Given the overwheling evidence, the series of confessions by Guards stationed at Guantanamo providing clear and specific corroboration to detainee accounts, is it not time for Australian media to take this story seriously.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/confessions-of-a-guantanamo-guard-1624749.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/02/26/confessions-of-a-gitmo-guard/

Other guards have commited suicide or are suffering continuing trauma from the events they witnessed and the actions they performed.

The testimony from so many disparate sources all corroborate unerringly the very same details attested by some many detainees. Interrogation footage of the child Kahr held at Guanatanamo are also publicly available and they too provide first hand testimony.

Yes that is right I'm sure.

Let's face it, detained terrorists would never lie, now would they.

Unfortunately Americans lost track of what side they are on.
However in truth, we heard about it because America warts and all, is far better than those they fight.
No innocent throat cut for video, no screams in fear from the victim.
Let us be grateful for America, and not blind to the butchers of children they fight.

You're living in La-La Land if you don't think horrible stuff happens in war. That particular moral dilemma is as old as war itself. The debate about whether torture actually works or not is relatively new, though.

I think the only way it would net good info is if you know for A FACT the detainee knows the information you're after. Otherwise, you can't trust the intel. I'll tell you anything you want ... or don't for that matter too ... if you're drilling holes in me with a black and decker.

Still waiting on a topic on the morals of the enemy hacking off heads live on TV and posting the vids online. That won't happen because somehow *we* expect OUR troops to act better than the enemy.

I'm sorry, but if I know some enemy combatant planted a bombs for me and my mates I'm going to get that info. Or he'll die trying.

Obama was to shut down places like Guantanamo but didn't.He just expanded the wars of imperialism.

http://www.ae911truth.org/ The proof of controlled demolition is absolute scientific fact.

hasbeen, the testimony is from US guards not detainees.
Belly and Stg who fed you that fiction? What war and if it is a war how do you treat prisoners of war?

Torture has a brutalizing effect. What we do today to supposed terrorists we will find reasons to repeat against others and inevitably against each other.

Principles hastily abandoned will not easily be restored.

And .... don't forget the My Lai massacre.

Yes, those righteous American soldiers were good and true, putting their lives on the line to protect us. Yep, true heroes ..... until they got caught raping and mutilating the women of My Lai (both before and after they murdered them). Yes, those heroes of Charlie Company of 1st Battalion 20th Infantry Regiment. They butchered, mutilated, raped and murdered nearly 500 innocent, unarmed civilians, mostly women, children, infants and elderly people. For a period before the massacre, they gang raped the women.

Wonderful American "justice" found only ONE of these criminal murderers guilty. He was found guilty of 22 murders, and served .... wait for it ... 3 and 1/2 years under house arrest. He was then freed, to live his life in total freedom.

The victims were not "American". The victims were not "white". The victims had ZERO value to America.

Therefore .....

American "justice" spoke.

And the majority of Americans (and Australians) just couldn't care less.

Our morality is steeped in double standards, and those double standards go right back into history's pages.

Look at the heinous crime committed by the USA with their secret (at the time) and illegal carpet bombing of neutral Cambodia, during which they murdered, on purpose, over a hundred thousand totally innocent civilians. They knew they were dropping bombs directly onto innocent civilians who had NO anti American sentiment whatsoever. It was a major USA crime against humanity.

But, when you've got the bombs, the military and the power, you can do what you want without consequence.

The human race is STILL at a VERY primitive stage of it's intellectual biology. We "think" we are superior to other species of animals. We're not.

Who fed us that?
Who fed you and DiamondPete the idea without America we would not be slaves.
Who blinded you to the awful murders of the enemy, why have you not taken their far worse actions to heart.
Most importantly your views are shared by a phone box full of people.
As STG said me too after seeing the mass murders.
The true left is truly lost.
Three wise? Monkeys unable to see or hear truth.
And totally unwilling to speak it

So "terrorists" only act in response to what we do? Please. Do you REALLY think they care? They only care about one thing; their ridiculous hypocritical religion

stG like most think that the terrorists are only Muslim.The Gulf of Tonkin incident which was used as an excuse to send troops to Vietnam has now been disclosed as a lie.We know Iraq was a lie.There were no WMD's.It was always about the oil.

