from this mornings media.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/multiculture-melting-pot-threatened-by-hardliners/story-fni0cwl5-1226780975363

Just look at the Middle East, Africa and Europe to see the results of cultural diversity. Violence between ethnic groups shows we are not immune and this comes as I await the first prosecutions for FGM in Aus. There has been evidence of forced marriages here as well as polygamy. Even events such as cock fighting and holding dog fights.

No, the way to community cohesion is to promote our own culture.

It is hoped the current government will officially do away with multiculturalism. Hard to believe there are some here that actually want more alien cultural practices and try to tell us it has advantages. Perhaps we can introduce bull fights and honour killings! Or burn unwanted wives with kero and stoning as punishment.

Banjo well put.
I agree even fear the truth in your post and thread.
Just posted a fine example of what mixing our culture with Islam has bought us here in just our country.
And found the need to ask our detractors what they think of the increasing insults to us these acts bring.
A question for every poster.
Is there ANY CHANCE the United Nations is trying to develop a one world, one people? no mater what the damage it brings?
If not why are we being told to live with folk who just want to live on our welfare but not with us.

yep the secularist insist all cultures are equal. Just try and find some young girls in indigeneous communities who have not been abused or a number of Arab men who respect women. Blind ignorance in the favour of doctrine has always been the secular humanist mantra as they hate the traditional western family unit.

Hi Banjo,

I'm not sure that what The Daily Telegraph tells you
is quite accurate. I would suggest
you do a bit of research and find out more about
what FECCA really hopes to achieve with their "Migration
Act" proposal. The Daily Telegraph has a history of
being pulled up for inaccurate reporting by media
watchdogs. That you can also Google.

As for your concerns about Multiculturalism?

According to the Department of Immigration's factsheets -
Multiculturalism in a descriptive sense, is simply a
term which describes the cultural and ethnic make-up
of contemporary Australia.

As a public policy,
Multiculturalism attempts to manage the consequences of
this diversity in the interests of the individual and
society as a whole. It plays no part in migrant selection.

Multiculturalism does of course have limits, as it should.
Here is a brief summary - (Taken from the Department's Fact-
Sheet) which may re-assure you somewhat:

1) Multicultural policies are based upon the premise
that all Australians should have an over-riding and
unifying commitment to Australia, it's interests,
and future, first and foremost.

2) Multicultural policies require all Australians to
accept the basic structures and principles of Australian
society, the Constitution, and the rule of law, tolerance
and equality, Parliamentary democracy, freedom of speech
and religion, English as the national language, and equality
of the sexes.

3) Multicultural policies impose obligations as well as
confirming rights. The right to express one's own culture
and beliefs (providing they do not break any Australian law)
and it involves a reciprocal responsibility to accept the
right of others to express their views and values (again
providing they don't break any Australian laws).

With carefully defined limits - I'm sure that
our country will be able to
work through whatever problems arise, despite what conservative
newspapers would have us believe to the contrary.

"""
Is there ANY CHANCE the United Nations is trying to develop a one world, one people? no mater what the damage it brings?
If not why are we being told to live with folk who just want to live on our welfare but not with us.
"""

You're beginning to see it, Belly? And when you consider the tactics being used to destroy the western worlds financial system so as to usher in a one world digital currency, which requires a world wide surveillance network. It's hard not think the NWO conspiracy is turning into reality.

Raw Mustard,
Six years ago "conspiracy nuts" were saying that social media was just a giant surveillance system, that anyone so inclined could use mobile phones and the cameras and microphones on computers to eavesdrop on private citizens, they warned people not to trust Google, Microsoft and Apple with any personal information and pointed out over and over again that Facebook is connected to and used extensively by the "five eyes" and Israel to gather personal information on ordinary people.

Belly, Banjo:
Here's an interesting perspective, are Right Wing "racists" being conned into fighting the Liberals battles for them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFWdx4gT0gQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UU6TJdRrZR_WacbxJWiRZ5_g

W.F. Price @ The Spearhead: http://www.the-spearhead.com/2013/08/...

Foxy,
Thanks for you thoughts and I did do a bit in relation to the author.

He is not a journo of the Tele, he occupies a research position for the Centre of Independent Studies. See another article by him below.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/female-genital-mutilation-and-forced-marriages-must-end-says-research-fellow-peter-kurti/story-fni0fit3-1226779801796

At best, I contend that multiculturalism here is a misnomer. We are multi-racial but there is not one other culture that we embrace. We tolerate some aspects of other cultures but not embrace them. The Kiwis are the closest to our culture but they are quick to point out how different they are.

There are some here who continually push the boundaries and our politicians let them get away with alien practices. Some people who support our brand of MC only see the nice aspects such as beer festivals, dragon parades and children on colourful costumes. they ignore the considerable baggage that comes with some cultures.

Some persons with alien cultural habits are now 3rd generation here and still maintain cultural practices from the old country.

The problem is that not only do we have to divert our resourses to counter this but if allowed to continue, after a time the proponents will claim we accept it and should make it allowable in our law. I suggest this could well happen with such aspects as FGM and polygamy.

We must draw a line in the sand and be emphatic about what is acceptable in Aus and what is not. All new comers to Aus are fully informed about our society when applying for a visa so there is no excuse about not knowing.

Dear Banjo,

I totally agree with you that we must be vigilant
regarding extremists from other cultures who refuse
to abide by our laws.

As the American lawyer David E. Springer once stated in his
concern over fidelity to the Western principles of law
and justice, expressing his concern with the process:

"At all times, vigilance is the price of liberty.
We must be vigilant... The measure of our society
over history is our fidelity to our principles.
We must remind our government and our people to
remain faithful to those principles or otherwise our
society, like so many in the past, will be swept on the
ash heap of history."

Yes, Jay Of Melbourne. I was one of them :~)
Have been a Debian user and contributor for the past 15 years.

Facebook, myspace, microsoft, twitter, google and others are all blocked outgoing and incoming on my firewall and have been for about 8 years! And I'm no friend of the cloud or CDN (Content Distrbution Networks) services either.
Not that there aren't many other ways to track and spy on people, but I don't make it easy for them :~)
I don't trust any of them.

What are your thoughts on Bitcoin? Friend or foe? I'm still undecided. Though I do see a great tool in crypto currencies in giving humanity back its liberty. Perhaps we should start a thread on it?

Back on topic, not that we were off topic. Multiculturalism has been the greatest distraction ever to hide what's going on in the real dark world of shadow government. What better way to use the peons. Get them fighting amongst themselves as everyone knew they would. The whole everyone in the world needs to unite and love each other is a crockabaloney. I get on fine with my neighbours, but I don't want them living in my house!

Raw Mustard,
I don't know much about Bitcoin bar the basics and the fact that some clever trousers has now figured out how to rob people of their Bitcoins.
I don't worry too much about net security, I want people to read the things I write and I was "outed" by so called "Anti Racists" years ago, they haven't come for me yet so I keep doing what I do.

The gist of that Aurini video is that Liberals broadly speaking are the weaklings of the world and that in order to thrive they have to get other people to do their dirty work. Liberals are just as disgusted and terrified by the bizarre customs and unreasoning hostility of people of other races, it's just that they can't defend themselves so they try to create "Racial Tensions" to weaken the tough, competent people in society so that they don't feel as threatened.
Notice that there's little to no fuss from Liberals over the VLAD laws in Queensalnd? That's because the laws target, for want of a better term "Alpha Males", tough guys who could pose a threat to the weaklings who run this "Melting Pot".
You'll remember the problems we had with Indian students a few years back? How did the Indians react? They fought back, in my area a Punjabi crew hunted down the Africans and Islanders who were harassing their friends and gave them a hiding, one was stabbed and another had his car torched.
Violence terrifies Liberals and "Anti Racists" because they're too weak to defend themselves and they know that "illiberals" and Right Wingers are wising up to the fact that they are better off siding with other tough, resolute people who hold similar views, whatever their ethnic background, look at the change of tactics by the EDL and Jobbik, who are now working with Muslims against Liberals.

