In the 60s at Sydney University there was a cafe that rivalled the great cafes of the Paris Left Bank or New York's Greenwich Village for lively discussion of arts, current events, philosophy - and sex. Gemaine Greer, John Bell, Bob Ellis, Albie Thoms, myself, and many later-famous people hung there. Online interaction is wonderful, but cafe society is exciting too. Come back grotty, lively, cheap, ugly cafes whose walls are covered with posters and photos and whose patrons have minds!

Clem Gorman

whose patrons have minds!
clem gorman,
you mean those indoctrinated unwavering ones ?

I agree, Clem.

I doubt this would be happening in any universities today.

Individual>> whose patrons have minds!
clem gorman,
you mean those indoctrinated unwavering ones ?<<

Bit tough Indy, correct but tough.
Clem he has a point, in a pub you get pub philosophy, in a yacht club you get yacht club philosophy, in an under graduate watering hole you get undergraduate philosophy…we hang with like minded people so the direction of outcomes runs along the tracks laid down.

But in saying that I spent many happy hours in uni bars seeking out those who think like me….I failed…I got extreme right or extreme left. I personally found bohemia away from the uni haunts.

You’re livin in the past …

Your comrades have moved to the big quad up the road and hold well paid, tenured positions. Now-a-days when they’re not pushing “whiteness theory ” to impressible undergrads they’re fielding picket lines.

Can you believe it, this semester has only been up and running a little over a month and there’s already been three day-long strikes.

Clint Spqr-person

Bit tough Indy, correct but tough.
sonofgloin,
Yeah well, I would refrain from being so sarcastic but as long as I'm made to pay for their coffee I feel entitled to air my sentiments.

Well if that's the type who frequent uni cafes, we should ban them forth with.

I wonder what they served in the place4 that led top such rat bager developing.

Cop that Clem!
The most fixed minded immovable poster takes a shot at you, for his sin!
Well we need to think about that,how would we get to the sleazy but enjoyable place?
We could all join double face book, and tell the world every thing, even what hand we used as we left the little house.
Or we can stay right here enjoy the good with the better, even the bad.
Did you notice in those far gone days strangers did not get a start?
My age lets me remember such places and the Domain speakers forums, enjoyable but not ever day.

Belly>>and the Domain speakers forums,<<

Belly do you remember "Webster" from the Domain?
God the old Domain, every Sunday I would be down there listening to the speakers, and some seasoned hecklers. That was defiately old Australia compared to the new Australia I now see before me.

Intellectual, a person who primarily uses intelligence in either a professional or an individual capacity, they often have an academic background.

Intellect refers to the ability of the mind to come to correct conclusions about what is true or real.

Either way these intelligent, intellectual elites are often associated with such beliefs as CAGW when they are not studying Arts, Politics or Sociology. They have departed from the café scene to take up university tenures.

They have been replaced with Internet Café’s where one can change the world with just a click on their iPad’s. It’s so much easier nowadays to be a publicly funded waste of space.

Where on earth would we be as a society without debates about Germaine Greer and Bob Ellis?

Yes SOG and he was fun.
I should not surprise you, was as much a heckler than any thing .
But not with Webster!
Spindoc, I think the intellectuals came from all sides.
I never shared the Communist view they should be the first to die.
Abbott in his DLP days was, in my view one, you need not agree but the ability to think is classless.

Dear Clem,

It would be great to be a time-traveller
and sit, listen and observe the greats
that you refer to - In Paris - Simone de Beauvoir,
Jean Paul Sartre, in New York at the Algonquin -
Dorothy Parker and her literary crowd, and in
Melbourne Mirka Mora et al.

However, there are "Meetup Groups" in Melbourne
that may be interesting as well. One never knows.

I imagine it would be difficult to replicate
the days gone past. They were different times.
Times of struggle - which I imagine stimulated
thought and discussion. It's hard to do that
when one has an enviable life-style and has
so many choices to make as to what to wear (kidding).
The mind then tends to focus on unimportant things.
A. Solzhenitsyn - lost his passion, and his writing
suffered when he left the Soviet Union. He admitted
that when he only had one shirt to wear - he could
concentrate on what was important. When he had to
make the choice between many shirts - what was
important - was misplaced.

I guess things have to be taken in context - and the
times we live in and other such considerations.
Perhaps there's a reason for the old adage of -
"suffering for one's art.?" The passion needs to be
there.

I have heard that Intellectuals have on occasions (apparently) managed to be of benefit to society after someone had managed to block their normal vision with sense & pragmatism.

