waited upon. How does that all work?

But you were oblivious to the takeover. Even while traditional Labor values and policy were being discarded. The angry takeover of Labor is complete. You lost and they don't mind rubbing it in with all of that 'Progressive' language. 'Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more' and you never woke to it. However the treacherous Greens who continually white-ant Labor would not mind at all.

Paul do you think you can ever convince this bloke to think other than that?
You know it is not so.
http://www.news.com.au/national/queensland/police-investigate-links-between-bikies-and-building-industry-after-union-officials-found-in-drug-ring/story-fnii5v6w-1226816233350
This link, posted by the unclean ALP/Union thug that I am is further evidence we need change.
Partly unknown to Joe and Jane average, the CFMEU and the QLD builder workers union are the two big unions in the construction industry.
Few know that, for the most part is building construction.
And that is the cash cow for unions intent on bribery and corruption.
Civil construction is mostly AWU but CFMEU has membership and once wanted it all.
I gave evidence at a Federal industrial relations inquiry in a 1990,s attempt by them to take our members, we won.
Remember while we all may have memory lapses to lie to prove a point would make me as bad as those I confront here all bent unions.
Here is the center of my concerns.
We need those who have never been union supporters/those who left us for life/those about to leave us /and those who in the future who we intend to recruit.
We need them to know, to see, us driving the grubs out in to the light of day.
And we need our internal forums to hum with true reform.
*Above all we need to say, and mean it, never ever again*

Unspoken in my post above but needed air is this fact.
Union fees are constantly rising.
And numbers are mostly falling.
Unions are in it deep here our very best union officials are constantly being poached
The company's they deal with as union officials are offering much more money and a very good salary pack so we lost our best some years.
Keeping them would be made harder if wages did not stay close to those they are offered, but can never be matched.
Some big construction firms give training grants to unions,without being asked.
Some ask for a fee unions write up the agreement saving cask on legal firms.
The way ahead should include in a reformed movement fees set for different levels of income, falls not rises some increase in members would result.
And cuts multi branches set up in days long gone and membership over twice today,s can not be justified.
So as funds dry up CFMEU type unions go out and hunt like hungry Wolves for bribes .
A PS last year in NSW the former head of this states CFMEU, a bloke who had a shirt praising Che Guevara fronted inquiry's in to half million dollar bribes, he won that but happy to report he failed to win an ALP senate seat good stuff!

Dear O Sung Wu,

Of course I am against corruption and it should
be investigated by the proper authorities. But that should
also include all the other institutions in Australia,
such as sporting clubs, charities, governments,
and political parties.

As stated previously, serious corruption tends to follow
the circuits of money and power. What goes on behind those
closed doors is something about which most Australians know
little - but you can be assured that a Coalition Government
would never subject these elite interests to the investigative
intrusions of a Royal Commission.

And again, as stated earlier Mr Abbott's Royal Commission is
not about corruption. It is purely political strategy and
every little bit of mud - true or not will be thrown.

Dear Belly,

Here's something you may find of some interest:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/royal-commission-into-unions-a-witchhunt-says-actu-20140129-31mv7.html

otb your link again proves how morally bankrupt the Fabians are. No wonder they defend corruption so readily and bankrupt a nation so quickly. The sleazy national broadcasters go ballistic at any sort of accountability to them despite their fat pay packets and free spread of lies and propaganda.

runner,

Agreed.

They are immoral and shameless in avoiding responsibility.

Chicken Little has now been joined by Chicken Even Littler and they are both chirping off the same song sheet. The "kiss of death to your argument"... is when Runner agrees with you.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/libs-the-winners-in-political-donations-20140203-31xb6.html
Thanks Foxy, this link puts to the test the rant that Labor gets too much support from unions.
The massive amounts the government got, from its self interested supporters surely nullifies that often missused charge.
Paul did you ever think you would see better from that lot?
I wanted to post a link basically talking about union numbers and the continuing internal debate about union control of the party.
A far bigger percentage of former union officers are in Australia's Parliaments than the percentage of Australians in unions.
Yep me a former official, but in the interests of both movements we need to talk about that.
It has to be remembered both groups must think about increasing the percentage who join/vote for them.
No progress will come from holding our breath and stamping our feet.
If we deny, or protect those who in the end betray us we are killing our right to claim we truly represent any one.
A balanced and honest talk about our recent decent in to this truly disgusting slime heap is needed or we except we do not care enough to act.
On this issue, against such a fool as Abbott our polling can and will fall if we are seen as not wanting to open our books not let this grubby union be investigated.

Dear Belly,

Did you happen to see 'Q and A' last night?
It was one of the best panel discussions ever
with a wide mix of opinions.

Barnaby Joyce - who's
now the Minister for Agriculture in the current government
spoke of the plight of the farmers,(brought tears to
my eyes), he spoke of what the ABC meant
to rural Australians, and how he hoped that SPC and the
Goulburn Valley would survive. Barnaby made sense for the
first time in ages.

