>>The UK Department of Health recently announced that it would loosen hygiene rules for Muslim and Sikh doctors and nurses. From now on, Muslim female staff will not need to wash their hands before procedures as it compromises their modesty. Instead, they will have the admittedly less sanitary option of wearing disposable plastic over-sleeves.<<

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/04/uk-allows-muslim-nurses-to-not-wash-to-protect-their-modesty/

How do you address politically correct rubbish like this? How can one sanction Stone Age tribalism over public safety?

What is next…really, the circumcision of little girls I would guess as that is an ongoing topic in the UK. Then comes hand chopping and decapitation or stoning perhaps. What defense do we have to this Stone Age invasion of our culture given that numeric advantage has been outlawed by the government agency supposedly tasked with the wellbeing of the masses., that is until the muslims gain numerical advantage and the mufti will then call the shots.

What next you say - They will probably allow the doctor and nurse to sue the patient if they say they don't want that doctor or nurse because they didn't wash.

Moral to story don't get sick in England

That nurse looks positively evil.

Con't Just noticed the story was dated Apr 21st, 2010 was there any follow up on it?

sonofgloin,

Care to provide this same story from a credible news source...because I've looked and can find nothing recent amongst credible news sources.

the EU Times, eh.....

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/European_Union_Times

Philip,

This is as close as I can get to the accurate story and not the hysterical racist one.

Muslim nurses given permission to cover their arms instead of going bare armed as prescribed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265136/NHS-relax-superbug-safeguards-Muslim-staff--just-days-Christian-nurse-banned-wearing-crucifix-health-safety-reasons.html

Anyway, it's fairly obvious that sonofgloin went adiggin way back for this load of old cobblers...as if Muslim nurses would be allowed not to wash their hands...sheeeesh!

>>the EU Times, eh.....<<

I looked at the results for their current poll: 'Who is responsible for the Boston bombings?'. US Govt (False Flag) is the clear favourite with 55% of the votes.

Obviously a site for the gullible and the foil behatted.

Cheers,

Tony

No doubt this is one more Australian law that these folk will challenge.

We must be the laughing stock of the world, with our softly softly approach to just about anything, so long as it doesn't involve Australians.

Poirot>> Anyway, it's fairly obvious that sonofgloin went adiggin way back for this load of old cobblers...as if Muslim nurses would be allowed not to wash their hands...sheeeesh!<<

Poirot I hope you are correct. Philip it is only now that I note the link is 5 years old but it is doing the rounds now.
I found the link yesterday on a facebook page and put it up without any further investigation. I can only respond by stating that if I have reacted with haste and without due care, I apologize guys.

I am not into demonizing any group by relaying half facts or outright lies. Given the push for Sharia and the socially primitive views of the muslim religion a lie such as this (if it is) fits the nonsense that some muslims spout on a regular basis.

In other words, it would not surprise me even though it looks like “cobblers” at first reading. Tony I will look at the track record of the news source and get back to you.

Guys I do not have an agenda as such, I make comment on what I see and could be 100% wrong, if so I will throw my hands up.

>>Care to provide this same story from a credible news source...because I've looked and can find nothing recent amongst credible news sources.<<

Here you are Poirot.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/did-nhs-scrap-washing-rules-for-muslim-staff/1828

Isn't it fascinating how eager some people are to swallow that ridiculous article from the EU Times website? Makes me wonder what else you could get them to believe about Muslims.

Did you guys know that babies born to Muslim parents are always born with tails that have to be surgically removed?

Cheers,

Tony

What becomes the point of the whole story is why is it that people are
ready to believe such stories.

If the story had been worded such that those of a protestant religion
had been allowed to treat patients without hand washing, would anyone
have believed it ?

I don't think so, and that is the lesson from that story.

Excellent, Tony Lavis.

That's exactly the impression I received from the Daily Mail article - disposable oversleeves, while still maintaining strict adherence to the washing of hands, etc.

sonofgloin,

This is the 21st century and this is the internet. Just because something is "making the rounds" doesn't mean it's accurate and not posted with mischief in mind...especially in places like facebook.

Jayb once posted a doozy on some Muslim owner banning the sale of ANZAC badges at an Australian shopping centre he'd received via email, but was originally posted on facebook. He soon found out that it wasn't true.

Lots of stuff out there to satisfy our leanings, but not all of it accurate.

Does this link help as well? Mentions the Channel 4 blog but has some other info and is dated 29 April 2013...

http://andycarrington.wordpress.com/2013/04/29/uncovering-internet-racismfascismislamophobia-42-lower-hygiene-standards-for-uk-muslim-nurses/

Another point to the original story is the lengths Western Governments go to appease a minority group, that is I think why sonofgloin put in this important bit "What is next" it does have to make people wonder how far they are prepared to go.

Poirot - Quote "Just because something is "making the rounds" doesn't mean it's accurate and not posted with mischief in mind"

On the other side don't forget who's pocket the main stream media are in.

Also a lot of things come up on Facebook etc that the main stream media did not know about or were not going to cover until it went viral.

Phillip S,
Things don't go quickly go viral unless there's big money behind them, even in this day and age it takes years for trends and these funny little tropes to become widespread. Look at Lolcats and those amusing captioned pictures that clog up all the kid's newsfeeds on facebook, they were originally an in joke on 4chan years ago, then they slowly became a "thing" in the wider web, now they're ubiquitous.
When something goes viral in three days like Kony 2012, the Indian student assaults or the Arab Spring and the colour revolutions it's because someone is paying to spread the tropes and the information to sympathetic people who then spread it around to all their contacts, it's paid political propaganda.
Rumours and urban myths on the other hand tend to bubble slowly away on a more or less permanent basis, like the ones about governments appeasing Muslims, councils cancelling christmas decorations or nativity plays and so on.
The other point that has to be made is that the internet and the alternative media are almost entirely "right wing" spaces, there have been some moderately successful counter efforts from the establishment like Salon.com and Slate but they're not as popular as Infowars or Worldnet daily.

Dear sonofgolin,

Sorry mate but that was just pure poison peddling.

You claim; “I am not into demonizing any group by relaying half facts or outright lies.”

That is exactly what you are into my friend or else you would not have included “circumcision of little girls” “hand chopping” and “decapitation or stoning“.

Never let a fact get in the way of a decent demonising huh?

Then comes the attempt to sanitise “I can only respond by stating that if I have reacted with haste and without due care, I apologize guys.”

Forgive me but I'm not buying it at all. You have had constant form with this sort of stuff and any faux contrition now is hardly going to stop you poison peddling in the future is it?

To me what was is the most egregious thing here is you not owning up to who you really are. You have moved to the dark side and as that is where your convictions have fled to just own up to them. Be proud! Don't try and insinuate you are part of reasonable and rational society because you are not since thoughtlessly posting what you did, without any fact checking, by definition excludes you from it.

why do all the muslim appeasers accuse any critics of 'demonising' amongst other claims?

Every time a muslim cleric rants and raves against Western civilisation, isn't that 'demonising'? Why do you never take that on?

Double standards. It's time you woke up to the reality.

csteele>> That is exactly what you are into my friend or else you would not have included “circumcision of little girls” “hand chopping” and “decapitation or stoning“. <<

As I said csteele, I accepted the modesty/sanitary issue without too much quandary because the circumcision, the hand chopping, the decapitations and stoning are true and are current somewhere in the muslim world.

Wm Trevor posted a link that expanded the facts on the nursing staff, this from it:

>>“The BNP is factually correct in highlighting the guidance’s proposed alternative of disposable sleeves for NHS staff on religious grounds, which is mentioned in the policy document.

The party is also right when it points out that staff can now opt for long sleeves. But the guidance states that this only applies when they are “not engaged in patient care”. The BNP fails to make this clear – that long sleeves are allowed when not directly dealing with patients.<<

Cs, I accept this and as I said revile at my own peddling of rubbish as fact regarding the theme of the thread. Can’t say more than that.
TBC

csteele>>Then comes the attempt to sanitise “I can only respond by stating that if I have reacted with haste and without due care, I apologize guys.”<<

Give me a break csteele, one wants their interlocutor to concede and apologize if they are wrong…I wish more posters did it on OLO. There is no reverse kudos psychological snare in my statement

>> Forgive me but I'm not buying it at all. You have had constant form with this sort of stuff and any faux contrition now is hardly going to stop you poison peddling in the future is it?<<

Will it stop me from stating facts, or renounce facts if I stuff it up, no, truth is paramount.

>>To me what was is the most egregious thing here is you not owning up to who you really are. You have moved to the dark side and as that is where your convictions have fled to just own up to them. <<

If we are going to get into character assassinations I have one thing to say to you csteele…you have the god given right so go for it….I stuffed up.

sonofgloin,

The thing that puzzles me is "why" would you think that British hospitals would sanction a situation where certain of its medical staff were able to dispense with something as basic as hand washing.

