Bob Carr in Indonesia has 'discovered' the obvious. Apologies are due due to all who were brave and told the truth for years, only to be trashed as 'racists' by government ministers. What about those carefully crafted but obviously misleading stories by the publicly funded national broadcasters. Will the publicly funded broadcasters ever be held to account for their own political spin?

<The Rudd government is about to rewrite Australia's refugee assessment process, making it more "hard-edged", says Foreign Affairs Minister Bob Carr, who believes the majority of people arriving by boat now are "economic migrants", not genuine refugees.

Speaking in Indonesia, where he is laying the groundwork for Kevin Rudd's first overseas trip since returning to the prime ministership, Senator Carr said the upshot would be significantly less discretion for courts and tribunals to rule that asylum seekers were genuine refugees.

Up to 90 per cent of people who arrive by boat are considered genuine refugees, but Senator Carr said his "impression" was that now, as arrivals spiked, most were economic migrants.

"They're people seeking an improvement in their economic circumstances, and therefore they've got to get into the regular migration stream," he said.
..

"There have been boats where 100 per cent of them have been people who are fleeing countries where they're the majority ethnic and religious group," he said.

"I think it's unarguable that if someone is leaving a country and they are part of the majority religious and ethnic group, then they're not being persecuted in the way that the Refugee Convention describes."

..
The United Nations' Refugee Convention describes persecution on the grounds of "race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion".

But Senator Carr said "no one on these boats in recent times has made the faintest reference to" political opinion or memberships of social group>

p://www.canberratimes.com.au/opinion/political-news/tougher-test-for-boat-people-vows-carr-in-jakarta-20130628-2p2xo.html#ixzz2XY8Br7pE

Onthebeach, I think bob Carr is spot on.

If Rudd is going to toughen the acceptance criteria, then good move. (Wow, it is hard to imagine Rudd actually doing something right!!)

Let’s not forget that it was he who opened up this enormous can of worms, and that everything he might do to stop the boats is directed towards unwinding the single worst political decision in the history of this country!

He really doesn’t deserve to be PM, let alone on the outside of a prison cell, for that piece of work! I mean, it was bleedingly obvious what a weakening of border-protection would lead to.

I started a general thread on this subject the day after the news of Rudd’s absurd dilution of Howard's border-protection policy broke, five years ago: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2019#41740

Luddy old boy, you'll have the lexi, marilyn shepherd, paul 1405, etc ec ganging up on you, after all they've vehemently disputed what we have been saying for so long. They can't possibly agree with us now ?
Or is it perhaps different when an ALP mutt had a moment of sense.

The first thing he has to do is take away the visa of all the ECONOMIC INVADERS that the INCOMPETENT Government said were real refugees. 90% were found to be real refugees, that has to be the joke of the year.

One died the other day but when you read his story he went to the UK but was deported back to Afghanistan in 2009, apparently because his grounds for protection were deemed to be insufficient. Then he fled to Australia and arrived on Christmas Island in 2010, saying he had been beaten by the Taliban.

$10 says the refugee advocates told him to say that part about the Taliban.

It also has to be noted Carr must have known everything for years but has only woken up now and is trying to fix the mess they caused. Funny how he said nothing when Juliar was PM.

I have been saying for years Indonesia and Malaysia are the problem they let them in knowing full well they are not going to go back home.

Maybe now they will fix the visa loophole.

But Senator Carr said "no one on these boats in recent times has made the faintest reference to" political opinion or memberships of social group TROUBLE is now they will start to say it.

individual - You beat me to the comment re the local refugee advocates lexi and company. BUT they will still come here and spew out the bull about the lovely refugees.

Let the paranoia continue ....

PJack - Quote "Let the paranoia continue ...."

WHAT would you call an estimated 30,000 per year economic invaders on welfare, taking homes that could be used by the hundred thousand homeless Australians? committing crimes at a rate higher than the local average (contrary to what the Government said).

Please enlighten everyone with your wisdom.

No, sorry, but I am still not convinced about 'economic migrants' abusing the system.

If you are well off and safe in the country you live in, why would you risk death for you and your family by travelling on a long sea voyage on relatively small, crowded, fishing boats, having used all of your money to pay people smugglers?

It doesn't make sense to me that unless you are desperate to leave your homeland, why would you risk drowning in order to leave?

As for the rubbish about being upset for all the 'poor homeless people' here in Australia, I doubt anyone here really does care about them.
The main problem is the upset at having all the Muslims come to Australia isn't it?

You nailed it suseonline, with your last sentence. If these people were white Christians from the USA, Canada, England etc etc then the bigots here would be SILENT.

Pjack I warned you!
Truth is avoided as much as possible in this debate.
Look not nice but fairdinkum most Australians want the boats stopped.
Abbott does not.
Until he is boss, it is too good a tool to put away, yet.
How do we or he stop them?
You will get many answers including turning on a sovereign nation, Indonesia.
We after building relation ships, both sides of Parliament, will not do that.
The world stands on the edge of a refugee crisis, the killings in Muslim country,s,the increased take over of some by Islamists, will double maybe triple the flow.
Of true refugees and the first wave, economic [those with big money to pay].
We may well see and should see3 the UNHCR make laws to take economic refugees out of its miss used protection rules.
Remember this is not an Australian only thing.
And too focus on the Arab Winter, it will chill us all.

Philip s,
our predictions were spot-on, the morons are coming out of their holes en-masse & signing up for the annual lemming run.

@Susie-on-something,

<<If you are well off and safe in the country you live in, why would you risk death ...>>

Relative to most of southern Asia practically everyone in Oz is BETTER OFF . If you were a small farmer or merchant anywhere in southern Asia, the Middle East or Africa why wouldn't you take the chance to elevate your financial position?

And as for <<the risk life and limb>>?

Heck, it is probably no more dangerous than crossing the street in Mumbai!

And you have the people smugglers --like, Mr Ambon, here telling them it's AOk

"I will take care of the boat, the engine, get it overhauled everything, get the fuel loaded, OK, the supplies loaded, OK"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-25/footage-shows-indonesian-people-smuggler-discussing-his-business/4777288

And its highly likely they relos or contacts already in Oz saying "come on down and enjoy the freebies, the livin is easy compared to back home!"

individual,

I wait patiently for the day when you're able to actually mount an argument without recourse to labelling anyone who doesn't agree with you as a moron....not holding my breath on that one.

Yes, I note the latest catch-phrase is "economic migrant". That's coming from both sides of the political fence.

I'm also curious as to why these people would flee, solely reliant on cramped unsafe vessels to make their way here. It certainly smacks more of desperation than a luxury cruise.

<<I'm also curious as to why these people would flee, solely reliant on cramped unsafe vessels to make their way here. It certainly smacks more of desperation...>>

Cripes, by that measure there must be lots of desperates out there!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S5FLbT_a7c

Poirot, "I'm also curious as to why these people would flee, solely reliant on cramped unsafe vessels to make their way here."

Where is the evidence that all, or even most of the are cramped and unsafe? Sure some may be. It suited the editorial slant of the publicly-funded national broadcaster to present it that way in the sensationalised productions made about boat people. Productions which inexplicably did not discover what has been proved, that boat people are largely economic migrants.

In fact from the photos of some of the vessels they are well representative of the craft that fishermen have used for centuries, and to visit Australia. Anyone doubting that should look at photos of the fishing boats caught taking illegal catch on the Great Barrier Reef and in other Australian waters. It is also worthwhile remembering that Australian fishermen use boats of similar and lesser size to trawl prawns and for other fishing. Australian fishermen use old boats too and they are used in the dangerous Southern ocean.

Where people smugglers differ is in their business model, people not fish, and they do try to maximise profits. They are criminals and criminals do not obey laws or care about others.

Poirot, "It certainly smacks more of desperation than a luxury cruise'

They have taken a jet plane into Indonesia, so your point is?

You are calling Kevin Rudd and his foreign minister Carr liars. But what is their motivation and where is your proof?

Merely an observation, onthebeach.

I'm quite happy to admit that I know little of the machinations involved in the exodus.

I do believe, however, that either side believing it can grab those boats by the scruff of the neck and return them to point of departure while bobbing about on the high seas is fairyland stuff.

With a challenge such as this, governments are required to go to the source of the problem and find a solution in the first instance - not the last.

I was reading some figures regarding refugees which gave the numbers in Malaysia at over 200,000 and ours around 30,000. There's a diaspora occurring for whatever reason...something common among humans intermittently.

Telling them to F... Off because we're full and making noises about "turning them around" is merely flailing in the wind.

@Poirot,

<< I was reading some figures regarding refugees which gave the numbers in Malaysia at over 200,000>>

Yes, well, the leftwing rags that you tend to read would say that.

But point No.1
Most in Malaysia are NOT refugees by any stretch of the imagination, they're simple illegals seeking work opportunities --or economic migrants in transit to OZ.

And point No.2
How many of those "refugees" does Malaysia grant full and permanent citizenship, with all the trimmings, to each year--any idea? hint: you'll only need one hand to count!

My point being, SPQR, that refugees/migrants from the Middle-East and North Africa are in the hundreds of thousands in Europe and other parts -

Australia receives a trickle of the overall amount.

Again, just an observation.

Many would say that the design and sea-keeping of those Indonesian timber fishing vessels make them superior to the hull designs we use. They surprise us with their hull speeds (hull efficiency) too.

The West has kept to traditions, as has the East, but we don't have the skills, timber and cheap labour to build what they do. Many of our private luxury yachts are made in Asia and those boat builders are famous world-wide. Would that we had their inherited tradition of craftmanship.

The media are clueless and a navy captain would likely not class even a modern 102 metre Cape Class patrol boat as true 'ocean going'. Over-crowded as required by the greed of people smugglers, a Cape Class patrol boat would be criticised as cramped and unsafe too.

Poirot,

No. Your point was to try and make Oz appear the odd one out in the region as in "Wow! look at how many the Malaysians take".

You second attempt with the same MO but different exemplar , this time Europe , is equally ill-considered.

Most of what Europe "takes" are again not "refugees".They are economic migrants they simply can't turn around. The OLO poster Divergence talks of 100,000's of rejects who simply go missing/go underground and stay-on (look up her posts, they are well worth reading, and much more informative than The Guardian!)

I recall an edition of Radio Deutsche Welle, wherein they reported a survey of north Africans found (from memory) that over half wanted to emigrate to Europe--the figure for Asians who wanted to emigrate to OZ would likely be much higher.

Wake up to the fact that "asylum seeking" is one of the biggest baddest scams around!

Suseonline - Quote "If you are well off and safe in the country you live in, why would you risk death for you and your family" You have the answer but you don't see it - They are safe but not well off a lot have to borrow money or use all they have left to get here and most importantly VERY few countries have a social security system so where ever they were they would have to work (if they can get it and at a low wage) to an old age.

Quote "As for the rubbish about being upset for all the 'poor homeless people' here in Australia, I doubt anyone here really does care about them." That is your opinion.

Simple fact is they have large families because the children are there social security blanket for old age. BUT in the countries they are there is very little work and very low wages, in Indonesia & Malaysia they work for peanuts and somewhere to stay. So come to the land of the GOLDEN HANDSHAKE.

Belly - Quote "We may well see and should see3 the UNHCR make laws to take economic refugees out of its miss used protection rules." Please translate into English?

"I think it's unarguable that if someone is leaving a country and they are part of the majority religious and ethnic group, then they're not being persecuted in the way that the Refugee Convention describes."

This is the dumbest statement I have come across in a long time. How many dictatorships do you know off which have majority support ? for example the vast majority of people fleeing Syria belong to the majority ethnic group. If the only criteria is to be religious or ethnic persecution you have just denied the existence of some 80% of the people who are looking for somewhere safe to live their lives and bring up their families.

Quote below from the UN refuge charter Page 14.

Note it says nothing about majority anywhere.

"owing to wellfounded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear,
is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who,
not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former
habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such
fear, is unwilling to return to it."

http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/search/?page=&comid=3c07a8642&cid=49aea9390&scid=49aea9398

As can be expected where millions of dollars of taxpayers' money has been made available, educated middle class professionals have been quick and entrepreneurial in making a profitable industry and careers out of boat arrivals.

Hello Warmair (appropriate name by the way!),

<< the vast majority of people fleeing Syria belong to the majority ethnic group>>

Yes, but they have sought sanctuary in Jordan next door, they didn't go on a worldwide shopping trip for the most affluent location. And it's a safe bet that the HUGE majority will return to Syria once it settles down--whoever wins.

Did the Ash Wednesday fires or Qld floods entitled anyone affected to permanent residency in the US?

<<owing to well-founded fear of being persecuted>>
As it currently stands they don't have establish anything --just tell a good story.

Warmair, is there some connection between you wanting to sell us down river on the AGW/IPCC scam and you're wanting to open up our borders to the all-comers on the asylum-seeker scam. I mean, is it just that you don't like us, or do you have a deeper malady? just curious!

http://www.watoday.com.au/nsw/syrian-war-triggers-sydney-trouble-20130629-2p3vn.html
Economic or not this link warns us all.
And indeed threatens us too.
Forget the PC ignore those who brand us for our views.
But do not ignore the great changes current migration trends have bought to this part of Sydney.
The same streets once owned by both working class Australians and migrants who came, not to live separately but both remembered their country of origin and took their place here as one of us.
We will see blood on our streets, it just can not be avoided.
Like the riot, that is what it was, based on events in another country the middle east is imploding.
We and other western country,s will suffer, because we tried to help a group unable to help them selves.

Kevin Rudd would still be hanging out for a job with the UN and Kevin does believe in his "Big Australia" and stuff sustainability.

Labor's treacherous side-kicks the Greens are ecstatic about anyone who is not Australian. The Greens verbally beat up young Australian couples for wanting to have children. The Greens admonish them as 'breeders' who don't care about over-population. But the Greens throw open the gates to anyone from elsewhere, as long as they are not their hated 'whites' (?!, being 'Progressive' is complicated).

SPOR, Belly and Onthebeach , would you guys be so paranoid about the few asylum seekers who make it to our shores without drowning, if they were White South Africans leaving war-torn Africa and boating it here across the Indian Ocean?

If you were living in war ravaged, violent places like Syria, Afganistan, Pakistan, or similar countries, wouldn't you also try to relocate your family to the best country you could get to?

The Government sorts through the asylum seekers that come by boat, and decides who are genuine refugees, and who are not.
I have no doubt the immigration officials are as tough with 'boat people' as they are with ALL would be migrants to Australia.

I doubt there are any hidden agendas with this process, and if they then have to find somewhere for them to live, then that is only the humane thing to do.

Suseonline - Quote "The Government sorts through the asylum seekers that come by boat, and decides who are genuine refugees, and who are not. I have no doubt the immigration officials are as tough with 'boat people' as they are with ALL would be migrants to Australia."

I give you exhibit 1 Captain Emad. That was a Joke the king of the smugglers.

I give you exhibit 2 The lies the Government said about only 4 or less refugees committed crimes.

I give you exhibit 3 The public servant a year or so ago who said they were told to pass some.

I give you exhibit 4 A week or so ago the Government admitted only around 10% were really checked out properly.
Would you like to live next to the other 90%?

Dear onthebeach,

The following link may help to clarify a few things:

http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=222

We can only hope and trust that both major political
parties will be able to put aside their politics
and come together not to score political points but
to put aside their differences and try to look at the
bigger picture at finding solutions to this complex
problem. Taking advice from security forces and the
Australian Defence Force may help. Consultation between
the major parties would be a step in the right direction.

Lexi - Are you for real the article is dated May 2004 it is 9 years ago that may have been the case then BUT now it is different.

Now I can understand why you are so BLIND you are relying on information over 9 years old.

Please come into the new century.

Suseonline, "If you were living in war ravaged, violent places like Syria, Afganistan, Pakistan, or similar countries, wouldn't you also try to relocate your family to the best country you could get to?"

I notice you now say "best country" not the first country.

However, just leaving that to one side, PM Rudd and Foreign Minister Carr have said that these are definitely economic migrants, motivated by gain.

Suseonline, "The Government sorts through the asylum seekers that come by boat, and decides who are genuine refugees, and who are not.
I have no doubt the immigration officials are as tough with 'boat people' as they are with ALL would be migrants to Australia"

Did you read the article? See here,

<The United Nations' Refugee Convention describes persecution on the grounds of "race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion".

But Senator Carr said "no one on these boats in recent times has made the faintest reference to" political opinion or memberships of social group>

As the government has found, the assessment process is hampered by many things. The first hurdle is no doubt that they have destroyed their papers. Another is that immigration officials and courts have been operating in the dark, without up to date knoeledge necessary to arrive at informed decisions. See here from the link supplied in the OP,

<Senator's Carr's Foreign Affairs Department would provide courts and tribunals with large folders of "objective information" about the source countries for refugee cases.

"We should have our best diplomats providing hard, sourced information," he said, which would mean tribunal members and judges would "have less discretion on whether [refugees are claiming] persecution".

"We need to be more hard-edged about this," he said.>

PM Rudd and Foreign Minister Carr are firm about the facts. That means that labbyists for the economic migrants and the Greens are telling deliberate lies because they would know better. Who will keep the Greens protest party 'bastards' honest? The media lets them off Scot free from rigorous examination every time.

Lexi,

Whay would you prefer that dated activist blurb to the informed and independent statements by the Australian PM and Foreign Minister? They are answerable to Parliament.

<<I'm also curious as to why these people would flee, solely reliant on cramped unsafe vessels to make their way here.
Poirot,
I don't know why you seem to not want to accept. They're not refugees in a refugee sense. They're on a mission, they have an agenda, the reason why they come to Australia is because it is the last frontier for them. I have spoken with some in the smuggling business & they confirm what I am telling you here.
if you have been brainwashed into believing that you're going to heaven & all that if you play along with those who push you then you too would jump on those boats.

The economic migrant chooses the country of destination based on perceived rewards and ease. He doesn't choose the boat. It is chosen by the smuggling gang. People smuggling by sea is very cheap and profits are high. Profits are maximised by choice of a low cost boat. The boat can be even cheaper where a phone call to the gang's Oz counterparts can result in a pick-op by an Australian navy vessel just outside of Indonesian waters.

