Bowen has now admitted that new arrivals will be released into the community and will receive Quote "A single man will get a basic payment of 89% of the lowest Centrelink payment - about $438 a fortnight - plus 89% of rent assistance, or a maximum $107.69 a fortnight. (TOTAL $545.69)
THAT alone will ensure they keep coming simply because Indonesia and Malaysia GIVE THEM NOTHING. Even Germany give them a very little money and food vouchers.

The smugglers can now advertise that because the detention centers are full that if they take the boat they WILL be released into the community with at least $545.69 per fortnight on arrival.

They future cost will be potentially astronomical because approx 95% of the arrivals are men when they are given a visa (even if it takes 5 years) they bring there family TAXPAYERS have to house and support them all. (NOT 1 HOMELESS REFUGEE)

Misc adverse consequence
1) Public housing and private rental will now go to these people and the cost of renting WILL rise and waiting lists get longer. ( they same situation would arise under the Malaysian solution when we had to provide housing to the 4,500 who came from Malaysia)

Philip, I share your concerns.

The government is moving to make it more difficult for asylum seekers, or so they say. But shadow minister for immigration, Scott Morrison, says that they are effectively doing exactly the opposite. I agree.

See this short story from Lateline:

http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3638174.htm

Morrison and Abbott are right. I am bitterly disappointed with Christine Milne.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-20/amnesty-international-inspects-nauru-detention/4382042

What Amnesty International thinks of our detention center on Nauru.

So Paul, I wonder what Amnesty International would like to see. Could it be completely open borders, so that refugees or those who purport to be refugees, or just anyone who is looking for a better life, can come to Australia?

I can see the lawyers lining up if someone released into the community is injured suing the taxpayers for Millions of dollars saying you failed to protect me.

There seem to be a lot of boats in the past few days not reported by most media outlets.

At least Abbott has the brain to want to make them work for what they get - I like that idea.

Also $545.69 per fortnight is way too much for most as they will have around 4 to 5 people living in 1 house which will leave them with a disposable income of around $450 per fortnight.

Do what Germany do give them allowance for rent and food stamps and a little money (way less than what we give them)

Let Amnesty International go to one of the camps in Jordon or Africa then they will have something to complain about - screw amnesty int.

Ludwig Amnesty International will submit a report to our government, with recommendations. for their consideration.
Phillip it is a poor line of argument, when one tries to justify one wrong by pointing to a perceived bigger wrong.
Hermann Goering screw your Nazi Party.

Paul1405 - In Indonesia there are over 100,000 refugees in Malaysia there are more Will you be singing the same song if even 20% of them turned up at Christmas Island.
Your taxes will have to rise and other social programs for AUSTRALIANS will have to be cut or delayed.
I also say screw the International convention on refugees BASIC ECONOMICS, nearly 2,500 per month now. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

Paul if you are so concerned what do you do apart from advocate for the refugees in writing, have you opened your house to them (I bet not) do you donate money to them (I bet not)

Yep time Amnesty was banned as a subversive organisation, along with the Greens.

It must be accepted that Australians are incredibly stupid. It is people like you Paul1405 together with Sarah Hanson Young, Christine Milne etc that prompt the idealists and do-gooders from Amnesty International to push their feel good agenda onto the Australian people.
ALL YOU ACHIEVE WILL BE TO BURDEN US WITH A HOST OF UNSTABLE, UNSKILLED AND CENTRELINK DEPENDANT LAWYER ATTRACTANTS.

SILLER - It is not Australians that are incredibly stupid it is the political Labor party and Greens that are. Probably trying to grandstand to the international community instead of the people who elected them.
The majority of people are sick and tired of all these welfare for lifers coming and just want them stopped they can see the damage that will unfold in future years and the erosion of opportunities for there children.
Few weeks ago rally for refugees drew a crowd of 8 people in support of them.
Abbott has another good one cut the intake by 6,000 I like that.
Labor is increasing it to 27,000, not sure who will be taxed more to support that many welfare for lifers.

Starting with a common room, allow refugees 15hr/wk building public housing & food gardens for their keep http://bit.ly/S4EjvG

This is a minor issue and there's not much a liberal democratic government can do to reduce the number of arrivals.

The "crisis" is essentially propaganda manufactured by the Opposition and the Murdoch press, an Abbott government won't be able to take any more effective action either. If the Coalition becomes the next government the crisis will mysteriously 'disappear' from the headlines even if the number of arrivals doubles.

Paul I came to rebut Phillip s, he has a one eyed view on most things.
You in that post put me off.
Get you act together bloke you are becoming unreadable.

Belly Quote "I came to rebut Phillip s" Please enlighten me as to what is factually incorrect.
I don't like to disillusion you but you have been unreadable now for some time.

I see Labor has now introduced a re badged TPV. All we need now is to tow the boats back.

Surely someone in charge realizes that one day, we must use the big stick approach to this illegals matter.

So, I guess the question is, when!

Do we wait till our education or health budgets are all but gone.

Do we say no more pensions, or dole.

Do we bring back the likes of death duty.

Do we increase taxes.

Or, do we say, enough is enough, cause all the talk in the world won't stop these people coming here.

This illegals debarcle is costing us billions WE DON'T HAVE so when do we say no and take action to stop it.

Landrights4all, NTW sounds like a good idea. Yes, if asylum seekers are going to be moving freely in society, then they should definitely be required to do something like this.

<< Yep time Amnesty was banned as a subversive organisation, along with the Greens. >>

Hazza, as a former member of both, I reckon you’re not far off the mark!

PhilipS

I have only one point of criticism. By calling the thread “ Labor - opened the floodgate for refugees.” You tend to dignify the scammers.

The majority of boaties are not “refugees” in any way shape or form.

It would have been better and truer to have titled the thread:Labour -opened the floodgate for Illegals-and the Greens spiked the pumps.

I just hope that you people never become displaced through war or famine .... then your inhumane and selfish attitudes would change. Why? Because it would then be YOU and YOUR families seeking help.

Also, if the people coming here via boat were white, educated Christians with a similar culture to us, you would be welcoming them with open arms.

There's always been a minority of Aussies who are inherently exclusionist, insular and racist, They support a typical "Fortress Australia" mentality. Most Aussies are much better than that.

DiamondPete - You poor deluded person, you are wrong on so many points.
1. Didn't take long for the racist card to come out sorry but you are wrong I would say exactly the same NO MATTER WHERE they came from.
2. Even the UN has said most are economic refugees.
3. In Africa and Syria the refugees are families or women and children yet we get 95% men on the boats PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT ONE.
4. Last poll I saw 83% of people wanted the boats stopped that is not a minority.

Just out of interest will you have the same opinion when the 100,000 in Indonesia turn up and your taxes are raised, welfare payments drastically reduced, essential projects abandoned and they totally stuff up the social and cultural environment.

When is ENOUGH IS ENOUGH after the next boat with 200 on it or the next or next we are now at 40,000 here come more now 50,000 the cost to support them is 6 Billion dollars per year the deficit is now hundreds of Billions of dollars, please enlighten us when is ENOUGH

Phil baby ... thanks for proving the accuracy of my points with your sad reply.

(1) No you wouldn't.

(2) EVERY refugee in the world is an "economic" refugee ... THAT'S the point ... to get away from the violence, intimidation, lack of rights, war etc etc in order to live in a country that provides a stable "economy" with a future. Duh !!

(3) The men are sent on by their families for the purpose of establishing residency in many different countries the world over, in the hope that once established the families will be invited to come via safe methods. Again .... Duh !!

(4) Correct. I too want the boats stopped. I want these refugees to be ALL allocated to safe countries the world over, that they and their families should be brought to in safety. It's something called "humane" treatment. Something that some people on this thread don't possess .... basic humanity.

Your Indonesian comment shows your paranoia and "Fortress Australia" mentality.

Regarding your paranoiac defecit comment ... In 2012/2013 there will be a SURPLUS.

Oh boy, you really need an education.

You're the "classic" type of person I described in my first post. Paranoid, fearful, resistant to change, anti "outsiders", anti refugee, Fortress Australia mentality etc etc.

Ludwig, Why "require" when all you need to do is invite? The right energy is very important and we do not need to punish.