The West has used many false flag incidents to initiate wars and invasions.Nothing has changed.

see http://globalresearch.ca/

@ YEBIGA,

<<Torture has a brutalizing effect. What we do today to supposed terrorists we will find reasons to repeat against others and inevitably against each other.>>

I agree with Stg “You're living in La-La Land”

The activities spotlighted by you are not likely to convert too many of the *uncommitted* to terrorism.

What are far more likely to foster terrorism are, things like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltsv40vCP7g
And this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjIBrs4_b98

And more often than not, things like this: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5419#147663

Arjay,

'Resource wars' are nothing new and they are 'about' to go global and serious. Why do you think we're manoeuvring into a potential issue with China. *We're* getting sick and tired with dealing with these middle eastern whack job countries for their oil and now that it's slowly becoming a real affordability issue we need to figure out a way to keep our societal machine going or we'll just stop working.

Without oil our society stops. We need it. You and me will be growing our own food to stay alive. ZERO medical help. We will go tribal. As much as you don't like the government, I'm sure you enjoy your current comforts.

Sorry to the original poster. Slightly off topic. Maybe start a thread on the outcome of unaffordable oil.

The American psyche’.

At the end of the 19th century, the United States began to realize the potential they had as a world power. The leaders of the United States saw no reason that they should not become an imperial power and decided it was necessary for them to begin immediately before Europe had complete colonial control over the world.

The United States developed naval bases in the Caribbean and Pacific stepping into the affairs of other countries when it was necessary in order to maintain the well being of North and South America. The American administration believed that taking over other countries was perfectly ethical for Americans because they were the superior race.

The ideas of Social Darwinism and Anglo-Saxonism were at the base. Americans believed that they had the right to colonize so that they could survive as the fittest. After establishing their new ideas were morally correct, the United States kicked off new foreign policy by establishing overseas military bases. American planters in Hawaii revolted against the traditional government there and planned to enter the Union.

When Venezuela was having border conflicts, the States intervened. When Cuba went to war with Spain for their independence, again the States intervened. From this Spanish/American war, they acquired Puerto Rico, Guam,Philippines, and naval rights in Cuba. In 10 short years they became an imperial power.

There is no good guy bad guy, but the American administration and the financiers who built the nation are morally bankrupt. From the McCarthyism of the 50’s that was nothing more than an attempt to stifle free thinking and speech to the assassination of the only Catholic President the shadows that direct the Administration manipulate the population. In the American democracy you have the right to say nearly anything you want, but if you get popular support, they will demolish you just like they demolished the WTC’s.

Remember superman? The voice over pronounced “he fights for truth, justice, and the American way”…..Guantanamo is the American way.

@SPQR

The testimony is by US guards!
I am not suggesting anyone is fostering terrorism

Rather my statement:"Torture has a brutalizing effect. What we do today to supposed terrorists we will find reasons to repeat against others and inevitably against each other."

This is drawing attention to desensitization.
First you torture a confirmed terrorist, then his children, than his friend, then refugees, then....

Have a look at US incarceration rates.

We are on a cultural spiral of stupidity and that will inevitably entail a growth in barbarism.

@sonofglion
I agree with most of what you say.
However, in all those events you sight the US denies culpability or intention.

In this instance of widespread torture there is no denial, only dissemblance as to what constitutes torture. In effect, this is official justification for its use.

Australia is a member of the coalition for the willing. As a citizen, this official torture regime is exercised in my name, defended by my government, assented to by my media, excused by my political, community and business leaders.

Thus, I and all Australians are culpable. I and all of us are parties to this treatment of other humans as less than animals, living in pig pens, in their own filth, injected with experimental drugs, denied hope or even the peace which comes with death.

What is meant by torture, going without your weeties for a week. In days gone by they would pull your arms and legs off one at a time.
While there are acts like stoning and cutting limbs off in the world i think it is hard to know what is torture.

For SPQR whats more scary those koran reciting kids or these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=295KeA1MTJc

Hi YEBIGA,

<< I am not suggesting anyone is fostering terrorism …[but] drawing attention to [our] desensitization [to it]>>

That may be your intention but I suspect the mad rush to spill the beans on any hint of “abuse” however flimsy its basis –and the ready rewarding of anyone who can spin such a story produces serious collateral damage [ And I am not pretending to know the answer/alternative to it]

I am debating with a chappy on another thread, at the present time, who knows all about all the wrongs of the USA: “the biggest terrorist in the last 70 years” but DOES NOT KNOW –and further, DOES NOT WANT TO KNOW about the far greater wrongs of the other side. And what makes it really tragic is, he grew-up and was “EDUCATED” in Australia.