Banjo,

"Some persons with alien cultural habits are now 3rd generation here and still maintain cultural practices from the old country"

I'm fifth generation and I've not embraced some cultural things, I prefer porter and stout to beer and if I must drink beer then let it be just below room temperature; I don't wear thongs either.

I also wear a kilt on occasion and speak Gaelic to friends and family who are also able to speak that alien British tongue.

Interesting, Jay Of Melbourne. You succinctly described something I've felt and discussed with my friends for a while. And it's easy to shut up the anti racists. Just ask them their opinion on open borders?

Ah but they're only a little bit racist :~)

PS: Those having their bitcoins stolen are liberals with no brain, they'd have the FRN's stolen just as easily :~)

Mise,
Thanks for pointing my error out. I should have used the term "alien cultural practices' I take it you don't practice any cultural habits that most here would consider alien, although our beer drinkers would question your treatment of the amber fluid.

Most immigrants integrate quite well but there are some groups that will not adapt in any manner and hold our laws and our society in contempt. I am sure I do not have to name some of these groups for your benefit. It is these few groups that we must take a far tougher line with.

I simply want a community where future generations can go wherever they want and not be worried about their safety because of their looks. We seem to be getting further away from that.

I do not want us to go the same path as the UK, which is not the UK that came through WW11. The London bombings and the killing of a UK soldier are stark reminders. The heckling and spitting on UK service personel on a 'welcome home' march was also an utter disgrace.

I do agree that all immigrants must adhere to Australia's laws if they want to stay here.
I'm sure they would be punished if they didn't, like everyone else.

I don't agree with refusing EVERYONE from one race, country, culture, or religious group....because that would be racism.

Suseonline, "I do agree that all immigrants must adhere to Australia's laws if they want to stay here. I'm sure they would be punished if they didn't, like everyone else"

Ho hum. More 'Never you mind', despite the huge pile of evidence of negative consequences.

How then did ritual slaughter become established, pray tell?

Now we all pay for Halal religious approval, and for rituals that are not only foreign to us in every sense but also cruel and offensive?

What about the blind eye turned by multiculturalism to aboriginal child sex molesting and child marriage? Gough Whitlam approved and encouraged these awful cultural 'traditions' to operate and bloom behind the black curtain of self-determination that shielded the perpetrators from the media and public gaze for decades, and also resulted in the alienation of children from available education and law that all Australian children should have by right.

Anyone who truly cares would never help to raise the curtain again.

Ritual slaughter?
Where in Australia is this done inhumanely then Onthebeach?
I'm sure the RSPCA would like to know.
Are our own animals all killed humanely then?

I believe the 'intervention' caught many Aboriginal paedophiles and they are locked up.
Do you know any who are atill abusing children then?
If so, you had better tell the police.

I do agree though that all the other cultures who 'invaded' the Aboriginal's country have certainly left many of them worse off...

Suseonline,

An predictable post from you, denying the obvious and giving no evidence to support your own opinion while while constantly demanding that others always provide sources with chapter and verse - which you then rudely declare that you don't take any notice of anyway!

Referring to the RSPCA, why wasn't it taking action on domestic ritual slaughter over all of those years? How didn't it know?

You would be aware from my posting history and your inane challenges that long before there was any interest from the ABC and others, I was talking about problems involving ritual slaughter domestically and questioning why the ABC and others were criticising practices affecting ritual slaughter in Indonesia but at the same time apparently turning a blind eye to non-compliance of ritual slaughter at home.

Referring to ritual slaughter, why is it permitted anyhow and why was our standard for slaughter modified to allow stunning that isn't immediately fatal? Which gives the lie to your claim (that I quoted in my earlier post).

As well, have you ever heard of boutique small works?

Aboriginal issues - don't you read reports?

Another reply wasted on you. However, others who are not out to score petty PC points such as yourself, namely people who are concerned about stopping cruelty wherever it occurs, be it affecting the welfare of young aboriginal mothers and their children, or livestock, will read and think about, which is good.

'A' not 'An' in my first sentence.

Wonder if my thoughts about the United Nations get a lift out of recent events?
They tell us they want us to stop smacking our kids!
When Dictatorship comes some will call it freedom.
UN seems unable to fix the starvation in Africa, the Mass Murdering in the middle east.
But finds time to interfere in our countrys parenting?

>>How then did ritual slaughter become established, pray tell?<<

The same way that vegan restaurants became established: there was a market for it. It's called capitalism - if you don't like it you're welcome to move to a communist country. I hear those places are awesome.

>>Referring to the RSPCA, why wasn't it taking action on domestic ritual slaughter over all of those years?<<

It probably feared the accusation of anti-semitism: schechita (kosher slaughter) is almost exactly the same as dhabihah (halal slaughter) - the actual method of killing is the same in both cases, essentially exsanguination via the jugular vein and carotid artery. The powerful Jewish lobby would be quick to label anybody trying to outlaw schechita as an anti-semite, a label that has held grave connotations since the Shoah. I think the RSPCA should take a stronger stance against ritual slaughter but I can see why they haven't.

>>Now we all pay for Halal religious approval<<

Not if we don't want to: there are very strict labelling laws for kosher and halal food - probably more for the benefit of the Jews and the Muslims: no vengeful god will strike me down if I buy the wrong sort of steak. But it has the added benefit of making it very easy for the discerning shopper to avoid inhumanely slaughtered meat. If you can't be bothered reading labels there is an easier way: change your diet. Pork is forbidden by halal and kosher diets so there aren't any ritually slaughtered pigs. And if you want red meat kangaroo is always game meat - you can't farm kangaroos and they aren't killed in slaughterhouses.

Kosher and halal approval are not paid for out of the public purse. They are a cost incurred by those sort of businesses who presumably pass it on to the consumer: if you're not a consumer of their products then you aren't contributing to their business costs.

Cheers,

Tony

Foxy,
Glad to see we can agree on some things. I liked your quote about vigilance being the price of liberty. This is why I am keen to see the laws enforced relating to FGM, forced marriages and polygamy. No prosecutions here or the UK for FGM, but France has had over a hundred and they only need a medical examination to convict the parents of the girls. I understand the rate of FGM has dropped in France greatly. countries like Aus should be able to eliminate it entirely. (almost)

Belly,
I share your misgivings about the UN. I wonder why we continue to support it, but maybe because there is nothing better. It certainly meeds reworking, at least.

"""
UN seems unable to fix the starvation in Africa, the Mass Murdering in the middle east.
But finds time to interfere in our countrys parenting?
"""

The Government seems unable to solve Australia's growing loss of industry and jobs, the massive theft of the peoples money via junkets (See OTB's thread below).

But finds time to interfere in our parenting and marriage preferences?

There fixed it for ya!

Dear Banjo,

I think if we were to sit down and talk about many
issues we'd find we had quite a great deal that we agree on.
I often think that what people post on forums like
this one is often misrepresented because of the way
things are expressed. Anyway, I'm glad you liked the
quote. And I also hope that the problems that you mentioned
will sort themselves out with enough public pressure.
You certainly are doing a good job by bringing these things
up for discussion.

