Once more a topic likely to bring other threads if so this one may not get posted,OK by me.
However I think we have much to look at in the likely impacts/results of anew election.
Maybe the first impact of very many is the different views of voters on that day than at the last election.
And surely the small party will not win a seat the second time around, what then? another high court challenge?

Belly,

Here's a fairly comprehensive assessment of the possibilities from Antony Green.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2013/11/whats-going-on-with-the-wa-senate-counct.html

Poirot,
I don't know about Mr Green other than he is possibly the smartest political analyist around today but my take is that many who voted one way will, in the recent light of events, change their vote and we may see a whole new ball game.
Bad luck to anyone that was in and will now be out.
What pss me off is that no one gets sacked or imprisoned for the stuff-up and nobody ever will be. At the least the boss should fall on his sword.

Come on Chris, the Electoral mob do a good job as does the Commissioner.

Australia is one of the few countries where the ones that made the mistake would reveal it.

Let us all be thankful that we live in a country where there is a Court of Disputed Returns and not mobs on the streets.
Our system may be old fashioned but it works.

I do not think the boss should fall on his sword, here or ever when the lost votes may be sabotage.
Silly? maybe but how easy would it be for some one wanting anew election.
Antony Green has no equal in his field, not in this country.
Now it is almost sure a different outcome will come from the almost sure new election.
Then? a lot of maybes but in my opinion a further test in the high court will come on behalf of the new Senators who will not be reelected.
Greens are calling for senate reform.
OK me too,But why are they saying mark the first six boxes above the line?
5 at the most party,s get enough votes to get seats under ANY SYSTEM RESPECTING VOTERS INTENTIONS.
Why not let us in every election control our own preferences by voting in one square and if we wish not giving preferences?
We may be the winners for this lost stolen or destroyed votes.
A second chance at voting now the system has shown to be flawed may serve us all and promote voting reform in the house now in-festered with less than perfect people.
Likely out come of an election?
My thoughts are no sporting party and greens need luck to win the seat they now claim, Palmer? Surely WA would think long and hard about him?

I would never dare to point the finger at any party or individual but if I was Sherlock Holmes I would be looking in the garbage bins of anyone within cooee of the recount who was associated with the party who stood to lose on the first count.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/re-run-of-election-could-weaken-power-in-the-senate/story-fn59niix-1226753067391
The possible out comes of this new election are many.
The link points to one, winning 3 Senate seats out of the six is no easy job.
And no new Government , having released some of its harsh intentions can do other than be upset by this scandal.
Just as the impacts are many the reason these votes are no longer in the hands of AEC is troubling.
Did one of the party,s not the main two surely, have a hand in this?
If so it is by far the worse thing to take place in my lifetime.
The link undervalues the ability to think of West Australian voters.
Surely they will think just about the opposite to the link.
Knowing one Senator got less than a quarter of one percent of the votes to win a seat.
For that reason if no other we should expect a more formal, and totally different out come.
And too if our politicians care for us Senate voting reform will be voters reward for being forced to vote twice.

KarlX And what are you implying? In my many years of scrutineering on election day I have found the AEC Officers unwavering in their fairness. As for "someone" binning 1375 votes from one party not possible. Could have there been a mathematical error in the first place and these votes never existed, I don't know. If you are an observer of the count and want to get yourself kicked out just start touching the ballot papers. All the scrutineer for party A does is watch the votes going to party B, can challenge any vote, just don't challenge your own votes. Then the officer goes through the challenged pile and decides in or out without question from anyone. The senate votes are the last counted, they do the lower house first.

I would have to agree with KarlX.
Somebody did something very naughty which goes to the heart of our democracy.
The whole lot working there in that counting room should be sacked and never allowed near a vote again and the boss resign from the top.
Saying sorry is very popular today but it doesn't alter the outcome.
These people are like referees on a football field
Make a mistake that costs one side the game and there is no penalty for them only the players.

