Classic stuff from our best-ever Prime Minister:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/more-sports/bob-hawke-drops-fbomb-on-tv-at-america8217s-cup-celebrations/story-fnibbyyv-1226727795495

Hard to believe, but Australia’s great win in the America’s Cup was 30 years ago!

Was that Bob Hawke? He is so easy to mix up with Sir Les Patterson,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F7E7lAp-hM

That is all we need, Sir Les, er sorry, Bob as our Cultural Attache to the US and that fellow with the wobble board as our resident ambassador in the UK.

Was that we will plant 1 Billion trees Bob Hawke. It is amazing what people say after a few too many drinks.

Quote "our best-ever Prime Minister:" I assume you had a few too many drinks!

Sorry Luddy, Hawke was a nothing. He abdicated from doing anything, leaving it to others to run the country. All he wanted was to be loved.

He lost it when even knowing the 3 mines policy, [uranium] was a pile of garbage, a sop to the left, he backed down & shut up. Up to then he had believed in things, after that he went through the motions, believing in nothing.

Perhaps it was him, rather than Richardson who can be blamed for Labor losing its soul.

Yes thanks Ludwig saw the whole thing yesterday.
Not sure he was our best ever but the pure and proud Australian like it or not about the bloke is great.
Note however the bitter raw anti anything to do with Labor comments here.
Leaves me once again to ask.
When will a Tory/red neck/ uninformed commentator tell of concerns in their camp?

My parents lived opposite Hawkes residence in Sailor Bay Rd Northbridge.
Mother said he was a slob a drunk and a womanizer.
He certainly looked like it the other night.

An expensive frivolity such as Bob Hawke & I'm in no way linking this to the office of PM, is really not worthy of being brought up on a fine forum like OLO.

Dear Ludwig,

It's all very subjective isn't it?

Still the facts do remain and historians have to look at things
in context. According to the link listed below Bob Hawke is
considered as, "One of the 20th Centuries most notable
Prime Ministers (1983-1991) and a great conciliator nationally
and abroad."

The Hawke Centre at the University of South Australia has as
the link tells us, "been named in honour of his contribution to the
nation and its focus on civil society issues which reflects
some of the themes of the Hawke eraa that remain relevant today
in Australian life."

They list Bob Hawke's determination to persuade Australians of the
need to see their society and economy in a global context.

Bob Hawke's achievements are listed as follows:

The Economy:
1) 1983 Wages Accord improved economic growth without inflation.
2) Modernised the National Economy, integrated it into the
global economy and diversified Australia's export base.
3) Comprehensive tax reform reducing the top marginal rate and
introducing capital gains tax.

Environment:
1) Stopped the Tasmanian Gordon-below-Franklin dam project.
2) The World Heritage Properties Conservation Act 1983 gave
the Commonwealth control over state Heritage sites.

Global Initiatives:
1) Developed closer ties with the US, Russia, China, Japan,
and SE Asia.
2) Supported international pressure on South Africa to
overturn its apartheid regime.
3) Established APEC - the Asia Pacific Economic Co-operation
Forum.

Social Security:
1) Established Medicare.
2) Improved Social Security benefits to the children of
low-income families.

Equity:
1) Outlawed Sex Discrimination in the workforce.
2) Established the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander
Commission (ATSIC) as the peak national policy and
admin. agency for Indigenous Australians.

Education:
Reformed Australia's Education Training and University System.

And the list goes on.

http://w3.unisa.edu.au/hawkecentre/legacy/

Foxy,
That wish list never really made it past becoming an idealist policy. There was no long-term positive outcome.

Dear Individual,

Which particular policy are you referring to exactly?
Because the ones listed certainly did have very positive
outcomes - and even today many people are taking things
like Medicare for granted. So your sweeping statements
don't quite add up.

In Foxy's world, Hawke would be reviled as sexist and misogynist if he was on the other side as she sees it. The hate mail would be arriving by the truck loads.

Hawke's behaviour is an affront to men. Not because of any idiotic accusations of sexism that feminist dinosaurs like Foxy might level at men they don't like, but because he is an egocentric, borish, drunk and a gambler.