As far as union corruption went - the
consensus seemed to be (and with which I fully agree)
that corruption investigations
should be left up to the proper authorities who are
equipped and trained to handle the job - and that is
law enforcement agencies such as the police. And
Instead of spending millions on Royal Commissions (with
little results of any consequence as has been the case
in the past) - that
money should be put to better use in giving help where it's
so desperately needed at the moment - like farmers and
the Goulburn Valley. As Ray Martin pointed out, once we lose
our food production in the Goulburn Valley, we'll never get
it back. And that will be a tragedy of major proportions.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/21255493/electoral-commission-probes-liberal-donation-by-tarcila-resources/
Foxy I did and the man has grown just in the time he has been in office.
I feel as bad as he does about the plight, even pre drought our farmers face daily and too for year after year.
I too understand, despite some saying it is not true we will need all the food and exports they can grow, that is reason enough to help them now.
Liberalism once too knew support was some times the only way to keep them producing.
My link, in my honest view, could have been one of at least one hundred, questioning Liberal ministers/members,in the last 12 months even talking about their removal by their party,s.
But silence greets any such truth.
I refuse to back away from this threads content, yes the blanket of solidarity is being thrown over the whole affair, by Labor and Unions.
Surely some one is bright enough to say end this! fix it! stop producing anti union/Labor headline for the other side.
By years end the NSW Parliamentary filth will again tell of true filth, no other word better describes them, in our ranks.
If we can not convince me, a lifetime lover how can we think we can con ordinary Australians who more each day believe the Murdock press an arm of the Australian Liberal Party?
Heads out off the sand mu Ostrich brothers.

Foxy, 'Q&A says....', 'Ray Martin says...'

You are defensive and clueless about the role and operation of Royal Commissions.

Corruption is endemic. This has been going on for donkey's years. This isn't the only union affected, remember Gallagher.

The public says enough is enough. Only the bent players have anything to fear. Why are you protecting them?

Dear Belly,

I shall leave you to continue to do what you feel
you must.

But just remember what I've cited earlier
from various sources on the web and that is-

"During the Howard years the Coalition established
the Cole Royal Commission into corruption in the
building and construction industry. The inquiry was
motivated by exactly the sort of allegations that
have come to light in recent days... despite spending
2 years and over $60 million - making it one of the
most expensive in Australian history the Cole inquiry did
not result in a single prosecution."

"... any time union misconduct rears its head, conservatives
are apt to leap on the allegations. However any balanced
analysis of trade unions in Australian public life suggests
that they aren't generally corrupt and that the majority of
union officials spend their time doing exactly what they're
meant to: representing their members."

I can understand and admire your integrity. It's a shame
that there's not more people like yourself on both sides
of politics. Finger-pointing at only a select group brings
to memory other scandals like the oil-for food kickbacks
with Iraq associated with the AWB -
which Mr Howard denied knowing anything about.
The same as Mr Murdoch did in defence of his newspaper staff-
in the London courts. Ah well, "the age old hatreds of
Australian politics ensure that trade unions will always be a
juicy target during periods of conservative governments."
Too bad they don't apply the same standards to their own
party's activities.

Belly should be a wake-up to the foxy little Greens line being pushed there. No surprise really when it is remembered that any RC into the CFMEU will embarrass the Greens. Didn't Adam Bandt receive hefty donations from the Victorian Branch of the CFMEU to win the seat of Melbourne?

As recent embarrassments to CEOs and companies have shown, any attempt to conceal or minimise a wrong will rebound and very badly too. In this case the good unions and union delegates are wise to support the RC.

Frankly it would be very surprising if the thousands of respectable hard-working union delegates and members didn't make every reasonable effort to separate themselves from the rogues and the sly politics and deals done behind closed doors that don't benefit union member or public alike.

Beach, your mob don't seem to have a problem taking the dosh from the big end of town, do they?. The corporate big wigs see it as money well spent, a quid in the Mad Monks pocket today, is repaid a thousand fold tomorrow, with plenty of favorable legislation coming their way.

What about that cool $580,000 Ros Packer threw into the Liberal Party coffers, that should win the Packer empire a few favors, not that they need them. Jamie is already cashing in at Barangaroo

http://www.smh.com.au/business/libs-the-winners-in-political-donations-20140203-31xb6.html

Paul,

I don't have a 'mob'. My interests are two-fold:

- first, protect our freedom especially freedom of speech from those who would curtail it (and have done so under the previous Labor/Greens government), and

- secondly, to get value for money from government expenditure of the taxes compulsorily taken from us. That necessitates transparency of decision-making, robust measures of performance and regular, independent audits.

However you are merely trying to divert attention away from the involvement of Adam Bandt and the Greens in the CFMEU scandal. The Greens really lost it when they allowed all of those Trotsykists and n'er-do-wells to convert an environmental party into the present hated Greens Watermelon Party. Thinly green outside but red the whole way through. Not Left as any old lefties would understand it, but lunatic fringe, barking mad and always treacherous. Gillard re-learned what was obvious to all but her.