Chris, I thought you were an X copper, don't you look for evidence first? How did you operate, determine they were guilty first, then "find" the evidence?
In this case ultimately the Chief of the AEC has to take responsibility for any error. I do not subscribe to the conspiracy theorists with their "Somebody did something very naughty". But then again it must have been "dem' der' varmints, those pesky Greens." right Chris?

I agree with you Paul, if everything in Australian society was as fair as the Electoral Commission then there'd be no problems anywhere.

Anyone that could nick 1,000 plus votes wouldn't bother; he/she would be busy performing magic and on a World stage at that.

Is Mise, We agree on something. If a individual was able to steal 1375 senate votes, what would he do with them, stick em' up his jumper. We are very lucky to have such a fair voting system, fairer that that so called bastion of democracy, America, where voter are regularly disenfranchised, particularly African American in the Deep South and Florida.
Although I must say our system is not a patch on that employed in Haiti by Popa Doc, as opposed to his son Baby Doc, for fairness and transparency. When he conducted a presidential election, way back then. After the Vote, the ballot papers were whisked back to the presidential palace for "counting" overnight by Popa Doc and his henchmen. Next morning Popa was able to announce the "result" 6,475,972 votes for Popa Doc and zero for "opposition" candidate, who insistently happened to be Popa Doc's brother-in-law. When asked to explain how he had received 6 million odd vote, when the total population of Haiti was only about 4 million. "Easy" said Popa, "The people love me so, it was impossible to stop them from voting for me over and over 2,3,4, times." Hum. And what about your opponent didn't he vote for himself? "Of course not, even he know Popa is the best man for the job." You can't get more democratic than that, can you?

Paul1405
You must be smoking something. There are missing votes. They just didn't disappear by themselves. Somebody must have done something so the best way to remedy the situation is to sack the lot and start again.
As far as evidence based policing, yes today that is the popular methodology and it is allowing crims to go free on technicalities with the help of smart lawyers.
In the past it was Modus Operandi and gut together with information and intimidation that solved the crimes. If a few "innocents "ot sloughed up bad luck, they were guilty of other things anyway.
By the way there are still 13,000+ votes still missing in the Torres Straits that the AEC isn't telling anyone about.
AEC not corrupt. Mate you are having a lend of yourself. Allowing the use of pencils and employing left wing school teachers to run booths. What a joke.

Dear Belly,

Losing more than 1300 votes is serious and should be
investigated - which is what is happening. Whether the
High Court is involved is still uncertain - but one
thing's for sure even the AEC head has admitted that,

"We're left with a nagging and almost irreconcilable doubt
about the outcome of the Western Australian Senate election."

I'd say have it done again - all seats.

The following link is a good one:

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/lost-votes-have-left-doubt-about-wa-senate-result-aec-head-admits-20131104-2wvhu.html

Foxy yes true.
I would like to tell about what I know of the system.
As a party scrutiner I or some one signs to say the ballot box is right, before the first vote is put in it.
As we sctutiners watch every vote is counted, we must not touch the voting forms.
Here on it is my understanding, after the count votes are under lock and key.
Now when did the votes go missing?, as they know how many we can take it for granted after at least one recount.
At some point, IF a dirty deed was done, that missing lot may have been stolen.
Do any of us think no one would want a new vote?
I think it is possible, but for sure it insults our voting system.
And that a different outcome based only on a different electoral climate is almost assured.
Then? this issue is a huge one.
What if after the votes turn up after or during a new election?

"In the past it was Modus Operandi and gut together with information and intimidation that solved the crimes. If a few "innocents "ot sloughed up bad luck, they were guilty of other things anyway."
Inspector Chris, is this you at work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfzXqwvtoEE

Paul1405,
It is called pro active policing or would you prefer the streets humming with pro active crims and muggers and rapists.
It is possible the new age policing being put together for the G20 and bikies reaction may go a little too far but then the society will catch up very quickly.
Inside ten years we are going to be very lucky to even hold the line against criminal activity let alone get on top of it.
Welcome to the 21st. century Paul1405

I am just a little baffled by the surge away from the threads direction.
And feel this matter and the coming new election is one of the truly big events in this country,s politics.
No one can say what happened to those votes but by the end of this saga we all will be aware of the huge impacts.
If we knew what took place?
Well everything from a lazy carrier to a true political act of shiftiness?we live in interesting times

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-thumbing-his-nose-at-voters-says-laurie-oakes-20131106-2x0p8.html
As the only existing and active thread about politics I offer this link.
Not to surge away from my intended path.
But to support a view I have put here often post election.
In threads about a DD election I highlighted such an event may not take place.
This link and the WA Senate troubles gives us a chance to watch the Senates up coming election and too see a possible reason Abbott will not call one.

