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The Forum > General Discussion > Julia Gillard: - Affirmative action that failed.

Julia Gillard: - Affirmative action that failed.

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"While history will record that Julia Gillard was the nation's first female prime minister, it should also record that she was the first quota PM. Gillard will never escape how she came to her job. Labor's 40 per cent gender quota system put Gillard in parliament and her gender helped elevate her to the position of Prime Minister. Alas, her male backers could not have been more wrong to assume that gender would be an ace card with voters in a contest against Tony Abbott. Voters don't give a toss about gender. And when the PM plays the gender card, she reminds voters that merit took a back seat in her career trajectory."

The question for Labor in the future is whether the next leaders will be appointed on merit and not on gender or factional loyalty. The pre selection battle in Batman is not a good indicator.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 8:48:38 AM
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Well *Shadow* you must be getting excited at the thought of more people and children Asylum Seekers to lock up ey? It seems clear that your kind take perverse pleasure in such actions.

And, I think that in the absence of reasonable and rationale debate on this issue generally, there are a few corrections which need to be made.

1. Asylum Seekers may come howsoever they are able. In that regard, it is an international crime to impede their attempts to do so, as it was when Australians voted via referendum to settle the Jews in W.A. pre during the early stages of WWII but which was subsequently overturned by the genocidal crown. Do you know your history or indeed are you little more than a propaganda parrot?

2. Individuals who assist Asylum Seekers in an appropriate way are not people smugglers.

4. What the majority of Australians appear to want is for the slime in Canberra to withdraw us as a nation, like Indonesia and Malaysia, from being a signatory to the convention.

Then you can do as you please by making appropriate repugnant legislation to turn around the boats and lock up people without charge or trial for indefinite periods in circumstances known to produce adverse medical outcomes in a "lawful" manner (or at least lawful pursuant to the tin pot law of the ill begotten spawn of the transplanted genocidal pom)just as has been done in the past when it came to stealing children from the Original Australians or having Rock Spider Church nuns steal babies from unwed mothers in the hospitals.

But of course, we all know that your kinds duplicity knows no bounds and that you are too gutless to have the courage of your convictions.
Posted by DreamOn, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 11:29:00 PM
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Thatcher proved that promoting people on merit works very well. The Emily's listers have proved to be absolutely atrocious.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 11:37:49 PM
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Otherwise:

1. ChristMass island is clearly in Indonesian territory so why not just give it back? It would make for good relations in the "Asian Century" would it not?

And do anyone spare me the party line about historical claims made by genocidal slavers. What exactly did Gonski say about teaching the factual history of this country and not just the perverted lies of the military victors? I don't know as I haven't wasted my time reading it as yet.

2. Instead of allowing AUSAID funds to be pillaged by corruption (by our standards at least) why not use them to teach the Indos how to make their vessels more sea worthy?

As for Gillard, by all means metaphorically bury the hag, and then we'll start on the left overs from the pedophile church.

Whilst I am still fond of some Greens their weakness has become sickening. They should consent to a no confidence motion on any guvment who predicates national security on the need to abuse people, let alone children.

In that regard, the military brass should be stood before the honored dead for summary judgment and execution. Wars of Freedom were not fought to allow scum like those in the majority in Canberra to harm children.

How the Taliban must tremble in their boots. Here come the guys who abuse little children. Still, we are going to give them what they want aren't "we?" A war without end, fuelled by their own hatred, just as they have in Iraq and Syria. It attracts the fighters doesn't it, both mercenary and fundamentalist alike, and as long as the Muslims are fighting each other, they are less of a threat to "us" aren't they? And of course, "we'll" be keeping a close "eye" on things wont "we" just to make sure no side gets too on top of the other, and to ensure that nothing too nasty in the way of military hardware gets into the "wrong" hands.
Posted by DreamOn, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 11:38:47 PM
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Dreamon,

While I applaud your attempt to divert the thread, and while I would like to compare the 4 inmates under Howard in 2007 to the thousands now under Labor, the issue is about Juliar Gillard being promoted beyond her competence.

I hope this convinces Labor to promote on merit rather than factional allegiance or gender. (even if labor is very thin on the ground)
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 June 2013 9:09:20 AM
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Kevin 07 was an incompetent administrator and the ALP was losing ground fast when he was replaced.

I doubt is anyone in either party could have done a significantly better job than Julia Gillard in the hung parliament situation.

While the economy appears to be teetering at the moment the main reason for that is the idiotic idea of aiming for a budget surplus, a idea promoted by Abbott and Hockey to wedge the Gillard Government.

Few of those who comment on OLO appear to understand the real constraints on a government that is in control of a fiat currency. That governments first task is to ensure demand is adequate to utilise the available resources efficiently.

We might as a community decide that we need to consume less and have more holidays away from the village pump but what resources are available should be employed. If the economy is growing it needs more money to operate and the only sensible way to put that money into circulation is for the government to spend it, either on better infrastructure or more social payments. The alternative is more private debt; the Costello way, a sure-fire way of causing private problems, particularly for the coming generation.

A budget surplus for a sovereign (currency issuing ) government should only occur when the economy is booming and therefore tax collections are also booming and social security outlays are at a minimum. The surplus is then largely an accident which will slow the boom.

With Abbott and Hockey, austerity policies will bring on a recession or a collapse as Howard's ignoring of the need for better financial regulation did not long after the Rudd government came to power.

