While it is generally agreed that the Syrian government cannot win, the stalemate means that the war toll of civilians continuously increases without an end in sight.

Now that there is clear evidence of the Syrian government forces using chemical weapons, and terrorist forces such as Hezbollah getting involved and expanding the war. It is clear that the democratic countries can no longer stand by and watch the slaughter of innocents.

If they don't have the stomach to put pilots on the line, all that is required is a few hundred drones to knock out the Syrian heavy weapons and tip the scale to end the conflict.

The west SM has the heart and will to get involved.
BUT as in other so called Arab spring country,s they do not know who the good blokes are.
And it is increasingly so even in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Nothing wrong with sending drones just who to the target?

Belly,

While the good guys may be difficult to determine, Hassad is certainly one of the worst. While many would love to see Syria turned to a wasteland, I think some form of democracy deserves a chance.

Ok warhawks, think this through, what will happen to Lebanon and Iraq if Assad falls? If they spiral into civil war what about Israel and Jordan? You guys are using the same crazy logic that started the first and second wars, the little brushfire conflicts, civil wars and ethnic troubles are fanned by Western White Knights into a huge conflagration...hey fine, if you want another 100 million people to die and possibly see nuclear weapons used again be my guest, they're only wogs after all, right?

Good luck keeping Russia out of the picture. If you guys like killing so much, why don't you join the jihad yourselves? Plenty of US arms over there for you to choose from.

Oh and I'd like to see the clear evidence of chemical weapons use!
preferably not from a US or Israeli source if you mind?

SM while the dills name is Assad and the other posts highlight the trouble in who is the good one, I agree the world needs him gone.

Shadow Minister, as the good reactionary he is, once more offers us the conservative mantra KILL,KILL,KILL. Without a second thought he prepossess we counter the murderous Syrian regime, with an equally outrageous killing spree by the American imperialist and their new army of 'drones'.
What about this; "It is clear that the democratic countries can no longer stand by and watch the slaughter of innocents." You are proposing that the so called "democratic countries", rather than watching, join in slaughter of innocents as per Afganistan and Iraq, no doubt.
I note the comment "If they don't have the stomach to put pilots on the line", WELL! SM a perfect opportunity for you to become a modern day Biggles, put yourself and the rest of that motley bunch of conservatives, who masquerade as the Liberal Party and their supporters, "on the line". You can lead the charge into Syria. It will make a refreshing change from all the previous wars, and there have been many, your ilk have promoted. Where once upon a time the home grown war mongers sat comfortably in their mansions in Tookak Melbourne, or Vaucluse in Sydney, counting their war profits, they will be in the front line, possibly under the command of Corporal Shadow Minister.

RM,

Read my post, I called for the elimination of Assad's heavy weapons that he is using to massacre his own civilians. The small number of casualties will by compensated many fold by the number of civilians that survive.

Russia is already involved in selling heavy weapons to Assad, but I think you over estimate the extent to which Russia will back up a regime that uses chemical weapons against its civilians.

As for proof of the use of chemical weapons, who would you consider credible, The Russians, the Syrians?

Paul,

The good socialist would rather see Comrade Assad maintained and protect the handful of tank and artillery crews than the thousands of civilians that they are shooting. Paul is quite happy to see hundreds of thousands die as long as they are not killed by "imperialists", but by good socialists.

I am a conservative and an atheist. I really do not understand why we are supporting the Syrian rebels, the greater part of which are Islamists connected with Al Qaeda. I see no benefit in replacing Assad's admittedly illiberal regime with a yet more illiberal Islamist Government. Can anyone explain this to me?

I am confused, I have been told that Al Quiada is Shia but they are
opposed to Assad who has Iranian Shia support.
I have been told that Saudi Arabia population is Shia but government
is Sunni.

I don't think we should support either branch of Islam.
Let them get stuck in and we will sit on the sidelines in case one side
or the other wins.
I prefer them both to lose.