Onthebeach, how predictable, yet another personal attack on others who don't agree with your constantly negative comments.

I was asking for proof from you about your claim that inhumane 'ritual' slaughter IS happening in Australia, but obviously you can't substantiate that.
Personally, I don't like any slaughter method used anywhere, so I am not one to go looking myself.

If people from cultures that ask for certain ways to prepare their meat as a religious preparation are accepted into Australia, then at least we can ensure that meat slaughter is done humanely here.

There is no point whinging and whining about that fact, because many of those people have been here for generations and are part of Australia now, so just deal with it and move on.

Aboriginal people have had to deal with the fact that Europeans have virtually taken over their culture and forced their own culture on Australia, so I am sure you can deal with ritually slaughtered meat for the few who require it...

People's opinion of multiculturalism is tainted by what TV channel they watch.
What many do not realise is that the ABC censors content to hide any
news item that denigrates any boat people or certain other migrants.
After the Afghan 30 yr old's attack on seven schoolgirls at Homebush
Olympic pool I watched the ABC on every news and current affairs
program to see if it got a mention.
Not a word. If you want to check this, just pick up a similar item
from another source and then watch the ABC.

There is definitely a censor at the ABC.
I have not been able to detect exactly what his rules are for
permitting the broadcasting of items, but it does include some
political anti labour news but does not seem to be consistent.

It is a game anyone can play.

Bazz, "There is definitely a censor at the ABC. I have not been able to detect exactly what his rules are for permitting the broadcasting of items, but it does include some political anti labour news but does not seem to be consistent."

Many would agree with you on that.

It is unacceptable that the ABC publicises a formal editorial policy that says one thing, but is silent on its informal editorial policy, that is apparently often at odds with the even-handedness (and accountability for it!) implied in its formal statement.

As I have said today in another thread I think linking concerns about Muslim migration, to our Multi Cultural country is fraud.
Muslim concerns are separate to decades of migration and should stay that way.
I know we had some rare problems, but to be honest nothing like the Islamic ones.
UN is no longer trying to follow its charter unless as is likely they follow one we never knew about.

Funny you should say that Bazz. How much are the ALPBC not telling the people?

http://pickeringpost.com/story/little-things-media-s-left-completely-missed/2482

Suseonline, "I was asking for proof from you about your claim that inhumane 'ritual' slaughter IS happening in Australia, but obviously you can't substantiate that"

Rubbish. I refer you to my previous post of Friday, 13 December 2013 1:59:41 AM. To repeat, our standards for human slaughter are modified and even forgotten for ritual slaughter. That is a policy and law fact. Those decisions are up to State and federal governments who are flexible.
Once again, that gives the lie to your claim (that I quoted in my earlier post).

I am not going to quote sites over and over for you. In previous threads I have referred to the federal standards and even linked to the RSPCA. You obviously haven't bothered to look. Or more likely you figure that requiring others to endlessly supply proof that you dismiss anyhow is a good game to play.

As has been pointed out to you and others many, many times before, humane slaughter requires prior,irreversible stunning. Cutting the luckless animal's throat and then trying to stun by reversible(!) technique so that the animal is actually killed by the knife was always unacceptable to beef farmers like my family and always will be. We care about the animals we raise. You don't. You put your cultural cringe first.

You have the front to say that because those religious fundamentalists who demand ritual slaughter might have lived here for years we should go along with what they want. You conveniently forget that they have been breaking the law all of that time, and their practices remain inhumane.

Again, another reply wasted on you. However, others who are not out to score petty PC points such as yourself, namely people who are concerned about stopping cruelty wherever it occurs, be it affecting the welfare of young aboriginal mothers and their children, or livestock, will read and know that others care just like them, which is good.

You know what's worse than a lefty OTB?
A feminist lefty ;~)

I've said it to your before. Remarkable patience LOL!

Rubbish Onthebeach!

You couldn't give a damn about the poor animals and the way they are slaughtered.
You are holding hands with the other racists on this site who hide behind such 'worries' as a front to their real anti-Muslim feelings.

I will say again...not all Muslims are the same, just like not all Christians or atheists are alike.
We can't just say a blanket NO to all followers of Islam from entering our country.
luckily, most intelligent people agree with me...feminist, lefty, blu-eyed, or not!

Tony Lavis "The same way that vegan restaurants became established: there was a market for it. It's called capitalism"

Well, there's a market for child porn too.
Do we just allow anything because there's a "market" for it?

How about cannibal restaurants?
There might be enough "demand" for a niche operator.
Let the Market decide.

Suseonline "Aboriginal people have had to deal with the fact that Europeans have virtually taken over their culture and forced their own culture on Australia"

Of course, when that happened to Aborigines you admit it was tragic, regrettable.
When our own people/culture is bulldozed away, tough titties!
Celebrate your nullification, honky!

"so I am sure you can deal with ritually slaughtered meat for the few who require it..."

So moral/ethical judgements are determined not by the act itself, but by the number of people involved.

Very few people make or consume child porn, so I guess that's okay too, Suse.

Peter Kurti (Banjo's linked article) is right to call official multiculturalism an "obsession" or "fetish".
Dewey classification 616.89 Mental disorders

We should be very aware of alien cultural practices and simply say that is not acceptable. If you practice that we will deport you and stop others like you from coming here.

We were warned of cultural conquest years ago and it has been ignored. Note the following.

Algerian president Houari Boumedienne "One day millions of men will leave Arabia to go to Europe. And they will not go there as friends. They will go there to conquer it. And they will conquer it with their sons. The wombs of our women will give us victory." Former President H B 1932--1978.

This man was a prophet, This is exactly what is now happening in Europe and the UK. It can happen here too.

Time for a reality check.

""
Aurini video
""
LOL! Jay Of Melbourne. This guys hates a smoke and a whiskey and a lefties ;~)

Suseonline, "You couldn't give a damn about the poor animals and the way they are slaughtered. You are holding hands with the other racists on this site who hide behind such 'worries' as a front to their real anti-Muslim feelings."

So according to you anyone who criticises ritual slaughter is a 'racist'? That is the sort of reply that is expected of you: insult, total fabrication and denial and all for your cultural cringe.

It is a matter of public record that I have consistently posted concerns. To add, the previous Labor/Greens government was found out for playing fast and loose with the truth concerning ritual slaughter practices in Australia.

It is interesting that while you are a constant and vehement critic of religion, that only extends to Christians.

No, I mention gods of any sort as a total fabrication of human minds and their fictional books Onthebeach, not just Christian gods.

It's just that this site attracts mainly Christian fundamentalists, rather than mad people from other religions.

I may be atheist, but I'm no racist, and I was raised to be tolerant of 'different' people to myself.
Cultural diversity is the spice of life.
Vive la difference!

>>Well, there's a market for child porn too.
Do we just allow anything because there's a "market" for it?

How about cannibal restaurants?
There might be enough "demand" for a niche operator.
Let the Market decide.<<

No Shockadelic, we don't allow those things because they are illegal. Cannibal restaurants and retail distribution of paedophilic pornography are clearly illegal and should be treated the same way as other forms of black market commerce like drug dealing and slave trading. I agree with you completely that an entirely free market unfettered by any governmental constraints is a recipe for wholesale immorality. Although I must say I'm very surprised to see you expressing such a distinctly left-wing sentiment: who are you and what have you done with the real Shockadelic?