Foxy my dear friend please understand I must take my own direction in this matter.
Unlike almost any one here, I once moved in that circle just out side the center of my movements.
And lived with the Cole Royal Commissions lies and waste.
I could write an essay of at least 100 pages about it,and no one could challenge the waste it was.
I think my stand is just and needed.
I will until I die, consider the explosion time and again, of bad/filthy actions of others harming the ALP a thing we must confront and stop.
Once we thought 42 percent of primary votes meant Labor was in trouble.
Only a mad man would not see here and former posts highlight why we struggle.
I hope to see ten thousand Bellys, folk who care for the union movement and ALP more than their own reputation.
The link is to highlight corruption is not confined to this country.
And to give me the opportunity to say in all truth the indefensible CFMEU is playing with penny,s in building construction.
Millions of dollars in government projects are stolen by top employees of EVERY construction company.

Some random truths.
CFMEU sent a few thugs, wearing full face masks, to the head of a construction company in Vic,s home!
Terrorizing his family, maybe those masks hid bikers or even worse, it is no way to deal.
I repeat, just goggle their NSW webpage, unless it is changed they proudly boast they are Australians only extremist union.
EBA Enterprise Bargaining Agreements largely they are replacing awards.
And both sides like them and want to continue using them.
I hope the day comes all will have them.
They see such as less sick time taken as some is paid out ,a bosses introduced thing to see less lost time.
RDO is doing that too hours worked remain, extra being worked each day to make RDO possible.
Above all remember as we are about to confront a war on wages/workers/unions the current lies about EBA s are just that.
Please Lexi, consider these words, Abbott takes to his war cabinet, not that he needs reason, to attack fair wages.
The horrible truth about the CFMEU Unions are not all like that, if for no other reason than defending the movement/ALP a stand must be taken Ostrich like head in sand will only work if we can get Joe and Jane average to put their fingers in their ears and head in the sand too!
There is the stark truth.
If we deceive ourselves we never can ignore the truth that most voters, not in to self deception will hold us to account.
Too Abbott,s war on workers needs a solid bullet proof ALP/UNION to fight him.

No,no,no Beach, you are behind the times. Down here at Watermelons HQ we replaced the Trotsykists with Stalinists, , or was it the other way round, people coming and going all the time, anyway it was a long time ago, hard to keep up. BUT! never mind, they all have been replaced by the Fabians, so said your very own Miss Marple. Just last evening a meeting of Comrade Leeski, Comrade Adamski and Meski voted anomalously ski two to one to replace the Fabians in the ranks with the Methodists, we would have replaced the rats in the ranks, but they are in the Labor Party. Beach, why don't you give Miss Marple the flick, it can't be much fun looking for all those imaginary reds under the beds, we do lots of fun stuff at Watermelon HQ, like....like....well we do lots of fun stuff, and also I will be able to call you Comrade Beachski. LOL.

Dear Belly,

Of course I understand and hear what you're saying.
And I respect your integrity, as I've told you previously.
Don't get me wrong - I'm all for investigating
corruption. But not with an expensive Royal Commission
that I feel won't achieve much except destroy the
union structure, which I believe is the current
government's aim.
Therefore - my concern is that this is not about couuption
at all but a long term aim towards the Australian union
structure.

I would hate to see Australia move in the
direction of the United States. In the 1980s in the
US there was an all-out assault on the American unions
and that lead not only to stagnation in wages but
also the living conditions of the "working class."
It also ultimately meant the shrinkage of the "middle class"
until currently it's looking like a new feudal age is
coming to that country, with all the extreme inequality
associated with that. So, I repeat I would hate to see
Australia move further in that direction.

Some are currently suggesting that unions use intimidation.
Where and how? The Labor Party kept much of the Workchoices
policy - including the limitations of union access to
workplaces

Foxy, "Some are currently suggesting that unions use intimidation. Where and how?"

What gall! You are constantly requiring what is already available and in the public domain to provided and re-proved again.

You are forever declaring that you are a 'librarian'. You have a habit of lecturing other posters on how to debate and you claim reliable 'independent sources'. So go for it yourself.

However you could just drop some key words like criminal, bikies, Greens (add political donations + CFMEU), unions and scandal into Google and *bingo*, your question will be answered by reports from more reliable, reputable news outlets.

Scrutiny is feared by scoundrels and not by the many good people who pay union dues and are the victims along with taxpayers. In fact, all citizens are harmed in some way by the disgraceful corruption that is endemic. Why didn't the previous 'Progressive' Labor/Greens government take action? Maybe the answer lies in following that 'Progressive' agenda instead of providing good government.

Anyhow, what is in it for you to run block for villains?

Foxy in all honestly Australian workers are now under attack and the fight will be long and hard.
Today,s press club speech then question answering has again reminded me of the sheer BRILLIANCE of Paul Howes a one day Prime Minister of this country.
I will never withdraw my claims his and that other BRILLIANT Bill Shorten in respect to their part in the controlling faction right, and its infamous acts 2010 till 2013, too recent grave damage done in SA soon to become Long term Liberal, can be added to the list.
He quite brilliantly put up a new accord type of opportunity for true ways to resolve this country,s never ending industrial warfare.
And in terms that under stood SOME wage deals are excessive and price workers out of a job.
He has convinced me a RC is needlessly wasteful and, as he said, and by the way boss of the CFMEU, Police should investigate the crimes .
Here I leave our future Prime Minister Howes.
He mentioned a who cares less attitude to out siders in relation to on going troubles in the ranks.
I see his view as Ostrich like and dedicate the thread to him.
*In the end if it looks criminal smells criminal it is perceived criminal it is criminal*!
Out job is to increase members constantly to do that we need to hear their voices and thoughts.
Not back our ever decreasing membership in to a shrinking corner shouting solidarity forever until we put out the last light.
Remember the idiotic comments some hold came from a smaller truth in our ranks truth can never be avoided oh if you area Liberal supporter its policy.
We in the Labor movement are better than that.

