Pericles -: I agree with you that in some cases it is also about the inability or the corruption of leaders who cant or dont know how to run the economies of countries to provide wealth on a wide basis for the poor people in those countries.

If as you say Zimbabwe has all those mineral resources then why arent they being utilized by the people. Is it lack of know how or is it that Global companies have taken control?

You say that population control can only mean the rich exerting their will over the poor and you mention Bill Gates. By the rich then,I take it you mean the West. Now if Africa has all this wealth why arent the African people taking advantage of it? Is it the job of the West to be responsible for the failures of every country and peoples all over the world.

If the Africans were wealthy and the West were dirt farmers because they had failed to mine and use their mineral wealth or other rich resources would that then be the fault of the Africans because they had suceeded and should they then have to play nurse maid to the West and every other failed country in the world. This is what you seem to expect of the West

It seems to me as though the world (including the West) has come to look on the West as some kind of world Emporer, who must take responsibility for every country and every person in the world. When did all this become our reponsibility? Are these people so incapable of running their own affairs. When did we become God of the world?

Also Pericles-:

People in these countries wouldnt be forced to use family planning clinics the clinics would just be there if they choose to use them. It would be a choice. The clinics could also provide medical assistance other than family planning to women and children to protect their health from illnesses and diseases.

Sharkfin, You ask "when did we become God of the world". The answer to that question as far as Africa is concernde has to be about the time of the start of the European colonisation of Africa. The Europeans divided up the continent into countries as each took what they wanted from the defenceless primitive indigenous peoples. Today the boundaries of the countries are the legacy of the now departed colonial powers. The Africans had nothing to do with it. European business enterprises took the resources of Africa back to Europe to make much wealth and prosperity for their own countries. The history of colonialism is one of huge powerful companies supported by home governments robbing primitive peoples for hundreds of years.

If you really want to understand the problem African peoples have in taking responsibility for their own development and dealing with the "world emporer" then you should look at the web site www.remembersarowiwa.com/ which outlines one such still running unequal struggle. Some of us remember the terrible death of activist Ken Saro-Wiwa and the desperate fight he fought for the rights of the Ogoni people of the Niger Delta. We remember how the Shell Oil Company exploited the Ogoni people. Big business had no trouble "negotiating" with the post colonial military authorities in Nigeria to take the Ogoni epople's oil oil and leave the Ogoni people with nothing but polution and destruction. The exploitation of Africa by the developed West has been going on for some hundreds of years.

What has happened in Africa is symptomatic of the problem over the years of the rich countries taking resources from the poor. The Africans have got virtually nothing out of all the wealth that has been stolen and is still being exported to the developed world. The big take has been so heavy that now we see what "Crud Impact" tells us - the resources are now getting very scarce. You can't blame the Africans or any of the other primitive peoples who have been mercilessly exploited. they have been the victims of history.

Goforit, you clearly suffer from Western guilt.

If you check history and even now, you will notice that
tribalism and dominant tribes has been going on in Africa
for eons.

Even today, the Bantu treat pygmies as subhumans and
question if they are really human. In Central Africa
not so long ago, a few of them were even found to have been
chopped up for meat by one African leader.

In the Congo, some pygmies are treated as virtual slaves
by the Bantu.

If you study the history of Africa, you'll find that
the Khoi and San people dominated. They were largely
wiped out, as the Bantu spread South.

So the Bantu are as guilty of colonialism as the West
is. Dominant tribes dominating lesser tribes, is just
part of human history. So you can forget the Western
guilt trip and sleep a bit better now :)

Anyone studying African history can see the impact of 400 years of colonialism on the natural resources of third world countries.

Unlike Yabby, I don't think tribal warefare is or ever has been relevant to resource depletion. The 100,000 year period of the San, the 2,000 year term of the Khoi or for that matter the 1,700 year influence of the Bantu as savage as their inter tribal impacts were did not rob Africa of anything.

The Europeans found that they could used the natural resources of Africa much more profitably than the primitive local. The resources plundered from Africa and other places allowed Europe to grow and raise its living standards. I think that history is relevant to today's problem.

The rush to grad Africa's goodies was so great that war betwee European states was a real possibility. The famous Berlin conference between competing colonial powers in 1884 became known as the "scramble". There were no Africans at the conferece which just happened to divide up the natural resources of Africa equitably between countries that would otherwise have had to go to war to decide who got what. There would not be anyone alive that did not recognise the impact of colonialism as wholesale plundering of the resources of the third world.

The hundreds of colonies were eventually rationalised into the present day 60 or so states. The borders drawn up by the Europeans had no ethnic, cultural or historical basis. The only basis was the perpetuation of resource access for the previous colonial masters. By capital investment and global market arrangements the resources of third world countries still feed the ever expanding economies of the first world.

What hope have the impoverished third world countries of ever being able to ration dwindling resources to serve their future generations when even the traditional expanding industrial economies are soon to be eclipsed by the soon to be even hungrier industrial economies of India and China wil be in for the grab.

If you suffer at all from any first world guilt then all I can say is not over yet.

Goforit, I remind you that the Khoi, San and pygmies lost virtually
everything, includng their lives and land, as they were wiped out
and replaced by the Bantu!

Africa still today is full of resources, many unexploited. Others
are being exploited, like oil in Nigeria, Sudan, Angola etc, but
only a few benefit, as Africans cheat other Africans of their
wealth. No point blaming Europeans for that.

What Europeans did get wrong, was what the missionaries did. They
brought them vaccines and better healthcare, but forgot the bit
about family planning. The result was a population explosion and
much poverty, so thats something that I as a European am not very
proud of. But then, I can't take the responsibility for religious
nuts I guess.

Africa is free to do as it pleases, change boundaries, whatever,
that is their decision. But what you'll find is the same problem
as in the Middle East. People are still largely tribal in their
thinking, that stops progress in alot of ways.

Given your analysis of exploitation, perhaps you should feel sorry
for Australians being exploited by the Chinese and Japanese etc.
Given that the price paid per tonne of iron ore is miniscule,
we get no better deal then those Africans which you feel sorry for :)

No first world guilt here sorry. If I feel sorry for anyone,
its the pygmies, who are still held as virtual slaves in some
areas, by the Bantu of course. African colonialism at its best!