Here in Australia, over the last twenty years our national prison population has been increasing at three times the rate of the national population, despite the fact that serious crime has not significantly increased in most categories over this same period of time. Given expenditure on Australian prisons is now approaching $2 billion a year, it is a particularly expensive operation. The “justice reinvestment” movement proposes that it is now time to consider more effective and more economically viable alternatives. Justice reinvestment proposes that funds be diverted from incarceration and invested in preventative programs aimed at reducing offending behaviours. It features a strong community development approach to crime prevention, working with communities to bolster local social service infrastructure.

The approach has been applied in the US, where already $443 million has been saved, a further $240 of these savings have been reinvested in drug and alcohol programs, education and community initiatives. Currently there is a parliamentary commission investigating the value of a justice reinvestment approach in Australia.

What are your thoughts? Is this something that politicians/service users/ communities should embrace? Is it time Australia utilised a justice reinvestment approach?

Bring back capital punishment, because if the recent case of murder is not a case for the death penalty, what is?

I welcome our new contributer, and say I too here and in real life have called for change.
In a current thread and many past ones for law reform.
And in a recently stalled thread and many past ones, for welfare reform.
Just handing out more welfare, in my view is not productive.
In seeking for solutions, we must confront this truth, the public must support and agree with the change.
Current welfare is not always policed, and in part we pay a few to both commit crime and stay on welfare.
Given current debate, *refugees/Migrants* coming here for our welfare, see a Foreign Minister ABC TV this week placing our social security system, high on the list of why his country,s people get in boats.
Less time in prison?
Given the total failure of our justice system, in letting awful people with awful records out early, to commit more crime, do you see popular support for less time in prison.
In my view if both welfare and crime prevention are to be linked first create true work for welfare for at least the unemployed.
And that on its own will help.
We, both of us, should be happy both sides of the house by voting against Capital punishment, do not agree with Rechtub

It amazes me that alcohol is legal and other drugs are illegal. Legalising almost all drugs and treating addiction as a social rather than as a criminal problem would reduce the prison population.

In today's news was the announcement that ANZ was getting rid of many employees and outsourcing jobs to other countries. Poverty and unemployment are sources of crime. If a corporation wishes to exist in Australia and make money from Australians they should be obligated to employ Australians wherever possible. This could be effected by financial penalties if a company decides to outsource when there are Australians who could do the work.

Minimising outsourcing and legalising most drugs would reduce the prison population.

Belly, for the record, the only cases that I would support the death penalty, are those where the offender has been caught red handed.

David f this is why I mentioned my view changes should be ones most agree with.
And your thoughts, shared by your party the greens that drugs should be legalized highlights why.
Few understand, for the most part drugs harm the less well off and make some already rich, richer.
I will support a change that confiscates all property included hidden in other names, of rich in any such crime, to fund imprisonment for as many as it can.
The authors views, to try to limit those committing crimes has Merritt.
I once said legalizing, but controlling the supplier was a better way, but if criminals continue to feed off drugs, and others commit crime to buy them, we must think of better ways.
How many would agree with legalizing drugs? very few in my view.

Dear Belly,

The percentage of people who agree with a position has little to do with whether it is right or not.

This is the argument you repeat over and over. Rather than state a case you write: "How many would agree with legalizing drugs? very few in my view."

I am quite aware that it is a minority view. If it were a majority view and it was not the right thing to do it would still not be the right thing to do.

Polls at this moment appear to show that most people would prefer the Coalition in power which would mean Abbott as prime minister. Since you go by what most people want why don't you want the Coalition in power?

To paraphrase your words. "How many would agree with keeping a Labor government? very few in my view."

I am one of the few. I want to keep a Labor government and to legalise drugs.

fatherless boys and men make up the vast majority of the prison system. Pouring more money into useless rehabilitation programs of which their has been hundreds is a complete waste. The issue won't improve because we are to idiotic to ask the right questions. The increase in crime and prison population is simply as a result of the breakdown of the natural family unit. Anyone interested in fact knows that but pc will not allow the issue to be addressed. To many feminist would lose their Government paid jobs.