Cheers,

Tony

Tony,
Not so,in areas with weak or nonexistent government you tend to see crime and vice contained in certain parts of the community, "Red Light Districts" and slums. Modernising states protect people from the consequences of their actions, especially bad people, notice that outlaws in 19th century Australia tended to die violent deaths in their early to mid 20's, Ned Kelly was 25, Ben Hall 28, Mad Dog Morgan made it to 35 and Jack Donahue 26. What's more every kind of vice is freely available anyway,state or no, Armin Miewes the Rotenburg Cannibal had several people contact him with a view to allowing him to cannibalise them and he eventually carried out his plan with a willing partner.
It's always the same excuse from statists, because of a very small number of very disturbed people we need top down social management and taxation for all.

Susie,
I am also an atheist and no racist.

I wonder just how far you are willing to let cultural diversity go.

There are some weird cultural practices in use around an I certainly do not want them here.

How about you list some you would not allow here. Or are you happy for 'anything goes'.

Suzi,

<<Cultural diversity is the spice of life>>

LOL

Multiculturalism has moved way beyond being a nice little condiment you might (choose to) add for a bit of flavoring. It is now a set recipe that requires all dishes to include the same ingredients.


I mentioned on another thread that a friend of mine recently went for a job with a govt department.The interviewing panel consisted of three persons who at the outset loudly announced themselves of as representatives of their multiculturally designated minority groups. They were very keen to know if he was of Aboriginal descent or spoke another language other than English at home.It became clear to my friend that unless he genuflected at the MC stations-of-the-cross he wasn't even going to get to first base.

One of the marketing ploys for MC is that it promotes diversity which encourages different solutions to problems But cultural diversity does not correlate with the ability to think innovatively or come up with novel solutions. And MC as it is practiced in Oz encourages superficial differentiation and groupism with same-ethicity groups networking to promote their own.

___________________________________________

Tony,

<<we don't allow ...Cannibal restaurants and retail distribution of paedophilic pornography [because they are] illegal>>

I was going to respond to that: WHAT A DILL!.
But, no, I wont write that 'cause it might be seen as offensive so I will just write LOL.

So what do we do if the Human Rights and (More)Equal (than some) Rights Commission (Germane Greer like) decrees tomorrow that it is improper or down-NON-right chauvinist --and evidence of our imperialist-orientalist-racist tendencies -- to even think of imposing our standards on the adherents of religion X?

Ah! Sorry to have bothered you Tony--I've got it!
The answer has come to me,all our police "service" will do is impose the law S-E-L-E-C-T-I-V-E-L-Y --as it often does now.

Cheers!

Some here do not seem to realise that the way moslems slaughter animals,
except for pointing them to Mecca, is similar to the way they were slaughtered
here and I presume in Europe generally.
The throat was cut and they were hung up to bleed out.

When stun guns became available they were then used.
Just like the eating of pig meat their slaughtering techniques are
still stuck in the middle ages.
Like many other Islamic practises they cannot and will not change.

I think Rechub will be able to confirm my understanding of slaughtering.

Suseonline misquotes the trite cliche, 'Variety is the spice of life'.

It is sloganeering in lieu of argument, facts and proof. It is the stuff of political correctness. That is typical for the left 'Progressives' whose hobby is social re-engineering. But they never imagine that there could be any negative consequences of their tampering. Nor do they want to know of any.

However where migrants are concerned, the UK's House of Lords Standing Committee that examined immigration could not find that the UK benefited overall economically from having immigrants. The truth is that migration is only good for migrants.

It is time that there was some honesty on migration and the pros and cons, and the electorate was given the choice of supporting diversity for the sake of diversity or not. It is not sufficient to claim that there are more choice in restaurants, even if that were only obtainable by bringing in the ethnic cooks, which it is not.

Certainly the public needs better information than the one-sided promotion by the ABC and SBS of endless diversity and overpopulation by migration. Value for money for the millions of taxpayers $$ poured into the publicly-funded national broadcasters should deliver independence and balance, not a re-hash of idealism from the online Green-Left newsletters, drafted in a fog of half-baked Marxism and weed.

We can do better than cliches.

This from a man who uses nothing but cliches,
("What's good for the goose..."), and consistently
refers to either "Marxism," or "Emily's List,"
or "Progressives," et cetera. Ah well, as we all know
foolish consistencies are the hobgoblin's of little
minds.

<Migration has brought 'zero' economic benefit

By Philip Johnston and Robert Winnett

Ten years of record immigration to Britain has produced virtually no economic benefits for the country, a parliamentary inquiry has found.
..
The findings of the Lords economics committee threaten to demolish the key argument made by ministers to justify the highest levels of immigration in the country's history.>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1583218/Migration-has-brought-zero-economic-benefit.html

<CHAPTER 3: IMPACTS ON THE LABOUR MARKET AND MACRO-ECONOMY

46. Given its widespread support and centrality in the Government's case for immigration, it is important to scrutinize the economic logic and available evidence underlying the claim that immigration creates significant economic benefits for the UK. This must begin with clarity about whose impacts the analysis should focus on and about what yardstick to use to measure the economic effects of immigration. Broadly speaking, international migration has economic and other consequences for three groups of people: residents in the migrant-receiving country, residents in the migrant-sending country, and migrants themselves.

47. The biggest beneficiaries from international migration are migrants themselves, as employment in higher-income countries enables them to earn higher wages and incomes than in their home countries. Immigrants' families and, in some cases, the economies of their countries of origin may also benefit. However, the economic impacts of emigration remain disputed, largely because the negative effects of the brain drain need to be balanced against the potentially beneficial effects of remittances.[32]

48. Immigration creates significant benefits for immigrants and their families, and, in some cases, also for immigrants' countries of origin.

......
69. Although possible in theory, we found no systematic empirical evidence to suggest that net immigration creates significant dynamic benefits for the resident population in the UK. This does not necessarily mean that such effects do not exist but that there is currently no systematic evidence for them and it is possible that there are also negative dynamic and wider welfare effects.>

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/8206.htm

Good morning Foxy and my regards.
I aviod the bloke, have been for some time.
It seems some cultures, even in our own ranks is in need of improvement.
Those who want no other culture here have left it too late to try.
We are a culture to be proud of.
But concerns about Islamic migration in to the west is a problem that will continue to grow.
And in time not far away be seen as a needless and trouble making event.

OTB,
I agree and demographers here have found the same thing. The migrants themselves are the main beneficeries ofhigh migration. Business and developers support high migration because it gives higher sales of consumer goods without them having to compete with each other.

Australian people are left to pick up the costs by way of extra infrastructure required, more traffic conjestion, delays in going to and from work, longer queues and higher house prices forcing first home buyers out of the market. High immigration means our standard of living keeps falling.

Another favourite quote of multiculturalists is 'Unity in diversity' which is utter garbage. Ethnic violence now in Aus is a fact of life. Even sunni and shia muslims don't get on, just look at the conflict here because of Syria. Croats and Serbs still fight each other and there is conflict between Sri Lankans. Refugees from Africa also have serious social problems.

The reason we don't get a say in immigration is simple . The major parties colluded not to publicly debate these issues and it is left up to the ruling party to decide, without debate from the opporsition.

Hi Belly,

I agree with you and Banjo.
Problems do indeed exist - and we must definitely
be vigilant to ensure that our country does not
go the way some others have done.
I am so glad that I live in Australia - especially from what
I see happening overseas and the madness that
appears on our TV screens.
Sticking to our laws is so imprtant as is ensuring that
all do the same that want to live in this country.

Some good points OTB

This angle is currently not much recognized: <<the negative effects of the brain drain [on the underdeveloped world]>>

But I predict it will come back to bite us big-time in the future.Just as now practically every interaction between the West and the rest if portrayed as exploitative. In the not too distant future -- when the likes of John Pilger, Sarah Hansen-Young, Suzi or Foxy cottons onto the political mileage that might be had from it --there will be one massive hue and cry that we robber the underdeveloped world of its best and brightest--and reparations are in order.