Ah yes, the heritage of every Australian is to be
exactly the same. To quote Philip Adams:

" Dull, self-satisfied, and
joylessly conformist. Not simply null and boring,
but nullarboring. Not merely mindless, but
lobotomised."

Of course thinking does involve
taking some considerable risks - "but almost every
human advance is based on experiment, innovation,
and adventure."

Cheers.

Dear Lexi,

I am currently immersed in a book by Australian author Steve Toltz called 'A Fraction of the Whole'. Actually buckled in might be more appropriate, not entirely sure I am enjoying the ride, however it has struck me as a very Australian novel. It can be light, trite, and in places not that well written. While it attempts to explore the depths of the human condition, the humour keeps getting in the way. It kind of acknowledges the fact that even in the worst of it our problems are pretty first world and flags the truth that our most profound are at best eccentrics and at worst destructive madmen.

That is not to say that in other settings they can't be lauded without our tall poppy syndrome pissing on their pedestals, which is why so many of our 'intellectuals' head overseas to where their gifts/foibles can find fertile ground for growth and appreciation.

Most Australian's have an innate suspicion of them that is not without foundation as Toltz explains through his primary character;

“The Greeks for example, had fine ideas about how to run a society that are still valid today, especially if you think slavery is wonderful. As for the rest of them, all unquestionable geniuses, I have to admit their enthusiasm for and celebration of one kind of human being (themselves) and their fear and revulsion of the other kind (everyone else) grated on my nerves. It is not just because they petitioned for the halting of universal education lest it 'ruin thinking', or that they did everything they could to make their art unintelligible to most people, but they always said unfriendly things like “Three cheers for the inventors of poison gas” (DH Lawrence) and “If we desire a certain type of civilisation and culture then we must exterminate the sort of people who don't fit into it” (GB Shaw) and “Sooner or later we must limit the families of the unintelligent classes” (Yeats) and “The great majority of men have no right to existence, but are a misfortune to higher men” (Nietzsche).”

Cont...

Cont...

Perhaps the deep philosophical works of the modern era need pinched and desperate lives reeling from holocausts or the like to explore and expound the human condition. It might just be a simple fact that Australia does not willingly offer that environment, either because of its physical expanses or because its inhabitants have a different take on the world. We don't get overly excited about patriotism, nor grand ideas, nor pervasive ideologies, nor our intellectuals much to their chagrin on occasion.

In many, many ways we are living blessed lives and while our stay-at-home intellectuals and writers like Tim Winton might lift the skirts on some of the banality and shallowness they do it with affection and a capacity to recognise it as almost celebratory since we, compared to so many less fortunate peoples, have little need to be shown the way to the promised land, we are in it, we have found our happinesses, more often than not without the help of our intellectuals (they had usually nicked off anyway) and that was what got them so often angry with us.

Well too bad.

Clive James may fancy himself a poet but so was Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadži&#263;. Pol Pot taught French literature and Hitler was a writer and a painter. Perhaps Australians are right to keep our 'gifted' from getting ahead of themselves so if Adams sees 'laid-back' as lobotomised that is his right, just don't let him get a chance to do anything about it.

Toltz for PM.

Oh wait! He is a writer too.

" Dull, self-satisfied, and
joylessly conformist. Not simply null and boring,
but nullarboring. Not merely mindless, but
lobotomised."

What an apt description of Philip Adams!

Clem some, not all, of your detractors are so because they fear they are not intellectuals!
Now if enough of us hit the bin and donate to the site we could re make those speakers corners and cafe,s right here.
We do now but could do better if we funded it.
I am more than surprised that CONSERVATIVES, think intelligence/intellectuals are all from the left?
Surely a few of them are intelligent?

SPQR,
Phil Adams is a perfect example of an intellectual, good talker. Anyone know who's actually giving him money to live for that apart from the (our money our) ABC ?

Dear csteele,

I should have explained the context of the Philip Adams
quote. He was remembering Australia BEFORE
migration when it was indeed - "dull, self-satisfied, and
joylessly conformist." And from some of the posts on
this thread - it would appear that some would prefer
that it would have remained so. I've been watching
the series on the history of "immigration," in this
country - and things like the White Australian Policy,"
was not something that I would consider as being "laid-back,"
thinking or attitude.

But in some respects I guess you could be right.
I've found an article written years ago ...

