I recently received a letter from an organisation with whom I had set up a recurring payment authority with a credit card. Amongst the usual blurb was a request to update my card details, which had expired in 2010. This made me wonder how an organisation could continue to draw funds with a card nearly three years past its expiry; I certainly could not do this. So I contacted my bank, and was informed that even though the card was expired, the bank was still obliged to process payments. Further, I was advised that I would have to contact the organisation if I wished to cancel the recurring payment. This seems odd to me that I should have to consult a third party about transactions which are conducted by a bank on my authority. I am currently trying to clarify the rules in Australia regarding recurring payments, but I have found that in the UK such agreements must be cancelled opon the request of the account holder.

http://www.moneysupermarket.com/c/news/know-your-rights-about-continuous-payments/0013954/

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/jun/28/banks-cancel-recurring-payments

It would be nice if things were the same in Oz.

Regrettably a failing of the the system in Australia is if an organization, shop etc has you credit card number they can withdraw money from your account.

Hi Phil,

Yes, it does seem surprising that an entity can make withdrawals from an account using an expired credit card. But even more surprising to me is the fact that the authority to draw funds does not reside with the account holder. Of course, the account holder does have the authority to cancel a card or to close an account. So I guess that ultimately the account holder does have control, although it would be quite an inconvenient authority to exercise.

Fester,

A fool of a manager of a timber yard put through numerous transactions for the same large amount on my credit card. He was taking executive action while the sole office worker trained to do it had taken an approved early mark for a long weekend.

I was to find that there was nothing I could do about it but hope that the business would reverse the entries when it suited it. The commitment against the card limiting credit available, lasts until it is authorised by the said trader late in the month.

Fortunately I had other cards and sources of money and I woke to the problem immediately (I stormed behind the counter to see what the hell was going on with my card), but for anyone who didn't, they might be living off charity and possibly getting a hidden poor credit rating as well.

It is simply not good enough. The available protections work to suit the card provider and the trader. It is a reminder that the federal government volunteered the Australian public as the guinea pigs for the mass introduction of the credit system.

That's very strange, indeed, Fester.

I can only assume, not knowing the details, that you renewed the card at some point, and that your new card has the same number as the old one. If the card had actually expired, i.e. was no longer valid, then the Bank would have no account against which to process the payment - this happens of course when you lose a card, cancel it, and have it replaced with a new one with a different number.

If there is continuity (in the card number, that is) then the Bank is doing the right thing, because as far as they are concerned, that account number is still valid.

My Bank clearly states in its Ts and Cs that "A cardholder may not request NAB to alter or stop payment on the transaction. A cardholder may only cancel regular payments authorised to be made to your account by direction to the merchant"

I strongly suspect yours does too.

Hi Pericles,

Just to clarify, the recurring payment authority I signed included card details and an expiry date. My assumption was that the agreement would end with the expiry of the card. But the fact is that card expiry is no barrier to funds being drawn. Yes, I could cancel the card to stop the payments, but it would be easier if I could make a specific request to the bank.

<< Further, I was advised that I would have to contact the organisation if I wished to cancel the recurring payment. >>

Interesting you should mention that, Fester. I had the same experience a few years ago. It is one thing that just keeps coming back into my head, often in the middle of the night when I’m suffering from insomnia.

It is just so totally wrong! You should of course have total control over this sort of thing. If you decide to terminate donations to an organisation or whatever the case may be, you should be able to do it very easily, directly with your bank, end of story.

dont start me on..bwankers
its real easy,today..to close accounts
i once signed one of them monthly withdrawal..things..for the greens
then was refused entry..to a greens meeeting..so simply informed..the bank..no more withdrawals to account number etc..and that scam ended

but other scam's.. go on

bank of england
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-26/bank-england-experiencing-technical-difficulties

bank holiday pannama
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1380224271.php

greece showdown
http://investmentwatchblog.com/greece-military-coup-detat-showdown-saturday-president-must-step-down-or-else/

jp morgan
11 billion

http://www.blacklistednews.com/JPMorgan_settlement_with_Justice_Department_could_exceed_%2411_billion/29163/0/38/38/Y/M.html

france=100%
http://investmentwatchblog.com/france-taxes-at-100-this-is-your-future/

loot public pensions
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/looting-public-pensions-a-new-think-tank-study-20130926

U.S. Running Out of Cash More Quickly
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304526204579097331330163784.html?mod=ITP_pageone_0

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3750

I see your confusion, Fester.

>>Just to clarify, the recurring payment authority I signed included card details and an expiry date. My assumption was that the agreement would end with the expiry of the card.<<

Wrong assumption.

