Pericles

'I'm not sure you can paint that particular operation, which has already made over a dozen arrests, as being "quite", as you so quaintly describe it. '

what after 40, 50 years? you mean their was no cover up or just simply an acceptance of a common practice?

Dear David,

<<When you mention that religion has a higher level of morality than the state I disagree.>>

What I said is that RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, in general, have higher, not lower, level of morality than states expect.

I would be lying had I claimed that religious institutions have a similar level of morality as individual religious people do.

<<I assume that some religious people are honest in what they say.>>

While some, as we know from history, have been lying, pledging allegiance to the state in order to survive (just as many non-religious others did as well), without meaning a word, others, I presume, are merely careless or thoughtless, failing to note the implication that if they submit to the state, they may later find themselves in conflict with serving God.

<<In fact, some religions such as Bahai'i specifically tell their communicants that they should accept the authority of the state.>>

I would have to see the exact context. Perhaps it was mentioned under duress in Muslim countries, or perhaps it only relates to trifling issues such as speed limits. I can't see for example Bahai people stopping to pray because state-legislation made it illegal, but I could quite possibly see them continuing to pray in secret.

<<I think the world would have have better without religious wars.>>

But there HAVEN'T EVER BEEN any religious wars!

What you mistakenly refer to as "religious" wars, were wars between institutions which CLAIMED to be religious, PRETENDING to be acting on relgion's behalf!

Ask yourself: would Jesus Christ ever support the crusades?

<<When religion uses the state to enforce morality the result can be oppression, misery and corruption.>>

Right on - there's nothing worse and those who such collude with the devil to abuse the name of God, should be hanged!

<<One example of that in the US was Prohibition.>>

Remember that the only way to do any good and follow God's ways, is by free choice, even at the face of temptation. Those who forcibly deny the option of sin, at the same stroke deny the possibility of virtue.

Runner this question is not to you, it would be a waste.
But it is not to stirr, but to truely ask a question that has lived in me all my life.
Including my total, lost now, commitment to Christ.
Question?
*Why is it so, why are so many telling us about God, any God, the very worst type for that job*.
I was not thinking about the offending Priests but they offer a reason, besides runners posts, for me to say my question needs an answer.

Dear Yuyutsu,

You wrote: “What I said is that RELIGIOUS PEOPLE, in general, have higher, not lower, level of morality than states expect.”

People’s morality should be no business of the state. All that the state should require is that people obey its laws. If one thinks the law is grossly immoral than one should not obey it. That has absolutely nothing to do with religion. Morality does not depend on religion. However, much of what is called religious morality is pretty pointless. Singing praises to an imaginary being who apparently is emotionally insecure and in need of praise. Worrying about what one consenting adult is poking into the orifice of another consenting adult. Worrying about eating the wrong food at the wrong time. Worrying about the difficulty in believing a bit of nonsense mumbojumbo. Much of religious morality is utterly trivial. Morality is one thing, and religion is another. They should not be confused. If one is moral because one thinks some supernatural superdaddy is looking over one’s shoulder I think that is not as good as doing the right thing simply because that is what a good person does.

I have been involved in various actions I thought of as moral. Protesting the slaughter of people in war. Protesting racism. Other people have done far more. Both religious and non-religious people have been involved in these actions, and I noticed no particular difference in the morality of religious and non-religious people.

You asked if Jesus Christ would have supported the Crusades. Jesus is largely a creature of myth with the myth taking on accounts of other wonder workers of the time. Whether a legendary entity would have supported a war in his name is a pointless question.

I would rather not concern myself with serving a non-existent entity such as a god but would try to live the best life I can for myself and others. Be kind and question authority.

I see no reason to believe in a devil, god or other supernatural mumbojumbo.

I just love marketing,

Each time a new Pope is announced they are straight into the new “brand image”. It’s not as though the new Pope had time or foreknowledge to lay out his policy platform, it was already there for him to annunciate.

The greatest brand image problem that Catholics have to deal with is sexual abuse. So why is it surprising that the first policy proclamation is aimed in that direction?

What I don’t get is why Catholics don’t get it?

My sister is a devout Catholic and told me recently just how much Pope Francis has “done” to repair that brand damage. Hello, “done”? What has been done? Oh, I forgot, Pope Francis has identified with those in peril from the “shirt lifting brigade”.

Silly me, I thought the foundation of the Catholic faith was based upon the rock of St. Peter. “Give away all thy worldly goods and serve the poor”, unless of course it means giving up the enormous wealth of the Vatican State, the privilege of a selected and unelected few, the international political Statehood, the wealth of the individual, the power to influence world events, the modern crucifixion of those who oppose the faith, men wearing dresses, embezzling international banking markets, investing in condom manufacturers and the weapons industry, the hanging whistleblowers like Aldo Morrow under Tower Bridge in London, mounting a Legal challenge against the jailing of the Bishop of Chicago for money laundering, and trying to subvert common/national law with Cannon Law.

It is instructive that following the discovery of vast energy resources in the South Georgia and the Falklands, the yet to be Pope Francis declared that these territories should be ceded by the British government to Argentina. No self promotion, political favors, fear or favor in such comments of course, just free thinking independent, non political comment?

I would never say these things to my sister because I love her dearly and respect her faith.

The nice thing about being a recovering Catholic from the age of 19 is, that I am now free to think for myself.

Dear David,

<<People’s morality should be no business of the state.>>

We are certainly in agreement here!

<<All that the state should require is that people obey its laws.>>

On what grounds?

<<If one thinks the law is grossly immoral than one should not obey it.>>

So what about when the law is only subtly immoral, or when the law as written is OK most of the time, but not under special circumstances that it doesn't recognise (or cannot recognise because it would violate "political-correctness")?

People who are naturally moral and/or strive to be moral, should stick with morality and not hid the law of the state.

<<Morality is one thing, and religion is another.>>

Certainly so, but morality is practically a requisite for religious success. A religious person tries to practice morality as best they can because immorality would hinder their spiritual progress.

Anyone who practices morality, even with no conscious reference to God, or anything supernatural, is well ahead on their religious path and that rare person who can truly and consistently be "doing the right thing simply because that is what a good person does", is only one step away from God.

<<and I noticed no particular difference in the morality of religious and non-religious people.>>

It may well be that those people claiming to be religious whom you met were only superficially following some religious teachings.

<<I would rather not concern myself with serving a non-existent entity>>

No problem: if you can serve God without concern, so much the better!

<<I see no reason to believe in a devil, god or other supernatural mumbojumbo.>>

These are merely techniques that can help most people so long as it is not yet in their habitual nature to be moral at all times. If you are able to practice morality under all circumstances, even under all hardships and tribulations, then I would say that these techniques are not for you.