It certainly is stranger than fiction, & you wouldn't believe it, if we didn't see it nightly on the news. Yep that's right, Labor's carbon tax policy I'm talking about.

Over night we hear that yet another major trading bank has closed it's carbon credits trading section. Any little carbon trading that is required will be covered part time by other staff. That is the fourth major bank, along with many bit players to get out of the failed market.

Yes, the bureaucrats of the EU & the traders are trying desperately to get a new, more expensive scheme off the ground, but the whole scam is like a dead weight. Sorry fellers, you've lost your rich pickings off the backs of pensioners. Try getting a real job.

There is a rumor that paper companies are buying up carbon credits to make toilet paper. It is the cheapest paper in Europe.

Meanwhile back at trades hall, Labor are still wanting to get Oz in to the EU trading scheme. They just refuse to see the writing on the wall, or even the burning bush. They would prefer to fund the EU & it's failing scam, rather than admit they got it wrong.

How must Labor supporters feel, when even dropkicks like Carr & KRudd are running as hard as their little legs can carry them to get away from the catastrophe.

Another Labor failure, we can now add the NDIS scheme which is reportedly 30% over expected costs.

Weren't both of them Juliars?

Hmmm .. I am actually a bit more concerned about "my" silly Greenies who just don't seem to be able to get their heads around the idea that the "carbon tax" was always going to be a poison chalice and once they went from the idea of an open, transparent and inclusive public debate to determine the best way forward to a sleazy back room deal with the ALP it perhaps should be no surprise that what came out of it was an abomination.

It's not that the majority of Australians do not want to address climate change but rather, that the base has already been over revved and red lined and they are simply not prepared to take any more.

I must say that I have a lot of sympathy with that particular view, though I would add, it is not how much you are paid only, but rather what you get for it as an overall package. You see, Ozzies say get 5 times more in dollars say than in some other places, but you really don't get much more in real terms. Go figure ..

Likewise with Asylum Seekers. It is not that the majority wish to see ghouls like Morrison abusing people and kids, but rather that they know all too well that if some people are to get more, ie the Asylum Seekers, then other people must get less, which invariably is those who can least afford it.

..

If a deal hasn't already been done, I suspect that the ALP under Shorten will shack up with the Liberals to roll out some nuclear generated electricity solutions in the medium to long term.

In the mean time, no doubt but subtle means, they will do everything they can to have the Greens relegated to a minority niche at best.

The whole political spectrum has lost the plot world wide, Hasbeen. The crooks have taken over every government from Timbuktu to Upper kummbukkta West. It's a world wide push to destroy everything in order to usher in a new system. Just look at what the poor yanks are facing with that Obozo of a president they've got.

CMS Official: We Still Haven't Built '30 to 40 Percent' of Obamacare's Web Apparatus, Including Payment Systems

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2013/11/19/cms-official-60-to-70-percent-of-obamacares-web-system-still-hasnt-been-built-n1749461

He's talking about a carbon tax also. Probably to buy another copy of front page to finish off his website.

Then the poor Europeans with their Euro Communist Union with their bail ins and theft of the peons savings amongst other vile things. Something that loony tunes Krudd signed us up to as well.

And then we have banks writing themselves i.o.u's to cover their own debts, self securitising themselves and it's all kosher with the .govs and their crony banking mates. Aus being one of the bigger players.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-11-15/unspoken-toxic-secret-heart-shadow-banking-self-securitization-central-banks

Everything is fake and the whole world has gone completely mad, it's all upside down.

It's all linked buddy, so keep some powder dry and handy and prepare accordingly. The Zombie Apocalypse is almost here!

Labour and Greens showed themselves to be economic vandals. There is enough hatred for Western values among them not to give a stuff. They mismanaged and lied about carbon tax, mining tax, NBN, school halls and just about every other thing they put their hands to. They now have the hide to claim some sort of legacy with blowing a huge deficit and leaving a great debt. But of course their in Gonski. What heroes to make grand promises they can never deliver.Instead of a national apology and hoding their heads in shame they speak of legacy. Oh that's right they said 'sorry ' despite the fact that nothing has changed.

So you guys reckon that a tax on pollution is bad which after all is what a carbon tax does. We are entering a pretty nasty economic situation were we will either have to increase taxes, reduce benefits or borrow large amounts of money. The solution being proposed is typical, stuff the long term lets borrow all the cash we can and let future generations pay the bill. Such an attitude is morally reprehensible and those promoting it should exposed be for the nonsense that they are pedalling.

As far as the NDIS and the cost blowout is concerned I believe they actually asked the non contributing (non taxpaying) recipients and their public funded carers of the scheme what they would like from the scheme.
No wonder the costs blow out.
When you are playing with other peoples money the sky is the limit.
By the way where does Insurance come into the NDIS? I thought you had to pay a premium, at least I do, for an insurance policy.

Dear Chris,

This may help:

http://theconversation.com/the-ndis-is-worth-the-investment-heres-why-6685

To anyone with half a brain the figures for NSW alone do not add up to reality.
Example
Quote "It will make an additional 50,000 people with disabilities and their families eligible for support, creating up to 25,000 jobs in the disability sector."

That is just like adding 25,000 unproductive public servants that do not generate 1cent to the economy, WHO PAYS the taxpayer.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/19931310/nsw-parliament-passes-bill-enabling-ndis/

Dear Philip S.,

If you Google - "NDIS explained"
you'll come across quite a few websites that will
clarify a few things.

Quoting from just one:

"What wee do know currently is that the NDIS will have
individualised funding packages based on a client's level
of need. The person with the disability, together with
their family and carers will be able to choose where they
spend their entitlement, meaning that service providers
will no longer receive block funding from the government,
but will instead compete for a client's funds.