Dear Belly,

Isolated allegations of wrongdoing in one industry
should be investiagted by the police and should not be
used to justify a full-scale assault on the union
movement.

However as ACTU Secretary Dan Oliver points out
ever since the 2007 election campaign when the union
movement successfully campaigned on workers rights -

"From that day onwards Tony Abbott and now his government
have had the trade union movement in their sights
and they are determined to desempower the movement and
this will be one step, a way of trying to blemish the
reputation of the proud trade movement in this country
and drain their resources."

It seems that "first Tony Abbott will go after unions
then he'll come for people's rights at work."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/05/paul-howes-calls-for-end-to-industrial-relations-blood-sport
Foxy I understand your views.
But calling the History of the CFMEU a few random things is to deny not just truth but the evidence.
As hard as it is we the movements supporters must confront the truth.
HSU AWU storys greatly harmed Labor and contributed to our loss.
The shameful acts of the right 2010to2013 helped.
We just must not!
Be blind to decade after decade of CFMEU thug acts Foxy if we lack the guts to run a clean broom in our own back yard we deserve to be unelectable.
No cover up, clean up.
And in truth that clean up in unions is on the way curtsy of the ACTU and union heads around this country.
Once done we can rebuild on good foundations and only look back to remember why we must never let it happen again.

Dear Belly,

I bow to your expertise in this area.
With the previous reservations that I expressed.
I still believe that Mr Abbott and Co are not
interested in corruption - but have a bigger agenda.

Foxy sorry but while you will know my agreement with your view on Abbott is true I have other thoughts.

We have spent the years 2010 till now loading his rifles for him.
HSU NSW FILTH all that time eating away at the good name of trade unions the CFMEU as well but for three decades.
I want us to stop loading their guns and handing them to them.
Foxy, on readering recent spotlight on Child molesters even police, in our Church institutions has hurt me deeply.
I ask constantly do they believe in God,and why did they get away with it why did no one speak?
I refuse to be a bystander , to not speak, and ask did the HSU filth believe in workers rights?
Did the NSW Labor Parliamentary FILTH ever hold the ALP policy's at heart, did they believe in the ALP?
I speak out for those who dare not but want to.
For a better out come for workers not the scraps thrown at them by some.
Average unionist/workers want better than the CFMEU.
If there are no consequences in betraying the ALP.Union movement we are doomed

Dear Belly,

I agree that allegations of wrong doing should be
investigated by the police. I do not agree that
this should justify a full-scale assault on the
union movement.

See you on another thread.

Dear Belly,

I forgot to mention that I shall be taking a break
from this forum for a while (personal reasons).
I may or may not be back - however, it has been a
pleasure sharing cyberspace with you. Keep up the
good work.

Take care.

Take care Foxy, I'm sure we all wish you the very best, and will very much look forward to your return in due course.
Should you decide not to return, your balanced and caring contributions will be sorely missed.
God speed.

Peter.

http://www.news.com.au/national/labors-bill-shorten-says-awus-paul-howes-idea-of-a-government-and-union-compact-is-a-fantasy/story-fncynjr2-1226819244617
Foxy I hope you get on top of your troubles and hope too you return.
Life has thrown its share of brickbats at me and I found relief in the every day little things like a bird singing in my garden the very best to you.
The headline that comes with my link is deceptive, deliberately so, it tells the truth further down but try,s to say a rift exists between Howes and Shorten, in time under and ALP Government,such a reform to IR will come.

Paul Howes is practical and has big brass ones,

whereas,

Bill Shorten aka 'Whatever She Says', is superficial, populist and limp. His missus the GG's daughter will one day hand his metrosexual 'nads back to him if and when she says he can have them. That will not be sometimes soon - she knows he has a roving eye.

The important thing isn't whether Howes is completely right or not, but that he and the AWU he represents obviously believe that Billie Shorten isn't up to the task and is wasting everyone's time. Shorten either doesn't know when serious judgement and decisions are required (in lieu of his usual flakey puff stuff for the leftie peanut gallery), or, what is more likely, he just doesn't have what it takes to be leader.

Thanks folks for good contributions and letting me let of steam.
I refrain from further posts unless some commentator worth replying to comes.
Last thoughts?
bit stunned that gentle and nice lady Foxy may not return.
And not unexpected she thinks my attack thoughts went a bit too far, after all many if not most in my party think the same.
Yet I consider acceptance of the filth as an act of treason!
By the way Foxy began the post stater Dear in replying to posters a thing that has caught on here.
May we all remember her past targeting because she told us in a may be last post she was quite ill, and received the worst insulting trash talk reply I ever saw here go Foxy you good thing!

