The Forum > General Discussion > NBN - Fibre (asbestos) to the home.
NBN - Fibre (asbestos) to the home.
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Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 3 June 2013 10:29:28 AM
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Shadow Minister - Another Labor failure, regretably I believe this one will pale in comparison the the NDIS blowout when it comes in and everyone from suppliers, doctors and then the lawyers stick there nose in the trough.
All that before some of the people themselves start to rort it then tell there friends how to do it. Posted by Philip S, Monday, 3 June 2013 4:59:35 PM
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Dear SM,
Why is the Liberal Party accusing the government of responsibility for Telstra's asbestos problem? Telstra has existed since the early telephone days and operated under governments of all persuasions. If you're blaming Labor today, so too you should blame Howard's Liberal government for doing nothing during their period in government when asbestos issues were at their height. Playing politics during this time is simply irresponsible. At least the government is doing all it can to fix this problem. Shame on you - you and your pathetic party will use anything to besmirch, this government. So hypocritical considering the period of the Howard government. Both the PM and the government were hurled out of office. With good justification. Posted by Lexi, Monday, 3 June 2013 6:12:34 PM
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Lexi - Idiotic reply, if the Government did the job properly they would have known that it potentially would be a problem and factored it into the total cost.
Do you agree or not? Or maybe they did know but like the true cost of economic invaders they thought they could hide costs. Posted by Philip S, Monday, 3 June 2013 6:18:29 PM
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Dear Philip,
We're talking about the asbestos problem here. I agree with you. If the Liberal government under Howard did their job properly regarding asbestos in the Telstra pits then we would NOT have the problem today. And we would NOT be having this discussion today. Posted by Lexi, Monday, 3 June 2013 6:26:34 PM
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Lexi - Right Howard dropped the ball and did not do it right, but Labor were either incompetent and did not know or remember therefore the cost was not factored into the overall cost.
So to me they are both negligent, 1 possibly even deceitful. Posted by Philip S, Monday, 3 June 2013 7:07:06 PM
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This is a ridiculous argument.
The LNP Fraudband alternative would be using the same pits as the NBN for their street Nodes and would have had the same consequences. The fault here lies with the glorious modern concept of employing sub-sub-sub contractors, who are trying to cut as many corners as possible in order to make a meagre profit at the bottom of the food chain. The results can be seen in all areas of infrastructure maintenance. Telstra have very strict environmental controls and formal accreditation for their own employees and their subcontractors would have had to sign off on these conditions before being awarded a contract. It is expected that these conditions would flow downward and be observed by each level of supervision. To suggest it's a matter for the government is like saying that if I have a bad experience getting my car serviced, it's obviously the responsibility of the Minister for Transport to oversee the condition of every motor vehicle is properly maintained. Posted by wobbles, Monday, 3 June 2013 9:53:31 PM
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wobbles - The Government said how much the NBN would cost it either did not mention the cost of asbestos or did not know in the first instance that would be deceitful if the second it would be incompetence.
I believe your argument does not apply because if the real cost was told to the parliament and public it could have been rejected. It was the Governments job to know all the facts (everything that could have an effect on costs) before arriving at the forecast-ed final cost. They did not do this so they are to blame. Posted by Philip S, Monday, 3 June 2013 10:06:21 PM
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The Labor government yesterday conceded it knew of asbestos pit concerns more than three years ago.
Posted by Philip S, Monday, 3 June 2013 11:07:40 PM
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Thank heavens for asbestos!
If that's going to be the thing to stop the NBN, Hallelujah! And if Wobbles is right, that asbestos must be moved even for fibre-to-the-node, then so much the better, for it will give reason for an LNP government to stop even that limited program they were politically forced into. Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 1:58:57 AM
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Lexi,
The issue is not how the asbestos got into the pits decades ago, but what is happening now. Asbestos is not dangerous unless you disturb it, and it is contractors working for Telstra, working for NBN Co, working for Labor, that is disturbing it. NBN Co was warned of this problem years ago, and like the pink batts debacle, chose to ignore it. Working with asbestos is slow and expensive and really not suited to the many mom and pop businesses subcontracted at cut throat rates to do the work. Any idiot in the government could have seen that this construction model was a recipe for disaster, but obviously simply chose to look the other way, and as with the pink batts, eventually you get caught out. Simply blaming someone else does not wash here. How can Australians trust labor when this is yet another signature Labor project stuffed up by ignoring safety and good management, as just about every labor project before. Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 5:57:04 AM
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Having been trained in the safe removal of this substance.