Theoretically this should increase efficiency and give the
client choice. Those navigating the current system complain
that difficulties faced by disabled people and their carers
are often compounded by a complex and inefficient
disability bureaucracy. They believe that self-determination
afforded by the NDIS will help people with a disability gain
a sense of independence and dignity."

Remember a society is judged by the way it handles its most
vunerable.

Hasbeen has the thought ever crossed your mind ones self confidence about their opinions can be wrong, totally so?
How do we account for 40% of this country thinking differently.
Is it wise to claim they are always wrong?

Foxy - Firstly the thing has already blown out by 30%.

Working on the N.S.W ratio of 2 disabled people to 1 carer therefore the 460,000 that the scheme will cover will need in the order of 230,000 unproductive people. Please explain where the money is going to come from? The future will say if I am right or wrong.

As for "increased efficiency" is that before or after the con artists work out how to rort the scheme?

To Quote you "a society is judged by the way it handles its most
vulnerable." Please explain why we have tens of thousands homeless BUT not 1 homeless refugee?

Foxy - Forgot to add that the demand for services has been significantly greater than expected so the figure was 50% out, so potentially that 460,000 could be up to 690,000 people.

This is ONE big monetary disaster accumulating.

About time the coalition showed some leadership, if at all that is possible. The labor blame is out of date, we have a govt that does not know which way is up. A disaster on our door step is all that has been accomplished so far. Albeit with no legislation necessary, only a big mouth.

Dear Philip S.,

Not one homeless refugee?

Gee whiz at a guess I'd say it's because -

they're either being kept in detention centres awaiting
to be assessed or they've been towed back (or is it
turned back) to Indonesia, no wait that's wrong isn't it -
or they've been settled in PNG. Or maybe, those that have
been allowed to stay are actually employed, and have
already bought their homes. Take your pick. You could also
ask the current government - but they'll blame it on the
carbon tax as they blame everything else (you'd know this
if you watch Question Time in Parliament).

As for rorting the system on the NDIS?
You obviously don't know many people with disabilities.
Rorters of the system
come in all shapes and physical attributes -
however most of them are not disabled -
(in the normal sense of the word).

It's interesting that you're concerned about "rorting"
that may or may not occur of the NDIS but I wonder if
you're as concerned about "handouts" that the government
makes to the rich.
This fact generally escapes attention because these benefits
take the indirect form of hidden subsidies or tax deductions
rather than the direct form of cash payments.

Foxy - approx 50,000 arrived during the Labor disaster years at the moment there are approx 4,000 in detention overseas a few thousand in Australia, some went home so around 40 or so thousand are housed in Australia.

Quote "I wonder if
you're as concerned about "handouts" that the government makes to the rich." The answer is yes but it has not come up in this thread prior to your question.

Dear Philip S.,

You were the one who asked the questions,
I merely answered you.

<<[It's] About time the coalition showed some leadership [says 579]>>

Reading the posts of those on the left is like learning a whole new language. When they say *show leadership* what they mean is the leader should make a decision that the majority of the electorate don't agree with, and probably wouldn't vote for in a millions years, but which they on the left think is a good idea.

Similarly, I was in a lecture theatre recently when a far left speaker come in to spruik candidates for a student newspapers editorial-ship election. His main reason why the assembly should vote for his candidates was "because you need to have your views challenged". The #!*% newspapers weekly content was cover-to-cover extreme left propaganda --and yet, it was everyone else who needed to have their views challenged!

Belly I'm talking fact, not opinion. The countries of the EU are waking up to the fact that they have been conned with the alternate power industry, & are backing out. Carbon credit script is the cheapest toilet paper in Europe. How your parties leaders have not seen this is a bit of a mystery.

Foxy my sweet, the NDIS & Gonski are Gillard's revenge. She knew she was gone, so introduced these pipe dream "welfare" scams that no country on earth can afford, to get us, who didn't want her, & Abbott who she knew was about to get the job, or Rudd, if by some miracle he won the election.

Anyone who can't see she did this to make it hard for the next government is blind because they have their eyes tight shut. The lady may not be very capable of effective management, but is rat cunning.

She has placed those who followed her in the position of having to say no, & have every bleeding heart after them, or squib it, & have the country broke like another Greece with all government larges slashed.

Add to this mess the NBN fiasco, & it could be our grandkids will still be paying for this ladies vicious last gestures, & a host of disabled will have to cry the dollar signs of false hope out of their eyes.

Foxy,
Why should I (with perfect genes and perfect kids) be required to spend my money, that I earn with my skills, on some one else kid from bad genes that will cost for the totality of its life.
Every day Downs Syndrome kids are being born from Downs Syndrome parents and I am to be made responsible for this.
Before kids are allowed to be born parents should be required to have a genes evaluation and ant suspect birth prevented by law.
Quote "It will make an additional 50,000 people with disabilities and their families eligible for support, creating up to 25,000 jobs in the disability sector."
25,000 non productive jobs that a couple of hundred thousand productive workers are going to have to pay for.
We need to reduce the number of disability pensioners not increase the numbers.
Did you know that indigenous obesity is a registered disability and organizations like Wuchopperen thrive on government money to service these disabilities ?

Too right Chris.

My son has just had an accident, however, he has income protection, trauma, TPD and life insurance. He is 22.

Now sure, if not for all these insurances he could most likely afford the HSV he wants, or perhaps the new jet ski.

The point is, that if you are of working age, and fully employed, then become disabled and don't have adequate insurance then I'm afraid that's a risk you choose to take.

It's called makimg choices.

The tax payer should not be paying your way, other than the VERY VERY basics, and I do mean BASICS!

