The latest Newspoll shows that the Coalition has dropped 6 points in the two-party preferred vote, whilst Labor has gained 3 points.

The Coalition needs to only lose another 6 points and Labor gain just 5 more points ..... then Labor will be in front. That could easily happen, and quickly, over the next few months.

Hmmm, I wonder who the opposition leader will then be going into the next election? Malcolm, where are you?

Malcolm is the only hope they have. Attack dog Tony will fail at the next election, just like he failed at the last "unloseable" election.

Hay FP, I did not have to read far before I knew you were from the left, only the lefties want Turnbull to lead anything. Of course I found your "Malcolm is the only hope they have." rather interesting.

Many Libs have offered him to you. They realise that you will like him, he is after all, just a slightly less erratic version of your KRuddy.

Why oh why won't you take him.

On that poll mate, you can hold your breath for about as long as that will last. That fool ABC had her on TV about 5 times last night. Don't they know that every time real people hear her voice, or see her, you've lost another percentage of the vote.

Lock her in a thickly padded sound proof, window less room, if you to gain at the polls. If she's out of sight, some folks, with short memories may forget how bad she is.

'Malcolm is the only hope they have'

Given that under Tony the Liberals are at least 10 points ahead of Labour who do you suggest can win it for Labour? Gillard usurping power has taken Labour from 52 to 45. Don't let your Abbottphobia get in the way of you thinking just a little before mouthing off.

Welcome to our new poster.
Hasbeen has promoted me to the left too.
Seems any one capable of clear thinking is a lefty loon.
Now do not get carried away, as and ALP member/activist our chances of winning this election are the same as me winning lotto to night.
There is no lotto draw tonight.
Gillard is our problem.
Turnbull is as you say, but the Australian version of the Republican Tea Party, Abbott's Circus, will have nothing to do with Liberalism.

Thanks Belly. Personally, I don't think the problem is Gillard at all, nor is it K Rudd, nor the Labor party itself. However, there is a problem there, and the problem is the hung parliament. That makes it virtually impossible to govern, without lots of compromise, deals and manoeuvres. If the Coalition had formed their minority government, instead of Labor, (they tried and failed), then the Coalition would be having the exact same difficulties that Labor has had, and they would be using the exact same techniques to hang on to government for as long as possible.

Under the minority government circumstances, Labor has had remarkable achievements, many of which will benefit the nation for generations to come. They have successfully passed hundreds of pieces of legislation, most of them bitterly opposed by the Coalition for purely political purposes. This Labor success will eventually become public knowledge to many more people as the next election approaches.

Attack dog Tony has had a 2 year dummy spit, and has never accepted the election result. The Coalition's costings at the last election, without the expertise of P Costello, revealed a 70 billion dollar costings deficit. That's a disgrace and a scandal. These guys are economic illiterates. Who in their right mind would really want our country managed by immature people like Attack Dog Tony, WA WA WA Point Of Order Drama Queen Christopher Pine, or the economically illiterate (in P Costello's words)Angry Joe Hockey. But don't worry, they'll be backed up by intellectual giants like Bronwyn Bishop and that strange senator chick who gets charged with criminal offences and does dances in question time. Gee, will old Wilson Tuckey now make a comeback? Ha ha ha. Wow, what intellectual giants.

I'm hoping that the Coalition will drop a further 6 points, when people listen to the spin of Joe Hockey today attempting to sabotage the National Disability Scheme, by saying that he has been told personally by state Premiers that they can't afford it.

Of course he means the new Liberal cowboy Premiers that have devised a treasonous plan in cohorts with Joe to discredit, destabilise or downright dismantle anything that the Govt does that will get browny points from the voters. Joe Hockey is also the only Shadow Treasurer to have never presented a policy costing ever. Only 10 mins before the last election did he present a set of figures fraudulently described as audit.

In fact his job as LNP Shadow is to devise excuses for not presenting policy costings. As he did again today. Of course there are no policies to cost, because Abbott hasn't presented any.

I'm hoping the public is starting to see through this and have a better understanding of whom it is that is actually on their side. The Govt had advocated a cut in company tax, opposed by Abbott and Co and the Greens , so therefore unable to get that up on the the floor of the reps, they have ensured that at least some of this money benefits business through consumer spending. It also provides stimulus , it's lateral thinking in action if nothing else.

If anything Labor has found another very good treasurer in Wayne Swan whom has been given the credit internationally for Australia's current enviable economic situation and first time triple AAA rating. Thats how good the world see's our situation at this time.

Speaks for itself, whilst we seem to be getting stuck locally (particularly in the media) in Abbott land. Where everything is wrong, nothing is positive, the Govt is always wrong no matter what they do. When your a voter stuck in that environment Hasbeen, Malcolm Turnbull would be a breath of fresh air. Maybe he would even bring budgetary accountability to the LNP as leader and make them a credible alternative Gov't.

Under the boyhood government circumstances, Labor has had arresting achievements, abounding of which will account the nation for ancestors to come. They accept auspiciously anesthetized hundreds of pieces of legislation, a lot of of them bitterly against by the Coalition for absolutely political purposes. This Labor success will eventually become accessible ability to abounding added humans as the next acclamation approaches.

______________________________________________________________

"The secret of success is consistency of purpose. – Benjamin Disraeli"

http://www.foodsaustralia.com.au/Organic-foods/
https://www.facebook.com/salliehayden

sorry hollysurly, have no got a clue what you are on about!
And sorry too that dreaming away Labors faults will not do it we are in it deep.
No one loves the party more.
But we forget too soon the battle to unseat Howard, our pledges, our hopes.
Gillard can not win back the popular vote.
Even opposed by Abbott and his shambolic front bench, we on the polling, face near death.
Even with the better policy's, against policy's bound to destroy the fabric of our fair go mate country, we are beaten.
Thomson is a symptom, of a deep problem.
Sussex Street owns our party, reform is a joke.
After we are smashed without change we will be, we may reform.
But till then our party is in power brokers hands not ours.
Who would not be able to beat such as Abbott?
A Gillard lead faction owned ALP that is who.

Perhaps we need a whole new approach to government, some form of a super party.

Labor have had some good ideas, but unfortunately they lack the ability to successfully implement most of them.

Another flaw in government is that while we, the people may know who we are voting for, we don't know what job they will be doing if they get there.

They may be elected finance minister one day, then, all of a sudden they become minister for ag, of the environment.

In the 'real world', business, one has to swim or sink.

I am a firm believer we need big business running government, or at least advising, after all, if there is an enquiry, it is generally headed by a retired judge, not a retired book keeper.

In my view there should be an elected leader, then under him/her, the brains trust, who, by the way, are on a moderate income plus healthy Bonusses if they perform.

This way we could have one party, where they candidates stand for election, segrigated into thier fields of expertise, and we the people can be the opposition.

If they under perform, an elected board can decide whether or not they get the boot.

Furthermore, there is the usual 'golden hand shake', but that's it. Once they retire they are on their own, much like the rest of us.

This supporting former pollies is costing us an arm and a leg.

Just on the polls, there are two keynissues here.

One, it's very easy to buy support.
two, it's much easier to improve when coming from behind.

But, if this resurgence from labor results in a lift of confidence from the people, then we all win, as that is what I said was the problem four years ago, lack of comfindence.

People will spend money if they know they can replace it. That's what confidence is all about, from your average battler, right up to your huge companies.

