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The Forum > General Discussion > Debt Clock... Swan Gillard Abbott

Debt Clock... Swan Gillard Abbott

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Take a peek at Australia’s debt clock, the elephant in the room.

http://www.debtclock.com.au/

I had to have a look at this site today after I heard Swan lying through his back teeth regarding how robust Australia is economically.
I just had to check because he and Gillard keep saying it and I don’t hear Abbott debating it….in fact I have forgotten the sound of Abbotts voice…does he have a lisp? I can’t remember.

Anyway some interesting juxtapositions I noticed.

Our government is racking up debt at a thousand dollars a second.
Consumer debt is running at a thousand dollars every twenty seconds.
They are beating us 20 to 1.
Why is Tassy making money?
Why is QLD making money?
Why is WA losing money?
How is the ACT making money?

Why is Abbott out of water when it comes to fighting the fiscal fire that Labor has bequeathed to us?
Why are his strategists and advisers imbeciles and why is the Labor team so gifted?

Abbott is beginning to remind me of some of the buffoons that Velazquez painted in the Spanish court of Philip IV, lucky to be there.

Today Gillard announced a Stalinist adoration campaign in our schools in praise of a monumentally failed program…..Not a word from Abbott. It is all at his feet but he and his “strategists “do not understand how stupid the electorate is…..The vast vast majority do not know or comprehend the debt we are in. Which the Coalition with or without Abbott have the best odds of working towards retiring.

Finally, immediately upon hearing about this disgusting indoctrination of our children, Abbott should have announced Labors other gift to our children.
A $20,000 debt around their necks as soon as they take their first breath. At least Howard’s babies were born free, but sadly indebted now and they don’t even own a credit card.
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 24 January 2013 8:12:08 PM
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Sonofgloin,

The debt clock really should be used by team Abbott. The populace understand graphs, and this one would surely demonstrate that however many times Swan uses the term 'our robust economy' it just ain't true.

Don Randall used a graph in one of his monthly e-letters regarding the illegals arrivals and costs to us under Howard and under Rudd/Gillard. Seen this way makes one realise just how bad it is under this government, in the same way as the debt clock does.

As Julie Bishop occasionally uses this site, maybe she will read your post and act on it.

Can't understand why Abbott is so quiet right now, when he has been given so many opportunities lately to make a case against the decisions being made. So far, not even a murmur about Gillard's 'captains pick' either.
Posted by worldwatcher, Friday, 25 January 2013 12:33:07 AM
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AU debt is very intricate, and more to it than figures. Au actually makes money from our debt. Abbott knows this. So does Treasury who are pushing for more infastructure spending.
We need an expert to explain our debt, it's good bits and it's bab bits.
Posted by 579, Friday, 25 January 2013 5:27:40 AM
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579>> AU debt is very intricate, and more to it than figures. Au actually makes money from our debt. Abbott knows this. So does Treasury who are pushing for more infastructure spending<<