Banjo,
Yeah but there are physical and neurological differences between Liberals and Conservatives and given that all politicians are Liberals in this country we might reasonably conclude that the minds of Liberals are more suited to the dynamic environment of government and so they seek out positions in the public service.
As I said, the Liberal mind also makes people very weak and vulnerable because the majority of them can't sense danger or react to a threatening situation, what's more they don't seem to process experiences of violence or confrontation in the same way that we do.
I've been in situations with Liberal friends where I've seen things happen right before us that they haven't, like the time I saw a drug affected woman forcefully kick her little girl who then ran and hid under an A-frame sign outside a shop. The mother was lining her up for another kick until I and the shopkeeper yelled at her and ran to intervene, after the woman had grabbed the kid and run away I still had to explain to my friend what had happened literally right under her nose. So she saw it but was unable to understand what was going on, it's not the only time it's happened and when I'm out and about with other Liberal minded friends or relatives (which is most of my acquaintances) I'm always on alert because they tend to wander straight into potentially dangerous situations, especially if they've had a drink or three.
Similarly when Liberals do experience a confrontation or an attack they don't process it in the same way as we do, that's how it's possible for Amanda Kijera a White female aid worker who was raped in Haiti to pen this:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?178510-Liberal-Activist-Goes-to-Haiti-Gets-Raped-Blames-White-Men

Jay,

<<Liberal Activist Goes to Haiti - Gets Raped - Blames White Men>>

A version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

It is now a much used template:
-Uthman Badar on another thread [Criminalising solidarity with Syria] tells us that all the woes that afflict Mulsims are the doings of white men.
-Aboriginals activists --and their lefty allies --have been telling us for years that all the woes that afflict Aborigines are the doings of white men.
-And if you go to our universities many of the lectures will tell you the same.

Jay, this site being in Australia should use Liberals and conservatives
almost interchangeably. You have I think, been reading too many US sites.
There you can almost use lefties and liberals almost interchangeably.

Can we at least use semi standardised Australian terminology here ?

Bazz, a Liberal in 2013 is someone who believes that the primary function of the state is to make everyone equal, so all Australian politicians and intellectuals are Liberals. Tony Abbott, Warren Truss,Christine Milne and Bill Shorten all agree on a set of principles and adhere to the same ethical or moral framework, formal equality and equal opportunity for all.
Trotskyites and Anarcho Communists don't treat everyone equally, neither do groups like Golden Dawn, they're the real Leftists and Rightists, everyone else is a Liberal.
I disagree with your point about using "Australian" terms, those terms are obsolete as we now live in a world of global politics, Obama is a Liberal,so is Mitt Romney and so are Putin, Hollande, Cameron and all the others. If you don't accept the idea that all people are inherently equal and that where inequalities exist it's the job of the state to alleviate them then you're in the opposition camp, that's all there is to politics, Liberals and Anti Liberals.

>>So what do we do if the Human Rights and (More)Equal (than some) Rights Commission (Germane Greer like) decrees tomorrow that it is improper or down-NON-right chauvinist --and evidence of our imperialist-orientalist-racist tendencies -- to even think of imposing our standards on the adherents of religion X?<<

Move back home: out of the weird parallel universe where the Human Rights and Equal Inopportunities Comission have the power to pass Acts of Parliament and into a more familiar reality where only Parliament can pass acts of Parliament. Except there's no need to move because we're already here. Isn't that convenient?

If the Parliament enacts unfavourable changes to the law the first thing to do is wait till the next election and vote out the Government that passed such ridiculous laws. In both houses. The next step is to lobby the incoming Government to repeal the stupid laws. It's called parliamentary democracy. If you don't like it you're welcome to move to an autocratically governed country. I hear those places are awesome.

Expecting our noble constabulary to be derelict in their duty of enforcing the law is a grave impugnment of their character and a gross insult to the dignity and professionalism with which they fulfill a difficult duty. Poor form, eagle-man.

Cheers,

Tony

Tony,

<<Expecting our noble constabulary to be derelict in their duty of enforcing the law is a grave impugnment of their character and a gross insult to the dignity and professionalism with which they fulfill a difficult duty>>

You dont have to take my word for it (though my word should be enough!) I call as my first witness Dr Tanveer Ahmed
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/author.asp?id=2080

What do you say on this matter Mr Ahmed?
"I have seen such differences, however, when police are asked to intervene in domestic violence cases where ethnic groups such as South Asian or Middle Eastern couples are involved. Police often keep greater distance in such cases, some believing that cultural factors are at play and the families and communities should be left to their own devices. We do not officially have parallel laws for other groups, but variable enforcement can have the same effect."
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12700&page=0

Any further comment Mr Ahmed?
I would just like to add that SPQR is a very fine fellow.And he is 100% correct in his summation.

You may step down, thankyou Mr Ahmed.

Jay
I understand the point you are making and the very least you should
is use lower case l as in liberal as an adjective and Liberal as a proper noun.
At least that will be grammatically correct.
Never the less you will cause confusion.
However the term "liberal" has been captured by the American political
and media scene.

Foxy thanks I still want to understand how a group with a name like *the United Nations*, can fail so often.
They fail in Rwanda letting thousands die.
Intervened in the Balkans.
But do very little in Syria/and a host of suffering middle east country,s.
Do not do enough in south west Africa a place of reoccurring deaths by starvation, but find time to tell us not to smack our kids.

Dear Belly,

You've raised some valid points however we do need
to remember that the United Nations although it provides
a forum for world opinion and a mechanism for conflict
resolution a major difficulty is of course that compliance
with the resolutions and rulings of the United Nations is
voluntary, no country is willing to surrender its
sovereignty to an international body.

The United Nations is most effective, in fact, when the
superpowers are able to agree on a course of action and mobilize
their blocs to support it.

Even so, the organisation does provide an influential forum
for world opinion, and, while it does not always achieve
what we would like, it surely helps make things better.

Foxy & Belly,
Of course it is well to remember that the UN is a political body and
has the failings of political bodies.
Trade offs, unspoken agreements etc all complicate things.

It makes itself hard to accept it as an effective organisation when it
does things like appoint Libya as chair of a Human Rights committee.
That was a few years back as I remember and it caused a stir when it
criticised Australia on human rights.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/asio-cancels-humanitarian-aid-workers-passport-20131214-2zdy7.html
The link shows us the new Summer dress and talks of our sending our youth to tour the world much in the style of old Britain sending its youth on tours of Europe.
Hang on! no it does not, it tells us of the benefits in importing other cultures!

Yes indeed Belly,

<<[He] has been working in refugee camps>>

I just looouuuuve the way that whenever they are caught out they claim to be just innocent charity workers.

But the sad part is some --the Greens and activist lawyers -- would buy ever word of it

SPQR,
The "refugee" camps in Turkey and Lebanon are simply dual function military bases in the medieval style, the western backed rebels go back across the border to fight then return to rest, resupply and have their wounds treated. In days gone by armies would also have a large train of civilian camp followers and fortresses usually had a civilian population, so the cook, the doctor, the black market merchant who provides the cell phones and laptops, the mechanic who repairs the generators and motorbikes and the woman who does the laundry are all part of the army.

A quote from the link Belly gave;
The young men aged 18, 19 and 20, are angry at their treatment and say it is only because they are Muslim.