"The heritage of every Australian: the right to be
exactly the same as everybody else...It's not easy to
win this position in a community like Hurstfield.
From time to time, you feel like speaking out about
things, saying something that's different for a change,
until you realize - sensibly - that it's a lot easier
to make yourself like something you really hate
rather than say you hate it and have everybody go
crooked on you."

Times do change for some, not for others.

"dull, self-satisfied, and joylessly conformist."
Lexi,
Isn't that exactly what's been happening under Labor since big Goaf ? Screwing us to the limit & at the same time telling us what a free democratic society we are ?
It's uncomfortably reminiscient of "ARBEIT MACHT FREI" don't you think ?

Dear Individual,

As far as work's concerned
here's an extract from that period taken
from a letter written to the Sunday Telegraph:

"Guess what's the latest status symbol among
freedom-loving, fair-go young Australians?
Going on the dole, that's what mate. Some young
blokes who have just finished their Higher School
Certificate examinations are making less than token
efforts to get jobs. Then they show a lot more energy
in dashing off to the dole queue. I know one young
bloke, normally industrious enough, who went to work
for a day, sacked himself and told his father he would
be better off on unemployment relief. His reason was
that 10 of his mates had gone on the dole. After stern
words from his father he starts a new job tomorrow,
in a brewery."

Dear Philip Adam's devotee,

There was one thing I should have added to Philip's little epithet *clueless*.

With regard to:
<<I should have explained the context of the Philip Adams quote. He was remembering Australia BEFORE migration >>

As un-PC and shocking, as it will seem to you. Australia has had “migration” for at least 40,000 years.So those “dull, self-satisfied, and joylessly conformist” pre – migrationists could only have been a bunch of diprotodons --and, if they hadn’t been so blasé about our early immigrants perhaps they might not have gone extinct.

With regard to your article about Hurstville this is how it would sound if it was written today:
“The local mosque issued its call to pray at 5am and woke me. There were gang fights in the street last night and the resident of number 11 was gunned down . Some say he was selling coke in another gangs territory . There been threats of retaliation and the mail is being delayed while they search it.Not sure if they are looking for bombs or narcotics the postie couldn’t tell me much ‘cause he can’t speak English.
This is the heritage of multicultural Australian –diversity and tolerance.
From time to time, you feel like speaking out about things, but I fear being called a racist or having my cat strangled and thrown onto the front lawn. Still, it could be worse I could be living in one of bad suburbs!

Yep “Times do change".

Lexi,
I can appreciate that scenario because it is in my face every minute of the day. Then when I remark on it I'm told I'm making inappropriate comment. At the same time others who work confide in me & complain that those who don't do any work at all literally but get the same fortnightly pay.
Thanks to the policies of an idealistic & highly incompetent public service administration the minimum wage is now on par & at times even below social security payments.
Single mothers can afford to put their children into daycare & then spend all day between the pokies & the snooker table.
Coalition Governments also preside over that scenario because the public service is always Labor. Until we change heads of the public service at the same time we change Government unfortunately nothing will change which of course suits those on easy street & those looking for easy street.

Dear SPQR,

In reply to your rant about multiculturalism -

This is taken from the "National Lampoon," (US)
on the "Racial characteristics of Australians,":

"Violently loud alcoholic roughnecks whose idea of
fun is to throw up on your car. The national sport
is breaking furniture and the average daily
consumption of beer in Sydney is ten and three quarters
Imperial gallons for children under the age of nine.
... Possibly as a result of their country being
upside down, the local dialect has over 400 terms for
vomit."

Is this a "true" picture of Australians?
Why or why not?

Dear Lexi,
<<Is this a "true" picture of Australians? Why or why not?>>

I’m thinking it must be true. After all, I’ve seen at least two hundred “studies” by think tanks that conclude exactly that (and now you’ve shown me the same from National Lampoon!).

And both SBS & the ABC run documentaries every couple of months, under various guises, that tell us exactly that--except they usually include the additional line about “racist xenophobes” (which I assume you left out ‘cause you did want to go over the OLO word limit).

PS: Does that there source of yours have comparable briefs on the racial characteristics of any black African nations?

Indy has no understanding of the world.
He lives in a place that neve4r existed.
Chasing truths he would not understand.
And rewarding himself for every smirk he posts, proving the above to be true.

Dear SPQR,

The source that I've been using is a
high school text book called, "The Changing
Australians: A social History." It belonged
to my son - and was one of his basic texts
at high school.

cont'd ...

Talking about racist xenophobe's...