I'm a pretty tollerant guy [ Aquarian] but Iv'e about had a gutfull of bleeding hearts, imigration tollerance and bloody freeloaders coming to my country via th backdoor; forming onclaves or clossed communities, imposing their rules and religious ideals, sucking the public purse dry when I see homeless in the streets every gosh-darn day. A health system thats shot to the out housee, debt out of control, a criminal for a prime minister and people in power cowering over rules imposed by an international body of roving cocktail drinkers, whom we didn;t elect. "Iv'e had enough and I'm not going to take it anymore"
My solution - boat to bus to sea plane to nearest indonesian island; into rubber dingies and good-by.

I think the solution here is quite obvious: naval mines in the Timor Sea. That should keep them from reaching our shores.

Cheers,

Tony

DiamondPete - Obviously when you read you put your own biased interpretation on things, AGAIN you are so wrong to the point of watch out for the drug squad.
Quote "(1) No you wouldn't." Of course you know what I would do better than I would DELUDING yourself again.
Quote "(2) EVERY refugee in the world is an "economic" refugee" Here you really show your ignorance an economic refugee leaves for a better LIFESTYLE they are not covered by the UN convention. A refugee leaves because of violence etc.
In 3) you failed to show why Africa and Syria are different.
In 4) worldwide there are 42 million refugees, displaced people or potential Good luck trying to find any country willing to take on that.
Quote "Your Indonesian comment shows your paranoia and "Fortress Australia" mentality." WRONG again

Quote "Regarding your paranoiac defecit comment ... In 2012/2013 there will be a SURPLUS." NOW HERE YOU REALLY SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE there will be no surplus if Juliar and Co don't get there act together.
Your whole reply lacked any credibility or substance.

Poor old pepper has shown his paranoiac, intolerant, racist, totalitarian colors here on this thread.

Pepper calls for ....

(1) intolerance of "immigration" (pepper would make an efficient Nazi)

(2) refugees to be labeled "freeloaders" (yep, Nazis are pretty intolerant)

(3) accuses his "freeloaders" specifically of forming closed communities here (but he approves of Aussies forming enclaves when they are overseas)

(4) says migrants "impose their rule" (sure, they force us all to live under "their" rules ha ha ha ha .... poor paranoiac pepper)

(5) says migrants "impose their religious ideals" (pepper thinks we are all forced to be Muslims by migrants ... ha ha ha)

(6) he says they decimate our finances by "sucking the public purse dry" (umm pepper baby .... Australia's finances are in good shape and the envy of the world ... glad I could educate you on this)

(7) he says our health system has been decimated by migrants (our health system remains one of the best in the entire world)

(8) he says our national debt is out of control (our debt to GDP ratio is one of the BEST in the entire world ... the entire 1st world envies our well controlled national debt)

(9) he says our Prime Minister is a criminal (he can't name ONE criminal offence the PM has been convicted of)

(10) he wants to send migrants and refugees to remote islands and then place them in rubber dinghies (pepper wants totalitarian control to do as he wishes to migrants and refugees).

Poor, sad, old pepper. A true paranoiac believer in old fashioned, Fortress Australia ..... still stuck in the 1800s. Still yet to enter the modern age. Inhumane, contemptuous towards and fearful of difference, change and diversity.

Pepper's post says it all regarding the type of person he is. So sad. But a small minority of radicals are like that. Australia has always had a minority of people with those extreme views. As the more educated our country has become, these types of extremists have diminished in number. But they still exist.

Phil baby, pepper and the naval miner Tony, should form a comedy trio .... we can call them the totalitarian version of The Three Stooges. Don't worry folks ... Larry, Curly and Moe will protect Fortress Australia from the wicked, horrid "invasion". Oh Lordy me, they better hurry .... we're almost ALL Muslims now, and those wicked refugees are ruling Australia with an iron fist already; forcing us all to be Muslims. The end is near, please please save us Larry, Curly and Moe.

Landrights4all, no I’d go with ‘require’.

It would not be mandatory if a person can put forward a very good reason for not having to help with NTW or something similar. But otherwise, they should have to. You were only talking about 15 hours a week.

It would be a case of ‘we help you, you help us’. And it would be beneficial for them as well, in learning more about Australian society at a grass-roots level.

Asylum seekers get substantial handouts as soon as they get here. If they are then found not to be refugees, they don’t have to pay this back. So it is very fair and reasonable that they should be required to do a bit of work of some sort.

In 2007 there were 4 asylum seekers in detention in well maintained facilities.

Now thanks to Labor's sanctimonious policies we have a manufactured humanitarian disaster and the worst humanitarian reputation ever. The architect of this multi billion dollar disaster is Juliar as shadow immigration minister.

As for a comedy trio, we have Juliar, Whine Swan, and Chrisis Bowen, the three moronic amigos have done more damage to border protection than the Japanese in the 40s.

DiamondPete, The members of the Third Reich are goose stepping all this thread. I never infer they are racist, I tell the rednecks outright. We have the forums version of Heinrich Himmler Tony somebody. I particularly got a chuckle from the poster pepper "
I'm a pretty tollerant guy [ Aquarian]" This is followed by a diatribe of intolerance.
Economic refugees come in all form. They fail to mention the 57,000 mostly economic refugees we welcomed in the past 12 months from Aotearoa. People who easily fit into our community. Most of my partners immediate whanau have settled in OZ, all working, all contributing.
I have two very good Muslim friends one from Turkey and one from Pakistan. They both arrived some years back as refugees with little more than a suitcase and hope. Today both my friends and their families have made a decent homes for themselves in OZ, working, schooling all the 'normal' stuff. Yes they both fast for Ramadan, but when their kids were young put up a xmas tree, as my Turkish mate would say "my kids are not going to miss out."
Phillip S you asked me "Paul if you are so concerned what do you do apart from advocate for the refugees in writing, have you opened your house to them (I bet not) do you donate money to them (I bet not)." To answer your questions, even though its none of your business, no I don't have refugees living in my house, yes I do donate to charities for the third world. My main support is through Kiva loans, to people in the third world. I'll ask you besides attacking asylum seekers in writing what are you doing to "stop the boats". May I suggest if Abbott comes to power you could sign up on the SS Mad Monk as a gunner patrolling the Timor Sea ready to blow the nasty boats out of the water.

.....If the Coalition becomes the next government the crisis will mysteriously 'disappear' from the headlines even if the number of arrivals doubles.

Mac, do you mean much in the same way it has recently.
But hang on, labor are still in power!

Diamond Pete, well, what can I say.

If only you showed so much passion for your own people, as you do for these illegals, who knows, many of our homeless and pensioners might just have a better life.

Also, what sought of a man, abandons his family, in a war torn region (your words) in an effort to find a better place, knowing this may take years.

Surely a real man would send his family first, so they are at least safe from the violence, don't you think!

Now as for others changing our ways, wake up my friend and smell the roses.

OUR SANTA , they are trying hard to stop him saying HO HO HO, some of our schools can no longer cerebrate birthdays in class, all because of these outsiders, (looking for a better life as you say) don't like our ways and wish for us to respect their ways.

As I have always said, if you are INVITED HERE you must leave YOUR BAGGAGE behind.

As for the illegals, we need to decide, do we stop them now, or do we wait till they arrive with guns.

As for me being a supporter of our fortress,I am guilty as charged, and proud of it.

After all, why should we offer our support to those who have one common problem.

THEY WON'T STOP BREEDING even though they know they can't afford more kids.

We have a forieng aid budget and, if that doesn't stretch far enough, well that's a shame, but surely, SURELY our own people's needs come first.

SM, I agree. But how can you talk about who is responsible without even mentioning one K Rudd??

Paul1405, calling someone a Nazi is no longer effective, we don't care anymore and we're not intimidated, I'll happily wear that tag if it sets me apart from a traitor like you.
Your extreme xenophilia and constant Anti White hate speech clearly comes from your personal predilection for sex with non White women, the men who screech the loudest in support of open borders are always the ones with a non white wife and half breed kids.
So we're expected to bear every negative consequence of an influx of Third World men, the increase in crime, violence, rape and all the other "victimless" effects outlined in the preceding posts just to support the bias of a few sexually inadequate White men and desperate, used up middle aged White women who have wasted their sexual capital early in life?
Paul, why is it only White countries which are expected to welcome every person who knocks at the door?
Africa for the Africans, Asia for the Asians, White countries for everybody? Right?
You claim to be anti Racist, what you are is anti White, Anti Racism is a code word for Anti White.