I wish against my principles that that those who are against punishing criminals would be targeted just to get their eyes opened & their minds broadened.
These people are an insult to those of us who have experienced crime on a very personal level.
When you lose thousands of Dollars worth of belongings, had some low life going through your drawers, taking mementos from your family, stole & wrecked your car etc. & then some do-gooder morons want these crapheads treated & mollycoddled ? Come on ! you're no better than the crapheads.

Hi SWLiddle & welcome to the forum.

I'm afraid I could not disagree with you more. I think it is obvious that the increase in prison population is a product of too much leaning toward the carrot, & not enough stick. This approach has led criminals to expect very minor punishment for their crimes, hence an escalation in their criminal activity has forced increased incarceration, as a last resort.

It is totally ridiculous that 67 break & enters by a local young criminal could be treated as a first offence for sentencing purposes, but this is what we see. A much earlier application of a heavy penalty in these cases would have more effect than bleeding all over them in some wrist tapping effort. That he was after money to service a drug habit should bring a heavier sentence.

Prison should be such a nasty experience that no one in their right mind would indulge in behavior that would result in a return.

As for druggies, the book should be thrown at them at the first instance, & long sentences to work gangs in national parks, with real hard labour would give much better results in every way.

I have long said that prison is a place for criminal only and, should be something in the order of a hole in the ground, the worse the crime, the deeper the hole.

I provided meat for a prison when had one of my butcher shops.

What amazed me was the white board, and the fact that there were so many special requirements for certain inmates.

No dairy, gluten free, no seafood etc, I thought, what a joke, it's a prison for christs sake.

Then I looked at some of the inmates, as the worst offenders worked in the kitchen, I even got to know a few on a semi personal level.

I came to the conclusion that some looked very nasty, while others most likely got pissed and did something stupid. It was quite a shock to learn just how many were there as an indirect result of separation and child support that comes from it.

On tuesday last I spoke with some young indigenous boys & asked them why the keep on breaking the Law when they know they can end up in jail. Their unanimous answer was & with undeniable glee in their expression "Yeah we'll get sent to Lotus Glen". Lotus Glen is the jail in the Atherton tablelands. These boys told me that it is an honour to be able to proof that you have been to Lotus Glen. They told me that you get everything from good food, to exercise, to education & money when you leave. The only thing missing is punishment.
Now go figure why the crime rate in indigenous communities is on the rise.

Dave makes a good deal of sense with a couple of his comments; "alcohol is legal and other drugs are illegal". We need to take the drug issue in perspective. Alcohol is by far and away the biggest cause of social problems that relates to drugs, the costs to society caused by alcohol is enormous. Prohibition, as proved in America in the 1920's is not the answer, if people do not believe they are not doing anything wrong they just go ahead and do it.
The other point Dave made was; "ANZ was getting rid of many employees and outsourcing jobs to other countries." Both big and small business fail to realise that like individuals they too have a social responsibility to society, too often business fails in this regard, believing their responsibility stops at the bottom line. If we accept the totally free enterprise argument then we are going to have a very poor society indeed. With a dog eat dog mentality, workers in powerful industries justifiably could hold society to ransom to get their way and so on. A few would benefit, while the majority would suffer.

I wonder at some postings.

Eg. “As for druggies, the book should be thrown at them at the first instance, & long sentences to work gangs in national parks, with real hard labour would give much better results in every way.”

I have not experienced the hopelessness which can lead to drug abuse. Drug use is a medical rather than criminal problem. There is no more justification for throwing the book at druggies than there is in throwing the book at an alcoholic. Throwing the book at druggies would only benefit those who make money building and guarding prisons.

Another post:

“On tuesday last I spoke with some young indigenous boys & asked them why the keep on breaking the Law when they know they can end up in jail. Their unanimous answer was & with undeniable glee in their expression "Yeah we'll get sent to Lotus Glen". Lotus Glen is the jail in the Atherton tablelands. These boys told me that it is an honour to be able to proof that you have been to Lotus Glen. They told me that you get everything from good food, to exercise, to education & money when you leave. The only thing missing is punishment. Now go figure why the crime rate in indigenous communities is on the rise.”

