Dear George,

I do not accept the existence of a god-creator, any other kind of god, soul or immortality.

However, I accept scripture as a source of wisdom. I also accept the sacred literature of other religious traditions as a source of wisdom. However, we must use it with care as mixed in with the wisdom is nonsense in my opinion.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?" sounds like wisdom to me. However, the idea of a humanoid God taking on the sins of the world seems like nonsense.

Wisdom is found in many places. However, it may need guidance to recognise it.

Dear David f,

>> However, I accept scripture as a source of wisdom. I also accept the sacred literature of other religious traditions as a source of wisdom. ... Wisdom is found in many places. However, it may need guidance to recognise it.<<

On this we agree completely.

>> I do not accept the existence of a god-creator, any other kind of god, soul or immortality.<<

I have been aware of that and respect that view (you are not the only one to hold it).

>>the idea of a humanoid God taking on the sins of the world seems like nonsense.<<

As you may remember, this usually reminds me of the “old lady” saying: How can they teach such a nonsense as (a+b)^2=a^2+2ab+b^2 when everybody knows that you can add only numbers but not letters. You will not find Hilbert spaces in nature, however, as you know, quantum physics needs that concept to successfully describe (represent) certain aspects of physical reality. If the finger points to the moon that does not mean that the moon is finger-shaped.

These are rather crude metaphors since here - unlike in mythological or narrative models of spiritual reality - culture is not involved. Nevertheless, this is approximately how I understand “humanoid”, and other seemingly naive, models of spiritual reality. Of course, this is merely personal, not an argument

It has to be said that the segments of organised atheism which are most visible to the public have been (or are in the process of being) hijacked by adherents of the religion of Political Correctness, this is what is now termed "Atheistkult". Anyone who's really interested can go to Youtube and watch endless online debates on the issue but the widespread perception that organised atheism is now a religious faith comes from the fact that it's leading lights have sold out engage with and in many cases embrace so called "progressive" ideas while suppressing and persecuting reactionaries. As noted in a recent OLO article it's still possible to be a Christian and not believe in God, that mindset is just another form of extreme protestantism and it's just such people, along with straight Marxian cultists who are imposing themselves on the "suits and seminars" atheist movement.

Dear George,

I am trapped by language. Spiritual reality is to me a meaningless concept.

Dear David f,

>>I am trapped by language. Spiritual reality is to me a meaningless concept.<<

Sorry I should have said spiritual (transcendental, supernatural) WORLD, hinting at Penrose’s three worlds (see my article http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14464), where the question of independent existence of these can be suspended. Spiritual matters are the subject of a huge variety of literature, Western or Oriental. One might believe - and many people, apparently including yourself, do so - that they are purely a product of imagination (spiritual world being reducible to the mental world in the language of my article) however, they should not be meaningless. A pseudo-riemannian space of signature, say (7,3) - unlike that of signature (3.1) - corresponds apparently to nothing in physical reality, but is not meaningless.

George,

Here are some examples of what you have said about ‘atheist belief-systems’.

“…As you rightly say, there are atheist world-views or belief systems…”

I guess I'm going to have to say this a few times but there is no atheist belief-system but atheists may have individual belief-systems but that has nothing to do with atheism. Communism is an example.

“Even then, I was speaking of atheist world-views or belief systems`…”

And again, read my answer above.

“…the same as all atheist belief systems have something in common…”

And again, read my answer above.

“…every thinking being, including atheists, has a belief system…”

Here you have backtracked from atheist belief-systems to individual atheists having a belief-system. You have gone away from the position that there is a belief-system associated with atheism to everyone has a belief-system. That is a mighty big difference.

We can conclude from this that what I was saying is correct. There is no common atheist belief-system. Systems needs much more than the single idea of no evidence for a god.

Bertrand Russell was using logic that death infers rotting and annihilation of ego the same as he would if religion did not exist. That is a far cry from a belief-system and a couple of universes away from a religious belief-system.

“I am not aware of having made a case against atheism, or showing it in a bad light, certainly not on this thread, (*Stalinist*) unless you consider intolerance towards other world-views part of atheism.”

Then your subconscious is controlling your mind more than it should. Religion can do that. It is Interesting that you do it again using the subtle language of the misguided. It is not atheism that is intolerant of religion. Atheism is rightly intolerant of the bad parts of religion.

Religious intolerance of others is real and not imaginary as atheism is portrayed by religions.

Religion is demonstrably intolerant of women, lesbians, gays, stem-cell research, voluntary-euthanasia, effective sex-education, abortion, single parents, atheists, non-indoctrination, non-taxation-pilfering, non-infiltration of chaplains in state schools.

Now it’s your turn for an atheism intolerance list. Good luck.

David