I remember what I was doing when John Fitzgerald Kennedy was assassinated - it was the marker of a generation that you could. I'll remember what I was doing when Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela died as well, and maybe that will also become the marker of a generation.

Mandela is a secular saint, and perhaps one could also delete "secular". He represents for me the way forward in human relations. Unlike many who have been oppressed, he showed that forgiveness, not punishment or retribution, is the way forward.

But was he always so? As the leader of a terrorist organisation in a way he was caught up in the cycle of vengeance. What part did 27 years in jail (biologically probably the best of his life) play in the man that Mandela ultimately became?

Mandela speaks to us as a country which has some of the same race and colonisation issues that South Africa has, and also as individuals.

I'm interested in what others here him saying to them, or us.

Mandela..is dead..now what?
what mean's dead?
so what?

[no..really..a man..is dead..!
do we talk..of the..man..and ignore the bigger picture?

WHAT..is dead?

[energy cannot/be created..NOR destroyed]..

science only ONCE..has studied..dead..by weighing
the..'dying'..at the moment of 'death'..

a weight..loss..WAS found..
[in..4 out of/the six..only..science/allowed]..

[it was allowed repeating..[with..wild-dogs..
not domesticated dogs ..who..too have souls.

anyhow nelson_madela is 'dead'
but his life spirit lives on....or is the essential-life energy..ALL..gone?

if it..dont live-on
where has..it gone?

thus..my take..is he lives-on
[as we all must]..

jessus said/..'let the dead..tend the dead'
what does that mean..WHAT MEANS..dead?

SO..nelson..is listening..THE QUESTION..being..read.

what would you say..of him..?
what..can you add to..that..NOW*...so/many...think..its..dead?

if you got proof..that..dead is dead?

lets hear it..nelson..isnt dead..refute?
lets have it said..nelson..mandela..aint dead[am..i in denial?]

by what proof?
what are your own..questions?
what are you really afraid of..[was he a bright light..or a terrorist?

nelson..madela..its judgment day*
or is it..who..measures greatness?
what does greatness reveal/conceal?

The Mandela Myth.
Over the past 20 years, Nelson Mandela has become nothing less than a global saint. South African writer and activist Dan Roodt joins Colin, Andy, and Richard to discuss the true story behind Mandela's rise to power and fame, as well as what Mandela's imminent death might mean for the increasingly dysfunctional South African society.
http://vanguardradio.net/podcast/2013/7/2/the-mandela-myth.

Internationalist and Anglican Bishop Trevor Huddleston, promoter of the Mandela Myth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Huddleston
The real Nelson Mandela, a spiv lawyer at heart with a taste for the good life:
http://en.mediamass.net/people/nelson-mandela/highest-paid.html
ANC war crimes, secret prison camps, torture,endemic rapes of female activists etc:
http://www.disa.ukzn.ac.za/webpages/DC/slapr93.3/slapr93.3.pdf
How many blacks died under apartheid?
http://iluvsa.blogspot.com.au/2011/06/how-many-blacks-died-under-apartheid.html?m=1

My point is that Mandela is no more deserving of the accolade "hero" than Kobe Bryant, Tupac Shakur, Lucky Dube or Michael Jordan, in fact Black athletes and artists probably do more to bring hope of a better life to young Africans than Mandela ever did.
A real South African hero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMSeQINkKJE

anyhow..grayham..there comes a moment..in..time..when
greatness is chosen..we see now..one peace maker..who earned..his peace

the key moment..was when..'somehow'..guns were brought-in
and some planed to/murder..i..think/it was indians
anyhow mandela refuted the wisperings of demons
and chose peace..and became..in..that moment..the peacemaker

[or so it has been reported]
also reported..was the way..people been..planning for this KEY*-day
you will no doudt..be in a rush..just as media shuts down

anyhow..if EVER peace/maker will come
its during the winter of our discontent
we will..emerge this darkest of winters..into global peace

expect miracles this xmass
or else watch the wierd things from the gulags..of THE WoRLD

lest we forget..we refined..this colonisation/thing
gulags..[the peace maker...no..but watch the glory..yet

COULD SO EASILy..HAVE FIXED palestein
no..the real..peacemaker..is yet to come..[he likely awaits ina gulag

nelson..shoulda helped free him..in gulag palistein
just watch-out..for the karma..

we aint seen the true
GLOBAL..*peacemaker..yet*

but we soon..must*
[or else..welcome,next-year..in,to hell]

media distracts us..dont believe the spin/they sell
thats when..evil/does its really..vile....they want/to
bring on their idea/of..heaven..on earth..by unholy birth..this month.

or rather fiinish..their change
by new years day..it will...either be..for the elite..orr the imprisoned

indeedd as jesus said
set the victimless criminals free*

Apologies, the mediamass article is fake, I didn't check it properly before posting, it has accurate information at the start then obviously the last paragraphs are just silly, just the same, Mandela a lifelong communist managed to amass a $30 million fortune and his family are all extremely wealthy:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2519040/Nelson-Mandela-death-How-family-war-10m-fortune.html

Great song, Jay of Melbourne. Hadn't seen these guys before, thanks.

But I think the point GrahamY was leading us to, was whether the Mandela history is of significance to the "man he became".

We can all judge for ourselves the modern history part - the man was indeed very significant in giving black South Africa a valid voice, and was subsequently very even-handed when it came to laying - or sidestepping - blame for their history. One can only speculate how South Africa's present would have played out without his moderating influence at key junctures.

My own view is that he learned a great deal while in prison, and was able to employ the wisdom he acquired in fashioning a post-apartheid world. However fragile the political and social environment still may be, the alternatives could have been substantially worse.

Much, I guess, as Solzhenitsyn's eight years in a gulag influenced his views on Stalinism, and how freedom of thought could be the ultimate downfall of the Soviet system. Neither he nor Mandela had 20:20 vision on how the new systems could be perfected, but they both had a significant clue as to how improvements on the old could be brought about.

Another Communist Terrorist Leader Dies:
http://johngaltfla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/SACP_POSTER.jpg

Good riddance to bad rubbish.
I'm sure the families of the white S.A farmers he caused the massacre of won't miss him!

Pericles,
I don't get angry often but this issue boils my blood and Lucky Dube is the real emblem of Mandela's legacy, a man who created such beauty and who honestly tried to unite people shot down in an everyday explosion of mindless African violence.
As Rawmustard and others will no doubt point out the butcher's bill of the "Rainbow Nation" totally eclipses the bad old days of White rule, if you've got a strong stomach follow this link and observe how monstrously cruel the so called "Farm Murders" are:
http://www.thetruthaboutsouthafrica.com/p/white-genocide-in-south-africa.html
White "Bleeding hearts" who approve of Mandela are also condoning Black terrorists wrapping a three month old White baby in newspaper and setting her alight in front of her parents, that's the truth of the matter.
And lest the cry of "Racist" be uttered those same bleeding hearts can google the name Annene Booysen because none are spared.
Mandela, Mbeki, Zuma and all are monsters, their followers are sadists and psychopaths, the only good Commie is a dead Commie, that's all there is to say.

usually a man can be judged by the children he produces.

in/his own..words
http://theconversation.com/mandela-spirit-of-rolihlahla-the-one-who-shook-the-tree-15490

Nelson Mandela’s African name../*Rolihlahla*\..means
the one..who shakes/the tree,..the one who unsettles/the status quo.

*/'..It was only when all else..had failed,
when..all channels..of peaceful protest..had been barred..to us,
that..the [DEMOCRATIC}..decision/was made..to embark on..violent forms of political struggle,..and to form Um-khonto we Siz*we.

We did so not/because we desired..such a course,
but solely/because the government..had left us/with no other choice.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

/*Only free-men..can negotiate;
prisoners..cannot enter into contracts.*\
[un-informed/connect/no-meeting/of..mind]]

../*'Your freedom..and mine cannot be separated.*\..

*..equality before..the law',[..in so far..as \
it is..intended/to apply to us]..is meaningless..and misleading.

*..All the rights..and privileges..to which I have referred are monopolized..by whites,..and we enjoy none of them.

*.The white man/makes all the laws,..he drags us/
before his courts and accuses us,..and he sits in judgment over us\*..

[then/jails-us/separates..fathers..from/mothers/children..from society

..*in its proper meaning..equality before the law/..means..the right to participate..in../*the making*\..of the laws..*by which..one is governed,\*

../*.a constitution which guarantees..democratic rights
to all sections.of the population, t..he right to approach the court for..*protection..or..*relief..[in the case of/the violation of rights..*guaranteed in/the constitution]\*.,

*/These countless..human beings,..both inside and outside our country,..had the nobility of spirit..to stand..in the path of tyranny..and injustice,..\*

/*..without seeking selfish gain.*\..

[but..then..the same personality..TYPE*
became the NEW/*elite*]

../*They recognized that..an injury to one..is an injury..*to all
and therefore..ALL*..acted together..in defense*..of justice a..nd a common human decency.*\.

*..We trust/that you..will continue..to stand by us
as we tackle..the challenges/of building peace,..prosperity, non-sexism,..non-racialism and democracy.>>

[and/yes..a FEW..got..VERY/very..very..rich*
doing..the same..colonizations/oppression..globally..by figure-head]

*..The time..for/the healing..of the..wounds has come.