Including the expiry date in the payment authority was purely an additional check on the validity of the card itself, not an indicator of a finite payment term.

>>But the fact is that card expiry is no barrier to funds being drawn<<

The account against which the card operated did not expire. You (presumably) happily extended its life by renewing the physical card itself. Having to renew all regular payments each time a card reaches a certain date is far more hassle than simply telling one retailer to switch off the agreement you have with them.

>>Yes, I could cancel the card to stop the payments, but it would be easier if I could make a specific request to the bank.<<

Cancelling the card merely in order to stop payments would be very silly indeed. Much easier, surely, to conform to the terms of your agreement with the Bank, and simply tell the supplier with whom you made the payment commitment to cease billing. If they continue to take payments from you, and you have proof of the discontinuance, the Bank is obliged to help you get your money back, as they do in all cases where your account details are misused.

It's always a good idea to read the instructions. Especially where money is involved.

Hi Pericles,

<Wrong assumption.>

Indeed it was, but why should someone be able to use an expired card when I cannot?

<Cancelling the card merely in order to stop payments would be very silly indeed.>

Certainly a bit more hassle, but I will do it on principle as I object to the idea that I should have to ask the permission of a third party. A bank account is an agreement between the account holder and the bank: The authority to draw funds should be held by the account holder. By cancelling the card I am exercising that authority.

My apologies, I am obviously being too obscure, Fester.

>>why should someone be able to use an expired card when I cannot?<<

You (presumably) were sent a replacement card, with the same account number. It is the account number that determines the relationship between you and the Bank, not a piece of plastic. The supplier was using the card number. The expiry date was noted at the start of the agreement for checking purposes. If you lose the piece of plastic before its expiry date, you will be given a new account number (card number), not a replacement card, in case someone else picks up the card, sees that it hasn't expired, and starts using it.

Is this making some sense now?

>>I object to the idea that I should have to ask the permission of a third party<<

You gave that third party permission in the first place, did you not? You didn't ask your Bank, "is it ok if I pay this supplier some money?" You gave the supplier your authority to take a certain amount from your account on a regular basis. It is up to you to tell that same supplier, "stop".

I really fail to see the problem.

Isn't there an additional step in this process, Pericles/Fester?

"You gave the supplier your authority to take a certain amount from your account on a regular basis."

Fester didn't tell us he had set up a regular payment as a direct debit from his bank account.

"...I had set up a recurring payment authority with a credit card. "

So, presumably the payment is made against his credit account even if that is in turn linked to a bank account?

So wasn't there a stage of 'paying' the list of transactions detailed on the credit account statement?

Hi Pericles,

<You (presumably) were sent a replacement card, with the same account number. It is the account number that determines the relationship between you and the Bank, not a piece of plastic.>

When I get sent a new card, the account number is the same, but the expiry date is different. What I object to is the fact that a merchant can continue to draw funds using the expired card details when I cannot use an expired card? Why should the merchant have this right when I do not?

Still confused, I see, Fester.

>>When I get sent a new card, the account number is the same, but the expiry date is different. What I object to is the fact that a merchant can continue to draw funds using the expired card details when I cannot use an expired card?<<

When you established the arrangement, your card showed a date later than the date of the agreement, right?

It also showed an account number, yes?

Today, when you are asked to pay the amount to the vendor, your card shows a date that is later than today's date, right? So it is a valid card, with the same valid number.

The supplier accepted your card in order to set the process in motion. He did not need to, nor was he obliged to, record the expiry date anywhere, because that was simply a check that you did, in fact, have the card in your possession.

Nor did he have the responsibility to renew the card - you did. If you had not renewed the card - that is, you allowed it to lapse at its expiry date - the supplier would not have been able to continue charging that account number... because it has expired.

But you did renew the card. It did have the same account number.

>>Why should the merchant have this right when I do not?<<

You gave him that right, when you entered into the agreement in the first place. And you do have that right yourself, to use that same card, referring to the same account number.

What is so difficult about that?

Pericles I think in large his complaint is that he can not stop the payment by giving the bank a direction on the handling of his account, without the payee's approval.

Now obviously such a system is to the banking industries advantage, as many of these recurring payment arrangements would be in favor of payments to banks for loan repayments.

I can't see how any institution I am doing business with has any right to refuse my instructions regarding that business.

I have just closed the account my eftpos card was on, & notified the one supplier, [phone & net supplier] I had an automatic deduction agreement with, that they should in future email me the account. They had better get used to handling my cheques, as I have never had a credit card, & will not have any card until a more equitable system is available.