Have look at these posters from the streets of Tehran : http://tinyurl.com/8snkg3j
(all courtesy of some high principled YEBIGA somewhere in New York, London or OLO)

And, that is before we even get to all those thousands who vote Green –what sort of warped upbringing , and one-eyed presentation of events must they have endured to turn out the way they have?

<<For SPQR whats more scary those koran reciting kids or these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=295KeA1MTJc >>

Both are scarey –but the Koranic automatons are MORE scarey, because the madrassas are regularly used as recruiting grounds for suicide bombers --you can't get much more "desensitization" than that!
http://mydailyclarity.com/2009/12/international-students-and-pakistan%E2%80%99s-conservative-madrassas

579>> What is meant by torture, going without your weeties for a week. In days gone by they would pull your arms and legs off one at a time.
While there are acts like stoning and cutting limbs off in the world i think it is hard to know what is torture<<

There you have it 579, one is barbaric and comes from a culture that lives by pre medieval laws and the other is modern first world country acting medieval.

The only thing that inhumane captivity achieves is disenfranchising the rest of the moderate Moslems. Criminal acts should be punished under the law. We have to be vigilant against Moslems who strive for a global caliphate but remember that we Caucasians went to them, now they are coming to us and inhumane or degrading treatment of prisoners is not justifiable. We didn’t do it to the NAZI’s, and they killed millions. Perhaps it is because they were Caucasians.

There is a racial as well as religious fascet to it.

Just a couple are using this thread to kick the USA and ignore the primitive religion that kills in fear its youth may be a tracked to American culture.
Useless to try talking, years of avoiding truth have stalled thought.

It is convenient to pursue a nihilistic line of argumentation where each side can point the finger at the other.

Personally, I have no issue with a frank statement of intent wishing to dominate the world according. That would demand clear intentions and levels of accountability, responsibility.
and competency now entirely absent.

My objection is to the mendacious platitudes to freedom, democracy and human dignity. Truth twisted by our mass media to an increasingly stupefied and gullible populace; daily rendered less aware of reality and thus less competent to deal with the serious challenges ahead.

Testament to this growing atrophy is daily more apparent in every strata of our culture: from the irresolvable financial crisis in Europe and AMerica, the pointless wars in the middle east, impotence in the face of environmental threats or corporate malfeasance. Whether it is the sheer banality of what we watch on our TVs or the acceptance and justification of torture.

We have come to this sad point, where we joke of torture and justify it because those who are significantly less educated, and impoverished, who's nations are occupied by us- when they respond violently to our intrusions we must demonize them and dehumanize them - not as freedom fighters but as crazed animals

Sorry bloke, I saw a warning in your post so this is my last in this thread.
Every time those BIG WORDS are used to highlight one sides wrongs and forget the others its time to go.
Yes the torture was wrong, very much so, it defamed those who did it and those who hid it.
Yet I see no reference to the every day every hour hate and torture of even fellow country men, women, and yes children.
Enjoy but ignore at your peril

I've read many of the various opinions herein, apropos 'Gitmo' and what allegedly occurs down there, and I simply don't know ?

But some of the views you're peddling YEBIGA about 'Prisoners of War' is absolute nonsense. My understanding of those who are allegedly detained down there, they're terrorists. Terrorists do not enjoy the protection of being deemed POW.

Terriorists are criminals, nothing more or less. It was BELLY who put it quite succinctly, they target women, children, civilians, not regular, and armed soldiers.

So my friend, I do apprecite your comments of the deleterious effect such unpalatable work must have on those who are tasked with guarding these individuals. I suppose it could well be argued, they're not part of the cultural elite ?

But after all, aren't they all soldiers, perhaps even provost corps, and does it not form part of their regular duty ?

If there is evidence of an inordinately high level of emotional dysfunction amongst staff thereat, perhaps a more carfully considered selection process should be employed, in order to choose more emotionally stable and mature staffing levels are maintained ?