In the second half of 1998, the then Governor of the Reserve Bank, Ian Macfarlane, started to warn Howard and world finance authorities of the need for stronger regulation. On 18 February 2000, despite the comments by the G7, Howard stated he was, "Not for turning" to use a phrase from another neo-liberal.
Posted by Foyle, Thursday, 6 June 2013 10:06:36 AM
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So every time a woman is given a role it is affirmative action. In the case of Julia Gillard that is bunkum. She was clearly the best and most obvious candidate at the time.

Don't blame affirmative action in this case. I don't believe it had anything to do with it.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 6 June 2013 10:11:11 AM
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Pelican,

Not every time a woman gets a role is it affirmative action, but is is on the record that it was involved in Juliar's pre selection and cabinet position.

http://www.emilyslist.org.au/our-women/emilys-list-australia-current-members-of-parliament

There is a list of women helped into parliament by affirmative action. (note liberals are not included) "Nearly 20 years after Labor backed affirmative action for preselections, Gillard appears prominently on the EMILY's List website, declaring: "Affirmative-action targets made the Labor Party look around and canvass for women candidates.""

Juliar almost certainly would not have got pre selection, or have risen as quickly had she not been a woman. That she was involved with the unions (all be it in a dubious fashion) was another help.

That Juliar's leadership of the government is wall to wall policy failures and examples of poor judgement would indicate that if she was the best for the job, Labor's incompetence is boundless.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:14:48 AM
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Shadow Minister gives us a quote from The Australian
newspaper, written by Janet Albrechtsen (no surprises
there) espousing as always the conservative point of
view.

So, just to keep things balanced the following link is
from The Sydney Morning Herald, written by Anne Summers:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/judgement-of-history-will-be-kinder-to-pm-than-tv-news-cycle-20130321-2girw.html

Anne Summers asks the question - of who do we remember as the
"perfect Prime Minister?" She states that - Gough Whitlam
is now a revered person - yet she remembers the horror of
1975, Malcolm Fraser is now an out and out leftie yet she
was in Canberra in the late 1970s when Fraser was seen as a
chaotic and divisive figure. She suggests that perhaps even
John Howard will eventually become beloved...

Summers explains that Gillard has been "unlucky enough to have
stepped up to the job under two unprecedented circumstances;
the hung parliament and the 24 hour news cycle. The absence of
parliamentary majorities is a fact of life in the US Congress
and most European parliaments. But as Summers says, "for us
it is new (at the federal level) and it means that virtually
every action the government wants to take must be
negotiated. This is portrayed as a negative - "the PM was
forced to..." Rather than as an example of the skilled
exercise of governance."

The PM has had amazing things thrown at her from Rudd's
challenge to Simon Crean's - and she's stood up to both
successfully - making them look ridiculous.

And of course Gillard's toughness and coolness under intense
pressure is an asset as Summers states, "that all Australians
of all stripes should appreciate. It's what we need in a
leader - a person who's not prone to panic."

" Being a tough female PM makes
Julia Gillard a unique target - but what has been shown is
that no matter what's been thrown at her, she stands firm.
Many might find this unpalatable especially as it contradicts
their stereotyped notion of how a woman should behave - but
my guess is that the judgement of history will be different."
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:20:41 AM
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dear oh dear I wonder how many more excuses the sisterhood can dream up to defend the current Emily's listers atrocious performance. They have proven to be totally out of their depth. Full of rhetoric and totally lacking in competence. Garrett and Conroy and a list of Immigration Ministers fit the outfit well.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:30:57 AM
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DreamOn - Instead of hijack this thread start up your own and see if you can stand the heat when your arguments for economic refugees are shot down.
Posted by Philip S, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:43:41 AM
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As Summers points out in the link I cited earlier:

"For Julia Gillard the judgements are so harsh they
border on the demonic."
(Read runner's post).
Never has there been a more incompetent and unreliable
leader, we're told. Yet as Summers says, " this week
marks Gillard's 1000 days as PM. She will soon have served
longer than Whitlam."

No mention is made of the impressive legislative track record
of this government.

However as Summers explained:

"The trouble is Australians are not used to such toughness
in a woman and there are plenty who feel uncomrtable with it.
Gillard's toughness and coolness under intense pressure is
an asset that all Australians of all stripes should
appreciate. It's what we need in a leader - a person who's
not prone to panic... no matter what's been thrown at her,
she stands firm. Many find this unpalatable especially as
it contradicts their stereotyped notion of how women should
behave..."

And as Summers sums up - "My guess is that the judgement of
history will be different."

BTW: As Dennis Pryor pointed out ages ago
concerning women in politics:

"Under the guise of "useful experience" women are
given every opportunity to stand for unwinnable seats
in elections. Those who get into Parliament find it
difficult to become Ministers or to get into Cabinet.
In spite of incessant rhetoric about equal opportunity
the mass of male Parliamentarians find it difficult
to equate women with positions of power..."
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:54:20 AM
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....2 2. Individuals who assist Asylum Seekers in an appropriate way are not people smugglers.

Dream on, they are not helping people, they are CHARGING THEM and that is why they are illegal people smugglers.

On the subject of asylum seekers, perhaps you could start a foundation, that opens their homes for these people, whereby YOU and your fellow do-gooders are financially responsible for their needs.

This way, you lot can feel all warm and fuzzy, and the rest of us can enjoy the benefits of our taxes, you know, as WAS INTENDED.