Great discussion in this thread.
Rechtub makes a good point about the structure of our government.
What he seems to be describing is the US system where the President is elected and then the President appoints Secretaries, (equivalent to our Ministers, as they are department heads).
These secretaries may come from business, i.e. Timothy Geithner, or academia, or may even be past competitors, e.g Hilary Clinton as Sec of State.
The peoples' elected representatives in the US system are Congress and the Senate who have to approve (or not)certain of the Administration's actions as well as its appointments.
The beauty of this system is that the president has the opportunity to build a team, (front bench in our parlance), drawn from the best of each part of the community. It avoids the problem of having ministers who are professional politicians and thus have no clue about the world of 'normal' work and business.
As to big business being close to government, I worry about that because, as we see now in the US, big business owns the US government because of the Supreme Court decision allowing unlimited campaign contributions.
We're seeing attempts to water down prudent regulations such as environmental protection, workplace safety, etc driven by business seeking to ever improve profits - at a time, I might add, when US corporate profits are high.
Business is vital and it is the creator of our national wealth.
But it never acts in your or my best interests; Business acts only in its own best interests, whcih is to be expected.
But, where citizens' best interest and Business's best interests are in conflict, then we - ordinary people - need protection.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Belly wrote: "No one loves the party more."

I can understand loving individuals of the same or opposite sex, family members, nature, learning, music, friends, intellectual discourse, solving mathematical problems, the beauty of algorithms, poetry, strawberries with cream and many other good things on this earth. However, I cannot understand loving a political party, a governing unit, a corporation or any other institution set up to exercise power or promote a particular interest. Seems like a greater perversion than a fascination with lingerie which can have beauty in its design and may arouse a healthy lust.

My son is an anthropologist. He is trying to promote the study of the political party as a discipline within anthropology. Maybe he can understand your love.

Yes Anthony, what Rehcub has described is the US system and I think
that has failed to keep politicians free of improper outside influence.

What every commentator I have read do not seem to have understood is
that every government is short of money.
Some, such as Canberra, are relying on borrowing from the market to
undertake those projects that are considered to be essential.
They do this because they believe (hope ?) that the recovery will give
an increase in GDP and so increasing income to government.
In other words growth fill solve their financial problem and enable
them to repay the loans.

Unfortunately they may be wrong in this belief.
This is what has happened to the US and European governments.
With our borrowing now exceeding $1/4 trillion and no more than small
growth thanks to a booming China, err whats that ? China is slowing ?
Well we have set ourselves up for a carbon (pun intended) copy of the
European performance.

Unfortunately, while Joe Hockey seems to be nibbling around the edges
of the problem I don't think the opposition really understands the problem.

Rehctub wrote, "Labor have had some good ideas, but unfortunately they lack the ability to successfully implement most of them".

I have 2 points to make regarding this:

(1) Labor has "very" successfully implemented multiple hundreds of pieces of important legislation. They have yet to fail at getting any legislation through .... that's a 100% success rate. Unfortunately, the general public is almost totally unaware of this legislation, because it gets very close to no media coverage. Totally, completely, absolutely unaware.

(2) The *ONLY* reason the scandals are making headlines, in the manner that they are, is because we have a minority government. Why? Because the government can fall if the media or opposition manage to successfully "get" a Labor politician. If Labor had a safe, easily workable majority, then scandals like the current union scandal would be on page 10, not page 1. There were plenty of Coalition scandals when they were in power, but because they could easily afford to lose a number of politicians and still easily maintain power, the scandals were not viewed as nearly important by the media, and these shameful scandals did not occupy page 1 for months and months on end.

In summary, Labor is not the problem, any one particular individual anywhere is not the problem. The problem is we have a minority government, and the exact same problem would be there if the Coalition would have been able to form their minority government.

The Coalition has received a 6 point reduction in the current polling. It's important to remember that the current polling on a two party preferred basis has the coalition at 55% and Labor at 45%. It requires only another 6 point reduction for the Coalition, for Labor to be in front in the polls. And then what? I can guarantee that the Coalition will then be, very quickly indeed, looking for another leader to lead them into the election. They would know, that under such polling conditions, that Attack Dog Tony would certainly lead them to yet another defeat.

I think being a bit hard on Belly there david f, I'm sure there are many who could understand the love of a political movement, particularly one that has had a tradition of values of the Australian Labor Movement.

And the only thing that Joe Hockey is nibbling at the edges of, is an iced doughnut Bazz.

Dear thinker 2,

Perhaps I am a little hard on Belly. People choose strange love objects. The history of the Labor Party has incorporated the racism of white Australia, militarism and economic rationalism. Keating chortled as he came back with a treaty made with the Indonesian butchers. Hawke sold Mirage jets to Pakistan for 26M putting at risk a $960M trade w India in addition to exacerbating tensions in that area. He also sold Steyr rifles to the Indonesian butchers and had the Australian army train their Kopassus Division which was responsible for many atrocities. Whitlam covered up the murder of the Australian journalists in East Timor and was the first to recognise the Indonesian butchers' takeover of East Timor. Hawke supported the PNG army in putting down the Bougainvillians who resented the destruction of their land and culture by the Panguna and backed the blockade of Bougainville by the patrol boats made in Bomber Beazley's area by Australian Shipbuilding Industries. There were several condemnations of the blockade by the UN. Keeping medical supplies and food from Bougainville caused many deaths. Hawke and Keating started the economic tationalist program which screwed the workers transforming regular jobs into insecure contract employment. Rudd and Gillard with the chaplaincy program have supported the introduction of chaplains coming from the fundamentalists of Scripture Union amd Access Ministries into the public schools. Children should not be subjected to wolves. There are those who love alcoholics or gambing addicts thinking they can reform them. I guess that's how one can love the ALP. The noble men who founded the ALP have long departed the scene. Actually I give Labor preference over the Libs when I vote because I think the Libs are even worse, but I can't see loving either party.

I can understand the strength of feeling that
Belly has for his political party. He's been
actively involved with them now for decades.
And he worries about the message dressed up to attract
us with the simple slogan of "The unions have too
much power" is a smokescreen behind which lurks a
philosophy that is both difficult to swallow and
certain to cause this country a good deal of harm,
should it be taken seriously.

Belly knows only too well that the concept of the Libs
is the politics of money and power. It's the ideology
of greed, filled by an unbridled commitment to
individualism. It leaves no room for social equity,
compassion or the idea of an egalitarian society.

I can fully understand where Belly is coming from.
And why. I won't bother listing all the cons of the
Liberal Party - it would take more
than the 350 word limit that we're given on our posts.
Suffice to say - I prefer a government that at least
tries to get on with the job of governing - and achieving
something positive for the country - to a party whose
only language is condemnation and obstruction.

Perhaps that's why Labor is up in the polls. People
are finally beginning to wake up.

A single swallow does not a summer make. Neither does a statistical blip. At 30% primary vote, Labor's goose is well and truly cooked.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/polling

Abbott is still more than a statistical blip ahead as preferred PM and Juliar is still plumbing new lows in popularity, and Labor's incompetence and corruption still remain the topic de jour.

The only way Juliar could start changing Labor's fortunes and regaining the public's trust would be by dropping the deceitful carbon tax, the thieving Thomson and Slipper.

one newspoll and Labor is back in the saddle, puleeze!

