Let's face it, our taxes, paid by almost everyone in some form or another, are paid by us, to the government, in the trust that they will be wisely distributed, with the bulk being to provide for our own.

One has to question just where we would be without the likes of the boat people debacle, the wasted billions on what I and many other consider a fruitless war and of cause the general waste from our governments at all three levels.

Perhaps it's time that we the people, were given the right to decide how and when our taxes are spent.

Perhaps there is the need for a referendum say every time we fill out that census form.

Blind Freddie can see we are headed south if something is not done to stop what must be considered unessesary waste, and with less taxes being collected, along with expending population, heaven help generations that follow.

What can be done?

Technically the people do get a say about the taxes, trouble is it is every 4 years at election time, if you don't like what they are doing you vote them out.
There is a problem with this.
1) Politicians LIE or don't say what they are really going to do to get elected or reelected (no carbon tax & dismantle pacific solution)
Every politician who lies to get elected should be immediately removed from office

Cont'd
Future generations will not be in trouble WE ARE we have thousands of homeless people (no homeless refugees - people on long medical waiting lists(no refugee waiting list for medical)
The Government has already had to reduce things to pay for there waste also introduce new taxes (carbon con)there is no money to give pensioners etc a needed raise but there is enough to raise foreign aid.
Not enough for states legal aid bills but the refugee legal aid bill is going to be in excess of $60 MILLION dollars.

We should not have so much as a say but we definitely need to be listened to by those whom we choose to have a say on our behalf. If we all had a say we'd be a lot worse off than now. We must accept that we can voice our opinion but we must also accept others' views. That's why we need spokespeople to balance & try to mix all our opinions into one bowl. These people are called politicians & they should be weighing all our views. The problem is that they don't & that's why our society is in tatters. Accept that all can not be pleased therefore we must exercise give & take on all fronts. Lately though we have nothing but traitors making deceitful deals with minority parties to manipulate the majority. They brag about democratic rights whilst we get dictated to. It's not a good show at all.
I'm afraid the scales are already dipping against us in Australia.

That's right indi, Mr Abbott offering a billion $ for a new hospital in Tasmania was down right stupid, just to get the greens on side.

Mr Abbott offering a billion $ for a new hospital in Tasmania
579,
Yes, that is stupid. Much better & cheaper to put a fence around Tasmania.

The old saying of "we get the government we deserve" is especially true in Australias case, the electorate is pig ignorant in the most part.

Not really sonofgloin

You see the people did not vote for this government, they voted almost equally for the libs and labor, but it's the ind who are to blame, as they have sat back and watched this government go from bad to worse and, appart from a few threats here and there, they have done nothing of what their constitutes would have thought they ought have done.

So much so that I doubt either of these three will see another term in their lives, not to mention the damage they have caused the ind movement. They know this themselves and are just hanging in their for their pension.

If any company board had acted like this government they would have been sacked years ago, as they have ticked all the wrong boxes, lies, mismanagement and wasteful miss use of public funds.

How dare they waste so much on illegals, provide them with so much, yet let some of our own rot in the streets.

It's time we had a better say in where our money goes.

Rehctub>> Not really sonofgloin
You see the people did not vote for this government, they voted almost equally for the libs and labor, but it's the ind who are to blame,
It's time we had a better say in where our money goes.<<

Your too kind in your appraisal Rehctub. I was a little hasty when I described the majority of Aussies as pig ignorant, as that intimates that they are floored due to lack of information rather than the ability to reason and recall past events. “Imbeciles” definitely fit better, somebody with an IQ between 25 and 50 and a mental age of between three and seven years.

Why I say this is because when they ditched Kev he had taken us from a Costello $20 BILLION surplus to a $87 BILLION Kev deficit and when almost 50% of the electorate still voted for Labor and Gillard it was near $100 Billion. It is now nearing $200 BILLION and at least one in three Aussies would vote them in again.

The imbeciles do not understand it is their debt … they have to pay it back. $200 Billion that could have gone on infrastructure and hospitals and childcare and youth training is gone, and what do we have to show for it? Kids boiled to death in roof cavities putting in bloody bats. The BER that delivered $300K value for a $900K outlay to all BUT the private school sector who thankfully were allowed to chose their own contractors rather than having the likes of the recently bankrupt Reid group front up on their door. Shade structures that cost schools $90K pre the BER costing $220K during and the subby who actually did the job got the pre BER rate.

Sadly the average Aussie is an imbecile.

Re the independents, they are not the first to betray their electorate to reap personal revenge on their previous brothers in arms. Oakeshot is a clown blessed by circumstance and Windsor is an old man getting even at any cost. Not to mention the pokie member from Tassie who Gillard shat on.