As an economic migrant might see it, it is only a very short trip out to sea with the actual journey being provided by an Australian navy vessel.

Onthebeach "But Senator Carr said "no one on these boats in recent times has made the faintest reference to" political opinion or memberships of social group>"

Oh well , if Senator Carr says it, then it must be true eh?
'Coz politicians never lie, right?

It wouldn't be because he wants to play on the 'paranoia' of racist constituents, for political gain at all, would it?

Noooooo......

Suseonline - You seemed to have missed my comments to you, I would not like to think you were in anyway biased so I have repeated them for you.

Suseonline - Quote "The Government sorts through the asylum seekers that come by boat, and decides who are genuine refugees, and who are not. I have no doubt the immigration officials are as tough with 'boat people' as they are with ALL would be migrants to Australia."

I give you exhibit 1 Captain Emad. That was a Joke the king of the smugglers.

I give you exhibit 2 The lies the Government said about only 4 or less refugees committed crimes.

I give you exhibit 3 The public servant a year or so ago who said they were told to pass some.

I give you exhibit 4 A week or so ago the Government admitted only around 10% were really checked out properly.
Would you like to live next to the other 90%?

I didn't miss your comments at all PhillipS, I was just more keen to address Onthebeach's issues at that moment in time.

As you have rightly pointed out, Government members do lie.
So why couldn't Senator Carr's comments also be lies?
Surely you aren't just cherry picking whose comments you want to believe or not?

How would you know who I already live next to?
How do you know I'm not an immigrant too?
After all, aren't ALL non-Aboriginal Australians descended from immigrants anyway?

Suseonline I happen to think it is vital you and others holding such views reconsider them.
Two weeks ago some considered me a thoughtless grub, for my view on Gillard.
And for the advice only Rudd could return Labor, if not to power to its people.
Your words to me, and others, saying our views on Migration/Refugees are, well you tell me.
A truth no one should ignore, such minded people, just as the ranting few from the right, are a danger to my party and country.
We, too often, forget more voters would abandon us, any party, that became deaf to majority's wants.
This morning news, in NSW at least, tells of young Syrians returning to fight in a war, and being asked to by religious leaders.
We must not forget world wide refugees many not attempting to hide the fact they are economic ones,is near 20 million.
And overnight could be 100 million.
The impending return of western troops from Afghanistan, only could see our country face hundreds of thousands.
Remember we are a place struggling to find out how big we can get without us doing great harm to our environment.

Suse,
Look at the demographic profile of refugees fleeing the fighting in Syria, over 80% of them are women and children, all the men are fighting or have stayed behind in their home towns and many of those men who are in the camps are fighters recuperating from wounds who will return to battle.
Now look at the illegal immigrants coming to Australia, what proportion of them are men of "fighting age", that's between 15 and 60?
We're not allowed to know that, are we?
Is it 90%? 80%?

Suseonline,
are you a religious muslim fanatic because of your vehement defence of them coming here ?
You most certainly do not give a hoot about Australia nor do you seem to care that the handful of genuine refugees get the raw deal because of the likes of you who give preference & resources to the shanks, depriving the genuine, nor do you seem to give it any thought at all why people become refugees in the first place. they become refugees because they have too many Suseonlines, Paul1405's, Lexis, Poirots etc ruining their countries like they attempt to do here. In a word despicable, selfish, ignorant cowards.

individual, your ridiculous claim that refugees are the creation of people with a social conscience such as those you name. All alone failing to mention your ignorant self who is a blind supporter of imperialist policies of the west that have failed millions of people in the past, and continues to fail millions today. Afghanistan and Iraq are two present day examples of the consequences of failed western policy. Many millions still suffer from the effects of the injustices of colonialism. And you want to blame people with a social conscience, You remind me of the British after WWII, when they marched out of their colonial possessions with much pomp and ceremony and left the inhabitants uneducated, impoverished and disillusioned, with none of the tools necessary to create a successful society. When these people fail, and fail they did, it's the likes of you who points the finger and says "Shame,shame, shame, I told you so these savages would fail, its all their fault!"

Susie,

<<(some) Government members have been shown to lie.
Carr is a Govt member, how do we know Carr is not lying >>

It sounds like a philosophy 101 conundrum --though it does appear that you missed the associated tutorial, which would have explained it all to you!

How do we know? because the examples that PhilipS cited for you --and which your ideological blinkers wont allow you to absorb-- show specific cases where we were told one thing and it was later shown to be otherwise.(actually the weight of evidence ALWAYS showed otherwise --but govt spokespersons previously poo-poo it)

Here they are once again:

--Not only did Captain Emad get through our *very strict vetting processes* he made a business out it.(and --the funniest part of all-- when people sought to follow up investigations of his fraud they were told by the govt dept it couldn't comprise client ( Capt Emad's) confidentiality ROFLAO

--Similarly we were told, repeatedly, that asylum scammers we exemplary candidates -- it was belately admitted/shown this wasn't the case.

--And, as Philips indicated there has been numerous cases where whistle blowers have highlighted inadequacies in the vetting process

SPECIFIC CASES ,SUSIE-- unlike the generic waffle you spout

Bob Carr has now had the courage to say what the weight of evidence has been showing for a long time:We are being conned by asylum scammers.Pity there were not more like Bob Carr (any chance of dumping Kevin and elevating Bob?)

PS AND, The Aborigines are immigrants too-- "anyway".

As an economic migrant myself from Ireland, I take great exception to the insults hurled at me by all the other economic migrants on this thread.

So PhillipS gave us 4 "specific cases" then?
4 out of thousands of asylum seekers.
Oh well, that just proves it then doesn't it.

For goodness sake, the vast majority of these boat people ARE found to be genuine refugees, or else they wouldn't be allowed to stay here!

The vast majority of non-Aborigial people who migrated to Australia in the first instance were coming here for a better life too.
The only difference was that they weren't Muslim

At least Individual feels able to express his obvious anti-all-things-Muslim stance, while the rest of you dance around the edges.

It makes me feel ill...

Suse,

<<So PhillipS gave us 4 "specific cases" then?
4 out of thousands of asylum seekers.
Oh well, that just proves it then doesn't it>>

Philip's examples were not isolated instances --they indicate deeper systemic problems/collusion and corruption.

<<For goodness sake, the vast majority of these boat people ARE found to be genuine refugees, or else they wouldn't be allowed to stay here!>>

They are not "found to be genuine", that is a good part of the problem.
All they need do nowadays is tell a reasonable story.

<<The vast majority of non-Aborigial people who migrated to Australia in the first instance were coming here for a better life too>>

Yes, but they werent applying for special entry under the Refugee Convention, were they!

<<At least Individual feels able to express his obvious anti-all-things-Muslim stance, while the rest of you dance around the edges>>

Actually the majority of Sri Lankans, Tamil or Singhalese would NOT be muslims.

<<It makes me feel ill...>>

That seems to have been a pre-existing condition, dont blame it on the thread!

_____________________________________________________

Warmair,

<<As an economic migrant myself from Ireland...>>

As an *honorary* Irishman ( at least for today) I take exception to you bringing your Irish origins into this debate, since your below par performance can only reflect poorly on on all good Irishfolk.

And as I recall Ireland's troubles started with (uninvited) foreigners landing on their shores!

Suseonline - Your lack of logic defies comprehension.

I gave 4 examples but if you extrapolate "The lies the Government said about only 4 or less refugees committed crimes." That one involved HUNDREDS of crimes.

Also "The public servant a year or so ago who said they were told to pass some." That number assessed as okay WRONGLY could potentially be thousands

Also you are missing the other very important FACT only around 10% are properly checked that means in excess of 35,000 got a free pass.

To quote you "For goodness sake, the vast majority of these boat people ARE found to be genuine refugees, or else they wouldn't be allowed to stay here!" CAN"T YOU READ only 10% were checked properly.

Please consider what you write in future to avoid embarrassing yourself.

Yes you have a point about Government lies but the weight of evidence at the moment is These are mostly ECONOMIC INVADERS.

I'm the descendant of a lot of poor economic migrants who have contributed a huge amount to this country, and I predict that the migrants of today (economic / refugee) will do the same once we actually make them feel at home. In fact if they are 'economic migrants' that indicates that they have aspirations to better themselves and will work hard to do so given half a chance. The current rule to prevent them from working seems totally stupid - if (for example) they are taking up all the houses for Australian homeless, well, put them to work building more!

I have pretty much given up on The Forum because of the unpleasant language - it's one thing to have different opinions, quite another to insult and belittle those who disagree with you. My advice to Suzie,Lexi, Paul etc. - just stop posting and leave the rest to a mutual exchange of ill-will.

Cossomby,

We have to think of the OLO's electricity bill.

If we allow the usual suspects free reign, in no time they will have installed a flashing neon sign which reads " Boat People = Economic Migrants".... something akin to that which the two major parties are now working on.

Of course, that should be "free rein",

(We don't want them to get above themselves:)

Cossemby,

Am I correct in thinking that your parents were migrants from the UK and came to Australia as part of the post-WW2 assisted immigration?

If so, there is bugger-all similarity between the lawful invited migration of yourself and your parents legally with papers and all above board on the Fairsea and the economic migrants who are arriving illegally through people smuggling.

The government is endeavouring to stop deaths at sea by breaking the business model of the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling. What remedy do you suggest instead?

Cossemby,

<< I'm the descendant of ... economic migrants yada yada yada which roughly translates to: economic migrants are the best thing since sliced bread>>

There are other avenues for economic migrants who wish to move to OZ. Let them utilize those channels --NOT the Refugee Convention!

<< I predict that the migrants of today (economic / refugee) will do [settle in well] >>

Or, we could turn out like Kosovo or Lebanon --or some of the western suburbs of Sydney!

<<The current rule to prevent them from working seems totally stupid ...put them to work building more!>>

On the surface that seems fine --but there are two potential problems:
1) Will they be willing/able to do the hard yakka entailed
2) A more serious issue, when they are not able to find work on the open market there will be calls to introduce "special opportunites" for them --code for positive discrimination to ensure they get first pick of the jobs on offer.


<<I have pretty much given up on The Forum because of the unpleasant language>>

Let's face it, you've given up 'cause you want everyone to sing from your hymn book.
There are plenty of other forums on the internet that catter to lefties --in fact most are censored and controlled by lefties

<< Suzie,Lexi, Paul etc>>
So let's see now, of the a forenamed NONE have EVER, EVER used the terms bigots, racists or bogans (or implied their opponents were bigots or racists or bogans?)
Tell me again, where did you buy your blinkers?

___________________________________________

Poirot,

<<If we allow the usual suspects free reign, in no time they will have installed a flashing neon sign which reads " Boat People = Economic Migrants">>

Still, it would be a darn-side more honest than calling them "irregular maritime arrivees" or "asylum seekers" or "child refugees" when they're aged in their thirties

To Suzie,Lexi, Paul, and Co.

That includes officer Poirot of the internet etiquette police.

I will make 1 statement and have 2 questions for you.

With the passage of time say the last 2 years the overwhelming weight of evidence that has eventually come out is that the majority of people are ECONOMIC refugees, very little if any has come out to support that the majority are genuine refugees.

Now do you honestly have the same conviction to your cause now as you had 2 years ago, if so what evidence do you use to support that?

Wow, you people do waffle on.
Can't you see (like I have) that Mr. PJack is always right.
Remember "1984"

Take a breath folks, big news is on the way.
Carr in highlighting the truth has told us that much.
Mr Rudd Hon PM, is heading for Indonesia this week.
So wait and watch.
Saw Bishop the younger this morning on the TV is it just ,me?
Is she every bit as NASTY as Mirabela?, hope not but close.
Warning! Abbott,s front bench should take note fear tactics are now a turn off.
Policy.s are his last straw.
Any one seen Mr Turnbull?

I don't know why everybody wants to stop the boat people coming into this huge country of ours? Theres plenty of room with millions of miles of empty space that hardly a living person has even stood. Many of these boat people have many jobs to do with growing things in the desert conditions and sandy type soil, so why won't we let them all in to help us all turn the desert and other bad soil into ground able to grow stuff in? Or is it because we don't like people from other countrys? Racist, Racist, is the reason why. And because we are too greedy and mean to shear all out great wealth with other people less fortnunate then us!?

Dear onthebeach,

You made some statements about the Main Stream Media (MSM)
and I've just read them. I believe that we should read
from a wide variety of sources in order to glean an
informed opinion and as you know the MSM is notoriously
narrow in its point of view. I gave you the link from
the University of Oxford in the UK - which has done a great
deal of research on migration information. Much of is is
very relevant today. I made the
assumption that you were genuinely interested in having
a discussion on the topic rather than playing politics and
finger-pointing. Obviously I was wrong.
I shall leave you to continue as you were. And won't
interfere any further. Just one more link before I go:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/business/media-2/ten-reasons-why-most-australian-msm-journalists-are-absolute-shyte/

Lexi,

I wanted to know why you would prefer a dated, irrelevant article written by a researcher in England who has not had access to recent Australian information to very recent statements by the Australian PM and Foreign Minister, both of whom are relying on the advice of DFAT, Dept of Immigration and government research.

The PM and Foreign Minister are Labor too and you would normally be hanging on their words as Gospel. But you reject what they say out of hand and without prooof to back yourself up.

Have you ever considered that you yourself might be biassed? You are dismissing facts known about fraudulent 'asylum seekers' that prove they are economic migrants.

As a way ahead, what about you propose a way of breaking the business model of people smugglers that is costing so many lives?

Lexi - All media has an agenda, but the do provide facts supported by other source and that is what I use you have been unable to dispute anything I have said, correct me if i am wrong.

Also your article before was 9 years ago, as I stated before Please come into the new century.

Like usual you fail to answer the hard questions so here they are again.

With the passage of time say the last 2 years the overwhelming weight of evidence that has eventually come out is that the majority of people are ECONOMIC refugees, very little if any has come out to support that the majority are genuine refugees.

Now do you honestly have the same conviction to your cause now as you had 2 years ago, if so what evidence do you use to support that?

Dear onthebeach,

Kindly read the link I gave earlier. Suggested answers
are there as well as the problems that nation states
are faced with when dealing with this complex issue.

We all have a certain amount of bias - not matter what
the issues being discussed. However, doing one's
research from a wide variety of sources helps us to make
more informed decisions - and that is something that I
strongly recommend.

As for economic refugees. And
what can be done about them? I believe that Foreign
Minister Bob Carr stated that the Rudd government is
about to rewrite Australia's refugee assessment process.
Senator Carr stated that immigrants who were not part of any
ethnic or religious minority could not argue that they
were being persecuted in their home country. "I think it's
unarguable that if someone is leaving a country and they
are part of the majority religious and ethnic group, then
they're not being persecuted in the way that the Refugee
Convention describes," said Mr Carr.

Lexi is doing what she accuses the media of doing, cherry-picking to support her pre-determined view. That is prejudice.

There is a lack of fair dealing, dishonesty and fraud, by economic migrants and by those who advocate for them and that is because of the huge rewards, courtesy of the long-suffering Australian taxpayer. Where there is $$ there is graft.

What is truly offensive is the continual sledging of the Australian population and now the new Labor PM and Foreign Minister as 'racists' for pointing out the obvious.

Lexi - Quote "We all have a certain amount of bias" Yours is that you continually fail to avoid answering questions.

The reasons for this failure could be numerous from dementia, to you just failing to have any counter to provided facts.

There was one thread you failed 6 times to answer questions by myself alone not to count the questions posed by others.

May I suggest a name change for you to Emu (head buried in the sand) or turtle (withdrawn into your shell).

It amazes me how you continually manage to fail to see posts directly below or above yours.

people with a social conscience such as those you name.
Paul1405,
You talking social conscience & then you go & support the ALP ? You're worse than Belly could ever dream to be. Those countries which produce the real refugees are full of people who occupy positions of no use to their constituents i.e. like the people I named. People who use up funding for no economic return whatsoever i.e. like tens of thousands of public servants licking stamps.
many of these countries have great resources but just like in Australia only a handful get something out of it. Believe me there are a lot of Australians who would jump on a boat to go to a better country if only other countries would accept them like Australia does. Ever bothered to find out why so many australian pensioners move to Malaysia, Indonesia & the Philipines ? Many want to but the lousy Aust. Govt. stops paying their pension after three monts.
Have you not seen some of those ungrateful self-proclaimed refugees who live off our social security money & blatantly denounce our way of life ? Are these the people you're supporting just because they bleat refugee ?

misanthrope,
Unfortunately Sir you are 100% correct with your question about why they want to stop these people coming here. The only argument I have against it is that I would prefer them to not be aggravated Islamists hell bent of eradicating us humble infidels.
Sooner or later the Islamic religion will rule the earth whether we like it or not. Christianity will disappear like all isms have in the past. It won't be tomorrow, it may not be for another two hundred years but it will happen.
So we will not stop them coming but we can turn the problem to our advantage. Some sort of contract of regional residency that creates decentralization and population growth in the areas outside the cities.
Anybody that takes the risks these people take to get here has a lot more going for them that the hordes of dole bludgers we have here at the moment.
Who cares if their women want to wrap themselves up and sweat to death in the Aussie heat. We might even be able to re educate their kids into not hating us so much. So long as they conform to out laws let them in.
Think of how much we save by not subsidizing their air fares as refugees.

Indy worse than Belly?
On what basis do you class me?
You clearly do not understand you are not a likely poster to judge anyone.
Fixed in your own thoughts, at least in print,you seem to need help.
Paul 1405 is a green, that is his right.
You however have failed to prove to me you understand much about the subject of politics.
If it pleases you to judge others, but not review your own long history of histrionic posting go ahead.