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8469356/slipper-staffer-takes-allegations-to-court
First Davidf please understand we have the right to our opinions and thoughts.
Because mine differ from yours is not evidence I or you for that matter are right or wrong.
My link, in a thread hopelessly hopeful, highlights my reason to return here.
My love comes in my view from an understanding of my opponents true nature.
SUE ME! but this morning this country sees a worse LIE than AWB! than Children overboard!
Ashby's CONSTRUCTED CHARGES HAVE liberals FINGER PRINTS ALL OVER IT
Howard working away in the back ground can be proud of this,may even have part ownership of it.
So too the ALP, as it did in 1975, can take some credit.
ACTU conference looked good to me, some thing to be proud of,until Gillard high jacked it!
Calling the true believers to arms is a death sentence to LABOR.
She has disenchanted those who put us in power.
She can not win by ignoring that.
And we can not get to see true journalism highlight this Ashby CONSTRUCTION.
If Abbott, this morning went to prison, if Bronwyn Bishop took over.
Labor would not win.
Not until it understands truth indeed will do.
And that truth is Gillard has to go.
In time this Ashby construction will haunt Conservatives.
I Have never in my life seen a more scandalous action in Parliament, it stinks of constructed planed to avoid the right action, sexual discrimination court, as a tool for tea party Abbott.

FP72E, getting legislation through the house is only the approval stage, it's implementing the idea that labor has failed in do many times over, resulting I. Billions wasted, confidence shattered in many cases, even lives lost.

There is no shame in not know knowing how to implement an idea, the shame is in firstly, know knowing that and secondly, ignoring the advice of those who have expertise.

The whole problem stems from the fact that politicians are not finically accountable for their actions, because, unlike businesses, who face financial losses for bad implementation/descsions, pollies simply loose their job, or, like the former environment minister, simply get moved on to another portfolio.

I have long held the belief that all front bench portfolios should come with indemnity insurance, so if they get it horribly wrong, as with insulation, we, the tax payer don't foot the bill.

So as I am sure you can see, getting something through parliament is only like getting approval to build you house, not building it, as a poor builder can ruin what could have been a great house.

I trust this clarifies my position.

Belly wrote: “Because mine differ from yours is not evidence I or you for that matter are right or wrong.”

Agreed.

Unfortunately the love that proceeds from the hate of others is in my opinion not a reasonable love. I agree that the Ashby charges have Lib fingerprints. The Libs are dirty dogs, but that is not a good reason to love Labor. There is a bond among racists who share a prejudice. They can snigger together while they put down the Other. IMO a good love is one that comes from the qualities of the loved one not from a shared hatred. To love Labor because the Libs are horrible is not a reasonable love in my opinion.

There is an asymmetry between a labour party and a party of business. Capital is a hierarchical construct so those at the top or representing those at the top are valid representatives. However, the minute a worker becomes a union official he or she is management and not a worker. If union officials would return to the ranks of labour after their terms were up that would be a corrective. However, being a union official becomes a career sometimes leading to parliament.

I voted for Labor in the election that Keating was supposed to lose. I liked his honest gloating rather than the phony “I am humbled” that politicians usually say when elected. In my dictionary humbled means ‘decisively defeated’ or ‘brought down in power.’ Winners are not really humbled. Losers may be.

Then he spoiled it. He said, “It’s a victory for the true believers.” I am not a true believer except in the scientific method. I voted for the ALP since I thought they were better than the alternative.

I like rehctub’s differentiating between making the laws and implementing them.

Montesquieu thought there should be a separation of powers between a legislature whose function is to make the laws and an executive whose function is to implement those laws. I think Monty was right, and the Westminster system in combining the executive and legislative functions is wrong.

Dear David F.,

I agree with you that "the love that proceeds from the
hate of others," is not a love worthy of the name.
However, I don't believe that Belly's love of his
party is based on hatred of the Opposition. Anyway,
I shall leave him to answer your post. I was merely
surprised by your assumptions in this case.

David I know no other way to say this.
You are giving more weight to your opinions than mine.
You also infer a hate that I do not have.
Best use your own thoughts and words to prove your point not make mine for me.
I am retreating a little here, making room for other posters.
But look it must be said, my words, for over a year have expressed my fear and indeed dislike, for Gillard and her supporters.
But will we see,here, a good solid look at the scandal of Slipper, his being hidden in his party.
THE CONSTRUCTED SCANDAL.
Would we have any problem hearing about it if it was a Labor plot against Liberals?
If so very many grubby hands from Labor not Liberal could be found?
I fear for my country's future Abbott has murdered the fair go mate we once valued so much,for this I will not forgive him.

Interesting discussion - can one love such a thing as a political party?
I don't think I could.
But I am certainly passionate about a set of values; in fact, have been all my life.
Social justice; the idea that a society is best measured by how it treats the weakest amongst it; care for the environment; standing up to the strong who would bully the weak.
All those values I believe in with passion. They've guided me through a successful military and then a successful corporate career.
And those values do lead me to be somewhat passionate about the Labor movement; because I do believe that it best - of all the parties - aligns with the values that I happen to be passionate about.
Of course, that emotional attachment to the underlying values doesn't extend to any particular iteration that happens to be governing at the moment; especially when I come to question if that government - and maybe Labor at this stage of its long life - has moved away from the values.
I get that others have different values. And that will lead them to place their passion elsewhere.
I'm not sure - at least in my case - what name I would give that passion. Certainly not love, but quite a bit more than simply commitment.
When Patrick Henry said, "GIve me liberty or give me death", he must have been speaking from a place of deep passion.
Maybe we need some more words in our lexicon to describe this passion.
Or maybe there are words and I just don't know them.
Anthony
http://www.observationpoint.com.au

Dear Belly,

You wrote: "My love comes in my view from an understanding of my opponents true nature."

Presumably your opponent is the Liberal Party, and your love is your love for the ALP. If that is not your definition of your opponent and your love please correct me.

If I have presumed correctly your love for the ALP is a consequence of what you consider to be the 'true nature of the Libs.' Therefore your love for the ALP has to do with your feeling about the Libs and not the nature of the ALP.

PLease tell me where I am wrong in the above.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/the-powerful-spin-of-abbotts-wrecking-ball-20120518-1yvlu.html
This link, in my view, is quite right.
But too supports my view Labor is contributing to its problems.
Gillard, and her close supporters, are unable to focus on voters and their views, not Abbott's faults.
Unsure that they knowingly insult those voters not already ALP or just do not understand it will be them who un seat us.
Gillard did, forever, chase many away by being seen to knife Rudd.
She never tried to explain herself on carbon tax.
Yes Abbott twists the truth.
But Labor expects others to uncover his miss deeds.
AG after Gillard we need a salesman or woman not another failure.

Dear Belly,

I don’t think Gillard is a failure. She has been masterful rather than mistressful in appealing to the independents in taking government after what was a tied election. However, due to her narrow margin she is constrained in what she can do.

The article you referred to mentioned the environmental problems that we face. Rudd in talking of a big Australia seemed oblivious to those problems. In my mind he had to go. Keating with his economic rationalism seemed blind to the interests of working people.

Labor is in a box. The heritage of Keating and Rudd is simply indefensible. If voters are appealed to on the basis of what the party has done they will reject the ALP. It has not served the interests of the workers as a labour party should. It has accepted militarism and ties with dictators. Even where Gillard has tried to make Australia better by her agreement with Wilkie to do something about problem gambling she has been constrained by the NSW members who get support from the gambling ‘industry.’

The ALP cannot run on its recent record. Whether or not Gillard would like to make the ALP an instrument for serving the interests of the working man, opposing militarism and creating an economy consistent with a sustainable environment she cannot because of the many interests within the party opposed to those aims. I don’t think anybody else could do any better. All she or anybody else at the head of the ALP at this time can do is to attack Abbott and the Libs as they are simply worse.