*..The moment..to bridge/the chasms..that divide/us..has come.

/*.The time.to build..is upon us.*\

*..We succeeded..to take/our..last steps,,into freedom
in conditions..of relative peace...We commit ourselves..to the construction..of a complete,..just..and lasting peace.*

/*Because..of their courage..and persistence
for many years,..we can,..her/today/together,..even set
the dates..when all humanity..will join..*together..to celebrate
but/one..of the outstanding..of..manifest/humane victories of our century.*\.

“Saint” Mandela? Not So Fast!
http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/15888-saint-mandela-not-so-fast

Thamsanqua Linda:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/15835-mayor-linda-versus-mandela
Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangosuthu_Buthelezi

jay's going to like this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swdtg5YLx_Q

but we arnt..measured..by..our past
its about the fruit..[would more be dead..if he hadnt sought peace

the more standard..report/from..pbs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnGeMBNS9ZA

how to..sort..the myth..from..the man?

now his name means respect*.

A mandala is...
http://www.mandalaproject.org/What/Main.html
An integrated structure
organized around a
unifying center
Longchenpa

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=indian+mandala+meanings

http://www.artof4elements.com/entry/105/mandala-meaning
Mandala usually has an image
that inspires the Spiritual Growth and self development.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/mandala/
The word mandala itself is derived from the root manda, which means essence, to which the suffix la, meaning container, has been added. Thus, one obvious connotation of mandala is that it is a container of essence.

http://www.whats-your-sign.com/animal-totems.html

As an image, a mandala may symbolize both the mind and the body of the Buddha. In esoteric Buddhism the principle in the mandala is the presence of the Buddha in it, but images of deities are not necessary. They may be presented either as a wheel, a tree, or a jewel, or in any other symbolic manifestation.
http://www.mitchellteachers.org/WorldHistory/IndiaUnit/CreatingMandalaHinduBeliefs.html

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/tantra/level1_getting_started/explanation_meaning_mandala_munich_/transcript.html

Now there’s a difference between a symbol and a representation – some mandalas are symbols and some are representations – so let me point that out. A symbol is something that the meaning of it is obvious to anybody who encounters it. You don’t really have to be told what it means,

who..is nelson/mandela..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YTikApRTko

“with our matches and our necklaces we will liberate this country”
-- Winnie Mandela

Nothing like burning people with petrol soaked tyres to earn you some respect, eh?

I guess if you were white living in South Africa
you would not have had the problems of - unarmed
black South Africans being massacred by police
forces. I imagine that being black and living under the conditions
of apartheid would have turned any peace-loving black man into
eventually seeing that protests and peaceful demonstrations
were not achieving much at all. Turning to violence would
have been a natural progression. And this would
end up of course with imprisonment.
Yet 27 years spent in jail - saw Mandela come out
of prison - not seeking revenge - but a multi-racial
democracy where both black and white could co-exist.
Forgiveness not revenge, was the order of the day.

Nelson Mandela was given the Nobel Peace Prize
and his leadership of the anti-apartheid movement and
stewardship of the new South Africa became an inspiration around
the world.

Mandela was known throughout South Africa as "Tata Madiba,"
an expression drawn from his Tribal name and also meaning -
"Father." This was how he was known to a generation of
South Africans who lived throughout the peaceful
transition from apartheid to multi-racial democracy.
This is how he shall be remembered by many.

Eternal rest grant to him, O Lord
And let perpetual light shine on him
May he rest in peace, Amen.

The world has lost one of the great leaders of the 20th century.
R.I.P Nelson Mandela.

Graham in all honesty this man and Gandhi by far are my view of the two greatest men.
In my life time in my opinion.
JFK death saw me grieving .
Nelsons was not unexpected but the reason I am late tonight in posting.Gandhi too left me in pain.
Vale the greatman

Nelson Mandela — 'You will achieve more in this world
through acts of mercy..than you will through acts of retribution.'

"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite." — Nelson Mandela (Long Walk to Freedom)

*Let there be justice for all. Let there be peace for all. Let there be work, bread, water and salt for all. Let each know that for each the body, the mind and the soul have been freed to fulfil themselves."

THE FAMOUS SPEECH THAT NELSON MANDELA NEVER GAVE...
http://gnosticwarrior.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/nelson-mandela.jpg

"...Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.*..

It is our light,
not our darkness..that most frightens us.

We ask ourselves,..Who am I to be
brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?

Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.
http://www.searchquotes.com/sof/images/picture_quotes/61448_20130307_070806_image.jpg

Your playing small does not serve the world.
There is nothing enlightened about shrinking..
so that other people won't feel insecure around you.


We are all meant to shine, as children do.
We were born to make manifest..the glory of God/that is within us.

It's not just in some of us;..it's in everyone.
And as we let..our own light shine,..we unconsciously give other people permission..to do the same.

As we are liberated..from our own fear,
our presence automatically liberates others."


This passage is commonly mis-attributed
to Nelson Mandela's 1994 Inaugural Address.

It actually comes from the book 'A Return To Love'
(1992) by Marianne Williamson

You must do the things..you think you cannot do. ~Eleanor Roosevelt

Descend down into thine own heart
and there read what thou art and what thou shalt be ~Jemima Wilkinson

Like most I never new Nelson Mandela, my knowledge of the man comes solely from reading and the media.
He may have been good to some and not so good to others but there is no doubt he was a man for the time in South Africa.
Most countries at various times will produce a Mandela, a person that stands out from the crowd, seemingly above the masses in thought and actions.
His elevation in South Africa came at a time where mediocrity in leaders was and still is the norm in the rest of the world hence his rise to fame world wide.
Australia can but hope that somewhere we have our Mandela, we desperately need to shed the current crop of mediocre self serving leaders that purport to have the interests of the country at heart.
Mandela obviously had faults, maybe large ones but he appears to have risen above these faults and demonstrated leadership rarely seen today.
SD

First sentence. For new read knew. Typo.
SD

Foxy that's a load of rubbish,how many "unarmed" black people were killed by the SA Police and Defence forces?
21,000 people died under apartheid, 92% of them were Black on Black killings, the killings attributed to the SA government also include battle casualties from the Koeverts and army incursions into neighbouring countries, some estimates put the death toll due to Police action in SA itself at 518. Now estimates
There's no such thing as an "unarmed" black protestor in South Africa, do these men look unarmed to you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rd7SJu0V4E

Here's that article again, 174,220 people died of violent deaths in SA between 1994 and 2000, between 1960 and 1990 there were 67 deaths in SA Police custody, in 2011-12 there were a staggering 932 deaths in custody.
http://thestringer.com.au/south-africas-tragic-deaths-in-custody-record-and-the-international-silence/#.UqGgCo0hY7Q

So here's your "White Privilege", note that poor Blacks are allowed in majority White squatter camps, if a White set foot in a Black area he'd be dead. Is this type of Apartheid OK with you?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFj0HdW2iDs

I've long been ambivalent about Mandela. I think the gist of the original post sums up quite well how I have resolved that ambivalence. His legacy must always take into account his history as a terrorist. While Foxy has a point, the victims of his terrorist organisation were not always the perpetrators of those atrocities. When one sees all white people as oppressors, as enemies, it is easier to rationalise indiscriminate violence against them.

Had Mandela died back then, he would have died a terrorist and rightly so. Regardless of his motives, his actions were wrong.

Mandela, to me, is a symbol of mankind's capacity for change. He is an example of a man whose youth was characterised by bloodlust and whose dotage was characterised by something very different. He BECAME a symbol of peace. Those editorial pieces that say things like "Mandela is, always was and always will be a beacon of light," etc. are incorrect. I think they also take away the real lesson we can learn from Mandela - that atonement may not always be available, but it is always possible to make a change - no matter how dark our past.

Gaol is where he should have been. For how long is another question.

There are many who emigrated to Australia to escape the violence and most left loved ones behind.

If prison teaches a terrorist 'maturity' as he himself now says, or at least curtails the dreadful decisions they might otherwise make, then the many who did not die or lose loved ones to such criminals would be thankful.

Where the public persona that serves others' agendas begins to part company with the man himself and what he did who knows. However I am not easily convinced that anyone who would commit acts of terrorism or direct others in the commission of such awful crimes ever changes his personality and motivation to offend similarly again. The threat and certainty of incarceration works, and if it doesn't then they leave in a box or too frail to carry out crimes.

If people can use a scrubbed image to moralise over so be it I guess, but all who do so have their own secondary agenda. He is not a hero. A tool, yes.

A few of the usual suspects here are acting as apologists for the brutal racists apartheid regime that operated in South Africa until 1994. Nelson Mandela who personally was treated shamefully by that insidious regime. On gaining power Mandela could have easily called on the majority to extract retribution on their minority oppressors and a blood bath would have insured. Nelson Mandela as a sign of his greatness, virtually singlehandedly prevented South Africa from descending into a state anarchy. The world rightly so is a mourning the lost of a truly remarkable human being.

p/s A true sign of greatness, is on your demise, to see a few sniveling cowards anonymously post detracting rubbish.

