The widely expected resignation of Rudd has finally occurred. The open contempt felt by most of his peers made this an inevitability. Rudd and Gillard have left the Labor party and the Australian economy far worse off than in 2007.

I wish them well, but hope that I have seen the last of them.

sm thanks for the memory's and the rant.
By now I have come to expect such from you,it is the best you can do.
History will be kinder to him, if not the 2010 knife handlers who now hold the reins of the party.

I gain hope in the clear and certain understanding no Government or its leader has and continues to shed its popularity as fast as our Tony,s mob.
*Electricity Bill* a new low in parliamentary behavior but worse is to come from a Woman who took just one day to enforce the view of many,she is a poisoned person unfit to hold any position not involving a mop and bucket.

Rudd resigns. The end of an error!

I’ve got to agree with that!

Its wonderful news! ( :>)

However, Labor has just moved right on into another error!

What a crying shame! They had the most excellent chance to pull their collective silly looking butts out of it.

Heaven knows we need Labor to be in a strong sustainability-oriented highly appealing position come the next election.

Because by then the Coalition error will in very bad need of termination!

Ohh… its all so sad! ( :>(

Tony Abbott and co won government by default. The Coalition has no vision for the future of Australia, they are very much in government what they were in opposition, a party of negativity. Unfortunately Australia will be poorer for their reign, ever how long that be.
Having said that, how does the alternative stack up, in my book, very poorly indeed. The Australia Labor Party is slowly but surely making itself irrelevant in Australian politics. Although the party has been damaged by the actions of criminals, people like Obeid in NSW and Thomson federally the problems goes much deep. Like their opponents Labor is lacking both on policy and vision, but worse still Labor lacks true leadership anywhere in Australia. In my state of NSW, John Robertson is a lame duck leader, in the other states Labor fairs no better. At the Federal level Bill Shorten will prove to be ineffective, like the second choice Anthony Albanese, Shorten is no visionary,nor is he a strong leader who can take command of the party, reform it, and return it to relevancy for the broader Australian community.
What Australia desperately needs is a strong third force in politics, and judging by the 'big two' there is much fertile ground for that third force to truly connect with the aspirations of the Australian voter. Considering that around 25% of people did not vote for Labor or Liberal and considering over 5% cast a vote for the buffoon Palmer, there is strong evidence of dissatisfaction in Australia with the present leadership on offer. The party best positioned to take advantage of this dissatisfaction in the long term is The Greens. With the necessary attributes of strong leadership, strong policy and strong direction The Greens can build on their already substantive base, broaden their constituency and replace the Labor Party as the alternative to the lackluster Conservatives now in office.

In the words of a pro Labor columnist:

"When he finally returned to the prime ministership, Gillard's term destroyed largely by Rudd's own sabotage, it was too late for Labor. Once again, the arguments will continue about how many seats he might have saved and whether he should have gone to the election quickly or waited, but Labor - the party that had swept to power on Rudd's popularity in 2007 - was soundly defeated.

Now Labor can put Kevin Rudd behind it and Rudd himself might get on with his life. But he leaves behind an astonishing trail of collateral damage: including former ministers Nicola Roxon, Simon Crean, Craig Emerson, Martin Ferguson, Greg Combet, Stephen Smith and Peter Garrett, and many staffers, bureaucrats and colleagues burnt out by Kevin Rudd's ambition, which burnt beyond his own capacity to control it."

The master of grand gestures and empty promises, the only good he did was make people remember how good it was under the coalition.

Well thank god for that. It is a pity he didn't do it 15 years ago. A huge number of Oz people are now, & well into the future, much worse off than they would have been, if he had never been seen, or born.

Do be careful there Luddy. Fearless forecasts, such as you have just made, along with those of most the lefties here, have a habit of turning out to be wishful thinking uttered in hope, & totally wrong. Best get used to Tony as PM, he is going to be there for a long time.

I wonder when KRudd will take up his UN appointment. Surely the UN will be rewarding him handsomely for doing so much damage to a first world country.