And having supervised it many times. I over saw the removal of one of our biggest factory,s so far, very much contaminated I have views on this subject. Many, may be all, of these under ground pits, went in while Telstra was government owned. Under ground, mostly damp, the removal could have been handled better, and with some ease. The fault, one that comes back to haunt us often, is shonky contractors. Selected some times on the lowest price, endemic in this country. And another shameful truth, Engineers right down to site foremen,selling contracts to the wrong folk, for as little as a couple of bottle,s of scotch and seats at the footy, or trips over seas all paid for in the end by us. We in this country are out standing in makeing mountains out of mole hills. I truly doubt any,no matter how badly, the job was done, any entered one single home. *And HIGHLIGHT Abbott,s system uses those street under ground boxes too* Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 7:24:51 AM
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I am not clear on why they are disturbing the boxes.
They are pulling the fibre into the boxes and then exiting to to the house through the existing ports. There is no risk with it unless you start cutting it up. After all they have been in use for yonks. Fibre to the node would be different because the number of fibro boxes would be very small in number compared to FTTP and they are likely to be large concrete boxes on main roads. Belly May be able to advise on that. The one outside my house is concrete and is at least 50 years old. Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 9:01:11 AM
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SM...."Union officials say NBN Co failed to prepare workers for asbestos hazards. - THE federal government agency building the National Broadband Network is being blamed for exposing workers to asbestos risks amid revelations it was warned two years ago to act on the danger."
It's the insulation debacle all over again! Ignor the advice of experts, cause to change our mind would hurt us in the polls. After all, if you analyze the past three years, and see where labor's time has gone, very little has been achieved successfully, as they have had the infighting, the fighting with TA, the live export mess, the failed MRRT, the list goes on. The sad part about it is that not one of those government ministers will be finically accountable for the mess they have caused. Bring on indemnity insurance i say! Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 9:32:32 AM
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Here we go again.
If this fool government had not decided to kick Telstra for union reasons, they would be doing this work, for a quarter of the cost of the imbeciles running the NBN. It was ridiculous to start a new company with top staff appointed for political reasons, but this fool government can't help them selves. Only cronyism is possible with them. Then the asbestos bull dust. Millions of us have lived in houses built of the same stuff lining these pits. Guess what? Most of us are still alive, as are the men who cut it up & nailed it onto the walls. It is a very very minor danger, & particularly when wet. In fact it is about as dangerous as me, & at my age that aint very. Remember when the hysterics about asbestos started, & think what drove them. It was nothing to do with safety in use, although mining & production was dangerous when handled badly. It was to attack a company disliked by the government. It was just another Y2K, or Global warming scare, used to damage some & reward others. Now of course we have trained a whole generation to be terrified of the stuff, & let's face it, it is a good excuse for a few days off on full pay. Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 11:51:10 AM
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What Labor has nearly achieved is make the Greek government look competent and fiscally responsible by comparison. The NBN is a labor pollie's wet dream, spending untold billions building something when the full result of their folly will only become apparent in a decade when they have retired.
This asbestos issue is wake up call to the spin masters in Labor, that some of the crud is surfacing before the election, and people are starting to see the NBN as the gold plated turd that it really is. Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 11:53:06 AM
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SM ! out standing.
Your usual effort trying to blowup a concrete balloon. By the way do you get a few cartons of wine and the odd bottle of scotch at Chrissy? Tickets to state of O? Hard to police but o so telling in the end, both price rises, have to pay for the lolly,s, and poor quality workmanship. This country under both forms of government is letting us all become the victim. Posted by Belly, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 2:52:05 PM
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I agree with someone herein, who said the existence of asbestos in these 'Telstra Trenches', goes way back, and blaming any particular government, for it's continued presence is somewhat futile I would have thought. Before Telstra, there was Telecom and so on, way back to the days of the old GPO, even to good ol' Cobb and Co !
