The Federal government has unveiled a historic agreement with mining magnate Gina Rinehart to import 1700 overseas workers to fill jobs in her iron ore project in Western Australia.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/breaking-news/ginas-army-overseas-workers-take-mining-jobs/story-e6frg90f-1226367200766

Australian Workers' Union head Paul Howes said it beggared belief that this announcement today was made in the wake of recent jobs losses at Qantas and the Norsk Hydro aluminium smelter in NSW.

He said:

"It's a massive kick in the guts to those 130,000 workers in the manufacturing industry who have lost their jobs,"

I share his concerns.

What the hell is Gillard doing? Why isn’t every effort being made to employ Australians first?

Then perhaps any unfillable vacancies can be filled with imported workers as a last resort?

Your thoughts...

Ok Ludwig, let me try and explain it so that even a botanist can
understand it :)

Howes is merely singing for his supper from his union songsheet.

I'll try and explain it in a few key points.

The Roy Hill mine involves a 10 billion$ investment, employing
8000 people to build. Investors need a guarantee that the key
skilled people will be available in order for the project to
go ahead.

What the agreement means is that the company is given a guarantee
that they can use 457 workers up to 1700, if there are no Australians
who want those jobs or have those skills. They also guarantee to spend
a certain amount of millions on training etc.

Fact is that many Australians simply don't want to go up into the
heat, dust and flies of the outback Pilbara, when they can live
in cushy Melbourne or Sydney.

If the project does not go ahead, zilch Australians will be
employed, unlike now where thousands still will.

Aww gee Yabs, this is just too hard for my vwery small botwanical bwane to gwapple wif! ( :>(

So what you are saying is that Oz workers will get every opportunity to work for the lovely Ms Rinehart first and that overseas workers will only be brought in as a very last resort!

Well…. I wonder how true that really is?

Australian Council of Trade Unions leader Dave Oliver said:

"We are calling on the prime minister to immediately intervene to ensure before any workers are being brought in under the 457 visa program that there has been appropriate measures in place to ensure that the local market has been tested,"

So it sounds as though it is more a case of overseas workers being brought in regardless and that Oz workers will be competing directly with them for jobs, if not strongly disadvantaged in the job market by this.

How do we find out how true or false this is?

*So it sounds as though it is more a case of overseas workers being brought in regardless and that Oz workers will be competing directly with them for jobs, if not strongly disadvantaged in the job market by this.*

No it does not, Ludwig. It just sounds impressive if union leaders
say things to impress workers who don't know any better. The details
are in the press and make perfect sense. Fact is, with so many
mining projects on the go at once, we just don't have enough
geologists, mining engineers and similar.

I'll put it another way for you. Would you invest in a new car,
if you did not know that you can buy petrol? Well nobody is going
to start spending 10 billion bucks, if they arn't guaranteed that the
labour will be available. In fact its alot less work to employ
locals, but they have to actually exist, not just pinched from mine
site B, which solves nothing and simply increases the problem.

If Australians were available, they would be employed. It is not for everyone. The miners advertise here for anyone with a heartbeat to apply. They are only robbing labour from manufactures.
This is the first project that is going to need masses of labour.
Something like 500 billion worth of mining and gas projects.
African and chinese, labor will fill the gap.

It is proposed that more Australians will be trained than the number of imported workers.
And that 1 in 5 will be imported.
Right now,even in Newcastle, jobs have to be filled by imported workers.
Almost every one of us understands the fly in fly out process.
WA/SA/NT, just do not have enought workers now.
Lets look at Pacific Islanders coming to pick fruit in the NT.
And let us consider those ex manufacturing workers.
Half at least middle aged, half of those women, what skills do they hold for mining?
How many want to live there.
Or fly in fly out.
A question, Rechtub and his like stand on the chest of workers now, if we drain every other industry, and we nearly do, what of the eastern states, who holds the jobs?
It is a fact we must as other country's do, import some workers.
I value Paul, a present day leader and future PM maybe, but this complex issue deserves more thought.

its so insane..she isnt any 'richest'
her kids family trust might be

but this is typical of someone
\who thinks all people are darkies..peons/serfs..minions..
she thinks like mr clive palmer..to run fiefdoms..whiole not paying a cent tax

her family trust[like that of most polititions
allows huge crimmal advantages..no tax is the easy way to get rich
maybe we should all get family trusts..hire foreign polititions..cause the ones we got or will soon get..arnt up to measure

they sell off and gave away our commonWEALTH treasure
and too blooming greedy to share the wealth arround
let alone do their other civic duties..and build their own infastructure

then no tax
yep its great

what do i think
i try not too..wouldnt spit on the lot of em

doiuble tax on family trusts
transaction tax on all money transactions
eat the rich

Dear Ludwig,

Yabby is right. And, the following link confirms it:

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news-no-aussie-job-will-go-overseas-insists-gillard-20120526-1zbeg.html

Ok Yabby and Lexi. I am pleased that you are confident that Australian workers will definitely get every opportunity first.
Yes, Gillard asserted this today. Good.

But crikey, you can’t blame me or Paul Howes or many other people for doubting this would be the case and demanding an absolute assurance that it is.

So can we move on to another aspect of this story; the massive size of the Roy Hill project and others in the pipeline.

What we really need is an assurance that the enormous wealth generated will be used wisely, to pay off our debts, to train Australia workers and greatly reduce the intake of ‘skilled’ immigrants, direct us towards sustainability, and NOT to just build ever-more infrastructure and services for ever-more people taking us further away from a sustainable future and with no gain for the average person.

If this wealth is not going to be used wisely in this sort of a manner, then what’s the point of undertaking these projects at all??

*you can’t blame me or Paul Howes*

Ludwig, I certainly don't blame you. For you are a clever botanist.
That does not mean that you are well informed or know much about
business. None of us can know everything and if I ever wanted to
know anything about botany, you would be the bloke to ask. But
I don't excuse Howes. At his level of involvement in both politics
and the trade union movement, he should be much better informed
and has no excuse on this one. Whilst I agree with Belly that
Shorten shows some good judgement, I disagree with him about Howe.