Shadow Minister and Hasbeen
You and probably many others do not understand how Howard and Costello attempted to operate the Australian economy in an unsustainable area of the Fiscal Policy Space so aptly described recently by Professor Stephanie Kelton in an address to the Fields Institute in Toronto Canada. Her talk and the accompany slides are readily available by clicking on her name on the right hand column at; www.neweconomicperspectives.org
and following the links to the talk or the slides. Slides 48-54 cover my argument.

The main point is that that the three sector balances that are used to describe an economy add (sum) to zero in any accounting period.

The sustainable fiscal space is where the private sector is continually accumulating savings and if the Current Account is in balance or deficit (the situation in the Howard era) that happy situation can only be achieved if the Government Sector runs a deficit. As the UK Treasury economist Wynne Godley wrote, "An increase in private debt relative to income can go
on for a long time, but it cannot go on forever.” (Godley, 2000)

It therefore follows that Howard and Costello were very poor economic managers and were responsible for the more extensive deficit choices forced on the Rudd/ Gillard cabinets.

The economic and political discussions at OLO would improve if those making comments understood some economic facts of life.

Mr Abbott paid tribute to Kevin Rudd saying his
retirement is a "significant event in the history
of Parliament."

"To lose someone who has been one of the figures in
the Parliament and one of the big figures in the life,
the public life of our country over the best part of
two decades..."

"As a political opponent, but as someone who has known
the Member for Griffith quite well for a long time, I salute
him and I wish him and his family all the best for the
future and I express my confidence that one way or another
he will continue to serve our country."

Mr Abbott also paid tribute to Mr Rudd's apology to
Indigenous Australians calling it, "something to crown an
amazing public life."

"Much as I admire and appreciate and put on a huge pedestal
his immediate predessor (John Howard), in this respect at
least, he had lacked the imagination to grasp that opportunity
and the Member for Griffith, Kevin, he had the decency to see
that here was something that needed to be done."

"He did it with courage, with decency, compassion, and that
alone is an extra-ordinary achievment."

Further heartfelt tributes continued from all sides of
politics. From Malcolm Turnbull, Bill Shorten, Anthony Albanese,
to name just a few. It appears that at least some people believe
in the old adage of not kicking a man when he's down

Paul,

Your comment "Tony Abbott and co won government by default." is partially true, Both Labor and the Greens contributed mightily to the election of Abbott by shafting the voters with a tax they didn't want and were promised they wouldn't have. Both parties shed vast numbers of voters who moved to the coalition.

Abbott also said that there is no diplomatic posting to be created for Dudd, probably as there is no country sufficiently despised.

I'm sure you are right Foyle.

Which one Howard or Costello had the gun at KRuddy's back forcing him to stuff the illegal boat people system. Do you know which one forces him to try to hand our future to the UN, or try to get us into the EU carbon trading scheme.

Do you think little Julia did the school hall scheme without telling him.

I am surprised you still think quoting academics at us, those people who want to believe global warming is caused by CO2, as if their ideas make sense.

We have long known that these people should be given monopoly money to play with in their ivory towers, & kept locked up where they can do less harm.

Paul thinks we will turn to the Greens.
Wishful thinking; People are already realising that the Greens are
a lifeboat crewed by refugees from the Communist Parties and carrying
passengers that are the ideological descendants of Marx, Lenin and company.
The environment is what they argue about, not what they believe.

The cynical Whatshername Galah'd (Obama's pronunciation) was worse with her gender and class wars.

Amazing how Fabian socialist 'Progressives' demand million dollar homes for themselves.

Paul 1405 well said, SM be proud of being wrong, as usual.
For every one of the 360 degrees a thought on Rudd exists.
Therefor most must be wrong.
A man we will value in history far more than this chook pen of warn out Roosters we call Government today.
And far better than any faction Lord in my party will be seen in the full light of Labors membership driven reform.
Madam speaker let insults flow in a one way direction yesterday but it is her who must confront her own *NASTY PERSONALITY*each time she looks in the mirror.

Hasbeen,
You obviously think J M Keynes and Joan Robinson knew nothing about international economics and financial matters.

I tried to point you to some of the most competent up to date writing on economic matters. Everything posted at New Economic Perspectives is based on evidence available from analyses of actual events. I pointed to slides included in a presentation by a competent analyst. Your only defence was to change to other the subjects.