Paul 1405,
I should point out though that I'm now openly in favour of the excercise of White Power, so I too support the complete abolition of border controls as a way of obliterating your "Tolerant", "Inclusive", "Pluralistic" society. We'll see in coming years where the Muslims, Sikhs, Chinese Nationalists,Hindus and African fundamentalists sit on the left / right scale eh?
White Power is the power of diplomacy, ethnic coalition building and tribal politics, "The Man Who Would Be King", you'll no doubt be horrified to realise that us "Nazis" have more in common with Islamists or other fundamentalists than we do with people like you.
People of culture and tradition are all furiously angry at Liberals, "respectable conservatives" and Leftists and we're already building the networks and strategies to take down your egalitarian system.

Ho,ho,ho, Jay of Melbourne,

If your DNA was genetically tested, you'd probably be surprised to learn that a goodly proportion of your extended lineage is of Slavic and middle-eastern origins. I watched a program several years ago where "typical English people" were tested - and out of about fifty "white people" who swore they were so so British, only one of them possessed predominantly northern European antecedents.

Still, carry on - we all know how a good mix of difference strengthens a population, and how extensive inbreeding weakens the line.

Gina Reinhart want to bring in foreign workers;
The government has stacks of them.
Let the miners pay them the $525 a fortnight and provide accommodation.
The miners can also pay the government an amount that covers government costs plus a margin.
The miners being responsible to train them in the job.
While detainees are available the miners be banned from importing
other labour.

A win all round for everyone including the detainees.

Poirot,
Don't you get sick of repeating that same silly line about "Hybrid vigour" and having the same people prove to you that it's BS over and over again? What's more that wasn't even my point, you just picked up on the "half breed kids" part and thought you'd have a smirk.

Bazz,
Fair enough but what happens when the miners no longer have any use for them? Old Gina and her mates will sack their entire workforce and close their mines if profits fall below a certain level.
What's more if I, with a degree and a trade qualification can't get work in the resource sector then how is an Afghan who reads at a grade two level going to be useful to anyone?
Under the current system once refugees have been accepted they can't be sent back, guest workers can be terminated and sent back or re hired as needed.
A better idea would be to completely de regulate the wage system and let the capitalists have their foreign workers for five dollars a day, in the long run it would improve the prospects of native Australians because they would be forced to collectivise and force a change to the system, like they did in the late 1800's, resulting in the immigration restriction act. These things are tied to cycles, in the next decade or so we may well see most of the non european/ non indigenous people gone from this continent and their access to the economy severely restricted.

JOM,

Apologies for smirking....especially after your "superior" white-inspired rant in Paul's direction...got to admit your stuff sure is freaky - man!

The boat arrivals since Labour took government have built up a head of
steam that despite introducing offshore processing, protection visas,
no family reunions etc, will take some time to slow down and stop.
The most effective and fastest effect will be to start sending them
back to Indonesia. If they scuttle their vessel then they can be
rescued under solas rules and returned to their last port of departure.

The effect of them turning back up amongst those that saw them leave
will have maximum effect.

Now don't let us hear any of this Indonesia will not accept them
nonsense, Indonesia does not have a choice.
This is the biggest failure of the government in not enforcing the
Solas rules onto Indonesia.
The reason that countries are forced to accept back their nationals
and passengers of vessels of their nation is that otherwise ships will
refuse to rescue vessels in distress.
Indonesia has the answer in their hands and that is to deport all
those already in Indonesia and to stop them entering in the first place.

Ludwig, I think someone who is required by a stronger party to work 15 hours per week is encouraged to be resentful and less productive than someone who made their own choice to do so. Our past experience of work for the dole should be enough to prove the excessive management & material costs when there is resentful participation. Anyhow I would rather KNOW who was willing to help in housing and feeding themselves.

Why build in resentment when the energy could be entirely positive & constructive? Authoritarianism would be a bad start I would think & totally unnecessary. Just what advantages do you see in making people do what they would do naturally?

Ludwig, I meant to addthat if the option to sitting around going mad for 5 years Was to grow some food for myself & build some housing where I might stay if I am accepted ... Well it's a no brainer isn't it?

We should gift Christmas Island and Ashmore Reef to Indonesia as they are virtually part of Indonesia anyway. Rather than rushing into Indonesian waters like boy scouts we should turn off our surveillance and let the boat people find their way to our West Coast. The Indonesians don’t monitor boat movements or worry about rescues but the silly Australians rush in with life jackets to within a few kilometres of the Indonesian mainland. There is an old saying “WE ARE MAKING A ROD FOR OUR OWN BACKS WITH STUPID BEHAVIOUR”
The boat people who make it to the west coast can be then be sent off to Nauru and Manus Island. This will save a lot of money, give our navy a break and quickly reduce the boat arrivals.

Landrights4all, how about a mandatory 15 hours per week and then anything extra is voluntary?

A few people might be resentful of this, but if it is explained to them that it is:

1. Sensible for them to return something for their upkeep and processing, and 15hrs/week is not much and

2. It is a win/win situation, whereby they do a bit of work and learn about Australian society as a result of it….

Then there should be very few problems.

Those who do strongly object get to stay in detention with reduced privileges, and have their attitude noted as part of their refugee determination.

It would not just be about developing an effective work program for Neighbourhoods That Work or similar schemes, it would be about getting a bit of a return for the very considerable expense that these people are drawing from the Australian taxpayer, about their education, about the deterrence factor to those thinking of making the trip to Australia, about the situation that they are in:- in the care of Australian authorities, having arrived here outside of our formal immigration program and outside of laws associated with border protection and against the wishes of the vast majority of Australian citizens, and the government and opposition, and displacing more needy offshore refugees that would have come here via our formal immigration program.

They shouldn’t be in a position where they can pick and choose whether they assist their new would-be host country in some way or not. They SHOULD be required to do certain things. And again, we are only talking about 15hrs a week.

Ludwig, re "do certain things". I agree, so long as that is not too prescriptive, and so likely to cause resentment. We have a good example in the case of unemployed people over 55 wanting to do voluntary work instead of job search. The situation there is they can do any form of voluntary work for any approved community organisation. It is up to the community organisation to determine if something is likely to be valuable to the community or not. That leaves the opportunities so broad only a bludger would not take up something.( I am very keen to see this opportunity extended to all unemployed people below 55)

The systems for this are already in place in centerlink and in many community organisations.

Too bloody right Jay: the last thing we want is a bunch of filthy mudbloods befouling the gene pool. Anybody who cannot trace a White lineage all the way back to King Æthelstan should be dumped in the outback and left to fend for themselves.

Cheers,

Tony

I fully support this statement.
Labor and Coalition locked in race to the bottom
23 Nov 2012 | Sarah Hanson-Young
Human Rights / Immigration & Citizenship

The Greens have express dismay at new lows in the tenor of debate regarding immigration policy in Australia.
“Labor and the Collation are locked in a race to the bottom, trying to outdo each other on who can be the harshest to refugees in a bid to win cheap votes,” the Greens’ immigration spokesperson, Senator Sarah Hanson-Young said.
“The Coalition’s announcement has pulled back the veil of concern and showed that Mr Abbott has no interest in reducing the number of people embarking on dangerous boat journeys, because reducing Australia’s humanitarian intake forces people onto boats.
“The old parties know that they need to offer safer pathways to reduce boat arrivals, but they are refusing to do so.
“The Coalition’s immigration policies are just a terrible patchwork of misinformation and demonization.
“Mr Abbott’s language where he insists on calling refugees ‘illegal’, where he says Australia is suffering at the hands of a ‘peaceful invasion’ is reminiscent of Pauline Hanson’s despicable rhetoric and it represents a new low in the debate.”