As to the benefits for Australia. We need to pay our bills if you
blokes want to keep leading cushy lifestyles. Note what is happening
in Greece, when that is no longer the case. All those workers are
paying taxes. They also buy bread, newspapers and all the rest,
employing ever more Australians. Companies pay royalties, pay
payroll tax, pay income tax and all the rest. That directly benefits
you and all other Australians.

No stronger supporter of the trade union movement lives than me.
And my support for Paul Howe's is as strong.
It however is my view, a new way of thinking is called for.
No need exists to shout out loud at every chance, to prove we care for workers.
Such action brings only those unable to think to our side.
America, Germany,in fact much of the developed world, use imported workers.
And too target get them in bad times as the problem.
457 visas, are not new, not all as a result of Howard, or for that matter big business failure to train.
We can not,even consider, bleeding the workforce from eastern states to do work some will NEVER be suited to.
Already great numbers wanting high paid mining jobs, spend far too much, on training that NEVER LEADS TO A JOB.
Some politicians shout, dance about, in a show for those they wish to impress.
And OUG your thoughts, that one of the most promising ministers in this Parliament is selling us out are uninformed.
This Ministers open contempt for the useless lady Gillard is seeing a get square knifing.
Ludwig, at least 457 holders return home, in some cases better off for life and do not increase our population.
Further benefit? some are rocking Gillards chair, fingers crossed!

May I make a simple suggestion, that being that we need to form a National Register, for all Australians who wish to take up these positions.

They register their interests, state their qualifications, FLUENT ENGLISH SHOULD BE A MUST then the government does their part by offering the training required.

Then, once trained, the worker enters into a binding contract where a portion of their wage gets garnished to pay their training skills.

And remember, once these skills are obtained, and their contracts fulfilled, they have these skills for life.

That has to be a better option than importing workers, many if whom won't even read write or speak our language.

Just imagine trying to warn a person of a potential hazard if they don't understand a word you are saying, let alone being unable to read the signs.

Also, some of this training must be in a remote location, as it is this remoteness that often kills the ambition, because many today just can't leave their social lives.

Dear Ludwig,

I watched the Insiders this morning and listened
to Greg Combet's answers to Barrie Cassidy's
questions.

Mr Combet pointed out - this is only
one project - a $10 billion dollar project - that
will employ thousands and thosands of people and it
is one of several in the pipeline that is very
important for the economy.

Combet made it quite
clear that the job of the government was to maintain
a strong economy, spread the benefits of the mining
boom, and to make sure that Australians have the
oportunity to participate in the work. He pointed out
that Australians shall be given the first crack at these
jobs. However, it is important to be aware that
at the end of the day - the government has to
makes sure the labour supply is there to bring these
projects off. Bringing in workers from overseas - has
apparently been going on for quite a few years - and is
nothing new. Of course - there are strict regulations now
in place regarding these overseas workers. Importantly,
that they receive Australian pay and conditions and
understand their rights.

The government does seem to know what it is doing - and
it shall be beneficial to our economy.

Simple seems as good a description as any for your idea Rechtub.
In another rant.thread you claim miners pay enough tax now.
Here you want government, at our cost to train ANY ONE FROM ANY PLACE who wants to work there.
Think the employers should have a say?
Adds could look interesting, wanted butcher, must be able to drive dump truck, pass safety ext, work 12 hour shifts and fly in fly our 12 days on 12 days off, leave the knives at home.
Ah do we import street sweepers for our city's?

What many Australians do not understand is that Australia's mineral wealth is a double edged sword. Mineral wealth does NOT mean automatic wealth for a nation and its people. It means incredible wealth for a very, very small number and great wages for a fraction of a nation's total workforce.
In the 70's the Netherlands discovered big natural gas reserves, with the result that the guilder soared and consequently, so did unemployment. The economists refer to that phenomenon as 'the Dutch disease'. Sounds familiar? Norway discovered oil reserves and were smart enough to learn from the mistakes made by the Netherlands and avoided going down the same path.
First, ask why Australia does not have the workforce for these jobs. It is because we spend very, very little money on actually educating our people for the kind of jobs that are required and neither do the mining companies. It is cheaper to import fully trained people from overseas. Our mineral wealth is not a new discovery, we've always known Australia is rich in minerals. Our employment rate is close to 6% and many, many people are underemployed.

*It is because we spend very, very little money on actually educating our people for the kind of jobs that are required and neither do the mining companies*

Hang on Ivonne, these people actually need to want to be educated.
You can't force kids to go to university or to do an apprenticeship,
if they cannot be bothered and can make good money being unskilled.

I had a female friend only just tell me yesterday, how poorly paid
that she was, earning 19 bucks an hour as a checkout chick. I didn't
even bother mentioning, that if she were in the US, she might be
on 8 bucks, being unskilled.

Australians have simply had it too good for too long, so many don't
need to bother with an education and learning skills. The system
will take care of them, either through various social security
payments or some of the world's highest wages on the planet for
unskilled people.No wonder that some many apprentices drop out

Nice try Belly, but you will have to do better than that to alter what I say.

Firstly, I did not say miners pay enough tax now, rather, I said they pay what the law says they should pay and, it is unfair for them to be accused of not paying their fair share as they are paying the same as any other company pays, 30cents in the dollar, plus royalties.

So I am not debating whether or not they pay enough tax, but that they should not be accused of being tax cheats, which is basically what the government and unions are saying.

The second point of distortion, on your part, is that I did not say that the tax payer should pay to train staff for mining, rather, that the miners have to pay back thier training fees, similar to a hex debt.

As I said, NICE TRY!

Anything to cause an argument, but you have picked on the wrong person as I don't bite mate! Especially to petty crap like that.

It's hard being I'll informed, but I manage.

The government is already down, and out, this will just make sure of it.