There is no crime in wanting to help, the crime is in wanting to spend OUR MONEY to do so.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:57:35 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong please but I thought you declared yourself a person seeking asylum before you actually arrived to surprise the system.
Why not simply present yourself at the nearest Australian Embassy or Consulate and claim asylum there and then?
Apart from all that I was under the misguided belief that it was a crime under the Crimes Act to land in Australia without official permission and due process.
Julia is a "petunia in a pumpkin patch"
Somebody should ask Don Dunstan about the "Good old Days" if the bug hasn't killed him already.
Fancy our security services telling Gillard anything of import.
Once a socialist always a socialist and that's only one short step away from a communist. Or has that bridge been crossed?
Posted by chrisgaff1000, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:58:20 AM
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Lexi,

Your airbrushing of history, and that of Anne Summers (who refers only to Labor PMs in glowing terms) pushes the boat out a bit too far. Gough Whitlam is revered it is true, but only by a handful of amnesia sufferers that forgot the huge fiscal mess he left behind.

Also that she "inherited a hung parliament". I recall she came to office with a huge majority and created the hung parliament by cobbling together a collection of turncoats and fringe politicians, and kicked off her PM ship with a stinking great lie.

Whatever her personal properties, her tenure has been a series of disasters.

When Juliar loses office it is unlikely that she will receive a cabinet post, or even be referred to on any issues. I guess that she will be asked to resign, and have to rely on her tarnished record as a lawyer.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 June 2013 12:02:56 PM
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Dear Shadow Minister,

How else can we take you - but seriously.
You who always quotes from a variety of such
well known sources (The Australian, The
Australian, The Australian, Tony Abbott,
Tony Abbott, Tony Abbott...).
You always present multiple points of view
(instead of a biased narrow one).
You see and admit the mistakes of your own
Party - and you do not keep singing from just
the same song book. Of course we believe everything
you say. You're so unbiased, well-informed,
and argue on such an intelligent level.

Keep on posting and impressing us.
Can't wait for your next thread.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 June 2013 12:22:27 PM
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Foyle says "I doubt is anyone in either party could have done a significantly better job than Julia Gillard in the hung parliament situation".

Buddy anyone could have done a better job than this lying fool. All they had to do was not tell a major lie to get into the lodge.

If they had got there legitimately, they would have some chance of taking the population with them.

I had no feeling for Gillard. Nothing, neither good or bad. She had a clean slate to start writing on. She could have been another Maggie for all I knew. In fact I was prepared to warm to anyone who got rid of that walking ego, Rudd.

It her just a few days to loose me, & hundreds of thousands of others with her constant lying & spin.

Just in case yours get damaged, I've got a case of rose colored glasses for sale
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 6 June 2013 12:22:33 PM
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SM
I am hoping this thread does not turn into one of those anti-feminist rampages, but may I add, it may be true that affirmative action helped women win preselection or jobs in certain industries in the early days but it had nothing to do with JG's elevation to PM once she had proved her mettle.

How would women have improved their opportunities without affirmative action in those days? Do you think there would be the number of women in the LNP or ALP without those eary programs? It may have happened eventually without affirmative action, and with a more enlightened society. And with a growing experience of women in these roles (such as GPs). Affirmative action has also played a big part in helping Indigenous Australians get into the workforce and into roles that may have been otherwise closed to them.

How is affirmative action in those days any more advantageous than any gender preferential system such as the entrenched 'old boys networks' and men only professional clubs closed to women. And just the fact that women were seen as not suitable for many roles. The same goes for men who wanted to enter into generally female occupied roles such as nursing or child care etc.

Personally I think affirmative action is no longer needed as regards gender, and many of the arguments for it deny a lot of other factors relating to women and families etc.

Don't get me wrong I don't have a problem with men only or women only clubs in the main it is just in the old days these clubs were the only professional organisations and meant any women who made it into those professions were really on their own. In a free society people can belong to any clubs they want including Emily's List or the Men's sheds - both serve a purpose in encouraging men and women.

As far as being a PM in the 21st Century, it is not about gender but about how well you do your job.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 6 June 2013 12:48:55 PM
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'clubs they want including Emily's List or the Men's sheds '

please Pelican to lump the 2 in one is farcical.One are men haters the other just lonely men getting together for friendship.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:09:21 PM
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*Shadow Minister*

My thanks for your applaud to which I take a bow for the audience. <Clap, Clap, Clap>

Regrettably though, it appears that if nothing else, the huge medical, moral and financial cost of turning children into disability pensioners continues to weigh insufficiently in "your" reckoning and in my view, you are unfit to lead and unfit to apply character tests to others as child abusers are amongst the lowest of the low.

*Lexi*

Your well documented record as an apologist for child abusers is noted, as is the nauseous delight that some people take in duplicitous, unprincipled polite speech, especially when it is used as a veil to cover up for crimes like those committed against children.

*Rehctub & Phillip S*

By all means, bring on your arguments though I suspect you do not yet fully comprehend my grievance. There is much that can be said but this - as the majority of Australians appear not to wish to receive legitimate Asylum Seekers then by all means, as I have said many times, simply withdraw from the convention. Then truly, there is no product to sell.

But do not p_ss on the international conventions at whim because if and when you do, other states in the world will insist on their right to do exactly the same as it suits their whim. You must recognise that the internationals will not stand for double standards.

Thereafter, the nature of the Indonesian system is such that even a "saint" would find it difficult to get people out of the cockroach hotel without paying some people along the way. And no doubt it is not an activity that does not bring with it significant risks, like being blown out of the water by the Indonesian navy.

The obligation of any Asylum Seeker is to safeguard lives and reach safe haven, not to attend the tin pot Australian Embassy in Jakarta and ask for a one way ticket to the cockroach hotel with the very real potential of life time membership.
Posted by DreamOn, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:09:35 PM
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However, no doubt there is a profiteering aspect to it (and organisations like the mafia and others have historically long played this role) but that in and of itself does not make them people smugglers, but rather it appears that some politicians simply do not accept the basic tenets of what seeking Asylum is all about.