I wouldn’t want to be in any jail regardless of food and other amenities. Jail is jail, and you have to stay there. The lives of some young indigenous boys are so impoverished and their educational opportunities are so limited that jail looks good by comparison. Rather than worry that jails are too good there may be more point in investigating why their lives are so bad.

It might help to consider some of the causes of crime – poverty, lack of opportunity and other flaws in society. It might also help to stop considering moral failures as crimes.

Some posters prefer to make things tougher on those convicted of crimes rather than consider the cause of the crimes and whether there should be so many activities considered crimes.

too often business fails in this regard,
Paul 1405,
In Qld the previous Labor Government has caused a lot of that & now we're still waiting if Can do Campbell can actually do something to repair that damage..

I wouldn’t want to be in any jail regardless of food and other amenities.
david f,
neither would I but those young mis-led see it differently. They know they CAN GET AWAY WITH IT because of the idiotic system that focuses on persecuting victims & mollycoddling the offenders. I can only put it down to some perverse sense of satisfaction by magistrates to make such rulings. In our community the local paper is not permitted to print court news because it offends the families of the offenders.

That's the way david f, you'll get us lots more criminals with that approach. Nothing like encouraging them with nice warm beds play stations & TV.

I don't give a damn why some yobo has broken into my house, I just want him stopped from doing it again.

Meanwhile we have national parks full of vermin, weeds, & fire prone litter. It makes sense to cure both problems with the one stroke, & meanwhile the victim, & there victims remember, get a little compensation for loosing their possessions.

Until we can get rid these fool ideas of looking after the criminal, rather than the victim, we will just get more criminals, & dodgy TV sets down the pub will get cheaper.

Oh, & remember you did ask. If you don't like the answers, just perhaps you, & not the responders, are wrong.

Dear individual,

It is not mollycoddling to educate prisoners. It gives them a greater ability to make a living when they get out of jail. This makes it less likely that they will be back. If there were adequate educational facilities where they lived the young Aborigines could get educated without going to jail.

Giving adequate food and medical care along with a chance for education is treating prisoners as human beings not mollycoddling.

The best prison is still a prison. I see nothing wrong with treating prisoners well and helping them to be better equipped for life outside of prison.

I see nothing wrong with treating prisoners well and helping them to be better equipped for life outside of prison.
david f,
it doesn't work, how much more proof do you require before you can see that ?
I & most sane people would much rather spend the available funding to compensate the victims rather than yes, mollycoddle the offenders. Prison is not prison for these people. Why not ? Because prison is not punishment ! Only via punishment will any living thing learn not to repeat something that ends up hurting them. By educating them without punishment you're actually telling them that they won't have to behave because they get everything except punishment.

Harsh treatment of prisoners is balm for the self-righteous. However, it does nothing about the causes of crime.

Some prisoners however one treats them are a danger to society if they are on the loose. Harsh treatment will not make them less of a danger to society. They should be kept locked up.

However, those who may be able to make a better life for themselves if they get help should get that help.

There is no excuse for brutality to prisoners or anybody else. Treat everyone as you would be treated.

no excuse for brutality to prisoners or anybody else.
david f,
this is just typical do-gooder divert from the real issue talk. No-one's said anything about brutality here, you're the first one to bring it up. We're talking about getting punished for doing deliberately & wilfully wrong. To sit in a cell for most of the day without TV, without computer access & without gym equipment is punishment.
As for 'those who may be able to make a better life for themselves' they themselves will tell you that they don't need help, they'll just behave themselves after they get released. They'll tell you they don't need special treatment .
Those who re-offend will always re-offend no matter how comfortable you make it for them.
People with your mentality are the cause of most criminal behaviour, you constantly excuse bad behaviour thereby enhancing bad behaviour. Your do-gooder mentality is doing more harm than if you left the crims to do their thing. I know you mean well but as the old adage goes, bad things happen when good people do nothing. A person causing wilful damage, or loss of property or even bodily harm NEEDS to be punished for their own good as well not just to get justice.

