14 days Parliament sits and the race to the bottom resumes.
Each side lead by the wrong person, each trying to turn small wins in to mountains.
But headlines are unlikely to be absent.
The Slipper fiasco, in constructed and planed nature will bring headlines till Christmas.
The failure of carbon tax to frighten the chooks.
Both could see a rise in Labors polling, but will not not under Gillard.
Like two battered bits of flotsam washing again a sea wall the two leaders will rise and fall, not ever achieving acceptable heights.
Will this storm wash them both away?
We can only hope so.

Yes but Belly, policies matter much more than leaders.

And the party that needs to change its policies is the party that is set to go down at the next election if they don’t!

Labor has got to change. Liberal with win without changing… although they will immediately and interminably be on the nose and will not be likely to last more than one term.

A major change by Labor may not win them the next election. It may take time for the voters to be convinced of their sincerity. But they’ll then be set to romp it in at the next election…. if they change in the way that I have suggested numerous times on OLO::

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13874#239756

Lucky for Labor, they’ve got the ideal person waiting to become leader, who can make this sort change happen and in a sincere manner - Bob Carr.

I had no intention of starting another thread on politics, yet.
Yesterday I got an e mail, anti Labor, and from a mate, he even said he knows I am welded on ALP.
It challenged me, Ludwig does too.
My views are firmly held, the two running our country, lets call them flotsam and jetsom, are as unpopular as one another.
Oh make no mistake, I think Labors policy's are just great, NBN, disability plans, health , pension increases.
Carbon tax, mining tax, Labor continues to be the only reformist party in this country.
Try avoiding the polls, but know it is pointless, Tony Abbott remains as unliked as he ever was, *The Mad Monk* lives, still and forever.
Gillard, stained forever and beyond saving, by her method of getting her job, floats too among the rubbish slapping up against the shore.
Both party's forget voters are not fools.
I stand by my predictions, think both leaders are intent more on their own survival than voters wishes.
But if you try, just read the headlines, sniff the air, both are facing a waterloo moment, both will not survive.
Peter Slipper affair is not likely to implode in this sitting, but it will, and if not some other event first will impacting the Abbott front bench.
Yet Gillard? a leader would prosper right now, just on what is out in the public record.
However she is no winner.
Time for my party to tell us is it private property? our do we the foot soldiers get a say.
Power brokers if they claim ownership let us know,why be a member if dictatorship is the end result?
Kim said 30 seats? bit optimistic big fella!

Dear Belly,

Could it be that both leaders are inadequate because the way of selecting leaders is not good? They are both selected by manoeuvering among a few parliamentarians with neither the party as a whole or the general public having any say in the matter.

Belly, the carbon and mining taxes are policies implemented in the right direction. But they sit so starkly at odds with Labor’s insistence on exerting ever-more pressure on our whole society, environment and financial wherewithal with their policy of extremely high population growth.

This also makes it forever harder for us to redistribute wealth in terms of health, education, pensions, disability allowances, etc.

I agree that Labor has lots of fundamentally good policies and desires.

Now, if they could just do what I so dearly want them to do and develop an overall sustainability strategy, they would DEFINITELY be able to develop all of these sorts of policies much more effectively.

The enormous demand to spend taxpayers money on duplicating services and infrastructure for ever more people would no longer be there which would mean that big money could be put into achieving real improvements for a stable population.

Please Belly, give this some hard consideration. It really is the answer to their woes… and it is what the country so desperately needs.

I’d love to see you come to fully support the idea of a Carr-Thomson Labor government which is net-zero-immigration and very strongly sustainability-oriented.

All of Labor’s good policies of the types that you mention would sit very comfortably within such a regime.

Dear Belly,

I find that despite all the criticisms I could not possibly
support the Liberal Party - especially under the current
leadership. We may be able to criticise the current Labor
leadership - however, as I've said in the past - at least
the PM has survived in a very toxic environment (difficult for
any leader - Liberal or Labor) and is getting on with
achieving some massive reforms.

If you take a look on OLO, the Shadow Minister
has started yet another thread - this time against unions.
No surprises there - the Libs have been ranting against
them for decades. And who's responsible for what's
happened with HSU - is still under investigation - including
the Liberal connection and whether Thomson was set up. The truth
will eventually come out. Yet, Shadow Minister is telling us how
the unions control Labor - and this from a man who supports a party
that's so strongly controilled by vested interests.

The message dressed up to attract us with simple slogans like
"The unions are corrupt," or "The unions have too much power,"
are smoke screens behind which lurk philosophies that are
both difficult to swallow and certain to cause this country a
good deal of harm, should they be taken seriously.