The problems of the ALP will not be solved by replacing Gillard. Kelvin Thomson, the ALP member for Wills, is acutely aware of the problems of our unsustainable population increase and is a guiding light of the Sustainable Population Association to which I belong. However, I don’t think he could do any better in Gillard’s place. He would still have to make the compromises that Gillard has had to make to keep Abbott and his troglodytes out of power.

FP72E,
Labor gaining in the polls?

The latest Galaxy poll for the Courier Mail does not show that.

In fact it shows Rudd, Swan and Emerson all gone if an election were held now.

Just thought I would mention this.

Dear Banjo,

The point is that the election is still quite
some time away regardless of how much Mr Abbott
and his colleagues keep wanting it sooner.
And, as you know in politics - things can change
in a flash. Seemingly unwinnable elections have
been won in the past and winnable ones have been
lost. We'll have to wait and see. Remember Mr Abbott
won his party's leadership by only one vote. It will
be interesting to see what sort of party support he
gets - if his ratings start to go down in the polls
prior to the next election. Will he remain as party
leader. I wonder.

Lexi,
You are right about things in politics changing quickly.

Ep72 was enthused enough to start this thread on the strength of a small gain in one poll so I thought he/she should be reminded of that.

This poll shows not one Labor member remaining in Qld, but who would expect that to be so?

Yes, Nicola, it's all Abbott's fault.

FP2D2

You might be onto something here:

"The latest Newspoll shows that the Coalition has dropped 6 points in the two-party preferred vote, whilst Labor has gained 3 points.

The Coalition needs to only lose another 6 points and Labor gain just 5 more points ..... then Labor will be in front."

The hyper-hypothetical principle is most attractive, isn't it ? For example,

* if only Greece would pay off all its debts, we'd all be okay economically.

* if only Assad would go into exile and let the opposition call free elections, we would have peace in some of the Middle East.

* if only scientists could find a cure for all cancers, the world would be healthier.

* if only they could develop cold-fusion energy, we could do without carbon-derived fuel.

Follow that dream, reach for a star ......

Isn't it better to reach for the stars than
to wallow in the mud. If you aim at nothing -
that's what you'll end up with. The old fear
of risk taking - has always been just an excuse
for inaction and apathy - and sitting on one's
hands is simply not good enough anymore.

While some drink from the "fountain of knowledge,"
others just gargle.

Point taken, Lexi :) Still, once bitten, twice shy.

Love and best wishes,

Joe

Before the NSW election, 12 months 6 months and that many days, my warnings had some tell me to wake up.
My eyes tell me, right now, it will be worse in this federal election.
UNLESS, my party hears and sees the true nature of hanging on to Gillard.
No one can ignore her standing,this should be our time.
Opportunity exists right now,hampered by Abbott, his side kick the Murdock media, we should be leading, not following such as these two conspirators.
Julie Gillard is a failure.
REALITY! an important thing in politics, always.
My green Friends dislike me too, yet I speak only the truth, they are in as much trouble as Labor.
Seen as controlling us, they defie the wishes of most voters and do Labor and them selves great harm.
Look at Tasmania, see the real damage taking place.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

You stated, "Once bitten, twice shy,"
I fully understand. Even Cupid at times
is ready to toss his bow and pick up
a bazooka... ;-)

But I did warn you that I'm multi-talented.
I can post and piss people off at the same time.

Dear Lexi,

You could say the most terrible things and you'll never piss me off ;) In any case, you have such a good heart - you see the best in everybody, even the Labor party - that I don't believe you could ever write anything even remotely offensive. The smile in your heart comes through in everything you write. Keep it going :)

Love,

Joe

Just as one swallow doesn't make a spring, one poll doesn't give an answer.

The latest Queensland poll shows exactly the opposite result. If a federal election had been held today, it would have been a swan song, for Swanny & KRuddy.

It will be interesting to see what the next couple of major national polls have to say.

Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

Thank You. That means a lot to me.

Dear Hasbeen,

We can't pay too much attention to polls.
They can quickly change as you know and any
protracted slide in poll ratings will see
a nervous party move to dump their leader.
That applies to most political parties.
Especially when their leaders are not all that
popular. As you said - it shall be interesting
to see what happens prior to the next election.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/where-is-labors-prior-conviction-20120519-1yxez.html
I like the link.
Not its content.
But its truth.
I see in it a truth that will not change,without change.
A cabinet intent on refusing to even consider the views of its rank and file.
One convinced we are on a string, will march when told to, forget the work choices campaign, its victory.
And the turning of our party to a heap of? best not say, by a few just a few,behind Gillard.
We have, or is it them? the *owners*
of the Modern ALP, too only few, forgotten the middle, forgotten how we promised so much.
We sit contemplating a truth,Abbott, his team, are worse, and not ready to rule a country dunny.
Yet we refuse to see, even to consider, Gillard is last months road kill, and we are trying to sell her as?
No second coming for her but some convince them selves they know better than those annoying foot soldiers.
We should stay in our boxes, wait till called,to man the booths/titanic walk the letter box crawl, knock on the doors selling our unwanted road kill.
It will be alright,there is always reform! easier after our numbers are about a third of todays!

Belly,
You often use the word truth and you use it in the same sentence as claiming Abbott will be worse than Gillard. The truth is you do not know, as Abbott has not been tried.

In my opinion the only worse situation than present is if the Greens got government.

Labor not only has to replace Gillard, but ditch the Carbon tax and all the stupid green schemes and stop the illegal boat people from coming. So face the truth!

Dear Banjo,

We all have our own version of "The Truth."
Mr Abbott believes that he should be the PM.
He will "Scrap the tax," "Stop the boats,"
and cut infrastructure, health, education,
roads, transport, and all other things that
make our life liveable. But hey - the rich will
get richer - and who cares about the rest of us.
"Welfare is bad for business." You either sink or
swim, and if you sink - well that's too bad.

Some people fear the carbon tax just as
they did the GST simply because they don't
want to understand it. Once it has been implemented
and functioning, those people may realise that it's
not the catastrophe that they were led to believe
that it would be. As for "all those Green schemes"
that you're referring to? Not sure which ones
you mean that you're so dead set against. As for stopping
asylum seekers from coming to Australia? That is an
issue that's been perplexing governments for decades -
and will continue to do so as long as conflicts exist
worldwide. More arrive by plane than by boat and Temporary
Protection Visas actually encouraged people smugglers and
asylum seekers to come to Australia.

It's all very well to sling off at the government - but it
is a minority government and no matter who's in charge -
the problems remain. Of course having to deal with a
toxic political environment and an obstructive Coalition
only adds to the difficulties. All things considered
the government is at least getting on with its job of
governing. I certainly don't envy the PM the
job she has had to do.

But you go on pointing out the failings of the government -
and ignore the failings of the Opposition. You just might yet
end
up with the government

cont'd ...

oops - I meant to say - and you just might end up with
the government that you so rightly deserve - while the
rest of us will have to wait another three years to fix things.