For me the flag went up right there.

That's what prompted me to investigate the source.

It's pretty basic stuff.

.........

AP,

The initial article (and by definition, sonofgloin's haste to post it and embellish it with accompanying suppositions) was out and out demonising.

The "they don't have to wash their hands" had no actual basis whatsoever - and it was ludicrous to suppose that it did.

That's reality.

Let those who have NEVER made a mistake cast the harshest words BUT beware people may start being more critical of YOUR past and present posts.

Whats wrong with them covering there arms if they wish, as long as they practice clean procedures. All this is another example how racist many Australians are. If you were sick you would not care where there arms were covered or not covered Ok!

Don't you think its about time we were more tolerant of other races and religions instead of continually putting them down. We are allowing more and more Muslim people into our sparse country and we do have plenty of room to spare. Another thing, they will bring new ways of preparing food, more peaceful resolution to domestic conflict in the home with their religious upbringing and values. Surely that will benefit everybody. Give them all a break for once instead of always slinging of at them!

To Poirot True Labour people never ever turn against there own Ok!

misanthrope,

As I read it, nursing staff have been required to have bare arms from the elbow down, as material from sleeves has been a major cause of passing on super bugs The idea is that bare arms can be washed, whereas material from sleeves can become easily contaminated.

To get around this, Muslim women have been given permission to wear disposable oversleeves which can be worn over their sleeves. These can be disposed of in the same fashion as disposable gloves. Hence, the risk of infection is reduced at the same time as modesty is preserved.

People are entitled criticise Labor if they deem its going in a direction contrary to its antecedents. OK

I'm prepared to throw the bouquet for "...I stuffed up", sonofgloin.

You deserve it if only for the rarity of such a statement appearing on OLO.

As for "What's Next?" maybe we'll get a new topic from Iftikhar soon...

misanthrope - There is a big divide between accepting other races and other races inflicting there beliefs and views on us.

Quote "they will bring.....more peaceful resolution to domestic conflict in the home with their religious upbringing and values."
Are you for real, riots in detention centers, millions of dollars property damage, numerous cases of sexual assault, intimidation, threats of blackmail, having to give them rewards as an incentive to take English lessons, destroying documents. The list is LONGER.

Austin Powerless>> Every time a muslim cleric rants and raves against Western civilisation, isn't that 'demonising'?
Double standards.<<

Austin you are succinct, it is about double standards and that is a perception that many have of muslim immigration. As colloquially as I can put it: we did not have Irish, Greek, Maltese, Chinese, Italian, British, Yugoslav, Baltic, or Vietnamese only time at the local council pool…but we have muslim only time now.

Detractors will consider that statement as petty and trifling, but it comes without racist overtones. If they had Caucasian only days at the local pool my sentiment would be exactly the same. The rule is based on the principal of exclusion and accommodating begets cultural isolation.

From the local council to government sponsored "muslims in the workplace rules," just the fact that we changed to accomodate muslims and no other ethnic or religious group is a travesty of the homogenous society that government should foster.

Some years ago I would visit a country client twice a year. For many years the plane arrived in the morning so my business was completed before noon. One year I arrived on the afternoon flight and the business was completed by dinner time. I suggested that we have a meal at a local restaurant:
“Sorry I can’t break bread with you because I am of the Brethren religion.”

I was so low on the totem pole that this man would not even eat in my presence, and didn’t give a tinkers cuss about it. We are exactly that to our muslim countrymen, and it will never change unless we become muslim…even then you have to pick shiite or sunni.

If you can exclude me on a principal that exalts you and lessens me, I don’t turn the other cheek because you will smack that one too, but I know where I stand. Many here don’t know where they stand.

Poirot>> The initial article (and by definition, sonofgloin's haste to post it and embellish it with accompanying suppositions) was out and out demonising.<<

P, I would call it theatre of the mind, the verbiage paints the outline, your mind adds the colour.

Dear Philip S.,

Take a look at the news some evening at the attacks in
pubs, people being glassed, losing their eyesight,
taken to hospital, in comas,
elderly people being attacked in their own homes,
in cars, on the street,
women killing their children, men their wives, acohol-
driven crimes, murders, bikie gangs, violence is everywhere
in our society - but it's so convenient to blame it on
"them" not "us." We don't have ferals, yobos, and criminals.
Our Holy Book is Good, theirs is Evil.

Philip S>> Are you for real, riots in detention centers, millions of dollars property damage, numerous cases of sexual assault, intimidation, threats of blackmail<<

I know Philip for desperate and fearful these refugees are a feisty lot, not much appreciation, mostly expectation. They are not refugees, we have refugees, they come via camps administered by the UN.

Lexi - Quote "attacks in pubs, people being glassed, losing their eyesight, taken to hospital, in comas, elderly people being attacked in their own homes, in cars, on the street, women killing their children, men their wives, acohol-driven crimes, murders, bikie gangs, violence is everywhere in our society - but it's so convenient to blame it on
"them" not "us."

Please be so kind as to point out which part of my post blamed all of what you wrote above on refugees, as you directed your post to me rather than as a general comment.

Dear Philip s.,

Take a look at your post on page 4 to misanthrope.
And what follows after "Are You For Real..."

Those comments were what caused me to respond.

Lexi>> blame it on "them" not "us." We don't have ferals, yobos, and criminals.<<

Lexi, an emotive issue my for sure my belle. Yes all societies have crime but some groups punch above their weight, just a fact.

Middle Easterners are just above 2% of the population but they are over 20% of the internees in our prison system. At the moment do Middle Easterners have a propensity for crime, yes? Will they in ten years who knows.

If they integrate and homogenize with the rest of Australia perhaps the crime rate in their community will come down. If the “us and them” that the current global crop of Mohammad’s devotees espouse continues, then no, and I am betting that the “us and them” stays culturally entrenched.

'How do you address politically correct rubbish like this? How can one sanction Stone Age tribalism over public safety? '

one can easily sanction 'Stone Age tribalism' when you use the holy texts of human secularism which encourages the murder of the unborn, the holy texts of femisism which equals selfishness or the idiotic notion that all cultures rather than all people are equal are endorsed. England is simply reaping the fruit of the rejection of truth which once made them great and we are not far behind.

Lexi - Please read it again note this part "Quote "they will bring.....more peaceful resolution to domestic conflict in the home with their religious upbringing and values." Then my Are you real, that comment of his defied logic.

How could you get from that to what you wrote, now I am sure if we went to the local media in there country of origin we would find the exact same things being committed.

In this instance you have cast your comment too broad or directed it too specifically.

Thank you, SonofGloin and Poirot,

Clearly, we have established that it would be abhorrent to allow anybody in a hospital operating room, Muslim, Callathumpian or whatever - to work in that space without having sterilised their hands and observing all of the other usual protocols applying to surgical operations.

I don't know if it helps but one should be aware that in many backward cultures, people do not believe in germs, viruses, etc., because they rely on ritual, magic, the power of one or other of their gods, magic words, spells, etc. - or actually believe that, if someone is ill, then it must be the result of their prior bad actions, their fate, karma, etc.

So poncy Western practices like 'washing your hands' are actually nothing more than falling for the lies of so-called 'Western science' which we know are nothing more than agents of colonialism, in this warped ad brainless framework. Sorry, Poirot.

But we actually have come a long way from backward beliefs - that's what human ingenuity has achieved. We don't have to believe that 'progress' is nothing, meaningless - we can believe that human beings, human societies, can move knowledge - through bitter experience - ever so slowly - forward. We don't have to wallow in pandering to backward ideologies. In fact, we should oppose them with every ounce of our strength.

Just trying to be helpful :)

Joe

sonofgloin,

Do you have a "credible" source for your 20 percent?

Just asking?

Loudmouth,

That would be the most pathetic a post you've ever put up.

Waffling on about backward cultures and people who don't believe in germs...

What is the point of indulging in your cringe-worthy stereotyping?

An effort to try and demonstrate what a big fella you are?

"So poncy 'Western' practices like 'washing your hands' are actually nothing more than falling for the lies of so-called 'Western science'"... "pandering to backward ideologies".....blah, blahdy, ignoramus, blah....

Are you insinuating that Muslims are so backward that they don't see the value in washing?

We are discussing directives in Britain for procedures in their hospitals.

What a miserable, snide and petty post.

Grow up.....

Hi Poirot,

Thank you for your observations. It is actually true that people in many cultural mind-sets do not believe in the notion of 'germs' - after all, Pasteur only 'discovered' them in the late nineteenth century, thanks to modern technology, and even then many people didn't believe him, and - my point - still don't.