Dear individual,

Nobody needs to be punished for their own good.

david f,
Well, let's see how you change your tune after you've been ransacked or assaulted & the craphead who did it will ask you to be so kind to him as you're presently within your ignorance.

I am unsure I should say this.
Truth however demands I do.
Some comments seem based on memory's of Dictators , not just Hitler but many others.
I tend to side with Hasbeen, in reminding us a willingness to be more interested in perpetrator than victims is not an answer.
Generations of English men have tried new ways to imprison.
But remember how bad some became, and the murders of guards, just so the killer could be hanged for that crime.
Let us include the victims and loved ones in sentencing but for more than a third of prisoners some form of work can be found to fund their time there.
I think we make a rod for our own back when time after time bonds take the place of what should be a prison term.

I recently visited St.Helena, an island near Brisbane, where prisoners were held from 1867 to 1933. It is called St. Helena since the first prisoner was an Aborigine named Napoleon. He was left on the island to forage for himself. He built a boat in three days, took off and was never seen again by the authorities.

Two guides, one dressed and acting like a prisoner and the other as a guard, took us around. It was a fascinating tour. There is a museum and the remains of many buildings on the island. Desperate prisoners have committed suicide. There are two graveyards on the island. One for prisoners and one for the children of guards. Most prisoners in the graves were non-Christian being Aborigines, Chinese or Muslims. However, they all had a Christian burial with a Christian service and a stone cross on the grave. If you decide to go on the tour be prepared to do a lot of walking.

I have been held up twice. Both times it was a frightening experience. My home has also been burgled twice. However, it will not help me a bit if those who did it got a harsh punishment.

I think the chief goal of our justice system should be to decrease the likelihood of further crimes.

The definition of crime varies from one time to another. Striking shearers have been imprisoned on St. Helena for actions which would not now be regarded as a crime. I hope that drug use will not be regarded as a crime in the future.

I hope that drug use will not be regarded as a crime in the future.
david f,
If it's not made a serious crime now in order to stop the production of idiotic, dangerous morons then we will have anarchy in less than two decades. We no have such people in the public service costing us more than we can afford. I want to put a stop to this idiocy & so do all sane people.

Dear individual,

Making the production and sale of alcohol a crime in the US during Prohibition merely increased corruption, encouraged the creation of criminal organisations and produced alcoholics. Now that alcoholic addiction is regarded as a medical problem and the production and sale of alcohol is regulated and monitored for safety it is much less of a problem. Making drugs illegal pursues the same stupid path.

It is folly to repeat an action and expect different results. Drug abuse will continue to be a problem whatever is done. However, treating drugs as a controlled and legal substance is, like ending Prohibition, the sensible way to minimise the problem.

....I wouldn’t want to be in any jail regardless of food and other amenities

So David F, would you still feel that way if you were homeless, or more importantly homeless, hungry and unloved/wanted.

I would also suggest many of them are homeless simply because they are of any financial benefit to the welfare dependent parents. Same goes for some non indigenous as well.

As far as rehabilitation goes, you can't expect to rehabilitate a looser, by surrounding him/her with other losers.

This is why I suggest jail should only be for hard criminals.

It is folly to repeat an action and expect different results.
david f,
that's right so why continue with the softly, softly approach of the past 50 years of it failing so spectacularly ?
We are actually converging onto some common ground here. We know that brutal punishment hasn't deterred many & we also know that the slap on the hand doesn't cut it either so let's find a bit of middle ground & try making the crapheads pay for damage & harm.
I found that slapping a craphead around a little in the cop shop & straight to jail for two months sorted him out. That's for stealing a mobile phone. Ah, yes that wasn't in MollycoddlethecriminalAustralia, it was north of us. The harshest punishment stories I have heard of are from the jail on Daru. They're so incredible that even I find it hard to believe.