Banjo the Beer is still on, and my shout, but bloke you know little about politics.
Abbott is the Mad Monk of the past, his past is enough.
But his present? worse.
Test me!
Without an early election he will not be leader, Gillard will not.
Now thousands of words have been put in print just here, about Slipper, how he turned evil after leaving Libs.
How Oakshot and Windsor turned evil three terms after leaving dads army the failing Nats.
Those posters ignore haveing Windsor raised to Saint status, when he as an independent, years ago, propped up a minority NSW Liberal government.
Look at this mornings press,so very many advocates of getting Slipper would not even know about Heffernans past.
He has an extremely big mouth connected to a very small brain.
He only need fill that mouth with water.
To attend a fancy dress ball as the Waragamba Dam.
A history tainted with inappropriate sexual comments this hill billy should, as Abbott says about others,have his vote rejected!
One rule for all.
Abbott the Rabbit has two views none involve truth, two heads and both empty.

Belly,
I have not forgotten that we will enjoy a beer together and I will shout my turn.

You may think I do not know politics, but have been around a little bit more than you and have been interested from a young age. My opinion is that it will take far more than a leadership change to pull Labor out of the bog. Surely you would not like to see your mate Shorten take the job on at present. Poor odds to win. The big issues are the Carbon tax and the illegals. Next is further blow out of the NBN and poor take up by households. Given the stuff ups to date that is likely.

The best thing for Labor now would be get an election over with and start to build again hopefully with some decent members gaining office in coming years.

Lexi,
Comon, you know darn well the boats were stopped from coming by the previous government. So don't try to make out otherwise. The Rudd Labor mob started it all againby laying out the welcome mat. 600 have died so far and the next budget is to spend over $1 billion on this, so called, humanatarion folly.

What do you mean that more asylum seekers arrive by plane that boat? Simply not true. The only time that happened was when Howard had the boats stopped. Illegal plane entries are sent packing ASAP.

You mention infastructure. Labor has not constructed a thing in 5 years, the money was simply thrown away. Billions wasted.

Yes we deserve that the current mob.

Oops, last line should read. Yes, we deserve better than the current mob.

Come to think of it, if Abbott turns out to be the dissaster Belly and Lexi claim, Labor will be back in 3 years, so bring on the election.

Lexi,

Stop making straw men and telling us what Abbott will do. Especially when Labor lied about what they would do.

Abbott will be a far better PM than Juliar or KRudd ever were.

Dear Banjo,

I'll say it again. The trend of asylum seekers to Australia
in the Howard years followed world trends. The figures
show clearly that war, civil unrest,
and persecution determine refugee out
flows rather than any deterrent policies in
destination countries such as Asutralia.

Asylum seekers continued to come by air, 4000 per annum - in the
last decade 76% of asylum seekers came to Australia by air.

It is quite clear that the major reason for the asylum seeker
numbers in the early period of the Howard government was not its own
policies but a decline in the number of asylum seekers in the
world.

When the world refugee numbers rose again in the mid 2000s, so did
the numbers coming to Australia. The Howard government
policies had only a marginal impact on the total number of
asylum seekers coming to Asutralia.

The UNHCR does not differentiate by mode of arrival - but Mr Abbott
deliberately encourages our obsession with boat people.
It's obviously good politics to focus on boat people only.

We never hear Mr Abbott admit that more asylum seekers come by air
than by boat.

The Sydney Morning Herald reported from Wikileaks that a
"key Liberal Party strategist" told a US Diplomat in Canberra
in November last year - that the issue of asylum seekers was
"fantastic" for the Coalition and "the more boats that come the
better."

That "key Liberal Party strategist" could not have been more
explicit about the political game being played.

Dear Shadow Minister,

I can't help but wonder how the moderates in your party
feel about the slide in the polls. As Joe Hockey indicated
recently - he's not prepared to make promises as treasurer
that he can't keep. It seems there's quite a big hole in
the costings.

Lexi,
You must get your info direct from the green weekly and you are naive enough to believe it. Our DIAC figures do not support your assertions. You had better look them up, I have in the past and am not doing it again.

You are aware, of course, that illegal entries by air are sent back to their point of embarkation within 72 hours of arrival. There are few of these because the airlines have to bear the cost. Of the legal entries that apply for asylum, only about 30% are successfull and the balance have to leave.

You are now suggesting that the Liberals are encouraging illegal boat entry, which is totally absurd. Of course a Lib stratigist would say the illegals are good for their electoral prospects. Because the public want the boats stopped. The same as a Labor stratigist would say that a Lib failure to stop the illegals would be good for Labor. Remember Gillard mocking the Libs with "another boat, another policy failure" untill the boats were stopped. Talk about politicing the issue.

If your wild assertions were anywhere near correct Labor would be shouting it from the rooftops. Funny that Marilyn Sheperd has not got that info.

I do not believe it and neither does the Australian public.

Lexi,

While the numbers arriving by plane might have followed the global trend, the numbers arriving by boat very clearly did not. As the pacific solution was about the boats, the massive drop in boats far outside the global trends shows incontrovertibly that the pacific solution stopped the boats.

That the arrivals dwarfed the boat arrivals from 2002 to 2008 is mostly because there was no comparable pacific solution for those coming by air, though Juliar's proposed change would have allowed those coming by air to be shipped to Nauru. It is notable that now those coming by boat exceed those coming by air.

For holes in costings, look no further than Swan's budget predictions. The 2011/12 budget was supposed to have a deficit of $13bn, with a deficit of about $43bn, Swan's budget is as reliable as Juliar's promise that there would be no carbon tax.

SM as this is a thread about polls. You seem to put a lot of stock in a poll appearing in one of Rupert's chip wrappers. I have a novel idea. I'll call it the "NEW DEMOCRACY". As the Mad Monk and his wombat party are big on so called cost savings. Elections cost a lot of money to stage, millions in fact, lets do away with them, at the same time as we replace that hated senate with the gulag another cost saving. With support for the Anointed One running at 55% in the latest NOnewspoll, I think its only fair that the Mad Monk should form a new government. In a new 100 seat parliament the conservatives will hold 99 seats and a blind dumb, mute, preferably a chimpanzee, will form the opposition, as you know you can't have good government without good opposition, that is clearly demonstrated by the goings on in Canberra at the moment.
The first act of our new leader will be to visit Uncle Sam for some serious anal exploration. Actually that would be his second job on the 'to do' list. Firstly he would have to prostrate himself in front of the 'Holy Trinity' God the Palmer, God the Gina and God the Holy Forrest and give thanks for his elevation to sit amongst the divinity such as Daddy Rupert. Then on a monthly bases if the 0.001% of Australians are not happy with what they are getting from the Mad Monk in the form of tax cuts and goodies from the fire sale, he can easily be replaced with say that crazy ex-senator from SA Arnie Schwarzenegger (remember we replaced the Senate with the Gulag and its full with Greens and Laborites). Just a thought.

Someone's been hitting the wacky weed again?

Dear Shadow Minister,

We don't need your confession on this forum.
If you want to smoke - go right ahead.
We fully understand why you need to do it.

Lexi it is unlikely SM smokes dope.
Conservatives can acquire its effects without the need to smoke it draw back or not.
For some time I have pondered why we use the term dope.
Is it a reference to the behavior of users or the product?
Red wine and Whiskey, usually paid for by taxpayers is Conservatives other method.

Electing Abbott would result in some plan to entrench himself on the Gov't benches. Democracy has always been a stumbling block for the conservatives of this country that is why they always attempt to frustrate it when they inhabit the oppositions benches.

In 1975 they managed to unseat a twice duly elected govt by and through the circumvention of democracy, made possible by the death of the Labor sitting member. They installed a ring in Senator (changing the balance of power) with help of their compatriot scoundrel Bjelke Petersen. This ring in managed to get between the Govt and its own finances, voting against the Govt on every single bill, until the Govt ran out of money allowing another scoundrel in Sir John Kerr as GG to step in and dismiss the Govt.