The stimulus packages of 2008-10 achieved what they set out to achieve, they stimulated the economy to rescue Australia from a looming jump in unemployment that was starting to arise due to the collapse of demand. That collapse arose because the members of the Private Sector started to see that they needed to repair their individual balance sheet. That need was due to the way the Howard and Costello had decided that they could reduce the Government Sector Deficit balance while running a persistent Current Account deficit.

It is now being widely accepted that an iron law of economics is that all three balances cannot simultaneous be in either surplus, or deficit, in any accounting period and that a variation in one sector must move at least one of the two other sectors in the opposite direction

Foyle,

As soon as I see a left whinger describe someone as Competent, I get suspicious that they are talking about an unknown that is trying to cloak left wing ideology in theory.

I went through some of the theory, (having a degree in economics) and almost immediately saw a hole you could float a ship through. SK's lecture revolves around the role of government expenditure in the growth of the economy. The singular missing point is that growth is generated mostly by the private sector, and the countries that do best are those with a light touch, providing regulation that is minimally burdensome, and services that are public goods in the strictest definition, whilst not getting involved in non public goods.

The kilometers of red tape generated by labor, and the burdensome regulation is largely at the heart of why the Australian economy is so sluggish.

Interesting to me who is no expert in formal economics.
However from other reading economists seem to think growth can go on
forever whereas it is declining almost everywhere.

A few economists, not related to Galileo, are convinced that we are
entering an era of zero growth and/or contraction.
The reasons they give seem reasonable to me.
ie rising energy costs and imminent decline in production.

Bazz growth must go on, as long as we are silly enough to keep increasing the population. More people must produce, & use more.

The most ridiculous thing in Oz today is that we have voted with our birth rate to hold or even reduce our population, but policy advisers & politicians want to second guess us, & keep immigration ridiculously high.

I don't know how we get rid of these people who some how become planners. I have yet to see any of them do anything that could be considered smart, so why do we have the twits?

Hasbeen you said;
Bazz growth must go on,

Well, must it ?
An increase in population will just mean that any pie will be cut into
more smaller pieces.
The "Big Australia" policy is nothing short of madness and indeed could
trigger a collapse of the Australian economy to the extent that the
government could not pay pensions and the dole. The public service
could not be paid and everything would be come very local in our local
communities and the highest level of effective government would be
the local councils.
You and I might not see it, but if governments do not take steps to
prepare the country it could happen before our children retire.

Why bother giving another creep politician oxygen? Just ignore him. This is why he weeps so much.

The best thing about Kevin Rudd, was that he proved that the leader of the labor party had little say, as it was the faceless men that pulled the strings, while the best thing about Julia Gillard, was the way she squirmed her way back in in 2010, as she buried the labor party for years to come.

In fact, those six years were almost worth it, almost!

<< Bazz growth must go on, as long as we are silly enough to keep increasing the population. More people must produce, & use more. >>

Yes Hazz!

<< The most ridiculous thing in Oz today is that we have voted with our birth rate to hold or even reduce our population, but policy advisers & politicians want to second guess us, & keep immigration ridiculously high. >>

YESSS!!

If only you were as sensible on other subjects as you are on this one!! ( :>)

.

<< The "Big Australia" policy is nothing short of madness and indeed could trigger a collapse of the Australian economy >>

Absolutely, Bazz.

Rudd completely didn’t get this. Gillard did… but was quashed by the faceless men… with the big-donations big-business lobby standing closely behind to make sure that the faceless men told Gillard to zip it, and to keep on with super-high immigration and manic expansionism!

Bearing in mind that I do at times feel more romantically idealistic than at other times, as perhaps most of us do from time to time, I must admit that I find my present emotional state to be not entirely devoid of some sadness in the aftermath of seeing shots of Kevin yesterday.

Part of him seemed none to keen ... and pain ...

Perhaps in me it is merely the same reaction that perhaps many of us feel when seeing anybody in distress, as after all, another thought within me reminds me that in "my book" Kruddy is "guilty" of more than one offence for which I would have him sent to the "Hanging Judge," as an old mate from the Feds used to affectionately refer to it. ;-)

Even so, is there not some real fire left in the old boy yet? Or is it in reality too late to ButterFly?