Belly,

Having introduced the subject of the chasm of difference between Little Billie Shorten and AWU boss Paul Howes who is one of the king-makers influencing the choice of Labor leadership, you can't just do the sand bucket and ostrich trick when it is obvious that Bill Shorten's frivolous negativity in rejecting all proposed by the government is rebounding on him.

Paul Howes knows that the excesses of the victim industries and of big unions, have bled the Aussies taxpayer white. They have never cared about the 'traditional' (Left slur word) vulnerable either, such as age pensioners and the working poor.

More importantly to Howes, it is not a public secret any more (though some OLO posters would prefer it was never mentioned!) that the closures of big businesses are following the trend of closures of small businesses.

Speaking of small businesses, everyone here would know of multiple small business closures in their local suburb alone over the six dark, regressive years of Gillard and Rudd. Not forgetting Greens leaders Bob Brown and Milne and the Greens Watermelons, who worked hard at creating both political and social divisions at the same time.

What odds are the Bookies giving on Paul Howes dislodging Little Billie Shorten?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/paul-howes-takes-position-that-should-have-been-bill-shortens/story-fni0fha6-1226821046741
A well put together and balanced story that seems to end this thread nicely.
And too to show my thoughts expressed here are far from unshared.
To win elections and to gain public trust, you must take the test of honesty as it comes .
For that reason if no other Abbott,s 12 month showcase will strengthen the trade union movement.
By forcing it to confront the need for long neglected change.

It returns the thread to the unlikelihood of Little Billie Shorten surviving when AWU boss Paul Howes, who was a Gillard supporter - as in 'we've got your back Julia' - is making the announcements that Shorten didn't have the wit nor the bottle to make. Previously, mother-in-law Quentin Bryce the Governor-General, also stepped in to give L'il Billie Shorten the heads-up and a few lines to follow.

Even Labor sympathiser Laurie Oakes can see that Shorten is damp squib. It is his article leader after all,

"Paul Howes takes position that should have been Bill Shorten's"

and later,

<And the way Howes chimed in at the National Press Club on Wednesday with an attack on union corruption and a call for the labour movement to "cut that cancer out" helped with one of Abbott's key aims: to wedge Opposition Leader Bill Shorten on the issue. There was nothing wrong with what Howes said. The problem was that Shorten had not said it - or rather, had not said it nearly as well.

Even some of Shorten's senior colleagues admitted privately they wished their leader had spoken out as strongly. Shorten has said "there should be zero tolerance for any criminal activity, be it in trade unions or corporate Australia".

But there was no passion in his statements, no urgency, no suggestion the labour movement and its leaders should be proactive.>

tbc

continued...

<..Yet Howes pulled out all stops.

"There are things that need to be said and said in the strongest possible terms," he told the Press Club. Any union official proved to be engaged in corrupt or criminal behaviour was "a traitor". The labour movement itself must lead the way in identifying dishonesty and taking action.

Howes spoke of the need to "crack down hard", adding that those who act dishonestly from within the union movement were "worse than any crook boss".

Howes also said: "The eternal truism of leadership is that you define the environment lest it define you." It was a telling line.

The criticism of Shorten is that, by not going in hard, he is allowing the labour movement - and, by extension, the Labor Party - to be defined by crooks and spivs in the unions and the Coalition's response to them.>
[taken from Belly's link above]

Howes is a dead man, make that dead metrosexual fish, walking.

Belly, although he's got the right name PAUL Howes is not my favourite Labor person. I see him as a sell out and a bit of an Uncle Tom, full of self interest. What is his game? Running his own agenda, not so much to call for reform, as rightly he should do so, but rather launch an indirect attack on Shorten with his statements. Indeed Abbott should "hardly believe his luck". There is no need for Howes to put the boot in, there are plenty on the other side ready, willing and able to do just that. Then again I must question, besides on hie own side, on what side does Howes sit.
On thing we must not lose sight of is, you can't have union corruption in this game, without corporate corruption as well. All needs investigation not just a politically motivated witch hunt of unions.

Paul you will know others may not.
AWU Australian Workers Union in the post war years and before, stood firmly against Communism.
It was well placed to become this country,s biggest right [within the party and union] union.
The left of reality named us Australia,s Worst Union,while their members sickened by leftist propaganda fled to join us.
In those industry's we could by law serve them, some are isolated and captive to silly law covering who may recruit who.
A Truth in politics and unionism, leftist workers/unionists/voters are a rare commodity.
At a mid work choices meeting in this states home of coal and such.
*Members in numbers over 100 threatened to leave unions, FOREVER,* if ever called comrades again.
Paul this too is truth we are of the past the future is with men like Howes, and if he finds his lost mojo Shorten.
I remain convinced workers in rural areas of this state have been priced out of jobs by a union without the understanding of the AWU
A boss must first be able to eat or workers too starve.
Look to the future not a fantasy past.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-10/union-officials-accused-of-taking-bribes-from-labour-hire-firm/5248242
I must sadly report the link tells the truth.
And explain the construction of building and such is no go area for more moderate unions.
BLF Plumbers union and CFMEU are the owners of such sites/unions with coversage.
I for years here have called for ACTU intervention in this area and the criminal elements leaching of workers who are in those unions.
We should have/could have done it our selves that is the union movement.
My constant warning blind obedience to that blind word solidarity was harming us.
Let no Labor voter/member challenge my love, mixed with despair of both movements.
We now face 12 months of sneering and too, know many even in our unions, think we covered this up.
Why must we fuel conservative fires by refusing to act internally against dirt bags who in truth share none of our caring for workers culture.
I have the deepest pain that folk with say Foxys views in this matter have forced a Royal Commission on a mission, to harm us more, on us.
Know those dirt bags running Labour hire are more than often ex union officials drawing up under paid conditions thieving from? the workers they once represented!