I apologise for striking a nerve, but if you are suggesting that my dig at people who don't believe in germs was actually a criticism of Muslim science, so-called, then so be it. You have raised this an issue, so we can assume you have some evidence for this - let's be honest - backward notion. If you wish to associate such crap with Islam, AND wish to support it despite any evidence, (what do they call that - 100% belief without evidence ?) that's your problem.

Good luck :)

Joe

You're hardly worth the trouble, Loudmouth.

We are discussing those nurses of Muslim faith who are qualified to work within the British healthcare system.

I suppose it's reasonable for Loudmouth to assume they 'don't believe in germs'.

Never let it be said that Loudmouth passes up the opportunity to take a dumb swipe when someone mentions the word Muslim - in the this case in conjunction with health.

Look what he comes up with!

A miserable, snide and petty post.

(Congrats on that - up to your usual form)

Poirot>> sonofgloin,

Do you have a "credible" source for your 20 percent?

Just asking?<<

>> data collected by the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows that Lebanese make up the fifth largest ethnic group in Australian prisons after Australians<<
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/migrant-groups-going-gang-busters/story-e6frg6z6-1226017998892

Aboriginals also make up about 2% of the population but make up 26% of the prison population. P the marginalization of these two groups lead to the disproportionate representations in the prison population, but one group was marginalized by us and the others choose it. It is their identity, they do not want ours.

I think most of the Australians who are racist are afraid and somewhat jealous of Muslims, because of the way they are so dedicated to there religion. There strength in marriage and there ability to withstand all the racist taunts they have to endure at the hands of some racist Australians.

If everyone in this country were prepared to learn from our Muslim citizens, there would be far less crime within our neighbourhoods. More tolerance and less drinking, and less violence because of excess consumption of alcohol and less alcoholics. I drink a bit, but not excessively. Under Islam, the consumption of alcohol is not permitted, and that is another thing that the Muslims have taught us all.

Most violent crime is caused by alcohol. Remove the alcohol less violent crime! The Australian Police are very weak and some corrupt. So its up to us to reduce crime, because the Police wont or can't.

sonofgloin,,

You wrote that:

"Middle Easterners are just above 2% of the population but they are over 20% of the internees in our prison system..."

I asked if you could provide a credible source to confirm that.

You haven't provided that.

I haven't had much time so all I can offer is this at the moment.

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/rip/1-10/18.html

"...the available evidence seems to suggest that overall, migrants have the lowest rates of criminality in Australia, followed by first generation Australians, with the remaining Australian-born population having the highest rates of criminality....However, adult migrants from New Zealand, Lebanon, Vietnam, Turkey and Romania have been identified as having a higher involvement in criminal activity than the Australian-born population..."

Telling us that Middle Easterners make up 20% of the internees in the prison system is a fairly sizable statement. You should be able to supply the necessary evidence to back up such an assertion.

That's a good point Sonofgloin, I notice that link to the Tom Sowell videos didn't work so I'll post them again, they compliment your post:

Fallacies of Race
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6IJV_0p64s

Race,poverty and intellectuals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGuNNyOTRnI

The myth of proportional racial and gender distribution:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul0q35mrHh8

Misanthrope,
Lebanese crime has nothing to do with Islam, right wingers and leftists just create their respective strawmen from this fallacy.
Lebanese gangsters drink alchohol, gamble and take drugs as well as selling them and just like all religious people Muslims are hypocrites who have a public face but keep their vices private, there's nothing we can learn from them about temperance or civility.

Poirot - This link provided is it from the same Government that
1) Budgeted for 450 welfare invaders per month, but is in fact now over 2,000 per month
2) Budgeted 2 billion plus for the mining tax and received ZERO.
3) The ones who are hiding the real cost of supporting welfare invaders by having the charities look after them (at taxpayer expense)

That is to name 3 but there are a lot more instances that say whatever comes out of the mouth of this Government and its Public servants is often proved WRONG with the passage of time.

misanthrope, now there's a laugh, the most horrific crimes (terrorism) are mostly caused by Muslims, and they don't consume alcohole.

Care to explain that one!

Now if objecting to treating our women like slaves, or teaching our young how to hate westerners, or worshiping a faith that harbors violence and hatred against all who oppose the Muslim way is in any way racist, then I am guilty as charged as it has long been my belief that they can do what ever they wish back home, but this is Australia and we don't accept that type of hatred and domination of women folk here.

The door is always open, so they can come in and enjoy our peaceful way of life, OR LEAVE.

Poirot,
I have a relative who is a prison officer.
He tells me that the largest gangs in the prison are moslem gangs, the
next are the Asian gangs and the Australian gangs are third.
He said the Australian ones are the smallest because the crimes they
commit get shorter sentences than the others who are in for firearm
and drug offenses.

Seems quite logical to me, but for PC reasons they probably don't keep statistics.

Bazz,

I was merely asking sonofgloin to back up his assertion that 20% of prison internees in Australia were Muslim.

So far he's added the fact that 26% of internees are Aboriginal...which equates to 46% of Australian prison internees being either Aboriginal or Muslim.

I know it's easy to spout stuff that a mate or relly says, or from facebook or dodgy rightwing sites, but it doesn't necessarily make them true....especially on subjects where people are eager to confirm their already existing bias.

It's all very well to say statistics are hard to come by, which may well be true.

But sonofgloin came up with a statistic of 20% - I'm asking him to give us a credible reference to that figure.

Poirot,
The only way to get any idea of who's in jail is to get look at the annual reports of state justice departments, last time I did that it appeared that foreign born non Whites made up about 10% of the total prison population. The catch is that putting people under the heading "Australian" and "New Zealander" by place of birth aren't accurate descriptive terms, logically if you carried through the ethnic breakdown of foreign born prisoners to second and third generations you'd be looking at 20% of prisoners being non White. Add to that a more or less static 25% of Indigenous prisoners and you get a slight majority of Whites in custody.
I know this isn't the way things really work, it doesn't take into account things like the types of offending among non White groups and the fact that habitual criminals are more likely to receive jail time.
Discussing race and crime is dodgy, most people shy away from it because the amount of information available is extremely limited, I view the fact that ethnic crime figures are kept secret as a form of insurance policy for the governments since if an opposition group did come out expressing concerns about particualar groups there's no way they can speak with any confidence or claim any scientific basis for their remarks. Australia is not a democratic country,
the major parties and their satellites have a view that the illusion of social cohesion is best achieved by restricting the flow of information to their enemies, the Australian public,it would make no sense for the intellectual and economic elites to release any ethnic crime figures, they'd be giving away one of their most potent tools for maintaining control.

Dear SOG,

The following may help explain "them" and "us.":

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/the-religious-write/muslims-and-misinformation-20110403-1ctdw.html

And:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/our-high-profile-muslim-minority/story-e6frg6z6-1226007821201

Poirot>> I asked if you could provide a credible source to confirm that. You haven't provided that.<<

P, I had responded with:
>> data collected by the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows that Lebanese make up the fifth largest ethnic group in Australian prisons after Australians<<
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/migrant-groups-going-gang-busters/story-e6frg6z6-1226017998892<<

As Bazz intimated the numbers are cloaked in politically correct fog, but the link from The Australian states:
“data collected by the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows that Lebanese make up the fifth largest ethnic group in Australian prisons after Australians.”

P anyone who has the ability to discern night from day realizes that Middle Easterners are over represented in the crime stats and ergo the prison system. Every day I wake to news of an overnight shooting, and the description of the assailants is invariably Middle Eastern. If no description is given then the suburb given has a mosque in it or near it.

Middle Easterners have joined the outlaw bike clubs in numbers, the drug trade is almost exclusively theirs. Drive by shootings is almost exclusively theirs. Every major capital city has a dedicated Middle East crime squad.

Poirot you are no dill, but you seem to have a touch of the “J Edgar Hoovers” about you when it comes to identifying the obvious over representation of Semitic people in criminal endeavours.

sonofgloin,

And your posts have an over-representation of assumption and statement without material to back it up.

It might seem like nit-picking, however, your initial post was blown out of the water once it was examined for "integrity".

You then go on to say that 20% of Australian prison internees are Muslim.

You don't provide evidence to back it up. Where did you get that figure?

Instead you give me a mild rebuke because I don't take your 20% statement on board without asking questions as to where it came from. Then you give me something on Lebanese prisoners that fails to address the 20% inquiry.

You say that data on the matter is "cloaked in a politically correct fog...". That may be true, but it's not the point I'm making. I'm asking you where you got the 20% information? If it's something you merely heard that was doing the rounds or just something you surmise, then you should say so.

I realise that I'm being pedantic here, but these threads appear to be full of innuendo and statements pulled out of the air - or from biased sites, and they are taken on board as accurate simply because they appeal to the dominant mindset on these threads.

It is clear that whilst 20% is one fifth, the statement "that Lebanese make up the fifth largest ethnic group in Australian prisons..." doesn't mean 20% regardless of the problems "to try to prove or disprove the public perception that Lebanese Australians were disproportionately involved in crime."