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=repentance+acim

Ho’oponopono: I am an ancient Hawaiian problem solving process

I am composed of three elements: repentance, forgiveness, and transmutation. I am a petition..initiated by the Conscious Mind to Divine Intelligence..to void memories to reestablish Self I-Dentity. I begin with the Conscious Mind.

Repentance: I am the beginning of the Ho’oponopono process initiated by the Conscious Mind as a petition to Divine Intelligence to transmute memories to Void. With me, the Conscious Mind acknowledges its responsibility for the memories replaying problems in its Subconscious Mind, having created, accepted, and accumulated them.

“I AM SORRY.”

Forgiveness: Along with Repentance, I am a petition from the Conscious Mind to Divine Creator to transform memories in the Subconscious Mind to Void. Not only is the Conscious Mind sorrowful, it is also asking Divine Intelligence for forgiveness.

“PLEASE FORGIVE ME.”

Transmutation: Divine Intelligence uses me to neutralize and to release memories to Void in the Subconscious Mind. I am available for use only by Divine Intelligence.

“THANK YOU.”

“I LOVE YOU.”

And, as I’ve already written, when “transmutation” occurs, you are at “zero” and miracles occur.

In closing, nothing speaks more to miracle creation (for me!) than A Course In Miracles (ACIM), which essentially tells us that it is our natural nature to create miracles, but our human error gets in our way.

That human error is fear, or expressions of fear, as opposed to love. In ACIM it speaks to the process of correction (like Ho’oponopono’s problem solving process), which contains these steps:

Know first that this is fear.

Fear arises from lack of love.

The only remedy for lack of love is perfect love.

Perfect love is the Atonement.

See the parallels?

May you send away your fear, and call up your perfect love.

May you see the miraculous being that you are, and always be miracle ready.

May you find your Self I-Dentity.

I’m sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you.

the process..is easy..[one example]
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

When they realised they could exploit Mandela they did & the rest is history.

For me a person who as a youth felt deeply the wrong done to South Africa its original people and all people *of color*
This thread has taken an unfortunate turn.
The Movie shown last night, about the Springboks and how Nelson made that team that once refused Black players, the team this then teen age kid protested about, and made it glue holding all South Africans together, was very true.
I hesitate to remind such as Jay of Melbourne and yes OUG, that thoughts expressed here are minority ones.
We by our willingness to chase phantoms, follow the side of politics we believe in, even in to a swamp, harms only us and truth.
To consider this man as he was not as he was sold to us would in the end remember the man as the one who stopped what was to be a blood bath and bought true Democracy to his country for the first time.
I warn far right far left and far lost politics will never gain power in this country and that we have seen some of that here posing as comment.

Jay of Melbourne,

What you consider a "load of rubbish" is actually
a very important historical event.
This is for your information:

In 1960 - in the black township of Sharpville,
near Johannesburg, South Africa,
Afrikaner police opened fire on a group of
unarmed black South African demonstrators killing 69 people
and wounding 180 in a hail of sub machine-gun fire.

The demonstrators were protesting against the South African
Government's restrictions on nonwhite travel.

In the aftermath of the Sharpeville massacre, protests
broke out in Cape Town and more than 10,000 people were
arrested.

This incident convinced anti-apartheid leader
Nelson Mandela to abandon his non-violent stance and
organise para-military groups to fight South Africa's
system of institutionalised racial discrimination.
In 1964 after some minor military action, Mandela
was convicted of treason and sentenced to life in prison.
He was released after 27 years and in 1994 was elected
the first black President of South Africa.

RIP Nelson Mandela.

WHY>>is/it..relevant?
[those..who dont/learn-the\LESSONS/of..the past/repeat-it

its..funny..how..a throw-away..line
be-comes..more/reliant..only/after reposing..further..info..came.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15786&page=0

yet..it did..[funny/how..the big thing..
they/have..*in-common..is/not..race..

[their..both semites]
but..yet/kept segre-gated..in..gulages..[slums]..and by artifices..implying..a lesser/servile being*/being..sub-servient-servant*

to...a mater*class
it/is..class_war..nelson..not race-wars

noted/..Lawrence Of Arabia,..has a big role..in/the israel thing
i guess..this explains..his..'after/life'..experiences..

[maybe..there is a/clue..there..that may/help..here]
http://www.divinetruth.com/PDF/People/Other/Jane%20Sherwood%20-%20Post%20Mortem%20Journal.pdf

i expect..nelson..will too/soon..correct the record

anyhow..source/info..here-under/extracted..from..page 2

http://www.opednews.com/articles/2/Netanyahu-s-Flawed-Vatican-by-James-Wall-Arab_Catholic_Father_History-131202-986.html

an article..re netenyahoos..gift of a book..to the pope
http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/Netanyahu-s-Flawed-Vatican-by-James-Wall-Arab_Catholic_Father_History-131202-986.html

the book
http://amzn.to/18bUy20

anyhow

This SECRET*..Vatican document..is referenced
in an important/new book..by Scott Anderson,..Lawrence In Arabia: War, Deceit,..Imperial Folly..and the Making of/the Modern Middle East.

In the spring of 1917,..the Turkish Ottoman ruler/of Syria was Djemal Pasha...When the British army..was poised to strike Gaza City in February, Djemal Pasha ordered..the evacuation..of Gaza City's entire population,..a total..of around 20,000 citizens.

He wanted to clear..the area for hisarmy to move in..and defend Gaza. After defeating the British/in a cleared out Gaza, Djemal Pasha and his German commanders looked north.

They suspected that the British/would next attack Jaffa..(now a modern Tel Aviv)...The city had..a population of 40,000, of which around 10,000 were Jews..and around 4,000 were Arab Christians,..living alongside Arab Muslims.

After the defeat in Gaza,..the Ottomans were/afraid that the British would attack Jaffa from the sea,..using the city's smooth beaches for easy access.

The British defeat at Gaza came on March 26,1917.

Two days later,..assuming the British would turn north, Dejmal ordered the evacuation of the entire population, Christians, Jews and Muslims.

He gave the residents a week/to prepare to move out. When Jewish leaders protested that the sacred Passover holiday was about to begin, Dejmal extended the evacuation order for an additional eight days.

Anderson writes:.."By clearing the city, Djemal Pasha unwittingly set in motion one of the most consequential misinformation campaigns of World War I."

Ignoring the fact that Jews were joined by Christians and Muslims in the forced evacuation,..the Zionist propaganda machine went into action, building the movement of the Jaffa population into an attack on all Jews of Palestine.

The British Jewish Chronicle newspaper led the way with a May 4 story that carried the subhead: "Grave Reports..Terrible Outrages..Threats of Wholesale Massacre."

little known fact

On 10 September 1986 Fidel Castro accepted Crocker's proposal in principle. ...President P.W. Botha asserted that South Africa would withdraw from Angola only..the Africans were asked for the release of Nelson Mandela..as a sign of goodwill, .
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=castro+withdrawal..angola..mandela&ved=0CB0QvwU

anyhow..HE WOULD STILL..*BE IN JAIL
but for fidel castro

get/it?

The very powers that ardently support Israel’s apartheid state are the ones shedding the most crocodile tears at the passing of Nelson Mandela. Where were their tears and support when he sat in prison for 27 years? Where are their tears for the thousands of Palestinians who perished under Israel’s occupation of their land?

*

The Obamas

The Harpers

The Camerons

Even The Royal Family …..

See THIS report to see who else
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/07/world/africa/nelson-mandela-international-reaction.html?hp&_r=0

Their tears are literally dropping on the checks
yet..they are sending in support of Israeli apartheid …..

*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W-qtmi6C3OY

Hypocrisy at its greatest.

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/bella-ciao-dear-comrade-nelson/

RIP Mandela.

No matter what any racists on this forum say, this man was a legend in our time.
Many of his speeches are famous and he had a deep understanding of humanity.

It was lovely seeing people from all walks of life celebrating Mandelas life all around the world.
His popularity says it all...

Foxy you are one of the few intelligent posters on this forum. Unfortunately you are trying to engage a right winger in J of M, who is in my view a 'White Supremacist' based on their posting over time. Jay I find comes across as rather intelligent, not one of the typical hateful knuckle dragers one normally associates with the extreme right. These extremists are often also historical revisionists, example, "the holocaust never happened, its all a great big Jewish lie". So for you to expect Jay to accept the historical facts about the Sharpeville massacre, maybe asking too much.

onthebeach,

I understand your point that you are "not easily convinced that anyone who would commit acts of terrorism or direct others in the commission of such awful crimes ever changes his personality and motivation to offend similarly again." It's a valid point, and I don't know enough about psychology to contradict the argument.

To me, though, this is an even greater sign of his later-life strength of character. Let's say, for argument's sake, that his personality didn't change, and that he was always plagued by a willingness (desire?) to brutalise his opponents. The fact that he didn't - and he has been documented and examined and observed thoroughly enough that I'm sure we'd know if he did - shows quite an incredible strength, in my mind. Once empowered, he COULD have done some pretty horrendous things. But his moral compass, even if opposed to some sorts of internal urges, prohibited that. I'd like to think (but am not entirely convinced) that I could show the same strength of character in his place.

the ties/that bind

http://desertpeace.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/zionism-1.jpg

eyes/only

FBI Investigated Anti-Defamation League (ADL) for Espionage
"Quashed case" mystery solved: culprit is once again secret Israeli intervention
http://irmep.org/adl_espionage.htm

2013 marks the 20th anniversary of the infamous "Anti-Defamation League (ADL) files controversy" in which the ADL was discovered infiltrating, spying on and otherwise violating the privacy rights of a large number of anti-Apartheid, civil-rights and peace groups through the unlawful acquisition of private data from corrupt local law enforcement officials. The single best retrospective is from long-time Middle East analyst and broadcaster Jeffrey Blankfort, who was also among those targeted by the ADL (see, "The Strange History of the Anti Defamation League: ADL Spies").