It is simply amazing how many ex-Labor PMs are multi-millionaires despite their humble origins and poor life and business decisions. It is miraculous. Maybe Belly and Foxy can explain how that works. It would help them to give up Centrelink.

Speaking broadly of ex-PMs, I do not see why the taxpayer should be stumping up for anything more than their very generous superannuation. Why should we be paying out for expensive offices in the cbd of a capital city, for instance?

Hawke will always remain a tax payer funded clown. He was the puppet while Keating worked the magic.

Foxy,
the last two on your list were abject failures & you conveniently forgot about no australian child shall live in poverty by 1992. Medicare ? When Joh was QLD Premier we didn't need Medicare in the first place.

Keating polarised society, with the lasting effects being obvious in politics today. He also allowed housing interest rates to climb to 17% (Mr 17%), destroying many homeowners in the process.

Hawke believed in consensus and I would say that was by far his most positive and constructive attribute. Hawke was going soft in the head when he imagined that Julia Whatshername might be judged a little more kindly by history. She was the very opposite to him, thriving for a time in practicing the dark arts of political intrigue, and socially divisive, very divisive.

Both Hawke and Keating had the commitment and social conscience that Julia Whatshername lacked.

Dear Individual,

You can Google the facts for yourself and they
dispute your opinion.

Dear OTB,

Again with the name calling ...
Dear oh dear!

We've yet to see how history will judge the previous PM
whose name happens to be - Julia Gillard.
It is rather boorish and nasty behaviour to continue to indulge
in name calling. Didn't your parents teach you better than that?

Foxy,

Referring to 'Julia Whatshername' is name-calling you declare?

It is a matter of public record that she and you have called many, many people far worse names than that, and often! LOL

Both Julia Whatsername and you are such skilled devotees of the dark arts of sledging. But then in both cases practice makes perfect as they say.

There must be hundreds of your posts on here where you dish it out to anyone who questions your jaundiced slant on your fellow Australians for starters. But you would be proud to never have changed any of your opinions.

From my observations, the Australian labor partys slide began once they knived Bob.

Before then, I was a proud labor voter, even as an employer.

In my view he was a great loss.

He was as close as any Polly could get to a real life person.

Loved a drink and a good laugh, loved his cricket and footy and who will ever forget his heart felt speach 'any boss who sacks anyone today is a bum'.

A true legend for mine.

rehctub,

Might you be remembering Hawke's joke told to a Labor Party dinner in Melbourne in 1981 about the raffles held in India, where the tradition was that the prizes were in reverse order to those in the West?

Whitlam, Hawke, Keating - the 3 worst prime ministers this country ever had but don't hold a candel to Gillard. Keating, by the way, floated the dollar instead of keeping it tied to the gold standard. If he hadn't done that - we would be one of the richest nations in the southern hemisphere. While the rest of the world goes down the dunny with money - we follow. as he put it "Scumbag"

Whitlam laid to foundation to Australia becoming one of the poorest nations in regard to mentality in our education system & Law & Order.

It all comes back to why Labor must never be allowed to govern this country again.

Alan Austin who contributes regularly to articles on
this Forum reminds us of the following facts:

"Australia's economy strengthened remarkably through
the Hawke-Keating period. The world watched in awe as
Paul Keating deregulated the banks, floated the Aussie
dollar, reduced tariffs on imports, "snapped the stick"
of inflation and moved from centralised wage-fixing to
enterprise bargaining and privatised publicly-owned
non-monopolies."

"Australia had risen by 1996 to sixth in the world (from
about the 20th in 1982), behind only the United Arab
Emirates, Norway, Singapore, Japan and the US. That's measured
by the variables: income, growth, wealth, jobs, inlfation,
interest rates, taxes, economic freedom, and credit ratings."

"In 1996 Treasurer Peter Costello inherited an economy in
great shape. The tax system had been overhauled, the
public service had been trimmed to size and the budget
returned to structural surplus after decades of deficits."