Here's an extract from the Age, 1957,
letter to the Editor:

"I for one feel no apology is owing...for...'racial
prejudice' against foreign immigration. It is
nothing to be ashamed of to prefer one's own kind...
I want to see Australia great, to be a united and strong
country - a British country with one people...
I make no apology for...not wishing to see a
mongrel, motley Australia. I believe in a British
Australia."

Yep. Some things don't change for some.

Dear Lexi,

<<The source that I've been using is a high school text book called, "The Changing Australians: A social History...>>

[SPQR muses to himself: She's dying to give her little spiel about stereotyping--come on, give her a break]


Oh, OK Lexi, and what was your point by the way?

Dear SPQR,

You're asking me about my point in stereotyping,
what a laugh.
Look at your own posts and
your references to documentaries and the ABC?
Stereotyping big time!

I was merely replying to your question
about what my sources were. And as I stated
it was a social history text with the
title, "The Changing Australians."
For high school students - so that they would
study the past, and help them better understand
our heritage and national identity.

See you on another thread.

Dear Lexi,

Thanks for those quotes; puts things in perspective - as things change so much remains the same, at least for some. Still, it has been a feature of the genuine 'Aussie' to be able to laugh at him (or her) self - though that has perhaps become more difficult in our new and ever-changing multicultural environment.

Even after being born here, and after 68 years in 'the Lucky Country' I still don't feel like I fully 'belong', just as after 23 years in my current locale I am still not a 'local'. Though with weathered facade and greyed hair I tend no longer to stand out as a 'stranger', just another 'oldie' with long hair and a beard - neither of which is so common nowadays, but is not too out of place for a 'bushie' (in the Aus vernacular sense - I am no acolyte of the lamentable G W).
My surname is a giveaway of course.

Chifley and Caldwell did achieve something amazing for Oz with their immigration initiative, but still drew a line in the sand.
I seem to recall Arthur Caldwell saying "Two Wongs do not make a White".
It is however understandable that Aussies (including myself) would much prefer all new prospective citizens (and those born here of immigrant parents) to undertake to assimilate, so that the culture might 'evolve' in a relatively seamless and orderly manner.
There is much in the Aussie culture worth retaining (binge-drinking, dole-bludging and hooliganism excluded), and one must hope that new citizens can appreciate and emulate the very best of those aspects.

Intellectual cafes? Not really the Aussie cup of tea - just as bush poetry is not for everyone (nor the opera, jazz, theatre, or rodeos and bull-riding).
But, each to his own. Oz has broad shoulders.
The internet is of course great for all who may be reluctant to get up in public to expound philosophically - thereby risking microscopic scrutiny of persona as well as argument.
The intellectuals can just resort to a nice dinner party now and then.

Indy has no understanding of the world.
Belly,
says he who puts plugs in his ears, sticks his head in the sand & lets his imagined friends have their way with him.

Belly,
I just spotted this on the net. I strongly suggest you attempt to understand that.

The real problem
• Neither the oil crisis nor the food crisis (nor the climate change crisis) is the real problem
• As a world, a society, as people – we are in the midst of a thinking crisis

Dear Saltpetre,

Thank You for your post.

Margaret Mead, the American Anthropologist
stated that, "Instead of being presented with
stereotypes by age, sex, colour, class or
religion, children must have the opportunity
to learn that within each range, some people
are loathsome, and some are delightful."

And that's what I've learned on my journey,
my spirit is uplifted by these encounters.
I've met some amazing souls, and their light
fills me.

May your light continue to shine.

Lexi,
paleeeeeze ! Margaret Meade ? The whole world knows about this academic being hoodwinked by so-called natives.

Dear Lexi,

"dull, self-satisfied, and joylessly conformist."

That we were not part of the giant political upheavals in Europe nor even in the US may well have earned us that description but consider for a moment what was achieved in this country. South Australia was the first part of the then British Empire to give women the vote, NSW introduced the Aged Pension well before it was implemented in the UK and we were among the pioneers for an eight hour day.

I think there are certain advantages of leading from the front, those agitating for change are doing so because they see a better, more just way of doing things. The followers tend to find those in power are forewarned and agitation is met with far more brutality. As nasty as the Labour movement ructions were in Australia in the first part of the last century it was a cake walk compared to what occurred in the States where deep injustices are still embedded.

We have had either the good fortune or the right sense of perspective to elevate our society with far less pain than that experienced in other countries. It is something to be celebrated.

So should our intellectuals. That they are not revered as their kind often are in their own countries is not as I said a bad thing, but that should not detract from their worth. Our Robert Manne is not a Tariq Ali, Barry Jones is not a Gordon Brown, and our Tim Flannery is not a Richard Dawkins, they are instead likable, seemingly affable, and without enormous tickets on themselves.