But, sonofgloin, you forget to include the end of the cited sentance, "...with 226 Lebanese prisoners last year accounting for 0.75 per cent of all detainees held for serious crimes."

Frankly, I find the figure of three quarters of one percent surprisingly low given the impression generated by the media... and commenters.

Unless someone stuffed-up somewhere?

Dear sonofgloin,

I had written about your original post;

“Forgive me but I'm not buying it at all. You have had constant form with this sort of stuff and any faux contrition now is hardly going to stop you poison peddling in the future is it?”

You replied;

“Cs, I accept this and as I said revile at my own peddling of rubbish as fact regarding the theme of the thread. Can’t say more than that.”

You even had Wmtrevor waving your flag “I'm prepared to throw the bouquet for "...I stuffed up", sonofgloin.”

But then you straight away posted a scurrilous and totally unsubstantiated claim that Middle-easterners make up 20% of the prison population.

There are some quite outrageous and unrepentant poison peddlers who haunt this forum, Hasbeen and PhilipS are prime examples. But at least they accept who they are and don't try and apologise for the bile they offer up. The rest of us in turn recognise them and their ilk as being afflicted with hatreds and prejudices that blind them to inconvenient facts and for whom checking the veracity of what they post is the last thing on their minds.

I am quite willing to accept that as yet you still feel some discomfort about being caught out so there are some vestiges of decency left. These will inevitably fade as you plunge into the cesspits of fear and intolerance, where the smallest transgression by a Middle Easterner, where ever in the world it occurs, will serve to have you turn away from fellow Australians purely based on their race or religion.

If you truly don't want to walk that path then please examine what motivates you to post such nonsense after unquestioningly accepting it as the truth.

You see it isn't a matter of just trying to get the facts straight, you need to recognise what drives your behaviour and correct it. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

If that is not your wish then make the leap complete. Faux contrition is inane.

Just wanted to add, regarding your focus on Lebanese incarcerations, sonofgloin, that you appear to be overlooking a pertinent factor in associating them exclusively with Islam.

Muslims make up just over half of the Lebanese population. Christians are the other sizable demographic in that country, plus other religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Lebanon

Even more reason to question your claim.

Rehctub by your own remarks you're are a racist. Intolerant to other nationalities, not prepared to give Muslims a fair go in this racist country that always denies been a racist country. Many of you who are anti Labour are by association, racist! Liberal and all their tribes are racist to the hilt. Why ever do they wish to stop the poor refugees coming here for a better life -simply because they're racist. We have so much room and food, so why shouldn't they come! We whites invaded Australia in the first place, so why shouldn't other races and nationalities come here if the want, provided they are peaceful.

jay of Melbourne you claim many in jail are from the middle east, what absolute rot! Csteel has asked you for proof and of course you cant provide any proof of what you say. At least with the Labour Party they give everyone a go despite the color of there skin or there religion or anything else. And jay of Melbourne and rehctub I bet you both have your hands out to collect money from the Labour government, even though you hate them so much. Amazing isn't it really. Racism is all about us in this very large country where we could take many many millions of more people from all parts of the world, specially from Africa and parts of the Middle East where many people go hungary and we have we have plenty of room too! We are a racist, selfish, narrow minded, hateful country. Under a Labour government this will change over the years to come,OK!

Another thing I forgot to add in my message. Under PM Julie Gillard we finally have a chance to completely rid ourselves of all this racial stuff we've had for so long under Howard and his Liberal thugs for the last 10 years or so before Ms Gillard was elected after hopeless Kevin Rudd. We all need to make sure she gets back with a large majority so she can get done many of the fantastic things she wants to get done. She's been hamstrung with no clear majority for so long, so everyone needs to make sure they vote for the Party of progress, and the Party of the future. The Labour Party.

misanthrope,

While I never voted for a government under Howard, I fail to see how Ms Gillard lives up to your claim of "completely ridding us of this racial stuff".

To what in particular do you refer?

Yes, I realise Howard usurped Hanson's agenda..., but how is this http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-16/immigration-report-scathing-of-manus-island-centre/4632728 "better" than under Howard's watch?

(and since you go on about them so much, it would be less irritating if you'd spell Labor "Labor")

Poirot>> I realise that I'm being pedantic here,<<

Circular rather than pedantic P. I gave you a link to The Australian who quotes the Aust bureau of statistics who report exactly what I said and you make another request as if the first did not happen…..

Csteele my acquaintance, you continue to assault my integrity because I said I was wrong. You even use the passive aggressive card by naming and shaming Wm for saying it was a fair admission of wrong.

Csteeele>> But at least they accept who they are and don't try and apologise for the bile they offer up<<

Then you play the zealots card by naming Hasbeen and Philp S as being the worst of the worst…but at least they stay faithful to their rhetoric.

Csteele>> If you truly don't want to walk that path then please examine what motivates you to post such nonsense after unquestioningly accepting it as the truth.<<

Then you offer me a way towards the light of blissful denial, “walk that path” …..what path?

As I said to another, just because J Edgar Hoover denied that a mafia existed did not mean it was so. Why not a Greek, Italian, Yugoslav, Baltic, Indian, South American, etc etc dedicated crime squad? ….Numerically they do not warrant one at present, but the Middle Easterners do….not my fault, I’m not doing their crimes. Go to any of our prisons and see the disproportionate number of Middle Eastern visitors, any day of the week.

Csteele>> You see it isn't a matter of just trying to get the facts straight, you need to recognise what drives your behaviour and correct it. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.<<

Thank you doctor, I will take a Bex and have a good lie down and see if the first news report I hear tomorrow has a shooting in a Middle Eastern enclave, or whether the assailants are describes as “of Middle Eastern appearance.”

I will let you know the outcome.

sonofgloin,

That's quite amazing.

You say

"....I gave you a link to the Australian who quote the Aust bureau of statistics who report exactly what I said..."

No they don't.

Here's what the article said:

"...data collected by the Australian Bureau of statistics shows that Lebanese make up the fifth largest ethnic group in Australian prisons after Australians, New Zealanders, Vietnamese and British and Irish, with 226 Lebanese prisoners last year accounting for 0.75 of all detainees held for serious crimes."

0.75% is less than one percent.

How does 0.75% equate to 20%?

How does "the fifth Largest" equate to one fifth?

That's what you're doing isn't it? You're equating the term "the fifth largest" to mean one fifth (20%) of detainees are Lebanese.

Not withstanding, the fact which I've pointing out, that being Lebanese by no means automatically translates to being Muslim.

misanthrope>> We whites invaded Australia in the first place, so why shouldn't other races and nationalities come here if the want, provided they are peaceful.<<

We are in unison there misanthrope, I grew up during the first post war intake of refugees. When I heard an Aussie vilifying a wog and complaining about the change of culture I always thought, “what goes around comes around.” Bemoaning the loss of something that was taken in the first place always seemed shallow to me.

misanthrope, you bring me the four Leb thugs who used a fence picket to fracture my sons skull in 4 places, on a suburban street, in broad daylight, simply because he is white & was alone, & after I have dealt with them we can talk, about Muslims.

Until then go soak your head in a bucket of the tripe you peddle.

csteele>> That's what you're doing isn't it? You're equating the term "the fifth largest" to mean one fifth (20%) of detainees are Lebanese.<<

Wm has already said that.

That was me, sonofgloin,

Yes, I realise that WmTrevor has already pointed out your folly.

Does it mean anything to you?

You didn't skip a beat in the wake of his comment.

Sheesh!

Poirot do you ever manage to agree with anyone? If you find my spelling irritating, well to bad for you, if that's all you can pick on. Hasbeen the people who injured your boy were from the Middle East. I'm sorry to hear he was injured but he could have been injured by anybody including here. So you say we should condemn all people except Australians for your son's lamentable injuries eh? Pal, you're one hell of a narrow minded person aren't you, and an insulting one at that? So I can expect nothing better then insults from you in the future, your motives are very clear, if anyone disagrees with you, you insult them. You're the type to gather around you some of your racist friends and beat up some defenceless Muslim, all because he chooses a religion that you disagree with, or his wife is wearing a hijab or burka. What a terrible crime that is. Perhaps we should ban all women from wearing head scarves, or Nuns wearing a habit. Would that make you happy, probably not as you and your kind believe that Muslims have no right to practice their beliefs in this country? The welcoming country of Australia.

You're absolutely the worst example of a welcoming Australian I've ever seen. The least you can do is offer me and all free thinking Australian an apology for your insulting and denigrating words. I'd hate to have you and your kind around if we had foreign visitors here. Why don't you grow up and act like a mature adult and stop all this racist tripe you and your cohorts peddle.

I have to say Poirot, that I love the frustration in your Sheesh's.

....misanthrope

...provided they are peaceful.

