Sorry, Antiseptic, I was waiting for you to write something sensible. Fat chance, I suppose.

When you assert that "Afghan women need our help because Afghan men hate Afghan women", I can't say that I would see the issue in that rather crude way. But if that is the only way you can frame the issue, that really is your problem.

To reiterate:

* al-Qaida organised the destruction of the twin towers etc. from safe havens in Afghanistan;

Yes ? No ?

* the US had the right under international law to invade Afghanistan, bomb the daylights out of the Taliban and overthrow that regime, in order to neutralise the influence of al-Qaida;

* having done so, if somewhat imperfectly, they found themselves obliged to defend the rights of Afghan women to lift their heads - sorry about that - and to do things like go to school, take jobs, go outside the house, not to have to wear the burqa, etc. Terrible, I know, so anti-cultural, but there you go. US b@stards.

Equal rights may upset reactionaries around the world, and their fellow-travellers - in time, you and they may be proven right there - but right or wrong, the US and others find themselves having to defend human rights in unlikely places.

Yes, yes, this is appalling - cultures are good, and need to be left alone, as well as male dominance - and women, after all, should know their place, where many have been perfectly happy for thousands of years. Who are we to talk about 'rights' - such a bourgeois concept, only appropriate for soy-latte-sippers in Carlton and Leichhardt. Who are we to impose our modern values on people with thousands of years of rigidly unchanging, backward culture ?

Honestly, sarcasm aside, I really don't give a fat rat's about culture if its maintenance requires the oppression or submission or enslavement of anybody, let along half the bloody population.

Down with culture !

Joe

The thing is Joe that the people who want the culture to remain as is really do have the power to make it happen, even when the force of the US is there.

How long do you think it will take before there is wholesale massacre in Aghanistan after the US/UN has had enough?

My Dad's favourite saying was "If wishes were horses then beggars would ride." and wishing the Afghani fiefdoms into a cohesive Westernised whole just ain't gonna make it so and more than it did for the beggars.

Let the Western influence permeate by osmosis and contact with the West. Make it a profitable thing to do. The people will take it up over time if they want to and there will be minimal disruption. By all means work to keep the taliban out. By all means spread influence through trade. But don't go too far in trying to push the structures around or there'll be a backlash.

Hi Antiseptic,

Perhaps you're right, that the notions of equality of men and women and the rule of law are as you suggest, strictly for Westerners only, not for lesser beings, although I can't see it that way, I'm sorry.

But being on the Left, whether I like it not, I just can't come at the uncritical worship of "the people who want the culture to remain as is". When I was younger and knew everything, I considered such an attitude contemptible, merely a defence of reaction and conservatism.

But thanks to your wisdom, now I know better, that the Left should defend reactionaries wherever they find them as long as they are anti-US. I have to admit that it's been a difficult lesson to lean.

But thank you for putting me on the 'right' path.

Joe

PS. But I really can't come at it, sarcasm aside. What's the point of having any concern for oppressed people anywhere if, for example, we have to defend crap like the Taliban ? In the name of 'culture' ?

I wonder if anthropology is the ultimate, reactionary 'science', a body of bullsh!t that always defends the status quo, just to earn its bread and butter. Just asking.

Joe, Joe, Joe. So much passive-aggression.

To "win" the argument, all you have to do is show me why I'm wrong. Show me that the US presence has lead to ewer women being killed than were killed before the US invasion. show me that the Afghan tribes will willingly accept women being educated to a higher standard than men, or at least will not react by killing every such woman they can find. Show me that the women and men of Afghanistan who are happy in their traditional lifestyle are going to be better off if some women in Kabul are fmeinists. Show me that a feminist model has been successful in raising the societal happiness anywhere it has been tried, then show me how it will do so in Afghanistan.

Because having little snarky, sarcy snipes is only showing me that you're prone to having a sulk when things don't go your way.

You seem convinced I'm completely wrong, so go to it. I'm all ears.

Joe, that was unfair, I apologise.

The thing is I understand what you're saying perfectly well and I agree with the sentiments, but I've simply become fed up with emotionality informing policy to the detriment of all.

An essential aspect of wisdom is the ability to judge how best to act, in light of all the factors. I'm simply pointing out that in some cases that means choosing not to act at all.

Thank you, Antiseptic.

When you write,

" .... all you have to do is show me why I'm wrong. Show me that the US presence has lead to ewer women being killed than were killed before the US invasion. show me that the Afghan tribes will willingly accept women being educated to a higher standard than men, or at least will not react by killing every such woman they can find."

I don't HAVE to do anything of the sort. I'm assuming that - as women lift their heads - they will certainly be risking their lives MORE than before, given such a reactionary society.

But I can't help comparing their situation to that of the slaves in the Satanic US, 150 and more years ago - should they have risked fleeing north via the Underground, or should they have remained in the south, 'perfectly happy with their lot ?'

Perhaps there is still the remnant of Marxist revolution in me that I have a belief that, in order to be liberated, or gain standard human rights, however you may like to pitch it, people may have to risk their lives. I just hope that the US and other Western powers in Afghanistan don't simply pack up and desert the women of that culturally-blighted country.

So where will the Left stand, given its infinite variety, once the Coalition forces leave Afghanistan ? Alongside the reactionaries - or will they take to the streets, put away their 'gay marriage now!' and 'stop cattle exports now!' banners and paint new ones in support of those millions of women who dare to stand up ?

Your choice. Our choice. Everybody's choice, if we dare to suggest we care.

Joe