@O sung wu
I am astounded at the number of posters who no longer believe torture is unacceptable. If the rationale is because of the barbarity of the "terrorists" how are we then any better.

The IRA placed bombs in public places which targetted the public. We did not demonise them as sub-human.

The US reluctance to take these "detainees" or to trial them with laws which prevent them defending themselves is quite bizarre. 12 years after 9/11 and no one has been convicted in any approaching a hearing with verifiable evidence.

@belly where on earth are these extremists torturing us westerners?

Come on folks lift your game!

Lift my game!
You are an extraordinary person.
Pakistan, for a start,
Leave you too it bloke you have a closed mind.

@belly
And what pray tell are these tortured western souls doing in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq? Are they missionaries? Aid Workers?

Lets assume you are right.

But to be fair, are there any Muslim nations sending troops into western countries, abducting locals and taking them back to their countries to be detained indefinitely? Any spring to mind?

Closed mind, indeed!

YEBIGA,

Well said on this thread.

It's a slippery slope when we begin to jettison civilised principles. I've been lectured lately just how important it is that we value a certain standard of conduct - even during animosities.

It only took two US administrations under the same president to begin to reverse procedures and contort definitions with a purpose to rescind long held principles.

Thank you poirot.
I agree, a very slippery slope. I am more than a little surprised by the number of posters so forgiving of torture on an Australian forum. Very surprised! Major US and UK mainstream media forums would not be so ambivalent.

Australian's seem to increasingly reserve their outrage for undisciplined footballers and other celebrities. Or, more seriously we prefer to run campaigns against symptoms of boorishness like bullying, sexism, racial slurs, virtually anything of a PC bent. We are very big at declaring role models.

We have given up parenting, we want the community and media to teach our kids to not be boorish.

When it comes to more serious matters like poverty, distribution of wealth, hospital queues, foreign policy, education standards, etc,etc well we don't have the stomach for that.

Yebiga in the same vane, have any westerners blown up trains full of passengers, or crashed plane loads of passengers into office buildings in Muslim countries recently?

Have you heard of any gangs of westerner immigrants in Muslim countries, raping lone women in their new country.

No, I thought not. Don't be a fool by trying to defend the indefensible.

Come on this bloke/woman is living in another reality.
Poirot I never bought in to the word war against you as we get near this subject.
I know your heart.
I do not, sorry to offend, think this poster or csteele are in the same mold.
The hardest headed anti Muslim among us, surely shares a wish, for a far better life and freedom for every woman, Child,and man not welded on to the control and slavery they must live with.
America, the world is in these country,s too, to feed and help, I do not support Christians there to interfere.
Now ignore this if truth frightens you, that America of Jewish ancestry, screaming from his cut throat,
This poster, so very full of a self assurance that is miss placed, has so easily forgotten him.
In the dream of a better world, or in efforts to grant sainthood to MURDERERS, we forget truth at our peril.
I WARN lies are the weapon most used to defend the indefensible.
And that for what ever reason I find no balance or wish for a better world in our author.
He/She seems to have other agendas, the death of Americas Ambassador, would we do that?
A better world comes after the clean up.

@hasbeen
19 goat herders over powered 4 planes and navigated them into the WTC, outsmarting the most technologically advanced super power in the history of man. No aircraft could intercept them. Not the CIA nor any other intelligence could detect them. The US government had never anticipated such an act - even after Oklahoma, and previous attempts on the WTC.

What confidence could you have in such a bumbling super power?

Then, to capture another rich goat herder and his crafty shepherds 2 other countries must be invaded. Also, we think the goat herders have developed a new 3 letter acronym - WMD

Oops, but goat herders sadly do not have WMDS. Oh well, sorry about that invasion. Sorry about the 1 million dead. Can't help those refugees. Never mind we will find you a better leader.

Of course in revenge, there are now gangs of muslim immigrants rampaging throughout Western countries raping white women. These goat herders are an ingenious lot.

Belly,

I'm proud. in that case, to support YEBIGA.

Are you telling me that the principles that we have hitherto prided ourselves in aren't worth two bob? I grew up reading exhilarating stories of ingenuity and escape from prisoner of war camps. These escapades were possible because hostile countries adhered to certain principles in the confinement of prisoners.