Lexi.....or they've been settled in PNG. Or maybe, those that have
been allowed to stay are actually employed, and have
already bought their homes.

If they have bought their homes, that would suggest they were in fact, economic refugees in the first place, otherwise, how on earth could they get a job, unskilled, then save enough for a deposit on a home?

Just admit it, charity DOES NOT START AT HOME. Not our home, anyway!

Hasbeen, we were saying for a year or so before the election that she was only implementing these dreams to make life difficult for this following her. She knew she was a dead duck.

Dear rehctub,

How on earth could they afford to buy a home?
They must therefore be economic refugees?

I'm so glad you asked.

The following link is the story of Prof. Al Muderis,
which I originally read in the November 2013 issue
of The Australian Woman's Weekly. Dr Muderis had to flee
Iraq after he refused Saddam's regime brutal orders to
surgically remove the ears of soldiers who escaped from
the army. Dr Muderis ended up on a flimsy wooden boat
heading to his new home, Australia. He ended up in a
detention centre where the then Immigration Minister,
Phillip Ruddick told Prof. Muderis that his qualifications
would not be recognised in this country. When asked
today what would Dr Muderis say to Mr Ruddick, Prof.
Muderis smiled and replied that he say, "Lets chat, Mate,"
or words to that effect. Prof. Muderis today is a leading
surgeon and expert in new technology for prosthetics
and the work he does is truly amazing for this extraordinary
man. He re-studied and has contributed so much to people
without limbs both in this country and internationally.
His wife is also a GP and they both worked hard and achieved,
and continue to give so much to us all.
It's a shame that stories like these aren't published more
often in the media. Instead all we hear is negativity about
asylum seekers - for political gain.

http://www.almuderis.com.au/news/222-from-penniless-prisoner-to-bionic-surgeon

And

http://www.almuderis.com.au/about-us/assoc-prof-al-muderis

Dear Chris and rehctub,

I don't believe in the ideology of greed, filled by an
unbridled commitment to individualism. It leaves no room
for social equity, compassion or the idea of an
egalitarian society.

I understand that there are people who believe
that people,
in their view, either sink or swim. And if they sink, well
that's too bad. Because according to these people, welfare is
not good for business. Obviously the inevitable expansion of
capital (money) with its attendant social inequality and
natural destruction for them brooks no interference and
allows for no moral judgements.

To each his/her own.

It is my belief that the vast majority of Australians would be happy to pay a little - and, in doing so, make a small sacrifice - in order to make the world a better place for ourselves, for others around us and for our future. The trouble is not that we are greedy or selfish - it's that we're being gouged left, right and centre for causes that have not been explained to us, that do not appear to affect us and that do not address the immediate need to put food on our tables and roofs over our heads.

The Carbon Tax is one example. My most recent gas and electricity bills recorded my lowest usage ever, but the bills were the most expensive I've had yet. Unfortunately, I do not receive any of the benefits that our former PM assured us would compensate for this, so I'm not one of the many who would (apparently) be better off under the scheme. I'd be fine with this, except that there's little more I can do to reduce my energy usage further without seriously compromising my quality of life.

The NDIS is a further example. I'm happy to pay if it means that, should I find myself in need of a helping hand, I'll receive it. I'm also happy to pay if it means that those around me will be better off.

Asylum seekers, carbon taxes, NDIS, paid parental leave ... each on its own is fine for me - but there's a limit to what I can continue paying without wondering what I get in return for the taxes I pay. It's not greed - it's just a sense that I work harder than ever before and don't seem to be reaping the rewards.

Foxy - Congratulations that was two people what about the other 49,998 so called refugees or economic invaders.

Otokonoko,

"The Carbon Tax is one example. My most recent gas and electricity bills recorded my lowest usage ever, but the bills were the most expensive I've had yet...."

You do realise that your state electricity utilities are the ones hiking your electricity bills beyond the pale.

Your electricity bill would have hiked around 10 percent (likely a little less) due to the carbon tax.

But your comment above plays exactly as the one bleated ad nauseam by the LNP...it's not surprising that people the same tune.

Foxy,
Do you really believe this story in WW about the man called Prof. Al Muderis?
If he refused Saddam's orders he would have been put to death straight away.
Don't believe a word these people say unless you can check it out yourself.
I met a North Vietnamese Colonel who we had in custody in POW camp in Saigon who told Australian authorities when the war ended that he was a South Vietnamese civilian and a fully qualifies bio chemist to get into Australia.
The only chemicals he was interested were the illegal kind when we busted him and his gang in Cabramatta.
He got 17 years and will be deported. I only believe what I can see with these people.
Looking at this Dr Muderis website. It seems to me that he advertizes because he wants money.
I don't see Macquarie Street specialists advertising for business. For some reason they think it is unethical and their reputations stand high for them anyway.

Foxy,
<social equity, compassion or the idea of an egalitarian society>
This is the belief that someone should live their life for the benefit of others.
That is the basis of civil destruction and the fundamental construction of communism.
Do you really believe that some other person has any social right to my wealth, that I should share it with him because he has less than me, that his need is my guilt.
Why would I, should I work my arse off to support someone who wont or can't work.
Do give him the food off my kids table.
Wake up to the real world Foxy.
I suggest you read a bit of Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged or Anthem) and you might get an insight into why people actually work...for themselves.
Guess who made this world you live in. Certainly not the socialists mate.
It was the capitalists that gave you everything you have and because they made money along the way you howl them down as villains.
Get real and try working for a living instead of living off the workers bones.

Poirot,

I'm a little disappointed. I have taken some time to consider the reasons for my general feeling of dissatisfaction, and made sure I thought some more before composing my response to this thread.