And yes, I too am adamantly opposed to the absurd amounts of money being spent on this issue but again, the appropriate course of action is to simply withdraw from the convention entirely and lock people up without barbed wire in the desert around a billabong where none but a traditional BlakFella, Bedouin or camel would have any likelihood of escaping from alive and do food drops as part of ongoing military training of what would otherwise be wasted food and medication. Even with the inclusion of the flying doctor, it could all be easily done at a bare fraction of what these spendthrift fools are currently blowing.

*Pelican*

Perhaps if Abbott's cat calling were made public it would be all too clear as to why he has been labelled a misogynist.

re: the disability scheme, if it is true as one premiere mentioned that 2/3's of the budget is being spent on pencil fiddlers, then I am opposed, and I have a strong interest in supporting one D.S.P.'er, Mrs X, who has need of a bit of support from time to time. The last thing these people need is a big budget being blown on paperwork.
Posted by DreamOn, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:26:30 PM
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Hasbeen
You did not argue many of my main points.

The Big New Tax was a lie was conceived by Abbott. Gillard only moved to a fixed price carbon price as an introductory phase towards having a carbon credits training scheme something which was a Labor Party policy signed up to by Malcolm Turnbull. Abbott then saw a chance to grab power in cahoots with the extreme right of the Liberal Party. There are few considerate and competent "wets" left in the Coalition.

I am rather certain that we will be in for a very rough ride if the Coalition wins power.

I at least have a good grasp of macroeconomics having written to Costello on the subject six months before Ian Macfarlane started to complain than regulation of banks and financial gamblers was far too slack. It was that slackness, particularly in the USA and London that caused the GFC. The Obama administration has rescued the criminals rather than their victims. The Labor Government rescued the Australian banks and the population.

Too many people who do not know enough to know better are deceived by the far right to vote against their own best interests, a comment made years ago by a competent UK politician Denis Healey, I think.
Posted by Foyle, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:38:29 PM
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Corrections to comment posted a few minutes ago.
Hasbeen
You did not argue many of my main points.

The Big New Tax was a lie conceived by Abbott. Gillard only moved to a fixed carbon price scheme as an introductory phase towards having a carbon credits trading scheme something which was a Labor Party policy signed up to by Malcolm Turnbull. That change hardly amounted to an untruth. It was a negotiated settlement made necessary by the hung parliament. Abbott then saw a chance to grab power in cahoots with the extreme right of the Liberal Party. There are few considerate and competent "wets" left in the Coalition.

I am rather certain that we will be in for a very rough ride if the Coalition wins power.

I at least have a good grasp of macroeconomics having written to Costello on the subject six months before Ian Macfarlane started to complain than regulation of banks and financial gamblers was far too slack. It was that slackness, particularly in the USA and London that caused the GFC. The Obama administration has rescued the criminals rather than their victims. The Labor Government rescued the Australian banks and the population.

Too many people who do not know enough to know better are deceived by the far right to vote against their own best interests, a comment made years ago by a competent UK politician Denis Healey, I think.
Posted by Foyle, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:38:29 PM
Posted by Foyle, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:46:03 PM
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Dear Dream On,

Could you please explain your reference to me
and "child abusers," in your earlier post.

Thank you.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:52:55 PM
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Lexi,

What a porkie, my quotes are very deliberately spread over a variety of papers and those from the australian are in the minority. For someone that quotes almost exclusively from the fringe blog "new matilda", this is a little rich. This offering of yours is from someone who is so rusted on labor that she writes almost exclusively Polemics against Abbott and his party.

I am certainly biased, but, you personally are one of the most biased and one eyed posters I have ever seen.

Pelican,

Given affirmative action that put her in the position of power as the deputy leader, and the fanfare and hoopla that surrounded Juliar's ascension as the future first female PM, It is difficult to swallow that her gender had no part in it.

I agree "being a PM in the 21st Century, it is not about gender but about how well you do your job." It certainly should be.

Foyle,

Juliar did not just promise that there would be no carbon tax she gave an iron clad guarantee. Her immediate breaking of this made her statement a lie.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 June 2013 1:55:42 PM
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Sorry
Menshed is exactly what it says a men's shed...where men go for company and get away from their women
Posted by chrisgaff1000, Thursday, 6 June 2013 2:03:14 PM
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Hi there LEXI...

I agree with you totally, nobody could ever accuse Ms Gillard of not being tough ! She has 'toughness' in spades - without question. However, is being tough (gender aside) a necessary ingredient for a competent, successful Prime Minister ?

I've heard many of her critics, describe her as being neither tough, nor strong. Rather they would choose to resort to language such as despotic, dictatorial in style, monocratic ( I'd would've thought that might be more of a style similar to that of Mr Rudd?), even tyrannical with those she doesn't trust ?

So Ms LEXI, I've always admired both your intelligence and your ability to express that intelligence within the limitations of this medium. Therefore my question of you 'with respect', do you really believe Ms Gillard is a competent and able Prime Minister ? Do you also believe she enjoys the total respect, and support from those in her cabinet and caucus ?

Personally, I'll admit unreservedly, she's TOUGH ! But that's all ? Moreover, I believe she'll probably be remembered, not for being Australia's first female Prime Minister. But rather (sadly) the worst Prime Minister in the history of this country !