I wonder why that is ?
I mean who would have thought that ?
Dear oh dear what a shame, hmmm

<<The young men aged 18, 19 and 20, are angry at their treatment and say it is only because they are Muslim>>

That now has become the knee-jerk claim by any group that can't get all it wants: "we are unfairly profiled" "we are discriminated against".

Actually, I would say that Islam and Muslims are all too often presented in a misleadingly positive light, and excused.

I have recently come across a spate of programs/serials which see it as OK to present the Western security services in a poor light but will present even extreme Muslims as tricked into their violent ways by mischievous Westerners

Susie,
You said,"I do agree that all immigrants must adhere to Australia's laws if they want to stay here".
I agree with that, and you said, "I'm sure they would be punished if they didn't, like everyone else".
But they are not punished and the laws are not enforced. e.g. FGM and forced marriages. Do you think the laws should not be enforced because of cultural consideration?
Then you went on, "I don't agree with refusing EVERYONE from one race, country, culture, or religious group....because that would be racism".
If a group generally will not integrate why should we not refuse entry to that group? Why do you consider it racism to refuse entry on the grounds of culture or religion? You are changing the meaning of the word racism.

In a later post you said," I may be atheist, but I'm no racist, and I was raised to be tolerant of 'different' people to myself.
Cultural diversity is the spice of life.
Vive la difference"!

So again, I ask just what other cultural practices would you 'tolerate'? There are plenty of cultural practices that I think we generally would find abhorrent. Pedophillia and incest are examples that come to mind.

Suseonline is just saying , Never you mind' as leftie 'Progressives do and giving the big swerve to the issue of better screening of intending migrants.

Few object to the intake of properly selected migrants:

- those with the skills we do not have in adequate supply - not for example the federal government simply refusing to fund the training of Australian doctors and recruiting from South Africa and India instead;

- while ensuring that migrants are preferred from countries and groups that can be relied upon not to introduce cultural problems such as enduring tribal conflicts, and unspeakably offensive customs such as female genital mutilation.

It is a furphy that the second generation will drop such traditions and practices when they are taught in the home. The extreme multiculturalism policy of the 'Progressives' rolls logs in the path of police and other authorities seeking to enforce Australian law.

Then there are people like Suseonline, claimed 'do-gooders'(!), who assert that once the migrants are here the laws should be changed to suit them. Suseonline has already defended ritual slaughter on that basis. Australia already had existing law to ensure humane slaughter. Those regulations and Australian Standards should not be flexed to suit their medieval religious rituals. They knew the deal or ought to have known before they came here. But in any event, obey our laws, damn-it!

OTB,
The problem for the Aus population is that the issue is not just party political. Neither Labor or LNP do anything about it.

PM Hawke brokered the deal between Labor and the NLP and both parties have stuck to that. I am still hoping the current government will abolish multiculturalism but there is little hope of them cutting immigration or taking action to enforce our laws regarding alien cultural practices.

To me, and others, we see what is taking place overseas and, to avoid similar here, the answer is obvious. Stop importing those groups that will not integrate.

Banjo,

My concern is that we don't get a say. Why I am forced to direct the majority of my replies at the ones who are saying the most and represent the extreme of multicultural and diversity policy, I also criticise the 'other' side. If there can be an 'other' side in this such is complicity, and the ethnic tail wags the political dog.

Happy to agree with you anyhow and for all sorts of reasons. For example, it is exasperating that there are hundreds of young, well-trained building tradesmen in northern Europe who want to live in Australia, but the feckless federal government plays its 'non-discriminatory migration' game and brings coal to Newcastle by importing (say) computing and accounting people from Asia to make up the PC numbers for the 'diversity we have to have'. We already have heaps of accounting and IT graduates who can't find work, but competent building trades are in short supply, adding to the cost of housing, and sub-standard building to boot.

My second sentence above, 'why' should be 'while'.

It looks to me that the FECCA can see lots of lovely high paying gravy train seats being lost forever, if the federal government pulls the wheels of that train.

Hell with the global warming gravy train losing more wheels every day, what is a poor ethnic or academic supposed to do, if multiculturalism is derailed. Imagine the indignity, they might have to get a real job, at something they can do well.

How big are the road sweeping brooms these days?

Hasbeen yes Liberals are more likely to be harder on who comes here.
That is a simple truth.
And I believe in both truth and honest opinion.
SOME not near all, in my life's love, party will agree with us ,some want less intrusive migration that constantly questions us.
But think I am mad if you wish, *I truly think the UN is controlling world wide migration*
And that no Australian Government dare oppose them, yet.
I see my link bought good comment and warn that in the link another truth can be found.
The charge we are racist *when ever we confront one of these folk*
think about it.
What would you wish for if you had one wish for the world.
What damage would you be prepared to do to individual cultures if you could bread nationalism out of humanity?
When it comes some will call it freedom.

This is what's coming for White Australians, this is the real face of the "progressives" and their collaborators the "respectable conservatives".

Neil Phillips arrested, held for 8 hours over tasteless jokes posted on twitter about Nelson Mandela :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2520662/Neil-Phillips-quizzed-8-HOURS-police-Nelson-Mandela-Twitter-jokes.html
Jacqueline Woodhouse jailed for 21 weeks, 5 year ASBO for drunken tube rant:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18251807
Mentally ill woman Emma West dragged through courts, publicly humiliated over "My tram experience video":
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2336125/Emma-West-Mother-34-racist-rant-fellow-tram-passengers-horrified-million-YouTube-viewers-finally-admits-guilt-18-MONTHS.html
Liam Stacey given 56 day jail sentence for offensive tweet mocking deceased African soccer player:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57405599-71/british-man-jailed-for-racist-tweet/

How often do we hear Australian bureaucrats lauding the British and Canadian models of multiculturalism and is anyone aware of the numbers of former British civil servants working for our government?

Victorian bureaucrat facing questions over child protection scandal:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/10/07/victorian-bureaucrat-facing-questions-over-child-protection-scandal/
Some background on the Rotherham sex slavery rings:
http://standpointmag.co.uk/features-december-10-gangs-girls-and-grooming-the-truth-julie-bindel-asian-gangs-pimps-rotherham

Muslim councillor used his authority to hide his knowledge of UK Muslim sex-grooming of children and even knew the abusers:
http://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/08/23/muslim-councillor-used-his-authority-to-hide-his-knowledge-of-uk-sex-grooming-of-children-and-knew-the-abusers/

JOM, first have you caught something?
Do you truly think any one will wade through that list of links.
And believe me I am a progressive!
And too that hundreds of thousands of progressives stand with me.
In saying our culture is worth saving, enjoying the true multi culture most migration brings.
But both aware and concerned about the worst in Islamic infiltration of the west.
Its in some hands, open confrontation with OUR culture/way of life.
And thanks.
True thanks, in naming us progressive you let me highlight Tory,s and their camp followers are the opposite to progressives.

Belly, "And believe me I am a progressive"

You mean you are a Fabian Socialist. The mob who don't mind telling porkies to get what they want because words are just tools (yadda, yadda). To a Fabian Socialist, skilled political exponent Julia Whatshername was not lying at all, she was just doing what Fabian Socialists do best. Words (and promises!) mean whatever they want them to mean, and that can change too.

So no, the political 'Progressives' aren't really progressive at all, not 'progressive' in the Oxford dictionary sense, anyhow. They want the State to control everything and of course Fabian Socialists ('Progressives') always presume to know what is best for people. More along the lines of fascism if one wants to be more precise (and honest).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Fascism

No Belly, I don't see you as a "Progressive", I see you as a traditional Labour man.
That is what is wrong with the Labour Party at present.
It has been captured by the progressives.