My response, as I think was quite clear, simply stated that many of us are tired of being asked to pay more and more for things that do not appear to be immediately relevant to us. If those things are relevant to us, then it is indicative of a governmental failure that the relevance isn't made clear. A simple PR shift that shows us how the hits to our hip pockets are building a better world might brighten the atmosphere a little.

I never claimed that the entirety of my utilities bill increase is attributable to the Carbon Tax - rather, I noted that, since the introduction of that tax, my bill has increased and nothing I can do seems to bring it back down. Believe it or not, I'm not stupid - and I am aware that many factors contribute. I read the mail sent to me by Ergon and Origin outlining and rationalising pricing increases, and I have sufficient skills in the field of literacy to understand that correspondence. The fact remains that, as I said, the price has gone up and none of the compensatory factors outlined by our former government apply to me.

Sadly, rather than presenting an opposing argument, you sought to invalidate my concerns with condescension and by relating those concerns to the 'bleatings' of the LNP. To suggest that my dissatisfaction is fuelled purely by blind acceptance of a political party's propaganda (odd, then, that I would include that same party's paid parental leave in my list) is lazy. You would serve your cause better by indicating why those bleatings are wrong.

I'm sorry if I've given you the impression that I'm a fool. I assure you that I'm not, and encourage you to try harder in future.

Otokonoko,
You, like all other hard working tax paying citizens are being economically raped by the socialistic left wing communist inspired governments of the past in particular and to a degree the currant one.
As long as we are a member of the United Nations social covenants we will suffer a steady decline in our individual wealth and our standards of living.
All this crap about our society being judged historically by the amount of compassion we show to the disadvantaged has no real meaning.
Who care how history judges us?
Boats should be turned around at sea and if they sink bad luck
Criminal should be locked up you years and made to work hard to support their existence.
Disability Insurance should be based on premiums paid by the individual.
Gas and energy products should not be exported for profit where they can be utilized in this country to reduce energy costs.
Supermarket marriages to anything other than food should be outlawed.
Health Insurance should be universal and cover all and everything with no gaps or extra payments.
Private hospitals should be hospitals with full emergency services and in-house doctors rather than accommodation for visiting specialist patients.
Aged care should be a federal government department and police with an iron fist for care,quality and commitment.
I could go on and on but with the lethargy of the average Australian today it seems to be a lost cause.

Otokonoko,

I do realise that you're not stupid. Yet you deliberately cited the "carbon tax" as "the" reason your electricity bill is soaring.

The "compensatory factors" outlined by the former govt were for the "carbon tax" not for other factors.

Over here in WA our electricity bills have also soared.

The main reason is that the state electricity utility has gouged muchly.

It's a similar story in other states.

Here's what you wrote initially:

"The Carbon Tax is one example. My most recent gas and electricity bills recorded my lowest usage ever, but the bills were the most expensive I've had yet. Unfortunately, I do not receive any of the benefits that our former PM assured us would compensate for this, so I'm not one of the many who would (apparently) be better off under the scheme. I'd be fine with this, except that there's little more I can do to reduce my energy usage further without seriously compromising my quality of life."

So, yes, you are an intelligent person, yet you set out soley to target the the carbon tax regarding electricity hikes in your initial post. You only mentioned "other factors" regarding electricity when I pulled you up.

".....You would serve your cause better by indicating why those bleatings are wrong."

Those bleatings are wrong because they parrot false propaganda disseminated by a party to win an election....(How's that?)

You sound like the teacher you are with your stern admonition.

Unfortunately, I'm not one of your students, so I won't be skulking back to my seat.

Maybe the question this thread should be asking is this.
How can we inhabitants of OLO think so very differently.
And for that matter act, Hasbeens contributions here from his first is extraordinary and in my view quite the opposite to truth.
We are being served up rubbish about the carbon tax and its part in power price rises.
9% when in opposition Tea Party Tony swaggered in to the house claiming 50% increases in power costs due to carbon tax!
His team here, sitting on those exercise bikes without wheels, try to maintain that constructed lie.
While we serve up trash we ignore some truths.
Abbott has no mandate for any thing his victory was his,but gifted to him
by a fraction broken and torn ALP over ripe and unwanted by voters.

I personally looking forward to Labor clinging to the carbon tax lie, as I am keen to see how far labor's primary vote will drop.

I still remember the heady days before the election when Juliar's primary vote dropped below 30% and the labor caucus dragged her in for a public hanging.

Yes, SM....

You must be glowing with pride at the handy work from our new PM.

After all, it's not easy to alienate "best friends" and infuriate neighbours with such amazing speed and ineptitude.

Makes one wonder what he'll be able to achieve in the space of an entire term!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-22/senior-indonesian-politician-accuses-abbott-of-mishandling-spyi/5109632

You're onto something there, Poirot - WHY did Abbott authorise bugging back in 2009 ?

Wait a minute ...... I forget, was he Prime Minister back then ?

Just wondering.

Cheers :)

Joe

Dear Chris,

Sorry to disappoint you but Prof. Al Muderis's story
has been verified and is indeed true. You can still buy the
November 2013 issue of The Australian Woman's Weekly
and read just who this extraordinary man is for yourself.
He is reputable and well known both in Sydney and internationally.

As for working for a living?
You ignorant, ignorant man!

My family and myself have always done so beginning with
the initial two-year work contracts which was the
first major contribution that my parents made to this
country. The other migrants of that time helped solved
an acute labour shortage in Australia, especially in
outlying areas and along with other European migrants
they relieved the shortage of domestic staff in hospitals,
increased the output of building material, helped build
Australian homes, saved fruit and sugar crops, maintained
railways, worked in sawmills, brick factories, cement
works, clearing land, projects, water conservation, salt and
brown coal mining, quarrying etc. They had a huge economic
impact on this country and they passed on their work ethic
to me and my brothers.