Rechtub your understanding is limited, very much so.
Your plea here and in your other thread, is in fact to Socialize the cost/ Privatize the profits.
I hope those Unions that are going to survive and thrive, as opposed to those bound to die.
Continue to progress with the times.
Mr Howe's is worth ten ,any ten, of the current Conservatives posing as Liberals.
But in my view wrong here.
Are many aware we will need in the next 5 years about 100.000 in these industry's?
Or that that figure is laughably understated?
Do we care to under stand just how many such workers are in other country's, and help those country's prosper?
WE CAN NOT SUPPLY them!-yet!
About 15% to 20% will need to come from over seas.
My fellow travelers ALP voters, must confront the lie, Gillard knew she knows this morning,right or wrong class warfare on Gina is stupid!
Class warfare is the private property of Liberals and their Pup the Nationals, our roll is defense not attack in the silly game.
Last 4.5 percent includes some truly useless never want to work folk, unskilled and not looking for skills , and folk wanting a job at their front door.
Reality time folks.

Yabby, do you actually know anyone who works in the mining industry or wants to work in the mining industry?
You sound very much like you don't.
Try and get a job in the mines. Just as a challenge that even YOU can do it. Or at least speak with a person who is trying to just that and has or wants to do a training course just to be able to apply.
And comparing Australian wages with wages in the USA is like comparing apples to oranges to use a cliche. If you think it is so great in the USA why not move there?

Yvonne, as it happens where I live is near a town where a great many
of the workers are fly in fly out workers in the mining industry.
Others even drive to Australia's largest goldmine, in Boddington,
WA. My nephew works in the mining industry. The publican's wife
even flies in and flies out to the North, to clean accomodation
up there.

The largest shortage that we have is engineers, thousands of them.
People aren't going to learn engineering or gain their electrician's
ticket or diesel mechanic ticket, by doing a short course.

The comparison with the USA is a good one. It shows why so many
of our youth think that they don't need to bother with a qualification,
if their mates are dragging in big dollars without one.

Yabby,

Real unemployment is far greater than the official figure; how much greater depends on your definition. Roy Morgan Research says it is double the official figure, while the Australia Institute says that the official figure only counts about a third of the unemployed, that real unemployment is 14.3%, and 20.5% if you include underemployed people who want more hours. See my links in Rehctub's thread below this one. Australia has the lowest rate of unemployment benefits in the OECD, and even very conservative business groups and economists such as Judith Sloan have called on the Gillard government to raise them. It simply isn't credible that people would rather live on a dole that was far below the poverty line than take a well paid mining job. More likely, as Rehctub said on his thread, you can't get a job without experience, and you can't get experience without a job. Apprenticeships for the skilled trades aren't exactly easy to get. While mining engineers and the like are very well paid, there are issues of job security. From my own student days, I recall geologists who were trying to retrain as science teachers, as the mining industry was in a downturn.

While there no doubt is a place for some foreign temporary workers, especially highly skilled professionals, and Gina Rinehart may be doing the right thing by offering a lot of training places, there is no question that 457 visas are abused by employers wanting cheap labour.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/small-business/abuses-of-457-scheme-multiplying/story-e6frg9hf-1111118197338

No matter how many rights the visa holders have on paper, they are useless if the foreign workers don't know about them, or are too scared or vulnerable to invoke them, especially if they want sponsorship for permanent residency. The government also has to be willing to enforce the law.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/employers-avoid-fines-despite-visa-abuse-sanctions-20110725-1hx98.html

There are similar issues with H1B visas for temporary foreign workers in the US. The employers love them because they can pay less than the prevailing wages, and the workers are indentured. There is even an immigration law firm that runs seminars on how to avoid hiring well qualified US workers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

Yabby, you touch on the other problem, that being that our unskilled, or, low skilled, for the benefit of a few, are simply over paid in this country.

Why on earth will a kid tie themselves into an apprenticeship at low wages, when their mates get much higher wages without the training, without the theory, without the threat of failure.

The fist step to addressing our skill shortage is to introduce work for the dole. No work, no pay, period! Even those with disabilities (not major) can answer a phone, or use a computer.

You must remove the attraction of doing nothing before you can address these issues.

Then, when you lower the unskilled wage, the dole doesn't have such an appeal.

Of cause the knives will be out for that commen, but people must face reality, or accept the fact that Australians may well become unemployable to some extent.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/howes-crying-wolf-on-foreign-workers-20120528-1ze6y.html

Belly, much as you sing the praises of Paul Howe, clearly many don't agree with you.

Divergence, the way I understand it, the way that we calculate
unemployment is the way it is done internationally, so that comparisons are valid. I am sure that many would like more hours,
but many are also quite happy to just work part time, enough to get
by. What they actually say when being interviewed is another story.

I am sure that some 457 employers abuse the system. Tell me a law
which is not abused by some. It is up to Govt to enforce laws, or
they are clearly not going to be much value.

One of the problem that we have is that most people seem unwilling to
move to where the jobs are. In WA the situation is pretty hopeless
right now. I spoke to a bloke who runs a farm supplies business the
other day. They have 6 branches and five of them have vacancies that
they cannot fill. Working in a farm supply store is hardly highly
skilled. If things are not so flash in Sydney or Melbourne, people
are going to have to look beyond their backyards for a job or
they will have to come from elsewhere

Rechtub actually you at times throw my words back at me.
I first pointed out workers are, right now rejecting east coast jobs to go west.
Yabby throws Howe's at me, not sure what it has to do with the facts.
This project would not go ahead without the 457 visas.
This is only the start , actually hundreds of thousands of workers will be needed.
And AUSTRALIA will never be able to fill all those jobs!
Class warfare is a child from stupid unfit parentage.
Hancock father of Gina earned every cent he ever made, projects such as this need a Gina, she is no different than a German or Chinese project owner.
Ludwig and I share the view this country can not support endless population growth.
But note as the workers shortages grow,and they will, we may see full time migration, to new towns built for these mines and 457 at least is another way.

Some want to flog the ALP for doing the right thing.