Dear rehctub,

I agree with most of your last post. My father used to own a bar - a fairly seedy place. One of the cooks was unreliable - a good cook when he was sober. In Syracuse where we lived it used to get quite cold in the winter. This cook would every fall do something to get into the Onondaga penitentiary. He would get his sentence of six months and report to the penitentiary kitchen. He was warm and had a place for the winter paid by the Onondaga county taxpayers. Probably kept him from falling asleep some night outdoors drunk and freezing to death.

He was not a hardened criminal. He was a loser, but I think it was better to let him spend a winter in the county pen & not freeze to death.

Dear individual,

I think with some people it doesn't matter what approach you take. Whatever you do when they get out they are going to do it again. Since they are human you treat them like human beings. All treating them like sh-t does is to give some people satisfaction. Nothing you do is going to matter so you might as well treat them decently. I had a cousin who was a psychologist and worked for the city of LA. He told me that the cure rate for addicts was less than 5%. It makes sense to legalise drugs. If you do dealers will not make a profit, police will not get payoffs from the dealers, druggies will not have to commit crime to get money for a fix and drugs will be monitored for quality. Not legalising drugs means the trade goes on inside and outside the prisons.

"Bring back Capital Punishment" while ever we have those that advocate a simplistic draconian approach to crime our prisons will be bulging. Crime will continue at an alarming rate. the viscous cycle will continue. Of a population of about 22m about 0.1%, or around 22.000 people are in jail, 70% of prison inmates in Australia have been in jail before, Aboriginals are 14 times more likely to find themselves in prison than non indigenous people and 33% are serving a sentence of less than 2 years. All over the western world the socio-economically disadvantaged will be more likely to find themselves in prison than the general community.
For some, like welfare dependency, jail is part of life, part of the vicious circle. In many cases the answer is prevention not incarceration. Prevention of lesser crime, the 33% and more of inmates and those young people who are on a road to jail, will only be achieved through social equality leading to opportunity, not through some "lock em' up, and throw away the key." approach.

Since they are human you treat them like human beings
david f,
agree but when one human being does wrong to another human being then that human being becomes lesser to the point where the privileges of a good human being are withheld from the not no so good. That's what punishment means & is. The rise in crime in Australia is due to too many factors to look at each individual case . It should be done like with road offences, you're over the limit & you pay with time in the lockup 7& then compensate your victim financially. Now what is fairer than that ?

If a craphead wants to be treated like a human being then the easiest way to achieve that is to behave like a human being & not be a craphead.

Yes, it costs far too much for us, taxpayers, to keep all those jails going. Further, jail only breeds more and more hardened criminals.

What to do?

1. No victim - no crime. Drugs for example are a crime only against oneself. Once not legally a crime, one could obtain their poison cheaply and easily without breaking into other people's homes.

2. Increase fines where possible instead of jail-time.

3. For criminals who do not pose an ongoing risk to others, offer a voluntary exchange of corporal punishment for jail-time.

4. Stop trying to prevent convicted prisoners from committing suicide.

5. Introduce an exile program with one or more third-world countries that are willing to take in criminals for cash. Criminals can then escape jail by signing up to go there. They would have all their assets confiscated to compensate their victims, obtain citizenship of the other country, lose their Australian citizenship and never be allowed to return to Australia.

Yuyutsu, a huge problem with our prison system is the way our prisoners get treated.

I have seen first hand how they are fed, Mon to Sat they had a CHOICE of at least two mains.

They were given a choice, ranging from chicken, beef, pork, lamb, seafood, and each Sunday was roast day, where they had a choice between roast meat (pork, lamb or beef) and roast chicken.

In fact, the roast chicken option was a whole half of a small bird.

This is fact, as I supplied much of the meats to the Woodford prison in country QLD.

Of cause the other thing that amused me, as I have mentioned, was the fact that many were gluten free, or dairy free, even no seafood for some.

My view is that we should take a leaf out of Indonisias prison manual and treat prisoners (only hardened ones) as criminals. Basic food, all get exactly the same, no air conditioning, no TV no pool tables, video games etc.