I'm so sorry LEXI, I don't mean to be offensive toward you, or POIROT, or to any other Labor supporter on this Forum, including my good mate BELLY. However, it's my humble opinion Ms Gillard, in company with Mr Swan and several ors., have played a pivotal roll, within Parliamentary Labor, who've been entirely culpable for nearly bringing this once great country literally to it's knees. By the repeated infusion of unacceptable practices, including evidence of blatant mendacity. Why, I don't know ? But having 'power', is a much more useful instrument in life, than mere money alone!
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 6 June 2013 3:51:43 PM
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If women wanted to they could organise their own political party and have 50% of the seats in parliament and maybe then some, the fact that they don't says something about women and their attitudes toward the job of MP or Senator ie, like most men they don't see it as rewarding or worthwhile work.
The fact is that equal opportunity in state and private sector corporations has only raised the status of women who are megalomaniacs, shysters and psychopaths, in other words it's facilitated the rise to power of women who play a complimentary role to the male megalomaniacs, shysters and psychopaths who occupy the corporate boards and "smoke filled rooms" of politics.
Are women honestly proud of Hillary Clinton or Rebecca Brooks?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 6 June 2013 4:10:09 PM
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I think it is rather sad what is likely to happen to the Labour party
at the election. Democracy requires a well established and indeed
respected opposition able to express the views of people who may not be
their natural supporters.

I think they will recover but it may take a couple or three parliaments
to do the job. The Greens just don't fit the bill as they are driven
by unrealistic ideals.
Posted by Bazz, Thursday, 6 June 2013 5:11:10 PM
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Dear o sung wu,

Historically Julia Gillard's Prime Ministership will be
seen as an unusually active and reforming period in
Australian public policy. Her legislative achievments
will be acknowledged.

I see Julia Gillard's toughness and coolness under intense
pressure as an asset that all Australians of all stripes
should appreciate. It is preciesly what we need in a leader.
A person who's not prone to panic.
The trouble is Australians are not used to such toughness in
a woman and there are plenty who feel uncomfortable with it.

Of course being a tough female Prime Minsiter makes Julia
Gillard a unique target - but what has been shown is that
no matter what's been thrown at her, she stands firm. Many
find this unpalatable, especially as it contradicts their
stereotyped notion of how women should behave.
However the judgement of history as I've stated previously
will be different.

We've heard ad nauseum that "she lied." There is a gulf of
difference between a broken promise in the context of altered
circumstances and a deliberate decision to mislead. As such
to accuse the PM of lying, and to argue that the carbon
pricing scheme is based on a deliberate pre-meditated lie
in itself displays some towering crap. That it has persisted
for so long and spawned the meme "Juliar" (a term used only
by the ignorant and spiteful) says more about Abbott's guile
and ability to manipulate the facts for his own destructive
ends than it does about the PM's trustworthiness.

I don't have anything against Mr Abbott personally. I simply
don't want him as a Prime Minister. To me he represents -
regressive ideas, imparted by divisive scare tactics,
he dog-whistles to extreme right-wing nutjobs and he seeks to
be PM by destruction, in the absence of any policy, reform
agenda or vision. He's a genuine hollowman, reducing
complex issues to inane slogans and negative rhetoric, lowering
the national debate. To me he does not have the character,
maturity, nor integrity to maintain his current position let alone
be allowed to ascend further.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 June 2013 5:46:29 PM
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Historically Juliar's Prime Ministership will be seen as an unusually dishonest and incompetent period in Australian public policy. Her legislative disasters will be acknowledged.

I see Julia Gillard's arrogance and deceit under intense pressure as an flaw that all Australians of all stripes should loathe. It is precisely what we don't need in a leader. A person who's prone to panic. The trouble is Australians are not used to such stupidity in a woman and there are plenty who feel uncomfortable with it.

Of course being a deceitful female Prime Minister makes Juliar Gillard a obvious target - but what has been shown is that no matter stuff up she makes, she stands firm. Many find this unpalatable, especially as it contradicts their stereotyped notion of how humans should behave. However the judgement of history as I've stated previously will be harsh.

We've heard ad nauseum her lies. There is a gulf of difference between a broken promise in the context of altered circumstances and her deliberate decision to mislead. As such because of the PM of lying, and because that the carbon pricing scheme is based on a deliberate premeditated lie in itself displays some towering crap. That it has persisted for so long and spawned the meme "Juliar" (a term supremely applicable) says more about Juliar's guile and ability to manipulate the facts for her own corrupt ends than it does about the PM's competence.

Juliar will be remembered as an example of unbridled ambition with no scruples, and will sink into oblivion.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 June 2013 6:48:45 PM
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Dear SM,

What a meaty post. To which I shall give
an equally meaty response.
Baloney!

History unlike you, will judge Julia Gillard impartially.
So regardless of how you feel about her personally -
she's achieved a great deal legislatively, to be ignored.

But your reaction is understandable.

Because - as we all know
the truth is never as simple as it seems and invariably
the way we colour the world will be from our own
agendas, our own unique view. And that is rarely black
and white.

However it is important to remember -

If contemporary Australians are to live at ease with
ourselves, we need more education, less fear monge8ing,
and at least greater honesty in our political discourse.
It's amazing what can be achieved if we don't care whose
idea it is - as long as it's a good one and of benefit to
the nation.

"Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate
from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or
fertilised by education; they grow there, firm as weeds among
stones."
(Charlotte Bronte, Jane Eyre).

An open mind is better than an open mouth.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 June 2013 7:04:06 PM
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cont'd ...

I forgot to add - people
don't sink into oblivion who are known for
their policy achievements, who are prepared to
take risks and who have severity of will.
These people are leaders and shall be remembered.