They will not change, this war has been going on since Mohammad died
in the 7th century.
They only attack us to divert their own battles away from each other.
This time it is only an inter religious war so we do not need to get involved.

Send the Drones into Syria?
And cause the biggest refugee crisis on the face
of this planet.
Right, that makes sense.

Seriously, Australia is taking the lead - and joining
other nations by acting through humanitarian aid and non-lethal
support to the Syrian Opposition.

The following link explains what is being done and why:

http://www.news.com.au/national-news/bob-carr-reveals-plan-to-take-lead-role-in-aid-for-syrian-refugees/story-fncynjr2-1226625447328

Lexi,

I see logic is not your strong point!

The civil war which has as yet no end in sight is causing tens of thousands of civilian casualties, and millions of internal and external refugees. The point is to stop the war, and allow refugees to return.

In Lybia, Gaddafi's army was stopped by Nato's precision strikes, so the purpose of the drones is to knock out the heavy weapons that cause the huge civilian casualties.

Hi Shadow Minister,

I actually thought that logic was one of my
strong points. For example I've never been
impressed with people who claim to be superior
in their logic and consider themselves "learned."
As Benjamin Franklin once said, "He was so learned
that he could name a horse in nine languages;
so ignorant that he bought a cow to ride on."

But enough jokes and back on topic...

The following link may be of interest to you
regarding Syria and why drones aren't such a
good idea:

http://theconversation.com/the-conflict-at-home-and-abroad-australian-involvement-in-syria-10623

SM, was that a joke, "the good socialist would rather see Comrade Assad". You can take ownership of Assad and the Baath Party, like Saddam Hussein, a one time buddy of the American imperialists, they both were/are fascist from the right of the political spectrum out there with some of those you may well admire.

Lexi,

Perhaps you are logical, but failed to actually read my post, as your response had very little to do with what I had been saying.

I am in favour of stopping the war, as it continues, the opposition gets more radicalised, and the government more vicious. Even when Comrade Assad loses, the Al Qaeda backed opposition is unlikely to improve life in Syria.

The war needs a circuit breaker to tip the balance and give Syria a chance.

Paul,

Wiggle as you may, But Comrade Assad has always been aligned with the Soviets and were supposedly "Socialist" enough to engage in occasional purges.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I've got to confess I very rarely read your entire posts.
I used to - but not lately.

Drones would however not be a good look for Australia -
who's currently joining in with other countries
to send humanitarian aid to Syria.

If there's a change of government after the September
election - they may think that drones are a good way
to go - especially if they're cheaper then humanitarian
aid. For now however - humanitarian aid
is what is on this government's agenda.

>>For now however - humanitarian aid is what is on this government's agenda.<<

Just one of the reasons I'm glad to live in Australia. But the Western government that is relevant to this discussion is the U.S. government and their approach to foreign policy is a little bit different:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mwfULpr6bE

I have no particular love for the U.S. Marine Corps but I would still prefer to see every single drone in the world destroyed at once than see one dumb-ass, bigoted, red-necked grunt get grazed by bullet. Because the grunts are (perhaps barely) people but the drones are just machines.

Letting robots fight our wars for us makes sense because then fewer people get hurt. Every person you replace on the battlefield with a robot is one less person who can get shot. And people not getting shot - regardless of which side they're on - is frigging awesome. So let's have as many drones as possible.

Cheers,

Tony

Lexi,

As the only country that has the capability to send in a large contingent of drones is the US of course I did not mean Australia.

Everyone is too scared to do anything wrong, and so the default action is inaction coupled with intense tut tutting from the sidelines. The last example was in Rwanda where more than a million people were butchered and Australia, the US and everyone did nothing (wrong) where a small intervention with peace keepers could have saved hundreds of thousands.

I honestly believe that in Syria we reached this point some time ago.