All governments are probably culpable, to a greater or lesser degree, for leaving this poisonous fibre in situ ? Would it not be better therefore, rather than engaging in the old political blame game, someone within the present government should exhibit some real leadership and commence removal of the material, before any other poor fellow contracts this killer disease, asbestosis and later on the fatal, mesothelioma ? I'm positive the general public would readily accede, even applaud a special allocation of funds in order to thoroughly guarantee that the job can be embarked upon both safely and effectively. After all, any expenditure of funds is in the overall public good ? I've no idea how difficult the removal process is ? BELLY has indicated that he's been trained, and has trained others, in the correct methodology for it's safe removal and ultimate destruction. It could well be a real vote winner for Labor ? Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 3:01:53 PM
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There is a major panic going on. One family on the TV has taken all
the family away and is stopping in a motel. They are treating it like U235. It is not at all dangerous in that sense. I have had a fibro garage for 50 years and I even put up a fibro fence with my next door neighbour. Mind you, I would not do that again. I noticed on TV those removing some asbestos were carrying it in plastic bags but did not have masks on and were wearing normal clothes. Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 5:28:31 PM
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Dear o sung wu,
Thank You. A voice of reason at last. It's a shame that political discourse has descended into megaphone territory with partisans using any and all platforms to besmirch ridicule and aggressively denounce the government for everything under the sun. This should not be about casting blame, but about fixing the problem and ensuring safety for all. Labor will fix it. Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 6:46:06 PM
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...Labor will fix it.
Sorry Lexi, but they are out of time, as their race is run. The NBN is just another labor mess that the new government will have to deal with, like the unfunded NDIS, the Gonski reform and of cause the illegals debacle. Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 9:02:15 PM
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Dear Lexi,
<<This should not be about casting blame, but about fixing the problem and ensuring safety for all.>> Everyone was safe thus far. There was no need to ever touch this asbestos. The "problem" was only created by the desire of the current government to deprive us of our good old copper network and further the cause of digital proliferation. Cut down that desire and you have no asbestos problem! Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 9:08:25 PM
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o sung wu
"blaming any particular government, for it's continued presence is somewhat futile". Yes it would be, but no one is. Asbestos buried in the ground is safe, only when some idiot digs it up is it dangerous. The NBN is digging it up, and Comrade Conjob and his labor cronies are trying very hard to convince us that they had nothing to do with it. Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 9:10:53 PM
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Good evening to you LEXI and SHADOW MINISTER...
Thank you for your constructive thoughts LEXI, I really appreciate them. Again, I believe this is an issue that should be dealt with in a bi-partisan fashion, other than engaging in the old finger pointing game. I would have thought it's in everyone's best interest that any asbestos found present in any of these potential NBN sites, is either totally and safely removed, or rendered completely innocuous while it's still in it's present inert state. Any residual asbestos still remaining, that's not deemed necessary for removal, it should be left exactly where it is. With some sort of 'physical' mechanism employed, that ensures it remains totally undisturbed. Much like the 'heavy water' storage Site, at AAEC, Lucas Height's. It should be noted herein, that I have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever, apropos the safe removal, transportation, storage, and ultimate destruction of asbestos, or any of it's constituent bi-products ? I'm merely flying blind on the subject, purely as a layman. SHADOW MINISTER...I understand this stuff is being dug up for the sole purpose of installing this new NBN scheme. I don't believe for a moment, any political party is trying to garner some political advantage, as a consequence of wilfully disturbing this hitherto inert asbestos, purely for the purposes of installing this new NBN ? I believe it's in everyone's interest that asbestos is carefully corralled, and if possible, indelibly nullified for all time ! Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 10:51:05 PM
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Dear o sung wu,
I absolutely admire your sense of fair play. And your reasoning on this issue. Trying to make this into political scoring is simply cheap and nasty and as always not worthy of being indulged. Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 4 June 2013 10:55:58 PM
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osw,
There are multiple facets to this NBN stuff up, and the fact that NBN Co and Telstra knew about it. Firstly, there are set guidelines for how to deal with asbestos, and large companies are equipped to do so. However, it is slow and expensive. NBN Co in negotiation to build the network rejected the bids of the larger experienced companies, and went with smaller companies that subcontracted a flotilla of tiny subcontractors that were in no way equipped to deal with asbestos. As with the Pink Batts debacle, the outcome was predictable and inevitable. Secondly the ridiculous claims by NBN co on costs and schedule are already way off, and proper dealing with the asbestos in the 8m pits will vastly increase costs and time blow outs, with most not receiving any service until well past 2020. The promise by Labor that NBN Co would yield a small profit is laughable. Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 5:59:28 AM
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Asbestos, no probs. Vote LNP and it'll go away, just like asylum seekers.
Posted by Luciferase, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 11:36:17 AM
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O sung, to put your mind at rest, asbestos is perfectly safe in all it's forms, but dust.