Honestly Belly, you never know who your friends are and you consistently gather snakes to your bosom as it were.

On the forum you take advice from treacherous Green Left and from bent 'Progressives'. Because they say they are your friends and flatter you occasionally.

Labor should never, ever, be beholden to the Greens. They have shown consistently that they do not share the same values and they will snatch the bat and belt you wih it repeatedly. Brown eyed Bob Brown used to give that sly smile and while pretending to reach out to Julia Gillard, was shoving pineapples up her rear end. He was far more corrosive to Labor through his treachery and deliberately ill-timed whiteanting than the LNP's open criticism that could be dealt with at face value.

As for the International Socialists aka Fabians aka 'Progressives' who have taken over Labor and used the whole organisation for their own agenda of global control by international Socialism, they too found it easy to direct your (speaking of you and other Labor supporters) attention at 'conservatives' and 'Abbott' while displacing you. Goodness knows how you all still fail to recognise what the corporate world would see every day as an angry takeover (of your Labor enterprise).

Paul Howes looks good because he has in his fingernail more of the traditional (the 'Progressives' use that word as a slur) values, concerns, remedies and direction of Labor than Little Willie Shorten would ever dream of. Shorten is another of the 'Progressives' who puts himself first all of the time. A weak man and highly ambitious, he is shown up as superficial and frivolous by Howes.

A question, does Little Willie Shorten ever have an idea that is his own, or is it always to be 'Whatever she says'? Perhaps his M-in-Law Quentin Bryce might take on the Labor leadership after she is done being GG. Little Willie Shorten marries well, but he is simply not there and not to be trusted when the hard yards have to be gained. More a skirt man to be watched, most men would say.

I came back to explain my self, and as a side ask both my detractors and supporters to review the silly charges above.
Then consider what our future here is if such, so clearly wrong barbs are used so often.
In naming Foxy I had in mind a few things I need to say, she is a great Lady and my friend.
She has over her years come to support Labor, I think.
But so very often takes to easy way around, even nice way, Labors troubles and in this thread that of Unions.
There is no easy way!
That is the group cuddle lets shout solidarity and do nothing way!
I DEMAND an end to trying to make criminal filth look like working class hero's.
And too both groups appoint a cleaner to take the rubbish out in the future not use the Murdock press/and Tory,s to do it to us! yes to not for!

Hi Foxy,

Like many other contributors, I've missed you over the past couple of weeks :( I hope you are okay ? Please take care and come back to us, OLO needs positive and generous contributors like you. And Lexi too ;)

Love,

Joe

Joe lets hope.
Foxy warned us she may not return and her health has not been good.
We need every Foxy we can get

This morning the polls have hit the ALP hard.
And Shorten has come up short already,after such a start the question must be asked.Can he lead Labors reform while so entrenched in the controlling right/union movement.
My words here saw some in both party and Unions damn me.
But the truth will not be hidden.
Without acceptance that some unions,some within others have let down both party and membership.
We could and should have lead the crowd in seeing them charged and convicted.
WE lacked the guts, not Howes but Shorten,to this point,looks a fool in his trying to be an Ostrich while the country see,with 20/20 vision the true filthy actions of some.
We now will get the Royal Commission,I welcome it,a faction within my party thinks voters are fools.
And the resulting damning evidence will force the reforms on us party and unions, who avoid at all costs, including the welfare of those we exist for.
It places its childlike chant solidarity forever as a protective shield between a very much aware and unhappy public and the filth it wants to hide.

Belly,
The unions or their bosses have been responsible for every industrial collapse in Australia over the past 20 years.
The worker should be able to work for whatever he can negotiate or have negotiated for him by competent labor managers not industrial onion thugs.

Chris Gaff just not true or even close.
Surely this thread shows my unhappy stance on the bad unions.
I am completely baffled by Shortens stand, ignoring my stated truth, voters have had enough.
Until the very real criminals doing great harm to workers, while working for unions go?
No defense yes Wran and Askin committed crimes against us all.
But unless unions confront their filth the movement dies.
Folk with your view do not know an honesty exists in the movement along side the true filth.
And no one should be surprised.
Sponsored by union solidarity all the public see is defense of the filth.

Why would they think any better.

Belly, some people have short memories. Remember back in 2000 when that political heavy Little Johnny Howard, bailed out his brother Stanley at National Textiles with taxpayers money, acted so Stan the Man wouldn't end up in the slammer!

