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The Forum > General Discussion > Is the Pope the Patsy for the Deviant Sexuality of Clergy?

Is the Pope the Patsy for the Deviant Sexuality of Clergy?

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/11/pope-complicit-child-abuse-say-victims Well Pope Benadict has resigned and this UK article suggests why.Pope Benedict was not the only clergy to cover up predator sexual behaviour rampant within the Catholic Church.

It has been unofficial policy by the Catholic Church for eons to cover up this behaviour at all costs,so why single out a Pope who is just carrying out this policy? Should not other heads be rolling?

The real reason for cover ups has been the cost of compensation which has undermined the monetary power of the Church and its credibility.The Catholic Schools may be full but the Churches these days echo more emptiness during the services than ever before.

There have been a lot of good workers within the Church but the hierarchy at the top have been bereft of morals and honesty for a very long time.The chickens are now roosting.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 12 February 2013 11:18:09 PM
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Arjay
Could it be just that he is simply too frail. He looks frail and during the various ceremonies he often looks like he is about to fall or break. The Pope is afterall 85. I doubt he is a patsy given protection of child abusers is something that has gone on for a long time and by your own words is not the only clergy to consistently fail in this area.

A more progressive Pope would do the world a great deal of good if it means re-thinking issues of contraception particularly as it affects the developing world; allowing priests to marry may mean remaining in touch with the real world; and allowing women to take positions in the Church hierarchy.

We can but hope but I suspect it will be a few more years yet before reform of the CC will take place.
Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 13 February 2013 2:28:07 PM
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I don't buy it pelican.I always thought there was something strange about this Pope.It is his eyes and they really look evil.He is the first Pope to resign in 600 yrs and his health looks fine to me.
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 13 February 2013 5:12:57 PM
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I don't think there is any sinister reason for the Pope resigning now.
I actually admire him for leaving when he knows he isn't up to the job.

They practically dragged the last Pope around when he was almost dead, and the poor guy must have had a hellish last few years of life.
It's ridiculous that they made the Popes stay on so long in the past.
Posted by Suseonline, Thursday, 14 February 2013 12:50:17 AM
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Oh Arjay,

You should look up the Pope Benedict's encyclical on Eros. Yes, love. He is a scholar and pianist, and highly intelligent man.
Posted by Constance, Thursday, 14 February 2013 6:27:53 AM
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Constance,
>>You should look up the Pope Benedict's encyclical on Eros.<<

You are so right by obviously referring to “Deus Caritas Est”, the encyclical that deals also - though obviously not exclusively - with eros, sexual love. Among many references to supporting documents, "Humanae Vitae" (the encyclical of Paul VI that in 1968 shocked the Catholic world with its uncompromising ban on artificial contraception) is here conspicuous by its absence.

You might also be interested in http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/news/detail/articolo/benedetto-xvi-benedict-xvi-benedicto-xvi-14293/ .

Benedict remained a university professor also after he became Head of the Church, at the expense of his “managerial” skills and duties. The research and publications’ output of a professor at a University suffer, when he/she becomes Head of the Department. Benedict published three scholarly (i.e. open to peer review as he explicitly wrote) books (on Jesus) while heading the Church. Even where he spoke as the Pope, he kept to an abstract, symbolic level open to different interpretations including by those who cannot - or do not want to - understand him. Only future will tell whether his contribution as n abstract thinker will prevail over his clumsiness on the practical, "managerial", level.
Posted by George, Thursday, 14 February 2013 10:17:43 AM
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During WW2 Ratzinger was part of the Hitler youth movement and there is evidence that he covered up sexual abuse by the clergy.The Catholic Church aided the escape of Nazis so they would not face trial for their crimes.

It seems that the nearer you get to god less morality and compassion
is needed.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 14 February 2013 11:00:46 AM
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Arjay,

>>During WW2 Ratzinger was part of the Hitler youth movement<<

Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth—as membership was required by law for all 14-year-old German boys after December 1939, see e.g. Evans, Richard J. (2005). The Third Reich in Power. Penguin Books. p. 272.
(I myself was similarly forced to enlist in a “Stalin Youth” (Komsomol!) at that age, and so were then all of our age)

>>The Catholic Church aided the escape of Nazis so they would not face trial for their crimes.<<

Even if this were happening, it would be 1945, and the 18 years old Ratzinger could hardly have been complicitin any decisive way

I think, also your third accusation stands on similarly shaky ground
Posted by George, Thursday, 14 February 2013 11:39:39 AM
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Hi George,

Thanks for that. The Pope is very insightful.