Butch says, we need more say in where our money goes, but there is no ideas of how this would happen.
I would have thought that is what we have elections for.

579, thats the whole point of this thread.

Did you vote for a carbon tax?

Did you vote for the huge increase in illegals?

I am damned sure those who voted for the independents didn't.

Of cause not, nobody did, they are simply the results of either incompetence, lies, or both, from this government.

So what's next on the agenda for this government, an increase in the GST perhaps, cause let's face it, they can only spend/waste money once, so something must give, especially if mining slows, effecting the MRRT.

Government, or more particularly democracy, is established in order to protect the interests of the people. Whether it is the old kings providing physical security from nearby enemies, the universal church providing spiritual safety from heretical views or democratically elected governments protecting what we see as the most important for us and our families.

The problem we face is that for each of us, we want different things for our families. Some people want protection from their possessions being stolen, others from migrants stealing their children's future jobs, protecting forests, protecting jobs, protecting family values, protecting money, etc. How do we all agree on what is our highest priority? To me, the biggest stumbling-block to us as Australians from having a successful government is our culture of "A fair go". Which to me says, "give me a break and let me do what I want".

It is our culture that stops us from agreeing on parliament because we think that we should have what we want, without providing the means to supply that need. Examples:

Greens want trees to be protected, but (at least in Tasmania) they are not willing or able to provide the means for humans to survive without trees.

The Union movement wants workers to be paid more to work less, but are not willing to support productivity measures or cost cutting to support the wages demanded and business growth.

The Conservative movement wants those who are successful to be able to enjoy that success without having to support the lazy who won't work. But they are not willing, off their own back (outside taxes) to provide for the needs of those who can't earn for themselves.

CONTINUED--
These are only a few of the demands that the political parties have and there are more.

If we change the culture the government effectiveness will change.

If we as a people looked out for each other and if ALL of us worked to provide the needs and wants of our neighbour, then we could lower our taxes profoundly.

If we ALL as a people stopped wanting the things that ultimately harm us, our family or our society then a whole lot of laws and law enforcement would be avoided.

If we ALL took from nature what we needed and left the rest then environmental concerns would ease.

If ALL employees turned up to work ready to work hard and work honestly and;

If ALL employers were honest, didn't exploit their workers and looked to provide suitable business for the community's needs then there is a lot less red tape and distrust in the world.

See the pattern? We as a people can provide a lot more to government than what we do. All we are willing to do at the moment is throw money in the direction of a government and say "It is not in my interests to invest my time and energy to benefitting society, I want you to take this tax money and do it all for me". I smell a problem.

So to conclude my views, Should we the people have more say? No, we have say enough, I believe we should all have more do. We should do more to benefit society instead of making selfish priorities our focus

RG, while I agree with much of what you say, wasting OUR TAXES on the likes of illegal imigants or un winnable wars is more what this thread is about.

Let's face it, with global turbulence as it is, we stand a better chance of being dragged into that mess, than we do of rising above it, esspecially if our mining does head south, as some predict, as mining, or more so the MRRT forms an essential part of our go forward.

And remember, we have witnessed first hand, a surplus of some 20 billion, be turned into something like a 200 billion debt (and counting)

Where do you think we might be if the next five years are more of the same!

As for not wanting to support our needy, you forget one very important point.

Very few would object to the GENUINE NEEDY being supported, but when that support money is simply WASTED and the kids go hungry, one has to question the logic behind governments insistence to maintain a welfare system that supports and allows for such waste.

There is a simple solution, but neither government, or the do-gooders will support it.

I can only assume it's because they (government) know that a huge percentage of that wasted welfare is returned in the form of taxes. It's sought of an each way bet.

One also questions the logic behind allowing many of our own to literally starve, while OUR TAXES get wasted on these non local issues.

You know things are crook when a person, who has worked most of their lives, looses their job, seeks support, this is after having paid tax all their lives, is then told to sell your house, as you have too much to qualify for support.

This is why I feel we need more say.

Nice theory, but it's never going to be the way the system will work, by having more say you will have 20 million different opinions, and get no where. No one ordered boat people, nor was there any agenda of encouraging them. Boat people are pushing them-self in front of other people that are waiting to be invited here. No boat people will not stop immigration.
If you read the treasury blurb, national debt will peak in 2012 before declining in following years, as stated some 3 years ago.
Even if AU was financed totally by super or futures funds, that is still national debt, because the people that own the super want interest on their money.
So if you can't put up any ideas of a perfect society, it's just talk.