Let me explain myself.
Class warfare, reintroduced by an aging Wayne Swan and Gillard, is a failure.
We can if that is what we wish, insult Gina and the mining millionaires.
But class warfare is dead, as dead as Gillards chances of EVER leading Labor out of the wilderness her imposition on the country has lead us.
And as dead as the brain movements in the heads of those who think standing stunned in the headlights telling us she is the only option is an answer.
At sometime in the future, under Conservative government, those protesting this action, will see it done numbers much bigger.

*And as dead as the brain movements in the heads of those who think standing stunned in the headlights telling us she is the only option is an answer*

Belly, its Mr Howe who is busy raising class warfare yet again.
Cameron is another one. In fact many union leaders are good at it.

As to the PM, you can't keep changing them like your underwear, it
leads to instability. Stick to what you have for now. Rudd is a bit
like dating a past girlfriend, all the old crap resurfaces once a
certain amount of water has flown under the bridge. You can't
make it go upstream

Labor MP Kelvin Thomson spoke on Gina’s 1700 imported workers this morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPL31VlSGXo&feature=youtu.be

He does not support enterprise migration agreements. He says that they are a confession of failure in regard to our permanent migrant worker program. This program which has been multiplied by more than five times since the mid 90s is supposed to be meeting the needs of the mining boom. But it is not doing that.

He's going against his own party here. I think he is spot-on with all his comments in this interview.

Yabby at least I know the bloke, I too know of his book, the part he played in dumping Rudd.
I know along with big Bill Ludwig he supports her still yet I know too he is as I say a man of the future.
One thing you can be sure of, with inflation unemployment under 5% the economy in fine condition, Labors stocks have never been lower.
Up 2% over night, Gillard preferred PM!
But 60% unhappy with the job BOTH LEADERS are doing.
We will not in our life time see Labor this low again.
Bill Shorten will lead, soon or never,Howe's has time,I want him to remain head of my union, to complete a much needed reform, but he in time will add to our talent.
Yabby are you trying to divert the thread, do you not agree the east coast can not forever power the workforce in the three mining states, leave QLD its here.
Ludwig, here are the facts, full time migration will climb to fill such positions, it must.
We in time will look back at 457 visas with fond memory's as Islands of migration form instead.
Our mining boom is here and growing faster than our population can sustain.

Chris Sutherland, a labour recruiter for the big resource companies, was interviewed on Radio National on the ABC this morning. He said that his firm was given the job of filling 80 positions at Fortescue Metals. There were more than 3,000 applications for the jobs from those lazy Australians who don't want to move from the Southest. They cut this down to a short list of 300 applicants, and the 80 positions were filled. Some job specific training was required, but Fortescue was willing to provide it. Sutherland reckons that there is a lot of potential to provide Australian workers, but some advance planning is needed. He was followed by a unionist who said that there were thousands and thousands of kids in Victoria who would give their left leg for an apprenticeship.

The beauty of Rehctub's idea of HECS-type funding of training followed by work experience in actual mines is that we can test whether the employers have a genuine problem or whether they simply want cheap, compliant labour, while the social and welfare costs of the excluded Australian workers and ultimately, the infrastructure costs of the foreign workers are thrown onto the community as a whole. (As the saying goes, there is nothing so permanent as a temporary worker.) No willingness to provide work experience or to hire qualified Australians, no visas.

In the job as a union official, if you are any good at it, you get to know a great number of personnel managers.
Indeed if you are considered even half good/balanced you will be invited to many coffee breaks and told in detail how employees are selected.
Some times the person opposite you is ex union official, such is life.
Few want to understand here, those folk, acting on behalf of their company, want a say in who THEY SELECT for the jobs.
Many who want the job ,big income, are unsuited to them.
In looking for workers who can hack it, live in isolation with others, fly in fly out, be there every time the plane leaves.
Not every one is the right stuff.
Get used to this debate.
It is but a seed the first of many.
Soon, if some one says no! if governments, mine, stand on sand hills trying to look good but uninformed STOP such a project!
One South Australian project demands ten thousand folk! a new town!
And has for 8 years been using 457 visas.
Storm in a tea cup, trying to inflate an issue few understand, we do not have enough workers to do this work.

Belly,

You would expect someone like Chris Sutherland who makes his living recruiting labour to understand the market.

This is from an opionion piece by Labor MP Kelvin Thomson, who ought to be our PM, as some of the commenters have said:

"A survey last year in Melbourne reported four out of five skilled migrants as unemployed or underemployed. The example was given of a young women with an engineering degree and seven years' industry experience, and who spoke advanced English, who had applied for 17 engineering jobs without getting an interview. She was working as an office cleaner.

Furthermore, while it is true that skilled shortages exist in some areas, I am concerned that they are being exaggerated by employers seeking to use migrant workers to undermine local wages and conditions and avoid the cost of investing in apprenticeships.

Unions have reported to me cases of the abuse of temporary migrant workers who are on sub-class 457 Visas, and have also reported cases of overseas workers being paid only 50 per cent to 60 per cent of the rates of pay of Australian workers."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/the-problem-with-enterprise-migration-agreements-20120529-1zg1v.html#ixzz1wJSgzyGK

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/the-problem-with-enterprise-migration-agreements-20120529-1zg1v.html#ixzz1wJHdHd2K

Dear Belly,

The following link gives us another viewpoint
that's not available in the tabloid press:

http://newmatilda.com/2012/05/29/we-need-rinehart-1700

cont'd ...

My apologies. I made a mistake citing the link.
Here it is again:

http://newmatilda.com/2012/05/29/we-need-rineharts-1700

*A survey last year in Melbourne reported four out of five skilled migrants as unemployed or underemployed*

Divergence, the highlight there is Melbourne. How many of these
people came here as students and then gained their visas through
that common loophole? As hairdressers perhaps and similar?

There was an interesting discussion this morning on WA radio. It
seems that despite the WA boom, Eastern States people mostly don't
want to leave their families to move to WA. According to the person
being interviewed, last year it was around 7000 who did, half being
family, so that is 3500 actual workers. Given the mining development
going on, that is enough for around half of one mining construction
site.