The darkest time in Australian political history, and exactly the sort of tool Abbott would use to usurp power if possible now. Just for powers sake having no basis or values other than a pious religious upbringing and a personal belief about being born to rule.

Obviously historical context is absent in your thinking Banjo, nailing you as younger than us I suspect, and possibly contributing to the reason why Belly considers your view naive. Abbott's first policy in control of both houses would probably be electoral redistribution in his favour.

Believe it or not Banjo things could actually worse than they are,(and they are really not that bad anyway), with the mistake of electing Abbott PM being irredeemable, irreversible. The extreme right ideological basis for todays LNP is like Howard on steroids with a ruthless gutter touch. And thats just in opposition. Imagine when they could cook the Treasury books, (as they themselves claim the Govt can).

In reality Banjo the Govt and the Treasury, are in fact separate entities as the politics of the 70's proves, a time when the LNP managed to deny the Govt access to its own Treasury through the abuse of parliamentary process thereby rendering the Whitlam Govt unable to govern.

I see parallels today Banjo with the Abbott opposition playing the dirtiest political game I have ever witnessed. I'm hoping it doesn't work.

Just the prospect of Attack Dog Tony (refer FP72E page 1 ) being a prospective candidate for PM is concern enough, let alone the prospect of him actually succeeding.

Thinker2,

The Abbott and coalition you describe exist only in your mind. You need to create monsters to enable you to continue to support the nightmare that Juliar's administration has become. Labor MPs now face abuse when door knocking from the antics of the lying troll and Labor's corrupt ministers.

Then you get all precious about the coalitions tactics against the carbon tax which are a copy of those used against work choices.

What is good for the gander is good for the goose.

Thinker,
For a person with such a pen name, you certainly are a dreamer. They are fantasies. As Banjo said "I my wild erratic fancy, vissions come to me of Clancy"

You are wrong again. Belly and I are the same vintage, we agree on some things and disagree on others but that is OK. One thing I do know is that we are both practical blokes.

The political situation that Labor are now in is entirely their own doing, brought about by rash, idealistic decission making and incompedence. Those who blame the media and/or the opposition are merely fooling themselves and need to have a fresh look at what has taken place in the last few years of Labor. I think Labor has backed the wrong horse in supporting the AGW theory and the carbon tax. Then created the millstone around their own neck by changing the policy on the illegal boat people, it was unnessessary and rash.

Interesting to see what happens with the NBN.

Dreaming will not fix the problems of the ALP.
Slandering them will not go away.
Abbott is as I claim, in fact worse, it would not be acceptable to put my true opinion of him here in print.
Yet,with out doubt, some in his party, share every view I have about him.
A great chasm awaits him, any day media focuses on his words acts and plans.
Our thread starts by informing us Liberals lost 6 points, then pole dances in joy!
Labor got three of them.
Who got the other 3?
After a good Labor budget, cash in the right pockets,after Abbott told us he did not trust mums and dads? we gained ONLY 3%
A very real chance Labor can win exists, POST GILLARD.
It needs to be soon, any early revival in Labors polling is counter productive to our chances.
Taking Julie to an election is taking road kill to a Macas and offering it as breakfast.
Watch the next polls,and the one after, Abbott is behaving badly, but if Gillard holds her personal polling, bad as it is, prepare for an ALP white wash as gutless parliamentarians ignore party's fate.
When did this country have two so very wrong leaders to pick from?
When , not excluding the 1970,s was our news reporting be in the hands of more unbalanced and uninformed commentators/news manufacturing slugs?

Belly, the budget failed to ignite the voters in Labor's favor. This week the Thomson Affair will push the Labor vote down. The party is looking at a NSW style catastrophe when ever an election is called, and it may well be sooner rather than later.
There has been a huge shift away from Labor in many parts of Australia over a long period of time. My own seat of Kingford Smith was safe ALP under Lionel Bowen, even in the darkest days of the Whitlam government Lionel could pull 65% of the primary vote, today Garrett commands 45% and the seat is now marginal with no significant boundary changers. I think the seat will fall to the Liberals at the next election for the first time ever.
I note the polls show the Green vote is holding up well, despite our 'close', and I say to close, association with the Labor brand.

"Dreaming will not fix the problems of the ALP."
Belly the ALP is a nightmare. Can you explain why? Not only Federally but in the States NSW, Qld others and at the Local level Wollongong etc. The Labor attracts too many of the wrong type of people and like the sludge they are, they rise to the top. I got out years ago and found the Greens.
Here in NSW local elections are coming up in September, going to be interesting. Might even throw my had into the ring, bit old but the local Labor controlled council could do with a shake up, got a few young ones interested, want to have a go, their hearts are in the right place, just need a steady hand.

Paul at least I do address the problems of my party.
Truly I have NEVER SEEN you do that.
Labor has lost its way, policy's are good, mostly.
But the knifing of Rudd, the blind heedless support for Gillard, a refusal to take the Greens on head on harm us.
You joke, off course, in saying you are too close to us, if you stood on the moon it would be too close for my wishes.
Labor will recover, will get the hope of 2007 back.
Paul my constant point, one you should consider, is being up front in my demands for better from my party serves it better than pretending every thing is alright.
Your party,at its peak, never to rise this high again, could today, let the Malaysian solution pass.
Let the poker machine trial start, let the small business tax breaks pass.
However, intent on any thing but consensus, waste the votes that came to them.
Above all, this gets me in trouble, every time,unfairly,your party taints mine and Paul,tell me I am wrong/lie More would never vote for or trust Greens than do, many more, 500 percent more at least!

Not at all SM and Banjo ,the Abbott opposition are clearly and openly playing the dirtiest type of political cards , the race one for example.

Although our country's sentiment and prospects are now regarded Internationally today by the IMF, as having the brightest outlook of all countries regarding the future. Our financial Rating is AAA from all agencies for the first time in our history.

And yet the Abbott team falsely portray's the economy, using words like crisis and catastrophic debt etc ad infinitum. This is where the fantasy exists.

The question is can it be sustained until an election in 2013, when the Abbott opposition must finally reveal what it plans are for our future (no doubt), with insufficient time again to digest the substance. Add a little more lathering up of the electorate over boat people and voila. This is what they did at the last election and that is what they plan to do at the next.

If the NBN can be just left alone too be completed, to become what it will be, then Australia will have leapt into the future with a publicly owned infrastructure asset that should me marked "never to be sold by the Coalition".

Forgetting minor parties, Independents and leadership, Wayne Swan's tenure as treasurer throughout Rudd and Gillard Govt's, has the runs on the board.

Joe Hockey has presented nil costings for their basically wish list policies or even explained how these promises would funded thus far. Thanks Joe for keeping us informed, see what I mean ?, it does wear thin after a while, and its been going on since before the last election in fact back to the day that Tony Abbott became leader.

Can it be continued to the next election result. I don't think it can be, and consequently nor can the Abbott leadership be sustained , or provide LNP with a real chance of winning in the long run.

Funny thing is it seems , that the only people in Australia with leadership problems worse than the Labor Gov't is the Lib/Nat Federal Parliamentary team.

Dear Thinker 2,

Yes, Yes, and again Yes!
Well said - and so true!
Bravo!

Lexi,

Perhaps you could explain your debating rules to T2. Perhaps providing a smidgeon of evidence rather than only wild opinion would help.

Thank you dear Lexi,

cheers T2

Dear Shadow Minister,

And this from a man who supports a party
full of noise and no substance. And keeps on
repeating the party mantra over and over again
to us. Now that's what I call "really wild!"