Are you trying to take the piss!

What a joke! Peaceful, now there's another laugh.

If disliking people for preaching their hate against Australians, in Australia is racist, then hang me cause I'm proud to be a racist Aussie.

misanthrope, so tell me, what is it about your beloved Julia that makes you think she is doing a good job?

I would also like to inform you that I don't hate anyone, other than this who come here, bring their baggage, then try force their hate for humanity on to is, in our country.

As I ALWAYS SAY, everyone's welcome, so long as they leave their baggage at the front gate.

Unfortunately, like it or not, many Muslims just can't do that.

I should also remind you that it's not so much the people I dislike, rather than the hate fueled religion (baggage) many bring with them, as just one potential terrorist, is one too many, and given their leaders can't control them, what hope do we have.

So before you tag me as racist, just remember what it is that makes me think the way I do, as all I am trying to do is protect our peace loving way.

Now I ask you, is that too much to ask?

Furthermore, do you really think it's grounds for you to call me a racist?

As for spelling, hey, I'm on your side there, as my spelling ain't that crash hot at times, but as I say, spleeing is oevr rtaed.

sonofgloin,

Re my "sheeshes"....it's not so much frustration, as incredulity.

misanthrope,

Yes, sorry if I seem a bit hard on you. But I'm a person who believes that every government deserves to be monitored and critiqued...keeps them on their toes. That's healthy for democracy.

I wasn't so much criticising your spelling per se, more surprised that such a fan of the party and its leader couldn't see their way to spelling it correctly.

Dear rehctub,

Our "peace loving way?"

Tell that to the people who are abused on our
trains, trams, in our sports arenas, shops,
pubs, et cetera,
simply for being visibly different.

Not to mention the warm fuzzy feeling they'd derive from reading comments in places like OLO.

I'm always fascinated by the hypocricy undertaken by those who criticise hate-speak...... often practiced by people who indulge in the very same practice to articulate their criticisms.

Strange old world.

It's frustrating that there seems to be so much confusion, and misplaced 'argument', over urgent issues - perhaps there are some posters who are, yes, racist, IF they see the issues around this fuzzy issue as racial, and perhaps there are some wacko Christians who want to assert that their bundle of beliefs and ideologies is better than someone else's, IF they perceive the issues as those of religion. And then there are others here who mix up nationality with race with religion with 'visible difference'.

Let's clear up a couple of points:

* refugees on boats are very UNlikely to be Muslim terrorists. Currently most boat-people are Tamil Sri Lankans. Previously, most refugees - and still many of them - were/are Shi'ite Hazaras, from a population which has been persecuted by the (slight) majority Pathans, by Sunni Muslims, &c., but who do not seem to have ever been involved in suicide bombing (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong). Similarly Iraqis.

* the issues, at least from my POV, deal with ideology rather than religion, and certainly ideology rather than nationality, color, language or shoe-size - issues which relate directly to the treatment of women, to notions of human equality and the rule of law, to issues of how do we relate to each other - i.e. an imperfect, human-derived, more-or-less democratically-sanctioned system of equality of the law with respect to everyone in a particular society.

As an atheist, I can't take revealed dogma all that seriously, except insofar as it has led to forced conversions, both by Muslims and by Christians, and perhaps by Buddhists as well. I'm happy with the notion that Australia is, fundamentally, a secular society with a industrial or post-industrial legal system, that is a long way ahead of any society or legal system supposedly based on the unquestioned revelations of some Book.

[TBC]

[C]

So any criticism of Christianity or Islam or any other body of ideology on those grounds - or on the grounds that one or the other is seeking to impose its values by force or violence or by terrorising ordinary people, you and me, indicated that it is no better than previous systems, such as colonialism, imperialism, etc., and most certainly does not deserve the slightest respect.

I support this government in its reaffirmation of our secular and imperfectly-democratic system, of equality of all before the law and in its defense of the rights of hitherto-oppressed groups in our society.

Questions: in a society or ideology of YOUR choice (no names), that YOU would defend, would a woman Prime Minister be possible ? Would gay rights be at all possible ? Would a 'Left' be possible ? On the other hand, (in the 21st century, for goodness' sake), would slavery be possible ? For non-believers, of course ?

I'm glad that's all sorted out :)

Joe

On the subject of a female Prime Minister or President, if we think about it, there haven't been all that many outside of industrialised countries - in Europe: Germany, all Scandinavian countries, Lithuania, Britain, Ireland (but not in many other Catholic countries), Australia, New Zealand .

Not too many in Muslim countries, only Benazir Bhutto (assassinated by Hizb-ut-Tahrir?) and Sukarnaputri (both daughters of a revered former Prime Minister and President respectively), only two in Africa (Liberia and Malawi), three? in South America (Bachelet, Kirchner and Roussef) - and, surprise ! almost none in any of the so-called socialist countries: the only one I can think of would have been Ana Pauker in Rumania in the forties. So much for a total of several hundred years of socialism, across thirty-odd countries.

But in India, Sri Lanka, now Thailand, the Philippines, yes - again, in each case, the relation of powerful ex-PMs and Presidents and favoured candidates (e.g. Aquino).

So there are the glaring stand-outs - the Muslim countries and the so-called socialist countries, in which women would have (or have had) Buckley's.

Maybe I've got it all wrong ? Female equality is NOT an indication of progress, but of regression ? Female leadership of a country is ideologically evil, backward, bourgeois and Western ?

Sorry, I don't believe so.

So, Poirot, behead me ;)

Cheers,

Joe

"So, Poirot, behead me"

Oh, Wow, Loudmouth -

You've been waffling away here and I've only just noticed you.

(I'm not really interested at the present juncture in your feeble attempts to get up my nose - but I'm sure it will keep you amused to go on trying:)

Carry on......

Joe,
Nobody in Afghanistan has clean hands, the Hazara ended up with the rough end of the pineapple because their fighters and spiritual leaders worked as Iranian proxies in the Afghan wars of the 1990's, they are no more "innocent" than any of the other groups.
http://afgstudygroup.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/what-really-happened-afshar-operation.html
The situation regarding the Tamil Tigers is well known and there have been numerous instances of war criminals and terrorists entering Western countries as refugees.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9926441/Sudanese-war-criminal-living-rent-free-in-Birmingham-house.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/egyptian-terrorist-in-higher-security/story-fn9hm1gu-1226626492853

Australia needs to end all refugee resettlement programs, they've been a disaster, they're setting Whites against Whites, legal immigrants against illegals, immigrant against native born, immigrant against immigrant.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

For your information:

Women comprise one third of the Parliament of Egypt.

Whereas despite a few high profile roles women
comprise less than one third of all Parliamentarians
in Australia and occupy less then one quarter of all
Cabinet positions.

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/Womeninparliament

Thank you, Lexi,

I don't know where you got your figures from. This article suggests that only 2 % of the current Egyptian Parliament (Waf'd) are women:

http://www.ids.ac.uk/files/dmfile/INF30.pdf

To quote from the article:

"Women’s representation in parliament fell from 13 per cent in 2010 to two per cent in 2011 despite the fact that the number of women who nominated themselves for office had doubled."

i.e. 2 %, or nine members of Parliament.

And I wouldn't mind betting that a high proportion of them were urban, Cairo-based, Coptic Christians and secularists, going by this:

http://democratizingegypt.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/names-of-women-in-egyptian-parliament.html

Don't believe everything you are told, Lexi :)

Joe

It seems Loudmouth is right, Lexi.

http://www.npr.org/2012/01/19/145468365/in-egypts-new-parliament-women-will-be-scarce

Loudmouth,

Do you reckon those remaining women parliamentarians "believe in germs"?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5769&page=0#161288

Yes, a high proportion of them, I'm sure - some of them are doctors actually. It's not 'kunder, kuche, kurche,' for all Egyptian women, Poirot, and a very high proportion of women from some religious groups there have been to school :)

Joe

You've got a hide, Joe.

You're the one who posted that bilge for no reason other than to denigrate non-Western people and practices.

Here it is again.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5769&page=0#161288

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

This is where I got the information from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_political_leaders_in_Islam_and_in_Muslim-majority_countries

The information was given as of 2009.

Here is another link:

http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/Muslim_Leaders.htm

It covers Woman Muslim Leaders and Female Leaders in Muslim
Countries throughout the times and goes up to 2006.

Dear Poirot,

I do my research and simply go on what
I find. Admittedly I should have taken
more notice of the date - 2009 - however,
it doesn't change the fact that during
that period women did make up one third of
the Egyptian Parliament.

But not now, with the Muslim Brotherhood in power ?

When the MB engineers a crisis sufficient to enable them to declare another state of emergency and uses it to shut the door on any further elections, get ready for a huge increase in numbers of highly-educated female refugees from Egypt. And, for slightly different reasons, from Afghanistan.

