Firstly Indonesia is the 3rd largest receiver of our foreign aid.

Quote
Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono says his country should strive to have a more powerful military than Australia.

About 16,000 Indonesian troops are preparing for joint military exercises in East Java.

Meeting with military commanders, Mr Yudhoyono told them that Indonesia's military should be bigger and more modern than countries like Australia, Singapore and Malaysia.

Indonesia's military boasts 470,000 active troops, while the Australian Defence Force has just over 80,000 full-time personnel and reservists..
It has also embarked on a military upgrade program, building warships and drones, as well buying fighter jets, helicopters and rockets.

To me this provocative statement is a wake up call as to the future intentions of Indonesia.

Seems you are here and often near to Bigotry.
Bet you are unaware John Winston Howard spent a great deal in that country.
His reason? to ensure education was not all Islamic.

Belly -Firstly I would like to remind you of something you posted before, Quote "Philip s it has been my intention to avoid you and you heated posts from your first day here." Epic Fail on your part.

Now to address your latest.
Quote "Seems you are here and often near to Bigotry." Please be so kind as to point out what part of my post above constitutes bigotry?

Quote "Bet you are unaware John Winston Howard spent a great deal in that country. His reason? to ensure education was not all Islamic." WHAT has that got to do with the President of a country making a statement as I have posted above?

You have really outdone yourself this time, please do what you originally said you would do OR engage your brain and read the post before putting your foot in your mouth with such stupid comments.

As a peace loving person I deplore all forms of militarism. After a long period of relatively modest spending Indonesia is now opening up the purse strings and spending on its military capability. This may be in part a response to our own recent action of "inviting" the US to station troops in Darwin. It is also possibly related to the military build up by other South East Asian countries, and also related to American and Chines posturing in our region.

This article is over 12 months old but it does give an fair account of what is going on in Indonesia.

http://thediplomat.com/flashpoints-blog/2012/01/18/indonesia-military-powers-up/

Phil you said; "to me this provocative statement is a wake up call as to the future intentions of Indonesia." Do you have a crystal ball, please enlighten us as to Indonesia's "future intentions". In what way do you see Australia aid as a factor in all this?

Paul1405 - Try reading this part "his country should strive to have a more powerful military than Australia." You not considering this as a provocative statement is understandable, in so far as you would welcome thousands of economic invaders for April alone we had 3319 arrive the vast majority of them single men.
They have for years been surreptitiously undermining us culturally and financially with there deliberately allowing tens of thousands of illegal economic refugees to use there country as a staging point to come to Australia.

Quote "In what way do you see Australia aid as a factor in all this?"
The more we give them in foreign aid the more they don't have to spend there own money on and can direct it to the military budget. Anyone with half a brain should have been able to deduce that.
They have budgeted $1.5 Billion for missiles and helicopter gunships alone.
Which we are subsidizing via foreign aid.

in what way do you see Australia aid as a factor in all this?
Paul1405,
You really are a rare specimen, are you totally whacko ? Was your foresight removed along with that skin ?
I'll have to check what the australian constitution says about the likes of you.

I find it puzzling, to say the least, that here we are in gross debt and deficit, while it is my understanding that Indonisian is in surplus.

I have long held the belief that charity starts at home, and believe me, we are in much need of some home grown charity, unless of cause you are happy to see so many homeless, or our pensioners choosing between the heater ,or the tele, as they can't afford both.

So why the aid?

Besides, I thought that labor's illegals debacle would have expended our aid budget, or at least it will of left unchecked.

Indi, Phil's answers are in line with what I expected him to say, based on his usual rants. Your post is also in line with what I expect from you. I do believe you would made an "excellent" Foreign Minister, something in the vain of a Sir Les Patterson, all you would need to do is take a XXXX from its box and pull it over your head. On the other hand your talents may be wasted as foreign minister. I was thinking you could be a greater asset to Australia's defense in a more proactive roll. We could station you half way between Cooktown and Arnhem Land, atop a very tall gum tree in full military camouflage, tin hat on head, to protect what I do not know, issue you with a WWI surplus 303 rifle, no bullets of course, you could do yourself an injury. In that way you would be our first line of defence should the hoards try to invade.
p/s Don't steal my word wacko, I used it in another thread to describe you, here's a few similar words you can throw at me; crackpot, crank, crazy, dingbat, flake, fruitcake, lamebrain, lunatic, nut, screwball, weirdo. I don't mind such insults coming from you, it simply reinforces my belief I'm on the right track. Now if you were to start agreeing with me then Oh boy I would feel insulted! Just remember wacko is my word and get your own! How are things in the "Boot Camp"?