My lady, having been caught once, has a card on an account with a minor bank, used for net purchases only. The account has little in it, & money is transferred to it to meet purchases when necessary. I may do something like that, but will never put any information on my main bank accounts on the net, ever.

Hi Pericles.

<What is so difficult about that?>

So then, why cant I use an expired card if the expiry date is irrelevant? Surely I could still make purchases with the expired card if my account number is valid? The fact that I cannot do this, yet a merchant can shows that the law is not equitable in this instance.

This is becoming a little surreal, Fester.

>>Surely I could still make purchases with the expired card if my account number is valid?<<

The validity of your account number rests on there being an expiry date later than the date on which you use the card. If you have a replacement card (for the one whose expiry date has passed), that becomes the expiry date relevant for all new transactions.

Your card - and the account behind it - was valid when you signed up with your supplier in the first instance. It is still valid now, albeit with a new expiry date.

The Bank has done you the courtesy of providing continuity, precisely so that standing orders of this type are not interrupted. If they cancelled the card each time an expiry date was reached, this would require you remember all recurring transactions, and go through the hassle of re-applying to the supplier.

This is classic, Hasbeen...

>>I have just closed the account my eftpos card was on, & notified the one supplier, [phone & net supplier] I had an automatic deduction agreement with, that they should in future email me the account. They had better get used to handling my cheques<<

I just hope you have enough goose feathers to sign them with.

Hi Pericles.

<Your card - and the account behind it - was valid when you signed up with your supplier in the first instance. It is still valid now, albeit with a new expiry date.>

The agreement specified a card number and expiry date. The expiry date has not been updated, yet payments continue for nearly three years past that date. I would think that each credit card transaction should be valid in its own right, with a card number and non-lapsed expiry date. This is as much as is required when I myself use it, and the fact that there is an agreement between the card holder and merchant should not alter this requirement, nor be of relevance.

<If they cancelled the card each time an expiry date was reached, this would require you remember all recurring transactions, and go through the hassle of re-applying to the supplier.>

Not so. All I need to do is to update credit card details at a number of websites, hardly time consuming or of much inconvenience. I guess that we just have different perspectives on the issue. Yes, there is quite a bit of the fu factor involved, but I know that my intended actions will achieve what I want them to. It will be a slight hassle to me, but of far more inconvenience to the bank and credit card organisations. Quite frankly, making a request to the merchant in this instance would be undignified.

Not really, Fester.

>>The agreement specified a card number and expiry date<<

The agreement may have included an expiry date (to help validate the card) but the expiry date has no force within the agreement itself. It merely indicated that the card was valid at that time.

Your card is still valid. So payments are still due, under the agreement that you made with the merchant.

Your agreement to pay was between you and the merchant. As such, the Bank has no authority to interpose itself into your contract.

The Bank, as a matter of courtesy to you, revalidated your card, which was part of the agreement between you and them. And part of that agreement too, would be words to the effect that "A cardholder may only cancel regular payments authorised to be made to your account by direction to the merchant"

That would seem to me to be the proper division of responsibility.

>>...payments continue for nearly three years past that date.<<

If you had wanted to cancel at the expiry date, you had every opportunity to do so. It's a little unrealistic to expect the Bank to read your mind.

Are you by chance a banker Pericles? You sound like on.

I was already somewhat unhappy with banks, or at least a couple of them.

Recently as I was getting some equipment on an ongoing basis, from the US & UK, I went to my bank & told them I wanted a totally separate account, with an eftpos card to be able to use safely on the net. With a relative recently caught by using a card for net purchases, I was not interested. I was assured they could do this.

I was horrified just a few weeks later on a phone inquiry on the new account to be given access to all my accounts. The complaints department then advised me it was impossible for them to give me a totally separate account.

They did not even offer an apology for giving me faulty information. As any reasonable person would expect, I no longer do business with that bank.

There was another that decided they did not want to supply the letters of credit for me for $1000 each in 6 different island nation capitals thousands of miles apart, but did not bother to tell me, leaving me to find out when I sailed into one. This despite me having 10 times that much on fixed deposit.

I have absolutely no reason to trust, or rely on any bank I have so far done business with. In my opinion, anyone who trusts a bank is a fool.

To all,
There have been a number of occasions when in business as a high end fashion and gift ware chain my staff have made simple but costly mistakes in their credit card billings.
On discovery I simply went back into the customers account and took the amount owing.
On other occasions I have actually returned overcharged amounts directly into the customers account.
It seemed to me at the time that I had more control over the customers account than they did.