Perhaps it turns on how much of a change of Heart he really had, and I believe that the Chinese would agree that it was, how shall I say, not an auspicious time for such a decision.

and *KruddConon* (and to reminisce just for a moment)

" ... What is best in life? ... "

" ... Crush your enemies, drive them before you, and hear the lamentation of the Red Headed Woman. ... "

(HaHaHa)

I was watching something of *Kill Bill 2* last night, and noted with interest when Bill's brother said something to the effect that the real end of some quality people was (and perhaps still is) retirement.

..

and as an old friend once said:

" ... don't kid yourSelf that you can Love others anymore than what you Love yourSelf. ... " (Master Tedbury of Sidmouth - and perhaps for that reason, if for no other, I would walk those shores one day and search for the secret "stones" and see the old places of fortification.)

And what of those who re-ushered him in again? Would you not also go to them in considering how to proceed?

Hasbeen & Ludwig,
When you read comments by economists and financial
commentators, note how they only mention money, either printing it or
changing interest rates or various manipulations etc.

They seem to think the whole system can be controlled that way, which
is why they are desperate to get growth going again.
They never allude to anything but money as if energy and materials are
not involved at all.
Without surplus energy there can be no growth. China has been using up
all the surplus energy which is why the economies of the rest of the
world are having growth problems.
Extra Chinese demand is being met by increasing prices to the rest of
the world to reduce their demand.
Once, about 2017, when tight oil production slows then we will see a
bigger price rise and perhaps contraction in our economy.

Ludwig, regarding population, it is the same story, an increase in
population means a demand for growth, but growth is now very difficult
so it has to mean that the product that was available for the previous
population has to be shared around the larger population.

<<..Coming from the center right
I have no love for extreme politics on either end of the spectrum,>>

the great..joe bejelklie barbed wires..fence sitting..
extremist-right..whingers..becomes middle..sorry [..center right]..thus center left...become extreme left..and extreme lefties..are simply..terrorists

great Orwellian double think..oh..shaded maestro
the admirable criton..

[..i..must spell-check..that]

[by..the sun-struck/some downer..]..clearly..extremist left wing/whinger..

lets reset it..the other way
middle of the road=extreme/mist

and left and right
are thus revealed as extreme
narco extremist..or..sparko extreemlypist

left and right only mean any thing..to..extremists
who..*all..feel..they alone=middle of the road
and its their opposition..

that falls into righter/brighter whiter
than..the middle of the road..i claim as mine
or the lower more extremely off the chart lefty..who
dont even..know what..middle piddle fiddle/riddle even means

middlre means you copity sweet..when both side hate you
but by your mates are you revealed..but not reviled..indeed loved and respected

indeed the very same fish..even..kevin rudd
..in the end..rejected..he didnt want to win..he just didnt want anyone to..say..they..beat him..[but they did]..yeah he was a dreamer..but we all knew that..but..his dream..he was better than the nightmare/reality..john how hard left us with...

but thenyou center right lot..got juliar..
[via the middle/of the rodes..leftie..bill short odds..the middle man for..the extreme right..the middle fiddle man..

just like you putting thyself..in the midst[middle]..
riddle..where is the middle..rode piddle riddle..in the muddle?

[right..is so often completely wrong..but all..that
only makes you half right..half wrong ya nong]

http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2013/meltdown/

You only have to read this to realize what a joke Labor has been for the last 6 years.

A true bustard to the end, KRudd is not officially resigning until the end of the week.

Thus he will cause the by-election to replace him to be put off to February, rather than be held this year. Perhaps the peanut wants a bit more cry time.

He misses no chance to prove he was never worth feeding.

If he stays around much longer I think I could get to dislike him.

Dear Shadow Minister,

An even sadder issue is the current government.
Here's what voters think of Mr Abbott and Co:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-letters/tony-abbott-silence-on-indonesian-boats-shows-contempt-for-voters-20131110-2x9yf.html

And the following link also tells us that:

"Mr Abbott, whose attack-dog politics created the perfect chaotic
conditions for "Government by Stealth" to flourishn now
presents himself as Mr Stability... If he can keep the government
process operating silently he knows he will retain support from
the stealthy."