Actually, Lexi, I'm sceptical about your figures, even for 2009. Are you counting candidates, or elected members ?

Cheers,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Take a look at the link I gave you.

I'm not counting anything - merely quoting the
figures given.

Cheers.

Actually, Loudmouth, I used to know a woman who led the Greens federally in Canada.

I still have an email where she told me that the reason she resigned and went back to publishing was because of the "men's club" mentality - I'm supposing she was referring to her own party and the federal politics in general in Canada at the time.

I think women have to ape their male counterparts to be successful in Western politics...moves them further to the right methinks.

Thank you, Lexi, yes, it mentions numbers of candidates but also lists the names of the nine women who, it appears, may have been elected in the last election. 2 %.

I'm not sure what you are getting at, Poirot - that women shouldn't aspire to be elected to a 'men's club' ? Surely I've misunderstood you ?

And no, I'm trying to be sarcastic: I'm simply asking, what do you mean ?

Cheers,

Joe

Not really saying anything, Loudmouth. Merely relaying an experience from one women who attained a fairly high position in the Western political scheme of things.

As I recall, she felt she could do more for her cause, and retain more autonomy and focus on purpose, by going back to writing and publishing.

Personal choice of course.

'I think women have to ape their male counterparts to be successful in Western politics...moves them further to the right methinks. '

bring out the tissues. Thankfully Maggie did not have such a complex.Maybe just maybe if the left promoted on ability instead of gender then they would not have so many poor performers such as the current Emily listers.

Dear runner,

You as a professed Christian must really stop
your frankly vicious public discourse.
As Virginia Trioli points out in her weekly
column:

" We need to stem a blind, partisan hatred that's tearing
this country in two. When was it decided that all
the concerns, issues, policies, and pre-occupations of
this country had to be divided into a left-right
dogfight? I know as many Liberal voters who couldn't do
without the ABC and have a problem with mandatory detention
as I know Labor voters who resent cash subsidies for the
car industry and were supportive of the NT intervention."

The point being made is that Australia's interests are
far more complex than those like yourself who insist on
seeing all discussions through a fixed ideological viewfinder.
Such one-eyed bias is a triumph for negativity, and as
I've stated many times this country has never needed a
more positive, open, and compassionate approach in
public discourse - than now.

Lexi

'We need to stem a blind, partisan hatred that's tearing
this country in two. '

r u referring to a Pm who calls Abbott a woman hater?
r u referring to political correct decisions that lead to over 1000 drownings (in the name of compassion)

r u referring to independants who with such hatred and with a smirk on their face spoke of open and accountable Government.

r u referring to the Labour party that funded the defense of Thompsons use of cleaners money for prostitutes until shamed to stop so.

You may call this one eyed bias however to ignore it is 2 eyed bias.

Personally I think the diviseness has come from a Government proven to be incompetent (and that is being kind).

Using the poor woman me is an insult to all thinking voters.

runner,

"Are you" referring to "allegations" involving Mr Thomson.

No biased at all, "are you"?

"Are you" ever going to desist from ascribing "hatred" to people with whom you disagree?

Dear sonofgloin,

I note you have offered no retraction of your claim “Middle Easterners are just above 2% of the population but they are over 20% of the internees in our prison system.” even though it has been shown to be demonstrably false.

You sir are indeed a fast learner. It seems you have chosen your path and the others will fulsomely welcome you into their ranks. Never apologise and never retract is their mantra and never letting a fact get in the way of a good demonising is their creed. Enjoy your new friends.

Thank you for being accommodating.

However if you do get tired of them and felt homesick for reasoned and logical positions on issues such as this we would welcome you back.

Dear runner,

Thanks for proving my point.

What I'm talking about is what's coming out of
your mouth every time you post. What we don't
need right now is a vicious public discourse
of condemnation and attack. We don't need
to unleash a nasty, antisocial and destructive
power that has real consequences for the
cohesion of our society.

Poirot and Lexi

I see facts that destroy your bias is nasty and divisive. Nothing unfactual about 1000 deaths as a result of 'compassionate'laws. Seems to me your years of vindicativeness towards Abbott has failed (along with Gillard).

Dear runner,

My years of vindictiveness towards Mr Abbott?
What, by simply criticising his dog-whistling,
inane slogans, lack of policies, bare-knuckle
politics, and determination to be PM and do
whatever it takes (short of selling his ar*se).

We can all be hard old chap. As long as we do
it - reasonably.

But you don't get that.

cont'd ...

BTW: one-liners don't count as facts.

Dear Lexi

thanks for proving my point.

Lexi,

Don't waste your breath on runner.

I'm still waiting for him to demonstrate a skerrick or two of true Christian spirit and good will.

"Vindicativeness" is your specialty runner. You rarely make a post without rhetorically pushing a pie in someone's face, while hurling any vice at hand in their direction for good measure.

Why am I not surprised that you wield the "deaths at sea" proposition as a weapon to wallop Lexi. It's always the last refuge for the "Fortress Australia" mob. Scott Morrison would be proud of you.

Csteele>> However if you do get tired of them and felt homesick for reasoned and logical positions on issues such as this we would welcome you back.<<

Well many thanks Cs, god I thought I was on the outer for a second.

You ask why I don’t throw my hands up to this error in info transfer, perhaps it is the gracious manner that the old gang addressed my previous “hands up” stance…..I aint going back to that.

I posted a link so there was no factual malice or decit, I simply misread the paragraph…just to remind ourselves:
"BOCSAR director Don Weatherburn says it proved impossible to compile comprehensive figures because the arresting police often didn't ask the question and many detainees refused to answer it. However, data collected by the Australian Bureau of Statistics shows that Lebanese make up the fifth largest ethnic group in Australian prisons….”

Cs, I actually picked up on the mistake just after posting, but decided to keep my mouth shut and wait it out, Wm got it first, followed briskly by Poirot and sadly you are a distant third…lol just kidding.

Cs, do you recall I said this to you:
“Thank you doctor, I will take a Bex and have a good lie down and see if the first news report I hear tomorrow has a shooting in a Middle Eastern enclave, or whether the assailants are describes as “of Middle Eastern appearance.”<

There were two on the morning news the next day….nothing this morning though.

Runner>> r u referring to, r u referring to, r u referring to...

I don't know, but as an impartial observer ladies, I think the ru's have it.

runner,

FU
are going to post in contractions can we have some warning...

otherwise we will think you are attempting the 'RUBC FUNEX' sketch from The Two Ronnies.

Dear Poirot,

Thanks for the good advice about runner.
I'll take it on board.

Dear SOG,

Obviously, thinking isn't your strong suit.

Dear Wm.,

2Y'S UR
2Y'S UB
ICUR just great for me!

'Why am I not surprised that you wield the "deaths at sea" proposition as a weapon to wallop Lexi'

THats right Poirot the left hate their hypocrisy exposed as you have demonstrated. THey are the 'compassionate ' ones. Well thats the lie they pedalled for years.

Lexi>> ovisly tnkn not yr tuff thrds<<

This is fun....but I am sorry to say that you are as one eyed as a needle in a haystack my belle.

Lexi I have found you bi focal on most subjects except politics. You have often seen my anti government posts, have you ever seen a pro Abbott or pro Coalition post…never. I am bi focal when I look at politicians, but sadly you are not.

As an example, everything Runner said in his “ru” reply is fact, simple as that, except for the smirks on the independents faces, that is subjective.

The fact that you either do not recognize or will not accept that the Labor Parties political wing is broken is irrational, Belly concedes it, and that he now tends to defend the Party and not the government is his personal testament to rationality. The Party will be there when these clowns go.

Regarding your reply to runner:

>>What I'm talking about is what's coming out of
your mouth every time you post.<<

Apportioning blame to Runner for the wholesale collapse of our society for stating facts is the subterfuge of political correctness, a token simpatico ploy that gives you a moral aloofness and a change in focus away from the failures of this government who's tax receipts are up by 7% on last year but we are borrowing $12 million an hour.

That is what is tearing our society apart, and you don't recognize it because you despise the opposition...just irrational.

Dear sonofgloin,

You wrote;

“You ask why I don’t throw my hands up to this error in info transfer, perhaps it is the gracious manner that the old gang addressed my previous “hands up” stance…..I aint going back to that.”

But I didn't ask at all. I noted it and deemed it conforming to expectations, that is all.

And please don't try and turn this into you against the 'old gang'. I was the only one who challenged your apology. The reasons I did so was because what really needed an apology wasn't a blatant beat-up being posted as the truth, it was the mindset that allowed it to happen with such ease.

An apology that went something like this;

'I am sorry for the stereotyping that allowed me to post something without checking its veracity. and I accept the fact that the post was not coming from a balanced viewpoint and I will endevour to apply due diligence in the future.”

- would have been received far more openly.