If they dont like that, DONT DO THE CRIME.

I am afraid that for many, it's become a free ride.

In fact, I know one guy who is trying to get back in as we speak, because one, he won't be homeless and two, he will be fed and three, he won't need money.

Jail in Australia is equivalent to 5 Star accommodation in comparison to what's available to decent, hard working people in poor countries, countries which have been depleted of everything from resources to dignity by outsiders who should be rotting in jail.
Those who want to mollycoddle our crims are in actual fact worse criminals than those whom they constantly excuse. They're nothing but closet criminals without the gonads required to break in & steal. Instead they steal by stealth from all of us by infiltrating the public service.
We really need a referendum on punishment & also trial by Jury. It's the only way to regain some degree of normalcy in Australia. Anyone not born here & causing trouble should be deported back because by remaining here they only use us to build up their resources to eventually hit back at us. Australian born & educated will get intimate experience of the inside of a jail without TV & other goodies.

Yep the main thing wrong with our society today is that the ideas of people like SWLiddle & Paul1405, have held sway for far too long. It is an experiment that has proven a failure, & should have been stopped years ago.

We need to come down on first offenders like a ton of bricks, which in many cases would mean no second offence. Hard labour in work gangs just may sort out a lot of young fools, where taps on the wrist, & dumb psychologists bleeding all over them, just makes them laugh at the system.

I often laugh at us proposing to teach Indonesians. What we need is a few Indonesian jail governors down here showing our lot the right way to treat criminals.

I agree whole-heartedly with Hasbeen,
I have first hand experience witnessing how Police deal with the first-time crooks. A good slapping but not harsh, just sufficient to let it sink in what's lurking around the corner if they play up again. I really wished we had some Indonesian Police doing courses in Australia.
I have witnessed a lot of common sense up there amongst Police. No cruelty or excess force at all. I have made friends with people in Intel & you can take my word for it they have common sense & a sense of right & wrong. They're not bound by idiotic libertarians like here who are quite stumm when innocent people get persecuted but criminals get all the assistance money can buy. Our system is just so rotten. I once rang Terry O'Gorman's office of the Civil Libertarians in Qld to ask what assistance I could ask for. The bloke on the phone said quote "Mate, you should contact a Lawyer, we're batting for the other team" unquote. How nice !

Dear Rehctub,

<<They were given a choice, ranging from chicken, beef, pork, lamb, seafood, and each Sunday was roast day, where they had a choice between roast meat (pork, lamb or beef) and roast chicken.>>

That's a description from hell! Totally disgusting - no wonder they come out hardened criminals than ever!

As a vegetarian, I would rather starve to death than have anything with dead-animal ingredients enter my mouth.

<<Of cause the other thing that amused me, as I have mentioned, was the fact that many were gluten free, or dairy free, even no seafood for some.>>

Apart from being vegetarian, my body is also intolerant of gluten and dairy - they make it sick, so any stay in jail for me means a death sentence.

Not everyone who gets in jail is a criminal, certainly not a hardened criminal: some get there for dreaming behind the wheel, others for conscientiously defying the state and its laws (we had for example journalists who refused to disclose their source of information, young men who refused to go to Vietnam and kill others, old men who euthanased their beloved ill wife to stop her suffering, then let us not forget Assange and Snowden and the list get longer), others get in jail by being implicated or simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, yet others get there to cover for family members.

Dear Individual,

<<Jail in Australia is equivalent to 5 Star accommodation>>

From what I know, jail in Australia is worse than in most countries. Australian prisoners are not allowed to keep any personal items, no books and educational materials, not their own toothbrush, clothing, or teddy-bear, memoirs, photos or musical instrument, practically nothing. Their visitors are searched and not allowed to bring anything in, so they are never allowed to eat Mom's birthday cake when she visits. In most other countries they can. Even terrorists in Israeli jails study and receive university degrees in correspondence. In most countries, past a certain portion of their sentence well-behaved prisoners get some weekend leaves - not in Australia.