Here is a link to United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees Regional Office which may help some get Australia's refugee problem into prospective. This was published in June and relates to the Global trends for 2011.

http://unhcr.org.au/unhcr/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=46&Itemid=92

Jay,
You said: "Paul1405, calling someone a Nazi is no longer effective, we don't care anymore and we're not intimidated, I'll happily wear that tag if it sets me apart from a traitor like you."
I agree calling a Nazi a Nazi should not upset a Nazi. It was not meant as an insult but more so as a statement of fact. I am a member of the Greens, I make no secret of that fact. From your posts I assume you are a member of some neo-fascist organization or party. If you are not, all I can say is your 'talents' are being wasted. Through the brotherhood you could do so much more to protect 'Fortress Australia'. And if one day Jim Saleam or someone of his ilk should become Chancellor of Australia, who knows you may be promoted to Commandant of a Concentration Camp, then you could show all those non whites what you think of them. Ah!

Jay I just noticed this post from you:
"People of culture and tradition are all furiously angry at Liberals, "respectable conservatives" and Leftists and we're already building the networks and strategies to take down your egalitarian system."
Now you remind me of Hermann Goering, at the Nuremberg trials good old Hermann liked to refer to himself as a 'cultured man'. Do you know what really upset Hermann the most at Nuremberg, no not being charged with taking part in the mass murder of 6,000,000 people, he seen that as necessary, besides he didn't hate Jews. The thing that got under Hermann's skin was he was charged with stealing works of art. he said "How dare they charge me with stealing, me, I am a cultured man I would never steal!" I assume you to are a person of culture and tradition just like good old Hermann was.

While I personally get no joy from the Labor created humanitarian disaster, I do get some joy in the large quantities of crow that Labor and the Greens are having to swallow.

Just about every Labor idiot MP posted a statement saying how proud they were in dismantling the Howard Pacific Solution, is now silent while re introducing many of the elements they supposedly despised.

Labor and the Greens rubbished the pull factors that the coalition warned them of, saying that the demolition of border protection might only lead to a small increase in boat numbers, and now are trying to break the smuggler's business model.

Many more have died at sea trying to reach Australia illegally in the last 4 years, than actually got on a boat to Australia in the last 4 years of the pacific solution.

Paul, I have said that about politics for years, however, I believe that the greens are in fact leading the race when it comes to the bottom.

In fact, if they had their way, nothing would be built, nothing would be farmed and nothing would be mined.

Now that would be a perfect world, if only we didn't have this little thing called MONEY.

And of cause, they would also increase our population with their do-gooder open door policy on illegals.

They had their chance, and I would suggest that the next election will show they blew it, along with those so called, independents.

Now any and all die hard labor supporters should write this statement from Shadow Minister on your wall, fridge, shower door, wherever, just as long as you see it every single day these fools continue to waste OUR TAXES, .........

....Many more have died at sea trying to reach Australia illegally in the last 4 years, than actually got on a boat to Australia in the last 4 years of the pacific solution.

Now if their latest policy on the run change increases the boats, as is suggested, Labor should be sacked for what they have done to our borders, along with those who have supported them in the house.

It will prove once and for all that They are simply unfit for office.

@Paul 1405

I fully agree with this statement: Anyone who believes the lines fed to them by “refugee” advocates are tit-sucking naïve.

It is hard to credit that there is anyone who still gives credence to the old furthy that our current in-flow of illegal boat arrivees is merely a reflection of a worldwide trend –yet Greens member No.1405 does.

It is hard to credit that anyone would still try and conflate HOSTING refugees. Which merely means they are temporarily occupying a piece of your territory. And RESETTLING refugees which means they have full citizen rights and full centrelink benefits –yet Greens member No.1405 does, and so does the UNHCR report he links to.

Sarah-Hanson Young got it right about one thing. There is a race to the bottom. But it's about a decline critical thinking, and the Greens have won that race -- by a country mile.

Paul 1405,
Support for egalitarianism is support for mass murder and imprisonment, equality means gulags and mass graves, over 100 million people have died because of people like you, it's a bit rich accusing someone who doesn't believe in your death cult of wanting to kill and imprison people.
Heads up, the Nazis were Socialists just like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao, your ideas have already reached their potential in the Ukranian famines and the killing fields of Asia.

What's more you are a Xenophile, it's a mental issue equivalent to being a pedophile, we don't worry overly about people who have no interest in being around our children do we?
Tthe people who are obsessed with other people's kids are a worry for parents because they will tear apart a family to satisfy their lust. So too with people obsessed with having sex with people of other races, they'll tear apart a Nation in order to satisfy their lust, we need to keep sick, obsessive people like you away from healthy families lest you destroy the entire nation.

Jay,
Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao, why don't you add Amin, Gaddafi, Huuein and Khamenei all good socialists. Come off it mate any chance they may have been DICTATORS.
You now try to link me to pedophilia with this crap "What's more you are a Xenophile, it's a mental issue equivalent to being a pedophile,"
People like you are too gutless to admit you hate 90% of the people in the world, people who don't fit your mould,people you would be happy to see exterminated in death camps. A White Supremacist with rubbish like "people obsessed with having sex with people of other races". You seem to have a fixation with sex, is that part of you belief in the nazi Aryan race? I am a Green what political organization(s) do you belong to? Are you too gutless to admit you are a member of some extreme right party/organization.
You are most likely some young pup with absolutely no life experience. Go back to reading Mein Kampf while you watch a re run of Rompa Stomper.

Spot on SM. The Libs have got it all over the Labs on this issue.

It’s such a crying shame that on just about every other issue they are just as bad or even worse than the Labs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hp6J6PF47CM

Which one are you Jay? The Duke of Frankston or Lord Smack-Habit?

Cheers,

Tony

Ha ha ha .... now we have the anti migrant/refugee bigots here accusing people who don't share "their" views, of being pedophiles.

This surely has to be one of the most uneducated and ill informed forums I have ever seen anywhere on the internet. Sad.

Diamond Pete,

The standard sure is getting scratchy around here.

I was just looking back through some older threads (coz there's not much edifying in the present ones) and noted there seemed a tad more vitality and a far more balanced mix of posters....in fact, at times I can't work out why I'm still here? So many reasonably balanced posters have fallen by the wayside.....

I guess the greens are as pleased as punch. They can't be held responsible, and the drownings and detention camps gives them huge material to be sanctimonious about.

As long as they are not actually supposed to implement a real solution, they can puff themselves up and Tut tut everyone else.

Absolutely correct. Those of us that can see both sides of our political system, are by far the most intelligent.
Guilty until proven innocent, Kangaroo court, Can not remember punching walls. There is so much biased innuendo going on, it's hard to get an informed opinion.
Those of us that are fair to both sides, and believe in justice, truth and the Australian way, will be victorious in our quest for true leaders and fairness to mankind.

You’ve got to hand it to the rar-raar-open-borders crowd. They have a very special way of viewing things.

Here we have Diamond Pete:
<< now we have the anti migrant/refugee bigots here accusing people who don't share "their" views, of being pedophiles>>

It’s apparently slipped Pete’s attention that he had just labeled those who don’t share his views “bigots”.

The missing subtext to Pete’s post is: “Us ‘refugee’ advocates have monopolized the media for so long. How dare these upstarts express a contrary view”

Then we have Poirot, bemoaning:
<< I can't work out why I'm still here? So many reasonably balanced posters have fallen by the wayside....>>

Anyone who has followed Poirot’s posts will know that she is so UNbalanced that were she a ship,she would capsize portside first -- reasonably balanced in Poirot-talk means channeling Naomi Klien.

And the funniest of all is this from that odd character 579:

<< it's hard to get an informed opinion>>

“informed” here means, agreeing with 579

And before I quote the rest of his post I’d advise anyone who is seated to take a firm grip …ready?

<<Those of us that are fair to both sides>>

Repeat: “THOSE OF US THAT ARE FAIR TO BOTH SIDE”
ROFLMAO (I did warn you!)

And then he concludes with a piece which sounds it's been plagiarized from an old Superman movie:
<<and believe in justice, truth and the Australian way, will be victorious in our quest for true leaders and fairness to mankind>>

SPQR/ Diamond Pete,
I'm pointing out that extreme Xenophilia is a pathology or sickness the same as Pedophilia, but the way it manifests itself in Paul's case is particularly nasty because he's openly hateful toward my ethnic group and is calling for our destruction.
Classifying my ethnic group as "Nazis" is shorthand for saying he wants total war upon us, what he's talking about is ridding the continent of a certain class of person which is classed as Genocide under international law.
Paul is only talking about my ethnic group when he speaks of "Bigots", "Nazis" and "Rednecks", he claims to be Anti Racist, what he is is Anti White, Anti Racism is a code word for Anti White.
See egalitarianism isn't about equality across the board it's about "equal privilege", so a person of any race or caste can be part of "TheAustralian way" and enjoy it's privileges as long as they stand against "Bigots" and repeat the politically correct words and phrases.
Anyone else, traditionalists, nationalists, religious people, conservatives, intellectuals in other words the people who make up the middle of the nation are to be wiped out or converted.