The conept of the Libs is the politics of money and power.
It's the ideology of greed, filled by an unbridled
commitment to individualism. It leaves no room for social
equity, compassion or the idea of an egalitarian society.

The Libs believe that neither government nor associations of
working people (unions) should be able to restrict the
proper application of capital (money) in the economy.
People, in their view, either sink or swim. And if they sink,
well that's too bad. Because according to them, welfare is
not good for business.

cont'd ...

Dear Belly,

The following link may be of interest:

http://www.themonthly.com.au/rising-influence-vested-interests-australia-001-cent-wayne-swan-4670

Dear Lexi,

I could not support the current Libs either, but I think at times the Libs have been more decent than Labor. Malcolm Fraser who was a Liberal Prime Minister is no longer even a member of the party. However, he has a record against racism and refugees which is more enlightened than either of the current major parties. Liberal Prime Minister Menzies did a lot to see that every Australian who could qualify would be able to get a tertiary education. The Labor Party in the past has been the author of the racist White Australia Party.

Parties change. The Republican party in the US is now in the grip of an alliance of supporters of laissez-faire capitalism and fundamentalist religion. However, the pary originated as an outgrowth of the Ripon Anti-Slavery Society, enacted the Sherman antitrust legislation (the first US legistion curbing the power of the corporations), started the national park system which conserved many areas of the US, enacted the first civil rights legislation and in the nineteenth century had as a leading the freethinking R. G. Ingersoll. The American Democrats used to be an alliance of big city political machines and southern racists. The latter are now mostly Republicans.

I think all we can do is support a party for what we think it will do after the next election.

Ludwig agree with it all but not population.
Both sides and Capitalism want and need growth, and population too.
As consumers and workers.
Lexi Davidf, I too must vote labor, but Lexi we must confront this, polls are spot on, many will not.
Both leaders suffer from the 24 hour news cycle, the need to say some thing any thing.
Both while educated and all that are unsuited for their rolls.
Abbott's still unloved, just less so than Gillard.
They squabble at the bottom of the fish tank to see who gets the low spot in the mud.
Labor must man up, it did the wrong thing in dumping Rudd.
And picked the wrong replacement.
It in a year we say is a reform one, still lets a few very few power brokers OWN THE ALP.
No member on the government side of the house believes a victory under Gillard is possible.
Yet rather than man up, admit a wrong, we face near death and a very long climb back.
BETRAYING every present and past builder of our party.
After such an event yet another split is quite possible.
PS Lexi not feeding trolls you will note my absence from some threads.

Dear Belly,

What they want and what they need are two different things. No species can increase indefinitely. That goes for humans also. Rudd in his vision of a great Australia denies that. For that and his bringing the Bible bashers with the chaplaincy program when he was in the Queensland government I could not support him against Gillard. Bad as she is she is better than Rudd.

Dear David F.,

I agree with you about the Liberal Party and how it has
changed. The Liberal Party that I once voted for is certainly
not the Liberal Party of today. It is not the party of
Menzies and Fraser. And it is one that as I stated earlier -
I could not possibly support.

Dear Belly,

What I would like to see the media do is pick apart both
Labor and the Coalition's policy platforms and let voters
decide which offers Australia the brightest future.

The policy debate needs to move to the front pages and if, as
Mr Abbott's supporters argue, the Coalition has robust
policies to answer Labor's - that's what people will
ultimately decide for themselves.

To this point we haven't had that political discourse.
It has often been a ludicrous slanging match with easy point
scoring. No one has been required to address policies in
detail in Parliament - when "Scrap the tax," or "stop the boats,"
followed by censure motions to shut down Question Time, seems to do just fine.

Lexi/Davidf at times, driven by my hope for my party I get a bit rough in replying to some.
Simple facts however agree with me.
I have spoken of events in 1975, from with in my then leftist views of politics.
Looking back, not now but long ago, I saw it nearly had to happen,
In fact still ask was it planned? did the big bloke craft it? last chance to survive? Labor in a dream world that in truth did not exist, drove in to a bog.
Some extremely poor behavior, by individuals, in a far different ALP than todays, ran our ship close enough to the rocks, to let Curr's actions deliver us to Liberals too impatient to get the same results at an election.
Remember my talking of news reporting being slanted even made up?
Consider this, headlines rightly report of the tragic/criminal/ hateful actions of the HSU mark them down as traitors to both movements.
But know such as their once head had more say in the ALP than TEN THOUSAND Lexis or Belly's, WHY?
Now another side, one I have seen before, how much have we seen about a QLD Ministers daughter, found drugged in another ministers office?
How much would we hear if it was a Labor minister?
Now look and research the unfortunate Peter Slipper affair.
An unpleasant subject.
But surely with a reporter refusing to table documents, so much more, the tabled evidence is strong.
Pyne for one has acted in a fashion that calls for INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING.
We will not see it.
Conservatives point at Labors web of support, but rarely of theirs, from those sitting in judgment refusing to judge to Abbott's backing crew propping him up.
We confront much danger but, without change we face defeat of historic proportions
Continued