You however have failed to prove to me you understand much about the subject of politics.
Ah, Belly & you do eh ?
I must admit I never knew that politics was about putting the most incompetent academics you can find into Government.
I always thought Politics was about trying to get as much competence in government as possible & that's why I started to support the Coalition since that big Goaf. Going by his level of competence Rudd's achievement will be to make Goaf turn in his grave.

economic migrant myself from Ireland,
warmair,
Don't take it too hard, the Irish always have been & always will be excempt. :-)

Indi, you possess a blinkered and irrational view of the world, you perceive everything through your minds eye, take this quote of yours; " i.e. like tens of thousands of public servants licking stamps." this is your typical irrational view, your hated of public servants spills over to the point where you have convinced yourself that government employees are nothing more than a seething bunch of lazy incompetents, stealing from the public purse. You have no evidence for most of what you claim about anything, but would rather twist your blind opinions through your own distortions into becoming an irrational version of the truth. I only use the "public servant" quote as an example of what I claim about your way of thinking. You seem to apply that thought process whenever you want to establish the facts of a matter, be it asylum seekers, welfare precipitants, public servants whatever.
Your not alone in the world when it comes to turning blinkered opinions into the "truth".

this is your typical irrational view,
Paul1405,
if I have an irrational view then you have no view at all. I SEE public servants waste huge dollars on a daily basis yet you try to contradict my experience. Let this sink into you & then try to digest. 85% of the public service IS OF NO USE TO ANYONE except themselves. I do not as you say have a hatred of public servants at all, many are very good people indeed. My problem is that they could be gainfully employed instead of just being employed. The people to blame for this are those who vote ALP.

Dear Philip S., and onthebeach,

Let's forgoe all this personal negativity and try to stick
to the issues. Philip, you seem to be obsessing about my
not answering you questions in the past. I actually did,
several times. I simply did not agree with your take on
things which upsets you. That's your problem, not mine.

I entered this discussion in good faith, however I'm not
interested in pursuing the same negative agenda
that has occurred thus far.

The
PM is going to Jakarta for a meeting with the Indonesians
on Thursday. The Foreign Minister has indicated that
future assessments of refugee applications should become
more "hard-edged." The PM has also offered the Opposition
leader the opportunity to come on board in trying to
solve this issue. These are all positive attempts in trying
to find solutions. I don't believe that all refugees making
applications are economic refugees. Certainly some would be.
But we need to get evidence of this - and not simply make
sweeping statements and accusations.

Lexi, "But we need to get evidence of this - and not simply make
sweeping statements and accusations"

That is your opinion of Kevin Rudd PM, Senator Bob Carr the Foreign Minister and the senior bureaucrats in DFAT and other interested departments.

You haven't presented a case to convince a taxpayer how the hard-earned taxes forcibly taken from him/her by the State will be expended to deliver value for money in assisting refugees.

As a taxpayer I can't see the worth in flogging naval vessels and crews with constant high speed charges across seas. We are constantly propping up the business model of the criminal gangs.

I also can't see the value for money for taxpayers and legitimate refugees in an antiquated assessment and appeal system that is extremely expensive and slow, and does not do what it is supposed to do. I don't care why it doesn't work, but I do care that my taxes are spent for the purposes they are appropriated and that value for money is always obtained.

What do you say to that?

I understand but disagree with, the concerns some have for these refugees/economic migrants.
I understand, and have zero doubt,*Tony Abbott does not want to stop the boats* until he is PM.
Too that our best chance to stop them is visiting that country they leave from on Friday.

Belly,

Just forgetting generation costs and benefits -and I reckon the idea is to get the minimum panels that will generatte the maximum you are using daylight hours (think about why)- there are other issues that could come into play.

While on a roof the other day with an older roofing tradesman, he pointed at a house nearby to show me some corrosion already forming on the roof from solar panels installed about 2 years ago. Then ensued a discussion between us about the different types of metal roofing and the metals used in solar installations. The sort of problem I am talking about is better known from instances of aluminium ballustrades that unexpectedly let go where there has been electrolysis between the aluminium ballustrade and fastenings.Not funny at all.

While on the other side of the roof we were on, the roofer pointed out the house next door with a solar system on a tiled roof. What do you know but the installer had anchored brackets on some of the valleys of tiles and not on the apexes. Easier than relocating the brackets I suppose. When the silastic shrinks (and I bet they uesd cheap stuff) the roof will leak.

I watched a solar installation at another place and they were rough and careless with the sarking where they lifted some tiles for some reason. That sarking was installed for a purpose.

Yes, I know there will be some who say that a 'good' installer will 'make sure' and instal 'quality'. But just how can a lay person make an informed choice in the first place?

When the utes leave it can be a few years before you wake to a problem and then proving it is problematic.

Belly, why not pay a roofer to check the installation? Write a simple agreement to that effect.

The quick witted and well off who got in fast when dumb-ass Labor governments over-paid benefits for generation are "I'm OK, Jack" (except for possible roofing problems), but any who come later need to take extra care I reckon.

Ouch, sorry to all. I just posted the above to the wrong thread. Should have been to, "Solar Power worth it or not?"

Dear onthebeach,

There may be many things with which taxpayers are
going to disagree as far as the spending of money
is concerned- not only the issue of asylum seekers.
We know how expensive it is - we learned that from
the Howard government - who spent a fortune on
asylume seekers - and they ended up in Australia anyway.
However, as long as we retain and are signatories to
the Refugee Convention - our governments are under
certain obligations and are forced to continue to maintain
certain conditions. What you can do though is - elect
who you think can do a better job at the next election.
I don't approve on the huge sums of taxpayers money that's
being spent on former PMs for the rest of their lives
(and that's aside from their generous pensions and other perks).
But
there you go - there's nothing I can do about it - unless we
change the legislation. Taxpayers money is being spent
needlessly in many areas - including middle-class welfare,
and other tax benefits for the already wealthy. The next
election is very important - to weigh the pros and cons
of the type of direction in which this country needs to go.
That will be your chance to do something about it.

Cheers.

Lexi,

What you are really saying is that refugees are not your priority at all. First come, first serve and if economic migrants have the deep pockets and are prepared to deal with criminals, then fine they can jog real law-abiding refugees down the queue.

You are defending the fraud of the quick-witted middle class (they would certainly qualify as middle class where they come from) and a brutal industry that delivers millions to criminal gangs (who care naught about their human cargos) and damages the chances of genuine refugees finding asylum.

Why do you do that? Do you have employment in the industry somewhere, or is it simply that you follow what (say) the Greens or Green Left tell you is right?

Why wouldn't you want to put refugees first? How would you explain your stance to them?

A couple of comments on the responses to my post yesterday.

1. Were my ancestors postWW2 migrants? No. I have roughly 10 separate ancestral arrivals, between 1793 and 1927 (the last from NZ, but dating back there to the 1860s). Yes, the first were convicts, all the rest economic migrants.

2. Do I want everyone to 'sing from my hymnbook'. No. But I find many comment repetitive, predictable and not based on facts. Then when other people request evidence or provide counter evidence, they get attacked. I dislike the patronising tone of some posters - using terms such as sweetie or dearie. On the other hand, resorting to condescension is a pretty good sign that you have lost the argument!

I have a challenge for posters: how about playing devil's advocate occasionally? Take a topic on which you have strong views and argue the opposite case. This is a standard procedure in formal debating, and it's also a useful tool - a good way of testing the weaknesses in your own beliefs.

Same old, same old, onthebeach.

I'm sure your heart bleeds for the "real refugees".

The only difference between those in camps elsewhere and those who turn up here, is that those who are in camps elsewhere "aren't here".

But they're so convenient to reference when one is trying to take the moral high ground, whilst simultaneously demonising their brothers and sisters.

What's wrong with economic migrants?

We need to be a country which is smarter, more innovative and more entrepreneurial. Who are likely too be the smarter, innovative and entrepreneurial migrants? The ones who sit around patiently in a refugee camp for decades waiting to got through the bureaucratic hoops to maybe get here? Or the ones who risk everything - beg, borrow or steal enough to get on a boat, or whose families sell everything they have to risk their children's lives? If you've lived all your life in the mountains of Afghanistan or similar and never seen the sea, what nerve does it take to get on a leaky overcrowded boat? And what do we do with these entrepreneurial risk-takers when they get here? We should take advantage of their energy and set up work projects, language and skill training. (Indeed, we need to do the same to energise our own unemployed and underskilled people.)

There are millions of refugees in the work, and there will be millions more in the future. We cannot take all the millions of people who deserve help (and there needs to be a coordinated global program of resettlement) - our 'legal' refugee program picks out a mere handful of the deserving millions. Maybe we need to be more pragmatic - maybe the ones we really need for the future of this country are those who are prepared to risk all to get here.

Lexi,

Stop Lying.

You keep repeating the Labor mantra, even when proven wrong.

Only 43% of those sent to Nauru came to Australia, which is not even close to "most"

Labor is spending more than 10x as much as Howard ever did, with more illegal immigrants arriving every day than every year under Howard.

...and other tax benefits for the already wealthy. The next
election is very important - to weigh the pros and cons
of the type of direction in which this country needs to go.
That will be your chance to do something about it.

Yes Lexi, but unfortunately, governments change their minds mid steam, and what we voted for, often no longer happens. Both sides by the way.

...What's wrong with economic migrants?
Cossomby, if migrants wish to migrate to Australia, they should go via the appropriate channels, which these are not.

That's what's wrong with these economic migrants.

< maybe the ones we really need for the future of this country are those who are prepared to risk all to get here.>

Yes, but why support organised crime when you could devise alternatives? Your condition that migrants should "risk all" would also be satisfied by having potential Aussies run across a mine field. TV rights could be sold to the highest bidder, and no doubt the TV networks would want to make the course a bit more difficult so as to maintain ratings.

The truth is that the Australian Government is totally responsible for the crime, the deaths, and the cost as it sets the rules which gives great advantage to those who risk all. A TV network would be torn asunder and its executives jailed for doing the same, and rightly so.

The rules must change.

Cossomby,
Could you please provide some evidence that low IQ migrants from the Horn Of Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan are anything but a burden to their host societies?
Median IQ
Sudan:72
Ethiopia:63
Afghanistan:83
Pakistan: 81
India: 81

Thus far the bulk of our immigration has been from populations which have a median IQ of around 100, Europeans and Northeast Asians,we have a complex society where people are expected to be able to function at that level to succeed. It's also demonstrably true that people of low intelligence fail in this environment, so your desire for legions of Third world innovators and entrepreneurs is not based on anything but wishful thinking, if these people had anything to offer the rest of the world in the first place they wouldn't be in their current state. Diverse human populations developed differently and unfortunately for White idealists evolution doesn't stop at the neck, it's been acting upon people's brains as well.

Median IQ
Sudan:72
Ethiopia:63
Afghanistan:83
Pakistan: 81
India: 81
Jay of Melbourne,
what's the IQ of an ALP supporter, just curious. Can Coalition supporters ever achieve the low levels of ALP or is that not possible ? I mean what if they really tried ?
They must be well below that of the migrants if the migrants can outsmart them by the thousands for so long & so openly.

SM.,

The following link will explain things to you:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3886792.html

onthebeach,

I can only assume that
you're simply stirring in trying to attribute all
sorts of opinions to me. I said nothing of the sort
that you're implying. And as far as refugees
are concerned, I stand on my posting record.
Perhaps you should check that before posting in future.

rehctub,

All refugee applications are assessed according
to set criteria by the appropriate agencies.
That is what Australia is obligated to do in being
a signatory to the Refugee Convention. Whether this
will change in the future, I guess we'll have to wait
and see who's elected into government and what decisions
are made in dealing with this complex problem.

All refugee applications are assessed according
to set criteria by the appropriate agencies.
Lexi,
that would be fine if the public servants dealing with this knew what appropriate was & if those agencies had other interests then just obtaining as much funding as possible.
I recall a fairly high ranking officer replying to my asking as to how he thought this issue should be dealt with. His reply, mate all I'm interested in is getting my Super. I know many do not share this mentality but those who do are in these jobs.

" ... if migrants wish to migrate to Australia, they should go via the appropriate channels, which these are not."

Why should they if the 'appropriate channels' either don't exist in some countries, or they know that they would wait years sitting around a refugee camp doing nothing?

What would you do?

Jay

Please provide evidence for the source of the figures you give for average IQ from those countries. Who did the tests, when, what was the sample size etc. Then, evidence of the IQ of the migrants from those countries to Australia, at the time of their arrival. Then evidence of the IQ of descendants of migrants from those countries. Then an analysis of how reliable and comparable any of these statistics are. Then an assessment of the effects of biases in the tests, access to education, effects of racism etc. at the different places and stages. Then, and only then, will I consider this argument.

Keeping in mind that the Afghanis must have some degree of intelligence since they have succesfully driven off or outlasted all invaders including those from the apparently higher IQ western countries, England, Russia and now the US and Australia.

Also keeping in mind that the Indians and Pakistanis are some of the best mathematicians in the world; migrants who have had poor educational access (often because of war etc.) may not demonstrate this, but just give them the opportunity ...

"For White idealists evolution doesn't stop at the neck, it's been acting upon people's brains as well." Of course it has - and everybody's smart - all humans had to be to survive. I'd recommend your average white idealist to read some of Steven Jay Gould's works; he comprehensively demolishes the view that white idealists are smarter than other races.

@Cossomby,

You really have your wires crossed Cossomby!

You ask what if [channels for economic migration don't exist] "in some countries" what do they do (?)

Then you go go straight on to yabbering about <<they know that they would wait years sitting around a refugee camp doing nothing?>>!

They are EITHER refugees OR they are economic migrants!

Economic migrants cannot apply under the refugee convention

And tell me, what nationalities are excluded from our other avenues of migration?

Actually you spoiled my day belatedly finding the answer to your query: <<What's wrong with economic migrants? [sneaking in through our refugee intake]>>

But I am still going to post my response.

What's wrong with economic migrants? [sneaking in through our refugee intake]>>?

What's wrong with me driving my Lamborghini Gallardo (pictured here with me at the drivers seat: http://tinyurl.com/laf6the)
driving down the nearest bicycle track --after-all they are both thoroughfares?

[No snide remarks please Poirot!]

Gentlemen,

There are more votes in the "hard-edged" approach
towards asylum seekers. Look at Foreign
Minister's Bob Carr's appearance on Lateline
on the same evening that Kevin Rudd won the Prime
Ministership from Julia Gillard. Carr's statements
indicated that the Rudd government had decided refugees
are fair game and no doubt the new Immigration Minister
Tony Burke will be required to follow this path set out
so definitely by Carr.

Yet Bob Carr's statements are contradicted by Immigration
Department figures which show at least 90 per cent of
people who come here seeking asylum from persecution are
judged to have legitimate claims. It appears that economic
refugees form a smaller percentage than Mr Carr would
have us believe. But pollies do tend to go where the votes
lie - as we've seen demonstrated thus far in our
recent political culture. Slogans that sound good beats
policies every time as do polls in the mediascape.

@Lexi,

<<Bob Carr's statements are contradicted by Immigration Department figures which show at least 90 per cent of people who come here [inaccurate/misleading description removed] from [inaccurate/misleading description removed]are [rubber stamped( more accurate term inserted)] to have legitimate claims.

It all depends on how low you set the bar. I am sure that if a Lexi administration was in office 110% would be found legitimate!

SPQR,

The following links may help:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/overwhelming-majority-of-boat-arrivals-deemed-to-be-refugees-20130519-2juty.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/rudd-government-asylum-seeker-policy

just a little side-tracking for a moment. Kevin 13 has just appointed the first Muslim to his cabinet. That's all good by me but when the Governor general waffled on about what a great step that is for multiculturalism I realised that those in Government are just simply pointless mutts who have no idea as to where they're taking this country. Muslims are renowned for being THE most least likely to accept any other culture or religion. So, why does this silly woman say this is great step for multiculturalism & democracy? Beats me !

<<SPQR...The following links may help>>

Nah! sorry Lexi, just the usual old waffle.

However, the following link may help you:

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/learning/study_skills/skills/critical_thinking.htm

comprehensively demolishes the view that white idealists are smarter than other races.
Cossomby,
I think all races are born with pretty much equal intelligence. People change in accordance of their environment as the develop. Some societies have reached their apex & are now on the downhill run. Others have finished & still others are on the rise again.
As soon as a society has it literally too good it starts to fragment. We see that happening now to the wester type societies. In Australia it is especially evident by the way so many of the as yet on-the-climb societies are invited to infiltrate this country at the cost of the few Australians who still have sense but are outnumbered by the senseless.
The so-called refugees aren't refugees & the genuine refugees are persecuted by australian immigration. Those who require help are denied help & those who don't need help get huge resources thrown at them. It really doesn't paint a smart picture of the 50% of Australians who support the ALP does it ?

Yes, the first were convicts, all the rest economic migrants.

Surely the convicts were economic migrants Its just that someone else made the decision for them. It saved the British a heap of money on locking them up in the UK and provided cheap labour for the colonists. On the other hand I don see a case to call the Aboriginals economic migrants.

It seems that few people on this thread seem to realise that people try to come to Australia by boat, because they can not get valid passports from their own countries which in turn suggests that maybe they are genuine refugees

Lexi - What part of only around 10% of refugees are checked properly?

Corrected
Lexi - What part of only around 10% of refugees are checked properly don't you understand?

"What's wrong with me driving my Lamborghini Gallardo (pictured here with me at the drivers seat: http://tinyurl.com/laf6the)
driving down the nearest bicycle track --after-all they are both thoroughfares?"

Well,SPQR, if you have a Lamborghini you don't really need to drive down the bicycle track do you? Similarly, if you are a rich businessman from Hong Kong or a great cricketer from India, you wouldn't have to claim asylum or get on a boat. We'll take you instantly and even change the law just for you.

But if you are a poor ALP voter persecuted by the Liberals (or vice versa), I'll support you every inch of the way on your people smuggler boat trip for a better life in New Zealand.

I would not believe a word Bob Carr ever uttered. He actually sees himself as a statesman.

CrisGaff1000 seems carr is not alone in that view.
He was the last NSW leader to have the public on his side.
Maybe the answer to world economic migration, in numbers we do not want.
Using methods we too do not want.
Can come from country,s asking for the United Nations to exclude them from its refugee charter.
If not country,s even more pressed by such people could leave the UN.
We may well be victims of a United Nations experiment.
One trying to meld us in to[a long term plan] one people.

.... I guess we'll have to wait
and see who's elected into government and what decisions
are made in dealing with this complex problem.

Yes Lexi, isn't it a pitty your beloved labor, or more so, Rudd himself, actually created this complex problem.

To think he even deserves a chance to fix it defies logic. He should never be forgiven for the mess he has created, not to mention the hindreds of lives lost as a result.

Hi Cossomby,

Like a lot of those on your side of the debate you appear to have something of a Robin Hood complex.