Ultimately mate you were engaged in poison peddling, got caught out with a dodgy news link, then got slapped around a bit. No need to stop apologising for stuff ups, I've had more than my fair share on OLO, especially in the early days, but haven't begrudged being called out on any of them as they have made me pull my socks up. To keep engaging in what you have just done though will put you in another category of poster, one that I'm not sure you are ready to join. Your choice though in the end.

csteele>> To keep engaging in what you have just done though will put you in another category of poster, one that I'm not sure you are ready to join. Your choice though in the end.<<

Cs, once again thanks for your input...but who died and left you emperor of OLO. You keep alluding to us and them, is there a third choice?

>> 'I am sorry for the stereotyping that allowed me to post something without checking its veracity. and I accept the fact that the post was not coming from a balanced viewpoint and I will endevour to apply due diligence in the future.”<<

Given you are prone to writing apologies for others, would you care to pen their posts as well? We could have threads that are started by csteeele, with contributions from csteele, and responses from csteele.

Administrator csteele, chief patron csteele, chief protagonist csteele, etc etc.

>> And please don't try and turn this into you against the 'old gang'. I was the only one who challenged your apology.<<

Well csteele you are well on the way to a csteele only format. They say that “one is the loneliest number there can ever be.”

Dear SOG,

I will state it again. The chance of having a
sensible discussion about issues on this
forum has been losing ground for some time.
Especially when it comes to politics.
One political point of view is graded over
another and different values are assigned to
each. There are those who speak of Julia Gillard
and Labor in the most appalling terms. And There
are others who don't want to see Tony Abbott
merely questioned and called to account, they
want to see him eviscerated.

I have been critical of Labor many times and of
Mr Abbott as well.

I will continue to stem a blind, partisan hatred
that's tearing this country in two.
When was it decided that all the concerns, issues,
policies and pre-occupations of this country had
to be divided into a Left/Right dogfight?

Australia's interests are far more complex than
those who insist on seeing all discussions through
a fixed ideological viewfinder.

People are remarkably diverse. We have voters of all
persuasion, city and country folk, very young and
very old, straight, gay, and everything else.

We should all be heard.
Reasonably.

I trust this clarifies things for you.

Dear sonofgloin,

It seems you are developing a siege mentality when there is no siege.

This place has gone through a phase when Muslim bashing was rife and seemingly the favourite past time of many. There were 200 post threads almost exclusively centred around fear mongering and reinforcing stereotypes. Those who spoke against the mob were derided and shouted down.

There are some of us who just got pretty jack of the whole sordid mess and started responding more forcefully as reasonable debate appeared powerless. Perhaps there was some pining for the old OLO when the mood it seemed was a lot more collaborative and congenial. Sure the likes of runner have been with us for a long while but he was fringe, in fact I would miss him if he weren't around.

While some have understandably decided not to engage in these debates those who have challenged the proliferation of anti-immigrant/anti-Muslim posts have done so in individual ways. Lexi for instance has continued to engage in a more conciliatory approach (just as an aside referring to her or for that manner any female here in terms of your 'belle' is kinda creepy), Poirot and others have chosen to be a little more strident in directly challenging falsehoods. I, much to my discredit decided to pick up my big stick and go toe to toe with your lot calling you poison peddlers. Perhaps there was a time where I may well have been capable of echoing Lexi's approach but I not longer have that capacity.

Rest assured though at this point we are still very much in the minority.

A little reminder;

“What is next…really, the circumcision of little girls I would guess as that is an ongoing topic in the UK. Then comes hand chopping and decapitation or stoning perhaps. What defence do we have to this Stone Age invasion of our culture given that numeric advantage has been outlawed by the government agency supposedly tasked with the wellbeing of the masses., that is until the muslims gain numerical advantage and the mufti will then call the shots.”

Csteele>> Lexi for instance has continued to engage in a more conciliatory approach (just as an aside referring to her or for that manner any female here in terms of your 'belle' is kinda creepy),<<

I agree Lexi puts up with a load before she fires back and generally with vengeance.

Re the creepy “Belle” familiararity that I use exclusively with Lexi, its genesis was some years ago with “Lexi my Baltic Belle,” I was wordsmithing a little and Belle, a term of differential from the also ran’s stuck. I would stop if she requested it.
I also call Belly my “china,” again a term that I use exclusively with Belly….everyone else gets sport, tiger or mate. I disagree with both these contributors, have said nasty and provocative things to them for a few years now, but I have found something special in both of them, along with Arjay for some reason, but I just call him Arjay….hope this helps.

Csteele>> A little reminder;

“What is next…really, the circumcision of little girls I would guess as that is an ongoing topic in the UK. Then comes hand chopping and decapitation or stoning perhaps. What defence do we have to this Stone Age invasion of our culture given that numeric advantage has been outlawed by the government agency supposedly tasked with the wellbeing of the masses., that is until the muslims gain numerical advantage and the mufti will then call the shots.”<<

Cs, I don’t retreat from that statement. Little girl circumcision, hand chopping, decapitation and stoning happened somewhere in the muslim world last week.

Revolutions are not engendered by moderates, although moderates end up carrying out the acts that will bring about the change under the guidance of the few. If muslims hit critical mass in the first world, it won’t be the moderates calling the shots sport.

Yes, "Stone Age" was a bit extreme, SOG - after all, Islam was spread by the steel sword, not the stone axe. Those early Muslims were quite advanced.

But you're on to something: genital mutilation is not really as trivial as the boy-snip, it's a brutal, vile deprivation of a woman's right. Amputation for theft is perhaps not Stone Age, but is surely way back there somewhere in the early pages of the Old Testament, as is stoning for adultery.

So as you ask, what's next ?

Here are some distant possibilities:

* gender segregation at public venues;

* demands for recognition, and welfare entitlements, for polygamy;

* recognition of shari'a inheritance laws which discriminate against women - well, CS, do they or don't they ?

* demands for separate schools - and curricula - for girls and boys, then separate universities, then excluding women from some 'immodest' courses like medicine;

* recognition of the right to marry one's donkey, or goat;

* re-criminalisation of homosexual acts;

* prohibition on teaching evolution in schools;

* extermination of geckos.

Surely there can't be any others ?

After all, it's a religion of peace and equality.

Cheers,

Jo

Fundamentalists exist in all religions.

It is unfortunate that some people tend
to lump all Islamists together as one group -
not allowing for individual differences,
language differences, and cultural differences.

To many Westerners, Islamic fundamentalism
is a scandalous return to medieval morality. It
conjures forth images of women behind veils, of
adulterers being stoned, of thieves having their
hands cut off, of public floggings and executions,
of martyrdom in holy wars, and, in extreme cases, of
political fanaticism exemplified in aircraft
hijackings and terrorist bombings.

This picture is rather distorted, for it is based on
what is newsworthy rather than on what is typical.

Lexi,

Yes, it's PART of the picture, but it IS part of the whole picture. People do get stoned. Thieves do get their hands chopped off. People are getting beheaded in Saudi Arabia. Womens' private parts ARE being mutilated and not just in the more backward parts of the Islamic world.

No, not everywhere, and not in every instance. There are nominal believers in all religions, who thankfully give only lip-service. There are good people in every religion, as well as utter b@stards.

But there ARE bombers, stoners, beheaders. They should not be shielded, and we shouldn't play some silly game of 'well, you do too.' It's all wrong, no matter who does it. One wrong does not give permission for another.

There are good people who are Muslim, and there are bombers who are Muslim. There is infinite variety and beauty in every human group - as well as evil. People in any group are not all the same.

As you said yourself ;)

Cheers,

Joe

Islamist cut their young girls while secularist murder the unborn.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

I'm glad that you agree that there are extremists in
every religion. And yes, bad acts should not be
condoned be they the sexual abuse of children,
the murders of doctors who commit abortions and the
bombing of clinics, as well as the encouragement of violence
and hate speech.

For the sake of balance it would therefore
be beneficial to society -
if the
media could point out some positive achievments
occasionally - instead of always focusing only on the
distorted images of what's newsworthy.

Tiny little straw man there, Lexi :)

Love,

Joe

Lexi,

Joe should know.....he's a veritable whiz at strawman construction.

: )

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

A tiny strawman?

Nah.

More like a pyromaniac in a field of strawmen.

Dear Poirot,

Ah well, some drink from the fountain of knowledge
others just gargle. ;-)

Flappety flappety flap - oh, look, is that a wounded goose ? No, two wounded gooses ! Poor things. I wonder where their nests are. Oh, I'm standing in one of them.

Thanks Lexi, you're close to the mark -

A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,
In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts ;
While from the bounded level of our mind
Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,
But, more advanced, behold with strange surprise
New distant scenes of endless science rise !
So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,
Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;
The eternal snows appear already past,
And the first clouds and mountains seem the last ;
But those attained, we tremble to survey
The growing labours of the lengthened way ;
The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,
Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !

I love those last few lines. Seeking knowledge is never-ending, isn't it ? What a brilliant poet Pope was. If only he had lived a bit longer. Life is so transient, and so precious.

Now, what was the topic again ?

Love,

Joe

if I may revert this thread to discussion of 'whats next', I note the recent decision by Queensland Transport Minister Emerson to exempt Sikh bicyclists from the law requiring the wearing of helmets. This follows a still unresolved case of an islamic female refusing to show her face to a member of the blue-uniformed thuggery but which will almost certainly end up in favour of said islamic. Interestingly, an application by christian women seeking exemption from photographic identification on the grounds that it constitutes a 'graven image' (thereby contravening the first of the Ten Commandments) was refused. Seems to me this is blatant discrimination on the basis of religious belief (and yes Martha, I HAVE read the relevant legislation). Theologically its questionable whether or not the Ten Commandments are still relevant today however the point remains that many christians & all jews / islamics believe they are, consequently all should be equally entitled to quote these scriptures as justification for whatever exemptions. I suggest that allowing special consideration ONLY for members of minority (in Australia) groups is morally wrong, unsafe (in the strict legal sense) & certain to create widespread angst on the part of those who believe they are discriminated against, PARTICULARLY when they feel they have a more legitimate claim.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

There's a wide-eyed owl
With a pointed nose
He has pointed ears
And claws for toes
He sits in a tree
And looks at you
Then flaps his wings and says
Who... Who... whooo!

It's good to question everything.
That's how we learn.

Yes, indeed, Lexi.

Here's a good question then:

* should somebody be allowed to be involved in a medical operation on you who hasn't washed his or her hands ?

On cultural, religious, anti-tactile, teenage-allergic-to-soap, olfactory, or any other grounds.

Simple question. Hard to get an answer to it but. Easier to flap around and divert :)

Love,

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

That depends on the circumstances -
doesn't it? If it was a matter of saving
someone's life and one wasn't able to
go through the usual process of following medical
hygiene procedure - then of course saving the life
would take precedence and a follow up procedure
could later follow when the circumstances became
available.

But then I'm sure that you know that being a wise old
owl and not a goose. ;-)

"Easier to flap around and divert."

Yep, like this http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5769&page=0#161672

Regarding your question about hand washing.....you do realise that hand-washing was never an issue....

Except in the wilds of Whac-a-mozzie Land and the online insularverse inhabited by fearful Westerners and sundry cranks who post complete bollocks for the eager digestion of their audience-cum-cnspiracy nuts.

Lexi,

Just ever so slightly ducking the qiuestion, dear ....... in the story that started off this thread, they're talking about a nurse in a English hospital.

So here's the question for you, pwersonally:

"Should a nurse in a standard hospital be allowed to participate in a surgical procedure on YOU without washing his hands ?"

Or her hands.

Or should they be told to bugger off and try some other job ?

Underlying question, begging to be asked:

* are there limits to cultural excuses for outrageous behavior ?

And under that, another question,

* should we pander to the backward cultural practices of people, precisely because they are NOT Western ? i.e. (in some weird world) therefore good ?

Happy cogitating, Lexi :)

Joe

and still he continues.

The so-called story that started this thread has been completely discredited...

It emanated from a dodgy site, and was whipped up so that people like you could pick it up and carry it around with them and wave it about occasionally when their own powers of fiction are flagging.

"It has no basis in fact."

(Are you all there?)

Thank you, Poirot,

So if the story WERE true, you would condemn the practice ? You would demand - hypothetically, as it turns out - that anybody working in an operating theatre, would have to wash their hands ? You would fearlessly stand up to cultural tosh ?

Good on you, Poirot !

Joe

What a silly man you're turning out to be, Loudmouth."

"....if the story were true..."

It's not bloody true....

What are you banging on about?

Any culture which has the means to undertake surgery would have a pretty good idea of antisepsis.

Nurses and doctors from which culture, do you suggest, trained and qualified to be employed within the British health system would pose a proposition to health authorities on cultural grounds to do away with hand washing in surgical procedure?

A ridiculous and puerile hypothesis.

Hi Poirot,

Thanks for the insults, I can take them :)

So, hypothetically, in case anything like this ever actually came up, or something equivalent, you wouldn't support it ? Even though someone claimed it was a traditional cultural practise ?

i.e. even if someone waved the word 'culture' at you, you still wouldn't support it ?

Good on you, Poirot !

No diverting now >:)

Cheers :)

Joe

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Poirot pointed out the fact that the problem
doesn't exist.

Therefore I can only assume that you're simply
stirring.

I'll leave you to it.

Beautifully diverted, my sweet goose !

Love,

Joe

Nothing like that ever would come up....Loudmouth.

Are you suggesting that people "of any culture" trained in Western medicine would propose the non washing of hands in surgical procedure (or any medical procedure, for that matter)?

I'd love for you to explain how any culture could influence the British health authorities in the way you suggest. I hope you'll spell it out, because I'm all ears.

Notwithstanding that there are in the world people who know nothing of "germs" and who would not know the true "scientific" value of washing hands (although they would know the value of washing in general)....they aren't employed in British hospitals.

Do you think people who aren't scientifically educated in antisepsis would be employed by the British medical authorities? And just in case you do, do you also believe that they would be capable of any serious attempt to block hand washing in hospitals on cultural grounds

Lexi,

Of course, is right - you're stirring.

But I am amused at the positively pathetic supposition that you're employing.....try harder next time.

Just have to say...

Loudmouth puts up a baseless hypothesis.

and when Lexi points out that the problem doesn't exist.....

Loudmouth feels it's time to exercise his "diversion" line.

...his oft used and hackneyed line that he deploys every time someone out debates him or shines a spotlight on his shonky debating tactics.

He's a legend.

So that's a 'no' then, Poirot ?

Give up, Joe.

Your soapbox is made of cardboard.

Hi Poirot,

So that's a 'yes' then ? You would hypothetically support somebody's right not to wash their hands, on cultural or ideological grounds ?

Cheers :)

Joe

Just what I expected from a bloke spruiking from atop a cereal box.

Exhibit 1 - "....shonky debating tactics..."

Pathetic

Hi Poirot,

So you've never, ever contemplated a hypothetical, a 'what if' sort of question ?

What if my kid was silly enough to drop Ecstasy?' 'What if my daughter did something silly in the back of a Suzuki?' - that sort of thing. Never ?

Geoffrey Robertson could go out of business at this rate.

Okay, I'll let it rest there. Good luck with life.

Joe

Loudmouth,

Of course I've contemplated hypotheticals.

For instance, recently I've pondered a scenario whereby a certain poster drops his penchant for all sorts of smart-arsed strategies when he's posting,......and decides instead to converse in a more sincere and less disingenuous manner. He'd drop the incessant strawmen, the sarcasm, the snide stirring and general disparaging tenor of his posts.

He'd probably get a much better reception in my hypothetical.

Given we agreed that the "meat" of my initial posturing is corrupted, and I threw my hands up on the first page.....what did we fill the other 23 pages with?

While I am here:

Today in Sydney two men, one in his twenties and one in his fifties, were charged with the sexual assault of two women and one pubescent girl in a shopping mall.

The two Sri Lankan men who arrived by boat at Xmas Island are on protection visas and billeted in a suburb nearby the mall.

If you recall we had the sexual assault of a girl at Macquarie Uni a few months ago. The model citizen they charged with that one was on a protection visa after landing on Xmas Island from Sri Lanka.

I heard a cop say in an interview that they had no criminal record in Australia,...I thought that have made a good start given they have only been here a few months.

He also said that they will check with authorities in Sri Lanka…What for, when these guys destroyed their documents you can be assured they changed their names to enter Australia.

Once again citizens of this nation have had their perceptions and comfort zones destroyed by our ridiculous pandering government. These women and the others sexually assaulted on Gillards watch by illegal unknowns will carry the psychological scars forever.

But many on this forum do not give a tinkers cuss.
As long as their naïve and pathetically unrealistic perception of social engineering outcomes prevail, they will defend with rhetoric their personal view…or until they or someone close is a victim of someone who would definitely not be here except for the Labor clowns

Hi SoG,

I just came across this on an Indigenous site:

"The difficulty in many regions today is to find “doctors” who are “men of high degree,” who have not only learned the ritual and manipulative actions they should perform, but also have had the spiritual experience that gives them the strong or inner eye, the addition of magical “substances” to their “inside,” and the assistance of personal totems. The depth of their knowledge and the essence of their power lie in this experience. They have been through great fear and even “death” and can impart confidence to those who have similar trials."

Do you reckon those 'men of high degree' would believe in 'germ theory' ? or in the need to wash their hands before operating ?

Yep, these ideas are still around, in 2013.

Cheers,

Joe

Not employed in the British health system either.