Fortesque may well be finding unskilled people to train, but that
is only a part of the equasion. It still needs trainers, people with
experience and qualifications to run the mines, do the engineering
work etc. One female engineer who can't find work in Melbourne does
not mean that there are thousands of engineers prepared to go the
heat, dust and flies of the Pilbara

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/13811688/cash-incentive-fails-to-bring-job-snobs-west/

Another story in today's West Australian, Divergence. Only 36 people
accepted up to 9000$ to move to the West for a job.

Personally of course I am quite happy not be to invaded by you
foreigners :) But the point remains, if the rest of Australia wants
the money to keep the country afloat, its going to need people to
build and operate these new mines.

Thanks Lexi.
Divergence not name dropping, I an ex trade union official, after many years in construction government and private, I have some understanding.
The debate, NATIONALLY is dragging its b*m on the ground.
Talking of how hard it is to get in to mining, inferring that low wages are being paid to FOREIGNERS! taking our jobs.
JUNK!
Unhappy as I am and was about it, a black list hidden but in fact exists between these firms.
Some sacked for such as drug use drunkenness at work, inflicting floggings on work mates, mental health issues, a host of welfounded reasons, see them never again get a chance in such jobs.
Others, sacked for personality problems with some bad boss, end up on that list, a list no union official can see/prove exists or fight.
In 1970 firms first started profiling workers before employing them.
Some of those questions intruded on privacy, not answering them finished your chances.
Do we want to admit some many, a whole lot are unsuited to this work.
Unions do there best work in things they have a right to be involved in, no right to tell a boss who to employ exists.
Yet word of mouth worker to boss union to boss, boss requesting both, sees jobs given.
A nothing story here it is just the start, a needed start to get these things up and away, Divergence, you are aware these sites are more non union than union?

Belly,

Let's assume that you and Yabby are correct, that Gina Rinehart et al. are all on the up and up, and hiring foreigners for only the noblest of motives, not to get cheap labour, avoid training apprentices, or get people who will put up with substandard working conditions. Furthermore, they offer opportunities for training and employment to every Australian who wants them and is suited to the work.

I am concerned that what will happen is this: The 457 visa holders reach the end of their term, and the mining companies sponsor them for permanent residency. (Why not? It is easier than breaking in new people if these ones go home.) Approximately half of 457 visa holders end up getting permanent residency right now. Eventually, the mining boom will end, as such things always do, and the mining companies will cut their foreign employees loose and wash their hands of them.

Living costs are high and jobs will be short in WA, so great numbers of them will then cross the Nullarbor to Sydney and Melbourne, where half of skilled migrants currently end up. They will swell the numbers of those 4 out of 5 skilled migrants who are unemployed or underemployed in Melbourne, and the locals and earlier migrants will face more and more competition for jobs, housing, public services, and amenities. Money to fix the infrastructure backlog will have to be diverted to meet the needs of more and more people, so nothing will be done about deathtrap roads, long waiting lists in hospitals, etc. Open space will become scarcer as more and more land is eaten up by development, the koala will be declared endangered in more places as they lose their habitat to developers, water will be more expensive, etc., etc. I suspect that most people there would be better off without the current mining boom and without the extra people.

(cont'd)

(cont'd)

The days when mass migration was in the interests of the whole population are well and truly past. Even the government's own Productivity Commission admits it, as in the 2006 report into immigration.

"Most of the economic benefits associated with an increase in skilled migration accrues to the immigrants themselves. For existing residents, capital owners receive additional income, with owners of capital in those sectors experiencing the largest output gains enjoying the largest gains in capital income. On the other hand, the real average annual incomes of existing resident workers grows more slowly than in the base-case, as additional immigrants place downward pressure on real wages. The economic impact of skilled migration is small when compared with other drivers of productivity and income per capita." (p. 154)

http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/9438/migrationandpopulation.pdf

This was reaffirmed in the Productivity Commission's latest annual report and is also consistent with a number of reports from around the world, such as the 1997 Academy of Sciences report in the US and the 2008 House of Lords report in the UK.

*I am concerned that what will happen is this: The 457 visa holders reach the end of their term, and the mining companies sponsor them for permanent residency*

Divergence, that depends purely on Govt policy. Guest worker schemes
make perfect sense in economies where there is a huge variation in
demand for labour. Switzerland used to employ around a million
Italians a year, but they would all go home again, with their
bulging bank accounts.

Right now I'd guess that there are far more students who study here
and then apply for permanent residency, causing problems in our
economy, then 457 workers. Fact is Aussies simply don't want to
do some jobs.

Fact is too, that city Australians need farming and mining to keep
the economic wheels on the cart as the rest of Australia is largely
uncompetitive in a global sense. So without those two industries you
would be living in a banana republic. Those two industries cannot
function without labour and neither of them is in the cushy city,
but in the country, where most Australians simply don't want to live.

Divergence do I see xenophobia in those posts?
Tell me, if we said no , and if the project never took place, would you feel all warm and comfy?
And do you understand how many 457s have been used in the last ten years? all over Australia?
Are you aware this hit the headlines because it is an AGREEMENT? ensuring wages and much more?

How do you get xenophobia out of what I said, Belly? Where exactly did I say anything about the foreigners being bad people? So long as Australians, especially local Aboriginal people, get a fair chance at those jobs before they are offered to foreigners, and the guest workers aren't exploited and eventually go home, I don't have a problem. What I am concerned about is unending population growth, as I believe that it is harmful to the environment, promotes inequality, reduces our security in what is likely to become a very dangerous world, and is damaging to the quality of life of ordinary people, without any compensating economic benefits. My concern is that the 457 visas are being used as a back door for permanent residency. I would be just as concerned if the high population growth were coming from big Australian families.

It is likely that ordinary Australians have been hurt a lot more by the doubling or tripling of house prices that has occurred (mostly) as a result of population growth than they have personally benefited from the mining boom. Do you dispute this?