Apparently they're people who obiously place a low priority
on transparency and accountability of government.

"He needs to keep politics off the front page and the TV news
which is where 3 in 4 Australians get their main political
information... He need new Speaker Bronwyn Bishop to keep
a lid on Question Time to avoid disturbing the peace."

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/hate-politics-its-just-tony-abbott-operating-by-stealth-20131112-2xefr.html

Foxy,

Accusing the coalition of a lack of transparency is gob smacking hypocrisy given the can of worms that is emerging from the records of the NBN and the BER debacle that Labor absolutely refused to allow any scrutiny by the productivity commission, or open the books, or the savage attacks on the press when Juliar's involvement in the AWU corruption began to surface, and when Craig Thomson's brothel creeping became news.

These histrionics may get the attention of other left whingers, but not with the majority of voters who are not that stupid.

Another thread that see,s Shadow of a man call folk lefty,s.
He is quite right twice so in fact.
Almost every one is left of him.
And as the ALP watched Conservatives charge to the right, Labor took up the spot vacated.
So was the governments of Menzies Gorton Billy Mac Marn and some of Howard,s policy,s leftist?
If you think like SM yes indeed.

Oh Foxy, you had better quit while the quitting is good.

Really, that is about the most pathetic post I have seen from you.

It really is !

if your not getting flak
your not over the target

flacking trolls means your on..the right track
the want to rubb..the rudd..not expose the poser..[become recluse]

he wants to get..to..where howard was
just him walking..media filming..while
the news reader ..numbly..reads off the daily..flim flam

Dear Bazz,

You're entitled to your opinion but not the
facts as the Sydney Morning Herald attests.
I didn't write the article. The two given
links are what many voters currently feel.
And you may not like it Sir, but that's the
reality most of us are faced with today with
the current government, sadly.

Folks,
The crudd has really hit the fan now.
Someone has been eavesdropping on the "Bang Bangs" phone and worse his family.
He has withdrawn their Ambassador and are spitting chips.
Are we about to go to war with them.
Sooner the better I say.
But do tell, if it is true then someone here must have authorized it and I don't think Tony has been around long enough to be the one.
Could it have been the previous LABOR government?
Or is there a government within the government that the public and the government don't know about.
Almost sounds like a conspiracy doesn't it?
Just who, here in Australia are being listened to?
There's too many worms in this can I'm afraid.

Foxy,

A single swallow does not a summer make. Neither does a letter or two to the editor represent the "voters"

From your ex FM:

"FORMER foreign minister Bob Carr has described a decision by the Abbott government to give the Sri Lankan navy two patrol boats as "sound policy" and revealed that Labor contemplated doing the same thing."

So it would appear that the irritating whining coming from the left whingers is about Abbott implementing essentially what was policy shared by Labor.

Dear Shadow,

It's not just a "single swallow," as you'd like to
believe. Do your research. There's more than just
"one or two letters" to read on the web - and they are
all expressing the same sentiment - "Not happy Tone!"

As for Bob Carr? He was never "my" foreign minister.
I had no say in his appointment - neither do I agree
with his views on many issues, certainly not on the
treatment of asylum seekers.

Shadow Minister,

<<A single swallow...>>

Speaking of birds, Poirot's and Foxy's increasingly desperate attempts to dig dirt --any dirt will do -- are making them look increasingly like the proverbial headless chicken.

Foxy, "As for Bob Carr? He was never "my" foreign minister. I had no say in his appointment - neither do I agree with his views on many issues, certainly not on the treatment of asylum seekers"

In saying that you show lack of any real empathy for asylum seekers and particularly for the children who are put on boats operated by criminal gangs by relatives who gamble the children's lives to realise their own economic aspirations, which for many is apparently a life sponsored by Wonderful Centrelink'.

In sledging Carr to get at your target 'Tone'(?!), you conveniently forget too that Bob Carr was supported by the then PM Julia Whatshername and her Labor government.

SPQR surely you jest?
NO balanced commentator in defense of truth could excuse your self and SM then charge the Lady,s with your crime.

