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The Forum > General Discussion > A Christian Lamb in a Den of Islamic Lions.

A Christian Lamb in a Den of Islamic Lions.

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RE ms Ripley
Any western woman who converts to a religion that wants to make women wear bedsheets in the street has got to have some strange ideas if you ask me. Thats the last thing I'd want for my daughters. I agree with David on that. I bet she wouldnt want to go and live in a really strict muslim county though. It's easy to live as a muslim in the West where you have female doctors and contraception and all the other life enhancing freedoms for women. Women under the Taliban in Aghanistan werent allowed to go to male Doctors and women werent allowed to work or go to school so there werent any female doctors. Too bad if you got sick.

Muslim women may say, but we're more moderate but that can change
very quickly when you put some of these strange Imans in charge of a country like Shiek Hilali.

Good on you David for stepping out of your comfort zone and going down for a look it'll give you more inspiration for next time. Its
probably wise just to check things out at first.

You may not be religious C J Morgan but you certainly have airy fairy utopians veiws about multiculturalism. World War 1 started in the multicultural Germany when the German kaiser was assasinated in the Serbian section. He sent the army in no doubt to do a bit of ethnic cleansing and the Serbs called on their old tribe in Russia for help and Russia came in on their side and it esculated from there because France felt threatened and so Britain came in.

Twenty years later World War two started in the same multicultural Germany only this time the Germans tried to etnically cleanse the Jews.
Now it threatens to blow up into World War 3 with the Arabs and Jews trying to ethnically clean each other out of Palestine.
Posted by sharkfin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 1:34:02 AM
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By the way Morgie could you send me some chocolates and a bottle of wine.

No? MEANIE!
Posted by sharkfin, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 2:02:11 AM
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BOAZ: Clearly, you've missed the point entirely. As an alumnus of the University of Melbourne, I will let you in on a little secret. The Parkville campus may appear to be a complete mess, but it's actually designed with one very clear objective: to keep the riff raff out, or if they do manage to get in, to make sure the experience is sufficiently painful and confusing that they never return. On the other hand, other "universities" have campuses that appear easy to navigate precisely because they have no standards, and will therefore accept any plaebian. :D
Posted by shorbe, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 2:26:25 AM
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sharkfin: What? Where did you learn history? World War 1 started in Sarajevo (in the province of Bosnia-Herzegovina), which was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (not the Second Reich/Germany). The assassinated (Franz Ferdinand) was not the German Kaiser (Wilhelm II), he was the nephew of the Austro-Hungarian Emperor (Franz Joseph).

The Austro-Hungarian Empire held Serbia (which was an independent nation) responsible, and issued an ultimatum, and then declared war. Russia, which had aspirations of pan-Slavism, declared war on the Austro-Hungarian Empire. This war had been building arguably ever since the three partitions of Poland in the late 18th century, but was averted by the rise of both Napoleon in the early 19th century and European nationalism in 1848 amongst other things. Because the Austro-Hungarian Empire was allied with Germany and Turkey (Triple Alliance, a.k.a. Central Powers), and Russia was allied with France and Britain, WW1 erupted. (Incidentally, Italy was originally in the Triple Alliance instead of the Ottoman Empire, but later fought against the Triple Alliance -- I believe it gained South Tyrol and Trieste from Austria-Hungary.) However, this had been on the cards for a while since the Triple Alliance was itself the product of all three nations fearing a very powerful and expansionistic Germany (which had only unified in 1871), and indeed, France had lost the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine to Germany in the Franco-Prussian War in 1871.

Basically, it was all about alliances, grievances and escalations. It wasn't about ethnic cleansing at all. It was about the fact that most of the major powers in Europe were multi-ethnic, often with very large minorities who wanted independence (some of whom gained it in the 19th century), and the fact that as a way of gaining leverage over one's opponents, the major powers often supported unrest within, or on the edges of, other major powers.

Multi-culturalism didn't exist in Imperial Europe -- to be an ethnic minority was to be oppressed in most ways, including even linguistic.

Okay, you can call me a war nerd now. :D
Posted by shorbe, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 2:36:26 AM
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CJ. "most of us" ? wow..thats projection bordering on 'astral'....

Its also CJ 'mind-o-centrism' projecting your own thoughts into others. Its all good.

Pericles, yes, I started it, and mainly to share an experience and some insights. There was no HUGE point in this thread, other than to recount that experience which could have the following impact:

-Encourage others to step out of their comfort zones for things they care about.
-Educate others about what is likely or not likely to happen should they do so.
-Inform others of the types of people and attitudes they may encounter in such activities.

Many of us talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. Unfortunately, when someone like myself takes a few faultering steps of 'the walk' they are still accused of multitudinous errings by the likes of blessed CJ and your good self. But walking the walk includes 'taking the flack' so it's ok.

The most encouraging aspect of the whole night, and which I probably didn't give sufficient space to, was my final 'struggle' to extricate myself out of Melbourne Uni to the tram stop (Shorbe..thanx for your illuminating comments mate) which I did with the aid of probably the most enlightened Muslim I've ever met.

He shared my own views (I'll duck for the verbal belt that comes from this) on National Identity, i.e. that none of us should call ourselves by our ethnicity first, rather, by our nationality.
He was reluctant to disclose his actual background for these reasons.
I'm sure, given time we could have had a most enriching conversation.

So, for those who may be interested in sharing their views with Muslims, my conclusion is you will encounter the best and the worst, -the clue is, avoid the worst as much as it depends on yourself.
Posted by BOAZ_David, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 7:05:22 AM
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I have no argument with this observation of yours, Boaz...

>>He shared my own views (I'll duck for the verbal belt that comes from this) on National Identity, i.e. that none of us should call ourselves by our ethnicity first, rather, by our nationality<<

I'm not sure this was ever in question, was it?

Even sharkfin acknowledges this.

>>It's easy to live as a muslim in the West where you have female doctors and contraception and all the other life enhancing freedoms for women. Women under the Taliban in Aghanistan werent allowed to go to male Doctors and women werent allowed to work or go to school so there werent any female doctors<<

I suspect that is why so many people from less enlightened countries want to come here. Irrespective of their religion, they prefer to come here and to become Australian.

However, I don't believe that they should leave their religion at the border - that is a personal matter, and not one in which the state should interfere. So long as they obey our laws, that should be the end of the matter.

But it is illuminating that you should consider the act of attending a meeting to have such an air of wonder about it.

>>[an] experience which could have the following impact:

-Encourage others to step out of their comfort zones for things they care about.
-Educate others about what is likely or not likely to happen should they do so.
-Inform others of the types of people and attitudes they may encounter in such activities.

Many of us talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.<<

It is stunning that you should think of attending a meeting at a well-known university to be out of your comfort zone.

But I feel obliged to point out that you actually did not walk the walk, did you, and missed the whole point of the exercise.

As a result, you are patently ill equipped to educate others on what might happen, or inform others of what they might encounter.

Ain't that right?
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 11 April 2007 7:48:21 AM
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