With the molded telecom boxes, with not only a smooth surface, but damp as well, there is no chance of dust if used as intended. Start cutting, grinding or sanding them, & you could start to get trouble. Not much really while wet/damp, but if dry, the dust will fly, & inhaling that is where the problems lie. In all those old fibro houses, with the stuff painted, it was totally safe. You could even sand the paint, & repaint safely. However, strip the paint & start sanding or grinding the fibro itself, & you were in trouble. Some of it was used for roofs. There, unpainted it could deteriorate in the sun, & give off dust, & drinking water gathered from such a roof had dangers, once it had become dusty. Do you remember the old fibro cutters. They acted as a wedge, pushing a bit of the material out, with no dust generated. This was safe, & I am perhaps enough of a conspiracy theorists to believe they were cynically developed to avoid dust generation, with out warning the population of the dangers. However this present ruckus is politically inspired to help no one, as the material is quite safe, if not hacked about, or removed from the ground. Of course it could offer very big bucks to the asbestos removal industry, so perhaps the ruckus is generated by them. Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 2:03:24 PM
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G'day HASBEEN...
So in theory, provided anything that was mfg'd from asbestos was not reduced to an unscreened, micro-pulverised particle, by any process that might include grinding, cutting, or shaving etc., it would remain relatively innocuous ? Do you think it might prove necessary, sometime in the future perhaps, to interrupt this dormant asbestos in the process of installing this new NBN cabling ? What I'm asking I suppose, might it still prove necessary to modify some of these old asbestos 'housings', to install this new NBN cabling ? You'll need to pardon my inane questions, I don't have either yours or BELLY'S grasp, on these technical matters HASBEEN ? Somehow, notwithstanding anybody's (personal) political affinities. I just can't believe anyone would wish to take the the risk of imperilling the health and safety of any worker, by knowingly exposing them to the hazards of working amongst unstable asbestos material. On the political front, I'm not sure if any blame for all this kerfuffle should be apportioned to anyone ? To me, as HASBEEN has described for us all; Provided this asbestos material is left untouched, and remains untouched in situ, we really don't have a problem. The problem only arises if it's found necessary to remove the stuff, in order that the NBN cabling can be safely undertaken. Then the asbestos MUST only be removed by those contractors that have had the necessary training and experience. Somehow, I really can't see any evidence of political opportunism, even that old chestnut, 'Machiavellianism' ! Thanks again LEXI, for your kind words. Sadly, it's not because of any sage wisdom I might have ? No, it's more of a case, that I'm just really 'thick' both intellectually, and pragmatically. Though, I do occasionally covet an image of myself, as being rather a pragmatist ? Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 3:58:34 PM
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O sung, what I was getting at is that I believe the problem is being exaggerated beyond all reason for political reasons, or for financial reasons, by perhaps workers looking for compensation, or contractors who can see a big dollar in it. I am not close enough to have any real idea on that, other to see a mole hill becoming a mountain.
As for feeding fiber cable through them, to replace copper, a fools errand in my opinion, however it should offer no real health problems. To be sure breathing gear should be offered to those who feel a need for it. Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 4:12:17 PM
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Dear o sung wu,
You always argue on an intelligent level, not an emotional one and you always graciously listen to opposing views even though you may not algree with them. That is a rare quality on this forum - and one I admire greatly. Telstra has accepted the blame fully for this current mess. As long as it is fixed to everyone's satisfaction that's what matters. Trying to score political points out of this situation says a great deal about the character and ethics of those doing it. Especially when they still have litigation pending with things like - slush funds and other matters that will eventually be disclosed. Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 4:39:34 PM
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......Thank you for your constructive thoughts LEXI, I really appreciate them. Again, I believe this is an issue that should be dealt with in a bi-partisan fashion, other than engaging in the old finger pointing game.
O... I would normally agree with you there, however, once again, THEY WERE WARNED, and ONCE AGAIN, they (labor) chose to ignore the EXPERTS warnings. ....Asbestos, no probs. Vote LNP and it'll go away, just like asylum seekers. Luc, no, .the illegals debacle won't just go away, but do remember, the problem was under control pre Kevin 07. This, along with the other messes created by this mob, NBN, NDIS, GONSKI , all of which are proving to be either unaffordable, or unfunded, are going to make life very difficult, especially given the amount of debt that they have racked up. Just sit back and watch the blame game unfold, once this mob gets chucked out. Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 6:31:10 PM
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'evening REHCTUB, SHADOW MINISTER & HASBEEN...