Jail in Australia is equivalent to 5 Star accommodation.....
Yuyutsu,
and what of the rest the rest ? And yes in comparison to other jails australian jails ARE 5 Star.
i.e. they're hardly a deterrent for an evil mind. Yes i do agree that many prisoners aren't of bad character & are in jail because of a moment's inattention but that's either injustice or flawed justice & has nothing to do with the standard of prison facilities,
it amazes me to see here on OLO how many don't bother the slightest about the victims & that's an indictment on our society as a whole when all effort is collected to aid the offender whilst the victim is forgotten.
If a bloke has an accident & kills someone he gets hounded to the end whilst a crime who wilfully murders gets a few years in a prison which has more facilities than the average home .Do-gooders do make me sick at times.

Hi Indiviual,

Very interesting discussions here.

Surely it is better for somebody to be training for a job than to be getting paid to sit on their freckle watching 'Days of Our Lives?'

If so, the same for prisoners: how about this crazy idea ?

Step One: Provide more or less the bare minimum of comforts for prisoners. Whatever their sentence may be, that's it, no time-off - IF they just want to do their time and get back to thieving or whatever, they do their full time.

BUT if they agree to enrol a genuine course of study or training, then they can get, say, a third of their time off, WHEN they have completed it.

For example, some bloke goes in for three years for 250 cases of burglary (I had a friend with about that many, now deceased). IF he enrols - and completes - a wo-year course, a genuine course, or trade, then he's out. Trained for something else.

Step Two: If they commit more ofences, they get an increased sentence - say, four and a half years for similar offences, i.e. another 250 burglaries. Okay - they are offered the chance to do a three-year degree, and if they comlete that, they're out gin. Better trained.

And so on. Bare conditions. Increased sentences for repeat offenses. Discounted sentences IF the offenders COMPLETE training programs. Genuine programs. Useful programs.

A bit like the Generation One approach - find the jobs, train the people for them.

I'm especially interested in your response to that crazy scheme.

Cheers,

Joe

PS. Yeah, that friend was hooked on heroin and needed his thousand bucks a day. One time, he was burgling a place and found fifty thouand dollars in a drawer. I said to him when he told me, much later, 'Christ, you got out of there, didn't you ?' 'No,' he said, 'I took the money.' Brave man.

Dear Individual,

Australian jails may perhaps hardly be a deterrent for an evil mind, but they are a constant source of anxiety and even horror for ordinary good citizens.

I agree that most of the jail-population is criminal, but imprisonment is something that could happen to any of us, including you and me, even while we are at no true fault.

Whence this straw-man claim as if those who advocate more humane jail conditions don't bother the slightest about the victims?

Often there are no victims in the first place. More often, the victims themselves are criminals and having accepted that lifestyle do not deserve police-protection in the first place. Even when there are victims, most of them do not benefit one iota from the perpetrator's jail-sentence (in fact they too pay higher taxes to keep him there). For some it's too late while others could benefit so much more for example if they knew that the perpetrator is out of the country and may never return to Australia to haunt them, or if they knew that the perpetrator is writhing in pain after receiving such a good hiding that they'll never contemplate repeating the offence, perhaps even no longer physically able to perform that offence as a result. Better still, the victims may benefit most if the perpetrator slaved away for the rest of their life to compensate them financially or render them other services.

My concern is primarily for the percentage of the jail-population who are not guilty. As there is no absolute sure-proof way to separate them from the criminals, I rather err on their side. You too will thank this attitude if, God-forbid, you happen to fall in that place yourself.

The harshness of Australian jails is not worth the nightmares of Australian children who grow-up fearing they would be taken there one day.

Dear Loudmouth,

The answer to your burglar friend, is to be able to buy his heroin cheaply in his local pharmacy, then he wouldn't have to break into our houses and also then, he would sooner be leaving this world for good.