"The structural reforms of the Hawke-Keating years built
the foundation for Australia to beat the world and this eventually
happened in 2010 when Australia rocketed to the top of the
world's economies."

By 2007 - Australia had slipped back in rankings to 10th place.
And this occurred at the time during which there was global
growth and an "extraordinarily acquiescent media."
Australia was overtaken by Iceland, Luxenbourg, Switzerland, Taiwan,
Hong Kong and China.

As Austin tells us, "There was no excuse for this deterioration."
However six serious blunders cost Australia dearly.
The first was the selling off productive assets which included,
airports, the National Rail Corporation, Dasfleet, Telstra,
the remaining share of the Commonwealth Bank and many other
variable enterprises."

Austin points out that "had Australia retained some or all of these
cash-yielding assets current angst over debt may well have
been allayed."

I won't go into any more detail at present. This information is
available on the web. Historians will judge each PM and their
times differently from our "arm-chair" discussions.
Of course the moment historians begin to look critically at -
circumstances, context, or any other such considerations, the
product becomes unacceptable for one or another camp of
readers.

Foxy my sweet, Alan Austin is without one of the least qualified to speak on anything regarding finances or government of any commentator I have read.

Not only a fool, but the man is ideologically impaired, having swallowed some strange socialist manifesto in his youth, & been unable to cough it up, to rid himself of the affliction.

I suppose we should treat him with some sympathy, & would if not for his strange attitude in believing he knows everything, & probably does about nothing. This leads to the type of unpleasant & baseless arrogance he, & many other lefty afflicted commentators display.

Dear Hasbeen,

Alan Austin actually does his research - which
as a librarian I acknowledge. His information is
based on facts not on opinion and he does give
all of his sources and the full quotes. He does
not cherry-pick contrary to the misinformation
that's supplied by the MSM of the Murdoch fold such as
The Australian, The Daily Telegraph, and others,
Where key facts and many otherrs are often left out.

You really must broaden your reading.
It's actually educational, even though it may be
distressing at times.

There is nothing complicated here. The issue at hand is whether ex-PM Hawke's 'classic stuff' is how Oz wants to be seen by the world.

His 'F' bomb and over-done faux Ocker presentation are easily overlooked by Foxy, just as she turns a blind eye and ear to his joke directed at Indira Ghandi some years ago (and mentioned because it is so representative of Bob Hawke in his 'Ocker' stride).

However it isn't Bob's obvious similarities with Sir Les Patterson that I object to, it is the falseness of the Ocker language of a man with his intelligence, educated at Oxford and who is very well read and travelled.

Bob Hawke lays it on with a trowel in his relentless campaign to be accepted as one of their kin by the working class he has not been a part of since early youth.

Obama is the same. Obama is a Harvard man and one of the privileged class, a blue blood, who when the occasion suits, puts on the unbelievable facade and language of a black from a (non-existent) Southern sugar cane farm.

The real Bob Hawke might be encountered at L'Atelier de Joël Robuchon, knowing precisely what all of that cutlery is for and speaking fluent French to an awed waiter.

Not saying he doesn't have a penchant for the odd truly coarse joke, but there is a 'Bob Hawke' persona that is constantly marketed by him and one wishes he would drop it now that he isn't obliged to the unions.

Taken from, "The Hawke Legacy," ...

"There's no doubt according to the experts that Bob
Hawke was a popular and effective Prime Minister
whose economic and social reforms are acknowledged
to have shaped modern Australia."

We're told that "he's still an active participant in national
and international affairs and his speeches on a range of
issues continue to attract public interest and comment."

The book, "The Hawke Legacy" is worth a read and the 21
contributors offer a timely consideration of the legacy of
the Hawke era in various facets from economic, education,
environmental, health, and cultural policy and practice.

Or if you want to continue reading on what sort of PM
was Bob Hawke, then, "Hawke: The Prime Minister," by
Blanche D"Alpuget, also comes highly recommended.

It is typical for Foxy to cowdoze on with her broken record. Partisans are like that.

However many people and I am one of them, would like to hear the real Bob Hawke to glean some information from this intelligent, well-educated and well-travelled ex-PM that we are still paying for and handsomely so.

