The Iraqi people have certainly lost the war; their country is in ruins and chaos, 650 000 Iraqis killed and two million Iraqi refugees in Jordan and Syria.

Civilisation has lost the war; I suspect we will never know how much damage has been done to archeological sites and how many rreplaceable relics have been lost in this land that was one of
the cradles of civilisation.

I've no doubt the environment has lost the war; when people are fighting wars the environment always gets little concern.

World peace has lost the war. The hatred created by this war will be coming back to haunt us for decades.

Of course the USA has lost the war. They have achieved nothing other than make millions of people throughout the Arab world and the Islamic world hate and mistrust them more than ever.

Even if the war in Iraq has been lost, has anything been achieved in "The War Against Terrorism"? Surely not. Terrorism is used by desperate people who feel they have no other way of getting what they see as justice. Of course terrorism is often counter-productive. But you can't win against terrorism by using guns and bombs, it's not that simple. The Iraq war has made most Arabs and most Muslims mistrust the USA more than ever; it has made a great many people hate the USA. It has created a new generation of terrorists.

Australia has lost the war. Prime Minister Howard never had any right to involve Australia in the Iraq war; the great majority of the Australian people were against it. Between this war and Howards pig-headed refusal to do anything about greenhouse I suspect he will go down in history as one of the most disastrous prime ministers, and this as one of the blackest periods, in my country's history.

Cheer up dave,
Things are not as bad as they seem we are in this war for a long time it is called jihad and we have to win it if you think that people won`t die you have to wake up to the reality of it.
have a look at http://www.jihadwatch.org/ and see what goes on every day around the world people die every day for not beliveing in islam .

Every cloud has a sliver lining:
The naysayers have won- that exclusive group of experts who can always tell you when you’ve gone wrong but never get around to doing anything themselves…
The Bush & Howard haters have won- that group of profound thinkers who will blame every bomb blast, every bullet fired, on Howard or Bush…
The air-headed journalists have won- plenty of sensationalism for their thoughtless headlines……

"Cheer up dave,
Things are not as bad as they seem we are in this war for a long time it is called jihad and we have to win it if you think that people won`t die you have to wake up to the reality of it.
have a look at http://www.jihadwatch.org/ and see what goes on every day around the world people die every day for not beliveing in islam .
Posted by aussiedave, Sunday, 22 April 2007 11:51:21 PM"

Dave, I think you are confusing Islam the religion with people using Islam to camouflage other activities (that is even a quote from your own link).

The problem in Iraq is that the US did not know what they wanted out of the conflict. To be more precise - the problem was a general lack of understanding of Iraq and its people, combined with an unclear goal. Now the country is predictably in chaos. The US cannot morally abandon the mess it has caused. If it does leave, it must accept any consequences are the result of its own actions. And that is the case whoever wins the US election next year.

Everyone is a loser at present. The only 'winner' may be Iran, because they will inevitably have greater influence in whatever government eventually rules a stable Iraq.

Dear Carsten, I note you said 'The religion of Islam' in contrast to the warlike activities, as though Islam itself is not warlike.

I was watching a DVD the other night called "The Presidents Man-Ground Zero" starring Chuck Norris. In it, one of the American lawyers acting for the government faces off with the terrorist leader they have captured, (he has placed a Nuclear device in New York) who seeks to justify his actions as Jihad/holy war, then the American quotes the Quran to him using a verse which is suggestive of Allah being tolerant of non Muslims etc "You have your religion and I have mine" ..that kind of thing. The director obviously gave the actor clear instructions to speak with strong conviction, to convey the idea that 'Islam' itself is good (probably considering an Islamic audience) but the terrorist is 'bad' and mis-applying the religion.

For your consideration I offer you this link to the Quran (4 translations) and ask you to look very carefully at how it describes Christians and Jews, and more importantly the 'reason' it so describes us.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.030

Look down to 009:030 and have a read. I'd value your feedback.
cheers

David,

The warlike sayings of the Quran are matched in vehemence by the Old Testament - a key part of the Christian Bible as well as being Judaic scripture. You cannot deny the Old Testament - it is part of christianity. The bible has been used to justify all manner of atrocities in history.

Therefore, when adhering strictly to scripture, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are equally warlike.

However, we expect well-meaning Christian and Muslim teachers to place these phrases in a historical context.

As far as I am concerned, this is all hypothetical - I am not a slave to any particular dogma. (Blind) Followers of any religion seem to be able to be justify any action by quoting historical passages out of context. I prefer to think for myself.