Lexi,

Don't be too hard on the ubiquitous Shadow Minister. He's had a very trying day.

I see him as a sort of conservative Errol Flynn, leaping from ship (thread) to ship (thread) waving his cutlass, mopping his fevered brow - his little mate, runner, in tow...and all in defence of that great and glorious narrative, the unsullied reputation of Liberal pollies.

It's a tough job but somebody's got to do it.

Dear Poirot,

You see Shadow Minister as a "conservative Errol Flynn?"

I see him more as the sycophantic character - Mr Collins,
from "Pride and Prejudice." Remember his groveling
praise of Lady Catherine...

Lexi,

I was actually more interested in the metaphor than the character, but you have a much broader knowledge of SM's foibles, so I'll bow to that : )

How cute, the poor little beat up lefties giving themselves a group hug.

Pathetic, but cute.

Goodness me, Lexi, I think we were both wrong.

He's sort of a tetchy lil' tike ain't he. I wonder what he'll be when he grows up?

Techy? yes but sounding like Flynn did in his final days.
Not too fussy about what bed he occupied.
Is lefty as big an insult as tea party?

Given the lies and deceit of Thomson and Juliar, being on the left or politics (or a lefty) is something to be ashamed of.

With regards this thread and Labor supposedly gaining in the polls:

"QUEENSLANDERS are waiting to smash Labor out of the state.

Support for federal Labor has collapsed to a mere 23 per cent in Queensland, the latest Galaxy poll conducted exclusively for The Courier-Mail shows. No federal Labor MPs would be left in the Sunshine State if this result were repeated at the next election.

And the majority of voters say this humiliation would be just desserts for Labor. Almost 60 per cent of respondents to the poll said Labor deserved to be reduced to a rump of one or two seats in Queensland.

Under Julia Gillard, Labor's primary vote has, for the second time, fallen to the lowest level recorded in the history of the Galaxy poll."

SM loves them polls conducted by those fish wrappers,particularly if they favor his conservative bunch.
SM is like a politician, if a poll favors him, say his approval rating in the latest Roy Ratbag survey as published in the Oonadatta Fish Wrapper was 123%, the polly will say "Great poll, great stuff, the people love me, got to love them polls." However if next month after a story has broken in the Oonadatta Fish Wrapper that the very same politician has been having an illicit affair with a tabby cat and Roy Ratbag's poll now shows his approval rating at -47% the poll will say "I never did trust them polls, after all they started WWII, the only poll I'm interested in is the one that counts."
If SM calls you a lefty don't be perturbed, he still thinks there is a possibility of your salvation, you are merely misguided and one day you will most likely come to your senses and return to the conservative fold. However should he brand you a communist, there is no hope of your conservative salvation what so ever you will be cast into the Bolshevik hell, to be tormented forever by Satan himself Karl Marks.

I came across the following link this morning.
It sums up rather well the political mess that we're
all currently seeing:

http://newmatilda.com/2012/05/22/thomson-scandal-future-oz-politics

Hi Lexi,

New Matilda SM will be branding you a commo LOL. Does the Parliament necessarily have to apply the principle of 'the presumption of innocence' to members as it is not a court of law where such a principle rightly applies. Should not a member who is guilty of bring the parliament into disrepute be suspended from parliament until they have cleared their name through due process. An adverse finding by the house privileges committee and once voted on by a majority of the parliament, a joint sitting of both houses, should be enough to have a member suspended from the house. I know political bias can and will come into play, but a detailed factual report by the privileges committee should be required, with dissenting comment, this report should be placed before the parliament. Suspending a member for what may be a long period is not something our polly's should take lightly.
I can't support the notion that a politician has the right to sit in parliament until he is basically locked up in jail. No more than the notion that a Scout Leader accused of you know what can remain so until found guilty and locked up. Its absurd! i'm trying to present this on a non political bases.

Thank you, Lexi,

The comments and excuses on New Matilda should be closely studied by first-year students in logic and public relations spin. There is some fascinating stuff there.

So what is Thomson alleged to have done that may be illegal ? The NSW police says that he has not broken the law by using his credit card to pay thousands of dollars for prostitutes, that's not illegal. So what else ?

* using a union credit card, i.e. union funds, not his own, the contributions of Filipina hospital cleaners and Indian ambulance-drivers on sh!tty wages, to pay for prositutes;

* sliding hundreds of thousands of dollars of union money over to his re-election campaign;

* employing relations (feather-bedding ?) on union money;

* employing other friends on union money to work on his re-election campaign;

* being on the take from a printing company to the tune of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars of union money;

* using union money to fly his wife around in luxury, to buy presents for her, etc.

* using union money to pay for re-election publicity material.

Of course, you may say that he is completely innocent of any of these charges. At least until he is found guilty of some, if not all, of them. And Abbott will probably be solely responsible for that happening.

In his defence, it may be suggested that he hasn't done anything especially wrong for a union official or a Labor Psrty functionary, but I couldn't possibly comment on that.

Thankfully, none of this is having any effect on the polls, which show a steady improvement in support for the Gillard government, says FP72E, from another planet.

Thomson is a cancer in the side of the unions and Labor, and until he is cut out from parliament, or resigns, the issue is going to remain, and the association will be Labor = corruption.

With the damming report from FWA (the statutory body headed by a retired judge responsible for these affairs) after a 3 year investigation, due process has been followed and the time for calls for presumption of innocence has passed.

Thomson has claimed innocence and that this was all an elaborate set up, yet cannot provide a single witness, a single piece of paper, or any other shred of evidence to even suggest his innocence. All we have is innuendo and his word, which given his previous lies to FWA is worthless.

While Thomson still stands in parliament, just about everything else labor does will be obscured.

I think the bloke is a grub.
Know his old boss is too.
Think after considering all things Jackson is too.
But be warned, he Will be found not guilty of some charges.
Here is the problem, he will face court, but has not yet.
Given the figures being thrown around, some of Abbott's claims,and Pynes are lies, ones they both know are so,and should face the Parliaments privileges committee for, deliberately, knowingly, lieing.
First I am not defending him, ever.
I helped remove a grub such as him, started that ball rolling.
Most at home with rank and file members, considering my self thus forever,I am the enemy for life of those parasites riding on union backs.
BUT, expenditure on winning his seat was not illegal, my branch put far too much in to winning a state seat, it was known by branch auditors and no dirt in it.
Labor/union things like this take place.
500.000? not true.
Kick backs? for one yes this bloke?
Do we lynch him now or wait.
Watch the results then act courts come before conviction or we have no legal system.

Well folks - I've done the best I can.
I've provided you with a link that I
thought summed things up rather well.
I do believe in due process - and the
man is entitled to that. I do believe
that eventually the truth will come out.
In the meantime we can argue this case
according to the media's take on things,
the political games that are being played,
and our own political inclinations. That
won't solve anything - except aggravating
each other.

Of course we could all take a step back - and
wait for the charges to be filed - and for
the case to be heard in the courts.
But that would probably spoil the fun for
some of you. So as you were - carry on.

You're right, Lexi, we should await the court's expeditious verdict on each of the charges that are likely to be made against Thomson.

I agree with Tony Winsor that the Parliament should not be used to expel a member - otherwise, in the future, a government with, say, a one-vote-majority, could use its numbers to order the removal of a particularly vocal and competent member of the opposition, in order to shore up its strength.