<<But if you are a poor ALP voter persecuted by the Liberals... I'll support you every inch of the way on your people smuggler boat trip for a better life in New Zealand>>

The reality is that is aiding and abetting the people smugglers and their clientele you are supporting big, corrupt business.
The asylum scammers (particularly those from the Middle East & Iran ) JET in to Jakarta airport , get VIP treatment from corrupt police and officialdom (see here: "And then the police headquarters, the police HQ will escort the boat," http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-25/footage-shows-indonesian-people-smuggler-discussing-his-business/4777288). Then for appearances sake boat to OZ, or more often than not, call on their mobile phones for the Australian navy to pick them up off the Indonesian coast.

The people smugglers cleitele are not the poor blighters you imagine them to be, they are well networked and well briefed--with money and information being channeled to them from confederates already in the West.

You highlighted some abuses of our immigration : << a great cricketer from India [he actually claims be to be from Pakistan]>>

This should tell how the assessment process is open to manipulation.

And this has already been outed/criticized by those on our side of the debate --see Phillips great post above:
"The public servant a year or so ago who said they were told to pass some" http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/images/icon_link_grey.gif

It is reason to tighten up the system not to say ":well if the cricket cronies can bend the rules. Then I'm going to do it to from my economic migrant mates from south Asia"

Indi, another example of how you establish "truths" based purely on your irrational perceptions.
You say; "I SEE public servants waste huge dollars on a daily basis yet you try to contradict my experience. Let this sink into you & then try to digest. 85% of the public service IS OF NO USE TO ANYONE except themselves."
I'm not contradicting your experience, I'm questioning you irrational thought process. According to the ABS there are about 1,800,000 public servants employed Australia wide, of this number how many's work performance have you actually observed? I claim your figure of 85% is nothing more than a figment of your imagination.Unless you can substantiate this figure of 85% then I offer it as evidence that you do indeed use your 'minds eye' to create false "truths", prime example 85%. Its not unusual for irrational thinking people to pluck figures like 85% or 99$ out of the air and then offer them as fact. Then you go on to blame a section of the community for you irrational creation, "The people to blame for this are those who vote ALP."
Indi, if you are able to substantiate your figure of 85% with real evidence then I will apologise to you unreservedly, and I to will then blame those ALP voters for the mass of useless public servants.

Hi Cossomby (continued),

<<But if you are a poor ALP voter persecuted by the Liberals... I'll support you every inch of the way on your people smuggler boat trip for a better life in New Zealand.>>

Why New Zealand?
Why Australia?

Come-on you challenged people to play devils advocate <<I have a challenge for posters: how about playing devil's advocate occasionally?>>

why does it have to be a affluent Western country ?

I'd be with you if it was South Georgia Island

According to the ABS
Paul1405,
Don't forget to add the tens of thousands whom the public servants consult to do many of their jobs for them by using our money. *5% is not that far of the mark when you start making equities. Of course there's no Department which will tell how many of it's public servants are simply on the payroll. You have to do what I & many others do & that is to observe the letting out of contracts, observe the bureaucracy of all departments, speak to public servants who have a gut full of how taxpayers money is wasted. Go & speak to school leavers, go & speak with nursing staff, the list is as long as the public service. You'll find that 15% of public servants are so dismayed about the others that they will tell the goings on at our expense. Official figures & statements will never be accurate when there is so much wrong-doing to hide. Get out of your comfort zone & start asking questions you'll find yourself agreeing with my remarks sooner than you'd expect.

Belly,
I have always had the view that most of Australia's internal and external social problems stem from the UN charter system which uses the lure of potential employment of dumped MP's as a vehicle to "Have its way" with us.

"5% is not that far of the mark when you start making equities."
Why 5% and why are you making equities as being impartial when you are bias in the extreme. Again other than being a figment of you imagination based on your own narrow experience, and when considering the number of public servants spread all over the land your experience can be no more than narrow, so where did the figure of 85% come from. Not content with the fabrication of one figure you produce anther one of your "statistics" in the form of; "You'll find that 15% of public servants are so dismayed about the others" being the other 85%. I respect your right to hold an opinion that "(some) public (servants) (ARE) OF NO USE TO ANYONE except themselves". Like any large organisation and the public service would be no acceptation, there would be some who are lazy and incompetent but what percentage no one can say. It is most unfair of you to brand 1,500,000, the 85%, of Australian workers in this way without the slightest evidence.

Poirot, Paul 1405, Lexi, Suzieonline, csteel, cossomby, misanthrope, warmair, You potential terrorist supporters are missing the whole point. Yes, I finally made it. Australians don't want Muslims or Economic welfare chaser from Sri Lanka or anywhere else here.

Here is a some question, if the EU is anything to go by. What would you do if I gave your child a bottle of Arsenic, A detonator or a sixpenny Bunger to play with? Would you remove these items from your children's presence & if so, Why?

of course you would!

God! haven't we, on OLO, given you enough proof, time after time, that these people are a danger to Australia. They are not wanted here!

Philip S.,

Nice try.

They're all checked - and only ten percent
are found to be economic refugees.
But then you know that.

SPQR,

I'm pleased that you've found a link that you can use.
You need it - because thinking appears not to be
your strong suit.
Well done.

jayb,

Apply pressure on your federal MP to have
Australia tear up the Refugee Convention.
You would achieve much more that way then
insulting people who disagree with
your take on things on this forum.

jayb, In your ideal Australia you could set up "Fortress Australia" and exclude all those you perceive as undesirable, you may have to resort to the "gunboat" to keep them at bay, sink a few as a lesson to other would be intruders. All well and good as far as you are concerned. What do you do with the undesirables already here, the concentration camp I hear you say. We will need a new secret organisation to deal with potential subversives and other disloyal citizens etc etc.
The majority of Germans supported Hitlers actions against the Jews in the 1930's, so what is your point about the majority.

@Lexi,

<< tear up the Refugee Convention...>>

Well that would be one way --but it might be too macho for some ---after-all,how would all those pollies who spent years cow-towering and selling-us-out to the UN (in a hope for a reward in the hereafter) be recompensed?


A better more New Age way might be to provide the refugee advocates and sympathizers (who aid and abet the illegals) with something more productive to fill their empty hours with -- bang, at one swell swoop there goes your pull factor!

Misanthrope,

What a ridiculous post!
How many refugees do you think would be happy to be set down in the desert, and be told "make it flourish"? The reason no people currently live in those vast stretches is firstly - there is no water, and secondly, they come here to live in our cities where the living is easy, and they have access to all the conveniences. It's difficult to even get doctors, nurses and teachers to go to country communities, and at least those small towns have some reasonable facilities to offer them. Our latest batch of migrants would turn even going to our remote country areas down flat don't you think? Our first settlers chose the coastal areas for good reason - water!

If so many of our farmers are walking away from their land after so many generations trying to make a living from it, just what makes you think these people would want or be able to do differently? Time to come back down to our climate changing earth mate!

Does anyone remember the aboriginal couple who were brought in from the desert in W.A.? Even they couldn't survive there any longer [with centuries of the knowledge of survival skills they could draw on] and were starving. Their children had already left and relocated to the coast to be able to survive, but went back to bring their parents out.

Don't bother to debate, Jayb, Lexi and Paul.

Anyone whose only argument is to label his opponents "potential terrorists" is obviously as vacuous and devoid of substance as they come.

Individual,

You're so right about society fragmenting in the EU. I have to wonder if our world population crisis is a factor to be considered in this mass migration?
The Muslim societies are rather different than the Western ones. It is apparent that religion and tribal clans factor violently into many of their internecine conflicts, and unfortunately the western powers have interfered too much, which in turn will hasten their own decline - which includes us.
If every illegal was automatically returned to their country of origin and western countries guaranteed they would fund education and practical skills for them on their return to their homeland, one has to wonder if maybe this would be a better answer, save us supporting them on welfare for life, and stop the flood of boats?
This would then enable western countries to properly assess genuine refugees applications.
Foreign aid to drought stricken areas should include [as the Romans did successfully in the Sahara] drilling wells for water as a priority. Tribal conflict should be the last on the list. Let these people sort out their own problems in their own way, as they have done in the past before the west decided to meddle. Instead of giving practical help to these people, we are sustaining their conflict, and it is now infiltrating our own countries. Not very smart either are we?

I notice none of the potential Terrorists answered the questions.

Why do you want to give the Australian people Arsenic, detonators & big sixpenny double bungers? Is it because you support their Muslim ideals in the guise of Multi-culturism. Yes?

I have shown you before Multi-culturism hasn't worked in Europe in intergrating Muslims into the community. Just the opposite. "Remember Iftikhar." Are you ignoring that conversation?

Worldwatcher: Does anyone remember the aboriginal couple who were brought in from the desert in W.A.?

Yess I do. They were found & reported then the Government Agencies stepped in & brought them in. They went back for their parents, yes, & never came back because they couldn't take modern life.

I had a mate, in the Army, Billy Coollabbra who was the same when he first joined the Army. He couldn't eat white man food or wear boots so they let him out for a year to acclimatize. Then he got back in. He was one Platoon ahead of me at Kapooka in 64. He came back from Vietnam & went AWOL (walkabout). They found him living with a wild tribe & he came back, did his last 6 months. Got out & went back to Palm Island where he lived the rest of his life. He became a preacher & mentor for the people on Palm Island. A Legend in the Army & a gentleman.

Lexi: tear up the Refugee Convention.

What a great idea, wait a minute, I’ve already done that.

Lexi: I'm pleased that you've found a link that you can use. You need it - because thinking appears not to be
your strong suit. Well done.

Not nice Lexi. Tut, Tut.

In truth gaff not too many ex politicians end up in the UN.
But call it racism any thing you like.
But the truth is more Australians than ever before are questioning our immigration policy,s.
It[ once again may be unpleasant]But the root of our discontent with boat people can be found there too.
Muslim enclavism, and it separatism bought on by its very different Religious beliefs.
And the subsequent conflict it brings has hardened our view.
Too the simple maths of the problem, 20.000 more maybe, would come if we lowered our barriers.
So what some would say.
Others will point at the success of postwar migration.
That is a blind, current multi cultureism is nothing like post war migration,we never had to change our ways for that.
Yes if not now a complete re look at why we let the UN tell us any thing will come.

World watcher: If every illegal was automatically returned to their country of origin and western countries guaranteed they would fund education and practical skills for them on their return to their homeland,

Nice thought, but it wouldn't work because Islam shuns Western Education, especially for girls.

Worldwatcher: and stop the flood of boats?

It won't because Islam is on a mission to convert the World by stealth & terror & these potential Terrorist know & support it. Sorry for including you in the list before. What we need is more Achmeds.

Jayb,

It appears from your posts that you see things
in very rigid and stereotyped terms.
I guess you're a product of your family environment
and education - therefore you're psychologically
more prone to placing the blame for society's
troubles on some relatively powerless individuals
or groups. It makes sense as scapegoating typically
occurs when members of one group feel threatened
but are unable to retaliate against the real source
of the threat. Instead they vent their frustrations
on some weak and despised group.

Never mind, things may look up for you after the next
election. Won't be long now. Just be patient.

Lexi: It appears from your posts that you see things in very rigid and stereotyped terms.

Actually, I'm very amenable except when I am right.

Lexi: I guess you're a product of your family environment and education

A good Catholic Education & Family. (Irish Catholic mother.)

Lexi: therefore you're psychologically more prone to placing the blame for society's troubles on some relatively powerless individuals etc.

Actually always I sift through "facts" & weigh up the pro's & con's very carefully before I make a judgement. I take into account my own experience & what I know to be true fact. I research carefully other information & where that information came from & the set biases associated with that information. Feel Good, Sooky La La doesn't enter into the equation. Yes, I do tend to be somewhat Spockish in my outlook. A product of finding out the truth to late too many times, unfortunately.

I bring this to your attention once again what they have in store for Australia. "Remember Iftikhar." Are you ignoring that conversation too?

That's my 4 in 24 hours. Bye 'til then.

We have all heard how the Polynesians moved westward from island to island, until they found the land of the long white cloud, New Zealand. They settled & became the Maori.

Now we have the Muslims moving eastward from country to country, until they found the land of the long white hand out, Australia. They are coming in their tens of thousands, to settle & take over.

I wonder what they will do, when like the socialists, they have run out of other peoples money to spend.

Has been: We have all heard how the Polynesians moved westward from island to island, until they found the land of the long white cloud, New Zealand. They settled & became the Maori.

Well sort-off. DNA grouping shows that those that landed in New Zealand & became the Maoris’ were a mix of Men from around the Solomon/New Guinea & Women from around Taiwan. The People you are talking about were the Maori Ori. The people the Maoris’ ate out.

That's what the Muslims have planned for Australians if they don't convert. Go Achmed.

We used to take refugees based on humanitarian need. Now we take only economic refugees based on who can pay to fly to Indonesia and pay the human traffickers for a voyage, and to fabricate sob stories that can't be checked for lack of documents.

'5%
Paul1405,
Obviously a typo, 85 %.

At least the Maori ate what they killed which is more than the Muslim intends to do.

Jayb,

Lexi is of Lithuanian heritage and she has in the past liked to spout it. Don't blame her attitude on Catholicism. Catholics are diverse. She is more naive and indoctrinated with the Chattering Class superior complex epidemic.

I don't know how the Lexis can still deny that the majority of asylum seekers are economic. Why would the government finally say so (it's been going on for years)? With all their public resources and they don't think the government would consult the Immigration Department and it's minister and actually look at cases. How dum can you get. The government would never say this if it wasn't true.

I know for a fact that they are lured here for all the free social benefits. I know people in the department and it depresses them. Many applicants still get in through the benefit of the doubt. There are indeed many lies told and encouraged by those with a vested interest which we all pay for in our taxes.

Constance: Lexi is of Lithuanian heritage and she has in the past liked to spout it.

Well that explains that. I've had a few Lithuanian mates. They were all mad, in a good way. Don't go out drinking with them, you won't see daylight for a week. :-)

I had a litho girlfriend once... Lexi .... is that you? She was crazy too. She liked to drink, fight 'n .... Her relatives had THAT chat with me. I was like a rat up a drainpipe. But, I was younger then. Haaaaa memories.

Don't mind Constance, Folks...it's obviously time for her latest "Lexi bash".

I challenge you all to have a peek at her posting history for the last six months - and tot up the amount of posts she uses to impugn Lexi.

Noting she was back again today, I wondered how long she'd be able to resist.

(Weird!)

To everyone who has posted their comments on this thread, I would like to say that despite your differences you represent a cross section of our society as a whole. You also have in total many years of experience and knowledge. Why then, instead of a vitriolic display of political preferences, and denigration of each other's posts and personalities, can't you put forward some apolitical and constructive ideas on what is so obviously a very large issue for all of us?

Some positive ideas would be a welcome change from slanging off at each other. Or are we doomed to emulate our leaders and opposition? Make lots of noise, call each other names, but in the summing up -achieve nothing.

True debate appears to have become secondary. Life for all of us is not a game,and all important issues deserve a serious approach which will satisfy at least a majority, while acknowledging there will always be a minority who think differently. It's called democracy.

So far it would appear to have become a verbal battle and an attempt at point scoring which could go on ad infinitum. Surely we can do better than that - put aside our differences and examine the subject dispassionately? Who knows, maybe we could come up with new ideas if we'd just co-operate with each other? As our leaders appear so unable
to do this for us, maybe we can offer them our suggestions. I've been told that 1 letter to an M.P. is taken as representing 100 people. Have never been able to ascertain if that's true, but heck, it's worth a try isn't it?

A couple of real examples...

On "Adam Hill Tonight", Les Murray (soccer commentator) described how his family paid people smugglers to escape Hungary in 1956: 'I'm grateful to them'. He noted that businessman Frank Lowy was a similar refugee.

'The Australian' today: A 23yr old man who arrived on a boat, now on a bridging visa in Australia with no working rights. A Kurd, his family fled from persecution in Iraq to Iran. He was born in Iran but is a stateless person - as a non-citizen there, he had no rights and worked illegally. He cannot be deported - Iran will not accept him. He seems to be both a refugee (since Kurds seem to be persecuted everywhere) and an economic migrant. Yes, presumably he could have stopped in Indonesia etc. but he had no future there either. Why should we regard him as a terrorist? Why not as an future Les Murray and Frank Lowy?

SPQR: Actually the boat for refugees from Australia to NZ was a <<joke>>!! But see John Marsden's "Tomorrow when the war began" for a similar scenario.

Seriously though, "why does it have to be a affluent Western country". Because whether you are a refugee or an economic migrant, why would you aim for anything less that an affluent country where there were great opportunities? Why not Australia which has built itself on migration? It's the intelligent choice and one worth taking risks for.

"Like a lot of those on your side of the debate you appear to have something of a Robin Hood complex." I see myself as an extremely pragmatic almost libertarian on this subject - we should welcome anyone who is smart and cunning enough to get to Australia by their own actions (including paying people smugglers) because they will be smart and cunning enough to succeed here (as long as we don't lock them up in limbo for years). Do we really want people who sit passively for years in a refugee camp and meekly obey all the bureaucratic rules? I think the people who say "oh but they broke the rules! oh but they jumped the queue" are wishy-washy. What about the great Australian larrikin spirit of flouting authority and bureaucracy? Isn't Ned Kelly's our great icon?

A subject that now and forever divides us.
Any side can make a case why the other is wrong.
Sometimes however that case is constructed of straw.
Would it be true to say most , well enough to change governments, want it stopped.
Can we ask, those of us concerned about the impacts of boat people make the claim.
The claim that if we make it easier the numbers coming will increase.
In the end are the people of other persuasions than Liberal, prepared to see Liberals win election after election on this issue?
Without Rudd,s visit and its coming changes that is assured.