Thank you for your collective opinions and thoughts on this complicated issue. From the outset, I must declare my own political affiliations of being, far to the right of Genghis Kahn ! Also, I'd be the last person ever to contemplate casting my vote in favour of the Labor Party. Sorry there LEXI, POIROT and my good mate BELLY, I don't mean in any way to cast aspersions upon those folk herein, who genuinely support the Labor Brand and all that it represents ! Myself, I'd always vote for the LNP even if Kublai Kahn was at it's head ? Even then, I'd probably still accuse him of being a moderate ! :-) Seriously, with respect to this asbestos issue, I honestly don't think it's really down to any covert political malfeasance, by anyone. Perhaps Labor have been too slow to get the issue off the ground, as well as underestimating the overall costs ? It's all too easy to level 'broadsides' of criticism at governments, when you're in opposition. Come September, all those clever (vocal) Liberals will have the opportunity to show us all, how it should be done ? I for one, will be closely watching Mr Scott Morrison, do his magic with all these hundreds of illegal boat people ? Because, in my humble opinion, this whole immigration mess, together with our 'leaky' borders, with masses of illegals entering our country, essentially unfettered ! This issue alone, in my view, will be at the very core of this next election ? My only REAL concern, when the LNP do ultimately tighten up our borders, the real, the bona fide, the genuine boat people, who're fleeing for their lives, might well end up losing out altogether ? Such will be the impenetrability of the new Liberal Government's catchment apparatus, to prove it's overall effectiveness, compared with anything Labor might contrive ? Sorry, my eyes are very tired, please excuse me ? Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 5 June 2013 10:43:13 PM
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In business, safety is driven from the top. It is the NBN that is driving the work in the pits, and it is the NBN that must take some responsibility. If someone that works for me does something that is patently unsafe and an enquiry is held, I carry the can irrespective of whether my employee knew he was breaking the rules and takes responsibility.
This asbestos release was a known risk and entirely preventable, and it was entirely within Comrade Conjob's power to ensure that it didn't happen. Labor always talks up a storm on safety, but their actions are very careless towards the welfare of those working on their projects. Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 June 2013 6:10:50 AM
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Senator Stephen Asbestos Conroy has a lot to answer for.
No one could accuse him of being competent. Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 6 June 2013 4:03:33 PM
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With the LNP's cheaper faster NBN claim, it has no doubt taken asbestos into account, right? The LNP's prescience on all matters is most impressive and it's a shame it didn't weigh in with its concerns together with its NBN policy, just to be able show how bl00dy marvelous it is and to able to say I told you so at some future point. No doubt it has its own specialist people in every field, and would never take advice from government partners and agencies, right?
Asbestos or no, the NBN must be built. It's extremely important to our future, despite what the dinosaurs tell us. The LNP has no intention of turning one sod of earth to make it happen, despite having a stated policy making outrageous claims of its own about speed, cost (Labor's and its own real final cost)and timing. Its policy exists simply to counter Labor, then to be buried into a false scare about dire public finances should it win in September Posted by Luciferase, Thursday, 6 June 2013 7:56:35 PM
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NBN was fully aware of the asbestos factor, as was the Government and steps were taken to ensure safe remediation practices were in place.
The problem is that although all the correct sign-offs and awareness factors were in place right from the top of the chain, at the end of the line they were ignored by the sub-sub-sub contractors on site doing the work. In some cases, those doing the work (such as a Nigerian immigrant in particular) could not read the work instructions or simply ignored them. A senior member of Service Stream - the major subcontractor engaged by Telstra - has resigned. I suggest that implies where the blame starts. I realise that some frenzied people like to put all sorts of partisan spins on things but it's getting ridiculous. Why not look into Abbott's Ministerial history with regard to Telstra and asbestos? Posted by wobbles, Thursday, 6 June 2013 11:37:27 PM
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Lucyface,
The very most important tool in the risk management pyramid is avoidance of doing the activity that creates the risk. The vast majority of Labor's version of asbestos fibre to the home work is in the small suburban pits getting the fiber to the homes by 2050. The coalitions plan reduces the cost and risk by >60% by using the last few hundred meters of copper will deliver fast broadband at a fraction of the price disturbing far far few asbestos pits, which is logically far safer. As for your predictions of what the libs will do, it must suck to be wrong so often. Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 7 June 2013 8:25:43 AM
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"The coalitions plan reduces the cost and risk by >60% by using the last few hundred meters of copper will deliver fast broadband at a fraction of the price disturbing far far few asbestos pits, which is logically far"
The coalition's plan will avoid the total cost and risk of the NBN by its real plan not doing anything at all, let alone fibre to the premises. At some point, a non-dinosaur government will resume the NBN and resume the risk associated with working with asbestos. Meanwhile, if the LNP gets up, we'll be stuck with slow old copper and its high maintenance cost. In my street alone the copper lines are dug up three to four times a year because faults (due to water) are registered with Telstra. Posted by Luciferase, Friday, 7 June 2013 9:34:00 AM
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Furthermore, on the Libs supposed NBN policy on its website (various Liberal.tv presentations with Turnbull) there is no mention of asbestos. So, the timeline and cost must include these, right, or have I over-rated Liberal prescience.