Listen up to SPQR, folks,

This is the guy who delights in reconstructing and contorting other poster's meanings in the image of his preferred context (when the original doesn't fit his agenda)...

....and when his blatant misrepresentation is exposed, he hasn't got the *"*"'s to admit it.

Way to go, SPQR.

Jay,
You can tell when people like diamonpete have nothing to say of any substance. When they start calling you names you realize they cannot logically justify their comments and they resort to the lowest levels. You might say diamondpete is leading a race to the bottom. I'd say you just ignore arrogant people like this.

What a surprise: Jay would rather let himself be led up the garden path on some side track about Nazis - Godwin's Law I'm afraid - instead of answering my question:

>>Which one are you Jay? The Duke of Frankston or Lord Smack-Habit?<<

Pretty much what you'd expect from such a weak racist piece of sh!t. If this is a typical sample of the proud Aryan soldier protecting Australian society from the dangerous darkies then we might as well hoist the white flag now because our proud Aryan soldier is a pathetic soft-cock.

Cheers,

Tony

Jay and your supporters,

You misunderstand when I refer to you as Nazis, I don't do so to insult, I am only stating my view of your political philosophy. Your extreme views lead me to no other conclusion.
I asked Jay what organisations political party he was a member of, by the lack of response, which is standard procedure for functionaries of far right micro cells. I conclude you are from some extremest group.
Jay tries to tie his political philosophy to his ethnicity with "Classifying my ethnic group as "Nazis" is shorthand for saying he (Paul) wants total war upon us," Not your ethnic group, you, and the rest of your Nazi micro cell. You are not an ethnic group, you are people with extremest views and in no way could your views be interpreted as reflective of your race. I must point out that ethnic background has nothing to do with extremism, the juntas that control Iran and North Korea throw in the Taliban just to name a few are as bad as Nazis and they flow from all different ethnic backgrounds.
Jay wrote "why is it only White countries which are expected to welcome every person who knocks at the door?
Africa for the Africans, Asia for the Asians, White countries for everybody? Right?" I like the sudden switch, (the continent of) Africa for the Africans, (the continent of) Asia for the Asians you could have said (the continent of) Europe for the Europeans, Totally wrong, 80% of refugees are at this moment living in third world countries. Is Australia one of your "white only" countries. Can you provide a list of these "white only" countries. This post clearly shows your paranoia with division of race as does this "your (Paul) personal predilection for sex with non White women" Nazis show a disdain for what they perceive as abnormal behavior for you Jay it is pedophiles for Hitler it was homosexuals.
p/s I support your right to free speech, please keep on posting, even though you add little to the debate

Ludwig, Just what advantages do you see in MAKING people do what they would do naturally?
Would you be looking to maximize participation?
Do you think it would discourage making the voyage?
Do you think the incentive to supplement income by growing food would be too weak? Or that they would rather sit in detention for 5 years?
If you believe in these or other reasons, I hope you will go into them a bit.

Landrights4all, the important thing is to stop the boats and regain control of our borders, and exercise our refugee-assistance entirely through offshore programs that are within our formal immigration program, and via international aid.

This subject of asylum seekers doing a bit of work for the Australian community is very much off to the side of my concerns.

If we are to have asylum seekers and they are to live in the community and not in detention centres, then they should absolutely be required to do some sort of work that would benefit the Australian community and help reduce the enormous cost of their support and processing.

But of course, there should be NO asylum seekers that don’t go to detention centres, and for a considerable period of time, except maybe children.

The fact that some asylum seekers get to live in the community straight up surely adds greatly to the pull factors. And we absolutely need to address all significant pull factors in order to stifle the motivation for people making the trip to Australia by rickety boat.

continued

Working for 15 hours a week, ongoing, until they have paid off all the expenses of supporting and processing them, or until they get their claims rejected and are deported, or if accepted as refugees; until they get fulltime work, seems like a sensible idea to me….just for as long as there is a net benefit to the community, and it is not more trouble than it is worth.

This sort of thing would perhaps add slightly to the deterrence factor to would-be new arrivals. But it is hardly significant compared to whether they would be living in a centre in Nauru or Manus Island or moving pretty freely in Sydney or Melbourne.

A work scheme that includes agricultural pursuits whereby asylum seekers grow some of their own food and give some to the community would be good.

But I think such schemes should be limited to those who get refugee determination and then settle in the general community. I shouldn’t have even broached the idea of asylum seekers doing this, because they should not be outside of detention centres until their claims are processed and approved, and they have done a minimum period of time in there as a fundamental part of the deterrence factor.

Trading insults and name calling on this thread does nothing to help the situation this government has put us in.

Another boat sinks and 33 more drowned with no comment by the government.

So now we have over 1000 drowned.

A flood of illegal entrants, so we cannot cope

A cost of billions of dollars, that could have been used to benefit Australians.

Previously we had a system that worked, with hardly any illegal arrivals. This is a glaring example of the incompedence of the Rudd/Gillard government. Have they put ideology before common sense or is it just stupidity? Either way a complete stuff up.

This issue alone should see the Labor government dismissed for many years to come

Ludwig, If I was a genuine refugee, nothing Gillard or Abbot could do would deter me. I don't believe for a moment the boats can be stopped. I believe that whatever is done, the numbers will keep growing until there is a balanced population throughout our region and a balanced living standard. I think only a war between the poor and rich (us) could put this balancing off, but it would be short term and ultimately futile with lots of suffering and environmental damage which we can ill afford.
The smartest thing to do would be to lay foundations for a more sustainable economic pathway. Not only would the poor ( including refugees and the unemployed) be pleased to be able to have a recognised role in this, but the rest of society would benefit greatly too.

Paul1405 Quote "80% of refugees are at this moment living in third world countries" - This sound like a compelling winning statement on your behalf EXCEPT for 2 MAJOR points.
1 Those 80% are being supported and kept alive by the MONEY from mostly western countries or Arab countries pressured by western countries.

2) Those third world countries give then nothing but the land they can temporarily use for the camps.

It is only STUPID western countries that put out the golden welcome mat.

I kept out of this thread for a while except for the needed reply above to Paul1405

ozzie Quote "You can tell when people like diamonpete have nothing to say of any substance. When they start calling you names you realize they cannot logically justify their comments and they resort to the lowest levels."
Your comment about summed it up correctly, although there were a few other people that can be put in the same category.

<< I don't believe for a moment the boats can be stopped. >>

Landrights4all, Howard stopped the boats.

The methodology for doing this is clear. And Labor is very reluctantly and very slowly implementing just the same sort of policies… in amongst completely contradictory policies that undo the deterrence factor and promulgate the whole asylum-seeker movement.

The boats CAN be stopped. There is no doubt about that.

<< The smartest thing to do would be to lay foundations for a more sustainable economic pathway. >>

Yes. But how does this sit with your belief that the boats will continue to come and in ever-bigger numbers?

Surely stopping the boats and regaining full control of our borders, our immigration program and our refugee-assistance and international aid efforts, sits within a strategy of developing a sustainable economy and society.

<< the numbers will keep growing until there is a balanced population throughout our region and a balanced living standard >>

Can you envisage what that balance would look like? Australia would be completely overwhelmed, with the complete destruction of our society, with the most massive population growth, before we reached any sort of population balance with Asia or the rest of the world!

Wow, I find the notion that we should just accept onshore asylum seekers for ever more, and at whatever rate they come, to be quite amazing!

There is nothing that I have encountered after seven years on this forum that I disagree with more strongly!

Ludwig, I should have said "... can't be stopped by any civilized method". ( And uncivilized methods will just result in a war which we will lose)

Yes I do envisage what a balanced population and living standard could look like - it would be able to avoid war and to foster sustainable development. But it would require that the poor have an alternative to the consumer society for food and shelter - the NTW model I referred you to.