Jayb you received "A good Catholic Education" did you?, Was that at the hands of the "Christian Brothers"? Were you an "Altar Boy"? Did "Father" fill you with bread and wine and then take you to the presbytery to absolve you of your "mortal sins".
From your posts I'm sure you must have "experienced" all the "joys" that the catholic clergy could bestow upon a good little altar boy such as yourself.

worldwatcher,
I have the feeling that those who try their darnest to promote the flooding of Australia by that religious outfit are in fact members of that outfit posing as Australians. They are nothing short of being traitors.
The whole scenario has absolutely nothing to do with refugees or economic refugees, it
s to do the same to Australia as has been done to the rest of the world. Australia just happens to be the last frontier for them. To their utter delight Australians are too silly to see any further forward than their next investment return by end of day. But then again the stupid have always been fair game for exploitation throughout history.

worldwatcher,
Do you really think the likes of Frank Lowy and his ilk are "good people"

Cossomby,

<<Because whether you are a refugee or an economic migrant, why would you aim for anything less that an affluent country>>
You are still missing the point.The Refugee Convention was set up to provide a safe haven --not a retirement haven for ones old age.
It does not entitled one to by-pass other safe havens simply 'cause you don't like their welfare system.

<< A Kurd, his family fled from persecution in Iraq to Iran. He was born in Iran but is a stateless person - as a non-citizen there>>
Bullsh!t! Northern Iraq is controlled by Kurds --it is for all intents and purposes a self-governing Kurdish state.

<<we should welcome anyone who is smart and cunning enough to get to Australia by their own actions (including paying people smugglers) because they will be smart and cunning enough to succeed here (as long as we don't lock them up in limbo for years)>>

Whoopee-do! so if I rob Fort Knoks, hightail it to the nearest airport, shoot-up the joint and hijack a plane to OZ, Prime Minister Cossomby would be there to welcome me on arrival at Mascot with a red-carpet and brass band [I'd have to be really smart and cunning to have pulled that off!]

And why stop at asylum scammers --as the popular saying goes, you are only tapping half the talent pool-- if you want real *smart* and *cunning* how about the drug smugglers?

I can see it now, a huge new statue of liberty (in the shape Cossomby) standing at the heads with a torch welcoming all and sundry --and I already have the poem to go with it:

"Give me your cunning , your crooks,your con-men
Your gangbangers and your drug peddlers
The car-bombers of a 1000 market-place deaths
Your rapists and molesters, the more violations the better
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Think of all that talent going to waste in the jails of the world!

And I'm sure we'll be a smarter nation for it -maybe!

Belly,

My concern with Rudd is that it may be only an election ploy.
He is a smart and polished performer. He knows what the electorate want on this issue --but is he really committed to it?

SPQR: If you robbed Fort Knox, and high-jacked a plane you would be doing it as a citizen of an affluent western country, and you certainly wouldn't be a stateless person trying to get to Australia to better yourself by working hard. So that's an invalid comparison. Ditto your rave about drug-dealers and conmen.

On the other hand, Australia was established by a bunch of crooks including some of my ancestors. What is quite remarkable is how law-abiding the next and subsequent generations were, resulting in the current do-gooders who whinge about people not sitting in queues and obeying bureaucratic rules.

Our own history demonstrates that when you give 'criminals' an opportunity to live normal successful lives, they and their descendants will grab the chance.

PS there's a more than could be said re robbing Fort Knox - eg why the US has such a high crime/imprisonment rate - extremes of poverty, class and race.

PS2 I probably should have adjectives such as dogged, resolute, gritty or determined rather than cunning

worldwatcher: Why then, instead of a vitriolic display of political preferences, and denigration of each other's posts and personalities, can't you put forward some apolitical and constructive ideas on what is so obviously a very large issue for all of us?

My God I have tried to get that going so many times. The likes of the Potential Terrorists are not interested in finding a solution to anything except bringing as many Terrorists into the country as they can get.

Cossomby: Les Murray and Frank Lowy.

People Smugglers got them out of their Country, not into Australia. They came here with due Legal Process. A misrepresentation of facts, I think, Cossomby. Typical.

Paul1405: I'm sure you must have "experienced" all the "joys" that the catholic clergy could bestow upon a good little altar boy such as yourself.

Yes, I did have a good Catholic education, Marist Brothers. I never received any of the "joys." from the Priests or Brothers. I did from a boy who did though. :-) Not.

SPQR: "Give me your cunning, your crooks, your con-men, etc.

Good one. I like it.

Cossomby: Australia was established by a bunch of crooks including some of my ancestors. What is quite remarkable is how law-abiding the next and subsequent generations were.

True to a point, but they were Christian, not Muslims. Even if they impose Sha'riah Law on Australia, they'll still be trying to kill one another as well as us. The infighting is why they are leaving their own Countries. Then they start it here, as in the Serbian/Bosnian riots a few years ago & now the Sectarian fighting in Sydney & Melbourne now. Do we have to put up with this crap? I don’t think so.

SPQR: My concern with Rudd is that it may be only an election ploy.
--but is he really committed to it?

Yes. A question I have asked myself.

Jayb,

"....The likes of the Potential Terrorists..."

You're a no-talent debater who has to resort to your own hackneyed constructions to make a point.

If you had any real substance, you wouldn't have to resort to making up puerile "namies" to give a little ooomf to your posts.

Pathetic......

Poirot: If you had any real substance, you wouldn't have to resort to making up puerile "namies" to give a little ooomf to your posts.

I have tried to debate you with facts, dear Poirot, many times, but you deflect any reasonable facts put to you with abuse off the subject. You do defend Terrorist & Potential Terrorists all the time as if they were right to do what they do. Why is that.

Are you a Terrorist or Eventual Terrorist in Australia too?
Which side are you taking in the Shia/Sunni War starting in Australia as we speak?
When will you be throwing your 6 Pen'ith double bunger in too?
Will I get an answer that's not a deflection?

So many questions, so little time.

Jayb,

"Are you a Terrorist or Eventual Terrorist in Australia too?"

What a silly little person you are.

: )

"Cossomby: Australia was established by a bunch of crooks including some of my ancestors. What is quite remarkable is how law-abiding the next and subsequent generations were.

True to a point, but they were Christian, not Muslims."

Christians have done a lot of infighting, over hundreds of years, quite recently in Ireland. Of course, as in Muslim countries, it 's never been just about religion, but class and politics and which religious group had the power. The catholic-protestant infighting carried over into Australia. (Maybe it's moderated because Christians of both types how have Muslims to fear and oppose).

I'm not condoning this, on the part of Christians or Muslims, the point is that this is just human behaviour and to claim that Christians are somehow better than Muslims is invalid. (Please don't quote the negative bits of the Koran; they can be matched in the Bible)

Dear Jayb,

Yes I am of Lithuanian ancestry - and proud of it.
Although I've got to also say that my grandmother
(on my mother's side) -
was White Russian (St. Petersburg). That's where I get
my killer cheek-bones, long legs, greenish-hazel-almond-shaped
eyes, and mane of red hair from.

As for Catholicism? -
I was raised as a Catholic - although Mum was Russian
Orthodox (Eastern Christian Rites). So I'm a bit of a
mixture.

Did we date? I doubt it - I was born in this country
and as a young girl, I was shy. I wasn't comfortable
with my own ideas, never believing they were worthy
of being heard.

Dear Constance,

Flattering as I find all the attention you keep giving
me - I really don't deserve it. But if it makes you
feel superior - then go for it!

Dear Poirot,

You Go Girl!

Now back to the topic: -

I came across this link that puts things into perspective:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2012/politics/australias-problem-with-racism/

Cossomby,

<< If you robbed Fort Knox, etc ….you certainly wouldn't be a stateless person trying to get to Australia to better yourself by working hard>>

And if you were a middle class Iranian or Pakistani you wouldn’t be stateless impoverished urchin either.That is exactly Bob Carr's point!
Captain Emad (one of the few who were exposed) had a string of shops in Kuala Lumpur and a thriving import business (he imported people!)

<< Australia was established by a bunch of crooks … quite remarkable is how law-abiding the next and subsequent generations were>>

Yes but they didn’t have special schools or special satellite TV & radio services daily extolling the virtues of being a crook,keeping the tradition alive. And explaining how glorious it was to belong to the creed of crookedness and how every bad thing that happened in history was someone-else's fault.

One wonders if your ancestors would have left their old ways behind if they had special crook school (ala our some religious schools), special crook broadcasting services (ala SBS) and special multi-crookness festivals --not to mention tough laws outlawing discrimination against crooks!

<<Our own history demonstrates that when you give 'criminals' an opportunity to live normal successful lives, they and their descendants will grab the chance.>>

Good! you passed the primary school test.

You can now go onto the higher grades, where we will be study the history of Lebanon, Kosovo and Egypt –tell me at the end of term what lesson you’ve learned from them!

Cossomby's treatment continued

So let's review what we’ve covered to date:
1) The Refugee Convention is a way for economic migrants to enter OZ – Debunked!
2) “What’s wrong with economic migrants anyway?" (really just another way of phrasing argument 1) –Debunked!
3) The Refugee Convention is just another way to redistribute the worlds wealth –Debunked!
3) Why should economic migrants have to wait years in refugee camps...--crossed wires –doesn’t deserve response!
4) Kurds are stateless persons –Debunked!
5) X is a good person . X was a refugee , therefore we should throw open the doors to anyone who claims to be a refugee – too idiotic to deserve a response.

But I think we might have uncovered your real motives here:
<<there's a more than could be said re robbing Fort Knox - eg why the US has such a high crime/imprisonment rate - extremes of poverty, class and race>>

Isn’t funny how every time you scratch the vanish off a asylum scammer sympathizer and get down to the heartwood (riddled with dry-rot and worms) you find a deep disdain for the West, esp. the US!

Poirot: What a silly little person you are.

So by deflecting the Questions you are possibly admitting that you do approve of Terrorist activities in Australia & that you may join in at some time. Is that right?

Cossomby: Please don't quote the negative bits of the Koran; they can be matched in the Bible.

Would you like me to post a copy of all the negative bits in the Bible? Mind you it would take up about 6 pages. That's why I'm an Atheist.

Cossomby: The catholic-protestant infighting carried over into Australia.

Yes but they don't throw bombs of shoot up peoples front doors or shoot people in the street in front of their homes. Do they? It's mainly confined to the old people & School funding Politics in the paper. Isn't it? Something the Shia/Sunni/Bikie Drug gangs divide is prone to do, eh! bro.

Cossomby: The point is that this is just human behaviour and to claim that Christians are somehow better than Muslims is invalid.

The West has come a long way since the Crusades. Unfortunately the Middle East has gone from being an advanced civilization back to the stone age. I know that there are those that blame the Colonists, but these countries had already degenerated. About the 16th. Century the Mullahs took hold of the Caliphs in the Middle East & destroyed (forbade) science & advancement. There are those Christians (Baptists mainly) that would do the same in the West. History is a great thing. You could learn a lot from it, if you wanted to. Would you like to go back to the days where you could grab the nearest sheila by the short & curly's into the nearest cave if she was alone? Then have her killed because she caused you to Zin.

Some on here are advocating that we go back to those days. Aren't they? You know who you are.

I’m sure we, in Australia, don’t wish to join them in the stone age, do we? Well some people do, unfortunately.

@Lexi,

<< That's where I get my killer cheek-bones, long legs, greenish-hazel-almond-shaped eyes, and mane of red hair from>>

It sounds like a description of Mr Ed!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU

Now, let me guess, Poirot is really Wilbur?

Noooow it's all fitting together!

Lexi,

Interesting article on the Coalition's "phantom policy" to turn back the boats...and Howard's thundering babble from the sidelines (he's got form on this issue)...someone should tell Bishop.

http://m.theage.com.au/comment/tough-talk-rocks-the-boat-with-indonesia-20130702-2p9vn.html

Dear KarlX,

Obviously you're a man possessing -
all the charm and wit of 3 men -
Larry, Curly, and Moe.

There's a few of you on OLO.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the link.

Fiction into fact - seems to be the go with the
Coalition. We know that they prefer slogans that
sound good to policies that work. Nothing much
has changed.

Karlx: It sounds like a description of Mr Ed!

Uncalled for, nasty!

Your description is almost the same except she had long blond hair done in a braid & wrapped around her head. She had a long white neck & very beautiful. She was some sort of Russian Princess I was told.

Lexi: I was shy. I wasn't comfortable with my own ideas, never believing they were worthy of being heard.

Well you're certainly making up for it now. You go girl. I had lot's of ideas but no one ever listened. Much like now. In those days children were seen & not heard. Remember.

SPQR wrote: "Isn’t funny how every time you scratch the vanish off a asylum scammer sympathizer and get down to the heartwood (riddled with dry-rot and worms) you find a deep disdain for the West, esp. the US!"

My comment that the US has a high crime rate /prison population is fact and it is probable that this is related to social inequities. This does not mean I have 'deep disdain' for the West. I just have balanced view: all human and human societies are mixed, including Western societies. Identifying and analysing problems in your own society as well as others is a first step towards finding solutions.

None of my posts contain the personal abuse like that I've been receiving, and which I've commented on before. (I apologise for the implications of the words wishy-washy and do-gooders). I would take different opinions much more seriously if they weren't wrapped up in rudeness and sarcasm. Basically, when you resort to such tactics you undermine your argument.

Cossomby,

You're a class act.

It's rather refreshing on a thread like this.

: )

The new Immigration Minister Tony Burke and PM Rudd have both said that the previous policies of the Labor/greens government were wrong.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1785366/Labor%27s-past-stance-on-offshore-processing-was-wrong:-Burke

Foreign Minister Carr and the PM have commented on economic migrants, in fact illegal migrants, who abuse the system and deny refugees a fair go. Economic migrants have shoved refugees out of the queue. Down to the criminal act of putting children on boats to win family reunification later.

Aren't the priorities to put refugees first and destroy the business model of the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling?

The odd man out is Sarah Hyphen-Young of the feckless Greens Protest Party, who are putting politics ahead of helping refugees and preventing deaths at sea. That is no surprise because the Greens have frustrated Labor all the way along.

When will the Greens be held accountable?

Cossomby,

It is a little hard to take you seriously. From your very first post on this thread you had already formed the view that only one side in this debate could sin:
<<I have pretty much given up on The Forum because of the unpleasant language - it's one thing to have different opinions, quite another to insult and belittle those who disagree with you. My advice to Suzie,Lexi, Paul etc. - just stop posting and leave>>

The implication in these lines is very clearly that Suzie,Lexi [&] Paul had never used insults or and belittlement --either you hadn't read their previous posts (on this and other threads), or you read them with only one eye open.

<<I would take different opinions much more seriously if they weren't wrapped up in rudeness and sarcasm>>
Well, I have long since moved on from the naive belief that anything I might write on this forum will change any of my opponents views.
And, when someone is told that the Refugee Convention is NOT an avenue for economic migration and then tries to twist-things-six-ways-to-Sunday to make it so <<What's wrong with economic migrants?...The ones who sit around patiently in a refugee camp for decades>>
Even the most saintly among us tends to lose patience.

And as for this statement:
<<there's a more than could be said re robbing Fort Knox - eg why the US has such a high crime/imprisonment rate - extremes of poverty, class and race>>
Did I misread your meaning/intent? It's possible.I am so used to seeing similar as a lead in to the standard diatribe about white racism and white privilege --and all the other evils that only whites can exhibit that I assumed it was another.

Only time will tell. If you stick around to post -- in an unguarded moment, among like posters-- my early call might still be shown to be correct.

Cheers

sounds like Cossomby is having a hissy fit.

Last two posts - just prove my point.

Cossomby,

Talking of belittling people and the like --one lucky dip --it only took one --- into your history and look what I found:

<< Jay, perhaps I was being too ironic for you...I'm not following this nonsense any more, I'm a feminist so I have to go out and bash a few men today (I had better spell it out - that's irony again).>>

And there was even this ( which goes some way towards validating my reading of your US comment!

<<When I saw George Bush standing on the aircraft carrier saying we won (or whatever) I saw the same old big power male politics going back to the Romans.>>
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5061#136157

well, well, well --I rest my case.

Dear Cossomby,

Having a sense of humour helps.
As does persistence and determination.
As well as the sane posters that are
still with us.
Take pride in your intelligence and
continue posting please. It is a
perfect antidote to the usual dogfights
that a public forum such as this attracts.

Dear SPQR,

If you don't like our opinion of you,
you can always improve.

Lexi,

<<Dear SPQR...If you don't like our opinion of you,you can always improve>>

I will live with your unfavorable opinion.If you ever developed an favorable opinion towards me, then I would really start to worry.

Lexi on Cossomby: Take pride in your intelligence

Yes Cossomby an IQ of 80 is good,for you.

Lexi: If you don't like our opinion of you, you can always improve.

Your opinion of people is not a problem. Your defence of Potential Terrorists is, though.

I do find it strange that, as your family came from a suppressed Communist country, that you would show support for a group of people that are striving to & will suppress the very freedoms you now hold dear when they implement Sharia Law. Your friends will forced you to go back to being that shy little girl, or get buried & stoned.

Dear SPQR,

Glad that you took me seriously.

Imagine what would have happened if you
would have thought that I was being facetious.

Dear jayb,

Are you for real?

Perhaps the following link may help clarify
things for you:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2012/politics/australias-problem-with-racism/

Interesting link Lexi. I find though that Denise Allan dredges up what happened 200 years ago. What happened then was quite normal behaviour. That behaviour, although modified somewhat for the better, continued up until the 1950's. Racism has been in the decline ever since then. There is some way to go in places admittedly. The term Racism is somewhat over used though. The term being invoked even when it's not warranted as a means for some do gooder to gain points where there were none to gain. As is the case here.

It's not these people's Race that I deplore. It's their Religion & what these people want to do with it in our Country. If the person is Syrian Christian, a Marionite from Lebanon or a Coptic Christian from Ethiopia who is being persecuted & needs a home. I don't have a problem. Provided they come through the appropriate channels. But a Muslim who sole purpose in life is to kill the Infidel then I have a problem with their religion. Not their race.

Here is a link for you.

For those that have thought little of Ed Husic's (and there are many) swearing into parliament on the Qur'an, these are just three pages from this link (pages 13,14,&15)
http://www.gailallen.com/his/WhatEveryAmericanNeedsToKnowAboutTheQuran.pdf

This is our country and our future, do at least consider what is taking place here and remember Muslims are forbidden to lie and except the infidel.