Yuyutsu,

A bit late for that now, I'm afraid :(

Dear Joe,

<<A bit late for that now, I'm afraid :(>>

It is unfortunate but understandable that we can have friends who fall to drugs, but I, nay probably the rest of us here, am curious and interested to learn from your first-hand experience how it happens and what are the feelings involved, to befriend a burglar, someone who made so many families miserable, shaken and scarred for life. If you don't mind telling us.

He was a really nice bloke, actually, once he'd given it all up.

Well, almost: he ODd a couple of years ago. So he was his own biggest tragedy.

I wonder if drugs are at epidemic proportions n most country towns, especially for Aboriginal people. They seem to cause so much dreadful damage to so many lives, every week, every day.

Has anybody done any reearch into what component of the abridgement of Indigenous life expectancy can be attributed to drugs ? An average of ten years ? Fifteen ?

Joe

My idea of combating crime is to nip it in the butt by not giving people the chance to be bad in the first place. Nr 1 step & may I point out a proven step at that is exposure to discipline.
As just about 99.9 % of young peoples' mentality is influenced by what is going on around them in their environment we can't expect them to develop a sense of discipline & responsibility when it is not on display for them to appreciate & absorb.
We really need many changes from education to entertainment. Target TV programmers, target violent video game producers, target violent toy manufacturers the list is long. By "target" I mean for parents & others not to purchase these nonsensical items. The moment the sales drop they'll change their product. If some do-gooder academic objects give them a whack in their stupid snout & tell them to butt out.
Stop taking children to such idiotic events as Ape-ball or as it is better known Foot ball. The Nr 1 factor in the rise of violence is the insane & incessant promoting of competition. Competition has no place in social development of very young children. Interaction & joy is what's missing in their poor little lives & that's why so many are lost by their teenage years.
Callous adults could be exposed & taxed to the hilt for their blatant exploitation which results in so much dissatisfaction & sadness in young peoples' lives & indoctrinates them away from decency.
A non-military national service is the only alternative in my experience. Perhaps youth camps could be established for adventurous social interaction & gaining a sense of belonging & self-worth.

Indigenous life expectancy can be attributed to drugs ? An average of ten years ? Fifteen ?
Loudmouth,
There's no data on what the life expectancy was before european arrival but we do know that the european life expectancy was at least 30 years shorter than it is now. From my experience indigenous life expectancy is in line with their life style drugs or no drugs just like any other race.
I would like to live a better life too but our authorities constantly interfere with my attempts to achieve that.

Hi Individual,

I found this fantastic article right on that topic, last year:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/10/10/1215627109.full.pdf

From the article, you can identify life expectancies for people in hunter-gatherer societies generally, those ex-hunter-gatherers who are condemned to live in life-long welfare, "fringe-dwellers" if you like, and those who have successfully made the effort to integrate themselves in modern societies.

As well, one can discern differences in life expectancies in peasant societies (i.e. Poirot's idyllic, pre-capitalist life-style), early industrialised societies and today's industrialised societies.

As the article says, there has been a stunningly linear improvement in lfe expectancy since about the 1840s in Britain, at about three months for every year.

Now that's what you call 'useful research'.

Regards,

Joe

There may be some criminals whose sentences are too long. but there are many cases where the lengths of the sentences are manifestly too short. The recent examples of violent men committing rapes and murders, while on parole is unacceptable in a supposedly civilized society.
It appears likely that by conforming to prison rules and behaving well, these men have out-smarted the system, and been released when they should not have.
My remedy for this state of affairs is to make the 'protection of the public' the prime consideration in sentencing criminals under our criminal justice systems, if necessary by an amendment to the Constitution.

third try,
I totally agree with you. We need to get rid of Magistrates & have trial by Jury only with a victim or a relative of a victim being part of it.
This bail business is yet another shonky show. We have a an 100% proven assault offender who is out on bail. Why is that craphead not in jail awaiting his trial ? Perhaps if bail was a defence lawyer sitting in jail as a guarantor instead of paying money more offenders would stay in jail upon arrest, we would get some quicker results. Too much benefit of the doubt is afforded to the offender & none to the victim.
Again, a national referendum is needed on sentencing & the length of sentencing. Also compensation must be introduce asap.