Well, as you know, there has always been anti Catholic mindset in the world. I touched on this in a previous post. In Australia, it has probably been occurring since settlement. At least in my father's time, he'd tell me jobs advertising "No Catholics allowed". My father was in the police force and they had secret handshakes between the Masons and Catholics so people would know their backgrounds. And that's why many Catholics sought employment in the Public Service for equal opportunity. The other week, my sister who once worked in the public service mentioned a very popular man among staff working in the agricultural department and wondered why he never rose in the ranks, and she was told by someone that it is because he is Catholic, ie. there was a hidden policy in place.

I also brought up in a previous post, Rerum Novarum - that espoused is social justice for the workers and the dignity they deserve, and how all classes of people should co-operate harmoniously. The ethos was Egalitarianism. Hence, now we have extreme Capitalism who treat their employees like slaves. Believe me, I work in the Public Service. Protestant work ethic? Discouragement of creativity? J.R.R.Tolkien took to task the effects of the Industrial Revolution. Why now is there so much popularity with The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. I'd say people are fed up and looking for answers and inspiration. Tolkien was a devout Catholic.

Have you ever heard of Bella Dodd? She is an ex-communist Italian American who reckons there has been communist infiltration in the Vatican. She returned to the faith after total disillusionment with the Communist Party. I don't know, but I do find it tres interesting.

Am I deluded?
Posted by Constance, Thursday, 14 February 2013 11:43:22 AM
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Arjay,

>>During WW2 Ratzinger was part of the Hitler youth movement<<

Following his 14th birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth—as membership was required by law for all 14-year-old German boys after December 1939, see e.g. Evans, Richard J. (2005). The Third Reich in Power. Penguin Books. p. 272.
(I myself was similarly forced lo enlist in a “Stalin Youth” (Komsomol!) at that age, and so were then all of our age)

>>The Catholic Church aided the escape of Nazis so they would not face trial for their crimes.<<

Even if this were happening, it would be 1945, and the 18 years old Ratzinger could hardly have been complicitin anu decisive way.

I think, also your third accusation stands on similarly shaky ground
Posted by George, Thursday, 14 February 2013 11:43:58 AM
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George you are right about Ratzinger being only 8 in 1936 when Hitler
made joining of the Hitler youth movement compulsory,the article I referenced in the UK Guardian must have some substance.

I was raised in the Catholic system in the 1960's and thus have a inside knowledege of what really happened.There were good and bad but the hierarchy in my view are totally corrupt.

A fish rots from the head down.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 14 February 2013 7:48:03 PM
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Arjay,
>> I was raised in the Catholic system in the 1960's and thus have a inside knowledge of what really happened.<<

I can understand that. We all have had our personal experiences with this or that system (I was raised in an atheist - the Stalinist version - system, and the persecuted Church was often our only consolation and link to Western culture and the "free world").

Nevertheless, some Catholics believe that the Church can be a - better than what you experienced in the 1960s - guide to what is good and what bad. Others believe that the society will function better if it pushes the Church completely aside, if not worse, ignoring or even contravening what it has been TEACHING about good and bad throughout centuries. (Let me haste to add that I am well aware of its often “corrupt” PRAXIS, and the fact that today, even where not “corrupt”, this PRAXIS is badly lagging behind the times)

Only future will tell, which one of these two beliefs is more realistic.

>>A fish rots from the head down.<<
This is an understandable, emotional not factual, reaction to your experience from the 1960s; at that time the present Pope was one of the young enthusiasts of Vatican II, no head of anything.
Posted by George, Friday, 15 February 2013 12:51:18 AM
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Arjay,

The Guardian is not a reliable source, as it is leftist.
Posted by Constance, Friday, 15 February 2013 9:27:13 AM
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Constance,

I reckon Jesus was a leftie....he was certainly a radical!
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 15 February 2013 9:58:01 AM
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By implication that means only Right Wing media is reliable. That is a dangerous thought.