How?
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 25 January 2013 5:41:11 AM
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Federal Opposition Leader Kim Beazley has expressed alarm at the size of Australia's national debt.
Mr Beazley today told the NSW state Labor Conference at Sydney's Town Hall that Australia's $425 billion foreign debt was a risk to the economy and called for more investment in training and infrastructure.
"Over the long term no economy can sustain a mix of spiralling debt and slowing growth," he said.
"I believe John Howard and Peter Costello are taking us to the edge of the debt cliff.
"I fear Australia's credit card is nearly maxed out."
Mr Beazley said Australia would be unable to compete with emerging economies like China and Singapore without investment in education and training.
"For an unprepared country these are fearsome global competitors with low labour costs and vast economies of scale," he said.
"One thing is for certain - without investment in infrastructure and skills we cannot compete against the hundreds of millions of low paid workers at our doorstep.
Posted by 579, Friday, 25 January 2013 6:13:02 AM
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As the AOFM annual report also noted, “the government has highlighted its commitment in the last two budgets to maintaining a liquid CGS market and it will continue to monitor the size of the market in relation to liquidity considerations.”
So despite which side wins the next election, despite the overblown rhetoric from some about the rise in gross government debt and working on the reasonable assumption that we are set to get a run of budget surpluses, gross debt will rise.
The more pertinent question is what the government will do with all the money it raises from issuing bonds that it doesn’t need. A nice problem for any government to have.
Posted by 579, Friday, 25 January 2013 6:16:27 AM
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Au actually makes money from our debt.
579,
So, how much are Australians getting out of this debt ? Is it enough to cover the debt ?
Posted by individual, Friday, 25 January 2013 6:20:54 AM
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SOG look I am sorry.
True
But I truly honestly think.
Your view of this matter, like your belief America bought down the twin towers, or the informed view you gave about climate change.
* I don not look at the science I believe what I see around me*
Is matched by you, failing to understand the GFC and our current position in the world of finances.
Mate, you have no clue.
Posted by Belly, Friday, 25 January 2013 6:27:49 AM
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579 said;
The more pertinent question is what the government will do with all
the money it raises from issuing bonds that it doesn’t need.
A nice problem for any government to have.

Oh that is easy to answer, it will pay the interest and pay out the
maturing outstanding bonds. Then it will sell more bonds to make up the
difference.
579 & others seem to think that when you sell a bond that is the end
of it you just spend the money.
Well, a bond is money owed to someone, and they want interest and they
want their money back as well.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 25 January 2013 8:06:11 AM
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To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee:

That's not a debt clock.

This is a debt clock:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 25 January 2013 8:17:58 AM
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Don't forget the importance of each citizen's share (select convert to USD and scroll down to the figures if necessary):

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/debtclock/japan
Posted by WmTrevor, Friday, 25 January 2013 8:27:00 AM
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Yes interesting Trevor, with about 1/3 the population Japan has about
2/3 the US debt.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 25 January 2013 8:38:05 AM
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Poirot - Good one I like that.
Posted by Philip S, Friday, 25 January 2013 12:30:24 PM
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A pity there's no income clock as well or something showing the trillion dollars held in mortgages or the 160 billion in Bonds or the many other items that show this to be little more than a misleading gimmick.

It's amazing how some people can accept anything at face value when it supports what they even suspect to be true without challenge.

The company behind this is Tasmanian company MASINA Pty Ltd but I have no idea where the figures come from but I'm prepared to bet that it appeared in the last few years and will quietly disappear if there is a change in government, just like the famous Debt Truck.
Posted by wobbles, Friday, 25 January 2013 1:13:25 PM
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Yep, it's all pretty meaningless, given there is no context or detail.

>>It's amazing how some people can accept anything at face value when it supports what they even suspect to be true without challenge.<<

But in their defence, the debt clocks do provide colour and movement, which some people tend to latch onto, like kittens chasing a ball of wool.

If people are so scared of debt, why do they all have mortgages on their houses? The default rate in Australia is minuscule, which means that most people are happily paying the interest on it, month after month.

And when did you last see anyone paying cash at the Coles checkout? As far as the statistics are concerned, your monthly balance is counted in the "debt clock" even if you pay it off, regular as clockwork, every month. Even if everyone paid their balance down on the due date, there is an average of around thirty days in a month, so the balance on the debt clock would count twentynine-thirtieths of the entire total, on any given day.

Always, always, "follow the money". Don't get sucked in by spurious numbers that are only there to scare you into a particular attitude or set of behaviours.

Like Barnaby Joyce and his mega-trillion "exposure" of our economy to what he calls "derivatives", all that is needed is a deliberate avoidance of the least skerrick of understanding, and you have yourself a hysterical rant, unfounded in either fact or logic.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 25 January 2013 2:30:17 PM
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Here we go again - create a threat or an enemy and put yourself up as the only solution.

It doesn't even matter whether the threat is real or implied.

These are crazy times.