"Her bum may be big
Some may find her a strain
But at least she can lead
"Cause she's got a beaut brain!"
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 6 June 2013 7:17:08 PM
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Foyle, enjoy your race to the bottom, but don't worry, because there are only a hand full of true believers left, so chances are, you will get a place, although it will be a tough fight between you and Lexi.

As for your comment on Abbott &Co pushing for a surplus, I guess you think they also put the words 'AT ANY COST' into the mouth of the worlds cleverest man, some 200 odd times.

Dream on, dream on.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 6 June 2013 8:51:12 PM
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Good evening to you LEXI...

Thank you for responding to my thread, apropos my own thoughts and views of, the character traits of The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard.

I've read carefully, your observations, opinions and expectations of the PM, and unfortunately I'm not in a position to modify or vary my previous thoughts, or opinion on her, or the federal Labor Party, overall ?

I understand you have little or no faith in Tony ABBOTT, as an alternative PM ? As you would be aware, you're not alone with this view, LEXI ? His manner, his inability to 'sell' himself when confronted with large thongs of media about, is troubling to say the least. Where Mr RUDD, took every chance he could, to appear in front of the media ? Similarly, so did Malcolm TURNBULL, every chance he could ? Given the latter seems vastly more popular with the public at large, he too is an individual I'd not easily trust ?

Anyway LEXI, I guess it'll be all over at the end of September ? So, I wonder what we'll all talk about then ? Take care.
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 6 June 2013 9:42:45 PM
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Lexi,

The quantity of legislation passed is no great achievement, it is the quality by which one will be remembered. Presently, I can't think of anything Juliar has done that has been successful.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 7 June 2013 7:21:49 AM
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....she's achieved a great deal legislatively, to be ignored.

Ar Lexi, there you go again, to you, it's all about the passing of legislation that matters most, but to the rest of us, it's about how that legislation is implemented, and this will go down in history as hers, and her parties biggest failure.

If you want proof, I would suggest almost $400 billion in less than six years should be suffice,

Incompitent is now an under statement I am afraid.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 7 June 2013 8:52:26 AM
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In feminist eyes woman can't be incompetent just a victim. That rotton Abbott!
Posted by runner, Friday, 7 June 2013 9:54:47 AM
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Dear o sung wu, rehctub, shadow minister, runner,

I hope that I haven't left anyone out.

Anyway, -

To all you gentlemen Thank You for your patience
and understanding and listening to my opinion.
I guess I do come across rather strongly at times
as my family keeps telling me. BTW - they're all
Liberal voters (I'm the black sheep).

But I can't help it. I have a few concerns. Putting
it mildly. As Kevin Rudd pointed out on the ABC last
night - Mr Abbott keeps telling us he's going to
"Stop the Boats," by sending them back to Indonesia.
Well, how can he do that when Indonesia has made it
quite clear that this is unacceptable. They won't have
a bar of it. Is it really a good idea to antagonise
a country with such a huge population (eight times the
population of Australia) who's right on our door-step?
Indonesia is a Muslim country.
That's just one concern.
There are so many others.

I don't want to go down the path of privatisation - where
government serves Big Business and ordinary people are
left to fend for themselves. I get the feeling that Mr Abbott
believes that it's a choice between looking after the
economy and looking after the people who make the economy
work. That's not what creates lasting prosperity and it's
not who we are. I don't want to see cuts and austerity.

I won't carry on any further.
I've had my say and I shall leave you to continue
with yours.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 7 June 2013 10:55:32 AM
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runner
Emily's listers are not man-haters. Why do you believe that rubbish? They are women getting together to improve the lot for women, for support and friendship.

You don't seem to have a problem with men doing it over the years, why do you treat women with thinly veiled contempt.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 7 June 2013 12:15:14 PM
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I think the message is if you are a LNP supporter you can ignore the lies of the LNP or the attempt to avoid answering questions on policy or the ridiculousness of 'turn back the boats' even when Indonesia has said it won't support it. The fact that WorkChoices was not even take to an election.

This is such partisan nonsense in this thread. Call out all sides of politics on their lies, obfuscations and dead policies. Otherwise we are all part of the problem.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 7 June 2013 12:17:26 PM
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There can be no end other than "The End" and I fear the end is nigh.
Posted by chrisgaff1000, Friday, 7 June 2013 12:50:17 PM
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Lexi,

The illegal immigrants are coming on Indonesian boats, crewed by Indonesians, sailing from Indonesian ports, while Indonesia may not like it, there is nothing they can do to stop Australia turning the boats around. Also with Labor gone, they might well respond differently to competent ministers, as they also want to stop the human trafficking.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 7 June 2013 12:50:24 PM
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Dear SM,

Indonesia has made it quite clear that they will
not accept boats being turned around.
Mr Abbott knows this. You know this.
But keep on with the slogans. It's better than
telling the truth and coming up with real workable
solutions. Rhetoric and condemnation doesn't take
much effort. And if your slogans appeal to
certain voters in the community - and that's all
you've got on offer - who can blame you for going
with it.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 7 June 2013 2:18:34 PM
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cont'd ...

Here's a link that you should read:

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/a-fair-go-for-prime-minister-julia-gillard/
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 7 June 2013 2:43:25 PM
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dear oh dear and to think Mr Rudd would stick up his head again after the destruction he has caused by sucking up to the UN and trying to prove Howard policy uncompassionate. Labour are still so full of themselves that they can't even apologise for such a mess.
Posted by runner, Friday, 7 June 2013 3:13:45 PM
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Lexi, what right does Kevin Rudd have to even enter into debate about boat arrivals, when it was he, almost single handedly, who created this mess in the first place.