It has as a result lost the plot.

It is not unrecoverable and I am sure there are many like yourself who will resurrect the Labour Party.

Dear Belly,

This may be of interest to you.
Peter Garrett once wrote these interesting
thoughts:

"The concept of the New Right is the politics of
money and power. It's the ideology of greed,
filled by an unbridled commitment to individualism.
It leaves no room for social equity, compassion or
the idea of an egalitarian society."

"The New Right believes that neither government nor
associations of working people (unions), should be
able to restrict the proper application of capital (money)
in the economy. People in their view, either sink or swim.
And if they sink, well that's too bad. Because according to
the New Right, welfare is not good for business."

"The New Right, it seems, often meets in secret.
They are pro America, pro nuclear weapons, pro the
monarchy, pro big business and pro development.
They are anti conservation, anti union, anti peace
movement, anti multiculturalism and anti government."

"One New Right vision for a future Australia depicts a
scene with mini-nations instead of states; a continent
without a federal parliament, without social welfare,
public health or education, without any co-ordination of
trade or economic policies. In their world business has
the right to get whatever it wants."

Of course you and I know that the only way in which the
country can work properly is for management and labour
to co-operate with one another, not condemn one another.
But the sad truth is that condemantion is the only
language that the New Right appears to understand.
Sad really.

Foxy,
Those writings of Garrett show just how stupid and ill informed the bloke is. If there were those with such agendas their numbers would fit in a phone box.

Dear Banjo,

Stupidity and ignorance is not the domain of any
one person.

There are those who
decry the New Right, there are those who decry
Fabian Socialists and Progressives and accuse
poor Belly a staunch union man of belonging to that
group. (sic). And our political conversations
do seem to be becoming blame sessions. Which is
unfortunate

Garret sure bushwhacked Anna Bligh when she was Premier of Queensland, with his back-flip to refuse the building of the Traveston Dam. Cynical federal short-term 'green' populism that forced Anna Blight into investing in the hugely expensive desalination plant that had environmental problems and has been a drain on State taxpayers ever since. It was the death knell for Anna Blight.

Bob Hawke acknowledged 'the debt of his government to the policies the Fabianism. Fabianism has long been the political religion of the elite, the educated middle class, often legally trained professionals and bureaucrats who are the movers and shakers of Labor's social policies, in particular. However the Fabians like to remain secretive about their beliefs. That 'poisonous' carbon dioxide that needed 'carbon tax' that in turn was largely handed over to the UN (Fabians love world government) is a good example of Fabianism driving certain, many, of Labor's leaders.

Here is Julia Whatshername trying her damnest to twist around and finally duck a simple question regarding her membership of the Fabian Society and the effect of Fabian ideology on her policies, in this case the carbon tax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhvuR05ZNUY

I would hope that the older Labor stalwarts like Belly will some day see through the sly manipulations of the Fabians and Emily's Listers. They have destroyed what Labor was and they have no interest in what the rank and file want. There is not much the rank and file can do about the Fabian aka 'Progressives' though because they have a 'Monkey's Grip' on Labor. They are doing very well out of Labor, as well, as evidenced by the the Labor leaders who start off with modest means but become millionaires, almost overnight.

Foxy thanks but let us not fumble for reasons to make uniformed commentators look informed.
I am a progressive ALP is Australia,s only progressive party.
I am so proud of the evolving change and true reforms being made.
*At the hands of rank and file not power brokers*
Nothing can stop us now movement in the Branches is insisting on it.
As never before, we are being assisted by Tony Abbott and his hardly Liberal group of supporters.
They have introduced a sense of quite despair in to their true Liberal members minds.
I do not claim sainthood for my team, will be unsettled forever at those [many more than some think] who hid or worked on behalf of the NSW FILTH Terrigals,an insult to any party and every voter.
But we stand in awe of that but will see much the same from at least one current Liberal government.
I hope, truly some one will step up from their ranks and call it like it is.

Dear Belly,

I admire your principles and integrity.
In all the time that I've known you,
you've always been fair and have tried to
see things from different points of view.
We don't always agree but I respect you
because you respect the rights of others
to hold opinions different to your own.

Take care.

Belly old mate I don't think you're mad, in fact I agree completely that the UN wants to control immigration. That is just another way of bringing down the west.

Where I can see that you & Foxy are wrong is in your belief that your party is resisting the UN in that. The academics, feminists, light greens & all those lawyers you have as leaders don't give a damn who their subjects are, [& I use that word in it's full meaning] as long as they subjects. All they want is to rule, & if that means a Muslim country, they don't give a damn.

I can not see how anyone can really believe that ball of slime Rudd ever had any interest in workers, or the rest of us peasants. We were his offering to the UN, to be hogtied with a carbon tax & as poor as any African nation. Your much loved Turnbull was either in league with Rudd & in full agreement, [probable] or just too dumb to see what Rudd was up to, so went along

I don't know why you won't go with Abbott. He is proving to be much closer to a true labor leader in fact, than any leader you have elected in many years. It has me a little worried about him at present

This must be a game of 'Lets pretend that Leftism is Progressivism aka Fabianism. Best to encourage Belly not to think, eh Foxy? Put a lid on this fast, eh what?

Best not to deconstruct Fabianism/'Progressivism'. Lift the blanket and goodness knows what might run out.

Left is an alternative to what the self-interested, educated middle class clique of 'Progressives'/Fabians have been up to. Ye gods, just look at the 'Progressives'' failed experiments in social re-engineering. Look at education for examples, there are plenty. It will be a very long cold day in Hell before any of the smug, constantly interfering 'Progressives' ever 'fess up to their stuff-ups. Hey, they always KNOW what is best for people so they don't feel obliged to ask. So much for democracy.

It is chalk and cheese comparing ex-PM Julia Whatshername, Wong, Plibersek, Shorten and Co with the original Lefies. It is now all, "Me, me, me" and "Show me the money". Tacky self-interested careerists riding populist wagons.

There you have it folks from our resident
expert on Fabianism (I had to look it up),
Socialism, Marxism, Emily's List, Feminism
Middle-Class Elitism, and all the other isms
that rule his world. He knows what he's talking
about and he's even psychic (or is it psycho?),
because he can read minds and knows what others
are thinking, people he's never met.
Truly amazing! Read and learn!

Foxy,

Ex-PM Julia Whatshername says she is a member of the Fabian Society and Julia never lies.

The Fabian Society shield depicts the wolf hiding in the skin of a sheep.

A red wolf? Possibly, if it was into the home hair dye challenge.

otb,

I don't believe you.
You're making things up again.
Why you don't even know her last name
and call unashamedly show your ignorance by
calling her "whatshername." How can we trust
anything you say. A man who knows so little?
As for hair dye? Look no further than the
current PM - who really should go and at least
have it done professionally. His home job is not
a good look.

Julia Whatshername who never lies being interviewed by Tony Jones, Lateline:

http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/05/julia-gillard-remained-actively-involved-in-the-socialist-forumfabian-society-after-her-departure-fr.html

Reportedly, she claimed an Economics Degree too.

otb,

I am pleased to see that you've done your own research
and learned that over 20 years ago, back when she was
a young uni student our former Prime Minister had
a clerical position for a debating society. She did clerical
and admin. work for them. I'm glad you got that all sorted.
Thanks for the link confirming it all.

As for an economics degree. Yes, she majored in economics
as part of her Bachelor of Arts degree. She also studied
law and completed that degree as well. She even offered to
lend her old economics textbooks to Mr Pyne
at one stage when he was having difficulty understanding the
subject in Parliament.