We have a Labor Government that's taking away benefits from some single mothers and a Conservative Opposition that wants to hand out even more welfare to wealthy mothers to hire nannies.
We have a Labor government that's using "the marketplace" as a solution for reducing carbon and and opposition that wants to introduce a "socialist" solution by giving taxpayer dollars to polluters.

Meanwhile people worry about something that's not really a problem but presented as some sort of crisis.
Posted by rache, Friday, 25 January 2013 4:08:58 PM
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Belly>> SOG look I am sorry.
Mate, you have no clue.<<

Don’t be sorry china. Are you going keep quoting the same lines out of context?
Re CAGW and believing what I see rather than what the CAGW paid scientific spinners tell me.
What about the “HOCKEY STICK”? The respected academics had to lie through their teeth to get a catastrophic result for the press releases to feed the simple minded acolytes that believe them….they printed lies and spread it globally. Or do you forget that one sport?

579, anyone who can put their pants on knows that debt does not generate profit for the debtor. My question to you is “who dresses you”.

Poirot>> To paraphrase Crocodile Dundee:

That's not a debt clock.

This is a debt clock<<

Poirot really…..What an infantile argument….”they are worse off than us”…..Less than six years ago we had a surplus….

Wobbles>> It's amazing how some people can accept anything at face value when it supports what they even suspect to be true without challenge<<

The fiscal cretin Swan had to go to parliament to raise our borrowing limit to $250 BILLION, and Gillard muted a further $50 BILLION increase in 2012. It is now and will be a record federal government debt…….I don’t suspect we have the largest debt in the nation’s history…..it is fact.
TBC
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 25 January 2013 8:56:23 PM
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Pericles>> Yep, it's all pretty meaningless, given there is no context or detail.<<

We say goodbye to $1 Billion in interest payments alone each month….that is $1 Billion of the dollars that taxpayers earned going to European banks that is the only pertinent detail Pericles.

>> Don't get sucked in by spurious numbers that are only there to scare you into a particular attitude or set of behaviours.<<

Behaviors such as expecting the government to balance the budget.
Labor has not balanced one.
Behaviors such as expecting the government to successfully implement policy.
Failure after failure
Behaviors such as expecting the government to educate our children.
After the BER, computers for all, our primary kids are the least literate in the English speaking world.
Behaviors such as expecting the government to secure our borders.
“Breaking the model” was the tripe the pinocchioesque Gillard regurgitated over and over again.
Behaviors such as expecting the government to maintain a defense force.
Defense budget torn to shreds to pay interest on debt.
Behaviors such as expecting the PM not to lie through her teeth.
In 2007 Gillard lied about her involvement with “The Socialist Forum”.
In 2010 Gillard lied about speaking with the East Timor's President.
In 2010 Gillard lied about a carbon tax.
In 2010 Gillard lied to independent MP Andrew Wilkie.
In 2010 Gillard election lied about same-sex marriage.
Gillard lied about not plotting to remove Kevin Rudd as prime minister.
Posted by sonofgloin, Friday, 25 January 2013 8:56:28 PM
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Federal Opposition Leader Kim Beazley has expressed alarm at the size of Australia's national debt.
Mr Beazley today told the NSW state Labor Conference at Sydney's Town Hall that Australia's $425 billion foreign debt was a risk to the economy and called for more investment in training and infrastructure.
"Over the long term no economy can sustain a mix of spiralling debt and slowing growth," he said.
"I believe John Howard and Peter Costello are taking us to the edge of the debt cliff.
"I fear Australia's credit card is nearly maxed out."
Posted by 579, Saturday, 26 January 2013 4:49:26 AM
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I never knew.
The X files was also here not just on TV
Posted by Belly, Saturday, 26 January 2013 7:00:05 AM
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Belly>>I never knew.
The X files was also here not just on TV<<

Labors last three years profit and loss statements:
2009/2010 have shown a $54 billion loss.
2010/2011 a $49 billion loss.
2011/2012 $22 billion loss.
This was achieved while receiving record prices for our main sale items of coal and iron ore and a PROMISE that it would come in balanced.