Belly,
You are so wrong
Someone out there can say what happened to those vote.
They are just not talking.
We are looking at a crime far greater than any street offense.
This strikes at the heart of our democracy and the heads should fall.

Chris as you actually use the same terminology I do about this how am I wrong.
Look bloke I like you suspect a crime not a loss.
But such a crime it is going to be hard to ever prove it.
We can swap opinions on who would do such a thing but to what end?
As a past Copper you as I do would rule out the Libs/Nats I think, I too see no Labor hands here.
It could be the act of a single idiot from a party or group.
But I rather think, it is not clear, you may think my words about a different out come after the election is my wrong?
No one has more to worry about the the coalition, unfair? maybe
But it would have been no better if Labor had won, tough change will have an impact on this result.
WA is firmly a Lib/Nats state.
But an early opportunity to change SOME VOTES exists.
In my view the Senate stalls majority views we would be better without it.
But picking a side, yours or mine, then standing by it, against truth is no help at all.
This as you say is a crime, the need for another costly vote in one way has the potential to give WA voters a chance to stop sporting party theft of a seat and maybe the greens hold on theirs will be shaky.

Chris, I do believe I would be the ideal 'copper' to solve this crime of the century caper in WA. I have now rolled over and can see the value of your old fashioned "Modus Operandi and gut feeling" policing. Let me run it by you, in order of ops.

1. Prepare the charge sheet, theft, assaulting police and resisting arrest. might think of a couple of new ones later, see how I feel.

2. Form me very own SWAT team to effect the bust. Me thinks 4 big boofy coppers should fit the old bill, non of those shella types.

3. At precisely 2am we hit Greenie HQ, unannounced and unidentified, I'll be yelling "Boys...get that commie, pinko. watermelon, Ludlum.
We'll leave no plate unbroken or kids teddy bear un-torn in our ruthless pursuit of the guilty, and naturally evidences gathering as well. I'm sure I'll find incriminating evidences in the oddest of places, like senate votes in Ludlum's coat pocket. Similar to the ones I have in my back pocket now.
Sounds good so far, ah!

4. Back at the station I'll type up Ludlum's confession while the lads go down to the cells and extract it, naturally they will 'convince' him of his guilt, and how by signing the confession will get him medical attention for the broken arms and black eyes, silly boy resisting arrest. Lets hope he don't start demanding that lawyer pinko type crap, I wont go soft then, you know, the guilty have no rights in my book.

5. If necessary we'll call around to see Blind Freddie, he can give us an eye witness account of the whole thing, I'll slip Freddie 50 bucks for his trouble. but I don't think it will be necessary in such an open and shut case.

6. Then nothing left to do other than mete out the justice, a length of rope should see that right.

Nothing like a bit of dinky di old fashioned policing. Ah! what ya think, sounds good?

Belly! Since Constable Clod has appointed me chief investigating officer, on the case, like you I too drew up a short list of suspects. And like you, by applying an exhaustive process of elimination was able to come up with the name of the commie, pinko, watermelon, who perpetrated this dastardly crime. Here is my list of suspects;

1. The good ladies of the CWA....No, too busy baking scones at the time.
2. Elvis...No, was seen by a very reliable witness, working at 'Burger King'.
3. Space Aliens...No. they were off the planet, how I know, they told me so.
4. Moses...No. had an alibi, said he was busy out sailing in his ark at the time.
5. God...No, God's an American, why would he want to steal Australian senate votes.
6. Mother Tersea, True, a violent commie, pinko, if there ever was one. but unfortunately dead at the time, so a bit hard to pin it on her. No.
7. Eddie Obeid, stole every thing else, but that was all in NSW. No