This thread, not unlike many on the same subject is a battle field.
On one side the blame Labor mob plans its next insult.
A team of let them in thinkers sits sneering in another.
Rudd is trying to fix it.
Come! enlightened commentators know, surely they do?
Rudd got blindsided and got is wrong, well let them in team scream NO!.
Can we avoid the battle lines?
Be brave! say just how we would stop them.
Hint, ALP failed 12 months ago, failed its self and our country.
If they then put every Howard era plan in place!
We now would know we need another way, it just will not ever work now.
And?
The truth Tony Abbott is uninterested in stopping boats, betrays his party and our country, by not assisting in stopping the boats.
Because he feeds on the boat arrivals and deaths.

The truth Tony Abbott is uninterested in stopping boats,
Belly,
That's probably the silliest thing you've said thus far.

came from a suppressed Communist country, that you would show support for a group of people that are striving to & will suppress the very freedoms
Jayb,
Lexi isn't either all that bright or more than likely is a member of the group that does the suppressing. I think she is a hypocritical fake.

Lexi, a very good article by Denise Allen on Racism in Australia. As an active Green I can say, engaging with people on the asylum seeker issue, racism is alive and well in Australia. Not unusual for a "redneck" to unleash a tirade against these people and then qualify their whole racist diatribe with "You know, I'm not a racist!"
Its not difficult for politicians, like Howard and Abbott, to play the race card, fuel some voters fears and suspicions, while all a long being careful not to be directly seen as racist. It does win them votes, no doubt about that. However it is a dangerous game for these moderate conservative politicians to play, given the right circumstances, the extreme in society can hijack the issue, and building on the groundwork of these moderates, turning society to their extreme way of thinking. Those that appeal to 2% today can easily appeal to 50% tomorrow,
As so many here like to generalise about people from a Muslim background, shocked by Ed Husi swearing on the Koran, by the way, the Koran is not my book, Ed could have done his swearing on the Melbourne telephone directory for all I care, but it was his right to do so. The same people must be shocked that The Greens in NSW voted for Mehreen Faruqi, a migrant from Pakistan, to replace Cate Faehrmann in the NSW LC. Regardless of politics you could not meet a better Australians than Mehreen and her family. Mehreen for me proves the general lie some like to propagate here about Muslim people.

Beach, When will the Greens be held accountable? I suppose when you come to power, we can expect a late night knock on the door.

individual,

It seems to me that the intelligence of a poster can be assumed to be in inverse proportion to your suggestion. that they are 1. "stupid", 2. "a moron", or 3. not that bright"

On an adult forum, a poster should be expected to possess a little more argument and cogent substance to his assertions other than calling those with opposing views "stooopid".

Paul,

Not everyone that wants to stop the boats are racist. Some don't like thousands of people drowning, others just don't like human trafficking, or simply bludgers and crooks living off taxpayers money.

Potential Terrorists YOU may be right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2kKnzW4d8w

http://www.youtube.com/embed/z9pD_UK6vGU

"Not everyone that wants to stop the boats are racist. Some don't like thousands of people drowning, others just don't like human trafficking, or simply bludgers and crooks living off taxpayers money."

SM,
I totally agree, I want the boats stopped, I do not consider myself racist for wanting that. The vast majority of asylum seekers have been duped by human traffickers into paying to come to Australia. That does not make them criminals, they are simply people who want a better life for themselves and their families, can't blame them for that.
The question of how Australia deals with the problem is what the debate should be about, with flexibility and a degree of humanitarianism thrown in. All sides of politics have failed these people, and I include my own party in that, as well as yours, and the Labor Party. The issue has become far too politicized, when we should have been united we were divided, engaged in petty political games, simply for the purpose of point scoring with an eye to winning the next election. Whilst innocent people were drowning at sea we carried on with our petty politics, its a shame we have to live with.
Because of our divisions, it becomes fertile ground for the extremest to hijack the whole debate and sow the seeds of hatred, stigmatizing one minority group to gain leverage with the majority, for the sole purpose of pushing their extreme agenda. I don't want that for Australia, and I'm sure you don't either.

Someone attend to Jayb, please.

He's still in the playpen playing with his "Potential Terrorist" rattle.

And now he's got access to youtube......

(I've told you before to only give him the soft toys - he's not old enough for the big kid's stuff:)

The LNP policy of forcing boats back out into international waters with guns, as was done under Howard, prejudges asylum claimants without a process. Furthermore, Australia is responsible for human life under UN maritime convention so boat scuttling will carry on as normal. It appears Indonesia will not come to the party over a regional solution for Rudd or for Abbott.

The boats should be escorted in, as they are now, and the process should result in deportation of economic refugees. The process is the problem and the noises Carr and Rudd are making suggests that is where their attention will be directed over the next month or three.

Paul1405, "When will the Greens be held accountable?"

That is a serious question that deserves a serious answer. But the media is once again letting the Greens off Scot-free by not subjecting the Greens' performance and waffly policies to critical examination.

How many times will Christine Milne be allowed to rant for minutes after being asked a question? It is as though the Greens are a protected species as far as the media are concerned.

At least, My potential terrorist enemy, I answer questions in a straight forward rational manner. I do not deflect & refuse to answer the question because you know, we who know you, know that cannot argue against the truth. Therefore you are compelled to deflect. That's what your Islamic mantra tells you to do, isn't it.

Jayb,

You are truly laughable.

Where did you learn to debate?

Calling people namsies is primary school stuff.(and it's the juncture where Poirot departs the conversation - call me when you've learned the skill of argument without resorting to puerile labels)

Dear Paul1405,

I'm pleased that you found Denise Allen's article
interesting. Bob Carr's statements on asylum
seekers indicate that the Rudd government has decided
that refugees are fair game and Tony Burke, the new
Immigration Minister will no doubt be required to
follow this path set out so deinitely by Carr.
It appears there are more votes in the "hard-edged"
approach than in showing compassion and tolerance.
And this being an election year - the outcomes will
be fairly predictable from the two major parties.

Here's a link that I found interesting:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4369418.html

Dear Poirot,

I admire your tenacity.

poirot: call me when you've learned the skill of argument without resorting to puerile labels.

It was a general call, not to you in particular, but you did answer, therefore I assume you, in particular, are feeling guilty.

Poirot, call me when you've learned the skill of argument without resorting to deflection. #-)

Jayb,

I knew it was a general call (and not directed specifically at me).

That makes absolutely no difference to the principle whatsoever.

I don't debate people who resort to the employment of immature and vile epithets which they wield to slap their opponents.

Not respectful.

poirot, you never debate anyone! I can't remember one time you have mounted a reasonable argument on any subject. You deflect everything that is asked of you about all subjects. That's not a debate. That's a joke. You are asked to comment on something & you deflect. Then we ask you about your deflection & you deflect again & again & again. What sort of debate is that?

I think we are all sick & tired of chasing you around the bush & getting nowhere. Grrrr Rowff.

Lexi, "the Rudd government has decided that refugees are fair game"

That is a lie and you know it.

While I have been a critic of the government for its history of maladministration and scandals, there is no evidence whatsoever that Rudd and Labor (and the LNP for that matter) have lost compassion for refugees. Where is your evidence?

Why would you state something that is so obviously untrue? What is in it for you to spread such obviously wrong and malicious gossip against Labor and the major parties generally?

Quite apart from that, what is in it for you to give oxygen to people smuggling criminal gangs who managed to call the shots under the Gillard/Greens government? Their business model farms for windfall profits the well-heeled middle class who can afford high fees to criminals and they kick refugees out of contention for asylum.

Everyone,
Lets face it anyone can be a terrorist. You don't have to have a jihad or whatever. Look a Timmy McVeigh he was just a good ole home grown bomber. So lets stop being racist here and just declare anyone eligible for the tag.

Australia, not the Rudd government, has had a gut full of the boats.
No party of any shade will ever be elected again in this country if it does not try to stem the flow.
And a middle of the road thought.
*If we do not show we want them stopped the number per year will soon be over 6 figures*.
Bias Bigotry call me what you wish.
The enclavism and many other isms of SOME of these people is behind our rejection of other than hand selected migration.
And most not a few, are *convinced* economic refugees out number true refugees.

Australia, not the Rudd government, has had a gut full of the boats.
No party of any shade will ever be elected again in this country if it does not try to stem the flow.
And a middle of the road thought.
*If we do not show we want them stopped thenumber per year will soon be over 6 figures*.
Bias Bigotry call me what you wish.
The enclavism and many other isms of SOME of these people is behind our rejection of other than hand selected migration.
And most not a few, are *convinced* economic refugees out number true refugees.

Belly, "And most not a few, are *convinced* economic refugees out number true refugees"

The criminal gangs are not going to make a mistake and shuttle people for free are they? The push is from well-heeled middle class economic migrants who will not go through immigration after stepping off a plane. To be blunt, they would travel by plane with papers in hand if they thought they would get the deal they get from going just outside Indonesian waters and using the satellite phone to call their contacts in Oz to phone for their Navy cab to arrive at an engine-destroying rate of knots. The emergencies are orchestrated by the criminal gangs. It is fundamental to their highly successful business model.

In Australia, the many $$millions a year from taxpayers feeds a host of professionals and advocates who earn their daily bread from what has become a very profitable industry. There are so many snouts in the trough of taxpayers' money.

A recent article said that $20 billion of taypayers' money has been lost to this industry in five years. Any wonder there are vocal advocates for keeping it as it is and hopefully expanding it some more?

Dear onthebeach,

I prefer dealing with facts.
It's an occupational hazard.
Therefore I simply cite links that I feel
are relevant. You should do your research
before you post. Otherwise you end up looking
silly.

Now, regarding Bob Carr's statements here's a
link from which I obtained the information
I gave earlier:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/rudd-government-asylum-seeker-policy

And as for asylum seeker policies?
The following article sets things into perspective.
I hope this helps:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/immigration-what-a-political-and-policy-mess-20130704-2pes8.html

Lexi,

But you don't deal in facts. You are about half truths and allegations. Here is the example given earlier:

<Lexi, "the Rudd government has decided that refugees are fair game"

Where is your evidence that Rudd and Labor (and the LNP for that matter) have lost compassion for refugees?

What party do you have in mind that has the compassion you assert the major parties are lacking and state why you believe your nominated party is any better?

Jayb,

You have to be joking.

The reason I rarely engage you in any seriousness is because of your cheating style.

Slapping people with a vile label "before you even have your say" is like lashing out in the ring before the bell rings or hitting below the belt when it has rung.

There are a few around here who employ similar tactics.

onthebeach,

Now you're simply stirring.

I've provided you with the relevant links.
I suggest you re-read them.
If you still are looking for answers -
do your own research. Your regional
public library will have back issues of
newspapers, you can sit and browse at your
leisure.
All major newspapers covered the story of
Bob Carr's comments and the future direction
of the Rudd government's refugee agenda.

I can't help you any further.
Your perception problem is not my
responsibility.

Poirot: The reason I rarely engage you in any seriousness is because of your cheating style.

No one can engage you, poirot, because, as I have stated before, you deflect every attempt of debate with a deflection. When we address that deflection you throw in another deflection & so on & so on.

Lexi, at least will answer a question & put forward a reasonable argument for her point of view. You never do. You just ignore the question & deflect onto something entirely different. Is it any wonder people get frustrated with you?

At least when I make a statement I have some examples to back it up. Do you even attempt to discredit that statement? No. You deflect & go on about something else. Not a debaters Ar$#0(e. I don't care if you want to cry again.

Time for bed kids

cont'd ...

onthebeach,

I forgot to add that I also gave you a link concerning
the political and policy mess that both major parties
are currently in concerning the immigration debate.
You should read my posts, before you accuse me of
all sorts of things.
But as I said - your perception is not something I can
do anything about.

Here's the link again:

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/immigration-what-a-political-and-policy-mess-20130704-2pes8.html

Congratulations, Jayb,

That's three consecutive posts without labelling someone a "Potential Terrorist".

Things are looking up!

Lexi,

This is what you said, "the Rudd government has decided that refugees are fair game"

Where is your evidence that Rudd and Labor (and the LNP for that matter) have lost compassion for refugees?

It isn't true is it? Of course the major parties and Labor in particular since you mentioned them have not "decided that refugees are fair game".

that they are 1. "stupid", 2. "a moron", or 3. not that bright"
Poirot,
When did I ever call an intelligent person stupid, a bright person a moron or a competent person not that bright ?

onthebeach,

Look up what I actually did say (in full),
on page 15 of this discussion. As well as the two
links I gave in another post on that same
page.

As I stated earlier, I can't be held responsible
for your perception problem.

Cheers.

Lexi,

You made an outrageous and quite foul accusation against Kevin Rudd and his government, "the Rudd government has decided that refugees are fair game"

If you had any evidence for that allegation you would have provided it by now, instead of ducking and playing games.

No-one would seriously believe that the major parties have no compassion for refugees.

onthebeach,

"...an outrageous and quite foul accusation...."

Oh come now, notwithstanding we're used to you and your amateur dramatics, especially when you decide to grab hold of someone's trouser hem and not let go (Hitch yer duds up, Lexi)

It's oh-so clear that both the the Opposition and the government are vying with each other as to who can sound toughest on refugees (see "economic migrants").

We can see what it is, It's populist politics at its finest.

The only thing outrageous around here, otb, is your penchant for overdoing the dramatics.

Poirot: It's oh-so clear that both the the Opposition and the government are vying with each other as to who can sound toughest on refugees.

Thank God for that, at last, but I just bet it's all talk & no action as usual.

Poirot: We can see what it is, It's populist politics at its finest.

Finally, you agree that IT IS the popular option of the Australian people. Good on ya poirot. See it's not hard to admit you're wrong, is it? XXOOXX

Interesting.

Undergraduate students of 'logic and values', 'discussion techniques', fallacies in argument' etc. could really learn from some of these threads.

On this one, for instance, Poirot, my dear friend, has made eighteen 'contributions', to stretch the meaning of the word almost to breaking point, but has said almost nothing in relation to the thread. It reminded me a wrestling tag-team at one of those country shows of yesteryear, with one of the teams darting out every so often from a corner to sink a boot in or give someone a Chinese burn, and dart back again. Didn't actually do any damage, but a hell of an irritant, including for the audience.

She will now stew, and brood, and get petulant, and launch forth with an attack in every direction, as proof that this thread is really, like so many others, all about her, and how so many others here plot and plan how to pick on her and bring her down. From what, I'm not sure.

Divert, Poirot ! Divert ! Now's your chance !

BTT: of course, there are economic migrants, and they can join the queue like the rest. There are, after all, many millions of genuine refugees across the world, of whom Australia takes at least its proportionate share. I was a bit pissed off to learn that New Zealand will take only 750 refugees this year. With respect to our sheep-loving cousins, in proportion to their population, they should be taking about ten times as many.

And once the Coalition forces leave Afghanistan, there were will be many, many more genuine refugees knocking on our door - women, Hazaras especially - and then will be the time to kick up the annual intake. Thanks, in part, to all those Australians who demanded that we abandon the Afghan people to the Taliban.

Go for it, Poirot !

Cheers :)

Joe

Yada, yada, yada, Loudmouth,

Great to see you coming out in defence of those who pull the same stunts as you do.

Disingenuous labelling and snide insinuation is the way to do it, eh boys?

You really don't like it when someone calls you out on your shonky style....understandably so.

Loudmouth has made an art out of insinuating all sorts of things to his opponents in his inimitable sarcastic excuse for a style.

Jayb, thinks it's a great idea to start every post by slapping down his opponents with his "Potential Terrorist" line....(although he's posted four in row now without resorting to it - making progress)

Don't flatter yourself, Joe, that I could be bothered stewing and brooding over the likes of the talent on this thread - you have got to be joking!

Hi Poirot,

Sorry, that's NINETEEN posts now - and it is ! it is ! all about you !

And still, nothing about this thread.

And neither will # 20 be either, I'm betting. You won't be able to resist, will you, Poirot ?

Meanwhile BTT: here's a crazy idea: all of those people who arrive by boat - if they don't have exit documents from Indonesia, as legitimate refugees, in the queue, would have, then why not take them to Christmas island, make sure they are in good health, well-fed, and then fly them back to their country of departure, with a ten-thousand sort of inconvenience payment to that country's government for each person ?

In other words, they end up back where they started, no repercussions, the country gets compensation for all the embarrassment and inconvenience, and the smugglers lose some of their cachet. Would people ant to try that a second time ?

Now back to REAL topic: Poirot ! Do your stuff ! All huffy and hurt. Refuse to continue on this thread !

Do us a favor.

Cheers :)

Joe

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/indonesia-takes-aim-at-abbott-plan-20130705-2phhb.html
The link is a pointed and hard to ignore truth.
Dare we take the emotions out of the subject and confront the hard job it will be, stopping the boats?
For any government.
And are we paddling our canoe in a forward direction by reminding of past mistakes?
Reality seems clear, other country,s host unwanted refugees, [if some insist on calling them that.
And a regional solution looks best.

Loudmouth,

Great stuff!

Poirot has to be one of most intransigent, ideologically blinked posters on OLO --talk about locked-in syndrome.

You go boy!

SPQR,

Most humorous - not that you're intransigent, ideologically blinkered - or locked in....talk about pots and kettles! : )

Loudmouth,

Sorry to disappoint you, but in order to become "all huffy and hurt", I'd have to give a damn what you and some others here think.

I don't.

But it's a hobby of mine to call posters out on their shonky tactics. What''s wrong with highlighting Jayb's strategy of addressing fellow posters as "Potential Terrorists"? (merely because they disagree with him). That sort of garbage doesn't deserve a reply on subject, it deserves a rebuke.....not to mention your own ingenious devices, which I've covered many times before.

Here, I'll save you the trouble......

"Back to topic".

# 21 and bingo ! Nothing on-topic. Nada. Niente. Dipote. Niemals. Rien. Want to try for # 22, Poirot ?

Hi Belly,

Yes, what to do ? Forty million people, overwhelmingly innocent of doing anything particularly wrong, except to be from the wrong groups in the eyes of those in power in their home-countries. Forty million. All wanting to either go back home to a peaceful country or, if that's impossible, go to another peaceful country. Like Australia.

Some problems don't have easy solutions. Some don't have solutions at all, in the real world. But one of our problems is that, no matter what our annual humanitarian refugee intake might be, there will always be more who want to take the risks of coming here by leaky boat, to jump the queue.