This is fact Belly:

By the end of the Howard Government in November 2007, net debt was negative at minus 3.8% of GDP.

BUT

Howard oversaw a net debt as Fraser’s treasurer of a whopping 7.5% of GDP.

The Hawke / Keating Government slashed government spending and net government debt fell to a trivial 4.0%.

Today it is +9.6% of GDP.

If I was a member of this forum when Howard was treasurer I would have belted him relentlessly because he was a dismal failure along with the policies of the party he represents. The ones you defend are dismal failures and your delusions of camaraderie are misplaced.

Belly, 579, Poirot, Wobbles,Pericles, I am not whacking Labor because of my political ideology. I am a Social Democrat; along Lassalle’s lines of thought…there is no party in Australia that represents my views.

Fabian ideologues have infiltrated all global Socialist movements. They carry a class structure that moves elitism from the wealthy to the administrating autocrats, just like the Commo’s.

Belly stick your hand over your heart and tell me that the local branches have the control over their party they had thirty years ago...they have been stacked....

That Sussex Street survived intact after NSW threw the lying self-serving abominations out is proof enough that your party is fundamentally corrupt.

With or with out Obeid, the entire Labor machine have more than just a whiff of bowel movement about it.
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 26 January 2013 10:53:17 AM
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579>> Federal Opposition Leader Kim Beazley has expressed alarm at the size of Australia's national debt. "I believe John Howard and Peter Costello are taking us to the edge of the debt cliff."I fear Australia's credit card is nearly maxed out."

Is that it comrade? That’s the response?

Kim feared that Howard would “max out” our credit card…….he did not.

BUT RUDD AND GILLARD ACTUALLY DID….THEY RAISED THE BORROWING LIMIT….NOT HOWARD.

I would not have used that 579, it showcases your reasoning.
Reasoning is important, even primary evaluation helps. Using Kim’s prognostication on an event that your own lot eventually did is ridiculously naïve.
Posted by sonofgloin, Saturday, 26 January 2013 11:10:53 AM
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Herein, I think, lies the fatal flaw of the Democratic system. Every three years or so, the people get the opportunity to vote for the party which offers the most services (government expenses) for the least tax (government income).
As a result, income tax as a percentage of income has been steadily -and inevitably- falling.
http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.aspx?doc=/content/73969.htm
As a profit and loss statement, no business would envy that.
And to make matters really bad, the philosophy of Neo Liberalism (first promulgated by the Labor Party under the guise of “Economic Rationalism” -can't think why they felt they needed to change the name) demands that government stays out of business; the only other legitimate way to make money outside taxation.
Shame really; there are certain businesses, by nature bureaucratically top heavy, that are just perfect for governments to run; such as:
Banking -what possible better way to control (and benefit from) the money supply?
Insurance
Telcos are apparently immensely profitable...

So we are left with successive governments which can only get elected by promising more while collecting less, and have no other means of raising funds apart from borrowing, and selling off assets (which can only be sold if they generate income. If they make a loss, we get to keep them).
Historically, about the only time people in Democracies have accepted higher taxes is in time of WAR.
The pattern of popular democratic government seems -to me at least- fairly obvious.
Step one, offer more while charging less -and then act surprised at the deficit
Step two, tax surreptitiously (indirect taxes)
Step three, sell off as many assets as possible, even if they are money makers
Step four, introduce a tax to “replace other taxes” (and then don't replace them)
Step five, tax voting minorities on a believable excuse (smokers and drinkers, health concerns)
Step six, tax rich minorities (can't get blood out of a stone)
Step seven, WAR
Would the USA even consider plunging into a war just for political expediency?
Have they ever hesitated?
Worked for Thatcher didn't it?
Posted by Grim, Saturday, 26 January 2013 1:35:07 PM
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425 billion was Au highest debt not a mere 250 billion. Ask treasury about Au debt, not the bloke at the bar.
The public at large are not worried at AU debt, more worried at their own debt. Leave is to the experts at treasury, that is what they are employed there for. There is to much involved for it to be a meaningful discussion here.
Why not trust treasury, to manage expenditure and income, that is their purpose, AU bonds have around as long as debt has been around. Every state sells bonds to raise money, NT bonds always paid the best interest. There is to much bull getting around, so invite a treasury spokesperson to inform you. Why would you borrow from overseas when you can sell bonds here to raise cash. That way payments on maturing bonds can be spread over a particular time.
Posted by 579, Saturday, 26 January 2013 2:16:57 PM
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Ahem, errr... where does the government get its money from, sonofgloin?