He took an axe to a well proven system, a system that saw ONLY FOUR PEOPLE in detention when he gained office.

He should be banned for life of having anything what so ever to do with this issue, because he owes an awful lot to the tax payer, as it is he who is ultimately responsible for this mess, a mess that is depriving working Australians of their democratic rights, those rights being the fair and equitable distribution of THEIR TAXES.

Boy he's got a hide.

As for stopping the boats, that's a mammoth task, made even more difficult, thanks to the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS WASTED by both he and his successor, Ms Gillard.

Step one, in my view, is to stop all aid to Indo until they stop the boats from leaving their waters.

Money talks, no matter what religion they follow.

As for policy, tell me Lexi, ACCURATELY, where is the REAL starting point?

Just how much do we owe?

How much has been committed in the future to the unfunded policies, like Gonski, NDIS, legislation that you are so proud of, but has not yet been implemented, or funded?

Now if you can answer these questions, then perhaps Mr Abbott can answer yours.

The whole fact of the matter is that we have just squandered a golden opportunity, as the mining boom we have just had, has only provided the funds for this governments waste.

Waste achieved through total imcompitence and miss management.

Thank god they will be gone, is all I can say.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 8 June 2013 5:53:50 AM
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Dear rehctub,

What utter nonsense you continually spout.
You need to do your research as to how much
it cost us under Mr Howard's scheme and
just what really happened there, plus the
global events at the time. Don't buy all
the spin and rhetoric you're being fed.
After all the money spent - most ended up in
Australia anyway. It simply didn't work -
no matter what you're told and believe.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 11:00:05 AM
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still in denial Lexi. What dogma has done to your perception.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 8 June 2013 11:04:10 AM
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Dear rehctub,

Here's some reading that may help:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3886792.html
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 11:05:39 AM
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Thanks for the link Lexi, but you either don't understand, or choose to ignore, is that all the libs are trying to offer, is a solution to a problem that's simply did not exist, pre Kevin 07.

Any proposals put forward by the libs on this matter, are as a DIRECT RESULT of labor's failed policy.

Now I am the first to agree that the goal posts have been shifted post Howard, due to global conditions as you say, however, you must admit that it would be much better to make changes to a working system, as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting from scratch.

Evidence being in the huge numbers that have ILLEGALLY breached our borders.
Posted by rehctub, Saturday, 8 June 2013 12:14:37 PM
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Dear rehctub,

Sorry but Mr Abbott's slogan of "We will stop
the boats," is a lie. He knows it, as does
everyone else. He says that he will send the
boats back to Indonesia. Baloney. Indonesia won't
have a bar of it and they've made that quite clear.
To both Mr Abbott and Julie Bishop. And do they really
want to antagonise a Muslim nation that's sitting
on our door-step with a population over eight times
that of ours? I think not. All Mr Abbott is doing
is appeasing the bigots in the community and like
Mr Howard - with his "core" and "non-core" promises,
after the eelection if Abbott wins - suddenly there
will be good excuses for why they can't "Stop the
boats," or "Scrap the Carbon Tax," et cetera.
Wait and see. All the man wants to do is be PM.
And wait if he should Lose. Heck, He'll be worse
than Latham. Mark my words. A breakdown will be
nothing compared to Abbott's melt-down.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 12:27:03 PM
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The pacific solution stopped the boats, and removing it started them again.

Turning the boats around, TPVs, and off shore processing with no appeal to a court followed by deportations will stop the boats.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 June 2013 12:29:10 PM
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No it won't.
No it won't.
No it won't.
It didn't then - look at the what
was happening globally during that
period. It had nothing to do with the policies
of that time. World events tend to make idiots
of us all.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 2:07:40 PM
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Lexi it is no good quoting propaganda sheets on here sweetie. We all know that Labor has bought & paid for the ABC, then filled it with disciples.

It is about time we told Indonesia to go jump. Why we accept their refusal to take back their own boats that departed their shore I have no idea, but it is time it stopped. Nothing like calling the bluff of these people.

Yes we all know the problem was caused by Rudd. with his desire for a high post at the UN. Go soft on boat people was his application for a job. His ego, & ambition have cost us dearly. It is a cost that we will still be paying in 50 years time, in a country as divided as so many are all ready.

Just look at the African states with mixed Muslim & Christian population. There, thanks to Rudd, go we, in the very near future, if we are not actually all ready there.

Australians not yet born will be paying for the arrogant stupidity of Rudd, & the total incompetence of Gillard.

The current attempt to buy the Muslim vote in western Sydney, perpetuating the do nothing illegal boat people policy, is all evidence of the lack of interest in the well being of future generations.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 8 June 2013 2:48:56 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

I know you luv me darlin but you're wrong.
You think you know everything, but you
know nothing. That clearly points to a
political career with the Liberal Party.

Cheers.
Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 4:03:02 PM
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Lexi,

It worked before and will work again.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 9 June 2013 2:44:03 AM
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Dear SM,

It didn't work before and it will not work again.
It cost the taxpayers a fortune, it caused a
great deal of mental anguish to the people being
detained - women and children included. Most of
them got to stay in Australia despite everything -
anyway and the brief stop that did occur was not
due to any policies - but to global conditions
worldwide at the time.