Belly,
Wran and Askin were criminals. Askin belonged to the "East Coast Mafia" of Bolte, Askin and Peterson (Bjelke). They had a secret police force called the "SOD" squad made up of very 'willing' moronic prison guards and union thugs that carried out their political policing operations 'above the law'
I worked under many corrupt commissioners and premiers.
I once arrested Wran's daughter in possession of a kilo of pure Indonesian Hashish and by morning the charges and the evidence had disappeared.
Corruption is endemic and hopefully the RC will root some of it out.

chrisgaff I fully believe you knew most of it.
But I need to defend my views expressed here, from some who say I am pretending unions are clean? baffling that!
And from party stalwarts who think the Ostrich, burying our head in the sand is a policy.

Labor and the Unions are my life, it hurts to see idiots pretending both are not in need of a facelift.
The public has every right to think we are dirty if we defend those who are.
Hope Thomson gets 5 years but know he will not.

Lets read Bills recent form, his faction took Rudd out of office, put Gillard in.
Then snubbed its nose at public opinion, a full time hobby of Shortens, and had the biggest silent union campaign in my life.
Selling Shorten as leader, he once was that is he now?
Albo won our vote and has been pushed in to a cupboard, the right wants only its finger prints on the party.
Shorten fueled every e mail I got from true trade unionist men and women.
Asking why did he water down the truth.
They then most, said has he got some thing to hide?

We must consider the years of unions being dragged down by filth a by product of Labors contempt for reform and accountability.
The public already thinks like that and without a leader committed to us, not his faction always will.
I note the recent betrayal of the SA party by the right has put that state in Liberal hands.
Wake up party! it is our job to win voters not chase them away

Hi Belly,

If the Labor party is ever to take office again, it has to remember that it has to govern on behalf of all Australians, or at least most of them. Otherwise it can kiss it all goodbye.

Fewer than 20 % of workers are in unions these days, and I wouldn't mind betting that a huge proportion of those are professionals and public servants, teachers, nurses, social workers, local government professionals.

So there are a hell of a lot of people out there, workers, subbies, part-timers, fruit-pickers, people looking for work, single mothers, pensioners, etc., etc., who should be the 'natural' constituencies of the Labor Party. Do they get votes at annual conferences ? But they're there, and who will they vote for if Labor doesn't answer their aspirations ?

Australia's is a very diverse society, in terms of class, ethnicity, gender, location and skill/education. Unless the Labor Party can think beyond unionised labor, it's stuffed.

Cheers,

Joe

Ban the unions.
All they want is more money, which the boss has to fine
Less work which means less productivity and less revenue for the business.
More Superannuation, which the boss has to find.
Redundancy payments, what a load of crap
Bring in the foreign workers and see how quickly productivity increases and how willing they are to work.
There is no place in a modern society for stand over unionism.

Get rid of the clunkers in the NSW police force and bring in some real coppers from North Korea! Agree Chris?

Paul1405,
No, we need elected sheriffs and stare marshals like the mid-west where freeloading is a way of life. They even managed to remove words like corruption and graft from the dictionary so people would not be confused with goodness and fairness.
Actually we could use a few of those New Guinean coppers that really know what their guns are for.

Why should unions be allowed to directly or indirectly control the supply of labor? Especially where they could be operating unlawfully?

Union corruption is far from a new allegation. Six years of Labor with their Greens Watermelon sidekicks in tow have not managed to lay a glove on the offenders and there are criminal links, including OMG enforcers.

PM Julia Galah'd (Obama's pronunciation and close to the mark) had plenty of time and zest for her social, gender and class wars. Julia even stooped to sledge her opponent, a happily married father of two young women, as a 'misogynist', but she had no bottle to sort the union corruption allegations that were put before her. Odd that is. But then again maybe not, considering that Labor draws its leaders from union ranks and others of merit cannot get a leg in.

Joe/Chris/Paul I have had the bull by the horns most of my life.
I knew, not as much but knew about that East Coast Mafia, our past leaders!
And thought the way to fix my party,s troubles was to talk about its good sides.
Well I waited two decades of waiting, and saw the CRIMSON HELL! waiting bought on us.
The Obeid Terrigals and half my NSW party filth!
See I know now we lack the guts to clean up our own act, we put wheelan the wrecker in charge of the party he wrecked.
Paul, a mate of mine in need of a good political party to join, try,s the school yard kid thing , names and stuff.
But it is time the combined union/ALP movement looked at those we drove away and continue to drive away.
Loudmouth I feel was once our middle ground.
We can not correct the very left, we did as we needed to run away from them.
But who in the hell will run towards us if we sugar coat the current union filth campaign ?
We are not being smart, my party,s the best choice for my country is looking worm infested as it protects an ever diminishing union membership.
We can and should take the high moral ground and bring voters to us, FIRST STOP SEATS FOR EX UNION LARD HEADS.
And next report the filth to police if not will the last member to leave the building switch off the light that once shone on the hill?
Its a junk pile of hidden filth at present!