Bazz, Al Qaeda is a Sunni movement, they are deadly enemies of the Shia, Alawite and Christian minorities in Syria,Hezbollah are the main Shia resistance group in the region. The U.S only supports Sunni fighters, via it's proxies Qatar and Saudi Arabia, so all these Al Qaeda groups running around are effectively U.S "irregulars" or mercenaries.

Raw mustard,
Agreed, the U.S and Israel are not credible sources of information, they lie about everything, notice the initial alarm was raised by an Israeli "analyst", not a military official.
Did you catch 4 Corners the other week when they interviewed the U.S intelligence sources for the Iraq invasion?

SM, in your naivety, you like so many gullible people fall for the American spin. Rwanda had no strategic or economic interest for the US imperialists, unlike the Middle East witch is loaded with oil to be exploited for huge profits by the multinationals. The US military complex is only there to serve the interest of global capital. Have you watched too many reruns of 'Superman' and now truly believe Uncle Sam is in fact fighting for "Truth, Justice and the American Way."
P/S I am all in favour of the Australian drones going into Syria, yes send in Drone Abbott, Drone Hockey, Drone Howard etc, we certainly don't need them here.

Dear Shadow Minister,

What I have difficulty in grasping is - how can one
tell who the "enemy" is over there? That is, who to
tartget? I'm just as much against human lives being
lost as you are. But how can machines know who's who?
The situation is not so clear-cut. I fear running the
risk of having innocent people being killed by machines
- including Australians who are there helping out.

Actually Paul I do agree that the reluctance to intervene in Rwanda had something to do with its strategic insignificance, but also in part because it is a largely inaccessible country. So none of the imperialists such as China, Russia, Indonesia etc were interested.

Maybe we should send in our resident space kadet ol' Brown eye Bob to call in our alien buddies.

Lexi,

I missed your post.

If the drones focus mainly on heavy weapons with anti tank weapons, and use intelligence from satellites the chance of civilian casualties from drone strikes is almost zero.

Dear Shadow Minister,

If Americans decide to go ahead with this -
where does that leave Australia and our
humanitarian program? And won't this result
in more refugees running towards our shores
trying to get away from all the killing?

Lexi,

For the 3rd time, the point of this is to end the war from which people are fleeing.

Knocking out the tanks and artillery that are shelling civilian areas makes the civilians safer, and ending the war means that people can go home.

OK Jay, I had always thought that AQ were Sunni but someone who seemed
to know about it all told me otherwise.

Can't understand the US giving any sort of support to AQ, unless it was poisoned food.
I say let them keep at it and let them sort it out.
They never learn and they have no concept of compromise and they never
will until they stop marrying their cousins.

No, stay out of syria. One side is as bad as the other, there are no goodies. They are killing each other and that is their business. As shown in Lebanon, they hide amonst civilians so civilians are bound to be killed.

Actually I find it more interesting to think about where they got the chemical weapons that is reported to be used. Never heard anything about Syria having manufactured chemical weapons or UN inspectors having a look.

Saddam used chemical weapons against the Kurds and just maybe he did not use all he had. Could it be that he trucked them next door for storage when the inspectors were there.

We will see what developes in this regard.

Dear Shadow Minister,

Thanks for your patience and I get the point
that you're making.

I've just come across this link that may be of
interest to you. It's taken from the Los Angeles Times:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/15/world/la-fg-cia-syria-20130316

Stay out of Syria.

It is certain to result in tears and even more bloodshed.

'Surgical' strikes are impossible, do not obviate the need for soldiers on the ground and in so doing any external force is immediately involved in the very worst war of all, civil war waged in built-up areas. The only obvious targets are the 'invaders' from outside.

Nor can democracy be 'facilitated', read as imposed.

The US and Australia know squat about Syria. That can be said of all outside of the native population.

SM

I missed your post.

