<< ...Ludwig is not either but you both want to have ONLY YOUR THOUGHTS on your pet issues spoken. >>

Huh??

Belly could you perhaps expand on just what you mean by this.

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I don’t see the issue of population growth as being complex at all. There are however intractable or near-intractable problems when it comes to dealing with it.

In Australia, the most important issue is the terrible closeness of government to the business sector. We’ve got the national decision-maker, which is supposed to be independent of undue influence and we’ve got the hugely powerful big business lobby which very strongly influences, in fact; literally buys its way from government.

THIS is our great problem!

Across the world this is a major issue. Many other countries also have religious, cultural and social security brickwalls.

But as to the advantages and disadvantages of population growth and an understanding that ‘growth’ is a combination of very good and very bad components that are really not hard to separate, I don’t think it is all that complex.

Bazz first, oil plays very Little part in the generation of electricity, coal far from a shortage, and natural Gas can and will fill that hole if one ever exists.
I think your view in relation to that type of power is much as mine is, no shortage exists, or is on the horizon,but cleaner energy is needed.
Petroleum, surely that must be what you are talking about? trains can run on electricity, but need not, right now trucks and buses are running on used cooking oils.
We CAN RUN OUR ROAD TRANSPORT AND ALL INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES ON SUBSTITUTES THAT EXIST ALREADY.
And as Germany did in ww2, a long time ago use manufactured fuels, yet we may not need to.
You ignore oil prices near double the price at the start of the GFC did not stall the world economy.
Bad investments, over spending and borrowing , investing in phantom things and massive fraud bought about the GFC.

Ludwig yes mate true, I have seen you get upset with me and others over this subject.
And good or bad every developed country,s government considers its self in partnership with business.
Often the interests are common ones.
Bazz talks of stopping growth, we call that stagnation and fear it.
Can one country stall, stop growing and not become poor, not be defenseless?
I haven my doubts.
Complex? say we stop, stand still, are not a part of the worlds economy.
Our purchasing power will fall, how do we buy medicines.
How can we travel if our currency is just paper in every other one.
If we stop that must happen or will it?

Belly;
I know it is hard to accept and you have plenty of company, but not
Martin Ferguson.

The generation of electricity will not be a problem for a while yet.
However if we start using gas and CTL (coal to liquids) for transport
fuels, that change will deplete coal and gas very quickly.

The amount of energy used for transport is about 9 times that used for
all other purposes. I saw that figure just recently but cannot find it
at the moment. So you can see that gas and coal will deplete very
quickly if we start using them for transport.
It will quickly reach a question of drive or have the lights on.
Of course that takes no account of the relative costs. CTL and gas
conversions would cost really big money.
Some say the US cannot afford to do the conversion, as their credit
is just not good enough.
All this is why I say we should ban all export of gas and coal, we will need it.

Belly, you said this;
You ignore oil prices near double the price at the start of the GFC did not stall the world economy.

But it did stall the economy, that is exactly what did it !
Oil prices rose during 2007 and house mortgage defaults starting
rising and by July 2008 oil reached $147 and the economy crashed
in August and September.

I will try and dig out those figures tomorrow and give you the links.

Bazz you and I by gaining the right to practice our hobby, have proved we have some intelligence.
And yes, like in every matter, we can be wrong.
This is a complex many sided issue.
You and I have seen in our life the costs of petrol rise continually.
Not because of shortages.
The tax monkey rides on motorists backs.
We know that tax is not all used on roads, yet in our state, an extra tax, to fund roads! was put on top.
So yes international oil prices have gone from hight to very high, then moderatly high.
Often OPEC a perfect reason for the west to hasten its independents from oil, flogs us with flow control to keep the prices up.
Price has little to do with supply availability.
Share markets, while driving our system, , in fuel at least impact on price often
Acting Like chook,s in a yard full of foxes, rises or falls can start with spoken threats in the middle east.
I am not thinking of coal to fuel, yes that was Germany,s ww2 answer, in part.
But first of Natural gas, we have heaps.
Then enthinol, better cheaper and not food reducing ways to produce it exist.
News film exists of thousands of tonns of Oranges DUMPED in this country this month.
Opportunistic use of these type of things, mayt be blended with things with less sugar content can make ethinol.
A day, in my view, will come we can and will have smaller ethinol producing plants in the right areas to re use crop wast and waste to generate our fuels, renewable at last.
continued

I doubt Bazz any issue, any at all, we talk about here has only one possible out come.
So we should not think this is a quick answer one.
I basically fear over population.
And it is my clear view this country,s population potential must not be blindly based on per hectare.
But until we learn a great deal more on how to live in peace and as one humanity the game is to get bigger and stronger, in self defense.
I shudder to think we all got out of our warm beds but in our western developed world, in OUR country!last night millions slept out and went hungry.
And the understanding few truly care hurts.
I have had to confront this country needs growth.
Growth in productivity population.
May be we stumble along until the course of natural events, the phantom mother nature settles the issue.