Crikey, how much mining do we want?

Some people here seem to think that for this project to not proceed immediately would be disastrous. Well, haven’t we got enough mining happening? Shouldn’t we actually try and slow down the boom a bit, rather than facilitate a continuous increase in the scale of mining?

We are not upholding a constant rate of mining here, with Roy Hill and various other projects we are talking about a massive escalation.

Not only should we absolutely not be considering Enterprise Migration Agreements, we should be considerably lowering the immigration rate, and then adjusting the nature of our immigration intake to cater for the needs of some new projects, if it doesn’t already.

Currently, it is all about maximising our export income from mining, to provide a decent and improving quality of life for Australian citizens. Well, I hope that’s what it’s about!

But it would make more sense to uphold a high level of mining activity, no bigger than it now is and probably a bit smaller, while at the same time, reducing immigration right down to near net zero.

Demand and supply, that’s the bottom line. An ever-bigger supply of export income is not going to get us ahead if we have an ever-bigger and rapidly expanding demand for a high and improving quality of life at the same time.

If we stabilise the demand, then we just might have some chance of both getting some real benefits out of the mining boom and drawing it out for a decade or two longer, thus really putting this country on the right track towards a high …. and sustainable … quality of life.

I share all of Divergence’s concerns.

each of us has every right to the opinions they hold, even my combative Friend SM and Paul 1405.
I still think Divergence is far from todays reality's, and that I saw fear of foreigners in his/her post.
Ludwig, this much is certain.
If we try to limit the mining,artificially control out puts, we declare economic war on our customers free trade is to be disregarded.
Our shared concerns population are clearly of little interest to ANY POLITICAL party right now.
I think in a country no longer banking on its farming income, in fact in big trouble with out mining, we should never consider murdering it.
I want a fairer distribution of this country's mining assets, but not by feeding a lie that Gina has received other than the only possible out come, the ability to go a head with this project.
Divergence, are you a green supporter?

<< If we try to limit the mining,artificially control out puts, we declare economic war on our customers free trade is to be disregarded. >>

Belly, how do we not ‘artificially’ control outputs?

The only way that we could possibly not do this is to allow completely open slather on the expansion of mining.... which is actually not far from the current situation!

The level of mining activity needs to be tightly controlled. This is a fundamental role of government, isn’t it?

How would limiting the level of mining, to about the level we are now at, declare economic war on our customers?

Surely free trade doesn’t compel us to flog off our resources as rapidly as the demand alone would dictate? Doesn’t sound very free if this is the case!

how hard could it be to force
each foreigner..imported worker..to have an apprentice[native]

with a govt on the job training subsidy
it must be seen to be fair..anywhere there is big unemployment
locals getting jobs must be recognised as fair practice

having thieves fly in
fly out[taking your riches..[poluting your waters
destroying your roads and communities..thats gotta be priced in

guile lards comments re it belonging to all
means we all own it..[regardless of who mined it]
so a tax on the product..to retore to the first people the pristeen they lost..is only fair

its these un austrailians
abusing a system..available to the common man
but now so complicated..as to be subverting a common privledge into a elite right..[for peppercorn rent]its insane..some privlegde rich twerp

taking the common wealth
destroying the common weal
killing of native culture/practice

to make fly-in crones drones and known unknowns
its our WEALTH*..our health..taken by stealth..for tokenism by elitist tribalism[divide and con queer]

its like all them exploiter's..
getting both THEIR SHARE
and ours as well

insider knowledge or acces for lobby
thats treason...

Belly,

My opinion is essentially that of the 1994 Australian Academy of Sciences Report, which recommended stabilisation at a population of 23 million as a safe upper linit before the growth starts to cause serious problems for the environment and people's quality of life.

\\http://www.science.org.au/events/sats/sats1994/Population2040-section8.pdf

Many of the same concerns are raised in more detail in the 2010 Immigration Department report on the Long Term Physical Implications of Net Overseas Migration. The executive summary has the main points.

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/research/_pdf/physical-implications-migration-summary.pdf

Am I out of touch with reality or are you?

I don't support the Greens. They pussyfoot on population and appear more interested in fashionable leftist causes than in the environment. I do support the Stable Population Party of Australia, which is trying to give us a voice on this issue, despite the bipartisan collusion of the major parties.

Ludwig, your problem is one of the law of unintended consequences.

The reality is that Australia is part of the global economy and that
we still have our collective arse full of debt. Our current account
is still running at a deficit of around 3%, despite record minerals
prices.

Like your credit card, the country has to pay its bills or we'll land
up like Greece. The first thing with your idea, is that foreign
lenders would take a look at your limits and realise that they might
have trouble getting their money out. Our banks still rely on overseas markets for half their funding. Given the higher risk,
lenders would charge more. 10 year Govt bonds in Greece are currently
at just over 29%, as nobody trusts them. So what would happen to
Australians with a mortgage, if our interest rates shot up to 20%?

Next our banks would fold, due to customers unable to pay. etc.

So your idea might sound noble, but the consequences would be a disaster.So it's as if you have a botanist's view of economics :)
The devil is always in the details, as you would know from botany.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/panic-on-the-house-floor-20120601-1zn4x.html
I found the link a good read.
I too found it is about my own opinion.
Take Gina out of it,her dads once attitude to Labor,even us wise men from the east.
Look at the national interests,and the reason CONSTRUCTION,needs imported workers, not enought time or workers.
Look at the end results,,over six thousand jobs for Australia.
I give credence to that part of the link.
Second? who of us not blinded by one sided biased views would not be pleased to have others lead both party's.
And those,such as me, who know who they will vote for, but unlike me fail to see the faults on their leadership team?
With such attitudes we can not progress,we may, hopefully not, be forever cursed by our own wish for victory only,to be lead by the wrong folk.

<< Our current account is still running at a deficit of around 3%, despite record minerals prices. >>

Yabby, you paint an utterly dismal picture of Australia being hooked into maximised expansionism with no way of getting out of it.