You need to be aware that many newcomers to this country
have established building companies, new factories,
retail, services and repair centres, skating rinks, tailor
shops and even a complete town (Eucla). Many others became
self-employed in small business and in all kinds of trades.
So stick your ignorance where the sun doesn't shine
Although I doubt very much
that it would possibly do you any good.

Dear Philip,

Read my previous post on migrants.
I've wasted enough of my time as it is.

P,

Are you are talking about the spying done under Labor's watch that caused the crisis.

Yes, it will take a while to repair the damage done by the two incompetent PMs fielded by Labor.

Hahahaha...SM,

Is that really the best you can come up with?

You forgot to mention Abbott's incredible talent.

It's not easy for a nation to choose a PM with absolutely no diplomatic skills whatsoever.

Exposes what a dud Peta Credlin is too.

She and her team are dreaming up the written statements for dimwit Abbott to read out on the floor of parliament - (coz he's not capable of articulation off his his own bat)

Congrats Australia.

(Did you note that SBY complained about the lack of contriteness - that was the point which rankled)

Hi Loudmouth,

<<You're onto something there, Poirot - WHY did Abbott authorise bugging back in 2009 ?
Wait a minute ...... I forget, was he Prime Minister back then ?>>

Great point --one of those inconvenient truths.
Another is this admission from the former Indonesian spy chief:

"Former intelligence chief Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono told the ABC's Newsline program he was not surprised by reports Mr Yudhoyono's phone had been tapped in 2009, as every embassy in the world carries out intelligence gathering.

"(In) every embassy in the world, there is a staff officer who carries out intelligence missions. What they do is [collect] information with any means, by all means, including... black methods," he said."

And it does make you wonder how much apologies are worth --including the stolen generation apology -- if they can be given so easily & expediently!

P,

"It's not easy for a nation to choose a PM with absolutely no diplomatic skills whatsoever."

Labor did it twice with Dudd and Juliar, who manufactured their own crises, and did more damage to our relationships than anyone else.

Considering that Indonesia has openly admitted spying on Australia, this diplomatic spat is being blown way out of proportion, I surmise by a government that sees an opportunity to get concessions from Aus with none from their side, and the posturing of Indonesian politicians prior to an election.

It is also not being helped by idiots in the ABC and guardian, and the green Tea party who have been bagging Indonesia for a decade, and suddenly want Abbott to grovel. It looks as though the Green Tea party is more interested in politics than the national interest.

While our relationship with Indonesia is not as toxic as when Indonesia was brutalising East Timor, we are still a long way from being allies. And while Indonesia would like to get us to commit not to spy on them while continuing to spy on us, I don't think that this is in any way in Australia's interest. I believe that this storm will blow over, and only an idiotic labor government would put all its cards on the table.

While for human trafficking Australia might need Indonesia more that the other way around, Indonesia is not stupid enough to sacrifice the relations with Aus and the US for something so trivial.

<<when Indonesia was brutalising East Timor>>

Just as a footnote to Shadow Ministers post above:

It is revealing that when Indonesians who were most aggrieved by the bugging were interviewed. They cited the bugging as up there with
Oz supporting East Timors independence.

In other words our first crime was to support East Timor right to self government --how do the lefty agitators feel about that one?
Should we apologize about that too?

Dear Shadow Minister,

Your claim about Kevin Rudd having no diplomatic
skills needs to be corrected.

Accordng to many world leaders Mr Rudd is one
of the most intelligent leaders they've ever
encoutnered. As a matter of fact the former
Prime Minister began his diplomatic career with
postings in Stockholm and Beijing from 1981 to 1988.
After the 2001 election Mr Rudd was appointed
Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs. He was appointed
Minister for Foreign Affairs in the Gillard Administration
and was sworn in on Sept. 14 2010, resigning from this
position two years later. His diplomacy played no small
part in our gaining a seat on the
Security Council.

In an unseen and unspoken part of Shadow Ministers mind a longing exists for Rudd to just for a while fix current issues Tea Party Tony can not.
Foxy we have two choices, one the man truly thinks that, surely unlikely from any one with an IQ in double figures.
Or he is self amusing at our expense.

Belly, Foxy,

It does make one wonder....how anybody could seriously defend this govt - responsible, as they are - in world record time - for the dumbest shambles under the guise of government ever.

Foxy,

They always say that to the face of a head of state. Wikileaks, showed that they really thought he was a complete pompous ass.

Foxy,
Before the influx of European migrants Australian crime was minimal. The viciousness of criminal activity is now down to the imports.
Sure some work and are worthy of what they get but the vast majority especially from the Balkan states and the Russian satellites liberated and now the South East Asian and Pacific Island bring their violence with them and bludge their way through life compliments of the Australian taxpayer.

Foxy. The last thing we need is a seat on the Security Council in fact we need to get right out of the United Nations and clean the riff raff out of our country.

Dear Poirot,

Take a look at the man who's our new PM.
It explains a great deal:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/dont-quote-me-says-tony-but-maaate-8230-20130816-2s1zy.html

This article also appeared in The Sydney Morning Herald.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Take a read of the link given above.
This is a man you support?

Dear Chris,

Criminal activity comes in all shapes and sizes from a
wide variety of sources. As does abusing the system.
As do ferals, and riff-raff.