Many Americans were outraged in 1993 after reading mainstream press accounts of a vast national ADL spy network with organelles passing information not only to Israel's Mossad but also Apartheid South African intelligence services—possibly resulting in the mysterious death of Chris Hani and the rushed deportation/detention of many Palestinians.

http://www.icenews.is/2013/12/05/iceland-pm-tells-failed-banks-to-pay-up/

Declassified FBI files newly reveal not only the flood of constituent letters pouring into Congress and the FBI's unfulfilled assurances that justice would be served, but the ADL's use of proven tactics that the Israel lobby has deployed since the 1940's to skirt accountability for major criminal violations.

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/stunnning-chart-todays-stock-market-is-eerily-reminiscent-of-1929_12042013

He was a hero: Same as it ever was, same as the other hero's the left adore. Another Communist fool who believed his own crap, or was he?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRlh2nUWrzs

This is the freedom the left want for Australia, No thanks!

Dear Paul,

Thanks for your advice.

To me a man who taught us to seek justice rather than
revenge has died. Nelson Mandela was an inspiration
for civil rights activists around the globe. And he
was a rare individual. I can't even begin to imagine
the responsibility to ratify economic and social
consequences of decades of apartheid that was his to bear.

Otokonoko,

Thank you for engaging with my comments on the OP and for being relevant to both.

It is thankful that some change happened during his lengthy years in prison. Were it up to me, and as my comment implies, I would have had him released on parole much earlier based on his apparent good behaviour.

First, society has a need for protection and justice. That is being forgotten by the posters who would prefer to regard Mandela as a Ernesto "Che" Guevara style hero. Or maybe a Gerry Adams (IRA). They forget that ordinary people, vulnerable innocents, are killed by such men, and indirectly by those who support them. Worshipping such offenders and putting them on pedestals as 'heroes' could encourage more of the same, or loners. A prospect I suppose could appeal to some of the activists here, but not if it ever affected them personally.

We should be feeling relief that Mandela did not promote more bloodshed. However, it is far more likely that there was no religious sort of conversion, no change in psychology. It takes a particular sort of personality to actually kill innocents, or plan to do so, other than to simply imagine it but know you will never carry out your thoughts. Did that go away? Unlikely, but the intelligence (and certainty of further punishment) perceived there was no option but to take another, perhaps less attractive (to him) route.

Authorities and peace-seeking leaders also have no option but to applaud and there are very sound reasons why. For all, give thanks that a more peaceful path resulted, although there are more like the original Mandela who would shed blood still. We must give them no easy excuse.

From my post above: "They forget that ordinary people, vulnerable innocents, are killed by such men, and indirectly by those who support them".

Not alleging that either actually killed, but others could, interpreting their apparent lead to do so.

Raw Mustard I couldn't get your youtube like to work, but I think I found it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV9kyocogKo

Are you the bloke in the audience in the black army gear and pressie specks?

Sadly, there are so many opportunities to invoke Godwin's Law.

What's up, Paul, Upset one of your pal's showed you the truth?

Your inference I somehow associate with Hitler's views assumes I agreed with apartheid?

You couldn't be more wrong! There's only 3 degrees of difference between Hitler, your lot and Mandela. Anyone with 1/8 of a brain can see it, but lefties were never known for their smarts were they?

South Africa is a oppressive shithole and your hero created that for his own benefit. Same as it ever was, same as it'll always be while fools like you hoist these thugs up on a pedestal! I wonder where your values lie, Paul? Same as your mate Bandt, perhaps?

http://www.vexnews.com/2010/08/entryism-adam-bandts-plan-for-marxists-to-seize-control-of-the-bourgeois-greens-party-revealed/

The way you people hold this guy up like a god; you'd be quite Ok if some Aboriginal started necklacing anyone he thought was responsible for the oppression of the original, Aboriginal people. He'd be a hero to you lot?

As long as it wasn't you or your family being burnt to death eh?

Exactly OTB, they're endorsing his vile actions and forgetting what he created, a death sentence for anyone in disagreement or anyone white! That's his legacy, how freekin vile!

the more youhate
the more we must try to ,love

its..a little sad..that people cant forgive..or forget
its almost..like..they want to..despoil/blot-out..or obscure
good..that was only able to/be done..by one such as him..at that/ place..and/time.

he PERSONALLY..is being accused of necklacing[putting a tire around some-ones neck..and setting fire..to/it[a thing reportedly..his wife..REPORTEDLY/did/BUT>..NOT AS FAR AS I..KNOW..a horrid thing..mandles did.

regardless..those blind with hate agendas..prattle on
judging the times rather than anything actualy done..by the man

just ass we forget..that..jfk..got killed..simply for trying to prevent..nukes..[and that castro..DEMANDING..mandela be freed[to prove good faith..for cuba to withdraw..from angolia]..

life has those SPOILERS..who cannot conceive..
the weight god gives the repentant..heart.

ditto the same spoilers..wanting xmass ritual dead

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BoG2uhxeN6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PCLnie3HPMg

WASHINGTON..US President Barack Obama..had three unique tasks to juggle on Thursday night,..and only at the White House were they obviously interlinked.

http://www.jpost.com/International/Two-menorahs-Mandela-and-Iran-at-the-White-House-334182

and still..DOING THE HARD PRESS
recall/this same mob killed luther bobby and jack

The new Israeli ambassador presented his credentials yesterday and tweeted, “Pic w/Pres. Obama-

I look fwd to working w/you & your admin to make the bonds b/w Israel & America stronger than ever.’”

And he gave the president some cufflinks.
Dermer's gift..was made in dung-gate
http://f8wee1vvia32pdxo527grujy61.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Dermer-gift.jpg

YOU..who....have adopted..as..a state-symbol
the menorah..(candlebrum).

<<..which is explained..in the Tenach..
(on..the occasion of..a previous return..to the Holy Land).

as,WRITTEN

*"not..with..*armed force*..and..not with power,*....*KEY*
but..*in My spirit..says..the..Lord of Hosts.">>

more signs..by design

http://www.jewishgiftplace.com/photos/menorahs-big/opt/ancient_menorahs45.jpg

A Messianic Seal..from the Christian church/in ancient Jerusalem has been rediscovered..after 2,000 years...This ancient symbol was found on Mount Zion.

It is believed to have been created/and used by the Jewish believers who called..themselves Nazarenes..in the first Messianic Church
from
http://www.jewishgiftplace.com/Ancient-Menorahs.html

it sort of finishes..here for..now
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6098#177707

or here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15664&page=0

who..knows..maybe here

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#176496

ohbomber’s gift?
http://investmentwatchblog.com/executive-orders-from-hell-why-would-an-american-president-ever-do-this/

http://xrepublic.tv/node/6454

http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/lighting-national-menorah
http://investmentwatchblog.com/world-trade-organization-in-crisis-the-wto-is-a-western-cartel-that-emerging-countries-are-beginning-to-resist/

RM, Vexnews from August 5, 2010, Adam is a bit slow, I'm still waiting for the call. Is that the best you can come up with a 3 year old beat up from an online scandal sheet.
OTB that Mike Godwin bloke looks like a fat version of Heinrich Himmler, there's another one for you, add it to the list. Godwins law, you make it sound fair dinkum, like its a law, like the law that you can't eat meat on Fridays, and like Boyle's law, the only thing they have in common is they are both full of gas, well Godwins is all hot air, close enough.

Spin is important. If the forces for good don't re-write the history to sanitise Mandela and claim him and his 'revolution' as being for peace and good, the other side of nasty types will get to paint it all as concessions won by violent struggle. That gives them and others, the forces of evil if you will, the excuse and credibility among the easily led and disaffected for violence, especially violence directed at civilian targets. Very dangerous in a country where the locals have always enjoyed a bit of blood-letting and machetes are cheap.

It is appalling to see such lack of insight & so much ignorance. It's no wonder mankind keeps descending. Brainwashing works....the wrong way.

The top 5 most hypocritical Mandela eulogies by Israeli politicians
http://972mag.com/the-top-5-most-hypocritical-mandela-eulogies-by-israeli-politicians/83109/

What do statesmen of the Jewish state – one of the last western countries to support the South African apartheid state and which today practices apartheid-like policies between the river and the sea – have to say about the man who brought racism to its knees?

israel..dont do..anything..by chance
even in madelas time it was/doing..its thing[what things]
to give..OBOMBER..cuff-links..is like saying..we bind your/hands.

just as affective as hand cuffs
indicating your hands are tied

i note that mandela will/be commemorated..with gold cufflinks
i agree..that he NEEDS be made the peace maker..because govt rather have peace-nicks..doing it futility..than/negotiating with ira..or israel..who's works..validate terror as the way/means.

the freaky shape..of the menora...is like a spider
and spiders weave webs..as no mention..of the source of the material..its made of..dung gate where its made..gives a clue.

further clues..On Wednesday, Obama addressed income inequality. He called it "the defining challenge of our time." He did so disingenuously.