Loudmouth, in particular, and backed by other posters, has spent weeks lecturing me on the Enlightenment values that have provided the apparatus around which western society has clung for its advancement.

Are you now telling me that facilities like Guantanamo and torture are to be the shining beacons our our future conduct?....that we regress to the use of mechanisms that we revile in others?

@ YEBIGA,

<<What confidence could you have in such a bumbling super power [who cannot stop “goat herders” running wild]>>

Believe it or not it aint about “super” power --it’s about “soft ” power.

We may have the biggest and bestest super power toys. But it’s the soft power of groups like the Human Rights Commission and its ten million sister commissions which frustrates our ability to deal with sneaky "goat herders".

For example, if for three weeks in succession “goat herders” had driven their flocks into town to munch on your petunia’s and crap all over your lawn. We would (still) not be permitted to put up a goat free fence. And any media reports about the “goat herders” behaving baldly would not be permitted to mention they were of "goat herder" appearance . And we couldn't even treat goats or their herders with any less kindness or any more suspicion than we treat non-goat herders. Since all of the above might be deemed “profiling” and in our wonderful multicultural-Human Rights Commission intimidated Western nation “profiling” is a big a NO NO and deemed far more heinous than any big POO POO on any front lawn.

And, after all, most “goat herders” are likely to be decent law abiding citizens. Who live quietly in the suburbs on their a ¼ acre block with their 300 goats.

And people like you YEBIGA --who have such an close affinity for “goat herders” that I have long suspected that there might be a goat or two in your recent lineage --make matter worse, since you are always pushing for more soft power to the Human Rights Commission and its ten million sister commissions.

<<Of course in revenge, there are now gangs of muslim immigrants rampaging throughout Western countries raping white women.>>
So prior to our involvement in the ME it was a region of tolerance and bliss –you’re showing your true colours now YEBIGA , and its goat skin yellow.

Never mind, SPQR, YEBIGA, he's the president of the George W. Bush fan club (Australian chapter : )

Going by his sensibilities, it should be acceptable to kill and maim with impunity (because after all, these folks were bickering forever anyway), destroy infrastructure, and guarantee yourself open-fettered access to whatever resources dictated your actions in the first place. In your wake, the only thing you leave is chronic instability and suffering - and all in the name of altruism.

Poirot I leave you in bad company.
Feel free to highlight the free wests sins.
And to ignore the other side, no back down, that is what you are doing.
Mothering foul murderers.
I would have thought that 14 year old young girl, a HERO was more worthy of support .
Tried Loudmouth, but fingers covered in blood.
In the end your approach looks best.
MOST OFFENSIVE? the implication, ANY POSTER here is not ashamed of those American acts as we stated, over and again!

Don't pull that one ,Belly.

You know me well enough to realise that my concerns regarding human conduct don't stop at boundaries between "us and them".

I'm sick of people taking advantage of that poor girl's fate to have a dig.

Do you believe it's admirable for the West to employ torture as a technique...even though we would deplore it used against us.

If we're attempting to hold up our values as something we're proud of, the worst thing we can do is let ourselves slide backwards to behaviour that marked a less enlightened time.

That Poirot has chosen to collaborate with you YEBIGA proves beyond any shadow of a doubt your wrong headedness.
She hasn’t supported a single decent initiative since …since … um ( I’ll have to get back to you on that one).

And Poirot is a graduate of the Pollyanna School of International Politics. Their main claim to fame is the belief that if all us Westerners just could agree to hold hands and sing kumbaya, the mad mullahs of the world would leave us alone.

Might also help if we stop splattering their countries with bombs to get at their resources....now that we've given up usurping their autonomy and their territory under colonialism.

To the Senate and the People of Rome:
It is a little sad that you have chosen to cast aspersions at my supposed goatish lineage.

I shall forebear this cretinous habit of yours and ask you to hold on to something firm whilst you consider whether the Parent or the child is responsible for running the house? The owner or the employee is accountable for obtaining a profit? The general or the soldier for assigning the strategy?

The USA has led our culture into wars with a people far less educated, technologically challenged, superstitious, backward, a people unable to manage their affairs, in short victims of history and religion.

People do not readily choose to kill themselves or others unless there is great reward or great despair and hopelessness. What is undeniable, is that this has ocurred under the stewardship of the USA, supported by a corporate media and a craven political system no longer capable of self reflection, intelligence or diplomacy.