Lexi if at times my reply to you has not baffled you I am surprised, know I respect you always,as I do my friendly opponent Davidf.
Here is the reason, *you had to be there* and I was*
23 years of Labor, split and unelectable, but hoping and dreaming this time!
Letter boxing in dads very old Ute Fridays last minute run to check the signs, and dream, dads words this time son.
Saturday nights, stony faced hurt!
A few days then dad would tell of the Comos hurting us, I would remain glad he did not know I was following the comrades path, briefly.
GW restored our hopes and dreams,we helped demolish them.
They Grey bodgie put a nice bloke Bill Hayden out of a job, and won!
How good was that? saw big Mal, still hated him then, cry that night.
Only Kevin Rudd can match popularity with Hawk.
Yet we dumped him.
Lexi those who dreampt of true change did not die, they are going to vote, against us.
Gillard can never win, if not against Abbott then against no one.
Labor must rebuild before the decimation, not after.
Unions MUST let the strings drop let the party stand under the control of its members.
To blindly follow some thing you love, over a cliff is not solidarity nore bravery it is insanity.
My party, after Gillard has every chance of a solid victory.
With her no chance.

Dear Belly,

You always speak from the heart and how can
anyone not value that. I respect your views,
and your experience and I shan't say any more
because I don't want to embarrass you.

David F., I admire greatly - and always read his
posts as I learn so much from them. Now I'm
going to soak in a nice bath and then watch one
of my favourites on TV - "Criminal Minds."

<< Ludwig agree with it all but not population. >>

Eh?

Belly you surprise me. I thought we had agreement on that issue. A few days ago you started a thread on global population growth. But you think it is ok for Australia to have rapid pop growth with no end in sight? That doesn’t make sense to me.

You can’t agree with me if you don’t agree about population. Population stabilisation is essential to the achievement of a sustainable society and to the fulfilment of Labor’s good policies, as I said in my last post.

<< Both sides and Capitalism want and need growth, and population too >>

We need meaningful growth, which is much better measured in per-capita terms than by GDP. We need growth that translates into improvements in our quality of life, rather than growth that by and large means more of the same for ever-more people, but with an overall slow decline in quality, which is exactly what we’ve got now.

The last thing we need is the same old never-ending growth spiral to just continue ad-nauseum, where we have ever-more people and therefore need ever-more economic growth just to give them the same standard of living as established residents, and we feel pressure to have high immigration in order to fill the jobs in order to provide that economic growth!

It's MADNESS! We've got to break this absurd spiral. And the obvious way to do it is to reduce immigration way down, in a series of steps over about ?5 years, and let the economy adjust accordingly.

<< Labor must man up, it did the wrong thing in dumping Rudd. >>

Oh dear! Such a drastic action as deposing the PM would not have happened unless there were very good reasons. I’d say that they did the right for sure, and that they chose the appropriate replacement in the deputy PM, who up to that point had been seen to perform pretty damn well.

Who else do you think they should have picked Belly?

Ludwig you have gone of a bit early.
I agree with you my once thread should prove that.
My words do not always say clearly what I meant them to.
We are in a minority, greed, blind greed, controls us.
Both party's,every builder rel estate agent, land developer,wants growth, in population to drive all growth.
I know that is stupid, but for the present, we are the minority.
I, often, focus on Labors factions and control from out side the party.
Liberals are no different.
As many or more factions/power brokers, and in their case very rich, in all but IQ, backers.
Here is my view of the recent race to the bottom of Liberals.
John Winston Howard,you may dislike him as much as I do it will change nothing, was unbeatable.
Until he let his hatred of all things union, and his victory handing him the upper house drive him from Liberal to extreme Conservative.
Even then it took an out standing Labor leader to get the job done.
Howard forgot his own understanding,and the words of his loved mentor Menzies.
His war on unions became a war on workers, in particular the kids of Liberal voting blue collar workers.
Within the then Liberal party lived true Liberals,Conservatives And as always extremist right.
Most of Howard's back bencher's had less say in the daily running of government, than Johns rather controlling wife.
Remember that tree planting thing? screamingly funny, but harmful too
continued