I tried to cancel a Credit Card with the Commonwealth Bank some years ago. Now wasn't that an experience. I paid the full amount owing after they rang & found the total for me. Then I received a bill in the mail for 2 cents. I went to the Bank again & paid the 2 Cents & asked why the Card wasn't cancelled. I was told, "Credit Cards never expire, if someone used my Card in 10 years time the Account would automatically revive." I then got a 0ne Cent Bill I gave the Bank 2 Cents & then got a Bill to say I was in Credit for one Cent. I went to the Bank & cut the Card up in front of them. A few months latter I was sent a new Card. Sometimes you just can't win.

I am with a Credit Union. I've had too many problems with Banks & their Small Print.

I've never had a problem with the Credit Union. On two occasions I have had problems with on going payments. All I did was ask the Credit Union to stop any further payments & they did.

Just recently I had a problem with an expired Card. A Company sent me a letter of demand for the payment. I didn't know it was an ongoing account, there was nothing on the Website to indicate this. The Company said that it was normal practice for their type of Business. The Credit Union had not processed the payment as they had sent me a new Card with a different Number & expiry date. I contacted them & they said It was a safety system.

I tried to cancel the Account with the Company & they sent me a paper form to fill out. I did & sent it back. The letter came back "Unknown Address" I contacted them & they told me that the Bill would accumulate until I payed the full amount or cancelled the account. This is a respectable New Company in America not some shonky dealer.

Forget the Banks, join a Credit Union.

Nope, Hasbeen.

>>Are you by chance a banker Pericles? You sound like on.<<

Just a customer.

>>The complaints department then advised me it was impossible for them to give me a totally separate account.<<

Change your Bank. I have three completely separate accounts, with the same Bank, at the same branch.

>>There was another that decided they did not want to supply the letters of credit for me for $1000 each in 6 different island nation capitals thousands of miles apart, but did not bother to tell me<<

And you didn't check that they had been issued before you "sailed into one"? Careless.

I'm not sure of the significance of this, chrisgaff1000

>>On discovery I simply went back into the customers account and took the amount owing. On other occasions I have actually returned overcharged amounts directly into the customers account.<<

What exactly do you believe is strange about a) taking money that is legitimately owed and b) repaying money you have overcharged?

>>It seemed to me at the time that I had more control over the customers account than they did.<<

You had precisely no "control" over customer's accounts. From your description, you were simply rectifying mistakes made by your staff.

If you tried to exercise "control" by taking money that wasn't yours to take, you would find yourself in trouble.

What puzzles me is how people feel so free to blame others for problems entirely of their own making. If you can't get the service you need, go elsewhere. If ever my Bank started to play tricks on me, I'd be out of there like a shot. With the amount of interest I pay them each year, I am considered quite important.

There's no need to go through all that, JayB.

>>I tried to cancel a Credit Card with the Commonwealth Bank some years ago. Now wasn't that an experience. I paid the full amount owing after they rang & found the total for me. Then I received a bill in the mail for 2 cents. I went to the Bank again & paid the 2 Cents & asked why the Card wasn't cancelled. I was told, "Credit Cards never expire, if someone used my Card in 10 years time the Account would automatically revive." I then got a 0ne Cent Bill I gave the Bank 2 Cents & then got a Bill to say I was in Credit for one Cent. I went to the Bank & cut the Card up in front of them. A few months latter I was sent a new Card. Sometimes you just can't win.<<

Simply report the card as lost or stolen.

The Ts and Cs of most cards have you indemnified against fraudulent use, once you have reported it missing. Here's the clause in my agreement with my Bank.

"The Accountholder is not liable for:
(a) losses that are caused by the fraudulent
or negligent conduct of NAB’s employees or
agents or companies involved in networking
arrangements or of Merchants or of their agents
or employees;
(b)losses arising because the PIN, Card Account
Details or Card is forged, faulty, expired, or
cancelled;"

That would seem to cover it.

And the idea of actually going to the Bank and handing over two cents simply blows me away. Does anybody actually do that? Telstra have been sending me an "account" for six years, in which they declare that they owe me five cents. The thought of actually spending any time on chasing them up for it is laughable - especially as it costs them far more than five cents to send out a paper bill, through the post, regular as clockwork every month. Their problem.

Strewth. Why do some folk spend so much energy sweating the small stuff?

Pericles I suggest you check just what access you can get from one account to another with your bank. I had been assured that I had a totally separate a/c, but their telephone banking system had them all linked.

As with much of our world today, their computer system controlled them, not the other way around.

I'm not too sure how much experience you might have with 70s communications from a yacht at sea, before satellite systems became affordable to us mere mortals. We even had to navigate by sextant. although access to satellite navigation systems was becoming available, the weight of the systems, & the generating capacity to drive them was beyond the capacity of a yacht, or the finances of less than a millionaire, when that meant something.