Question time and the first subject was yes spying.
Bill Shorten, not quite looking his best, was statesman like.
Abbott? well bought back memory's of Brendon Nelsons dreadful address in reply to Rudd,s sorry speech.
Telling? the eye contact the leader of Abbott,s red necks,the Nationals made with Abbott.
Unspoken? maybe but my reading was you are no match for him mate.

Dear SPQR,

Poirot and I are not "digging dirt," we're
simply responding with facts. As for your
calling us "headless chickens?"

Haven't you read about the headless chicken that
lived for a year and a half after being decapitated?
The chicken not just survived but went on living and
became famous. The chicken earned tremendous fame and
fortune after decapitation. It became an institution in
Colorado where every 3rd weeked of May people celebrate
the annual "Headless Chicken Day."

So you see there are some creatures who have the ability
to not only survive under extreme duress - but they
thrive on it. The motto here is - never give up.
Everyone has obstacles to overcome. They are our
greatest teachers.

Foxy,

Don't take metaphors too literally.

There were about 10m voters, and a handful of left whingers indignantly writing to a newspaper does not represent anything more than a handful of left whingers.

And Carr is as left whinge an FM as you are likely to get. Your new FM is Julie Bishop.

Dear Shadow Minister,

As you know you can fool some of the people some
of the time, but not all of the people all of
the time, and in attempting to gag Australia
the current government will soon realize that
voters will eventually demand answers, and then it
shall be interesting to see whether the support
for this government will drop or not. Not all voters
place a low priority on transparency and accountability
of government. As it is the current government
didn't sweep into power with the massive stats
that were initially predicted and although they did
well - they will be and must be held to account.

As for Julie Bishop? Her achievements are yet to be
made. She hasn't been in the seat long enough to warm it.
Hopefully she will do a better job than Mr Carr.

Foxy,

While a few voters (generally left whingers that want the coalition not to stop the boats) want a running commentary, the reality is that most voters don't want talking heads, they want results.

Many voters were fooled by the talking heads of Dudd and Juliar, but as you say, they have wised up to Labor's complete failure to deliver.

I see Car is still chattering away now giving advice to the government on how to handle the current Indonesian problem.
Doesn't he know the is, was, and always will be a has-been and a nobody.
Go away you despicable man who couldn't even capture a good Aussie girl.

Dear Shadow Minister,,

We unfortunately don't know many results of the
current government's action because they're a
secret. So I'm afraid your arguments simply
don't wash or hold very much credibility.
But keep on telling us how wonderful they are.
Fortunately people are now beginning to question
the simplistic rehearsed rhetoric, and blaming
the past is beginning to wear a bit thin.

Foxy, "We unfortunately don't know many results of the current government's action because they're a secret"

You are only saying that to sledge a government you don't like.

You are aware of the logistical reasons for not making a media circus out of the progress of the boats at sea and possible arrivals. For starters it gives the criminals much-needed intelligence and they use it to demand payments and to promote their 'travel' packages to others.

Regrettably, yet again you show no empathy for the people whose lives are risked by the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling.

<<Bill Shorten...was statesman like>>

Yeah, but what state was the man representing? certainly not the interests of Oz!

otb,

No, again your accusations and assumptions are wrong.
I am not as you put it -" sledging a government
I don't like".

Unlike you I am not stirring, attacking,
et cetera. I am simply stating facts that the
current government is
not being transparent or accountable, which they said
they would be before the election. And
the excuses that they give for not answering
questions in Parliament don't add up because
the questions that are being asked are not a threat
to any of their "operational" involvements.

Australians do not want or need "government by
stealth." That goes against democratic traditions
and is the beginning of an authoritarian system.
And that should be a concern to us all.

And I am not alone in being concerned:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/smh-letters/tony-abbott-silence-on-indonesian-boats-shows-contempt-for-voters-20131110-2x9yf.html

Foxy, "No, again your accusations and assumptions are wrong. I am not as you put it -'sledging a government I don't like'".

Well, that is a big wobbly for a start. You, Old Tin of Fruit Poirot and a few others were foaming at the mouth even before the new government members visited the GG to be appointed.