The LNP has latched onto asbestos as manna from heaven instead of articulating what it ever planned to do about it and where it is accounted for in costing and timing. The LNP's use the 24 hour news cycle media desperation for a headline to make mountains from mole-hills rather than engaging in policy debate exposing them to scrutiny. It has never been so easy to be in opposition, especially when your friends own the commercial media. Posted by Luciferase, Friday, 7 June 2013 10:23:36 AM
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I've just finished reading a tongue-in-cheek
satirical article that might lighten things up a bit on the subject. The author tells us that we now know that the future of broadband is lined with asbestos. As Shadow Minsiter tries to point out - it is clearly part of the government's sinister plot against the people. The author states that the only way out is - vote Labor! We all know that asbestos has been a vital part of the industrial world. And as the author points out it enabled enormous advances in the field of whatever it is you do with asbestos. And it is still a valuable tool, in the right hands. And we're told the right hands happen to be those that avoid using it or handling it in any way. The author tell us that - yes, asbestos kills. He asks - so, why did the government put it there? Why would the ALP, a respectable political organisation have planted loads of asbestos in pits and ducts all around the country decades in advance just so it could be dug up in 2013? The answer is obvious - the government is trying to kill us. The author tells us this is serious. This is life and death. They knew that they would no longer be popular in 2013. As a warning - they burnt down our houses. They put carcinogens in our telephone pits, before we were born. And we shouldn't think that they won't climb through our bedroom windows and smother us in our sleep. To save our country from having orphaned children - we need to apease the government. And we can only do that by keeping them in government. Of course this will mean that Tony Abbott won't get to be Prime Minister but as the author points out, life is all about sacrifices. Posted by Lexi, Friday, 7 June 2013 11:51:30 AM
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Lucyface,
It might come as a surprise to you non engineering types, but copper is considered far more reliable than glass fiber, with lower installation and maintenance costs. Fiber is fragile, easily damaged, and difficult to repair. It also cannot carry any power, and telephone lines require a UPS at the user's end. So much so that fire and other emergency systems do not permit the use of fibre, and insist on a copper connection. That an NBN technician will have to come to every house every 5 years to replace the batteries is a huge maintenance cost that copper networks don't face. If water is a problem, then it is usually due to damage to the cables which has not been adequately repaired. A problem for which fiber is not immune. The reason that the FTTN does not have to take as much cognisance of the asbestos, it is because running the back bone cables in large ducts does not involve digging anything up. Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 7 June 2013 12:04:55 PM
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Interesting take on things.
Sounds like a knee-jerk, short-term fix. But not a very good long-term plan. According to some experts if the Coalition policy was put in place Australia would be faced with the cost in 10 years that would equal the cost of the Labor plan to upgrade from FTTN to FTTP and there would also be significantly increased maintenance costs over the next ten years. Then there's the problem that under the Coalition plan people have to pay for a faster service and the Coalition will abandon Labor's guarantee of uniform national wholesale prices. Rural areas could get charged more. The Coalition's plan also rests on the assumption that it will not have to make additional payments to Telstra to re-negotiate the Labor plan in order to use the company's copper cables. Why settle for something that's simply slower, only because its cheaper now - when it will end up costing more in the long term? Why not go with a faster, more modern technology? Sounds like an attempt to save nickels and dimes for an antiquated system - and spend a fortune down the track. A short term solution is never good enough. Not very logical. Posted by Lexi, Friday, 7 June 2013 3:17:50 PM
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Big beat up for sure.