The problem with so many ex-politicians however is that they cannot easily shrug off the persona that was crucial to their success in politics.

As well, they often feel obliged to cement their place in history which results in the re-writing of history. Thankfully, Bob Hawke does not have as strong a motivation to re-write history as Julia Whatshername. Even now Julia is still blaming Rudd and anyone else she can think of as well as mythical blocks to womyn.

I quite liked the debate between Bob Hawke and John Howard,

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s2879422.htm

But no-one could ever imagine Ms Julia Whatshername ever being near frank in an interview. Nor would she appear without her trademark feminist bandwagon to ride. Partisans like Foxy might like that, but I don't and from the recent election, nor do the overwhelming majority of Australians.

If you base your case on insults rather than reason
and facts, how can you expect to be taken seriously.

Fifeteen of the Coalition's new seats are held on very
thin margins. Eleven of the Coalition's new seats are
held on a margin of less than 4,000 votes. This isn't
the clean sweep, no matter how the misinformed spin it.

Foxy,

It is part of your modus operandi that you:

- broken record instead of addressing the arguments of posts that challenge your world views, and

- berate and attack the person/s who have challenged your thinking and assumptions.

As one of the targets of your withering assaults I am in the very good company all who have gone before thinking they could appeal to reason in your case or at least get a hearing. Now lecture me me how to write an argument, as you have done to so many others before who have disagreed with you. Or will it be hands over ears? LOL

Dear OTB,

Again with the insults.
And you expect me to take you seriously.

ICUR
ICUB
Not otb
But all out at C.

<< From my observations, the Australian labor partys slide began once they knived Bob. >>

Yes I reckon so rechtub.

I certainly didn’t like Keating.

At least all the NLP seats were won honestly unlike the electoral fraud of past Labor victories.

Dear Chris,

Before you start being so righteous -

Why don't you Google the Lindsay pamphlet scandal
(prior to the 2007 election) and then the Utegate
affair, and then Mr Abbott's "slush fund" and Pauline
Hanson as a perceived threat - and what was done to her?

It makes for interesting reading and is quite educational.

A balanced view is more equitable to a limited narrow one
afterall.

LOl It just wouldn't be a foxy reply without ducking the argument and turning it back on the person, while lecturing him/her as well.

It goes without saying that anyone who offers an opinion different to Foxy, no matter how factual or well-meant, is destined to cop a label (narrow minded inference in this case) and a patronising school ma'm lecture. Followed by some nasty name-calling if that doesn't deter the person from posting again.

Foxy
I only talk about ballot box fraud, double and triple voting. You know what they say "Vote early and vote often"
Both side have plenty to answer for when it comes to morals and scruples.

<Both side(s) have plenty to answer for when it comes to morals and scruples>

Agreed.

That is why the only effective remedy is to use the broom. The electorate has just done that with the Labor/Greens government.

Time will tell what the incoming government's performance will be.

Dear Chris,

Thanks for your clarification, positive response,
and for understanding the points I was trying to make
and realising that they weren't meant personally.
It's an occupational habit, that comes from working
in a profession whose job it is to add, enrich, stimulate,
and amplify the reading of both young and old and provide
facts and information to people. We leave personal
judgements to the people themselves.

Dear OTB,

You have excellent taste. The more you talk about
me, the better taste you display.

Foxy,
A raconteur I may not be,
But debonair to a tee,
You'll always find my spirit free,
A jolly bon vivant is me

Dear Chris,

Thank You.

I looked up "Le Bon Vivant."

And according to the web, in French it means,
"good living," or "one who lives well."
Which they tell me, "translates to the passionate
pursuit of sublime food and wine and everything
in between, hopefully dished up with both humour
and candour..."

As Chanel once said, "Some people believe that luxury
is the opposite of poverty. No, it is the opposite
of vulgarity."

I dream of luxury - of investing in the ultimate
accessory, a designer fragrance, a slip of silk,
small exquisite pieces that are the lynch pins of style
and can change your mood. One of the most atractive
things about luxury is that it comes in all shapes and
sizes. It can be fresh flowers delivered at work,
fine white bedlinen, a book you've been dying to read, and
perhaps the greatest luxury of all, the time to read it.