The idea of being able to contact your bank from a yacht hundreds of miles at sea was total science fiction, hence my planning ahead from a port with full banking facilities.

I have no problems cancelling a periodical payment when I need to with the Bendigo Bank

it..was a throw-away..line..here

http://www.celestinevision.com/celestine/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3750&sid=9b1c6463fce6fca97eec798df50278dc

but..should be
de-noted..again..here

the Please..don't panic: plan.

Pay down..or pay off..your credit cards,
but if you do pay them off,..*buy something small every month,
ratther..then pay it off completely,..to keep your credit cards active.

*Do not cancel them,*
because that*..can become..a negative..on your credit report.

have no more..in your bank/account
than you..absolutely need..to pay your bills...

Pay with cash,..whenever possible...
KEEP..THE RECEIPT*..its proof..of title*

keep..atm receipts..with the cash
as govts..will seize..even cash

your savings..will be bailed-in

if you chose..to Do small purchases..of silver and gold,
do it..in quantities that..are not traceable,..and when you buy silver,..make sure it is "close to melt",price..and not purchased for its numismatic value.

i would add..that govt/bank-notes..is a bond..
but..its..negotiable tender..[only cause govt says so]..govt can/will..at any time the bankers tell them..to..remove cash from private..owning[it..will/be..a numbers..game]

from/then its..only..computer credits only
via..the mark..[needed to..buy and sell]

but i..diverge..

the BANKERS..STOLE OUR GOLD/SILVER COPPER..
soon TOO..goes nickle too..and cash held in banks..get bailed in
[out of your account..into the bankers]..and they give you..valueless non voting cyber..promise..of shares

recall..when the commie's..system went bust
[the people..at least got shares...that the ignorant..gave away,,for a free tv..etc

but..in..our capitalist/usury..fiat age..govt
been selling..of..the family silver..for years
when..they go bust..they will just tax the poor..even more

[the cooperate/persons tax avoid
[yet ONLY..they receive 'income'..we got income tax..[not wage tax]

anyhow..there is no cure for idiocy
if..the working..slob..thinks wage=income

anyhow..the..coin-age ends
and the..cyber rage begins

heck SO0N.
*NO_COMMENT_ALLOWED*.

thats why..soon..you wont..even be able to..comment
http://www.hangthebankers.com/mainstream-media-to-remove-comments-section-on-articles/

[like it did.when bankers took..first..our gold coin..then the silver coin..then even..the copper coin/..then..the copper cables

[note that inflation..has stolen so..much value..from coin..
so much so..that now..the nickle in coin=often..over its value as coin]

save your pennies
once hrh..re-instates..it AS IF it were still..its WORTH...in gold[ie stop debasing the kings coin*[queens coin-age]..once that goes all is lost..

simply revaluing..the coins face values
avoids the need..of any bail-in..or even bailout..and let govt control..mint treasury/note printing..central development banks..not war mongering bankers

Pericles: There's no need to go through all that, JayB. Simply report the card as lost or stolen.

I did learn that soon after I'd been through the above process. I did want to cancel the whole Card because I had been, like a lot of people when Cards first became available, I was stupid & had a number of cards & playing "Peter & Paul."

I was getting my act together at the time. Life is a learning experience. They say, If you never made a mistake, you never learnt anything." I've made lots of mistakes, that's why I'm such a genius. ;-)

Now I just tell the Credit Union not to pay & they don't. I get an email from the Company then I cancel the Account. Schrimple.

These Companies put the "On going Account" in Small Print on purpose so you'll miss it.

i thought i had posted here
but cant see it

anyhow i wrote..that lamb island..is succeeding
meaning it must write its money form..into its constitution

the point being we can write into our charter
fee free banking..in cyber smart cards..as well as generate a local coin based currency..in short we can begin with a clean a state..help make me..explain..[test me]..is all i ask

helpme get intocopntact with the right people
[ijust want to run the garbage dump..and street cleaing..rubbish pickups..,sewerage..etc

hoping others take over water/electric supply..
roads public service dept of corrections[correcting wrongs]

anyhow..things change
and as things change..we dis empower..those looting society

how may things change
by saying no..its over..your serving shareholders
by abusing householders..[govt works for main..street..not suburbia

well..the lamb roars
[lamb-island..is succeeding in secession
and will..have their own banking credits systems..just wasit and see

or help..make it happen
we do have alternatives..

anyhow
here is an example of non-violent change
never ever never..any but..ever passive..change..for cause of course

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6040&page=0