If you have not already guessed, my concern is not essentially with the fate of these poor people or their sad history. My concern is that my Western Culture is bastardised by vermin of our own. Termites have secretly gnawed their way into power and are undermining the principles which enabled us to advance so extraordinarily in a mere 200 years. Principles which were bitterly learnt over a long, long time.

Good economic times are not coming back anytime soon. The world has been terribly mismanaged, all of Europe continues to teeter on the verge of financial ruin. Foreign relations are similarly fractured from Russia, the middle east and china.Throughout the world the divide between rich and poor gapes wider.

The radical goat herder is the eternal other; at other times the witch, the jew, the spy, the wog, the refugee. A diversion from the real crimes happening right in front of you.

YEBIGA,
<< It is a little sad that you have chosen to cast aspersions at my supposed goatish lineage>>
And here I was thinking by suggesting that you might be related to the divine Pan-- that half man half goat personage--that I was currying favor with you! And what gave it great credence, in my mind, was that Pan is “patron of shepherds and flocks” whom you have been so forthrightly defending.

<<The USA has led our culture into wars with a people far less educated, technologically challenged, superstitious, backward, a people unable to manage their affairs…>>
This might be read as quite shoganistic or racist, or something naughty with a “ist” behind it.
And I’m quite sure the people you describe so, would NOT agree with your assessment of them.
(you will no doubt be receiving a visit in a week or two from the all seeing all prying Human Rights Commission about that little gaff)

<<People do not readily choose to kill themselves or others unless there is great reward …>>
But there is a great reward on offer: eternal youth , 72 doe-eyed virgins who'll minister your every need, and rivers of wine for anyone who dies while on Jihad (I might even be tempted if I thought it was a firm offer!) Most Islamic terrorists –outside the Madrassah recruits --are NOT down and outs, but quite well educated and even rich. You might recall that Osama was the scion of a rich merchant.

<< my Western Culture is [being]bastardised ...>>
1) There was NO past golden age. Every war anyone ever fought was the mother of a lot of dastardly deeds. It is rather that the wars/enterprises of previous ages were not subject to same microscopic examination that they currently are , and
2) Islamic terrorists need no such justification. If they can’t point to some recent event that “offended” them , they will dredge-up an old one. You might recall that one of Osama’s gripes was that Spain and Portugal had been lost to Islam and had to be reconquered.

SPQR
Nobody suggested a golden age. Our history is full of many backward stutters and few forward strides. But through sheer persistence we had reached a level of ostensible civility. I am not foolish enough to believe it was ever much more than ostensible.

Yet, in this matter of torture we have ceased to even bother with the facade. Your capacity to laugh at this should give you pause.

There are as many Kangaroos directing traffic in Australia as there martyrs expecting 70 virgins to be waiting at their demise.

It is advisable to expand friends and thoughts outside the narrow circles given to us: cast aside poorly scripted Manichean narratives which have not changed since the dawn of man; and take an uncharted risky journey and maybe discover but once a genuine moment: a thought all your own. Imagine

YEBIGA,

<< But through sheer persistence we had reached a level of ostensible civility>>
But whose civility?
Civility is a cultural construct.
What we might consider civil behavour is not viewed as civil behavior by everyone. For example, some orthodox Muslims will not shake hands with a kaffir. And they consider allowing women to wear anything less than a full abaya to be downright offensive and provocative.

<<Yet, in this matter of torture we have ceased to even bother with the facade>>
The definition of what constitutes torture has been expanding.
I have heard it (seriously!) argued that, talking in a loud voice to prisoners or invading their personal space were aspects of torture!

<<It is advisable to expand friends and thoughts outside the narrow circles given to us: cast aside poorly scripted Manichean narratives which have not changed since the dawn of man; and take an uncharted risky journey>>
It seems to me that our govts & intelligence agencies might be doing just that when they consort with unsavory regimes. But they are invariable ridiculed for thinking outside "narrow circles" by the Mary Poppins-moralists Poirot and the YEBIGA who can't see the big picture.