Butch,
The only way I can see for us to get more say is to introduce Citizen Initated Referenda, CIR, where as if x number of people sign a petition the government must hold a referenda on the issue at next election.

This makes the pollies think before introducing new legislation. Would we now have a carbon tax or masses of illegals entering, or would we have sent troops to Iraq?

I think this would work but as it takes some power from the pollies i doubt we will ever see CIR operating here.

This discussion is ignoring the differences between state and federal funding.

The Federal Government issues a sovereign currency and thus can always purchase anything available for purchase with Australian dollars.

The Federal Government could increase all pensions if it could be satisfied that the balances created by computer key strokes in pensioners' bank account were only spent on goods and services provided wholly from within Australia.

State governments do not have the same luxury. They can only spend money that they can collect from citizens and businesses, as either taxes or loans, or which are provided by grants from the issuer of the sovereign currency.

The present federal opposition spokesmen on economic matters either do not understand these points or they are deliberately misleading the Australian people.

Any currency issuing (sovereign) government can afford to run a budget deficit that at is least, on average, in proportion to the rate of growth of the economy.

The problem is that in economic downturns the budget must move towards deficit as a result of automatic increases in expenditures on benefits, particularly unemployment benefits, and tax collections diminish entirely as a result of the downturn and the only way out is to further increase the deficit immediately.

That is what the Australian government did in when the GFC hit. Only when an economy is overheating should the currency issue move towards a budget surplus.

Any budget surplus curtails economic activity.

579...say you will have 20 million different opinions, and get no where.

That's why a referendum may work.

No one ordered boat people, nor was there any agenda of encouraging them.

Ah, but even you must admit, that if not for labor's 'open door policy' the numbers may have increased, but certainly not exploded as they have.

Not only have they had a huge hand in causing the problem, they have moved way too slow toward a solution, even then, they won't outrightly say, Australia is a no-go zone for illegals arriving on boats. At best, they say you face the prospect of being taken to either N.............

It's just laughable to think how poorly this has been handled, as the best they could do was to try and lay blame elsewhere.

The country was held to ransom by Mr Abbott, not voting for Malaysia.
Will Nauru work , Yet to be tested. There is no sure solution. If the boat people were not there immigration will continue, through invitation channels as normal.
Referendums have a dismal record when it comes to the vote. You can not have a referendum with options, yes no only. Besides a expense conscience chap like yourself would baulk at the expense.
Economic activity will slow dramatically with out money being there for them to borrow, at a reasonable rate. This is why we have a deficit, but people like butch call it waste. You can-not have it both ways.

579....Economic activity will slow dramatically with out money being there for them to borrow, at a reasonable rate. This is why we have a deficit, but people like butch call it waste. You can-not have it both ways.

Nothing like the old foot in mouth, hey!

.....at a reasonable rate.
So, tell me, is $100,000,000.00 every day your measure of 'a reasonable rate'.

Waste, sorry but we are limited to 350 words, so I sill have to cut it short and just give topics, rather than details.
Insulation, Solar, School Halls, Fuel Watch, Grocery Watch, ar what's the point, very few people are unaware of the waste overseen from this labor P M, her understudies and of cause her axed predecessor.

Malaysia, would be like to see your kids sent there without protection. There must be a reason as to why they won't sign the refugee convention.

Besides, how many boats arrived in the five years prior to Mr Rudd introdcing his grand plan?

rehctub stated;
"Insulation, Solar, School Halls, Fuel Watch, Grocery Watch,"

Insulation and school halls together with a pre-Christmas cash handout were part of a stimulus package without which unemployment levels would have shot up and much of the Australian economy would have collapsed during the GFC.

In the Hawke Government era a grocery watch system in the Hunter Valley at least helped keep the grocery supermarkets "honest".
The solar electric panels were largely a state issue where some fool(s) offered a ridiculous price for any electricity generated. Solar electricity is not, and may never be, produced efficiently .

Electricity generation and distribution and landline telephones and water and sewerage services are each natural monopolies which should be retained within the control of the people and their representatives. It is a matter of finding the most efficient way of doing that and ensuring that politicians are not exploiting the people they are supposed to represent.

579 - Don't blame Abbott for Malaysia it is a flawed negotiation BAD DEAL we get 4000 but only give them 800 people plus we have to support the 800 we give them. NO company or organization would be able to justify such a bad deal.
Abbott wants TPV reintroduced that will go a long way to stopping them as they go home when it is safe. A LOT are economic refugees looking for the big handout and welfare for life.
Remember Malaysia and Indonesia DO NOT give them anything not 1cent we give them everything for nothing.