I wonder whether having the economics degree helped Gillard to justify the economic vandalism of this nation. She really needed a degree in ethics to counter her 'naivity' and extremely poor judgement in life.

Ah, the milk of Christian kindness speaks
yet again! And on ethics too. I guess you
wouldn't see the irony in that. ;-)

yes Foxy and you the defender of the highly 'éthical' emily's listers. What a surprise!

Foxy, "As for an economics degree. Yes, she majored in economics
as part of her Bachelor of Arts degree. She also studied
law and completed that degree as well"

Very foxy! Does she have a B Econ or not? If so please cite university and year awarded. If she has a B Econ as claimed, why isn't in her CV?

Majoring in a subject is not the same as completing a degree.

Next, the wolf in sheep's clothing (sheep skin to be exact),
http://www.restoreaustralia.org.au/fabians-and-pm-gillard/

Specifically, which bits do you say are wrong and why?

I will until death continue to be confronted by the God runner serves, or tells us he does.
In my Christian days Christ was warning against miss using his name.
He told us about love not hate forgiveness and threw the money lenders out of his fathers Church.
Sorry runner but your bitter confronting posts confirm my reason for leaving the faith.

This bit:

>>the wolf in sheep's clothing (sheep skin to be exact)<<

The logo of the Australian Fabians is somewhat stylised but I would have to say that it looks more like a turtle than anything else. See for yourself:

https://fbcdn-profile-a.akamaihd.net/hprofile-ak-frc1/c1.0.93.93/155314_184698688210529_2515155_s.jpg

It is a very creative interpretation that can get 'a wolf in sheep's clothing' from that image. Onthebeach, when you look at Rorschach inkblots do you just see a bunch of pictures of like these?

http://www.bideford.devon.sch.uk/history/history_images/anti_communism.jpg

http://www.northernsun.com/images/imagelarge/Bathroom-Bolshevik-Poster-%284004%29.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eUyeD0A2GNM/UE9U2UM9_GI/AAAAAAAAC2Q/w37ok9vhyU8/s640/Commies-Under-Bed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wft5MM5SDCM/TTMBoKEy7iI/AAAAAAAAE24/9w3ypcWzMhA/s1600/barack_obama_communist_propaganda_poster-p228939571446271460trma_400.jpg

What do you think that might be telling you?

Cheers,

Tony

Tony Lavis,

I would say you have been cherry-picking in your Google 'research' if you have not examined the origins of Fabianism and the meaning of the wolf in sheep's clothing, as represented by the black wolf with the skin of the sheep it has slaughtered draped over it for camouflage.

The turtle represents it is said the creeping, relentless introduction of socialism. Done by sly means and stealth, creeping socialism was seen as the obvious choice after violent socialist revolution proved unlikely (socialists still do not understand why not, LOL). It is impossible for the Fabians aka 'Progressives' to imagine that most people in a free society want just that, to be free to make their own choices and not be controlled in all areas of their life by the State and the Fabians/'Progressives'.

Here you go, there is even a group of good citizens dedicated to maintaining the security of the ballot and ballot box against the sneaky frauds by those you seem to support and form the examples given one can easily see why they are so concerned,

http://www.wolvesinsheepsclothing.com.au/

http://www.hschapman.org/

Without doubt, many who have fled to Australia to escape State control of their lives would advise you and Foxy against Statism and the socialists in particular.

Any wonder the 'Progressives' have been beavering away relentlessly to achieve State regulation of homosexual relationships and they have succeeded with the extension to gays of the common law marriage definition previously affecting heterosexual de facto relationships, with the final bit still to come. Now gays too have the State and its bureaucrats regulating their personal affairs and choices too.

You should be careful what you wish for. Remember the socialists' references to 'Useful Idiots'. You might agree with them that people are 'Sheeple' who cannot be relied upon to make the right choices and need to be regulated by the State. But then the socialists are thinking of you too.

otb,

Please wait, I'll get back to you
when I feel so inclined to answer you about
all your socialistic and Fabian concerns.
In the meantime - relax and take it easy.
This country will continue to do fine.
Afterall aren't our ministers tough.
Telling off GMH and China in the same week.

cont'd ...

BTW:

All degrees have subject majors in a field chosen
by the student to specialize - especially in a
Bacholor of Arts. That means that an individual
specialising in a selected subject can be proficient
in that subject. It doesn't mean that they work in that
field. The former Prime Minister chose the subject of
Law as her profession, but majored in economics to be
proficient in economics - which helped her in her
political career.

Foxy said;
The former Prime Minister chose the subject of
Law as her profession, but majored in economics to be
proficient in economics - which helped her in her
political career.

Arrrgggghhh, I nearly choked on my morning coffee when I read that !

Foxy is ducking and dodging, indulging in semantics.

Replying to Tony Jones on ABC Lateline on 17 October, 2007, the (then) 46 yr old Julia (no slip of a girl) is quoted as saying,

<JULIA GILLARD: Tony, it's been a fair old journey since my 20s. Yes, you know in the years in between, what have I done? I completed my law degree, I completed my economics degree.>

A link was given earlier and for ease of reference here it is again,
http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2013/05/julia-gillard-remained-actively-involved-in-the-socialist-forumfabian-society-after-her-departure-fr.html

The questions to Foxy remain unanswered,
"Does she have a B Econ or not? If so please cite university and year awarded. If she has a B Econ as claimed, why isn't in her CV?"

Dear Bazz,

Sorry to hear about your coffee.
I know how important coffee is,
especially in the morning.

otb,

I have answered your question.
However, I'm not interested in trying
to work on your percpetions.
They're beyond my control.

Like every thread we ever contributed to this one has wobbly legs.
It wanders from subject to subject and in truth few of us care.
I however want to ask a question again.
Have other posters noticed recently the UN getting more involved than it did in the past.
I am both pleased and confused at the intervention in to Syria.
Most of us know just how bad the refugee problem is in adjoining states made all the worse for snow and unheard of in recent times cold winter *in that part of the world*
They have a task ahead and seem never to have under taken such a task before.
Great, if they have answers for the War too all wars for that matter.
Maybe if they fail cultural diversity may be forced in massive numbers on us all.

Belly,

As Peter Hitchens observed during his recent bushwhacking compered by ABC's Tony Jones, we have already lost the culture war.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s3868791.htm

It is too late now to realise what you have lost for yourself and your grandchildren. You have already lost it. The prevailing and systemic political correctness was displayed in all of its 'glory' on Tony Jones' show, even down to the awful Germaine Greer scoffing and casting doubt on a Rhodes Scholar, just because she disagree with him.

It was an unedifying show of little merit, only remarkable for the boasting arrogance and shameless political correctness and extremism of some of the guests. As Hitchens said, the culture war has been won already by Greer, Savage et al and they can no longer claim victimhood. Rather as they so ably demonstrated on the show, they are now the ruling class, the persecutors in fact.

The astute Charlton Heston had it right so many years ago,

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/charltonhestonculturalwar.htm

Belly,
Since the entire Islamic world is pouring men, guns and cash into Syria the refugees can be the responsibility of rich Muslims thanks.

OTB,
"We" haven't lost anything, "they" are losing, the older generation are going to be in for a big shock when my kids' generation learn that they are going to be expected to pay for all these disasters. I've told my kids already that their generation are under no obligation to support their Gen X parents, let alone grandma and grandpa. Grandma and Grandpa are going to spend their last days in poetic justice being tortured, starved and raped by their Third World immigrant carers while my generation will be working until we're seventy five or eighty.
A declaration of War:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYJB-wjrGsM