Arjay in this case you are looking for a conspiracy that doesn't exist. The Church was outed on it's failure to address pedophilia some time ago and any of the contenders will all be part of the same culture (hopefully with lessons learned). Using your logic any future Pope would be a potential patsy.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 15 February 2013 10:07:16 AM
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"I reckon Jesus was a leftie..."

Or else ambidextrous if He was God's right hand?
Posted by WmTrevor, Friday, 15 February 2013 10:10:20 AM
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As has been pointed out, Ratzinger is a scholar. As a "believer", he probably considers he can do more in his declining years for his faith in retirement, prayer and contemplation than he would otherwise achieve by fulfilling the role of Pope.

The reality is that it was a reasonably bold move to announce his retirement from that role, it being tacitly understood that a Pope remains in the role unto death.

When I heard his announcement, I rang two friends of mine who are church attending Catholics. I was quite amazed at the turn of events, but neither of them batted an eyelid at the announcement...strange....
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 15 February 2013 10:18:33 AM
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Poirot/Pelican,

Yes, Jesus would have been a genuine radical of the left. But what I am saying that today's Left are a lost cause. They have become instead the elitists (in the overall picture) and betrayers of the common good. You haven't noticed this, Pelican? I have had affiliations with leftie causes in the past when human rights use to actually mean just that - but no longer do. The Left have sold out. Forget Amnesty International - it has become too political.

And so was Pope Benedict XVI, a radical on the current state of economics and globalisation. Most people aren't aware of what he has been saying. What other leader is addressing the repercussions of extreme capitalism? And does encyclicals on Love.
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/contributors/pope-deserves-recognition-for-radical-views-on-ethical-economics-20130214-2efvl.html

There is no justice for workers these days. Look up Rerum Novarum.
Posted by Constance, Friday, 15 February 2013 7:36:33 PM
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Nick Cohen (a former Leftist) speaks of today's left.
Posted by Constance, Friday, 15 February 2013 7:39:19 PM
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On the contrary, Constance, I read what Pope Benedict had to say on the subject - and I agreed wholeheartedly with his sentiments.

I'm a leftie, so it's not so surprising, is it?
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 15 February 2013 8:21:15 PM
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Hi Constance,

I apologize that in reacting to Arjay I somehow overlooked your earlier reply to my post. I found it very interesting, and, yes also insightful, where you describe Catholic Australia in the years before my arrival in Australia. You are obviously a well informed insider.

Indeed, Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno were two very influential encyclicals, now classics, superseded, (actually just essentially upgraded) by JPII’s Centesimus Annus and Benedict XVI’s Caritas in Veritate, both social encyclicals, seeking a balance between leftist and rightist, socialist and capitalist models of society. Especially Centesimus Annus - that appeared during the years when the “capitalist” West triumphed over the demise of the “socialist” East, a demise that also JPII contributed to - instead of celebrating the victory of the “free world” criticized the excesses of capitalism, and was an eye-opener to many “pro-capitalist” Catholics.

>>I'd say people are fed up and looking for answers and inspiration. <<
I completely agree. In the West these answers and aspirations were traditionally provided by the Christian Churches, now - at least here in Western Europe - the religious vacuum is being gradually filled by Islam (and all sorts of ersatz-religions), although it was definitely not the Muslims who pushed the Church out of its traditional places, thus creating that vacuum.

Sorry, I never heard of Bella Dodd but now looked her up in the Wikipedia. There are many late converts to Christianity (mostly Catholic or Orthodox) in East-Central Europe and Russia. For instance, I have known a priest, the son of a high ranking Communist, baptized at, I think, seventeen, secretly ordained, who “outed” himself as a priest, actually a Salesian, only in 1989.

>>there has been communist infiltration in the Vatican<<
Some speak of communist infiltration, others of freemasons, etc. Benedict himself spoke of “internal divisions”, and I do not think he meant only dissidents of the We-are-Church kind. I think Paul VI’s symbolism or metaphor “the smoke of Satan entered the Church” is the safest - albeit non-factual - way to describe the problems (within the Curia).
Posted by George, Friday, 15 February 2013 9:04:49 PM
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Sorry, "In the West these answers and aspirations ..." should have been "In the West these answers and INspiration ...".
Posted by George, Friday, 15 February 2013 9:07:26 PM
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George see http://itccs.org/ This is The International Tribumal Into Crimes of Church and State.Aparently they have taken a lein out against the Vaticans assets because of this coverup of paediphilia condoned by the church.There must be a lot of evidence against Ratzinger or they would have otherwise supported him.