Who could it be? I racked my brain for an eternity over this, well at least for 30 seconds, before coming up the the name of the guilty commie, pinko, watermelon who perpetrated this dastardly crime. That dirty greenie himself SCOOT LUDLAM. he had no alibi, he can't cook, he don't work at 'Burger King', he was on the planet at the time, he's not an American and he could/nt get a character reference from Eddie Obeid, and he's black!, Well green, that's almost BLACK! guity as charged.

Paul as you look for clues remember not to follow Chris Gaff too closely, he leaves clues, mostly blood on the walls such cops do..
I can understand your need for humor here.
It is one of your team who may not win the seat they now hold.
Many things in todays Government must be handled with humor.
The alternative is to cry.
CSIRO to slash jobs! tiny target Tony announces Science is all Crap with that move.
Boring Hockey increases the borrowing debt ceiling by two thirds of its current levels.
Remember the 40 to 50% the carbon tax was said to put on out power bills? now it turns out to be 7 to 9%
The whole country is to be kept in the dark, so failures are unknown.
Laughter helps, but truth is this government hurts.

Paul,

I think you might have cracked the case us!

And, this was the clue that did it: <<3. Space Aliens...>>

After getting your list, we just needed to establish a link between one of the suspects on that list, and any of the parties who stood to benefit from the votes going missing.

So we went back over the background of everyone ...and found this... one of those aforementioned beneficiaries musing about a call he was expecting :<< So why isn't life out there contacting us?Why aren't the intergalactic phones ringing?>>
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/global-democracy-alone-will-save-us-from-ourselves-20120330-1w3s9.html#ixzz2XvXI7R9u

<<So why isn't life out there contacting us? Why aren't the intergalactic phones ringing?>>

Holy smoke!

This was the smoking gun ...or, at least evidence that someone had been smoking somethings!

<<So why isn't life out there contacting us? Why aren't the intergalactic phones ringing?>>

So now we've established the link with the aliens, we just need to track down where they whizzed those darn electoral papers off to!

Further updates as they come to hand.

Belly, here is a real funny one for you. My partner (HSU East delo) has just received a letter of apology from Michael Williamson admitting to his crimes and offering a pathetic apology to union members, it makes one sick. The grub is not big enough to make restitution to the low paid workers he's robbed blind. Now claiming personal bankruptcy, whilst his wife has millions.
At yesterdays union delegates meeting the news was bad, with hundreds of hospital workers jobs in O'Farrell's sights. The fight will ramp up soon, big time. "T" has come across several girls crying, been in the job for 8 10 years or more, from school, thought they had a good job for life, told their job is now "redundant", offered so called alternative employment at a distant hospital, when they refuse the ridiculous job offer they are told they can resign. These are people with mortgages, and young families, they can't survive on one wage. Its ok for us we own our own home etc, and we are not that young, but these 'kids' are. The other buzz word from O'Farrell is "privatise" where services are farmed out to their mates at the big end of town and at best workers have to apply for their old job back, with the new contractor, less pay and worse conditions, about $5 or $6 an hour less.
I might make funny jokes on here sometimes (mostly to sit stir the conserves, who take themselves oh! so serious) but I've never stuck the knife into the workers and never will, and to your credit, nor have you, I'll say that.

Paul while you will understand others may not.
I think out side the normal in relation to unions.
Yes some, too many rise to the top and forget that first step and why they took it.
Mid Howard,s last term, as elected PM not his current roll along with Murdock puppet master.
I without any legal right, acted as union delegate for HSU members.
See Robbo had the anti work choices but out side our rural hospital.
Not knowing the filth was to come, but both hearing and seeing HSU was not servicing its ,members, not even being seen.
Under a state Labor government to! Nursing staff had waited 3 years to get a uniform issue.
I took the delegate to head of staff and bellowed about safety and threatened a return visit with TV cameras and OH and H people to inspect soiled uniforms.
We won.
However that day was ominous in its proof something was badly wrong in that union.
Here Paul is the line I draw, membership wanted to kill the HSU after that thing was unmasked, ACTU voted them down.
Unions under Abbott face hardship.
But unless the white color tribe understand the ordinary worker, not them is the reason unions exist we are in for a hell we made for our selves.
I by the way, back to threads path see no double dissolution election this term for Abbott, his actions have made that too dangerous for him.