In our history books you get that "The First Fleet arrived.
It brought 1000 English convicts." It didn't. It brought
1000 convicts but they came from a dozen different countries.
English jails were no respecters of nationality.
The first Italian arrived on January 26, 1788 -
Giuseppe Tuso. There were people from South Africa, there
were people from Ceylon, from India, from Spain, from
Portugal, from Hungary.

Constable Clod, what was the crime rate prior to 26th January 1788?
"Before the influx of European migrants Australian crime was minimal. The viciousness of criminal activity is now down to the imports." Is that a quote from Governor Bligh, talking about the Rum Corps?

Poriot.....It's not easy for a nation to choose a PM with absolutely no diplomatic skills whatsoever.

The time for talk is over.

Labor, after causing this mess did little but talk about Indonesia.

It's now time for real solutions, from real actions, and if Indonesia takes offense, then perhaps they could do something to stop the boats from leaving their waters, because after all, if they don't leave, they don't need to be stopped.

In any case, the way I see it we have two choices, choice one, stop them now, or choice two, wait until they come baring arms.

Our choice!

rehctub,

Or we could just indulge in Petite bourgeoisie hysteria?

Gawd!

The Green Tea party created this mess, and now the coalition has clean it up, just like the debt and the boats.

Labor truth is not just strange, it is an oxymoron.

"Just like the debt and the boats" increase the debt and hide the boats. SM how is the boat buy back going? Well the approx number bought equals zero, great scheme! I can't believe how quick Abbott has stuffed up even the fool Howard didn't stuff up as quick.

@Paul,

<<hide the boats>>

There is NO hiding of the boats, you've been reading too many Green propaganda pieces.

Everyone still gets weekly accounts of what happened.

The thing that irks you & your fellow lefties is now you don't get nightly SBS & ABC bleedin heart coverage of each arrival.

And the arrivees (aka asylum scammers) don't get to call back home from the dock of Christmas Island (courtesy of Oz taxpayers) to tell the relos to make the final payment to the smugglers and send off uncle Abdullah and aunty Fatima in the next boat.

Get used to it, your lot no longer pull the strings!

SPQR,

"Everyone still gets weekly accounts of what happened"

Hey, hey....that's very funny.

We're lucky Morrison even tells us where his fake pressers are taking place.

SM,

Here's another great oxymoron.

"Abbott" and "Statesmanship"

What everyone likes is good open govt; Statesmanship is a skill some have, but not all. You go around telling another country how to run their own country, there are going to be repercussions.
Indonesia has got the upper hand in this diplomatic disaster and Abbott has now got to lick their PM"S grass. It did not take long for Abbott to put his foot in it, as been the case for years, why should we expect him to change his ways. The Indonesians are now off side and their trust in AU is wreaked. A pig headed approach to a problem that should never have escalated. Abbott will never be welcome in Indonesia again.

P,

Abbott has shown himself to be a far better statesman that either of the labor idiots Dudd or Juliar.

Juliar's knee jerk response created a crisis where there was not one there before.

Taken from The Saturday Age, November 23, 2013.

"According to William Maley, Director of the
Australian National University's Asia-Pacific
College of Diplomacy, good diplomacy requires
"tact, understanding and a willingness to listen."

"The Coalition government, he reasons, has displayed
few of these attributes in dealing with Indonesia,
starting with its insistence on turning back boats
laden with asylum seekers to Indonesia."

"Ever since they were in opposition, Indonesia
has consistently warned them about this. They don't
like this unilateral approach to people smuggling."
Mr Maley staid, "They have just ignored the signals
from Jakarta, even as they have become stronger."

"When Indonesia began refusing requests to accept
asylum seekers picked up by Australian vessels,
Immigration Minister Scott Morrison said, "There's
no real rhyme or reason to Indonesia's behaviour."

"This was especially galling in Jakarta, which felt it
had made its position abundantly clear."

"The subtext was we are dealing with people who are not
rational. This is how it was perceived in Indonesia,"
Mr Maley stated.

It was in this context of already strained relations
that the spying revelations were exposed by documents
obtained by the former contractor Edward Snowden,
when he worked at the US National Security Agency.

Certainly Mr Abbott rankled Indonesia in the aftermath
of the revelations by not only failing to provide
an explanation, but the manner in which he conveyed
his sentiments. His remark that Australia's intelligence
activities were to "help our friends and our allies,
not to harm them." translated in Indonesia to mean -
"We're spying on you for your own good." This was
outrageous. And as a result Indonesia announced the
suspension of military and people-smuggling co-operation.

Crowning it all, Mr Abbott's pollster Mark Textor took
to Twitter to compare the Indonesian President, or
perhaps Natalegawa, to a "Pilipino porn star with ethics
to match."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-25/labor-leads-government-in-first-nielsen-poll-since-election/5113798
It has been my view stated here often that the polling was turning and fast.
And that claiming a mandate, for any thing, is not backed by truth.
I recommend we all strap our selves in we are going to see the bumpy ride this Government has had increase.
Those who can not see voters rushed to dump Labor, not elect Abbott are not looking.

Here we go, Belly.

This is how this extremist govt is now handling things in its gulags.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/25/immigration-detention-centres-no-longer-formally-report-childbirth

"The birth of children and clinical depression are no longer being formally reported as incidents in Australian detention centres, while self-harm events have been downgraded from critical to major, according to new guidelines from the detention service provider Serco.

Incident reports are how Serco communicates with the immigration department about events in detention centres, such as births, deaths, assaults and escapes.

The new reporting guidelines, which were obtained under freedom of information laws by Refugee Rights Watch, significantly alter the categories of incidents Serco is required to report to the immigration department. While some categories have been replaced or expanded, “birth of a child” and “clinical depression” have been removed, with no apparent replacements."

I wonder how long before we're shamed internationally for the running of our concentration camps?