The truth will slowly emerge.
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 16 February 2013 11:21:04 AM
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Arjay,

You probably know that there are all sorts of things on the internet pushing this or that cause loaded with emotions, conspiracy theories etc. Just google phrases like “science (or scientific) conspiracy”, “Jewish conspiracy” and the like. These campaigns are based on some facts (and the cover-up of pedophiles by SOME Catholic authorities is an undeniable fact) and thrive on the emotions of the like-minded, including actual or imagined victims.

As to this “tribunal” you are referring to, see e.g. the discussion at http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130215004730AAHy9GM.

Your site contains a link to http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5629&page=0, which, certainly not pro-Catholic, is a more balanced description of what it is all about.

For instance, you will read there that “Richard Dawkins asked authorities to arrest the pope to face questions over the Church's child abuse scandal”. Since Dawkins himself considers “bringing up the child Catholic” more harmful than sexual abuse of children (c.f. http://www.irishsalem.com/individuals/writers-and-journalists/richard-dawkins/CatholicismDubliner.php), shouldn’t he have asked for the arrest of all the thousands, actually, millions, of educators in Catholic schools, other institutions and families, throughout the world?

You will also read there that “in 2007 the Los Angeles archdiocese … reached a $660 million civil settlement with more than 500 victims of child molestation”. This is on average $1.32 million per victim! This, of course, does not vindicate what happened. Nevertheless, compare this with a contemporary European politician, who actually boasted about “aiming at children’s’ sexuality” or those who asked for the decriminalization of pedofilia (c.f. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=14358#247576).
Posted by George, Sunday, 17 February 2013 12:45:17 AM
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Correction:

"Your site contains a link to http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5629&page=0, which, certainly… "

should, of course, have been

"Your site contains a link to
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/15/us-pope-resignation-immunity-idUSBRE91E0ZI20130215, which, certainly …"
Posted by George, Sunday, 17 February 2013 2:26:15 AM
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Hi George,

You are obviously a more learned Catholic than myself. I appreciate your response. The world is a pretty complex place, hey. Nothing is always as it seems.

Bella Dodd was actually the Legal Counsel for the American leg of the Communist Party and she went through a heavy de-programming after she decided to leave the CP and was receiving counselling from a certain priest on the way to returning to her original faith.

Yes, Richard Dawkins, the (new messiah's) statements that raising your child Catholic is equivalent to child abuse, is simply outrageous. You once said, what is it with the English, in particularly who have such vehement rancour against the Catholic Church? Well, we can see what they did to Ireland.

I have nieces and nephews who were not christened until they were about 13yrs old and under. My brother and his wife, being very liberal minded, asked their children at this age if they wanted to be baptised. One nephew said, yes, I want to be baptised otherwise I'm nothing.
Posted by Constance, Sunday, 17 February 2013 9:16:02 AM
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Hi Constance,

Thanks.

>>You once said, what is it with the English, in particularly who have such vehement rancour against the Catholic Church?<<

This must be a misunderstanding: I never said the like about the English. The Church is no doubt going through a crisis, and those who for whatever reasons are pre-disposed against it (or against Christians, or religion in general) are understandably capitalizing on it.
Posted by George, Sunday, 17 February 2013 9:43:12 AM
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Hi George,

I don't know, I'm not going to go looking for a post of yours a long time ago, but I do have a pretty good memory, particularly when things stick. What I'm sure you had said was along the lines of "what is it particularly with the English who produce people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens?".

Anyway, doesn't really matter, but I did find it interesting.
Posted by Constance, Sunday, 17 February 2013 3:07:49 PM
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Constance
I understand your disappointments to some extent (your comment about 'workers') however the imbalance of the influence of corporations over democratically elected governments is due to a failure of the Left not because of it.

Would you really label the current ALP as a Left party? They are just as neo-liberal as the LNP with very little to distinguish them. It was the ALP who started the madness of outsourcing, economic rationalism, (eg. privatising public assets) and globalisation; and then the LNP ran with the baton. But I guess we digress from the main topic
Posted by pelican, Sunday, 17 February 2013 5:08:23 PM
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