For those on here who are ignorant of what Australia's foreign aid program delivers, here is a link you may like to look at.

http://www.ausaid.gov.au/Publications/Pages/summary-budget-2012-13.aspx

Paul1405 - Your above reply defies any sort of reasoning to anyone who reads it and what I had as a reply to your original diatribe.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about Quote "Your post is also in line with what I expect from you." on what basis do you make this assumption?
Further on without changing who are addressing your comments to you say Quote "p/s Don't steal my word wacko, I used it in another thread to describe you," please be so kind as to direct me to where I have called you that, this reply will be interesting as I have never done that.

Now if you had split your reply you may have shown a slight degree of intelligence.

Then you make another post with a link to Government aid, which just reinforces my original post that we are giving aid to a country that can afford to have an increasing military budget BECAUSE the Australian taxpayer are paying for there schools, water and other things. I have to thank you for proving my argument.

Next time instead of making a long winded nonsensical reply simply address the questions instead of avoid them, you may come of without sounding a complete fool to anyone who reads what you have written here.

Further proof Indonesia is doing nothing to stop them it is May 4th and in 4 days we have 645 economic invaders come here, remember this incompetent Government BUDGETED for 450 per month.

One of the boats is an inter-island ferry carrying 160 coming into Darwin, the Indonesian police would have had to know what was going on.

About time we started to cut the aid budget to like ZERO dollars.

Paul wrote:" Just remember wacko is my word and get your own!

I think 'wacko Jacko' has been around for awhile and in any case nobody 'owns' words, how schoolboyish ( that's my word) and I think we should be worried about all the fit young refugees coming into Oz.seeing as we have Aussie born muslims going to Israel to fight and be trained as mercenaries.

OK DONE! I however doubt GY cedes to you the right to bar some from your threads.
No room however, exists to give doubt to my views about you.

>>I think 'wacko Jacko' has been around for awhile and in any case nobody 'owns' words, how schoolboyish<<

Do you think you might be able to explain this to rechtub? Others have tried and failed.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13686#236981

Cheers,

Tony

There are a whole lot of reasons why Labor has had its time, and failed.

Defence is another. Feel good policy that assumes the best is for another planet.

Philip S My post was not addressed to you, it began with Indi, short for Individual.
Phil, you made your comments fair and square, nothing wrong with that.
Indi said "totally whacko" a couple of days back I used that at him. LOL
Saussie; "in any case nobody 'owns' words, how schoolboyish" I'm always having a dig at Indi as he is at me. Don't trouble yourself with such, unless you think your opinions matter. It was a joke where is your sense of humor I gave Indi a long list of words "crackpot, crank, crazy, dingbat, flake, fruitcake, lamebrain, lunatic, nut, screwball, weird" don't call me wacko use one of these, why on earth would I do that if I was taking offense or being serious....joke
The trouble with some conservatives, they have the same sense of humor as Heinrich Himmler, a real fungi

Paul1405,
Old Heini no matter what a crackpot he was, was a patriot unlike those who, like you, won't be satisfied until Australia has gone down the tube all the way. I do wonder if you're actually Australian. You certainly don't ooze patriotism & compassion for those who keep you.

Belly - I don't know what you are reading at no stage did I say anything about barring you I JUST PUT A QUOTE FROM YOU THAT YOU HAVE STATED 3 TIMES.

Like usual your posts fail to answer any questions put to you.

Indi: "Old Heini no matter what a crackpot he was, was a patriot" I thought he was just a MADMAN and a chicken farmer. Heini wasn't exactly a screaming success was he, 20 million dead, Germany in ruins, then he committed suicide! His CV don't read all that well. Then all is forgiven after all he was a PATRIOT so were all his mates. Not a got example to follow, I'll pass.

Germany in ruins,
Paul1405,
I can't recall him & his mad mates destroying anything in Germany ? That was done by the Yanks & Brits & Russians. Those who meant to do good.
Australia is different, it is being done over from within & all those who want to take over just have to pretend to be refugees after travelling through several other countries.
They count on the likes of you to put them up & forfeit the rights of Australians trying to protect what they built & the revenue they create for you to live off.

Back to the subject at hand. Some on here do not realise we live in a very complex world where diplomacy, relationships and influence play vital rolls in determining political and economic outcomes. In their simplistic world these isolationists believe they can wrap themselves in nationalism in the guise of patriotism and then cut themselves off from the rest of civilisation. Unfortunate for these adherents they are a century or two, too late. The isolationist in his simplistic way believes in 'Fortress Australia' where a utopian society exists in some kind of time warp. Theses people are willing to open the door slightly to take in the goodies the world has to offer, and at the same time letting out that which they have to sell, all the time believing the world should be grateful for such courtesy. They will bar what they perceive as undesirable, using the old gunboat mentality to drive off those that may seek refuge within paradise.
Foreign aid, if any, is seen by these isolationist as a weapon of control, whereby the recipient comes with begging bowl in hand to get given a small token, providing he is prepared to adhere to a long list of conditions the benefactor wants to impose to help reinforce 'Fortress Australia'.
As I said, Unfortunate for these adherents they are a century or two, too late and its time they moved themselves into the world of the 21st century. It may be painful but unfortunately for them, it is the reality.