You need not have worried, 'Wonderful Centrelink' has not closed, and the victim industries and multiculturalism that constantly bleed taxpayers white haven't been disturbed.

The first concern here though is that take the moral podium as a 'do gooder', but you show no empathy for the people whose lives are risked by the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling.

OTB,

These left whingers are not very bright. When they don't have Labor's talking heads giving continuous commentary, they are put in the uncomfortable position of having to try and think for themselves.

Getting all the information on illegal boat arrivals at the end of the week puts a strain on their ability to add, or to determine that the 5 boats arriving with 340 illegals in October 2013 is about 1/10th of those arriving in July 2013, and that Abbott is competently keeping his promise to Australia.

otb,

Where is your logic. How does asking for transparency
and accountability from our current government
translate into not showing concern about asylum
seekers. That's quite a stretch even for you.
And as a voter and a citizen of this country I am
quite entitled to criticize the actions of our
government. It's called freedom of speech and is part and
parcel of a democratic tradition. Freedom of speech is
a safeguard against unjust rule. People should be free
to criticize the laws of their community and the
policies of their government. That's not "sledging"
and a government is less likely to impose unjust laws
on people who can openly criticize their decisions.

Without freedom of speech, people cannot have complete
political freedom. That's why gagging Ministers should be
a concern to us all.

Foxy, I can see what otb is on about, sorry you cannot.

Two posts above are amusing if nothing else.
Gillards knifing of Rudd was a team/right faction effort.
History will not ignore once she got the job, holding it for another, she could not win a raffle.
Rudd,s time has come he had no choice he had to go.
But I suspect he will be better treated by history than, yes truly think it Tiny Target Tony Abbott.

Dear Bazz,

I understand only too well what otb is all about.
Hence my obligation to correct him.
He twists and manipulates and attributes things
to posters and makes assumptions about them
that are totally wrong. He is a cyber bully, and
a nasty piece of work. And I'm not the only one
who thinks so on this forum and when challenged he
ducks for cover. A charming man - you may well think
I and others don't!

Foxy,
You seem to miss one very salient point.
The government was elected to govern, and by a reasonable majority.
Therefore they may govern as they see fit.
If you don't like the way they govern you have the right to reject them at the next federal election.
What a government might do may seem immoral to you but nevertheless they are the government elected by the people to govern.

Dear Chris,

I'm not questioning the government's right to
govern. What I am concerned about is their
obvious total lack of transparency and accountability
and the PM's gag on his Ministers especially during
Question Time in Parliament. This I find goes against
our democratic tradition and against the promise to be
transparent and accountable that the PM made prior to
the election.

Foxy,

You just want your views to prevail.

I am merely one of many you turn on when your opinions are questioned, and your trademark cheering others on to bully posters who disagree with your views is exercised rather regularly to say the least.

Deaths at sea (in Europe in shipping containers and the like) are the work of the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling. While you take the moral podium as a 'do gooder', you show no empathy for the people whose lives are risked by the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling.

Anyone can go to an Australian embassy anywhere in the world and claim asylum. Doubtless you and other Left 'Progressives' applauded Messrs Assange when they he used the front door of a foreign embassy to seek and obtain refuge to avoid answering allegations made against him. Of course to do the same at an Australian embassy the claimant would be obliged to substantiate his claims.

The Australian population voted overwhelmingly for government to curtail people smuggling. That is why the previous Labor government changed its failed policy prior to the election. However the electorate was unconvinced that the man (Rudd) and the political party (Labor) that emasculated the previous successful policy in the first place were credible and would do their honest best to do what they promised very grudgingly and late to do.

otb,

No I do not want my views to prevail.
On the contrary. The reason I enjoy this
forum is having my views challenged.
BTW - my views are not set in concrete and
there are many posters who challenge me and
make me think. Unfortunately you don't happen
to be one of them. For the simple reason that
I'm interested in having a discussion, all you're
interested in is an argument and no matter what
I say or do, you always find fault, never reading
what I am trying to say, the points that I am
trying to make, you continuously stoop to personal
insults and then accuse me of not responding to you.
What else can I assume but the fact that you're either
an ignorant man or totally unhinged and best ignored.