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/obama-claims-his-new-reforms-will-wait-for-it-give-americans-more-confidence-in-nsa_122013

Throughout his tenure, he's transferred America's wealth to corporate interests and super-rich elites. He stole it from ordinary people doing so...as ALL rich/must do..to get rich

Even Wall Street Journal editors said
"few presidents have done more to increase inequality than he has.

so now the dung-gate/cuff-links..look more like scales
[there is no justice..its just us..[and them]
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/there-is-more-to-learn-from-nelson-mandela/

so whats..in/the balance

http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html
http://www.zippittydodah.com/2013/12/political-correctness-and-rise-of.html
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/church-group-targeted-by-city-for-feeding-homeless/
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/horrific-consequences-people-dont-understand-the-scale-of-the-emergency-thats-going-on-right-now_12052013
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/austerity-eroded-human-rights-says-council-europe
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/elderly-britons-take-brunt-national-health-service-budget-cuts

thing..is..you will/never know
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/internet-s-new-biggest-threat-how-web-traffic-can-be-secretly-redirected

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2ae_1386278681

Stewart quipped, “I expect this from you,
Johnson. But not you, Johnson.”

What is amazing is that the crime Johnson & Johnson had done was bribe doctors to prescribe a medication for old people, the disabled, and babies, that had no proven benefit at all!

http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/censored-science-and-nonsense-retracting-seralinis-study/
gmo/3 rd generation/sterility

http://www.visibleorigami.com/2013/12/mind-control-or-control-of-mind.html

http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/pope-francis-the-globalization-of-indifference/

but there is no..shortage of cursed metal..in the world
to make them/from..[any,metal..associated with death..is cursed],metal has memory..

anyhow the king is dead..or so/it seems
its going to/be a cold winter of discontent[austerity]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2518562/Winter-storm-Cleon-delivers-heavy-snowfall-icy-conditions-East-Midwest.html

peacetalks..yeah right
http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-and-netanyahu-to-speak-at-washington-forum/?

Indy I try, constantly;.
Try to see what is behind your abrupt self satisfied posts.
A tip, you over use insults to others intelligence.
Nearly every post challenges some group or individuals intelligence.
In some cases I too challenge Individual IQ but there is little doubt it is a worthy question in that case.

alex jones..on..mandela..[he/is..not even angry]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9o0_2nz8Ou0

so calm

anyhow..not much different/between..winy/mensdela..and natzie
or..between..the wars of europe/palistein/southafrica..it seems

but such/was the time*
madness..before things became insane

the darkside
http://www.infowars.com/mandela-love-fest-ignores-dark-side-of-legacy/

policing..methods/pioneered by racism
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/why-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-does-not-exist-for-drug-defendants/

http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/media-democracy-and-the-power-to-misinform/

jap/secrets
http://enenews.com/japan-official-this-is-the-way-the-reign-of-terror-begins-lawmaker-physically-restrained-as-secrets-bill-rammed-through-final-passage-expected-in-hours-photos

Belly,
You judge people by how they express themselves. I judge them by the substance they use to express themselves. Another thing, I filter their mentality & by doing so I find too much of their rhetoric falls through the sieve & that's what most people pick up, hence the utter misrepresentation of people put on pedestals. It's even worse when there's a lot to be gained by feigned indignation & admiration.

This sums his type up perfectly, individual. I couldn't have described his type better if I did it myself!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0674KmC8yGA

The funeral is a much needed distraction from domestic and world events that have been plaguing leaders like Obama and our own PM. Another opportunity for diplomacy and self-promotion, whichever comes first remembering that all are politicians.

The Australian national flag being flown at half-mast for the day of the funeral is enough. I prefer to take that as symbolic of the end of apartheid.

Interestingly though, there are people in Australia who continually push for separateness for indigenous that is for all intents and purposes apartheid and the very opposite of what Mandela was fighting for. The Oz activists say they represent indigenous though. Regrettably the previous long experiment of indigenous self-autonomy (introduced by the Whitlam government) had very negative consequences for indigenous women and children, and also resulted in fraud, conversion of assets, loss and wastage of taxpayers' $$.

individual..govt..is god..vidio..
sums up a fraction././of the issues..and seems to be assembled
together..to get rid of govt[a thing..govt wont do..will resist doing]

so for all the 3000..only..who see..it
know it..already..they dont even need to see it
and as for the sheeple..they wont see it.so will continue..not knowing

so i put..the links out..knowing nothing will change
hoping..a few of the too many..may awake[its a numbers game]
\
but..in/the end..the same elite..return
because sheep need sleep..the/creeps never sleep...

anyhow..nelson..did what he was told
thats all..nothing more..nuthin less.

you know..he is one of 'them'
cause its old money..taken..by new ways..for the same old games

we dont need govt..we need auditors
auditing the public service/and quality..of service

the enforcers,,of society..are there to revenue raise
from the sheeple..thats all../.

[by forgetting they too are 'the people'
they become our biggest real/present danger
they make it..'safe'..for evil..to/do..global evil

<<flags at half-mask>>

I noted ABC RN saw great significance in the fact that the UK and US had both lowered their flags some days ago, but the Oz govt had only sought to lower ours for the day of the funeral.

SPQR, what can we read into your post? Abbott is not going to be dictated to by those South African "N%*$^@#s". The UK and US are sellouts to the cause. Abbott will show em' who's boss! What significance do you put on it? I don't put any, but I'm sure you can read between the lines, I can't.

Dear Paul,

I believe that it is up to our Prime Minister
to decide where, when, and if, flags are going to be flown
at half-mast. And he's decided in the case of Nelson
Mandela, to honour the man on the day of his funeral.
That shows the respect in which this man was held.
Can't help but wonder if Mr Abbott would have done the same
for Margaret Thatcher? Somehow I doubt it.

see it...... I can't.
Paul1405,
We know and, you're not too coy about it either !

http://enenews.com/japan-official-this-is-the-way-the-reign-of-terror-begins-lawmaker-physically-restrained-as-secrets-bill-rammed-through-final-passage-expected-in-hours-photos

UPDATE: Japan enacts state secrets law late Friday night amid revolt -- "It criminalizes investigative journalism" -- Terrorism defined as "imposing one’s opinions on others"

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/05/whistleblowers-japan-crackdown-state-secrets

http://enenews.com/secrets-law-passes-late-friday-night-amid-revolt-mushrooming-opposition-it-criminalizes-investigative-journalism-terrorism-defined-as-imposing-ones-opinions-on-others-protesto

http://www.japanfocus.org/-Lawrence-Repeta/3969

Snip from SimplyInfo =

>>
The LDP’s wish list for laws they want to change involve a long list of constitutional changes that would reinstate the ability to make war and dismantle just about every guarantee of human rights and freedom of the press. If you really want to get inside the head of the current political power in Japan this is a must read.

http://enenews.com/insiders-state-secrets-bill-meant-to-suppress-fukushima-news-japan-public-stunned-citizens-could-face-years-in-prison-toxic-leaks-into-ocean-seem-unstoppable-must-plug-information-leakage-ins

http://12160.info/forum/topics/bitcoin-developer-confirms-he-s-working-with-gov-to-give-control

the LESSON..of mandela..is being beaten to/death..BECAUSE
of guilt..

leaders want to deny..that locking people away..
'for our own..good;..[is..somehow..really/really..good,...because it was..'good'..for mandela]..not.

its a guilt relieving exercise
so they can say we arnt locking people up..were making mandelas

guilt all round
its this shameful..sham..that i will see
and that will in..the end..inflate the anger of vengeful spirit..[hoards],,of locked up for life..victimless criminals..CRIMINALIZED by their own..govts.

but let the war mongers honor..their future
executioner..by all means..

it will fall upon deafears
and only aggravate their heinous criminal activity

without GLOBAL-peace..there they..shall..stand..as the hypocrites..[all in one place..all at the same time]..i see a mossad clean-up op..coming on.

the 11..day grieving thing too..it all..just seems so suss
[oh..right..dopple-gangers..gottcha]

sorry..i must say..this

dopple gangers..wont work
but it would be a huge false flaG

ITS NOT AS IF ITS NOT SOP [STANDARD OPERATING PROOCEDURE]

Did We 'Capture' Saddam -
Or One Of His Doubles?

http://rense.com/general65/double.htm

Compare the alignment and condition of the teeth in these photos of Saddam, before and after his capture. Though with age some change could be expected, it is strange that such crooked teeth could emerge from a once well doctored smile. You decide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelg%C3%A4nger

In contemporary vernacular, the word doppelgänger is often used in a more general sense to identify any person that physically &#8210; or perhaps even behaviorally &#8210; resembles another person without regard to the word's original paranormal meaning.