It should be recognised that the colony called the Dutch East Indies has been replaced by Indonesia which is really the Javanese Empire. East Timor is fortunate in that it could detach itself from the Empire. Irian Jaya, Aceh and other provinces are not so fortunate.

Australia has catered to the empire. Gough Whitlam was the first to recognise Indonesia's occupation of East Timor and covered up the murder of the Australian reporters. Bob Hawke against the advice of the Australian military sold Steyr rifles to Indonesia. Paul Keating proudly waved the treaty he signed with the Indonesian butchers. The Australian Army trained the Kopassus Division of the Indonesian Army. The Kopassus Division has committed many atrocities in subduing opposition to Javanese rule.

The Australian military is well aware of the danger that Indonesia presents but, as is proper in a democracy, accepts civilian rule. However, there is no necessity for the Australian government to be as stupid as it is.

One reason Indonesia is not an immediate danger to Australia is that the military is busy subduing domestic opposition. Australia has favoured self-determination for oppressed peoples. Favouring self-determination for the constituent parts of the Javanese Empire would be in Australia's interest.

What about the future?
The nation created in 1949 is gone, the United States of Indonesia was crushed by the Republic of Indonesia during 1950 and brutal force has been used ever since to quell objections to the Republic. Jakarta attempted military invasions of New Guinea in the 1950s and 60s, attacked Malaysia in the 1960s, invaded East Timor in 1975, and for several years troops at their whim have been crossing the PNG border.

Even if TNI corruption is curbed in a few years, all the officers had joined the TNI for purpose of making money and the TNI is likely to reassert itself if it does not appreciate the anti-corruption and other reforms.

Unfortunately Indonesia also has a serious bigotry problem, as far as I know Javanese culture did not before WW-ii, but it does now. For years Al Jazeera has run stories about churches being burnt and Christian communities threaten, in Aceh Sharia law has been used to bribe a religious community to silence the remaining pro-independence people, and this http://t.co/7MeUCa1urI is another tragic example.

What about international agreements?
Indonesia is the only nation in the world that has withdrawn from the United Nations. Though several months later under General Suharto it alleged it would resume cooperation, the refusal to allow West Papua a referendum in or since 1963 demonstrates an ongoing disregard for sovereignty of other territories.

Legally West Papua is still a UN trust territory for which Indonesia abandoned its claims when it supported resolution 1752 (XVII), but the entire UN membership is too scared of upsetting Indonesia and its US corporate partners usindo.org to remind Jakarta of the legal fact. We are ALREADY being bitten by our appeasement policy..

If any country can be seen as offering instability to our region it must be Indonesia with its population of some 247 million, 10 times that of Australia. Indonesia is beset with a raft of internal problems. Daeron's post is spot on, Australia's record when it comes to Indonesia has been disappointing to say the least. To our shame we failed the people of East Timor, just as we are failing the people of West Irian Jaya at the moment. I still believe the best course of action to follow is the diplomatic path rather than any perceived threatening on our part. Australia must be open and frank when dealing with Jakarta, in that way we are likely to have a greater influence than if we were to take a belligerent posture.

I agree that "the best course of action to follow is the diplomatic path rather than any perceived threatening on our part." But I think that should include making proper instead of improper use of the United Nations.

For example if we get Canberra to ask the question "Is West Papua a trust territory?" at the Security Council or at the General Assembly, those bodies can get a neutral "advisory opinion" from the UN's court, the International Court of Justice. Indonesia would have no economic choice but to allow West Papua its referendum, the north of Australia would then have two friendly neighbours with benefit of West Papua's established mining revenue.

Liberating West Papua would also help Jakarta reform the TNI on a permanent instead of temporary basis as the TNI would be without hope of regaining its corrupt businesses in Papua.

Daeron,
How do you envisage New Guinea as a whole Nation ? Say West papua is given back do you see New Guinea performing better than it is now ? I mean Papua Nuigini can't hold itself together now even with 1.25 million Dollars per day from Australia since 1975. How much more do you expect Australians would be willing to pay for a whole New Guinea ? Or do you envisage Australia moving in and exploiting it like it did before ?