Thanks for your lovely poem and for sharing.

A big hug.

Lexi....."In 1996 Treasurer Peter Costello inherited an economy in
great shape.

...."The structural reforms of the Hawke-Keating years built
the foundation for Australia to beat the world and this eventually
happened in 2010 when Australia rocketed to the top of the
world's economies."

....By 2007 - Australia had slipped back in rankings to 10th place.

....The first was the selling off productive assets which included,
airports, the National Rail Corporation, Dasfleet, Telstra,
the remaining share of the Commonwealth Bank and many other
variable enterprises."

Austin points out that "had Australia retained some or all of these
cash-yielding assets current angst over debt may well have
been allayed."

Couldn't agree more, a stupid move by any standard, but unfortunately, it was only in an effort to pay back labors debt.

In fact,One can't help think where would we be now had the past labor government inherited the current debt they have left behind, in total ruin I might suggest.

As for the other points, how anyone considers leaving some $90 billion in debt behind as an achievement pretty much sums up labors, and their supporters way of thinking.

As for Australia being a world leader, your kidding, we are so small that we are simply a pawn on the global chess board, and we move up or down, not by our achievements, but in direct reaction of what happens globally.

The other major issue we face, is that we need the world a lot more than it needs us and, take away our resources, or simply find an alternative to us and we will be lucky to make the top 100 list. We are treading a fine line and if you disagree, or get sucked in by the spin then you had best pray we don't fall out of favor with those who buy our minerals.

rehctub,
You are so on the ball with this one.
It is a bit like us telling the world that we have the best coral reef in the world when every international diver knows quite well that we are really an also ran.
Or we have the greatest rain forests and then flying over the jungles of South America.
Recently in Cairns I spoke to a sailor of one of our Collins Class subs in for urgent repairs.
I asked him what the boat was like and he asked me if I wanted to buy it (joke).
When I questioned him he said it was a disaster waiting to happen. They couldn't submerge because the periscope leaked like a sieve.
We keep telling the world we have a first class defense system and now I find that the whole Collins fleet might have to be scrapped.
We are buying Joint Strike Fighters (2nd hand) that have to be modified so much that their combat performance is reduced to that of third world protagonists.
It seems we are buying Army front line gear from China.
On top of that we still have,t seen our turn at the global recession and the real estate/interest rate/ bank bubble gets bigger every day.

Dear rehctub,

Australia's economy had strengthened remarkably
through the Hawke-Keating period.
In 1996 Treasurer Peter Costello inherited
an economy in great shape. The tax system had been
overhauled, the public service had been trimmed to size and
the budget returned to structural surplus.

But by 2007 - Australia had slipped back in the rankings
globally and this occurred at a time of global growth and an
extraordinarily acquiescent media. There was no excuse
for this deterioration. The structual reforms of the
Hawke-Keating years built the foundation for Australia to beat
the world (and this eventually happened in 2010 -
when Australia rocketed to the top of the world's
economies).

Under Howard and Costello - the second failure was
failing to invest in infrastructure needed for future
development. The funds were certainly available especially
as the mining boom accelerated.

The third failure was to lift compulsory super - savings
to strengthen retiree security - which impacted on baby
boomers.

The 4th was selling 167 tonnes of Australia's gold reserves at
near rock bottom prices just before the price rose
spectacularly. According to assessments the fire-sale
returned just $2.4 billion. Had the gold been sold in 2011
when the nation needed cash during the Global Financial
Crisis - it would have fetched $7.4 billion.

The 5th decision was losing more than $4.5 billion gambling
in foreign exchange markets between 1997 and 2002.

And Finally the 6th disaster was squandering the proceeds of
asset sales and the vast rivers of revenues from booming
industries by handing it out to middle and high income
earners as election bribes.