What on earth is going on here??

How can this be? We have absolutely massive mining activity and hence export income, and we are still racking up the debt.

So if we were to expand mining operations as far as we could we be able to turn the tables and start paying off the debt at a considerable rate?

How does our record-high immigration rate factor into this?

How would higher taxes / levies / royalties help?

I will maintain that the size and rate of increase in the domestic demand for all manner of goods and services has got everything to do with our national account balance and that quite apart from environmental and sustainability reasons, it is simply insane for this level of immigration to continue.

If expansion of the mining industry, or of any economic sector, requires large-scale foreign labour, then it becomes just self-defeating!

So in order for us to balance the budget, we might need a big increase in mining activity for a while. But not isolation. We need to stop increasing demand, we need a better return from our primary resources and we need a much better overall fiscal management regime.

*What on earth is going on here??*

Ludwig, our economy simply reflects the reality of how we live.
We are the world's biggest gamblers who live in the world's biggest
houses, paying ourselves some of the world's highest wages, on the
world's cushiest benefits. So Australians are living it up,
travelling more then ever before, mostly bankrolled by globally
efficient mining and farming sectors. Sydney and Melbourne largely
exist to administer themselves and build more houses for ever more
migrants. Meantime farming and mining are bled, as they don't have
the votes, cities do as they have the numbers.

So now Aussies don't even want to work in those far away industries
and if no goose is laying golden eggs, or not enough of them,
city Australia is basically stuffed.

The mining projects now being built, will ensure the flow of money
to keep the good times rolling, so that we can keep wasting money
as we have in the past.Billions for foreign aid, billions for social
welfare, billions for boat people, billions for administration and
paying our public servants up to 800 Grand and all the rest. Where
did you think that all this money came from?

Ok Yabby, but in supporting EMAs and the large-scale expansion of mining, aren’t you just condoning all of this highly irresponsible behaviour?

Wouldn’t be a much better idea to say no to any further mining expansion, given the level of mining activity that we now have, and start seriously lobbying for some of the other factors to be improved?

Obviously I think that our immigration intake is the biggest single factor, and the easiest one to address, but as you say, there are numerous other things.

Now, if we were to get all of these factors in order, or considerably improved, I might be able to condone an expansion in mining activity, because it would then actually create real wealth, that could pay off our debts, lead to real improvements in infrastructure and services and set us up with a sustainable society.

<< The mining projects now being built, will ensure the flow of money to keep the good times rolling, so that we can keep wasting money… >>

Yes!! It is crazy beyond belief to just be blithely facilitating the same old continuous-expansionist and enormously fiscally inefficient paradigm!

We are GROSSLY misusing our amazing mineral wealth! Really, we are rushing faster and faster towards the cliff!!

While it may be politically untenable for us change this in any significant manner, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be trying. Good intelligent knowledgeable people like you should not just be going along with it or advocating things that will support this paradigm.

*Wouldn’t be a much better idea to say no to any further mining expansion, given the level of mining activity that we now have, and start seriously lobbying for some of the other factors to be improved?*

Oh lobby by all means Ludwig, but I am realist enough to doubt your
chances. When the Canberra fatcats agree that 400 Grand a year is
still a good salary, when the rest of Australia agrees that they
should moderate their lifestyle, I will take note.

I just happen to live in a place where I cannot even get to see
an Australian doctor, as its more important to divert resources to
other areas, like cities. So any crunch will be felt by us
people first, the fatcats will be last to change their ways.

Ignoring population issues for a moment Ludwig, there is an essential contradiction in your assessment of the country's financial situation.

>>We are GROSSLY misusing our amazing mineral wealth!<<

And the point about that "amazing mineral wealth" is that it has precisely no value whatsoever while it remains in the ground. It might as well not exist at all, if we don't dig it up.

And because we do not have a lazy $200 billion or so lying around that is needed to perform this feat, we need to... <gasp> Borrow It. Or share the equity around with... <shudder> Foreign Investment.

It is ok for you. So long as there are flowers to pick, you'll be fine. But think about the rest of us - particularly us do-nothing layabouts in the Eastern States (that was for Yabby) - who kinda like the lifestyle we have, and would prefer not to go back to subsistence farming to stay alive.

*particularly us do-nothing layabouts in the Eastern States*

Ah Pericles, I of course never claimed that you do nothing. You
do in fact trade ever increasingly expensive houses amongst each
other and pay yourselves ever larger salaries, whilst you tolerate
the odd tourist. My point is that Sydney and Melbourne don't
actually do much that competes with the rest of the world, so your
lifestyle essentially mostly depends on screwing the efficient
parts of our economy, such as farming and mining.You have the
population to do it, so its all about tyranny by the majority

The Sydney Morning Herald reported a poll today that asked their readers whether they would be prepared to move to WA if they were out of work. 32.6% said yes, and another 30% said it would depend on the salary. The rest said no. Getting to WA is expensive, however, and I somehow doubt that many would in fact be willing to go without a firm job offer. Perhaps the mining companies should be recruiting in the East where most of the people are, once they have done the best they can to hire people who already live in WA. They might consider offering trial periods before people go back to uproot themselves and their families. As Belly has said, this sort of work is not for everyone.

While there no doubt are people who are work-shy to the bone, I just can't believe that there are overwhelming numbers of them. Look at the comments after the video I linked to earlier in the thread. The whole point of the video was to help employers to hire foreigners in preference to keen, well qualified US citizens and permanent residents, but there were still the usual comments about lazy Americans who don't want to take these jobs. It is curious that the laziness seems contagious and spreads to foreigners as well, just as soon as they acquire US citizenship papers or even permanent residence. I recall an Indian computer scientist who demonstrated this to a Congressional committee by calling up about a job in front of them, a job for which she was eminently well qualified. As soon as she told the recruiter that she was a naturalised US citizen, she was told that the job was only for H1B visa holders, even though the employers were supposedly only allowed to hire them if they couldn't get qualified US workers.