>>This was achieved while receiving record prices for our main sale items of coal and iron ore and a PROMISE that it would come in balanced.<<

In Australia, the government does not sell coal and iron ore. Companies do. Government revenue comes from taxation. Taxation of companies, and taxation of people.

Given the chance, people will minimize the amount of tax they pay, as is their right. Clever companies minimize the amount of tax they pay, as is their right also. They even lobby against any new taxes, as they are perfectly entitled to do. So there is not a direct link between "record prices for our main sale items of coal and iron ore" and the budget surplus or deficit. It is indirect, via our taxation system, that levies tax on their declared profits.

A surplus is achieved by extracting a larger amount of tax from people and businesses, than you spend on services.

A deficit is the result of spending more on services than the tax you extract from people and businesses.

Why is this so hard to understand?
Posted by Pericles, Saturday, 26 January 2013 6:17:54 PM
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Sonofgloin,there are a few ways we can put a stop to this nonsense.We need a new Govt bank,get the RBA to start creating new credit and a 1% tax on all derivatives.

No one has the balls to do what is necessary.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 27 January 2013 10:58:26 AM
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We certainly could do with exactly what you said Arjay but as you well know the RBA gets direction from the IMF, as do our governments. The IMF gets direction from the European banking cartel and they have been accumulating wealth at a staggering rate in since the 1980’s.

I honestly wonder at the “Simple souls” that are Labor acolytes, and I will qualify that description by a few facts about when we lost Labor..

I vividly recall Hawke in 1986 sticking his "anti privatization" oar in at the S.A. state elections. "LABOR WILL NOT LET THE PEOPLES ASSETS BE SOLD" the lying chameleon blathered.

In 1990 Hawke slammed the coalition's proposals to privatize the Commonwealth Bank….but he and Keating made a decision in favour of partial privatization later in the same year, and that was the end of the Labor party, they were ready to sell off everything and they did. The Hawke-Keating Labor government “pushes” were instigated by the NSW Labor Right Fabians.

Our Commonwealth Bank went from the 'people's bank' to a private organisation devoted to maximizing returns to its shareholders and managers, and free of any social or community obligations. The Hawke-Keating government's embrace of privatization represented a “FUNDAMENTAL” break with the traditional policies of the Labor Party.

If you ask a pleb the difference between the two parties the answer is at its essence, one is for the well to do and the other is for the battler. The Global Labor political movements of a generation ago struggled to retain and grow assets that were owned by the plebs….the commonwealth.

The Right fought to bring as many assets and profit making endeavors to the market so “all could share”, well knowing that the rich end up with most of the shares. What now differentiates Labor from Coalition? They both work towards taking assets from the commonwealth and selling them off…What is LABOR?

From the 1980’s the Labor leadership displayed unparalleled hypocrisy and the Fabians run the roost over the officials and branch members. Labor acolytes are marionettes, they know nothing.
Posted by sonofgloin, Monday, 28 January 2013 6:53:38 PM
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Sonofgloin I like your comment and the general level of discussion. Sadly for all of us the simple fact is that the populace of Australia largely remains on one side of the economic fence as opposed to our political players, Swan, Gillard, Abbot, Milne, whoever, who remain entrenched on the side of the now disproven and uncontrolled free market ideology which Hawke and Keating sold the country into.