Paul1405, "I've never stuck the knife into the workers and never will, and to your credit, nor have you, I'll say that"

You are naive if you believe that unions don't sacrifice workers for the 'greater good', which translated means good for the union structure, and more especially for the good of union heavies.

To give a practical example, I was meeting with a middle management public servant regarding a minor land zoning decision when a official from the State office of a clerical union walked into the office and not knowing or caring who I was, informed the manager that a workplace delegate, not even from the same department, should be promoted to a job advertised in the manager's branch. The workplace delegate had not applied for the position, which had closed.

I recall two things the union heavy said in particular: firstly, that the union workplace delegate was someone who was valued by the union and secondly, that the interview process that had not even started should be collapsed, and the job filled by the workplace delegate on transfer, with him being given training and 'higher duties', until he could be 'confirmed' in the job.

I met the same manager a few years later doing private certification work for his own private company. When I asked about the incident, he said that the agency executive had eventually placed the workplace delegate in an egg-shell job created for the purpose, where he could be overpaid without supervising staff or making decisions. -Labor government and unions, and stuff like that was usual he said.

Any wonder that able bureaucrats leave to do well elsewhere. Explains why good men and women with ability and life experience don't throw their hats into the ring for Labor pre-selection too. That would be stitched up tight as a drum as well.

Beach, I'm certainly not "naive" when it comes to unions and how they operate, 20 years as a delegate with the Metal Workers seen to that, I was sometimes in the minority at Works Committee Meetings, as a supporter and mate of the long time Convener, who also was from the right, meetings could be very fiery at times, as could meetings with the bosses, they could be just as fiery. I knew blokes like Laurie Carmichael,(hated Bob Hawke) commo head of the AMWSU, and Norm Gallagher, criminal head of the Victorian BLF, they would have a stiff from a clerical union for breakfast. As an ALP member I also supported the right, a hard thing when you come from a very left wing union.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abbotts-climate-change-achilles-heel-the-weather-20131108-2x6r8.html
At first glance this link along with one other here looks well off subject.
And the first may be the reason Chris Gaff told me I am wrong.
However as part of the Senate debate all debate on a DD election, it matters.
I may be quite mad.
But with my heart and brain, two very different things, see a truth few will share.
Labor was going to fall, at its own hand and had little chance of hiding its internal joke, a power brokers fight in progress from 2010.
But too,Abbott was not ready to govern, and that he and his party fail to understand the anti Labor tide was not an endorsement of his policy,s.
Within 12 months a massive turn in support for this government, an even greater one for some of its policy,s, may bring about a change in the leadership , believe me, read the link and understand it, with your brain working and biases in the bucket at the door.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/missing-votes-would-have-reversed-wa-result-in-senate-antony-green-20131108-2x6ru.html
The quoted expert Antony Green has words on this debacle in todays press.

Even though the Senate vote in WA has turned into a fiasco, that in itself does not lend argument to the call for the abolition of the Senate. Changes to the Senate voting system are required to stop manipulation of voting preferences from micro parties which sees one of them elected, when clearly their is no popular support for that candidate. Optional 'above the line' voting was designed to make it easy for the voter but it has had this undesired effect and that should change. I do not want any system that denies micro parties and individuals the right to stand in elections, nor do I support any system that would be blatantly unfair to smaller parties or individuals.

Paul,

You've done it again; I find myself in complete agreement with you!!

Is Mise,

"Paul,

You've done it again; I find myself in complete agreement with you!"