HECK..ONE MIGHT EVEN SUSPECT..THE ;.CHANGED'..MANDELA
WAS EITHER MIND CONTROL..OR BRAIN WASHED..OR A DOPPLE GANGER

sorry about the caps
but i..grew up in the dis-info times
http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/the-cia-began-linking-oswald-to-castro-just-one-day-after-jfks-murder/
http://www.federaljack.com/down-the-rabbit-hole-w-popeye-11-22-2013-the-jfk-assassination-evidence-for-a-conspiracy/
http://www.veteransnewsnow.com/2013/12/06/fbi-investigated-anti-defamation-league-adl-for-espionage/

REMEMBER*..only..castro/ANGOLIA/demands..FREED..mandela.

an even suspect..'sauls/'..jesus mortal/enemy
and his road to demascuss..'conversion..into paul
then rewriting jesus works into dead words..paul wrote most of the old testiment..

jesus..is the peace maker..but before he can return
his divided house needs to unite
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0#177801

but..the thing..is..things are never as clear as
our media/govt/churches/histry books.. ..makes..it seem..

anyhow..i..note tony..is going..to take bill
and even bushe..who dispised him..is going with a full house [jet]..of presidents

i dont like the idea
of them all being in..one place at the same time

its all just too neat..too..easy to scam-up a plan
or kill off legends..or their dopelgangers..
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/international-monetary-fund-rolls-out-dangerous-wealth-tax-proposal/

make a dedication..to peace..in..our time guys
it must be great..and seen to..be fair..yet all them..
going into darkest africa..i dont know if thats a god idea

will thatchers son/be there
you know..the arms provider?..
in-lue of other thatcher/plot hatchers

thing is what will/they be planning
who's ultimatums will they be relaying.
http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/alliance-relationship-apartheid.html

its true..the times..maketh the man
but are they even capable..of remembering..what they are
AND WHO..THEY SERVE?

signs of/the times
http://bit.ly/18JFz24
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/news/narcissistic-us-anxious-saudi-arabia-and-hysterical-israel
http://intellihub.com/2013/12/06/new-house-resolution-calls-for-declassifying-secret-portion-of-911-report/

http://www.blacklistednews.com/U.S._Forces%2C_Intelligence_Agents_and_American_Security_Agents_%28MERCs%29_clandestine_war_in_Yemem/30958/0/38/38/Y/M.html
http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/cias-disastrous-bourne-strategy/
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/12/06/scientists-insist-iraq-nuked-by-us/
16:39
"Before 9/11 I Doubt If Anyone..Of Us
Could Have Imagined..Torture Would Be Defended..By US Officials"

http://xrepublic.tv/node/6480

From time to time you are asked, "If you could have 6 people over for dinner, who would you want?". I have always included Nelson Mandela in that list. I believe he is a great example of the truth that difficulties break some but make others. The world has lost an inspirational man.

.

Mandela was a Methodist. He told the Parliament of the World’s Religions in 1999. “Without the church, without religious institutions, I would never have been here today.” In speaking of his 27 years in prison under apartheid, he declared: “Religion was one of the motivating factors in everything we did”.

Margaret Thatcher denounced him as a terrorist, and former US vice-president Dick Cheney voted against a Congress motion calling for his release from Robben Island prison. But as the Anglican Archbishop, Desmond Tutu observed: “To virtually everyone else, he was held in the highest possible regard, almost as a paragon of virtue and impeccable integrity – indeed, almost of sanctity. The ANC and the anti-apartheid movement were able to use his extraordinary moral stature to galvanise support for their efforts to bring about fundamental change in South Africa and as a rallying point for their call to release all political prisoners”.

Nevertheless, Mandela was not lacking in critics and political opponents. Most of the criticisms directed against him were probably true. He never wavered from his singular objective of vanquishing apartheid and reconciling the multi-cultural peoples of the South African nation. Everything he said and did contributed to the attainment of that sole objective.

He seems to have considered that the ends justified the means. He consistently denied being a communist, for example, despite evidence that he was a member of the communist party early in his career. If he was, it was obviously not because he believed in communism but more likely to gain a useful ally to help further his cause.

His victory over apartheid and rise to power were accompanied by an unprecedented reign of tolerance, forgiveness and reconciliation – in striking contrast to the far less admirable means he had employed in order to achieve his final objective.

I posted this “opinion” on the following thread a couple of days ago. “Onthebeach” suggested I post it here for comment:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15789#273502

.

Indi, I know from personal experience where Australian conservatives stood when it came to apartheid, and their support for the oppressive South African regime in the 60's and 70's. That support was clearly demonstrated by their backing of a 'white only' rugby tour at the time. The chooks came home to roost for on of the conservatives favorite sons, John Howard, because of his past support of the apartheid regime he failed in 2010 to gain any "black" votes to become president of the International Cricket Council. Where Abbott stood in the past on the very question of apartheid, we'll never know, but I doubt he would have been in the front lines of protest.

Paul1405,

<<Indi, I know from personal experience where Australian conservatives stood when it came to apartheid yada yada yada ...>>

Stop talking through your hat. It's you "progressives" who are the biggest proponents of apartheid: remember separate aboriginal lands, remember special racial clauses in the constitution, remember separate stands of welfare determined by race

Paul you will understand.
Others will not or will pretend they do not.
White South Africans, who come from the right of far right.
Find a home sometimes a parliamentary seat.
On the Liberal side of the house.

<<White South Africans, who come from the right of far right.
Find a home sometimes a parliamentary seat.
On the Liberal side of the house>>

And Muslim extremists often get a glowing reference from the ALP head honcho of the day

"The Morris Iemma... wrote glowing references for Mamadou Ndaw, who turned out to be intimately connected to the core of local Muslim extremists whose homes were raided by the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation. Ndaw is the brother-in-law of Khaled Sharrouf, who was arrested in the ASIO counter-terrorism sweep.

Ndaw is also a close friend of Willie Brigitte, now in jail in France on terrorism charges. Ndaw had other connections in ASIO's files.""

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/trouble-in-the-premiers-patch/2006/01/13/1137118970548.html?page=3

And usually thereafter join the ALP as the party --after the Greens--most likely to let more of the brothers settle in OZ.

Dear SPQR,

Here's something that may put things into
their proper perspective for you:

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2003/s935193.htm

Our political conversation must shift away from
the mass infantile finger-pointing that now pervades it.

SPQR. you never fail. A 15 year old beat up about Mamadou Ndaw, and how was Mr Ndaw "intimately connected" to what ever you say he was "intimately connected" too. Was he having sex with them or something. SPQR you failed to mention the fact that Mr Ndaw once resided only 2 burbs away from a house once occupied by the notorious backpack killer Ivan Milat, that would be just as incriminating as the "evidence" you provide about Ndaw to convict Iemma.
Over the years I have met a number of white South African runaways who have settled in Australia. Some are quite nice, however the way others speak about the black South Africans I can see why they done the bolt.
You know very well John Howard is a racists. What is Abbott?

Hi Paul,

I noticed you didn't respond to my earlier point: why is separate racial territories and exclusive race based provisions bad in South Africa but OK when it comes to OZ? If it is too hard, ask Christine at the next politburo session.

<< how was Mr Ndaw "intimately connected" to what ever you say he was "intimately connected" too. Was he having sex with them or something>>
what, you can only think of intimacy in terms of "sex"? What a sad fellow you are Paul.

<<I have met a number of white South African(s)... Some are quite nice, however the way others speak about the black South Africans...>>
Must be the circles you move in. I have met a lot of South Africans and almost to a person they are pro-Mandela --love your choice of words "runaways" and "they done the bolt". I look forward to hearing you apply those terms to the illegals who came to Oz via Indonesia!

SPQR, I opened your link and there was a blast from the past Peter Debnam, I though how old is this? Yep 2006 then it harked back to 1996, so old its got whiskers. The whole story is based on guilt by association. I'm sure as the member for Lakemba Lemma most likely wrote many references for constituents with Arab sounding names. How does that make him guilty of something, should he have had a sign in his electoral office "no references for reffo's". I was never a fan of Iemma, I thought he was a bit of a lemon as Premier, but then again Eddie Obeid was running the State at that time, and look how he turned out. The sex comment was a throw away, have a laugh, like everything here don't take it too seriously, we are not at the UN.

Paul1405, that's a pretty nasty sledge of John Howard. Seems everyone wants to coopt Nelson Mandela's death for their own cause, no matter how grubby. Howard wasn't elected Vice-President of the Cricket Council because of his comments on Mugabe's regime in Zimbabwe, not because of support for apartheid.

I hope you're not going to defend Mugabe, but apparently lots of his kleptocratic mates in Africa were prepared to.

And can you please direct me to evidence of your assertion that John Howard supported apartheid? And I want a direct quote, not the assertions of one of his political opponents.

let/there be justice..for all
[L]-audible mandela[?]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mnHvgujwks8
FLASHBACK - Mandela slams Israel's Netanyahu at NAM summit

South African President Nelson Mandela on Wednesday condemned as ``narrow and chauvinistic'' the administration of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
http://southmovement.alphalink.com.au/southnews/NAM-re2-mandela.htm

Which may explain why so many media outlets
are trying to denigrate Mandela in the aftermath of his death.

Nelson Mandela Was On The U.S. Terrorist Watch List Until 2008
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/05/nelson-mandela-terrorist_n_4394392.html

Former South African President Nelson Mandela passed away Thursday evening at the age of 95. While he was revered by politicians today as a human rights icon, Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when then-President George W. Bush signed a bill removing Mandela from it.