So what to do, to encourage people to 'wait their turn', in dreadfully inadequate camps and hell-holes ?

Most certainly, to treat people with respect, as fellow human beings, and make sure that they are safe and healthy. And then, perhaps, put them on a plane back to their country of departure, with all the advice they need to apply properly, and to get into line behind all those who have done just that, and have been waiting for years.

Some stories don't have happy endings.

Joe

Loudmouth: # 21 and bingo ! Nothing on-topic. Nada. Niente. Dipote. Niemals. Rien. Want to try for # 22, Poirot ?

Ditto. Ever get the feeling you've got the wrong end of the stick, poirot.

I would sink a few boats, but that's just me. Withdraw the patrol Boats to within 200 K's of the Australian Mainland. We have no business being that far away from the mainland anyway.

Maybe a graphic video of just what they can expect when they get to Australia. Permanent detention for years, Sewn up mouths, going nuts, drowning, Christians, Women driving & walking on their own, Bondi beach & the Gold Coast, WTF, nude beaches. Not the sort of place a good jih.. errr Muslim would want to be associated with.

Well the talk fest in Indo is over & just as I thought, nothing. It's all just BS.

<Well the talk fest in Indo is over & just as I thought, nothing. It's all just BS>

Kevin13 is coming home with lighter pockets. Sorry, the Australian taxpayers have lighter pockets.

Kevin Rudd has certainly proven himself an able
diplomat as his recent visit to Indonesia clearly
showed. In a relatively short time the man has managed
to discuss the problem of asylum seekers with Indonesia
and although things may not change over night -
this is about building foundations that can be built on
in the future. Plus the NT's Cattlemen's Association
welcomed the support for increased live export quotas.
This came about with the establisment of the Indonesia-
Australia Red Meat and Cattle Forum - a $60 million
10 year initiative - to boost investment
in the Red Meat agri business sector in Indonesia.
Which will be good for the Australian beef industry,
good for Indonesian ivnestments and good also for
consumers.

Not bad for a man who's only been back in power for
a week.

onthebeach,

I've just come across your earlier post directed to
me again, where you assert that I made some
"false" allegations against Bob Carr , and the government.
I'd like to once again clarify this for you.
I did not such thing. I merely repeated Mr
Carr's own statements as I tried to explain
to you several times.
Mr Carr made those statements
concerning the government on the ABC's Lateline
program the night that Mr Rudd was re-elected as
PM. He's also made those statements on other programs
and in the newspapers. A "tougher, hard-edged assessment,"
were words used by him as the following link confirms:

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/no-advantage-in-allowing-carr-to-fan-asylum-flames-20130705-2phcr.html

Lexi,

<<Kevin Rudd has certainly proven himself an able diplomat as his recent visit to Indonesia clearly showed. In a relatively short time the man has managed to DISCUSS (DISCUSS!) (DISCUSS!) (DISCUSS!) the problem of asylum seekers with Indonesia>>

ROFLAO x 100

SPQR,

Well that's a bit more than Abbott managed to do when he had the opportunity.

"Failed to raise the matter", I believe is the general consensus.

How does one work through challenges and reach agreement without serious engagement?

Lexi,
Shahram Akbarzadeh article reminds me very much of the situation many Southern European refugees found themselves in when they first arrived in Australia after WWII. There was a substantial amount of suspicion and prejudice directed towards "reffo's". The saving grace at that time was the fact Australia was suffering from a labour shortage, so the economic pressure from "wogs, spicks, dagoes, garlic munchers etc" (a few of the more polite names the dinky-di Aussie had for these new arrivals) was not there. I must say not all treated migrants this way but it was fairly typical to treat refugees with suspicion. British migrants, pom's, got a better reception as they were seen as "like us" but they had their "bad habits" didn't wash, couldn't speak English properly, and was tight with his money, but was generally seen as okay.
To the 'usual Suspects' Joe said “New Zealand will take only 750 refugees this year." Why don’t you jump up and down about the huge number of economic refugees heading across the ditch from NZ, 57,000 last year . New Zealand is not too happy about it, they are losing a lot of skilled people, people they paid for to be educated and trained.
The comment from the Indonesian President highlighting the need for mutual cooperation between our two countries over asylum seekers may have scuttled the Abbott gunboat before he can get it into the water.

P'rot,

The more I see and hear about Kevin's tripping in Indonesia the more I am convinced that it's just a PR stunt.
You might recall, Julia made similar tough sounding noises just prior to the last election (but we later found it was just her empty stomach rumbling)

By special request just for you:

What Aus-tralia needs now are deeds, not deescussion
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What Aus-tralia needs now are deeds , not deescussion ,
No no please no more of your window dressins.
Lord, we don't need another Kevin 07,
We've had showmen and charlatans enough to harm
There's been talkfests and confabs to waste our time ,
Enough to last till the end of tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime

(feel free to sing it to your friends --or your The Voice audition)

Paul

Your article reminds me very much of the situation many Anglo-Ozzies
often find themselves in when walk through some of our western suburbs.
They are get shouted at and called kaffirs, infidels and redknecks

Just caught up with the thread after a day of illness.

I looked at my earlier posts that Jayb referred to and I think I have learnt my lesson - don't try irony!

After 36 pages on this topic, it's clear there is an unresolvable stand-off. What's hard to tell is how much this replicates the difference of opinion in the broader community, or whether just those people with strong views (either way) actually post on-line.

Further, when does such verbal stoushing tip over into actual fighting? Would people make some of these statements if we were all face-to-face, rather than anonymous and on-line? Are we all still Australians together, ready to help each other in fire and flood, or could we end up like some of the countries we've been discussing, with physical violence between people of different views?

Dear SPQR,

This from the web for you:

1) On LOL -
How else would you laugh? Have you ever heard anyone LOS?
(Laughing out silent). You can smirk, you can smile,
you can be silently gleeful, but if you see a silent
laugh it's probably just a bad case of wind!

2) On DISCUSS -
Achievements are hammered out on the anvil of
discussion and debate.
A leader who's not taking part in discussions is like
a boxer who never goes into the ring.

Dear Paul1405,

Listening to the Coalition speakers on TV recently - they
are sounding rather desperate and looking foolish in
pursuing their usual mantras. They need to come up
with something better. People are beginning to question
what the same old rhetoric.

Dear Poirot,

Someone better tell SPQR that singing is not the same
as discussion.

Thank you, Poirot, what you say is quite appropriate.

Paul,

We have a special arrangement with New Zealand, and none of them are economic 'refugees'. They have the scenery, we have the jobs (for now) - I think that's how it's supposed to work.

I'm still trying to work out what's wrong with my brain-wave of flying people back, after medical etc care, plus a bonus per person for the Governments back there of, say, ten thousand dollars, for resettlement. How long might that have to go on ? Yeah, something's wrong there but for the live of me, I can't see it.

Joe

Dear Cossomby,

I've stated this previously - Australians'
interests are far more complex than those who
insist on seeing all discussions through
a fixed ideological viewfinder. Such one-eyed
bias is a triumph for negativity, and this
country has never needed a more positive, open,
and compassionate approach to differences in
opinion than now. As far as this forum is concerned -
a sense of humour helps - as does having an
occasional break. Also, there are enough posters
on OLO who have mastered the art of reasoned,
intelligent argument - a skill not easily acquired.
They keep us coming back.

The Shadow Minister this morning held a side walk press conference.
Gawd hope we all know he lied!
Gee did he lie,that single statement twisting the words of Indonesian leader may well come back to haunt.
At the same time another man, this time one of substance told from Indonesia's side how they think of us.
Soon to be the worlds fourth biggest economy, it shames us all, that Abbott,s rabbits are taunting our nearest neighbor.
In fact I have no doubt Tiny target Tony has ZERO intention of sending boats back.
Such is the nature of the man.
He miss leads with intent.
And will if elected look to the Rudd and Indonesian plan made yesterday.
I truly distrust him enough to say I would not lift an eye lid if in government Abbott,s very first action was to institute the Malaysian solution.

Dear Belly,

I can't wait for the public debate between the two
contenders. It should be interesting.
Voters will then be able to assess who deserves
to govern.

In the meantime, the PM's positivity
and efforts in working towards a regional solution
just may have a good effect and good outcomes on
the complex issue of asylum seekers. As a wise
person once stated - "Discussion is an exchange of
knowledge and ends in achievement, whereas an
argument is an exchange of ignorance," or words to
that effect.

Lexi,

What a difference some hours make. You are now lauding Kevin Rudd's diplomacy whereas shortly before you had the opposite view -that Rudd and Labor (and the LNP for that matter had no compassion for refugees",

<Lexi, "the Rudd government has decided that refugees are fair game"

[My post of Friday, 5 July 2013 4:22:58 PM refers]

You are continuing to give advice on how to conduct discussion too. LOL

We are truly fortunate to be blessed with a person with superior intelligence and skills such as yourself. To quote you again,

:exi, "there are enough posters on OLO who have mastered the art of reasoned, intelligent argument - a skill not easily acquired".

Gosh but you are so smart.

This dreadful situation has been allowed to go on for so long now that none of the original ideas are workable any more. A totally new approach is needed & is needed soon. If Rudd gets in again we can kiss our way of life good bye & not for the better either.
What's needed now is not high level butt kissing but a strong stand & if that means people will perish because they dismiss a strong stance then so be it. The only message they'll understand is guaranteed failure in trying to get to Australia via the back door under false pretences.

Lexi,

You are such a tease, only hours ago you were sadly depressed and angry, flogging Kevin Rudd and the Labor government as having no compassion for refugees. You alleged, "the Rudd government has decided that refugees are fair game".

Now you are claiming the reverse is the case.

Are we to take it that you now see some hope of your job in the victim industry will be continuing for a time? LOL, too good!

onthebeach,

I can fully understand why you like
intelligent women.

Opposites attract.

But keep on trying to save both your faces.

Lexi,

I like good natured women with a sense of humour. No different to the men I like to chat with. People are people.

I have never been hung up on how smart people are. We can all meet at one level and the the most successful and intellectually blessed people I have met have always been so humble and employed simple English to make their point. Then again, I have been enlightened by just as many people who lacked formal education. Gifts differing.

You are welcome to keep your insults Lexi. Although you do distribute them rather freely and often. LOL

onthebeach,

I understand.

You never want to hurt anybody.

You just feel an obligation.

SPQR said "The more I see and hear about Kevin's tripping in Indonesia the more I am convinced that it's just a PR stunt."

You don't need to be convinced, there is nothing Rudd or Labor could do to convince you otherwise. As an arch conservative you have a closed mind, with preconceived notions. I often go west of Parramatta and I don't get called kaffir, infidel or redneck, you must have that something that attracts these insults. Are you wearing a sandwich board with "I hate towel heads" in 6 inch letters front and back when you go out that way? LOL

It will only take a million of those invaders who deceitfully call themselves refugees to alter Australia for the worse for good. They've nearly achieved just by coming here. Considering the birthrate of these people they've already got their foot in the door to the ruining of Australia. Considering that they have already depleted our social security resources it won't take much more to dip the scales. What upsets me is that there are many genuine applications for people trying to make Australia their future home & contribute to the australian way of life yet the Paul1405's, the lexis, the Poirots et al want Australia to succumb to these backward forces either by ignorance or calculated deceit. I have yet to work out if I should call them morons or traitors..

Just in. It looks like the visit to Indo was a farce.

Indonesia doesn’t use the three Patrol Boats we have already given them to help stop the smugglers and are not likely too.

Kevin Rudd has taken a kitbag of goodies to Indonesia this week as he seeks more help from that county to curb the boat flow.

The second-hand C-130 Hercules planes that Indonesia was going to buy at “mates rates” will now be a gift, and there will be patrol boats (customs not naval) thrown in. There could also be developmental aid.

How much more is our incompetent government going to give away, while all the time Indonesia laughs at us??

All I have at this time.

Didn't they try appeasement with Hitler and the Third Reich.
I can't see much difference in the Rudd (and Labor) approach to
Indonesia.

Let's step back a bit. Genuine refugees are not working together secretly to plot and plan against our way of life - the poor bastards are fleeing certain death - it's no fun to be stuck in some sh!t-hole camp, year after year, just because you're from this group or that group - you've left behind everything you've ever worked and lived for, your sister or wife or mother has been r*ped and maybe killed, who knows - while out here, you and me, we've been watching some pap on Channel X.

So try and have some decency - in an ideal world, most of these 'refugees' would not be refugees at all, they would be happier to stay home. Those 'economic' refugees - yes, let them join the queue marked 'migrant'.

But the rest of us should just thank lucky our stars, while we push those other poor bastards off the ladder that got us where we are.

Individual, JayB, and SPQR, to name just a few,

I've read and digested your posts on this thread, but unlike Lexi, I don't have the time to read all the papers and watch all the political t.v. that she finds all her links from. Such snippets are for those who can't formulate their own opinions through dialogue with their peers, and need to rely on articles which are written with a reporter' bias, sources from overseas or reference to out of date ideas. It's very difficult to stay current on such quickly changing scenarios.

Lexi,
You must be either a speed reader extraordinaire, or have a team to help you find these articles. I suspect there are not enough hours in anyone's day to manage this task single-handedly - even for a busy librarian.
Unfortunately I now realise most of these posts not only don't help solve the original question asked on this topic, but are purely a form of entertainment for some posters, hence are completely unproductive and time wasting.

Worldwatcher,

I'll let you in on a secret, but keep it to yourself.

The OLO entity Lexi is not a person it's actually a internet bot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot
She doesn't actually read any of the lefty links she gathers (that should be obvious to anyone who studies her associated posts).
She merely aggregates all the nastiest bits from all the left leaning sites ala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_crawler
and links us to them in the hope that it will confuse most of most of the time.

The anti-Lexi forces play a role kinda similar to that played by Jeff Bridges in Tron: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ay_H0p2YDk
combating the forces of darkness and repairing the damage.

SPQR,

More likely the "anti-Lexi" forces comprise all the rejects from the bar room scene in Star Wars.

(Kudos to whoever dreamed that line up)

worldwatcher,
I agree with you re Lexi. It's so typical of our public servants to have so much time at hand whilst collecting generous pay & benefits & then denounce those who pay taxes to keep the public servants. No wonder they vote ALP to keep the Gravy train rolling.

It will be a cold day in Hell before Lexi ever admits anything positive about Australia.

otb,

"It'll e a cold day in hell before Lexi ever admits anything positive about Australia,"

What a bunch of crap!

But you would say that anyway, Poirot. You have heaps of form yourself.

Time for you and Lexi to indulge in stroking and grooming each other, with your usual baby talk as well. Where is 'Lex'? LOL

All good fun, girls, but BTT:

* This government has increased the annual refugee intake from 14,000 to 20,000;

* People arriving by boats are, in their desperation, trying to detour around this annual intake and jump the queue (yes, of course, there is one: forty million refugees in the world ?);

* Regardless of what proportion of those people are not actually refugees, but economic migrants without entry papers, there is a process, and an annual quota, and 'boat-people' are, by definition, not part of that quota;

* So: should the boats be allowed to land, or be towed, to Christmas Island etc., and after health and security checks, etc., all genuine refugees be brought to the mainland and released into the general community, with the right to work ? Should they be accepted as part of that annual quota (which means that those who have applied properly now move further back in the queue) ?

* OR should those arriving without proper entry papers be set to Nauru or Manus and told to wait their turn ?

* OR should the boats be towed back into Indonesian/Sri Lankan waters and handed over to those authorities ?

* OR should the people on those boats be taken to Christmas Island, given all health and medical services that they may nee, and then flown back to their country of departure, with x thousand dollars per person for the government concerned for their troubles ?

No easy solutions.

Joe

Loudmouth,

"All good fun girls, but BTT."

Ahem, Joe,....whadaya mean "girls"?

The last page or so has been filled with guys "off topic" giving a commentary on Lexi and her style.

Isn't it strange that you call for the girls to get "BTT" even when it's the fellas waxing lyrical off topic on the subject of one of the women contributors here.

(Notwithstanding that I put my brief two cents-worth in:)

Thank you, Poirot, for your valuable contributions.

Now BTT.

Cheers :)

Joe

Got that, Joe....

BTT is reserved for people with whom you argue against.

Carry on, boys......tell us more about Lexi and her opinions.

Apparently Joe, as chief arbiter on topic around here, reckons BTT doesn't apply to you.

(or if it does, he's mistaken you for a "girl").

: )

: )

BTT

Bob Carr, "But now boat arrivals have surged to nearly 3000 per month in 2013. If this persists we’d see arrivals close to 40,000 a year. That would equal nearly 20 per cent of our annual migration program, being delivered by people-smugglers - contracted out, if you like"

Thanks to Kevin07, now Kevin13 (same jet trails).

Onthebeach,

And all of the allocated refugee intake, twice over. No room this year for those who did all the right things.

So what would be the point of going through all the proper procedures, waiting your turn, putting up with years of nothing, if all you have to do instead is find the money to go by boat ?

Thank you for sticking to topic, mate.

Joe

If the subject bis to kick Rudd, it ignores the single reason we are still getting record numbers of boats.
Tony Abbott.
It would have broken Tony and his front benches hearts if Labor found a way to get its legislation past the negative party.
Frolicking in the good press Abbott put him self before our country and *did every thing he could* to see the boats and the deaths continue.

Belly,

Christine Milne and others of the Greens Protest Party have taken credit many times for blocking Julia Gillard's proposed changes affecting illegal *immigrants.

That being so, why aren't you giving credit where credit is due, to Labor's trecherous and obstructive side-kicks, the Greens Protest Party?

Why do you continue to shield the Greens Protest Party from scrutiny and accountability when arguably that Party did more damage to Labor than the Opposition? Milne was breaking Rudd's family jewels before and immediately after he became PM (again). That is because the Greens take Labor's votes.

The Greens would bury Labor tomorrow for the sake of a headline. You know that, I know that and the whole world knows you know that. So why the BS pretence?

* Which is what other democratic nations that don't have the extreme political correctness of Australia call economic migrants.

Well Gentlemen I am back.

We had a family emergency overnight.
But things are stable now.

I've read all of your posts and am
quite amazed at the depth of feeling towards
my postings.

However, I'm not insulted. Which I presume was
your aim because for any of you to insult me,
I must first value your opinion and seeing as none of you
have got it right - I will take it all as
simply stirring with no malice intended.