Don't worry kids of the left.

In a dozen years or so there'll probably be enough immigrants, & new born, with no idea of our past labor governments to elect another bunch of fools.

At least then you will have someone to hold your hand as you jump off the cliff. Perhaps as you do, you will finally find out which way is up.

SM says Abbott is a far better statesman than rudd or julia. I think he has a firm grip on daydreams. Abbott is battling to put two words together without insulting someone. He is making movies so he can say something that does not have pot holes and corrugations in it.
Abbott went to the polls with a stack of lies that big he conned the people of AU. Besides telling the Indonesians how to run their country, he has created a diplomatic war, all because of inaction and bluster.
The indonesians have the upper hand, and fallout will take a long time to recover if ever.

Hasbeen,

Labor's standard reaction to an incident is to make a snap over reaction, and then spend months dealing with the fall out. They would rather be seen to be doing something even if it is the wrong thing.

The standard recognised protocol is not to discuss intelligence, especially in public. While this is not the populist thing to do, it is the correct thing to do, as confirmed by the public service.

Dear Shadow Minister,

One can always find excuses for one's actions. The
Libs had a totally different tactic when in opposition.
Now that they're being held under scrutiny
they hide under the old "dome of cilence," technique
and continue to blame Labor and the carbon tax for
everything. Of course it
is much easier to blame Labor than come up with answers.
However, this technique is starting to not be a good look
and even the editor of The Australian is beginning to
question it. As is Laurie Oakes.

The fiction that Labors recent actions on carbon tax is strange highlights a few things about its author and other trying to drown other opinions.
To days polls and the next ten, will/do highlight voters think differently.
Ten months of polling to come will continue to stress this country,s concerns with Abbott are far from gone.
*I fear and dread but consider likely a mid term dumping of the little Rodent and a return of Turnbull*.

'*I fear and dread but consider likely a mid term dumping of the little Rodent and a return of Turnbull* '

yep measure everything by the untrustworthy slimy feminist Government of the last 5 years. They are now headed by one of the masked men.

Dear runner,

You're beginning to give us the impression that
you're threatened by women being in power.
Was your mum a strong disciplinarian and not
very loving? That would explain things. And are
you hen-pecked by your wife?

Just asking.

Foxy;

"One can always find excuses for one's actions."

Really! what excuses should Abbott find for spying on Indonesia, especially since it was Labor that did it.

I suppose his apology should be "I apologize for the stupid action of spying on you, by our previous cretinous PM who was suffering from paranoid delusions."

SM you show your deep concern in that post.
GONSKY is the news today.
Stranger than fiction? only for those who beleived promises made during the election.
Pyne, gee just think, I once said he was a promising new comer!
Well he is a true younger Liberal,if you wanted to trash younger Liberals by putting many things in to one person you would invent this Billy Goat.
The snear long ago becoming the normal face, the self centered bloated ego.
And in the end an inability to remember what of his own words are true and what are his feeble effort at needling.
Stranger than fiction but leaking voters and that is going to increase.

Belly,

I see you are suffering from labor induced amnesia again.

My recollection of the election promises is that the coalition agreed to retain the funding but committed to review the administration of the funding which is exactly what Pyne is doing now.

Shadow Minister,

Excuses, as such are part and parcel of diplomacy -
perhaps a better word would be "explanations."
And that is all that the Indonesian President asked
for - an explanation. Mr Abbott as PM could have
handled the matter more smoothly. BTW - if you check your
facts - spying under the Howard government was also part
and parcel of what was done by our secret service.
And the Labor Government merely continued this tradition.
They didn't blame their predessors for having done it though.

Foxy,

Now you are making excuses. Spying is one of the oldest professions, so Howard and everyone does it. Only the Cretinous Rudd labor government was caught. Now the same idiots that caused the problem are pontificating on how to solve it, just as they are doing for the labor debt problem and the labor boat problem.

Strange noises indeed. Inaction. Turn the boats around, stop the boats, tow back, buy back, All Abbott's words, a con job. Blame anyone but Abbott. Why not blame the GG.

Hate to break it to you SM seems the boats are leaking.
Abbott wants to buy and stockpile the boats.
Because he knows a full term of him will see Aussies wanting refugee status in Asia.

Dear Shadow Minister,

It's so easy when you don't have the answers or the
solutions and things are going wrong due to the
inexperience and incompetence of the current PM
to blame Labor. And of course not giving
out information or answering questions is another
tactic that helps the situation.

However, this is all beginning to wear a bit thin
as the drop in polls indicates.

Foxy

'Dear runner,

You're beginning to give us the impression that
you're threatened by women being in power.
Was your mum a strong disciplinarian and not
very loving? That would explain things. And are
you hen-pecked by your wife? '

Wrong on both acounts. My mother growing up was in an orphanage for 10 years and was and is a wonderful woman. My wife is my best friend, very intelligent and beautiful to whom I have been happily married to for 30 years. Like to try again?

Dear runner,

No. Not at all, and I am happy for you.
Both your mum and your wife sound wonderful.
I was merely being curious as to why you seem
so anti-women in some of your posts is all.
Because your anti-women references are always
draped in vague and sweeping concepts. I thought
perhaps this was as a result of a family environment
which may have been cold, aloof and disciplinarian.
But, I'm glad I was wrong. Although I would like to
still know why you keep referring to the "sisterhood"
and other terms in a derogatory fashion. Most women
I know are wives, mothers, and grandmothers - who
simply get on with raising families, working, and
living their lives as best as they can.

As predicted, Abbott has performed superbly in the crisis. He has followed all the protocols, and achieved the right result without resorting to the megaphone as Labor did, and without compromising security.