By the way I don't think it will be a matter of what we should do regarding immigration , it will soon enough become a matter of what we must do. As with the environment, nature will not be denied - desperate people will just become more desperate, so it would be best if we learn how to co operate now.

Landrights4all,
That position isn't really a compromise nor is it reassuring, it's still couched in the PC eschatology, remember the pro Boaties are religious nuts as well as extreme Xenpohiles, it's a broad church but filled with pervs and mental cases like any other. I said earlier that I believe that the only way for normal people to take control of their nations is to throw open the floodgates, it doesn't matter now, the borders are already open, the only way forward is to overload and destroy the present system and as Alexander Dugin says 'destroy with one hand and build with the other".
Note the difference in viewpoint , it's optimism for a national rebirth out of the ashes of the decadent, egalitarian system as opposed to the belief in the total obliteration of all things in the end times espoused by the Refugee advocates.

Landright4all,
If you were a GENUINE refugee and had $5000+ to buy your way to Aus, why would you not come by an airline on a tourist visa, and apply for asylumn after arrival.

If indeed genuine, you would save yourself about $4000 and be safe, and no detention either.

Jay, I'm not suggesting anything at all compramised, not least because it would be impossible for the uncompromising to compromise. I'm not trying to be reassuring either - I agree with you that the borders are down. The old chant that "they could come on paddle pop sticks" is testimony to just how long this has been the case. But I do say that we are headed for disaster if we continue with the old fortress Australia mentality.

I believe there is a win win way forward in which we don't end up with ashes. That way forward means providing a way for permanently unemployed to house & feed themselves & have an important role in modern society (see the earlier NTW link.)

Banjo, If I could afford to come by airline of course I would. Unfortunately I would also need papers which might not be so easy to come by in a war torn or chaotic country, or in a place where I was being persecuted.
Why do you think genuine asylum seekers who can afford to come by airplanes come by boat instead?

There are some posters on this thread who should by Law not be allowed to identify themselves as Australians. They are traitors of the most hypocritical kind.
Go to the countries whence these pseudo refugees hail from & do your do-gooding there.
Leave us out of it. If indeed we would face being refugees ourselves then it is entirely due to those who fight us fighting the refugee influx war.
You're not helping refugees you're aiding the agenda of destroying this country by the madness that is a certain religion.

Landrights4all,
The illegals have no problem getting papers that allow them to fly to Malaysia or to Indonesia. It is then they pay the $5000+ to get to Aus by boat. Aus visas are not that hard to get, we provide about a million or so a year. They may have to show they have funds for their expected stay and/or have return ticket.

The reason the illegals pay so much more to come by boat is because they have a far better chance of success of getting permanent residence, which is what they seek. Only about 20% of legal entrants that apply for asylum are successful. Wheras about 90% of illegals get permanent residence. Illegals that arrive by air are sent back to the place they boarded ASAP.

That is why I view all those that come by boat as economic migrants who are gate crashing our country and are shonks. No docs means we cannot prove their identity so cannot deport them. All this has been explained many times on this forum.

Here is a great statistic.

In a Pew Global Attitudes Survey, a MAJORITY OF PEOPLE surveyed, in 44 of 47 countires worldwide, agreed with the statement that " We should restrict and control entry of people into our country more than we do now"

Paul1405 I am still waiting for your comment re this post from page 12.

Paul1405 Quote "80% of refugees are at this moment living in third world countries" - This sound like a compelling winning statement on your behalf EXCEPT for 2 MAJOR points.
1 Those 80% are being supported and kept alive by the MONEY from mostly western countries or Arab countries pressured by western countries.

2) Those third world countries give then nothing but the land they can temporarily use for the camps.

It is only STUPID western countries that put out the golden welcome mat.

Banjo, In your previous post you asked why people with enough money to pay a smuggler don't save the money and come by air. I guess you are answering your own question now - it is because if they survive the boat trip they stand a better chance of finding refuge here. Can you imagine how desperate they must be to take that risk on the high seas? No wonder 90 percent of them are found to be genuine. My guess would be that those who come by air are more suspect.

The point you make also makes my case. How we choose to view the world this very different.

From my personal experience with refugees claiming asylum I can assure you that the department of immigration looks into how people got here from their home country very carefully in order to determine if a genuine or not.

Landrights4all,
Your arguement does not stand up. If the illegals were desperate they would seek refuge in the first place available.

There are many places that are signatories to the Refugee convention, that are far closer than Aus.

Maybe I have had more life experience than you and understand peoples motives better.

They buy their way to Indonesia by bribary and buying false papers. It is greed alone that they seek to get to Aus. Any young man of decency would not leave his family in peril, while he scooted off to lay about in the tropical sun.

Other young men are staying in their home country and helping to rebuild it. The illegals are cowards that come here to hide.

Banjo, I'm not arguing about where people come from or how, but simply about what we are going to do with the inevitable increase in refugee numbers.

As you said, we can't maintain our borders and our current system can't provide enough for all. To provide for all we need a system that is sustainable and we need to start developing that now.

The poor are begging for an opportunity and, as the rich won't abandon consumerism, the poor are perfectly placed to help us develop something new. I have described what this could look like in NTW link.

landrights4all - Quote "The poor are begging for an opportunity" If by the poor you mean refugees.
1) the majority do not speak any English therefore they can not be given any jobs because if they have an accident all they say is "I could not read the sign" the Government will then sue the employer.

2)of 8,000 plus refugees accepted under the humanitarian program 85% were still on welfare after being here 5 years (all we need is a few thousand more of these)

3) approx 95% on most boats are men if accepted they will then be allowed to bring the family they deserted so 1 refugee could turn out to be 5 or more.
so last few months 95% of 7500 = 7125 x 5 = potentially 35625 (welcome to the new housing crisis for Australians) not 1 homeless refugee.

Quote "inevitable increase in refugee numbers" It is only inevitable under this incompetent government and the golden welcome mat they put out. Pull the navy back let Indonesia do there own work it is there rescue zone we end up picking them up from.
Tell Indonesia for every boat we will cut foreign aid by $12 million dollars
Indonesia can stop most of them if they want to but do not. They can stop them getting into Indonesia in the first place but they do not want to. Same goes for Malaysia.

landrights4all,

There were virtually no illegal boat arrivals before Labor. This can be turned around, starting with turning the boats back to Indonesia. This can be done legally and safely.

The smugglers simply don't believe that Labor has the stones to do anything but make ineffective gestures.

as the rich won't abandon consumerism,
Landrights4all,
that's an open-ended statement in itself for even the poorest of countries have very rich. Many of their people become refugees because of their rich. In our society we have poor also but they don't go to other countries. Why not ? Because other countries' Governments wouldn't have have them for a minute longer than it takes to either thow them into jail or send them packing. The reason why so many come here is because our Government actually advertises how much they can expect to get paid for nothing once they arrive here. It's got zilch to do with consumerism or us not wanting to abandon our way of life. The Australian Government gives hundreds of millions of aid to Countries which have more Billionaires than we have unemployed. Go figure.

Alexander Dugin and his "The Fourth Political Theory" thinly veiled fascism.Like Hitler called for a return of German power Dugin calls for a return of Russian power.
landrights4all this may be the kiss of death for what you say but I agree with your concept.
Posted by landrights4all, Monday, 26 November 2012 9:35:19 AM

"I do envisage what a balanced population and living standard could look like - it would be able to avoid war and to foster sustainable development. But it would require that the poor have an alternative to the consumer society for food and shelter - the NTW model I referred you to.
regarding immigration , it will soon enough become a matter of what we must do. As with the environment, nature will not be denied - desperate people will just become more desperate, so it would be best if we learn how to co operate now."

I have been appalled by the handling of the asylum seeker issue by all 3 Labor, Coalition and my own party The Greens. The Greens taking the moral high ground whilst innocent people drowned at sea was wrong. I was particularly discussed by Abbotts blatant use of peoples lives to score political points as did Labor to a lesser degree. I would have thought our leaders could have reached a bipartisan agreement and saved lives, unfortunately it was not the case.

landrights4all,
No matter how often you change the subject you will not win this debate. As i said in the earlier post, if you were a GEBUINE refugee with the funds you would not pay inflated prices to come on a leaky boat, you would fly here safely and then present your case, with all supporting docs, to our officials.