I don't know about you but this all seems to speak to a certain magic we have in this country, a perspective that would make a Germane Greer more comfortable elsewhere. I for one would hate to see it disappear since it serves us well tempering our reactionaries and revolutionaries and steering them to contribute rather than dismantle and destroy.

<<Our Robert Manne is not a Tariq Ali...>>

I'll say aye to that!

I"m flabbergasted every-time I read a blurb which rates him one of Australia's "leading public intellectuals"-- Talk about "(a) dull, self-satisfied, and joylessly conformist".

Hey CSteele (Ismad), shouldn't you be over on that other thread supporting your fellow parishioner Iftikhar (Ahmad)?

Dear csteele,

I think you've misunderstood me.
And it probably is as a result of my
responses to SPQR's posts that you've
taken what I've posted as a criticism
of this country. It was not intended as
such - but merely to understand our own
heritage - and why some people see things
the way they do (a link with the past).
It was in way meant to denigrate the
achievements this country has made - and to
which migrants have contributed so very much.

Some of the uneasiness of the past has
developed for the greater majority of
Australians into greater understanding.
As more and more Australians could afford to
travel overseas for their holidays they became
aware of the different ways of other parts of the
world and thus felt more sympathetic to the
problems of migrants here.

Most of us now have a critical self-consciousness
of the exaggerated image of the pub-crawling,
"Ocker" Aussie of the past. The suburban life and
well-being of Australian society has become the butt
of many jokes (Barry Humphries, Graham Kennedy,
Nino Culotta), and the intolerance
towards "new Australians" and others has been seen
as an unjustifiable prejudice.

This critical self-consciousnes has forced many politicians
and the public, to revise not only policies but also many
of their long held and cherished notions about themselves
and the rest of the world.

See you on another thread.

cont'd ...

I've just discovered a typo.

The sentence should read:

"It was in NO way meant to denigrate ..."

My apologies.

Sigh. If only Australians could be as tolerant as other nationalities:

<Lithuanian Bigotry on Display
The Forward has a very sad story about a terrible custom in Lithuania. Much of my family once lived there so I cannot help but wonder if they witnessed this. This sort of behavior should never be tolerated.

"in this city, once known as the Jerusalem of Lithuania because of the breadth and piety of its Jewish community. During Carnival — or Uzgavenes, as it is known in Lithuania — Catholics from around the world congregate for a feast of foods prohibited during Lent. The festival usually involves a parade or circus, with attendees in masks and costumes. But in Vilnius — commonly known to Jews as Vilna — participants traditionally dress and act “as Jews,” a feat that generally calls for masks with grotesque features, beards and visible ear locks and that is often accompanied by peddling and by stereotypically Jewish speech.

Perhaps even more shockingly, the “festivities” extend beyond the parade itself and into a Halloween-style trick-or-treating. When Simonas Gurevicius, the 26-year-old executive director of the Jewish Community of Lithuania, opened the door to his house during last year’s Uzgavenes, he was greeted by two children dressed in horns and tails, reciting a song that translates as, “We’re the little Lithuanian Jews/We want blintzes and coffee/If you don’t have blintzes/Give us some of your money.” (It rhymes in Lithuanian.)">

http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com.au/2008/02/lithuanian-bigotry-on-display.html

Dear onthebeach,

Thank You for giving us an example of what
has happened in other countries.
Most of us realise the terrible and pervasive
nature of prejudice - be it in Lithuania,
the UK, the US, Israel, or elsewhere. However, that
certainly does not make it right for us in this
country to
sweep what goes on in ours under the rug.
That's just a lame excuse for apathy.

As Dr Eva Sallis points out:

"If contemporary Australians are to live at ease
with themselves, we need more education, less
fear mongering, and at least greater honesty
about the culture of racism that can be so damaging
to us all."

Or as Charlotte Bronte (Jane Eyre),
stated:

"Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to
eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been
loosened or fertilised by education: they grow there,
firm as weeds among stones."

I think there was one of these places at Sydney Uni when I was there. I think it was one of the places those studying non subjects used to hang out organising street marched.

The smell was a bit much. Probably from all those twits, sitting around piddling in each others pockets.