Israeli forces attack protests
commemorating Mandela across West Bank

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=654814

Dozens of Palestinians were injured and one detained as Israeli forces opened fire to disperse protests against the Israeli occupation and commemorating Nelson Mandela's death across the West Bank on Friday afternoon.


Palestinians to Mandela:
Our Freedom Seems Possible Because You Reached Yours
http://www.commondreams.org/further/2013/12/06-0?

A moving open letter from Marwan Barghouthi, beloved Palestinian political prisoner, unifier and leader of the first and second Intifadas, now serving five life sentences in an Israeli prison, in honor of Nelson Mandela and his "capacity to defy oppression and apartheid, (and) choose justice over vengeance...(who) was "not only writing history, but contributing to the triumph of light over darkness." This, in contrast to a hypocritical U.S. complicit in support of today's apartheid over 20 disheartening years of keeping Palestinians occupied.

myth making?
http://alethonews.wordpress.com/2013/07/03/obama-falsely-asserts-he-is-mandela-follower/

soft press
http://bit.ly/19ppNnp
http://www.globalresearch.ca/fbi-investigated-anti-defamation-league-adl-for-espionage/5360458

Dear Graham,

The following link might be of some help:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/opinion/john-howard-pays-price-of-political-past/story-e6frg7t6-1225886427641

Graham, I refer you to the Tampa issue in 2001 and John Howard, the then PM, personal intervention in making the decision not to accept 434 mostly Afghan refugees, despite Australia being a signatory to the 1951 UN Convention on Refugees, and therefore obligated to accept such people, would his decision have been different if it involved 434 white South Africans. I believe any fair minded person would say Howard would have welcomed them with open arms. Australia tried to blackmail the Tampa's Captain into returning to international water, Australian medical personnel who boarded the ship were under orders not to give any treatment to the refugees unless the ship returned to international waters. I can only assume that Howard had full knowledge of those orders and had approved them.
The Norwegian Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg criticised Australia for refusing entry to the ship. Stoltenberg said "One cannot force a ship which the captain deems unfit to sail into international waters. The Australian Prime Minister does not agree with me,"
A link to ABC news with a July 2013 update on the Tampa issue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-07/former-sas-commander-breaks-silence-on-tampa/2785164

I cannot provide you with a link to this, only personal knowledge, but in the days of the White Springbok's rugby tour of Australia and just prior to Howard's election to Parliament, he was seen as one of the younger conservatives supporting the white only rugby tour.

"hope you're not going to defend Mugabe", Graham why would I do that, the man is now seen as an obscenity, and a racists.

@ Foxy,
<<Dear Graham,The following link might be of some help>>
You know, I am sure that if I ventured into the library where you worked/used to work and asked for book on motor vehicle repairs you'd hand me a book on knitting and say "This might be of some help"!

@ Paul,
Whhooooee! One has to be a reallly special person to be a Green. You need a capacity to conflate two of three or four entirely different issues- for example if someone is taking about apartheid in South Africa you must able to divert the discussion to illegal immigration in the Timor sea. And, just as importantly, you need to the capacity to ignore 9/10's of any issue and only perceive the remaining 1/10 which is compatible with your party's lies.

Where did you get your briefing on the TAMPA from --comic books that were lying around the Greens party room?

SPQR, I offered evidence that Howard demonstrated a bias on the grounds of race, not necessarily that he supported apartheid, although Graham did ask; "And can you please direct me to evidence of your assertion that John Howard supported apartheid?" I did not make that assertion, what I said was, quote; "You know very well John Howard is a racists."
I do think Howard's support for a rugby tour be white South Africans could have been construed as approval of the regime. Nothing that Howard did subsequently changed my opinion of him, in fact it tended to reinforce it.
Often when events overtake one, and public opinion solidly moves in the other direction, its not uncommon for some, particularly politicians, to deny that they ever held contrary opinions, or simply say nothing.
Is there any evidence that would paint Howard in a favorable light on the question of race/apartheid, I don't think so.

Paul1405. You have no evidence and you should have just admitted that. If Howard was pro-Apartheid someone would have something on the record - he's not a man who's been backward in putting his point of view.

Lexi, that article does not support the contention either. I'm generally against sanctions, but I was always against South African apartheid, but on your logic if you are against sanctions that makes you pro-the regime being sanctioned. On that logic I'm in favour of Iran having nuclear weapons because I don't think those sanctions are effective either.

i..rekon..its easy solved
did john winstone,..how-hard..attend the funeral?

so..i..pop the question..into the box
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=howard+mandel

clearly..his idols..had no time for terrorists

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/lesson-to-be-learnt-from-nelson-mandela-the-terrorist-who-became-a-president/story-fni0fha6-1226777456785

i was going to quote..but
i only read a bit..because the page redirects
i back-paged..three times..[but the page keeps re-directing]

but..the brief..onthe search result..was clear
ijust didnt get to see..it yet..to quote it..let alone source..it

but cats chase dogs
so..dogs chase cats

i like john...he..didnt pretend
so im fairly sure..he didnt

[but that dont mean/much..bob hawke didnt go either?]
nor john kerry
http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-palestinians-accuse-kerry-of-appeasing-israel-over-iran-at-their-expense/1806433.html?
nor the pope[but he had a good excuse]
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/10/30/pope-francis-denotes-christianity-as-an-illness/

nor did..israel

Netanyahu has decided not to attend a memorial service
for Nelson Mandela this week because it is too expensive
http://12160.info/page/netanyahu-has-decided-not-to-attend-a-memorial-service-for-nelson

but we know why..
[the linkage..of govt oppression..with palisteinians]

its not just the oil

http://12160.info/forum/topics/breaking-news-3-5-billion-barrels-of-oil-found-between-israel-s

http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2013/12/israeli-government-secretly-pays-for-pro-israel-twitter-propaganda-2457042.html

o0ops
left off the 'a'

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=howard+mandela

Dear SPQR,

If you were to walk into any of my library branches
the staff there would be more than capable of helping
you find the books you were after. However, it
wouldn't be me helping you.
I work in a specialised area as a subject consultant.
And your suggested subject of car repairs is a simple
one that any of the library staff could help you with.
There are heaps of DIY for dummies on the shelf.

Dear Graham,

It doesn't really
matter Mr Howard's reasons for not supporting sanctions
against South Africa. What mattered in this case
was how it was perceived by the people who
chose not to give him their vote. Perception was everything
in this case. And they obviously expressed their feelings
by not voting for him.

Paul 1405, "I cannot provide you with a link to this, only personal knowledge, but in the days of the White Springbok's rugby tour of Australia and just prior to Howard's election to Parliament, he was seen as one of the younger conservatives supporting the white only rugby tour"

Even if he did which is conjecture anyway, the issue would have been opposition to politics in sport. That is a reasonable complaint, particularly for an amateur sport such as rugby.

Activists of all hues like to piggy-back to get their headlines and that is what activists were doing in the subject case. In truth we care talking about activists linked with terrorism as well.

I have never seen any evidence whatsoever of any 'racism' in John Howard. Quite the opposite applies in his case, although you will not see him wearing it as a shield as some do.

Here are a few links on the question of
Mr Howard and racism as perceived by some
authors:

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/mi/1/mi1kuhn.pdf

And:

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3993

Beach, let me get this clear, a rugby team representing South Africa, a team that was purely selected on racial grounds toured Australia. This racially selected team represented a country which was governed by a raciest regime. Even if he (Howard) did (support this rugby tour) which is conjecture anyway (Howard did), the issue would have been opposition to politics in sport. That is a reasonable complaint, particularly for an amateur sport such as rugby (SA rugby was totally racially controlled, that is why 95% of their population could never be selected, they were the wrong colour). By supporting a racially selected team you are showing support for racism. The excuse of no politics in sport is a nonsense, the whole thing from start to finish was political inspired to give an air of legitimacy to the oppressive apartheid regime. People like Howard could not divorce themselves from that.

Paul1405. You have no evidence and you should have just admitted that. If Howard was pro-Apartheid someone would have something on the record - he's not a man who's been backward in putting his point of view.

Graham, you question me as to evidence of Howard's support for apartheid. I actually said Howard was a racists, not a screaming in your face racists, but a racists never the less. Does not the Tampa issue point to overt racism from Howard. Those who defend a racists often use the argument that he treats this group, no differently than he would treat others. Something that is often impossible to [rove or disprove. Is that not like saying hypothetically "Oh yes, he hates blacks, but he really hates everyone, black or white." You would never know if that was true or not. With this line the raciest can escape the charge.

Paul,

<<Does not the Tampa issue point to overt racism from Howard>>

No. What the repeated retelling of an edited version of the Tampa incident most clearly illustrates is the scurrilous nature of the Greens.

The "passengers" on the Tampa were rescued close to Indonesia.According to ALL international protocols they were required to be taken to the nearest port, which turned out to Indonesian.

And, the ship made sail towards Indonesia until--until -- the crew were intimidated into turning the ship around and sailing towards Christmas Island.

It has now become something of a leftist folktale being repeated in a much edited form on a thousand lefty websites and ten thousand different publications (no doubt in Foxy's library--as in most 'public' libraries --you'd only ever get the Green edited version).