The facts are simply that the illegal boat entrants are frauds who get here by bribery, then lie to our officials. They know that this government is so weak and stupid they get away with it.

Most Aussies know we are being duped and the illegals are conning us.

Most, like myself, can hardly wait to show aour displeasure in the ballot box. This issue alone will bring this government unstuck and rightly so.

Banjo,
Glad to see you can speak for millions of Australians.
"Most Aussies know we are being duped"
"Most, like myself, can hardly wait to show aour displeasure in the ballot box. This issue alone will bring this government unstuck and rightly so."
Latest Newspoll has it 51-49 and Abbott's as popular as a bad dose of piles. Do you have a crystal ball?

landrights4all Quote "From my personal experience with refugees claiming asylum I can assure you that the department of immigration looks into how people got here from their home country very carefully in order to determine if a genuine or not."

They did a real good job checking Cap't Emad, he was cleared before nearly everyone else on the boat HE really fooled the system so do a lot of others YOU REALLY DO NOT KNOW WHO THEY ARE WITHOUT THE DOCUMENTS.

Paul1405 This will be the 3rd time why can't you answer the question?

Paul1405 Quote "80% of refugees are at this moment living in third world countries" - This sound like a compelling winning statement on your behalf EXCEPT for 2 MAJOR points.
1 Those 80% are being supported and kept alive by the MONEY from mostly western countries or Arab countries pressured by western countries.

2) Those third world countries give then nothing but the land they can temporarily use for the camps.

It is only STUPID western countries that put out the golden welcome mat.

Paul 1405,
I said, "Most Aussies know we are being duped and the illegals are conning us" That comes from my own observations from people i talk to about the illegals. I suggest any poll asking the question exclusively will get the same answers. I do not claim to speak for others, just my own opinion.

You illegals advocates seem obsessed with Abbott, when he has nothing to do with this issue. The Rudd/Gillard government got themseles into this situation by their own stupidity. Maybe they were influenced by the flawed greens ideology. Further compounded by the weak action of Rudd in the 'Oceanic Viking' matter.

No doubt the parliamentry Labor party wish they had left well enough alone and do not forget that both Rudd and then Gillard both promised to stop the boats coming. This is the biggest wrong decission by our government in history.

If it was not for the loss of lives and the cost to us, the situation would be laughable. How to create a problem , when there isn't one.

Little wonder the public wants the issue resolved and will vote accordingly. Time running out for the government.

@Paul 1405,

<<Glad to see you can speak for millions of Australians…Do you have a crystal ball?>>

Who needs a crystal ball.The last 3-4 council & state elections have seem the Greens lose badly.

The ACT:
“The counting of votes will resume for the ACT election later today…It has been a bad night for the Greens with a swing against the party of 4.6 per cent.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-21/swing-to-liberals-as-greens-lose-favour/4324956

NSW
“2012 NSW Local Council Elections…
Ashfield - The big losers in Ashfield were the Greens, whose vote fell 7.7% to 15.0%...
Blue Mountains … Green support also fell.
Canada Bay … Green support was down. ..
Leichhardt - The Greens lost nearly 11% of their support, losing votes to both Labor and the Liberals…
Marrickville - A roughly 7% swing from Greens…
Randwick - … the Green vote down.
http://www.abc.net.au/elections/nsw/2012/council/?page=sydneylordmayor_commentary_include

Open your eyes and ears Paul and listen to electorate. They don't want your loopy open doors policy -- Even Bowen can see it

“Greens' NSW council election flop due to asylum position, says Bowen”
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/greens-nsw-council-election-flop-due-to-asylum-position-says-bowen/story-fn9hm1gu-1226470962522

Paul1405 says "The Greens taking the moral high ground whilst innocent people drowned at sea was wrong."

It took awhile to get there, but well done Paul1405.

Now, what to do about ensuring the LNP does not benefit from the political point scoring over this issue that may well be what wins them government? I'm still waiting for any indication of political maturity from the Greens on this

The Greens' position isn't the high ground, there isn't one.

One can be a bleeding heart, and let thousands die at sea, or be a hard hearted and see a handful suffer mental distress in detention.

This is an election losing issue. While Labor may have caught up in the polls following a smear campaign against Abbott, and a string of unfunded spending promises, the chickens will come home to roost when the voters judge labor on its string of disasters and economic vandalism.

Ludwig, .... and there you have it in PhilipS recent post above.

PhilipS gives us a great explanation of the housing employment and integration challenges which cannot be dealt with by the current economic / social system. The looming reality he describes is one anyone can see, unless they have their head in the sand.

PhilipS also gives us the only logical prediction for what will happen if we allow our minds to be constrained by the limits of the current/economic social system - that is, sooner or later it will force us to do you just as he says with Indonesia and Malaysia, provocative as that would be.

ShadowMinister is in the same boat as PhilipS on this

INDIVIDUAL points out that Australia is now well recognised as a country of riches and opportunity. I agree. He says it is because of labour party policy, but I think hordes of Aussie tourist's who have traveled the world conspicuously over recent decades hxave done much more to put Australia on the map as a super attractive destination. Whatever the causes, the fact is the cat is out of the bag and the question remains how do we deal with growing immigration pressures, whether those pressures come from refugees or other immigrtion

Jay &Banjo - and that brings us back to the subject of my original question and proposal - how do we meet these challenges & avoid any conflict that could reduce us to ashes? .... my proposal is NTW, what's yours?

90% of Sudanese Refugees say they intend to return home:

http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/15485188/90pc-of-sudanese-refugees-want-to-go-home/

So much for that, it must have been a kick in the guts to realise that actually no real Australian wanted them here in the first place and that we're anything but an "open, inclusive and tolerant society". So do we now accept that REAL people REALLY get hurt when the public discourse and policy making is given over to White airheads and people who live in a fantasy world where everyone is "equal?

90% of Sudanese Refugees say they intend to return home:
Jay of Melbourne,
I don't have the slighted intention of being sarcastic on this but I sincerely hope that those who do return will take back the idea of why they came here in the first place. They came to a better Country which is better because people value what they work for & they want to protect it rather than just share it with every Tom, Dick & Harry who happens to think they can get their snout in the trough simply for claiming refugee status. It appears to me that if they do go back then they weren't real refugees in the first place otherwise & I'd have thought that they try for asylum somewhere else. Their decision also highlights the failure of the fabled successful multiculturalism.

Luciferase.
As I said earlier none of those who represent the people in the Federal parliament can take any comfort from their attitude to the whole asylum seeker issue. The intransigent stance taken by all parties will see history judge them harshly. This was a time when petty politics should have been set aside and leadership shown. Unfortunately our leaders from the PM down failed all concerned.

SPQR, Thanks for the link to the Murdick fish rapper, According to you Labor can't get anything right, so why believe anything from that commie Labor bloke Bowen, must be wrong.

Banjo
"That comes from my own observations from people i talk to about the illegals" Having a chin wag, and a few schooners with Ned and the boys down at the 'Royal' can hardly be extrapolated as the view of the majority. It is the view of those you talk to, and I would think you social contacts are most likely to think like you. I can see it now Banjo "Boff what ya think of dem illegal" "Don't know Ban, shoot the b's".... Banjo: "What about you Ned?" "All I know Ban, it's your shout!" Next day Banjo proceeds to post "The majority think like me we should #####asylum seeker##### the minority think I should buy a round, how wrong they are!"

@ Paul 1405,
The best thing for you to do would be to forget ALL about the asylum scammers.

Instead, find yourself a cause or hobby to occupy your time, which is more socially constructive –has more credibility.
For starters, I hear tell that there are kilometres of used car outlets along Parramatta Road here in Sydney .And if you think the asylum scammers stories are heart wrenching, just have a listen to some of theirs! Practically all of those poor blighters have sick mums and hungry children and have to sell off their cars off at great loss. Someone with your heightened sensibilities , Paul, would be moved to tears.

How about getting down to auto alley and helping them out by buying a car, or two, or three, or four , eh? And one thing you can rest assured of , with used car dealers –as opposed to asylum scammers— any money you contribute will go straight into their bank accounts. It definitely will NOT, NOT, NOT be transferred overseas to fund some jihadi cause.