Neither the present Labor regime or the Coalition pretenders show any sign or rhetoric regarding the demolition of the current set of economic fences. They continue to hide behind a smokescreen of diversion , misinformation and to a degree, a reliance on our apathy; they do not serve our democracy well or consequently us the voters.

Hawke and Keating imposed the Regan/Thatcher ideology on the Australian people; had they gone to the people for a direct mandate to make this profound change and dismantling of our economic control mechanisms the voters of the time may well have stopped this far reaching and costly move. So much for representative democracy.
Den 71
Posted by DEN71, Monday, 28 January 2013 8:52:18 PM
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Den71>> Hawke and Keating imposed the Regan/Thatcher ideology on the Australian people<<

Yes exactly so. That fact on its own should have rung alarm bells in the Labor rank and file. I saw it, obviously you saw it…..what did the likes of my china plate Belly see…..nothing….he thinks the party is still the same, as do most welded on’s.

When you evaluate it Labor ruined Australia. The Coalition was always the puppet of the corporations, so anything that they did that disadvantaged us and advantaged big business was no surprise….almost expected and their right if the electorate voted them in.

But no one expected Labor to serve the corporate masters….but they morphed and did, and still do. They went against the mandate of the people then and Gillard did it recently with the calculated no carbon tax lie.

I ask again….what is this abomination of self-serving liars and thieves who’s only point of difference from their sworn political enemies are social issues? Labor my clacka….social differentiators more like it.
Posted by sonofgloin, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 9:05:52 AM
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Yes, Pericles.
It is remarkable how people tend to overlook the bleeding obvious, isn't it?
The problem with borrowing money (or “inviting foreign investment” or selling bonds) to cover a deficit is that the monies received are not a gift.
For some peculiar reason, lenders and investors always expect considerably more in return, than they put in.
Borrowing money in order to make money is a perfectly legitimate and viable business practice.
Borrowing money to pay for repairs and maintenance, services and servicing previous debts is a slippery spiral no business (or individual, or gov) should ever want to find itself on.
I agree with Gimli and Den. The answer seems pretty clear to me: if you don't like paying taxes (who does?) then the gov needs to go into business (again). Look at Singapore. Admittedly a remarkably compact state compared to our sprawling nation, but by Australian standards income tax is ridiculously low. Their gov. has a finger in more than 60% of all domestic businesses -many of which are global- and in many cases a whole arm; eg
Australian Optus customers are effectively subsidising Singapore tax payers.
I wonder what Singapore would think of the concept of gov.s only being allowed to own/operate businesses which lose money?
I would personally like to see a small portion of the Future Fund dedicated to Angel investments. For far too long have Australian innovations been forced overseas.
Superannuation is another area that the gov. could get directly involved in. Forcing every Australian wage earner -via their employer- to hand over a fixed percentage of their income to a bunch of w-wonkers so they can play silly-buggers on the free market monopoly board is beyond bizarre.
Posted by Grim, Tuesday, 29 January 2013 10:30:05 AM
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People treat Government Budgets as though they were household ones.

They are not like household budgets because you can't increase your household income with a stroke of a legislative pen and a household doesn't have a population that keeps growing forever.

The surplus isn't a big pile of cash somewhere in a Canberra vault, it's a balance sheet. A lot of it is IOUs from things like HECS debts that may never be repaid or company receipts that you only hope to get. A lot of it comes down to circumstance and foreign demand for whatever we produce.

A surplus also means that you effectively paid more tax than you needed to or were short-changed on services that you paid for but never received. It isn't cash stashed in some bank somewhere.

The government has to continually spend money to keep sectors of the economy going and that flows through to everybody eventually.
The money spent on schools stopped the building industry from going under while other sectors dropped off. The alternative would be to spend the same money (if not more) on dole payments to building workers plus their dependent industries and slide into recession.

Every time the same dollar changes hands, it incurs tax at various points along the line, not just once.
Posted by wobbles, Wednesday, 30 January 2013 12:51:22 AM
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