Foxy,

You always try to divert the thread. Here, attack this:

<Deaths at sea (in Europe in shipping containers and the like) are the work of the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling. While you take the moral podium as a 'do gooder', you show no empathy for the people whose lives are risked by the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling.

Anyone can go to an Australian embassy anywhere in the world and claim asylum. Doubtless you and other Left 'Progressives' applauded Messrs Assange when they he used the front door of a foreign embassy to seek and obtain refuge to avoid answering allegations made against him. Of course to do the same at an Australian embassy the claimant would be obliged to substantiate his claims.

The Australian population voted overwhelmingly for government to curtail people smuggling. That is why the previous Labor government changed its failed policy prior to the election. However the electorate was unconvinced that the man (Rudd) and the political party (Labor) that emasculated the previous successful policy in the first place were credible and would do their honest best to do what they promised very grudgingly and late to do.>

otb,

1) Kindly indicate where I have ever shown no
empathy for asylum seekers.

Your accusations are unfounded.

2) You cannot make political assumptions about people
you don't know simply because they hold certain politicians
and governments to account.
You have no way of knowing where I stand politically.
Left, Right, or Centre. Most people fluctuate in their
views depending on the circumstances involved.

Again your accusations have no merit.

3) I am well aware of how the people of Australian voted.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/abbott-boat-plan-as-unworkable/story-e6frg8yo-122625283136

cont'd ...

My apologies I left off a number from the link I provided.
It should be:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/abbott-boat-plan-as-unworkable/story-e6frg8yo-1226252831368

Foxy,
Again I say to you the government can govern any way they choose. We gave them that right. If they choose not to be transparent or they gag debate in the parliament because they have the numbers it is the right we gave them under our system of democracy.
The only time their accountability comes into question is at the next election when you can vote for your choice.
Now there might well be a moral question and a point in ethics here in this methodology of government but it does not alter Abbott's right to govern any way he feels.
There are two ways we can change government
One through the ballot boxes which will never return Labor to power again and secondly through revolution and Australians are too lethargic and under armed to do that.

Dear Chris,

We have restraints on government power.
They are formal restraints such as laws
limiting the exercise of power, constitutional
arrangements for the impeachment of officials
and guarantees of free criticism by voters, the press,
and other media. What is more important than the formal
restrictions on the abuse of government power are the
informal restraints. These restraints, expressed in
widely shared norms and values, set limits the public
officals dare not violate. These underlying assumptions
about the "rules of the game" are an invisible but vital
part of any democratic system.

Also a tolerance of criticism and of dissenting opinions is
fundamental to democracy. A democracy requires its citizens
to make informed choices. If citizens or their
representatives are denied access to the information they need
to make these choices, or if they are given false or
misleading information, the democratic process becomes a sham.
It is therefore important that the media not be censored,
that citizens and their representatives have the right of
free speech, and most importantly that public officials tell
the truth. Otherwise the people cannot use their rights in a
meaningful way.

Foxy,
I am sorry. I did not realise that you actually believe that we are living in a democracy.
A democracy is where the majority rules. Here in Australia the only rule come from the minorities.

Dear Chris,

I recently came across a comment from a reader on another
website that struck a cord with me. I hope that it will
with you as well:

"If we want real solutions we have to work together.
We have to collaborate. We have to respect each other.
We have to be bigger human beings than to conduct
ourselves by the lowest common denominator of behaviour."

Cheers.

" Oh where, oh where, has our KRuddy gone? "

" Oh where, oh where, can he be?"

" With his tale cut short and his nose grown long, oh where, oh where can he be?"

..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI-Nx8aEkfE

Foxy, the lowest common denominator is and always has been the gun.
It has also been the great arbiter otherwise democracies would not have adopted it as a national pacifier.

Dear DreamOn,

Seeing as you seem to like rhymes, here's another
to add to your collection:

"Greedy, greedy, is Mr Abbott,
Gobbling everything is his bad habit,
But sour and tart is not to his taste,
So sorry and sad will be his fate!"

Dear Chris,

Talking about weapons?

Most of us have evolved from that outmoded way
of thinking. The "John Wayne" macho imagine is
so yesterday!