SPQR
You and I travel different paths, but my view both sides share most views is still true.
The very left, lost forever, are in bigger numbers on the net, because it is the only place that can happen.
A sprookers corner would hear only the foot fall of passing people.
We should not take the baits, no words we find will be heard, no truths.
I put this thread as evidence, Iraq did not welcome the west? we stole their oil? on what true evidence.
Saddam did not poison thousands.
To feed such is to grant a one sided view the west is evil the east victims.
I retreat, I like two sided debate, but fixed minds rabbiting on ? no thanks, have fun.
PS watched us play Iraq this morning, no one holding a gun or whip at their heads!

Sadly, as Bell says, it is all too true, the left is lost. Whilst a critically important subject it is beyond the scope of this thread.

And yet, we find SPQR soliciting the aid of modern left wing post-modern/relativist thinking and declaring civility a "social construct". Imagine! And as if this patent obscuratanism was not contemptuous enough we then must endure examples of Muslim hand shaking and veils! The relevance of which is beyond contemplation.

Whatever will they think of next? "loud voices" raised by guards at detainees! Yes, it is these incidents that the US Military wishes to censor from any detainee (political prisoner) trial because these are matters of national security.

The idiocy of torture is not only its depravity, it is its sheer uselessness. On the other hand, if prisoners were treated decently, the US could simply release CCTV footage of their confessions, acquiring not only easy convictions but public confidence - doh

Reading over the previous posts, I came across SPQRs perverse reference that the strife in the middle east is not caused by the US super power but "soft power" - that committees of human rights were somehow to blame for who knows what.

Well, explain the relevance of this soft power to a family in Iraq who has bombs poring down on them. Or a drone strike which accidentally levels a building onto a child, a brother, a sister.

Never mind, the latte sipping intellectuals are busy campaigning against boorishness whilst the mainstream media makes the rest of us compliant.

Hi YEBIGA,

Just a few points in closing.

<<SPQRs perverse reference that the strife in the middle east is not caused by the US super power but "soft power" - that committees of human rights were somehow to blame for who knows what.>>
1) At no stage did I say the Human Rights bandwagion was responsible for the strife in the ME. Rather it is responsible for allowing that strife to infiltrate into OZ. And it is largely responsible for tying our hands when it comes to addressing it here in OZ.
2) The strife in the ME has little to do with the US. Despite the strange propensity of people like you to want the USA to play the role of world policeman (note you comment about its “stewardship”) and then in the next breath accuse it of being meddlesome. The strife in the ME (and elsewhere) has much, much more to do with a totalitarian ideology that rules most of the ME, Islam.

<< On the other hand, if prisoners were treated decently, the US could simply release CCTV footage of their confessions, acquiring not only easy convictions but public confidence – doh>>
It is doubtful that any amount evidence would convince you. Because you, and those you listen to, are primed to find fault.

As your last two efforts have been little better than a two year olds tantrum. We’ll leave it there till you have matured a little more an can understand some of the concepts.

Hi Belly,

You were spot-on.
Cheers

Spqr
Like the policies you defend, you choose to attack the man and not deal with the subject.
In this at least you are consistent.

If you but accepted some criticism of the USA your position would hold some persuasiveness but as it is you render a unthinking devotion to your masters. Why?
Civilization has existed without the US hegemony. Infact in historical terms, the US is a mere upstart. I could accept a defense that argued that the US is a mere rooky at this super power status and that subsequently it has only temporarily become intoxicated with its sudden power. I could half accept such an argument promising with time and experience we will see some maturity.

But this simple good v evil narrative augurs poorly for the hoped for maturity.

Please stop having tizzy fits about not responding to me time after time. I could only be so lucky

Belly,

The US certainly pulled its punches with Saddam when he was merrily gassing the Iranians during that war. They hardly murmured knowing full-well he was doing it...but at the time he was an ally, so they took no actions and continued to support Iraq's war effort against the Iranians.

The US gained unfettered access to Iraq's oil by means of the invasion. It's not a matter of stealing oil, but by refashioning the machinations from the ground up. When you gain control, even under the guise of delivering democracy, you gain influence.

Please don't tell me that the "whole" showdown was altruistic. How can killing many many thousands, destabilising and debilitating an entire country be altruistic.

If the yanks were so interested in stopping megalomaniac dictators, they would have been into Zimbabwe like a shot - no oil.

YEBIGA,

You might be interested in this extract from Seumas Milne's new book "The Revenge of History: the Battle for the 21st Century".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/19/new-world-order