The copper cables do not have problems with water because they are plastic sheathed. The only way a problem arises is if the water gets into the pits themselves. Connections between conductors from the customer occurs in the pits. The same applies to fibre. Not sure, but feel certain that the customer connection in the pit will be active and more susceptible to problems with water than the copper wires. Each customer will have a port for the customer in the box already so whilst not knowing the detail I don't really see why anything different to what the linesmen do now should be done that would cause a problem with the asbestos. I am beginning to suspect it is becoming an old wives tale like the signs at the dentist etc to turn off your mobile phone. Posted by Bazz, Friday, 7 June 2013 3:46:33 PM
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"copper is considered far more reliable than glass fiber"
"(water).. A problem for which fiber is not immune." "The copper cables do not have problems with water because they are plastic sheathed." ... feel certain that the customer connection in the pit will be active and more susceptible to problems with water than the copper wires. Plain wrong, half-true or mealy-mouthed statements that concede nothing to fibre at all. We now have more sad non-excuses for the LNP not to deliver a NBN if it wins government. Keep the BS coming by all means. In one sad corner on fibre are SM, the LNP and Yuyutsu, in the opposite corner, the world. Posted by Luciferase, Friday, 7 June 2013 9:39:12 PM
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I guess that the qualifications you require to believe in Labor's NBN is to have total ignorance in the field. Lucyface and Lexi are obviously armchair engineers who get their facts from the ALP talk sheet.
In new industrial projects, like the one I have just completed, FTTN is standard practise as the last 100m or so of cable within the building, to cameras etc are all done using copper CAT5e or CAT6, as the fiber cable is too fragile to run easily in small ducts and around corners. Even on the fiber backbone of the network we ran cables with 12 pairs, as even on the long protected routes 2 or 3 pairs would fail. The copper gives a more secure network with speeds of 1Gb/s, as well as carrying small power to cameras clock in stations etc, saving power cables and UPSs. Anyone that thinks fiber is cheaper to maintain than copper is deluding themselves. Just the maintenance on the 12m UPSs in every household will cost probably more than Telstra spends today on their copper network. The only examples of FTTP in the world are in high density areas such as in Japan or Singapore. In lower density areas, the world's best practise is FTTN. Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 June 2013 6:44:36 AM
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Lexi said;
Then there's the problem that under the Coalition plan people have to pay for a faster service and the Coalition will abandon Labor's guarantee of uniform national wholesale prices. What I think the extra charge is, if a customer wants/needs fibre then he has to pay for it from the node to his premises. It would only be commercial customers of various sorts such as hospitals etc if, and its a big, if they could justify the cost. The average user would never notice or measure the difference. In fact that is one of the big problems the NBN will face in the future as customers expect dramatic differences in speed when they get the fibre connected. It just won't happen, but they have been brainwashed into thinking all will get such fast speeds. In fact I would challenge anyone to be able to detect the difference between FTTN and FTTP. What everyone forgets or deliberately ignores in this discussion is that you cannot receive it any quicker than the remote computer dishes it out. The argument about speed is technically ignorant. Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 8 June 2013 11:08:25 AM
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Mmmmm.....Am I going to listen to SM, who claims practical expertise in every subject known to man, or should I believe what I read here http://www.thefoa.org/tech/fo-or-cu.htm and a myriad other links to expert opinion that detail the many advantages of fibre over copper? Sure, copper carries power too, and copper based computer cards are cheaper right now, but these are not game changing matters.
Fibre bends just fine (around corners )for the vast majority of installations and "bend insensitive" fibre is already here. The cost of a UPS needing a new DIY battery pack changeover every few years, whoopeedoo, and they'll get even cheaper too. "World's best practice" is not something that stands still. This weasel term is used as an inarguable to snow many a sensible discussion. (are Korea or Japan and many others ahead of WBP? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_to_the_premises_by_country) What's clear is the LNP has a whole host of non-excuses lined up for doing nothing to fast-track fibre, should it win in September. FTTP is the ultimate goal of broadband delivery and is where Australia should be headed, both as an equity issue for all Australians (fibre for all, not just for the rich to advance themselves further) and to advance us in the world. Posted by Luciferase, Saturday, 8 June 2013 11:10:57 AM
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Dear Luciferase,
What I find interesting is that Malcolm Turnbull was asked by Tony Jones why if Malcolm believes in the Coalition's NBN plan is Malcolm privately investing in the government's scheme? Malcolm simply smiled. I don't expect much from Mr Abbott - he's clueless and has admitted he's not a "tech-head." But Turnbull on the other hand knows better. Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 11:24:56 AM
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The NBN is 100% government owned. So how is MT investing in it?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 June 2013 12:15:21 PM
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Dear SM,
Ask him or Tony Jones! Malcolm's email is on the web. Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 12:32:05 PM
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Oh Puleez!