Labor's behaviour however was s disgrace. The opposition in the event of such a crisis is expected to show bipartisan support, that Labor failed to do so is a blight on their character.

"TONY Abbott's letter to Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has been successful. That judgment is inescapable and incontestable.

The President, in his formal statement responding to the Prime Minister's letter, has spoken warmly of the relationship with Australia. He has also spoken warmly of Abbott, whom he describes as "my good friend". The President has committed to a process of consultation and negotiation with Australia to come up with a set of agreed protocols to cover intelligence sharing, among other things.

There are complications and troubles aplenty ahead. But so far, Abbott has handled one of the most complex international relations crises you could imagine extremely well. He has been calm throughout. He has stressed the key national interest that Australia has in its relationship with Indonesia. He has been warm and gracious towards the President.

He has also safeguarded Australia's key interests in maintaining its intelligence capabilities. He has stayed away from the obvious political points he could have made against Labor. He has responded to the President quickly, but with serious, indeed intense, deliberation at every stage.

There may still be very challenging days in this relationship to come, but whatever happens, this has been a solid performance by the Abbott government. It should give our allies, and the Australian people, a good deal of reassurance that this is a competent, sensible government fully conscious of the grave responsibilities it must shoulder in national security."

Dear Shadow Minister,

While we can all appreciate your loyalty to the
Party you serve and the Prime Minister you seem
to so admire and whose praises you consistently sing
on this forum - many people's perceptions differ a
great deal from the way you view things.

As the link below states -
"Abbott's failure to proactively defuse this situation
epitomises his approach with Indonesia."

"On both asylum seekers Abbott and the Coalition have
consistently refused to heed Indonesia's objections to
turning back boats..." And the other errors and blunders
made by Mr Abbott as listed in the following link -
paint a totally different picture to the one you're
presenting

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-21/mcrae-indonesian/5107232

"Competence" is not a word that anyone apart from supporters
such as yourself and other die-hards use in regards to Mr Abbott
and his team. We can only hope that things will improve
as time goes on - although none of us are holding our breaths.

Well said Foxy.
A question arises every day here, it will not be answered but could keep ten Doctors of Mental health busy for a life time.
Labor from both sides is told it sold out its followers.
By filling the ground Liberals left on their long march to the right.
So why do some continue to call us *leftists*
Why can most of us see the polls as they are but not conservatives.
It is my view that word *CONSERVATIVE* best describes todays Liberals and the pup following waiting its chance to bite its master the National party.
I think *true* Conservative hold the Liberals only for a while, Liberalism will return, as Conservatives kick in the party,s walls.
and find they are unwanted
But back to the truth, how can SM link us with his party,s new found home? the Tea Party?

Foxy,

The date is the 28th, why are you linking to an article from the 21st when the issue was just surfacing, and when the left whingers were all calling for Abbott to abandon all the accepted protocols and give Indonesia everything it was asking for, and in doing so compromise its intelligence operations. It is no wonder that every Labor politician is tagged as incompetent.

As I said, calm heads are needed not Labor talking heads, from the Green Tea party.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I linked to the kindest article I could find
on Mr Abbott. The later ones are quite scathing.
But you know that. Also as I stated earlier you
guys have to stop blaming other for your own
incompetence. You're not longer in oppostion -
it's now your responsibility to govern and give
us more than lies, slogans, secrets, and rhetoric.
And telling us how "adult" you are. Don't say it -
be adult!

Dear Belly,

Don't take any serious notice of Shadow Minister.
He's only doing his job on this forum.
If he's at all intelligent - what he thinks privately
on many issues is probably a different matter all together.
I quite enjoy inter-acting with him because even though
we rarely agree - he's always been a gentlemen - and that's
not a common quality on this forum.

Foxy, "he's always been a gentlemen - and that's not a common quality on this forum'

LOL, the gall and lack of insight of the very poster who posted this rude and spiteful remark earlier:

<'Dear runner,

You're beginning to give us the impression that
you're threatened by women being in power.
Was your mum a strong disciplinarian and not
very loving? That would explain things. And are
you hen-pecked by your wife?'>
Foxy, Monday, 25 November 2013 6:15:33 PM

and unabashed posted this 'apology' later to continue her brazen and unprovoked 'misogyny' attack, after being criticised (elsewhere) for her post:

<..I was merely being curious as to why you seem
so anti-women in some of your posts is all.
Because your anti-women references are always
draped in vague and sweeping concepts. I thought
perhaps this was as a result of a family environment
which may have been cold, aloof and disciplinarian..>
Foxy, Tuesday, 26 November 2013 6:31:21 PM

OTB morning bloke, are you leg pulling?
I think you are very near the last person to throw verbal stones at anyone.
HINT
If it is your aim to play verbal tennis try bringing a Racket to the court that has strings.

Dear Belly,

Don't be provoked by a poster whose posting
record is one made up of personal insults
especially against women and who does not
criticise or condemn a male making inappropriate
comments because they happen to agree with his own
vitriolic views, especially politically.

We should neither read anything he has to say nor
respond to him. His sole inter-action seems to
be to provoke in order to solicit a response.
Best ignored.

Quite true Foxy and I have told the bloke so, often.
Yes it is time to give him a miss.
Far too many good posters go and are missed because of such and its not worth it.
I am left to wounder why such an unskilled commentator is so intent on displaying that here so very often.

Dear Belly,

I suspect it's because he's one of those individuals
who doesn't just enjoy winding people up - it's their
sad lifestyle choice sitting in front of the computer
and attacking anonymously. Best to ignore, because as
a wise-person once said - "It's not possible to pick up
a turd by the clean end - try as you might."
(Or words to that effect).