Good to see you disagree with 'Abbott the Liar' - didn't think it was in'ya, but there you go.

Despite the Coalition's claims, it is not an economy-wide tax - if it were, it would be far bigger - and it would be a tax on everybody - and unlike the GST, it isn't.

The tax is on emissions from electricity, gas and emissions-intensive industries. Treasury say it will cost households $10 a week, $5 in electricity and gas bills - if we do nothing.

The policy will work because it gives business and individuals an incentive to adopt more efficient and effective energy use practices. Moreover, it is aimed at a reduction in the rate of increase in greenhouse gas emissions.

Ok, we all know what Abbott & Co think about Treasury experts, any experts for that matter, but hey - Abbott is an expert on every thing, right?

'Abbott the Liar' says he will implement 'direct action', abandon the tax and subsidise big-polluters by having the taxpayers fund them.

Seems wiggle-waggles is calling Abbott a 'Liar' too now. Either that or SM has forgot what Abbott has said. Oh wait, maybe Abbott has forgot what Abbott has said. Oh wait, perhaps he 'lied'.

Thing is wiggle-waggles, if you indeed did have some significant input into a 'high-end' energy user (at least in an engineering or management role) you would look at ways to implement more efficient and effective energy use, in going forward of course.

Problem is, the intransigence of the 'business-as-usual-crowd' can't even look forward, let alone go forward (some call it progress) using both creative and technological innovative ideas. Hence the conservatism in going forward, eh?

Funny that,

The productivity commission described it as an economy wide tax first. Probably because it is a tax on electricity which is used economy wide.

The policy cannot succeed in its present form. For starters, unless the price exceeds $40/t Brown coal is still the cheapest form of generation, Black coal the next, gas the next, and way out are the renewables. What incentive is there to change? The projection is that even with the carbon tax, Emissions will increase by 8%.

As far as cost savings go, every industry I know has had an energy expert trying to improve efficiency. There is more incentive, but not enough to rebuild plant. To close them maybe, and with carbon tax free manufacturing overseas, none will re open.

In case you don't know my background, I am a power systems electrical engineer, with many years experience in building and running generation and associated manufacturing processes. I also have a BCom Majoring in Economics and an MBA. Please feel free to debate the technical details.

Here we go; ‘wiggle-waggles’ appealing to HIS authority.

Hang-a-mo, why is it that so called ‘sceptics’ say you can’t “appeal to authority” but they “appeal to their authority” ad nausea … LOL

Tell you what ‘flim-flam-man’, I’ll see your creds and raise you mine – open misère :)

“What incentive is there to change?”

As has been said;

Expert economists agree that price-based mechanisms (a carbon tax, subsidies or an emissions trading scheme) are a better way to address climate change than using Abbott’s ‘direct action’.

‘Abbott & the Co-a-liars’ believe in climate change now, or are they flip-flopping, or telling another porky, SM?

To bring you up to speed ‘shadow’, Australia’s introduction to a carbon price is a victory for the economists, for Treasury experts, for scientists and engineers, for most reasonable and forward thinking people and businesses, and sends a big message to the rest of the world … it is a huge reform by the Oz government.

SM, it culminates a process that began over a decade ago when Peter Costello, Alexander Downer and David Kemp took a joint submission to cabinet proposing a price on carbon emissions. John Howard rejected it at the time, but finally took it to the 2007 election as policy. Too late!

Your memory relapse is particularly disturbing, but so too is ‘Abbott-the-flip-flop-man’s.

Wiggle-waggles, it should NOT be a left/right issue (in most of the world, it isn't ... look at the UK, Germany, NZ, Sweden, the Netherlands, South Korea, etc.) and you will find Abbott's counterpart conservatives are just as committed to carbon pricing as the Oz government is.

Abbott & Co will destroy it, but future Australian governments (of both persuasions) will bring it back, because it is the cheapest and most most effective way to tackle global warming, which, if left unchecked, could do immense damage to our world.

You may ‘deny’ it all you like, and make stuff up, all you like – but that doesn’t make your prognostications right, SM.

Nuff said, see you on another thread.

Sorry Mr Wiggles,

All it shows is that you know squat about the carbon tax, or economics, you don't have the nous to do any analysis yourself, and can only parrot the labor line.

It doesn't matter how you squirm or wriggle, A tax on inputs is a bad tax especially if not balanced with competitors. A recent report said that the only emissions reductions will be from the direct action 20% renewable target, and bugger all from the carbon tax.

Another from a major bank says the carbon trading in Europe has achieved nothing in nearly a decade, so maybe you could tell me why it is economically more efficient to have the world's largest carbon tax.

Here's an article pertinent to this thread.

http://theconversation.edu.au/democracy-is-failing-the-planet-3832

Hi Poirot,

Sometimes I think what silences dissent is sheer exhaustion, going around in circles, talking an issue to death. And in your citation, Clive Hamilton doesn't help with his little backhanded swipe at democracy: 'democracy has defeated science'. Ever the crypto-totalitarian, our Clive: anybody who disagrees with him is a 'denier', and perhaps one of the masses who are too ignorant for our own good. If only the Good Society could be brought about somehow, even if it may mean that the square pegs, the 'deniers', might have to be 'extracted'....

As Marx might have said somewhere, all political stances reflect class positions and I am a bit uneasy about the growing influence (probably long after the event) of the professional class, those people who have never worked in anything where they got their hands dirty, but have gone from school to uni to bureaucratic ladder, and congregate (how's this for stereotyping ?) in Carlton and Leichhardt coffee shops, telling each other how the world should be, sans production of anything. i.e. no idea how the real world works. Denizens of Clive's World.

But they also have the right to express themselves, however disparagingly of the bogans and yobs out their in the unclean world, and of course those 'deniers'. They have as much right to do so as, say, the bogans and yobs. And of course, those 'deniers'.

:)