MT was big player in telecoms and to no surprise has an investment in an IT company, and probably has done so for years before the NBN. Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 8 June 2013 12:56:04 PM
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Dear SM,
There you go. He's got a finger in what he considers lucrative pies then. And no wonder the government's NBN gets his nod. Savvy man. Posted by Lexi, Saturday, 8 June 2013 2:10:53 PM
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ISPs in Australia charge for volume, not for speed.
This means that if you have a higher line-speed and click on some wrong link, then before you have time to notice that the page is not what you're after and click on "Back" or close the window, you could have already downloaded a whole (unwanted) high-definition movie and are done with your monthly download quota. Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 8 June 2013 11:36:14 PM
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Lexi,
It shows how desperate you are. He owned the shares in IT companies long before the NBN, and if the Labor government is going to throw billions at the IT industry his company will make a profit. If you take an idiot's money, it does not make you think he is not an idiot. Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 9 June 2013 3:35:11 AM
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"Shadow communications minister Malcolm Turnbull said at a doorstop interview today that a fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) policy for the National Broadband Network (NBN) could possibly end up costing around the same as the current fibre to the premises (FTTP) policy in the long run.
When questioned whether the costs in maintaining and replacing parts of the ageing copper infrastructure for premises will end up costing more than the current NBN, where the copper will be replaced with fibre in one go, Turnbull said that “probably the prudent thing to do is say it’ll cost you the same.” He said the Coalition’s $17 billion in savings compared to Labor’s cost for the NBN could eventually be spent over time once demand for faster broadband speeds is proven if fibre to the premises needs to be put in place". Even our Kiwi cousins have admitted that their introduction of FTTN was a waste of money and are changing over to to FTTH. The real reason for this so-called alternative is simply to nobble it for Uncle Rupert to make some more money while he can. There is (typically) so much technical garbage spouted in these forums by people simpley wanting to take a purely political stance. Posted by rache, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 10:32:53 PM
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Rache,
For the FTTN to cost as much as the FTTP, the assumption is that eventually every premises will be connected by fiber. This is possible, but highly improbable. The single biggest factor driving cost and schedule in this project is the availability of trained and experienced contractors. The project is only about 25% complete and severely over cost from what was projected a couple of years ago, and already we have seen the consequences of using inexperienced contractors with the asbestos issue. Another consequence is the costs these contractors charge has already escalated due to demand. At the present rate of construction, most people will not get fast broadband before 2020, or closer to 2030. With FTTN, the roll out will be much faster, and a fraction of the cost and for about $60bn cheaper. Considering that about 15% of existing households don't even use any internet connection, only 25% are prepared to pay for superfast broadband, and the growth of wireless only households as wireless costs drop and speed increases is projected to reach 25% by 2020, the rolling out of fiber to every house is a very poor investment. Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 1:27:44 PM
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Dear SM,
<<the assumption is that eventually every premises will be connected by fiber. This is possible, but highly improbable.>>...<<only 25% are prepared to pay for superfast broadband>> But nobody is going to ask you whether you want it or not - Big Brother needs this bandwidth to monitor all its surveillance devices in your home. That's why they have it in the first place, so they know for example if your kid tells you that what they are taught in school is wrong, or if you nod in agreement. Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 12 June 2013 1:39:40 PM
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"Union officials say NBN Co failed to prepare workers for asbestos hazards. - THE federal government agency building the National Broadband Network is being blamed for exposing workers to asbestos risks amid revelations it was warned two years ago to act on the danger."
The costs of the $50bn project ($37.5bn +11bn for Telstra access) is already far behind schedule (190 000 houses passed projected in June compared to early promises of 750 000) and the costs sky rocketing to levels approaching $100bn (based on estimates by companies experienced in this work), but with this little nugget that Conroy failed to disclose, the delays and costs are going to skyrocket even further.
This is gold plated proof of why the world's best practice of fiber to the node as proposed by the Coalition will be faster, cheaper, and safer.