Philip, you have no idea what Malaysia is all about. Mr Abbott would not support Malaysia because he was scared stiff it would work.
Mr Abbott lives in the Golden years as he says, with his hero Mr Howard.
But time and tide has moved on, and Nauru has yet to be tested

579 Quote "you have no idea what Malaysia is all about" Please enlighten everyone how a 5 for 1 swap plus we pay the costs for the one is good. Malaysia deal it would have to have been continually re-negotiated we have had nearly 1300 come in less than 3.5 weeks.
They would keep coming because Malaysia and Indonesia give them nothing by coming and getting sent back they at least get supported by Australian taxpayers.
Nauru wont work for the same reason Too many coming the they will get refugee advocates, lawyer and do gooders for free (bleeding heart brigade) and all supported by the Australian taxpayers.

Philip you did not quote the punch line.
The deal is as you say, they get sent to Malaysia in exchange for refugees that have already been processed, but by being sent to Malaysia they go to the back of the waiting list to be processed. In the meantime they have risked their lives on a leaky boat which cost all of their money, believed to be 10,000 $. So they should have gone to malaysia, or stayed in malaysia until they were processed. Plenty of venture but no gain.

Foyle, I have few arguments about that, but there is a huge difference between a good plan, and a well implemented plan.

This is where I have the problem and, while not being capable of doing something is not a crime, going ahead, despite advice to the contrary is, and it cost young lives.

In fact, had the likes of the PM been company directors, i have little doubt they would have faced serious charges, based on criminal negligence.

rehctub
I agree. The democratic process does need to be strengthened beyond the election cycle every four years.

The idea of a referendum on issues is a good one but in that there has to be some care on how referenda are presented. The Republic referendum is an example where the wording was manipulated toward a certain outcome.

In the ACT the citizens voted twice against self-government and in the end it was forced upon us.

The idea that we should hold government to account is one thing, the idea that people can actually have a greater say is even better despite some of the flaws of democracy. The alternative is worse.

The idea that people are too dumb for better democracy is a furphy. There is a difference between dumbing down and inherent human potential for sound reasoning and comprehension given different conditions.

579 Here is the flaw in your comments "Malaysia and Indonesia DO NOT give them anything not 1cent we give them everything for nothing."
They do not have unlimited funds so they can't afford to stay in those countries for say a year or so. If they are caught there they have to also pay bribes to not be caught. There are lots they have to work many hours a day for food and lodging only NO money.

If they hadn't paid 10,000 to get on a leaky boat they would have had plenty of money.

579 - from info on a tv doco a lot borrow the money or a relative in Australia pays.

If the people smugglers have nothing to sell, the boats will stop, their (the boat people) money will be saved and our tax billions can go to a more worthy IN HOUSE cause.

All non Australian issues should be funded from our foreign aid budget and, if there's nothing left, tough. Natural disasters are an exception.

To simply tax our taxes, amd allocate them to someone else's problems is boarder lining on fraud in my view.

rechtub raises an interesting question, what can be done.
I would answer: become involved in the political process and work from within.
By that I mean, start with the basic concept of how our democracy is supposed to work.
Our local elected representatives should represent the wishes of the electorate or constituency.
Over time, however, major parties have formed and have become bigger than the voters, i.e. policy is dictated by the party machine and not by members of electorates.
But need this remain the case?
I would answer no.
Many people think that the only way they can be engaged with the political process is to vote at election time.
Not so.
While our local member may ignore most emails, as they're poorly written rants, they do not ignore phone calls and well worded letters and emails.
I am in regular contact with my state and federal member, and I do not hesitate to let them know my position.
I know for a fact, that if a member gets a heap of local correspondence about an issue, even if it's counter to party policy, he/she will be influenced. Why? Because the party bestows preselection, but it's the local voters who bestow the gig.
The next level is to find a party that most closely identifies with your views, and join. You then have an opportunity to argue for what you believe and to influence party policy.
The local member is most sensitive to comments from local party members.
I'm bemused by this eternal cry that politicians are ignoring voters at a time when party membership of all parties is at an all time low.
Don't like what's happening?
Then join, campaign and change your party's position on what's happening.
Many local branches have only a couple of dozen members. If you care about an issue, get a bunch of like minded folk together and all join the local branch. Most branches are so small it only requires a handful to take over a branch.
And then watch your local member sit up and pay attention.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Good advice Anton

Many people don't actually vote for a party, they often vote for, or against, a person.

John Howard was a prime example, whereby many good people were tossed out, purely in backlash to JH and work choices.