Is Mise, It's just that I'm right 99% of the time, and you 1%. Now if you could just improve your act, in say about 100 years we'll be 50/50. LOL
Seriously, I'm sure there are lots of things we would agree on, I often agree with my Liberal Party mates, party members I actually know, as I do with Labor friends, on a range of issues.

Paul! please do not Fib, apart from me you have no Labor mates, be aware your right leg is likely to be longer than the other.
Now lets just think about this and the opinion you and Is Mise share.
You will have seen Tory,s tell me I am lieing here.
See SOME so dislike others opinions they fall back on that.
SOME think those holding other views are mad, or just uneducated rabble.
So why do we think as we do?
Why am I threatened and challenged by the greens, why have I formed the view they are dieing?
And has my view any value based on truth.
Mate if the greens do not win that WA Senate seat, but the maths fraudulent wiz wins again for the mad hatters party you, yes you, will feel as 80% of voting Australia does, disenfranchised!
And what chance you want that to happen.
NO party that can not hide the truth, more stubbornly hate/distrust/want them gone, that vote for them.
What is a Democratic country to do if constantly its voting system returns such a group?
Wait! it will not be long just wait.
Your leader dooms your party Bob Brown, working quietly in the back ground may yet return.

Comrade Belly, let me answer your questions.

Why is comrade Belly threatened and challenged by The Greens? Comrade Belly suffers from a reactionary complex, can't abide with progressive thinking, a closet conservative, The Greens with their progressive thinking and radical ideas pose a threat.

Why has comrade Belly formed the view that The Greens are dieing? Wishful thinking on comrade Belly's part, as our comrade is confronted with the disaster that is the Labor Party.

What is a democratic country to do if constantly its voting system returns such a group? In comrade Belly's eyes it would seem that noting less that a totalitarian one party state will do, nothing less is not democratic, as it continually elects people not from the Labor Party and not approved by comrade Belly, such as Greens.

Bloke mate will do I have no comrades.
Fear? I fear the greens have targeted the less well informed from my party as both fuel for a party totally unlike it is sold bysuch as you.
Let us pretend there is no Belly, never was.
Test my charges on the living truths.
Is your party unloved to the degree charged?
Did your party both play a roll in Labors defeat and see a substantial drop in votes?
Can you with honesty ever deliver your party,s promises without black mailing the majors.
The non-existent Belly rests his case confident Australia thinks much the same.
A PS during the workchoices campaign a packed crowd heard a trades hall head, proudly Communist, call them Comrades.
I for two weeks went from lunch shed to lunch shed explaining to members ready to leave the union, after being called that, we do not support words so dirtied by past lunatic fringe elements.
And by worker enslavers the Communist movement

Belly, what is wrong with the word "COMRADE" your favourite Scotsman, and I don't mean Ronald McDonald, uses it all the time...Dougie Cameron. Dougie is alright in my book, what about yours? If you ever run into Comrade Doug, he'll greet you with a big "Ciamar a tha sibh, comrade Belly" loosely translated, is Gaelic for Hallo Belly. And Dougie is a Labor Laddie.

Paul, old mate we must together face a reality.
I am well aware my view of reality is not loved by every one and too, SOME within Unions actively dislike me for what I think is truth.
I having grown to respect many of my union officials, but knowing in those early days, as Delegate my members did not share that view.
For the same reasons many lie on the Monday after an election *saying I never voted for them*
We must confront in even the very best of union Delegates and members that word is tainted.
After I am long dead two truths will live on well past my time.
Workers do not want, in huge and over ridding numbers, a bar to do with communism, or the word comrade.
Too as I face my second ALP meeting after our crushing defeat, my view that the word SOLIDARITY is used not to unite us for our fight but to cover wrongs it is VITAL we confront.
I understand we must present a united front, think we are in for far better times, but watch as I insist on more reform more say for members less for caucus.
Watch as I demand never again!
And see me charged with being against the party I live for.
No comrades but Paul plenty of mates, what better word than that to describe Australia,s only reformist party?
Already in a conversation about a wrong in my mob I was stomped on by a female who refused to answer was fixing the subject more worth while than hiding it, never give in mate in the end honesty matters.