According to a Treasury report in 2008 - between 2004 and
2007 the mining boom and a robust economy added $334 billion
in windfall gains to the budget surplus. Of this, the
Howard government spent or gave away in tax cuts - $314 billion
or 94 per cent. Sales of businesses yeilded another
$72 billion. Yet Australia's cash in the bank when Howard
left office was a pathetically low 7.3 percent of GDP.
Bulgaria and Kazakhstan had better books in 2007 than
Australia.

cont'd ...

The Coalition continues to declare,

"You can trust us with the economy.
We ran things well before."

Don't believe them.

They didn't.

In fact they were incompetent.

So Lexi, if they were incompetent, as you suggest, then how would you describe the previous labor government, led by Rudd and Gillard, remembering, they inherited an economy in surplus, money in the bank and a booming market/work place, not just in mining.

As for super, can I ask you, at what point should workers start to contribute to their own retirement or, do you think the burden should simply remain on the employer?

While I can accept that super was initially a trade off for wage increase, the same can no longer be said as the latest increase is on top of wage rises, so despite labors best efforts to take all credit for the increase, it's the employer that once again carries the load.

As for Howard/Costello inheriting a thriving economy, may I suggest we agree to disagree.

Rechtub while I can not name the firms here Australia,s biggest civil construction firms do bargain lessor wages rises to include some, sometimes all, super payments.
Enterprise Bargaining is the best way to get productivity increases and lets much more take place during the bargaining.
KPI,s key performance indicators include lost time safe work place and a host of mostly the employers wants.
I am often shocked as so many want to reduce wages but not understand just as job loss harms local business so does a reduced wages pool.

@ Posted by Foxy, Monday, 30 September 2013 11:13:35 AM

Rather than cut and paste so liberally and shamelessly from that 'independent' site you frequent, why not just post the link and have done with it?

Especially since you have declared previously that you are a librarian and a researcher.

@ Posted by Belly, Monday, 30 September 2013 2:58:28 PM

The downside has been the loss of permanent employment, which has nasty side-effects for the worker and family.

Dear rehctub,

The following link will answer your questions:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-07/alberici-economic-comparisons/4672166

Dear OTB,

You must know your limitations.
It is obvious from your posts that reasoned, mature,
intelligent discussion, is not your strong suit.

Interesting article Foxy.

So tell me,if we are in such great shape, why are people hurting so badly?

Where are people hurting so badly?
Why are house prices pushing ever closer to a housing bubble?
Any thing to do with low interest rates?
Not sure how many things Abbott has retracted in just less than a month.
But he has put his planned return to a balanced budget back, and said we are in good shape.

......and said we are in good shape.

So who are we surveying Belly, those on five figure incomes, or those in the real world, the majority, who survive on less than what's considered the average wage.

Sought that out and we may understand things a bit better.

Rechtub!
Are things getting hard for you?
Do you understand *the average income* has always been a fraud?
Surely you know that.
What great unseen event put us in the poor house?
It must have missed me on the way past, not rich not well off, but hardly starving.
An averaging of all incomes is unbalanced, it makes those who make up the most, look to be earning far above what is true.
Now if you are saying we should do more for low income earners ,wage rises less tax then good on ya bloke!

Belly I am fully aware of the scamy way our average income is calculated, however, anyone on less than $66K per year is far from well off.

As for the event you refer to, there is also suggestion that rather than us having dodged a bullet, that perhaps the bullet has not yet been fired.

There are those out there who think our dollar has fallen in value of late and, that it surged in value when it was above parity to the US dollar.

The fact is it is the US dollar that rises and falls and our dollar simply goes along for the ride.

The other critical issue we are about to face is the pending melt down of our coal industry, as it has been described by the CEO of xtrada, as turning to custard.

Why!, union demands by way of wanting to secure the wages and conditions their members enjoy, brought about when the value of coal was off the scale.

The simple fact is, wages in this sector must fall, and fast, before it's too late.

That's if it's not too late already.

Every commodity goes up and down in price, and wages must be allowed to follow.

Finally, no, I'm not doing it tough.

I have a local job in the bush, hide and seek for a grand a week we call it, I cut timber on my time off and enjoy the spoils of the CSG industry from my land.

AND, no staff, no landlord.