US workers used to line up for meat packing (abattoir) jobs. The workers were all unionised, and well trained and paid. Safety and hygiene standards were excellent. Now the work is done by illegal aliens under horrifically dangerous conditions.

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc0603/article_541.shtml

hose with memories
might join the dots
clive was going to sue anna
anna goes with clive to china..and sign's a 65 billion mine

now blind freddy could see that had anna gone by herself
she could have signed..instead of clive
and we al could share any 'extra'

you know that extra..those who remove them worthless assets
get to be the richest man/woman[or top ten or whatever]

yet its not 'them' individually that is the richest
but things like clives shelf compasnies..or gina's [tax minimising/trust]

when we hads death duties
at least a percentage of tax came back
but now trusts own trusts..corperations own corperations

less than 20 run most of them
trhing is let clive sell clive
and govt serve the intrests of the people
if its not about sharing the common wealth..then go polute others assets

we need a cleanout
if your a global citisen..go live there
if your an aussie..pay tax..not play hide the parcel
of value from paying [iheld in private slush/trust..that the people OWN*.

at least transact transactions
sure those doing thousands of trades a day
wont be able to play the margins..but what good did they do really

made proffit..from speculating with your super
lost it...and now govt bails out the top[yet again]

bailout the poor
let the rich earn our extra cash..

yabby and I get alone ok, on some issues, he has that xenophobic wise men from the east thing.
I am aware it is based on the fact we are wiser.
And maybe it is fear of being called that that concerns eastern migrants.
Standing by my comments, Ludwig if we stopped filling the orders we would be very silly.
Japan, a Friend in ww1 changed as America cut of its supplies oil a Host of things.
What would become of our relations with China and India if we told them, an unlikely event,we would not sell them the amount they want.

<< …Ludwig, there is an essential contradiction in your assessment of the country's financial situation. >>

I don’t see any contradiction. In fact I’m sure just what you mean here, Pericles.

<< …the point about that "amazing mineral wealth" is that it has precisely no value whatsoever while it remains in the ground. It might as well not exist at all, if we don't dig it up. >>

Agreed. I have never said that we should just leave it in the ground.

But the rate at which we use it up is of great concern to me, as is the political paradigm and hence the real value of the wealth generated by mining, as I explained in my last post.

<< And because we do not have a lazy $200 billion or so lying around that is needed to perform this feat, we need to... <gasp> Borrow It >>

Why?? ?? ??

Why do we need to borrow money when we have such amazing mineral wealth, extremely large-scale mining and hence huge export income from it?

Even with big inefficiencies in spending, waste, overconsumption, huge profits for mining companies, huge pay packets and perks for politicians, too many public servants (according to some), etc, etc, we should still be getting well ahead with the national budget given the current rate of mining activity.

How can we still be borrowing money…..at the rate ~100 million$ day, I believe??

WHAT ON EARTH IS GOING ON HERE??

.

<< So long as there are flowers to pick, you'll be fine >>

Oh how right you are!! I could live on the smell of an oily rag. Um…...the smell a pwetty wittle fwower, I mean! Such is the simple life of a half-feral half-mad botanist! She-loves-me, she-loves-me-not, skippity-skippity-doo, tra-lalalalaaaaa!!

.

PS: Pericles did you try mixing Black Dog with Vivaldi’s Four Seasons? I did it with Spring. It is really is quite amazing [or maybe it was just that I did it late at night after consuming several glasses of Wolf Blass Eaglehawk Shiraz! { ;~# ].

( See the ‘Music’ thread: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5030#139653 )

Ludwig mate a day will come, assure as the sun will rise shortly.
That lets you understand Tony Abbott has not kept in close contact with truth.
In fact he is far better as a sports man than politician.
We are in fact far from bankrupt, this year we will produce a few quid more than our costs.
Mate Australia is awakening, that day may be here now, Abbott is subjecting himself to ridicule, on his side.
He already is yesterdays man tainted by his lies .
He could,great sportsman that he is, run in my view a marathon each day .
My view is he should for about 100 days.
A huge wall of lies is about to fall on him.
Get your advice about this country's debt from the world bank not Abbott/Pyne.
And not please from a man who lost his intelligence after Turnbull, Hockey, more suited of late in a children's play ground as a portable round about.

Divergence, at moments like this it sometimes pays to not just
rely on a poll in the SMH, but take note of what people actually do.
Perhaps you should buy a copy of this weekend's AFR, which quotes
various stats and which is a little more complex in reporting on
the matter, than the common press.

According to the AFR, when Bluescope retrenched 1000 workers in
Wollongong last year, BHP offered them other jobs in WA and Qld.
Of the thousand, only 40 have accepted offers. In Adelaide
something like 6000 people lost their jobs from Mitsubishi and
Holden plants. An expo was organised by 10 companies for out of
state jobs, only 11 people took up their offers.

Even within a state, it can be a problem. When Harvey Beef dismissed
around 75 workers, the Govt rushed in millions of dollars of aid and
work in other meatworks, like in Katanning was organised. Something
like 3 people took up the offers. Fact is that people don't like
selling up their homes, move kids to other schools, leave their
friends, to go elsewhere, if they can avoid it.

The details in the AFR also show that its more expensive to hire
foreigners, costs are listed. Large companies have their reputation
at stake, unlike small operators, so its a different ballgame and
they cannot cheat the system. These are not fly by night operators.

But when you are building things that are world's best practise,
you need skills. The Phillippines have excellent welders for instance.
They live close by and when the project ends they can go
home again.
It makes perfect sense to use them, if no Australians
want the jobs.

Next, if you work in the NW, you will be drug tested. Its part of
their safety requirements. That disqualifies a whole lot of
Australians

Mining is not for everybody, and neither is living in a remote part of AU. Just because there is a job there will not make anyone make a decision to uproot everything to take a job far outside what situation they have been accustomed to.
Why not get foreign labor, no doubt they will have a huge turnover of staff, and if there is a downturn in orders, it will not affect the Australians that would have uprooted their lives to move to the wilderness.