If the drones focus mainly on heavy weapons with anti tank weapons, and use intelligence from satellites the chance of civilian casualties from drone strikes is almost zero. How close to almost zero, a million! Can you gives us some idea of how many babies will burn, only 10 or will it be 100, a 1000, maybe 10,000. Will it be more or less that were killed in outrageous Boston bombings? If so will we see an extended broadcast of the channel 9 news. I think not, and I wounder why. Are some peoples lives worth more than other?
Do you thing it would be a good idea to get Colon Powell to address the UN and tell the world all about Assad's Weapons of Mass Delusion, he could have pic's and all that to reinforce his spiel!
p/s The Soviet Union never ever supported Bashar al-Assad, they were history long before this ratbag came to power.

I move that we send the Greens across to Syria to sort it out --there are plenty of DRONES in that lot.

SPQR, No second prize think up you own funny lines, I got in first. with;
"I am all in favour of the Australian drones going into Syria, yes send in Drone Abbott, Drone Hockey, Drone Howard etc, we certainly don't need them here."
Your little effort; "I move that we send the Greens across to Syria to sort it out --there are plenty of DRONES in that lot." pathetic, borderline plagiarism!

One of the problems I find with conservatives, no sense of humor.

Paul 1405,

On the charge of plagiarism I protest my innocence. I rarely read your posts in depth, since I find them largely to consist of cut and pasted slogans from Green propaganda leaflets. And on the charge no sense of humour, I also plead not guilty, heck, after-all I call(ed) the Greens "a party" --and that is a huge joke.

Now, about us sending drones to Syria --just so we can finalize the bookings-- would your prefer to be seated near to Christine Milne at the front or close to Bob Brown at the rear of the charter flight?

Paul,

"If the drones focus mainly on heavy weapons with anti tank weapons....Can you gives us some idea of how many babies will burn, only 10 or will it be 100, a 1000, maybe 10,000."

Given the Syrian army's thousand or so heavy weapons incl tanks, armoured cars, artillery etc, it depends how many babies are riding in them at the time. You work it out.

I would hazard a guess that more civilians and babies are burning at the other end of the cannon.

Bazz,
I think the confusion has arisen over the last little while because of the assertion by the RCMP that the Toronto train plotters were linked to "Al Qaeda in Iran". Apparently there are Sunni militants operating in the border areas of Iran and Afghanistan but they're basically bandits and the Iranian secret police do a pretty good job of suppressing their activity. A lot of people on the "conspiracy" side of the alternative media jumped on that statement as proof of a "false flag" attack to drum up support for a NATO attack on Iran but the explanation is pretty straightforward.

SM, you know as well as I do that whenever the Americans attack there is always some 'collateral damage' a euphemism the Yanks use for murdering the innocent. How many have they murdered delivering their version of 'freedom and democracy' throughout the world in the last 100 years, millions! Lets hope the day never comes when the Yanks want to deliver a bit of that 'freedom and democracy' on Australia. Don't think that just because Australia sucks up to the Americans we will be safe, not so.

Better off joining this mob.

http://www.amnesty.org.au/get-involved/?gclid=COiFibOj7rYCFYxcpQodbDgA4A

Actually Paul, I don't know that and neither do you.

Whether the US or anyone else civilian casualties are largely dependent on the type of warfare. Guerrilla war, especially where the insurgents use the civilians as cover are especially difficult. However, as shown in Libya tipping the balance by aiming at military hardware lead to very few civilian deaths.

Considering nearly 100 civilians are dying a day, this is a life saving measure.

I think it would be wise to stay out of the conflict in Syria. It would be impossible to distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys. They all seem potentially bad and the reported 200 Australians fighting with the rebels are not going to bring any good intentions back to Australia on their return.
Maybe the drones would be better employed as a detriment to the boatloads of the unstable and least desirable that this conflict will send our way. Keating and Fraser accepted some 75,000 displaced Lebanese from refugee camps in Syria during the 1970’s. These people seeded the problems faced in South West Sydney today.