Another such Green-left folk tale is the riot at Cronulla --already used on another thread within the last couple of weeks. To hear people like Paul tell it, one would think it was an entirely unprovoked attack --out of the blue--on innocence Muslims who just wanted to enjoy the sea breeze.

Relating all of the above back to the topic of this thread which was originally about Mr Mandella - it shows the power of repeating something. If the Greens media machine repeats something often enough it will have most of the Green membership, and the lesser number of gullibles outside the Greens, believing most of it, most of the time.

I am more than happy the world has shown it shares my views about the great man.
And too for the chance to tell of my opinion of him.

So Paul1405, if I was opposed to Malcolm Fraser's ban on the Moscow Olympics, then on your logic I was a supporter of communism. So that means that the entire Labor Party in the 70s and 80s were actually communists.

It's a lunatic conclusion, but it appears to be the one you support. And extending it further, it would appear to be the case that you think that the choice in Australian politics during the 80s and the 90s was probably a choice between communists and racists.

That's a pretty paranoid world you live in.

Foxy, you complain that people on these threads accuse you of being things you are not, but use the same standard to judge John Howard and others and say because you or others believe them to be a particular way, then they are, for practical intents and purposes.

I hope you remember that standard of logic next time someone misrepresents your position on OLO.

Dear Graham,

Actually what I am doing is simply providing links
to show different perspectives to issues being
discussed. For example when someone makes a statement
like "John Howard was not a racist!" I ask the
question on the web, "Was John Howard a racist?"
and supply the links that come up. I leave the
judgements for people to make for themselves.
My aim is simply to provide information to broaden
the discussion. What people make of that information
is up to them. However, inventing things, and accusing me of things I
did not say in my posts and then slandering me
for those inventions - is
what I do object to, as well as making assumptions about
what I do or don't think - is something
to which I am entitled to object. This is afterall
a forum of social and political debate and
as such I'm sure you'll agree
we need to look at more than one side of any issue.
I feel obliged to provide information with that view in mind.
It doesn't necessarily mean that that is the view that
I personally hold.

And, talking about racism, and Mr Howard, - here's a few more
links on the topic:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/15/1134500961607.html

And :

http://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2009/august/1272421563/waleed-aly/comment

What you make of that is up to you. I simply supply
the links - for the sake of the discussion.

SPQR, I can not recall making ANY COMMENT on the Cronulla riots "To hear people like Paul tell it, one would think it (Cronella riots) was an entirely unprovoked attack --out of the blue--on innocence Muslims who just wanted to enjoy the sea breeze." So please do not attribute such a statement to me.

Graham I will overlook the little personal insult there,
"That's a pretty paranoid world you (paul1405) live in"

The Moscow Olympics banning issue as raised by the conservatives at the behest of America is an entirely different set of circumstances to the White only Springbok rugby tour. If as Beach claims justification for rugby tour support was possibly "the issue would have been opposition to politics in sport" Then to be consistent Howard would have had to be in favor of Australia's participation in Moscow, not opposing it as he did.
The truth is conservatives were never strong on opposition to apartheid, as represented by the rugby tour, but were most vehement in their opposition to communism as represented by the Moscow Olympics, so at least Howard was true to his conservatism.

Belly, the world has lost a truly great person, and we are poorer for his passing. But lets be positive Nelson Mandela done more than any other individual to destroy the evil that was apartheid in his country, and bring freedom to millions.
One thing is certain John Howard who also graced the political stage in his country for a very long time will never receive the adulation from the world that Nelson Mandela has. In the end its the fighters the world respects and the passing of the sops and apologists gets no mention.

Paul, it's an old tactic. The bully lashes out, and when the bullied retaliate he then complains that they hit him. You set out to smear John Howard and others, and that is OK, but I point out what you are doing and that is an "insult".

You have no evidence of what Howard thought on South African Apartheid, the Springboks Rugby tour, or the boycott of the Moscow Olympics, yet you make outrageous claims based on your unsupported imaginings.

You also make claims about conservatives and apartheid which are smears and wrong as well. I was a member of the Liberal Party during some of the period when apartheid was in place in South Africa and I do not remember one motion being passed supporting it, or anyone speaking up and defending it.

If you want to see the face of racism in this country at the party political level you would have to go to an ALP branch meeting - the authors of the White Australia policy.

i..was half/listening..to alex jones
http://rss.infowars.com/20131211_Wed_Alex.mp3

heard the search term..when they talked of mendela

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=why+imperialism+morns+mendela&

from..the search[mainly'socialist'/web sites
could be revealing..[alex hates commies]
but perversions..of ideology has become intrinsically..linked to person*

apartheid..is no different
we mixing..the man with the mess-age.

but clearly..the man has feet/of clay
[but dont we all]..its all after all*..only opinion*

from a link/from the search term

Mandela’s death reveals the way in which a man whose life is inextricably bound up with the history and politics of South Africa is turned into an entirely apolitical icon,

*a plaster saint embodying, in the words of Obama,
“being guided not by hate, but by love.”>>..

GREAT SOUND*BITE
but what the FRUIT*
[..'flatters..with..their lips'..?]
by..their WOKS/deeds..may we KNOW*/them

<<..What is it that the capitalist oligarchs in country after country really mourn in the death of Mandela? It is clearly not his will to resist an oppressive system—that is something they are all prepared to punish with imprisonment or drone missile assassination.

Rather, the answer is to be found in the present social and political crisis gripping South Africa, as well as the historic role played by Mandela in preserving capitalist interests in the country under the most explosive conditions.

It is significant that on the day before Mandela’s death, South Africa’s Institute for Justice and Reconciliation issued an annual report showing that those surveyed felt overwhelmingly that class inequality represented the paramount issue in South African society, with twice as many (27.9 percent) citing class as opposed to race (14.6 percent) as the “greatest impediment to national reconciliation.”

at least..the pope..'gets it'[seemingly]
http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-francis-issues-peace-day-message
This means not being guided by a “desire for profit” or a “thirst for power”...What is needed is the willingness to..“lose ourselves”..for the sake of others..rather than exploiting them,..and..SEEK/ways..to “serve them”..instead of oppressing them..for our own advantage.

“The ‘other’ –whether a person,.people or nation –[is to be seen] not just as some kind of instrument, with a work capacity and physical strength to be exploited at low cost and then discarded when no longer useful,..but as our ‘neighbour’,..a ‘helper’”

its sad enough..the mime..behind obomber
but it gets even worse..[how to treat the saviour of the sudaten land

now..http://www.google.com.au/search?q=mandela+family+charade
brain dead since june
http://guardianlv.com/2013/12/nelson-mandela-family-finally-gives-up-charade-and-admits-mandela-dead/

, his family refused to turn off the life support machines hooked up to his body. Thus, the family could keep him artificially “alive.” Their motive? To settle a huge lawsuit against Mandela’s estate.

It was revealed that Mandela’s family was suing him for control of his estate and since it is impossible to sue a dead person, it seems Mandela had to be kept “alive” with machines until a resolution could be found for the lawsuit.

Thus far, there is no word on whether that lawsuit had been settled, but there are already many speculations in the press that this announcement today will begin the battles over the Mandela estate afresh.

Graham you seem to put your own slant on what I say.
I said clearly "You know very well John Howard is a racists." previously I had said "John Howard, because of his past support of the apartheid regime he failed in 2010 to gain any "black" votes to become president of the International Cricket Council."
You turned that into "And can you please direct me to evidence of your assertion that John Howard supported apartheid?"
I then said "he (Howard) was seen as one of the younger conservatives supporting the white only (South African) rugby tour of 1971." I am over 60 years of age and from my adolescent days and my recall of events in relation to that rugby tour;
It was highly political and had the full backing of the South African regime, clearly not for its sporting benefits, but as a propaganda tool to show acceptance and legitimacy of that regime and prove normality of the country. John Howard had already been noticed as one of the younger conservatives supporting both conscription and the Vietnam War and it was natural that he supported the tour. It clear that by supporting that tour one could not be seen in any other light than lending support to the regime in South Africa, the two could not be divorced, no matter how much some supporters pretended it was so. A corner stone of the SA regime was the apartheid system and its pass laws. Only the naive would think that sport and politics are totally separate, from the time of the 1936 Olympics sport has been used as a propaganda tool by politicians.
con't

con't
You said; "If you want to see the face of racism in this country at the party political level you would have to go to an ALP branch meeting - the authors of the White Australia policy." Agree Graham, and I say like my died in the wool Labor man, my dear old dad, Arthur Calwell was a raciest. Calwell was a man from the 19th century, with 19th century attitudes on race. Howard led Australia in the 21st century with 19th century attitudes on race, there is a difference.

Graham, could you please provide evidence to your claim that the ALP were "the authors of the White Australia policy"
Here is a non political like that refutes such a claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy

Following Federation the Commonwealth passed the first of what become The White Australia Policy in the form of the Immigration Restriction Act of 1901. The government of the day was Edmond Barton's Protectionist which governed with Labor support, the Free Traders were in opposition, but did not oppose the act. Subsequent governments of all persuasions built on that original act to strengthen the policy. The White Australia Policy did not finally pass into history until the Whitlam Labor Government abolished the last remnants in 1973.