Translated: 'Sweeping it under the carpet and doing the ostrich always worked before but now it has become public and curse Little Willie Shorten for over-playing his hand and challenging the government to 'Bring it on', and that *expletive* Abbott called the bluff'.

I can see embarrassment and anger that the carpet might be ripped back, but no real penitence for all of the skullduggery and abuses that have occurred over the year.

To be brutally frank Belly:

(1) If Labor and unions (supporters too!) could wave a magic wand to make this all secret squirrel again, they would do it in a heart-beat just carry on business as usual; and,

(2) Your real problem is that the public is now awake to (1) above; but,

(3) Labor and unions will anger the public even more by trying to discredit the Royal Commission and by rolling logs in front of it.

At some stage the unions and the 'Progressives' are likely join forces, and with the help of the Greens Watermelon Party, bury Labor. As far as the 'Progressives' are concerned, Labor must be nearing the end of its usefulness as an apparatus and source of contacts and money. Divert the union $$ to the Progressives and cut out the discredited middle man. The only hindrance to the 'Progressives' becoming a party in their own right is that the 'Progressives' by nature and choice like to parasitise another body.

Occupy the Democrats shell? LOL

OTB are you suffering from an illness?please stop referring to me in your mindless rants.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2562555/Labours-child-sex-apologists-How-three-partys-senior-figures-campaigned-vile-paedophile-group-probed-police-abusing-children-industrial-scale.html
Nothing could be more revolting to me than this link.
AND NO it is not off topic from England, and too long past, it reminds me the hidding such as this is currently a party policy.

Any observation of the former Secretary of a serving member, now rightly serving a gaol term in the seat of Swansea tells us we still hide our faults not fix them.
Solidarity? with who if not our own members supporters who is protecting who.

Belly,

OLO is a public site. You are a prolific poster who also commences a lot of threads, including this one. Good for you!

With respect, you cannot expect though that your opinion will rule. Although that seems to be the expectation of some of the long-term posters who presume to 'own' the site. Your opinions are subject to challenge and debate, and some gentle satire too.

What prevented union delegates and Labor Party organisers from raising suspected (and it now seems blatant) corruption during the six long years of Labor+Greens government and before? If any did take action, why didn't internal dispute procedures work, that is if any existed?

There is a parallel with the mess confronting the Catholic church, where there was knowledge of wrongdoing but it was concealed. The corruption of unions and Labor was of a different sort, but it was similarly concealed and thereby abetted by Union and Labor leaders. The public realise that.

It is however a truth I see you as a troll.
It is my view you quite deliberately go out of your way to disturb those you talk to.
I have witnessed both that, and of late a feeble effort to change your style.
I think few if any here put the boot in to my party/unions more than me, but your frothing at the mouth words contain nothing I want to read.
If here or any place you are free to say what you wish.
But you deny me the right to both ask you not to use me in your posts and not tell you ,your posts leave me with nothing but contempt for you something is badly wrong.
Know my thoughts will not change ever and too consider the host of others ignoring you, is it their fault or yours?
This is the last time I address you, please consider doing the same for me.

Belly,

It would be a wonderful world if you could tag&gag everyones who disagree with you, eh?

It is a public site and my questions are fair and reasonable.

I happen to agree with those who would have the Pope and hierarchy of the Catholic church held accountable for child abuse by its clergy. Similarly the State, government, in Australia has to be held accountable for (say) the abuse of wards of the State at the hands of its servants and people/organisations it should have been monitoring.

Private companies are held accountable for many things, an example being sexual harassment by employees, which may not even be on the work site but in social activities arranged by social clubs or between employees.

Why then is it 'trolling' to ask why Union and Labor leaders are not being held responsible for the corruption that has become endemic and often brutal? It is hypocrisy isn't it to have a different rule for Union and Labor bosses? What shouldn't they be held accountable for what happened under their watch?

My first sentence should have been,

"Belly,

It would be a wonderful world if you could tag&gag everyone who disagrees with you, eh?"

There in plan sight is the problem.
You clearly just do not understand much at all.
I can forgive that.
But you increasingly challenge the truth/facts.
YOU no other are being a troll, while I have no right to silence you I have every right to ask you to stop.
You here
In this thread throw my contempt for the Child molesters back at me.
Charged me in another with ignoring the sins of my side.
Then follow me here to troll me in the very thread that gives evidence I am not guilty as you charge.
You say things pretending an exclusive group here in OLO exist.
Then charge me with ignoring its reputation! for telling you not to troll me!
What are you doing for the site?
Who gave you the right to both give me a serve and a phantom nonexistent group?
Face it we will never see eye to eye I see that, why must you try to get the last word in?
And why have other victims of your inability to see others views too ignored you.
Because it is our right!
OTB your posts, the wording,the needless but persistent insults are in fact a mirror that shows you in detail.
You wish to be seen and heard and in posting in your style show your real life persona is unable to do that and it is harming you.
You must learn to live with it, I have no need to good by.

Belly,

Sorry, what 'insults' ? OTB seems to be raising legitimate questions, and doing so without any need to resort to invective. With respect, I don't think he is 'trolling'. There are very serious issues here which have to be teased out.

Cheers,

Joe