Lexi & others,

<<Most of us realise the terrible and pervasive
nature of prejudice - be it in Lithuania,
the UK, the US, Israel, or elsewhere>>

Still it was interesting that out of all the potential candidates you just happen to hit on <<the UK, the US, Israel>>. I mean , most of our modern progressive schools of thought would read much into that –if it suited them -- and of course it wouldn’t ‘cause all the above named are on their list of favourite villains.

Most on the conservative side are opposed to racism. However, where they split from those on the left is where it(the left) tries –through a thousand devious devices –to portray racism as a peculiarly Anglo-Celtic phenomenon.

Think I’m exaggerating?
Look up WHITENESS STUDIES/THEORY (only “whites” can be racist!)
It is now a core component of many English/Linguistic/Anthropological
degrees at Sydney university (AND, many , many other major unis).

Lexi, "the terrible and pervasive
nature of prejudice"

Are you including Australia in your list of countries so affected?

Remembering that,
- One in four Australians come from a non-English speaking background; and

- One in four of Australia's population were born outside of Australia;

it is stretching credulity to assert that Australians exhibit 'terrible and pervasive prejudice'.

Dear onthebeach,

All I can do is politely suggest that you
re-read my posts on this thread. I've
stated my views quite clearly.

Waleed Aly pointed out on the
news program, "The Project" recently -
we (including Australians) are
all guilty of some measure of bias -
the tendency, often unconscious, to
interpret facts according to one's own
values. In other words - people tend to see
the world from a viewpoint of subjectivity -
an interpetation based on personal values
and experiences.

Dear SPQR,

I can't comment on your statements regarding
What Sydney and other universities now teach.
I'm not a student any longer. But I would
certainly be surprised that they deliberately choose
to accuse only white-people of racism. Perhaps your
assumption is somewhat biased? Just as
your suggestion that the countries I mentioned
Lithuania, US, UK,
Israel, (and elsewhere) -
was an attempt on my part to denigrate in some
way Anglo-Celtic cultures. Which is totally
bizarre, considering that the make-up of the
current populations of
those countries is mixed.

Clem Gorman writes "intellectual cafes come back", but did they ever leave? Universities are turning into "learning commons" complete with cafes built in: http://blog.tomw.net.au/2012/06/designing-learning-commons-for-computer.html

With most of the structured learning moving online, about all that will be left at universities are some labs and the cafes.

Come to think of it, what am I doing sitting here typing this? I am off to table 23 at the Purple Pickle Cafe, Australian National University: http://blog.tomw.net.au/2011/02/designing-for-dialogue.html

;-)

tomw, Brilliant.
You put the whole thread back on track.
While the cafe is still there with different people.
We are the next step in evolution, keeping the thought alive.

Tomw's right. There are intellectual discussion
groups around. The following Meetup Group -
is in Melbourne for anyone interested:

http://intellectual-discussion.meetup.com/cities/au/Melbourne/

Dear Tomw,

I hear you yet I think that Robert Manne's perspective is pertinent and troubling.

Quote;

Online delivery of lecture notes is threatening the traditional model. Many students see no point in cramming into packed lecture theatres when they can access notes and videos on the internet.

But Manne compares online lectures to watching a video recording of a theatre production. And he says there is still plenty of merit in turning up to good lectures.

''Even a lecture should have a certain kind of electricity of spontaneity, and a good lecture does. A good lecture is never just information conveyed and often actually being in the room makes a difference. The students know it if they come across lectures that are alive.''
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/a-teacher-from-the-old-school-to-call-it-a-day-20130118-2czdi.html#ixzz2Prf6M0NI

End quote.

I think that discourse with mentors/lecturers equips people with the skills and rigour to engage in the cafe style exchanges. I'm not saying it is the be-all and end-all but to lose that ingredient will be a great pity.

csteele wrote 8 April 2013 8:27:47 PM:

>Dear Tomw, I hear you yet I think that Robert Manne's perspective is pertinent and troubling ...

I don't advocate videos on the Internet as a replacement for university lectures. Instead I provide the students with material to read and then invite them to discuss it, in the Oxbridge tradition. It does not much matter if that discussion is on-line, or at the university cafe: http://www.tomw.net.au/technology/it/green_computing_professional/

I gave up giving conventional lectures, were the lecturer simply goes through what is in their notes (so called Lecture 1.0), in 2008: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Lecture_2.0#Example_4:_My_last_lecture

On-line structured learning is useful for students to learn the basics, so they are then equipped for more free flowing discussion. I set marked work for my students every week. Some do not get past week 3, because they are unwilling, or unable, to do the work required. University study is occasionally enjoyable, but students need to understand that most of the time it is very hard work and very frustrating.