@ Jay & Individual
<<The Sudanese claiming discrimination>>
Here you see one of the hidden cost of refugeeism. When they don’t get all they think they deserve there are cries of “discrimination”. And, now, under the new legislation being introduced by Gillard the accuser does NOT need to prove a thing. All they have to do is make the charge –those they accuse have to establish it didn’t happen. And you bet that any time an accusation is made, Paul’s friends at the ABC will run with it and give it coast to coast coverage.

SPQR,
The ting that really gets to me is that those who want to bring a spouse to Australia legitimatly get such a run-around at great expense both financially & emotionally whilst some crook, bleating refugee only has to spent a couple of years in well looked after detention. The decent migration applicant who overstayed by one, yes 1 day because on the date of the Visa renewal the Immigration Office was closed was told to go back to the home country & re-apply when fronting at that office the next day. The date when the office was closed for show day was actually the date set by the Immigration department for the Visa renewal. The other, a visitors Visa was rejected after three (3) months whilst the immigration site states a maximum of ten (10) days processing time for a visitor's Visa.

Individual,
...or that a Doctor who has a child with down syndrome is looked upon as an immigration risk while a former child soldier with PTSD and every kind of anger and behavioural issues know to science gets a free plane ticket, priority public dental care and rental assistance.
...and now they want to use boat people as cheap labour
As the man says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPR6zeoDcZY

I like this article, it's a U.S perspective but right on the money:
http://www.jack-donovan.com/axis/2012/11/the-bright-side-of-illegal-immigration/

I like this paragraph a lot:

"Because it has failed to secure its borders and enforce its own immigration laws to protect the interests of its citizens, the United States government has undermined its own authority and created a nation of bourgeois criminals. Instead of respecting the rule of law, millions of average, hard working Americans have chosen to ignore the law and abandon any sense of community and allegiance to each other. To make a profit, they hire foreigners because it’s cheaper and easier than hiring their neighbors’ kids and the people they grew up with. In a sane country, we’d hang these people for treason—or at least socially shun them—but America stopped making sense a long time ago. One wonders if a nation built on merchant morality and short-term profit seeking ever made much sense".

Jay, posting links to that neo-fascists Jack Donovan. Can you post some links to our very own local far right crimnal Jim Saleam. How are things down at All White HQ?

All White HQ?
Paul1405,
Is this the kind of sh.t you fag...s have to resort to ? You sad, sad, sad lack of life creature.

"To make a profit they hire foreigners ...". Did merchant morality ever make sense?

For a time it was hard for me to grasp this quote because of the violent and extremist language which scared me off - hang, shun, treason - it makes me want to shut my ears & run away. But I do agree with the extract above. It is insane that we don't support our neighbours or value our community. It's the same thing when I am buying anything - I look for the cheapest price. When I find it I don't worry if it was made locally or not - I can't afford the luxury after paying for life's basic essentials.

He and you also I presume, blame the lack of border control and inflow of refugees for the breakdown. But tighter borders wouldn't stop consumers wanting cheap imports.

So what is the merchant system not border control refugees that is the problem. although people desperate to work for sub standard wages and conditions doesn't help either. But that's also a symptom of the merchant system.

In this system if we want food and shelter we must complete, Not just be willing to do some work but compete for a chance to do some work. Why? Because the merchant system owns the land.

If the people had their rightfull free access to land, as to air water and sunlight, we could grow food and build shelter for ourselves without having to compete. We could cooperate with neighbours and anyone else you want to live here. There's plenty of space!

So if we see things this way it isn't borders refugees, it's the merchant system which is based on land ownership & the theft of a birthright. I really encourage you to look at the NTW link I provided for a grassroots way out of this mess

individual are you Jay's mouth peace. Yes another group on your hate list the fag..ets the homosexuals, people that are different to your ideal. You get all stroppy because I ask "How are things down at All White HQ" as you wont admit to the name of the extreme micro organisation you are members of, I called it 'All White'. You took offense at that, yet when someone posted this rubbish:
"I think the solution here is quite obvious: naval mines in the Timor Sea. That should keep them from reaching our shores.."
There was not a peep of indignation from you then.

individual,

You should bring yourself up to speed on Jay's rhetoric - that is exactly the sort of thinking he peddles. If you're going to come out on someone's side, it's best to be aware of their mindset.

Paul,

I gather you are quite happy for thousands of illegal immigrants to drown at sea? Or perhaps you would like to lay on a ferry service for the hundreds of thousands that would like to come?

Just because you belong to the party of alien whisperers and pseudo environmentalists, does not mean that the rest of us live on fantasy island. Calling others Nazis is pathetic, and is as factually based as calling you a Stalinist. A survey done some years ago, showed that about 80% of the population believes that stopping the boats is important, are 80% of Australians Nazis?

The reason Juliar has triple back flipped over this issue is because this stuff up of Labor and the greens matters to blue collar workers as well as conservatives. The problem is that the smugglers know that Labor is spineless and collapses with a light puff.

"I think the solution here is quite obvious: naval mines in the Timor Sea. That should keep them from reaching our shores.."
Paul 1405,
The time for that hasn't yet come otherwise it'd be you lot advocating it most. Why is that the weirdo racists always accuse normal people as being racist when they have no answer to their own stupidity.
You'll be among the first & the loudest to ask our armed forces to protect you when the time comes to defend ourselves. Where will you be hiding ?

You should bring yourself up to speed on Jay's rhetoric
Poirot,
perhaps I should for at least he can spell. Being his mouth peace. Gawd !

individual,

I didn't write anything about you being Jay's "mouth peace".

(Btw, since you're being pedantic - you began your last sentence with a lowercase letter...tch, tch:)

SM
From your many and varied posts on this forum, and from nothing else, I would brand you a conservative, but at time you display genuine liberalism. If you were to brand me a Stalinist, I would reply that you are wrong as my interpretation of a Stalinist does not fit me. Call me a socialist or a progressive a left winger if you like, a fair comment.
Likewise I read the posts of Jay, and from those alone, I concluded many of his/hers views parallel National Socialism or Nazi for short. As I brand you a conservative I brand Jay a Nazi or fascist. its not meant as an insult but rather what I perceive Jay to be. At another time and in another place people were proud to be branded Nazis. Unfortunately for them events in history have somewhat tarnished the image.
I take it Individual your "weirdo racists" reference is aimed at me, okay. Then there is "accuse normal people as being racist" I assume you are one of the 'normal people'. It is interesting how extremist like to cloak their radical views in normality.
During the Vietnam War Nixon asked General Westmoreland how could he defeat the North Vietnamese, Westmoreland replied blandly "Use nuclear bombs on Hanoi" or something similar. If Nixon agreed and acted for the 'normal people' in a perceived 'reasonable manner' then we would have no asylum seeker problem today. My point is how easy extremism can be sold to the 'normal people' as reasonable and necessary.

Paul1405,
How is protecting once's life & livelihood extreme i.e. not normal ?
Ask yourself this question; why do we get so many Muslim refugees & hardly any other ? I tell you why, because others don't have an agenda to change the world for worse. It proves to me that they are not reuses otherwise I'd have thought they'd be only too happy to shirk themselves of what causes them to pack up & leave. No, instead they gradually plant this nonsense ideology everywhere they go because they're told to. That is my experience & I stick to it. It is for you to prove me wrong not just accuse me of being wrong.
When the crap hits the fan I'll be there to tell you I told you so.

oops ! I made a typo above. should be refugees not reuses, apologies.

Bazz,

Have just noticed your 24 November post. What a marvellous solution to the problem of illegals. The mines need all kinds of labour, and as most of our recent arrivals appear to be strong, healthy young men who are used to hot climates, it would seem ideal for all parties.

I propose we sack the whole vacillating lot we have in Office right now making poor decisions without our approval, and instead install people with common sense in their place.

Come on Bazz, step forward and throw your hat in the ring!!

Individual,

If 80-90% of Somalians plan to return to their home country, all I can say is that I hope they have enjoyed the vacation we paid for.
Any chance Somalia would pay for one for me? Really could do with one, but can't afford it while I contine paying for theirs.

Cheers, As Tony Lavis would say