As I saw it and believe it to have been shown to be true Liberals with freedom to think, picked the wrong leader.
Nelson never ever was going to be other than a flop.
As discontent at the lost election demand for an instant coffee type win, never a chance, was required.
Liberals hit the big round panic button, it must be about ten feet around.
Dumping Turnbull, for insisting the party follow its policy's.
Abbott got the cap, who knows who put him there, other than a man intent on revenge, known as Luey the fly to some, morning Mrs Howard.
Waving the power brokers tool bag around,threats about seat pre selection, Liberals, at least in part, became Conservatives.
A love affair with American Republicanism left the need for policy construction.
All Abbott had to do was say no.
As America elects its current leader and Tea Party politics places a once proud nation closer to the edge?
Given the stated policy's Lib/Cons intend to take to the election?
One they cannot fail to win they risk/in fact face the truth, they have drifted just as far from their voters as Labor.
This rush to the bottom will force change on both party's.
We will be better for it, but rough seas ahead and Gillard and Abbott are unlikely to survive.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/latest/a/-/newshome/14438455/exclusive-leaked-polling-shows-alp-annihilation/
Lexi please read the link.
For those politicians, and many do, who read this site, read it too.
From my party,yes I have blood sweat and currently and the past tears invested.
Some of the ALP readers, politicians,have a plan!

*this is it! no true! they want to stick with Gillard.
And think Howard's pony Abbott will be so bad, we can see the next election given to us!*
IF I am wrong [and I am not] if Labors handful of dills is not to have a back bone transplant, a new Labor party will be built from the rubble,not me but it is a fact.

Be of stout heart, Belly. In Queensland Campbell Newman is doing his best to make Labor look like the less bad alternative.

While that is true David be it known that state has a history of liking tough men.
Even one who ran every word in to a meat mincer before uttering them.
Bill Shorten,a man I honestly regard as a HERO and a future Prime Minister, [also gets blame from me for dumping Rudd] went shopping!
If his average Aussie mind explosion, we all do it, was based on an insult to Julia he should note.
Bill stay away from pubs clubs service stations ALP branch meetings too!
An alternative exists.
Have once worked for you bloke I had a very good education in health and safety.
Thanks for that.
Get ear plugs, cover them with ear muffs, then just maybe, you will hear no one insult Ms Gillard
Also try a Walkman under all that, volume on full ALL THE TIME!
Take no risks! reality has a way of getting its message heard.

Sadly that was not funny.
As we near the re opening of Parliament, the seeming waste of meeting after meeting to, not remember who got boat refugees wrong.
But to fix it, end the deaths at sea, to stop the bleeding, amounts beyond our belief, spent on paying for this problem,
We aid the failure of our politicians, on both sides, to resolve the issue.
We unhappy and discontented with that other side, both of them.
Refuse to look at our own side.
And as flotsam and jetsom wrestle in the mud , neither sees the opportunity.
It begs to be seen, first day back in the house, the side that backs down, can show clearly some leadership.
Yet we must wait, until one or the other, hopefully both,are swept away by a beach cleaner/new leader.

A last thought, one week from Parliament re opening, and a new low [it does not appear we could achieve that] in our politics is about to take place.
Maybe this session, by by the end of the next for sure, this country will be shaken by the up heaval in that place.
As we,all of us grow increasingly weary with both sides, the simple fact each ,leaders for sure but party's propping each up too, have been helping the fall from grace.
Observers of politics, those who value public opinion, know it will take years to wipe out the bad taste we have over this constant squabbling.
The storm is needed, if only to remind our politicians we exist, it is our beach not theirs they have sullied.
Watch this space we live in interesting times.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-09/abbott-says-electricity-price-rise-reason-a-furphy/4187906
The cracks are appearing.
Tony is the man he has always been, but is no longer in control, unable to hide that man.
Not good news for Labor, the first side to produce its new leader, providing it is not the wrong one, will leap so far in front it may not be possible to catch them.
The storm approaches

Belly, look at every Federal and state leader over the last few years, both Lab and Lib. Every single one of them has received condemnation for being hopeless in their leadership, if not overall, then certainly regarding multiple significant decisions.

But not all of them are completely drongos. They are for the most part pretty highly intelligent and capable people.

So what does that tell us?

It’s the policies and the political direction that matters, not the leaders!

No amount of leadership shuffling is going to get us very far. It might make the critical difference at election time by changing balance of votes just enough to determine the outcome. But it is not going to help either party in the slightly longer term, if they just continue to bumble on with the same old bullsh!t policy platform.

I’ve expressed the sorts of policy changes that I think need to happen earlier in this thread.

They can happen most effectively with a Carr-Thomson Labor leadership. They could happen just as effectively within the Libs/Coalition. But the best leadership for that is not at all obvious, although Turnbull would have to be a much better bet than Abbott.