Now let us get back to the topic.

According to Michael Bachelard, Indonesia Correspondent,
in the Saturday Age newspaper, July 6, 2013,
"Indonesia has delivered a rebuke to Tony Abbott's
turn-back-the-boats policy, signing a communique warning
against this action. The communique, signed by Prime
Minister Kevin Rudd and Indonesian President Susilo
Bambang Yudhoyono, reinforces both countries' emphasis
on regional solutions to people smuggling."

"They stressed the importance of avoiding unilateral
actions which might jeopardise such a comprehensive
regional approach and which might cause operational or
other difficulties to any party," the communique said.

"The President of Indonesia proposed to call a conference
of "all parties" in the region, who he said must be
jointly responsible for the increasing flow of asylum
seekers and the power of people smugglers. He stated
that "Indonesia also receives thousands of boat people...
we have to manage this inflow and at the same time, if we are
the only ones solving this issue, it will not be fair."
The conference according to the Age will be held at the end
of this month.

It would involve countries such as Afghanistan, Iran and
Myanmar, where many refugees come from, countries such as
Indonesia that they pass through and Australia, their
destination.

It will be interesting to see what if anything develops
as a result.

- No policies from Kevin13.

- Just another talk fest and a chance to don another gay Batik shirt. Kevin07 used to have heaps and heaps of talk fests as most will remember.

- Kevin13 has jetted off again with the missus in that sweet luxury VIP jet. It doesn't produce 'poisonous carbon dioxide', apparently.

Yes, all already covered, but what about some answers?

onthebeach,

Any policy detail on Tony's "turn the boats around"?

Surely, for you to be criticising Rudd's "actual" efforts (in contrast to empty blather), you must be privy to the really super-dooper stuff the Libs have yet to get around to releasing.

How are Tony and Co going to turn around the boats and deliver them to Indonesian territory with the cooperation of the Indonesians?

That should be "without" the cooperation of the Indonesians.

I'll add that "cooperation" usually involves dialogue....something that OTB seems to think is a waste of time - at least when Rudd attempts to get some underway.

PhillipS if you are out there come in.

We need your input desperately

The forces of darkness and misinformation are regrouping

Lexi,
yes, they PASS through Indonesia to come to Australia. How about we offer them safe conduct to Indonesia ?

Lexi,

Michael Bachelard is a reporter, and yes, some of us have read the article too. Quite frankly one could see that as a threat to Australia. Of course, we are not privy to whether his article was written under his own auspice, or suggested it be written by Indonesian authorities.

More importantly, Rudd mentioned the word conflict with Indonesia regarding the 'boat people' problem. This would seem to suggest he has some fear of retaliation by Indonesia if we don't play it their way. If he has that fear, he does not represent all Australians. Many of us see it as bluff, and would be willing to counter that.

Yes, a regional conference would be good, and also be a delaying tactic of at least months while this was arranged, and still could have no final consensus among the participants, leaving us back to where we are now. So Rudd should think first about his own citizens, and how to stem the flood in the meantime. So far we've heard nothing from him that would reassure us, and the boats are still coming.

No, I don't have the answers either, but I think the election will show us we need a strong leader who listens to his own people first, and then act accordingly. And it is so complex it needs more than a few hastily thrown together fearful announcements by our new/old/new P.M.
Action will speak louder than words, and since when have Aussies ever bowed down to another nation in fear? Let us not start now.

Personally, I was outraged that he didn't reflect on how this nation would react to his speech. He has publicly stated he has learned to reflect before he opens his mouth and puts his foot in it, yet on the boat arrivals [which are such a large issue for this country] he would appear to be conciliatory towards Indonesia at our expense. We are the voters he is hoping will vote for him, yet I see him as already betraying us.

I think this conference of interested Nations will be a farce. The Indonesians won't accept of the illegal boat people back & they won't turn any back that arrive in Indonesia either.

That's the key. The Indo's should be turning them back when they arrive. I know that most illegal entrants arrive in Indonesia by fast ferry from Georgetown, Malacca & Mua with the help of the Malays.

According to Rudd, Last night, Indonesia is the 7th. most financially secure nation in the World & will be the 5th. by 15. If so, why are we buying their Armed forces for them? 24 Su-27's in 03. 3 Armadale Patrol Boats a few years ago, now another lot & C130’s, all for free. Alright we didn't buy the Su27's directly, but we DID give them the equivalent amount in Aid 3 months before they brought them off the Russians. We provide Millions in School Aid. We built their State Radio Station curtsey of the ABC. We give them Millions in Material Aid for their disasters, Agriculture, and Industrial Industries. The Indo say that if we tow the Boats they will regard it as a hostile act & it will destroy our relations with them. Bl00dy 'ell, so be it! & we want all our gifts & Aid back.

Policy 1 Withdraw from the UM Convention on Refugees.
Policy 2 Turn the boats around.
Policy 3 Anyone who reaches Australian soil charge them under the Criminal Code and lock the up till you deport them.
Policy 4 Bill the for our costs, they seem to have money.

Re " More importantly, Rudd mentioned the word conflict with Indonesia regarding the 'boat people' problem. This would seem to suggest he has some fear of retaliation by Indonesia if we don't play it their way."

I don't think it's a matter of retaliation by Indonesia, rather a basic question: if the RAN blocked boats close to the Indonesian border and tried to shepherd them across it, what would the Indonesian Navy do: shepherd them back to Indonesia? Or block them crossing the line? Most likely there'd be a standoff along the line of the border, and the two governments would quickly get involved. I doubt that either navy would actually shoot at the other, rather it would be a question of who'd blink first (probably us), and whatever happened would be precipitated by the actions of the crew and passengers of the boats (eg sinking them) and dependent on the weather etc. It would be a diplomatic incident rather than conflict, and the risk would be things unintentionally getting out of hand, people getting killed, and press and politicians in both countries blowing it up into a 'conflict'. I would bet that both navies have game-played this and will want to avoid it because of the risk of unintended consequences.

The worry is that either side of Australian politics might take this to the brink for political advantage. The best thing we can all do to avoid this is cool the debate, and push for a broader political/diplomatic solution, eg action along the Malaysian-Indonesian border since the problem is Malaysia rather than Indonesia. (UNHCR stats @Jan13: ca 220,000 in Malaysia, ca 8-16,000 in Indonesia.)

worldwatcher,

".....since when have Aussies ever bowed down to another nation in fear..."

Well, that's about as cringe-worthy as it gets.

Big tough Australia is more like the wimpy rich kid in the region whose only experience in real fights are those he's experienced as a back up to the Britain of the US.

In regional matters, he forced to rely on diplomacy - not tough talk.

This is a regional issue and should be handled by diplomacy...not by bravado and vacuous slogans and pamphlets bandied about by an Opposition in lieu of substance.

Worldwatcher,

Thank You for your opinion.

I feel that this is a regional problem and
the key to finding solutions lies with regional
co-operation. I admire what our PM is attempting
to do. And I feel this is a step in the right
direction. Confrontation is not the way to go.
I agree with Michael Gordon's article, "No
advantages in allowing Carr to fan asylum flames,"
in The Saturday Age, July 6th, 2013 ..." The
imperative ...is to negotiate a regional framework
that doesn't invite the suspicion in Indonesia
that Australia is simply trying to offload its
problem on to them - one that tackles the
criminality of people-smuggling syndicates
and finds safer options for asylum seekers than
boaridng leaky boats."

The PM has recognised that mistakes have been made in the
past, and as Gordon tells us - this is signalling
that everything is up for review, lowering expectations
of a quick fix. It would appear that a good start
has been made.

This is definitely not a regional problem, it's based on global experiences & an attempt of a global takeover. There's global backing for this agenda.

individual,

As far as refugees coming on Indonesian boats is concerned, it's a regional issue.

One that needs to be sorted between the place of most recent departure - Indonesia - and the destination - Australia.

Poirot: As far as refugees coming on Indonesian boats is concerned, it's a regional issue. One that needs to be sorted between the place of most recent departure - Indonesia - and the destination - Australia.

Agreed. Australia doesn't want them coming & Indonesia won't have them back once they have left port. Even if they are in Indonesian waters. What Indonesia needs to do is stop them at their gate when they arrive & send them back to where they came from. Indonesia & Malaysia can do that do that because they are not a signatory to the UNCHR. If you ever watch Border Security, Australia & other Countries do it all the time. It's not a problem.

That's what Rudd should have told the Indo's. Schimple ;-)

That, with a signed declaration that they have no intention of claiming Asylum before they are granted a Visa to travel to Australia. Plus sign another one on the Customs Declaration before they deplane.

Poirot, "Big tough Australia is more like the wimpy rich kid in the region whose only experience in real fights are those he's experienced as a back up to the Britain of the US"

Where the hell did you come from and by what right do you say that, Poirot? It is insulting rubbish.

What a truly ignorant and disgusting thing to say.

When have you ever volunteered for active service, old fruit?

JayB,

Well now, you really have brought up very good points for us to digest. I hope other members will read these and realise how we seem to have already bent over backwards to facilitate good enough relations with Indonesia, that they in turn should be only too willing to co-operate with us over the boats problem.

We've already given enough help and goodwill gestures to Indonesia. What are they giving in return? And why is the P.M. not reminding them that we need co-operation from them too? Does our largesse deserve no return at all? If so, why give it with no strings attached?
We really, really can't afford to throw money away to curry favour with other countries every time they are visited by our politicians. Charity should start at home - we are the employers, and pay too well for the results we are currently getting.

Lexi,

I like your optimism, and would like to be able to agree with you, but somehow I think you are going to be as disappointed as myself.

Yes, it would be good if it could be resolved in the region with no outside or Greens bleeding hearts input. I also disagree with you that KR has made a step in the right direction. Remember, it was KR who started the breach of our porous border, and still maintains there can be no quick fix, thereby softening us up to the realisation that nothing is going to change in the near future.

Howard stopped it dead in it's tracks, so yes, it can be done. Then maybe we can examine the cases for genuine refugee FAMILIES who dare not risk their children's lives on leaky boats, and probably don't have the money to bribe their way here anyway.

Wouldn't a good parent endure some time in a refugee camp as long as their children were safe, the family unit was preserved, and they knew at the end of this they would have safe and legally sanctioned passage for them to a country not torn apart by war?

These are the people who should be given first priority and are most likely to integrate through their children. It would also maintain a balance of the sexes, unlike the [what- 80 to 95% maybe?] young and illegal males who are currently flooding us.

Maybe you can ferret out an exact percentage of the male/female/child under 10 ratio arriving in the last 4 years.

Of course, we still will have to believe the figures we are given, and being a sceptic, I know they may not be true - just what the pollies want us to believe. I no longer trust any of them to have anything but their own interests first and foremost, and they keep proving that to us.

As far as refugees coming on Indonesian boats is concerned, it's a regional issue.
Poirot,
You're wrong because you're not thinking far enough. Look at it again, think again & then see what you see. Believe it, it is a global agenda, it only looks regional.

Well individual I agree with you, in part.
It is a global issue.
And too a regional issue.
Different people using some times different methods.
While UNHCR is blind to the issue, we need to localize the problem.
And all over the world use regional solutions.
We and for that matter should ignore no tool in stopping economic refugees .
If we could change the wording of the UNHCR document on refugees,we could over night stop the problem.
UN should focus on jobs and income in the places these folk come from first.

onthebeach,

I wasn't referring to individual service, or servicemen and women.

I was referring to chest-thumping on an international scale. Australia is not, and never has been, in a position to stand up as an autonomous military power on larger scale international issues.

We depend on our alliance with leading world powers for our protection from major invasion. And we assist them when called upon.

......

individual,

On the subject of refugees coming to Australia by boat from Indonesia, it is a regional issue.

Of course the diaspora from Middle-Eastern and North African countries is a global issue....one which probably can't be halted. There have been many great migrations throughout history - this is merely one more instance.

Poirot,

Thank you for your explanation. I would be happy too for an Australian PM and Foreign Minister who did not believe they are God's gift to the world and presume to give advice to other countries wherever they go. Although much of the posing is aimed at justifying at home their frequent international travel.

Dear worldwatcher,

I'd like you to read the following link:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3886792.html

I think it sums things up rather well.

I am optimistic about a regional solution.
As the PM indicated - things may not change
overnight but this is about building foundations
that can be built on.

Dear Poirot,

The establishment of the Indonesia - Australia
Red Meat and Cattle Forum - a $60 million ten
year initiative to boost investment in the Red Meat
agri business sector in Indonesia will be good for
Australian beef industry, good for Indonesian
investors and good also for consumers. The NT's
Cattlemen's Association welcomed the support for
increased live export quotas.

As you stated previously - not bad for a PM who's
only been back for such a short time.

Economic refugees transiting through Indonesia is a regional issue.

Boats headed for Australia is a domestic issue.

Turning the boats around is a domestic unilateral issue, as is detention, imprisonment of smugglers, deportation of unsuccessful claimants, not processing those that have destroyed their documents etc.

Rudd has come away empty handed, with only an offer of further meetings. It is clear that Indonesia does not care whether asylum seekers go to Australia since Juliar screwed up the cattle trade.

Lexi: The establishment of the Indonesia - Australia Red Meat and Cattle Forum - a $60 million ten year initiative to boost investment in the Red Meat agri business sector in Indonesia will be good for
Australian beef industry, good for Indonesian investors and good also for consumers. The NT's Cattlemen's Association welcomed the support for increased live export quotas.

Another $6M a year gift to the 7th. most financially secure nation in the World soon to be the 5th. They should be doing that not us.

Indonesia is laughing at us all the way down to the dock to wave off the illegal immigrants they don't want staying in their country. They already have enough Muslims & Australia only has 2.4%. They want to increase that percentage by 20000 a year so Australia will be forced to eventually become a Muslim Caliphate.

SM,

Not empty handed at all.
Things may not change overnight
but this is about building foundations
that can be built on.

Achievements are hammered out on the anvil
of discussion and debate. And the NT's
Cattlemen Association welcomed the support for
increased live export quotas. It's good for
the Australian Beef Industry.

Dear Jayb,

As I stated earlier things may not change overnight -
but this is about building foundations that can
be built on.

Lexi,

What a pile of rubbish. This was a meeting to arrange further meetings.

The only thing that has changed over night is that the number of boats and deaths at sea has increased rapidly after the abolition of the Pacific solution.

I still say its appeasement

Lexi,

The link only shows figures up to 2010. since then it would show a far steeper curve over this last 3 year.
Our population is spread out over a vast area, and in urgent need of updating already inadequate facilities, i.e. hospital beds, doctors etc. road and rail congestion, kids in temporary school buildings, [and the list goes on] for which we don't have the money!

Having seen photos of the camps for migrants, how can we say their conditions are cruel? They have food, water, accommodation, recreational facilities, cigarettes, internet and t.v. provided.How many people here have air conditioning units which I noticed in the camp photos, and which I would presume we provide free electricity for? In other photos I have seen temporary tent accommodation which had to be hastily erected for the unexpected surge of arrivals. In the mainland camps here it's no different than ordinary housing. So it's a more communal living. Well so are our mining camps up North, and we don't have them rioting, burning their accommodation, and going on hunger strikes. On top of that, they fight each other too because they still can't let go of their tribal politics and religion.

If these people were genuine refugees, why would they object to being so well catered for? Is it fair to those of us who work hard to keep doling out money to them and to the detriment of our own needy?
These migrants keep coming because word is sent back to them via free phone calls and wireless internet just how good they can have it here. Anyone who thinks differently needs to know this is a fact, and I have personal knowledge that this happens.
Sorry Lexi, to me that is just one more biased article I've read using old figures to prove his point. I could go on picking holes in it, but time forbids me at the moment.

onthebeach in an answer to Poirot you go close to proving your personal bias is leaving no room for the truth.
And clearly in degenerating Rudd unfairly show your inability to see Abbott as he is.
As an Abbott fan do you too, as he does want the boats to continue to come?

chrisgaff1000: This was a meeting to arrange further meetings.

& another meeting & another meeting & on & on & on. This is what public servants do. If they solve the problem they'll be out of a job.

It's like the video "The Nail" nobody really want's to solve the problem they want to talk about & we all just have to listen.

The link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

Dear worldwatcher,

On April 29th 2013 the ABC's Four Corners program
aired, "No Advantage: Inside Australia's Offshore
Processing Centres." The documentary went inside
Australia's offshore processing centres on Nauru
and Manus Island. Using hidden cameras we were given
the full impact of the conditions under which people
were forced to live. The program exposed the very
harsh conditions and the implications these conditions
had on both the health and well being and human rights
of asylum seekers detained there as well as the
psychological impact that this suffering had on people
who worked in the centres.

It's a shame that you didn't see the program. You would
then not be making the comments you made in your last
post.

I'm sorry that you did not like my last link.
Perhaps this one you you'll regard a bit more highly:

http://theconversation.com/what-if-it-was-our-kids-four-corners-and-asylum-seekers-13811

SM,

Now you're spruiking all the wisdom of the
Abbott:

1) On climate change: "absolute crap."
2)On honesty: "One man's lie is another man's
judgement call."
3)On poverty: "we just can't stop people from
being homeless if that's their choice."

And - from you:
1)On asylum seekers - and trying
to find a regional solution to the problem:
"Absolute rubbish."

This on a leader who can fly off to Indonesia to
explore new solutions to the asylum seekers
argument and mend the damage to live cattle
exports.

"Absolute rubbish?"

I guess repeating slogans that sound good is
easier.

Economic refugees transiting through Indonesia is a regional issue.

Boats headed for Australia is a domestic issue.
Shadow Minister,
If it were confined to what you say then yes I'd agree but, it isn't confined to our region is it ?
Australia is the last frontier for Islam & that's what this is all about. I'm happy to say that the greater majority of members of that religion are decent people but we're not talking about them are we ? Where the problem is for us is to learn from the mistaken compassion of all the other nations which took them in. Or are you saying they don't have a problem with these asylum seekers now 40 years down the track ?
As a 14 year old back in Europe I remarked on the future consequences of so many Gastarbeiter coming into the country. I'm sad to say that I was right then & my views were dismissed then there as they are here now. Well, good luck Australia you'll need & need it soon.