Indonesia is doing its bit in dealing with this
issue. They have succeeded in stopping a large
percentage of the boats. However they can't possibly
patrol their entire vast coast-line, they don't have
the navy or task force to do it. But they are co-operating
with the Australian government. We'd be getting far more
boats if Indonesia wasn't stopping what it could.
They have made it quite clear that they will not accept
any boats being returned to Indonesia. And they won't.
Considering the fact that we're a signatory to the Refugee
Convention - are you suggesting that Mr Abbott is going
to tear up this document and make us a tyrant in the global
community? I don't believe that he will do that.

What you are suggesting is illogical.
It reeks of rhetoric and spin and I only
wish that for just once you'd use the intelligence
that you claim you have.
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 9 June 2013 10:46:06 AM
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.....Go soft on boat people was his application for a job

Yes hasbeen, it is possible that this is his reasoning for not challenging the top job.

When you think about it, if he took a job on the UN now, labor's chances would be even worse that they already are, but at least with him staying put, at least until the election, his believers stil have that glimar of hope to cling to.

Either way, he can't loose, as he either walks into the too job, or he takes up a role with the UN, or some other cushy position he might well have sured up during his time as a minister/back bencher.

Lexi, while I understand the complexity of turning back the boats, the cause of the problem will haunt Rudd and the labor party for decades, as they will always have blood on their hands.as it was they who created this mess, Abbott will simply be trying to clean up the mess.

As for repealing the carbon tax, my tip is this will be the very first matter of business, as Abbott will be actively seeking a trigger for a DD election, as replacing the failed labor party is only the first step forward, chucking the greens out of the senate is a must.

The other trigger will be repealing the right of entry of unions, or the mining tax.

Let's see how accruate I can be.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 9 June 2013 6:51:18 PM
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Lexi,

When the pacific solution was introduced the boats dropped by 98%. When the pacific solution was removed they increased by 30 000%. Nowhere is there any correlating change in refugees. It is time to stop spouting this nonsense. Like claiming the earth is flat does not convince anyone, it just make you look fruity.

From the papers today, it looks increasingly like Juliar's leadership is in its death throes and she will be the first PM in history to knife her PM to get the job, and to be lynched by her own caucus within a term. That's what she will be remembered for.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 10 June 2013 6:17:17 AM
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SM,

You're full of it and just because you spruik something
does not make it so. What you're saying is simply wrong.
And there's enough expert sources on the web that say so.
You can twist and turn things - however the facts remain
and they don't cease to exist simply because you choose to
ignore them.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/judgement-of-history-will-be-kinder-to-pm-than-tv-news-cycle-20130321-2girw.html

As for the PM knifing her predessor. What a load of crap.
She was the Deputy at the time and merely stepped up to the
job. It was the Party who decided that Rudd needed to be
replaced and as John Howard and others have stated - there's
nothing wrong with ambition. Look at others in politics who've
replaced their predessors. There's a whole congo-line of them -
so cut the baloney.
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 10 June 2013 10:15:37 AM
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Lexi,

If I look hard enough I can find enough experts to refute climate change, evolution etc. No one seriously believes your point of view.

Last Feb during the last challenge it came out that Juliar had not reluctantly accepted the mantle of PM, but had actively sought support to overthrow Rudd (after promising that she had no intention) and had also convinced him to ditch the ETS, (which means that her subsequent claim to always have wanted an ETS was also a lie).

It looks as though now even the Victorian faction of the ALP is waking up to the reality of electoral disaster and starting to panic. I can't wait until the shrew is knifed as she knifed Rudd.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 10 June 2013 3:04:59 PM
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SM,

It might surprise you how many people do share my point
of view. But then they're people who actually are
capable of being objective.

The link I've listed below sums things up rather well:

I'll quote a bit from it...

"The Opposition constantly keeps inferring that
Julia Gillard came to power illegitimately.
They ignore the fact that there was
widespread dissatisfaction over Rudd's leadership with
the Labor Party as polls began to slide.
She spoke to him face to face about her intention to
challenge after being approached by several concerned
members of caucus. Rudd resigned and Gillard was elected
unopposed by the Parliamentary caucus."

"There was nothing illegitimate about the process,
especially when it is compared to the way former Chief
Minister Terry Mills was dumped by the CLP in the Northern
Territory for Adam Giles. Gillard became leader because
she gained support of the Labor Party Caucus. It may have
been unusual for a Prime Minister to be replaced, but
it was quite legitimate. Just as legitimate for Abbott to
replace Turnbull as Liberal leader in 2009. Not to mention
Napthine replacing Baillieu as Victorian Premier this year."

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/a-fair-go-for-prime-minister-julia-gillard/
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 10 June 2013 7:54:37 PM
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Lexi,

If your definition of "objective" means "able to suspend logic" then all those voting green and a handful of labor faithful will believe that the pacific didn't work. However, this is probably in single digits %. The disbelief in climate change and evolution has a stronger following.

The knifing of Rudd was legitimate as no laws were broken, and because he did stupid things like dismantling the pacific solution and tried to introduce a mining super tax, and Labor's popularity was falling.

The criticism of Juliar knifing of Rudd was in the underhanded and dishonest way she and her henchmen went about it. Juliar just days before the knifing pledged her loyalty to Rudd and that there was no way in which she would consider standing for the leadership. What came out in the challenge last year is that at the same time she made these promises, she was actively communicating with the powerbrokers specifically with the objective of removing Rudd.

The contrast with Abbott is stark.

Firstly Turnbull was not PM, Secondly, Abbott openly declared that he would call a leadership ballot if Turnbull supported the ETS, and thirdly, Abbott offered the leadership to others who declined, and forced him to stand.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 8:09:10 AM
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