Of course, as soon as Thomson has been found to have committed one of the offences, or an offence at a level at which the Handbook deems sufficient to warrant expulsion, then it will be all systems go, and fair enough. He's out, and so will be the Gillard government.

But until then, Thomson is in that limbo-land between innocent and guilty - as Heffernan or Slipper might be if they charged with GBH or sexual harassment respectively. Let's hope that the wheels of justice grind as rapidly and as efficiently as possible.

Love and best wishes,

Joe

Thomson is in limbo between being everyone knowing he is guilty and being convicted.

Shadow ministers post is right.
And until, and it will happen, he is judged by other than frantic Abbott's team of miss fits it should stay that way.
In saying that I am not defending him, or any thing other than this country's legal system.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-news/greens-senator-lee-rhiannon-red-faced-over-poison-pen-attack-on-her-own-party/story-fn7q4q9f-1226364992039
I post this link for Paul 1405, and those holly followers of the greens.
It again highlights that they are not well served by this woman, or for that matter many within their VW Combi van.
an ex Trotsky Marxist Leninist, I think some will be pleased at this passing of wind in the Combi.

Here is the reality, Thomson would not be sitting in Parliament if Labor commanded a thumping majority, Thomson would have be cut adrift months ago, told to resign, you know, po, get out, dcm, what ever he would not be there now. Labor would have lost a by-election in the seat of Dobell. Abbott would have spilled a bit of Labor blood, Gillard would have been hosing down the fire, presumably with Thomson well out of the picture and life would go on. This crap about 'presumption of innocence' would have hardly got a mention as Thomson would have been hung out to dry. All Windsor is doing is trying to make himself look good in this whole affair, as he knows he is a dead duck in the seat of New England. Craig Thomson would have more chance now of winning New England as a candidate for the Communist Party than Tony Windsor has as an Independent. Windsor is a hypocrite.

Dear Paul,

We need more Independents in Parliament.

Lexi do not jump to help Paul 1405 he hates his old party more than conservatives.
And has NEVER said ANYTHING against his own side.
Those who judge Windsor know these truths.
He left the National party much more than a decade ago.
Holding his seat,state and federal, by big majority's EVERY TIME.
It is a fact Nationals are dying in the bush, they long ago, stopped being other than a big mining party.
Windsor, check how long he has been independent, propped up Grieners minority government in NSW!
ABOUT 16 YEARS AGO!
He has without break, been his own man, ever sense.
Paul, unable to confront my thoughts and opinions about his party with rational words, insults one of the very best members of our current Parliament.
Passing wind in your teams VW Combi is only adding to your own discomfort bloke.
PS question time is heading for a no confidence vote! clearly Abbott is unashamed to be seen as a Wrecker.

Belly,

The greens are no better. Look at Lee Rhianon putting the knife into Bob Brown over the donation he received.

I believe your right Lexi. We do need more independents. I would be very happy to have Tony Windsor representing our electorate, rather than the line toe-ing un-principled Liberal hack we have in our electorate.

Dear Thinker 2,

I also live in a safe Liberal electorate.
And I still remember the huge police presence
that this particular MP insisted on - when he
arranged a meeting with his constituents -
to discuss Australia's involvement in
the Iraq war. What was he expecting to happen
from the predominantly elderly people who turned
up to hear him speak. Did he not trust his own
constituents. It really was bad form - and many
people commented on this ghastly error of judgement.

Shadow Minister I have already commented about that.
The wind passing in the Combi van is quite funny.
However as you constantly target both Oakshot and Windsor, for betraying you or your slave party the awful Nationals.
A team without heart or a brain!
I am not surprised you would try to skip past the extensive history both have of being INDEPENDENTS.
Think you and I can agree on one thing.
The lies miss information non core promises your team are making will be of great use in restoring Labor post Gillard.

Belly, Belly, Belly. Why are people so unkind? You say
"And has NEVER said ANYTHING against his (Paul) own side."
OK here it comes. At the last branch meeting they served non organic herbal tea. I was truly mortified there you are satisfied.
And you say "Paul 1405 he hates his old party more than conservatives."
Craig Thomson can join the Greens any time he likes. We need his honesty, integrity and like Labor above all his VOTE. No no no, that's right he now sits with another pair who honesty and integrity cannot be questioned. Windsor and Oakshott. I would have no problem what so ever if Penny Wong jumped ship and joined the Greens, she can bring Douggie along as well.
Belly the greatest politician Australia ever produced came from your party the Big Fella Jack Lang, well he was in your party until you kicked him out. In fact 5 of my top 6 pols came from your party. The best from the Liberals, and I did admire him was John Gorton. If I had a top 1000 Pig Iron Bob might make the list, if i had a top 1,000,000 list Craig Thomsom might even make it.
you never commented on the part Windsor played in the downfall of Nick Griner here in NSW, a little bit of grubby political business that was.
p/s All you calling for an INDEPENDENT in your electorate next time, I think Craig might be willing to stand on your behalf, just give him you key card and the phone number to the local hookers.

SM
"The greens are no better. Look at Lee Rhianon putting the knife into Bob Brown over the donation he received."
Is that the best bit of dirt you can come up on The Greens, a beat up from on of the Murdick fish wrappers. Next thing you will be publishing the unbiased opinions of Piers Akerman and Al Jones.

Paul, how pathetic!

Lee Rhianon admits she wrote the story, and the first time I read it was not in the Murdoch press. I guess that you must be in denial.

I wonder if she had anything to do with Bob Brown's sudden departure?

Paul it is you who took the bait.
SM intent on changing the subject, both Oakshot and the man you defame, long ago fled the useless National party.
Both independents, with longer history that way than some Liberals.
Nationals, once the country party,under Black Jack Mcquen at least had a back bone.
Shadow MINISTER in laying claims to them openly admits Nationals are a slave like Liberal owned group.
Rianon, a left of left fool is far from the first to pass wind in the greens Combi van.
I can only hope not the last politics needs a laugh.
Besides Abbott's frantic *I want to be Prime Minister cry*

Belly,

You love putting words in my mouth. Both Oakeshott and Windsor (ex Nationals) come from conservative electorates, given the combined polling of the greens and labor of 20% or less, their decision to clearly ignore the wishes of their electorates and support the corrupt Labor government has appalled their voters.

The only reason that they continue to support Labor is that they know that they will be unemployed after the next election when the voters will elect someone that will represent the voters and not the MPs' interests.

Actually Shadow Minister you should stop
singing from the same hymn sheet as your
party's leader.

I actually have friends and family who live in
the electorates of both Rob Oakeshott and Tony
Windsor and these two men are held in very high
esteem in their electorates. So, spread your propoaganda
elsewhere. It won't hold much water in the electorates
of these two honorable MPs. You should be more concerned
about the re-election of some of your party's front-benchers.
It will be interesting to see how many of them are
re-elected at the next election or for that matter whether
Mr Abbott will still be leader. Joe Hockey is beginning to look better and better - after Malcolm Turnbull, of course.

cont'd ...

It ain't necessarily so
It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in Shadow Minister's Bible
It ain 't necessarily so!

"Rianon, a left of left fool is far from the first to pass wind in the greens Combi van."
Belly. Those that live in glass houses should not throw stones. I would much prefer to ride around in a combi van, than the black merier that so many Labor politicians prefer. You never did answer my question. Is the ALP's largest branch The Long Bay branch. Well when they cart Thomson off to the big house he wont be lonely he'll be so busy shacking hands with old Labor mates. How is Milton Orkopoulos doing these days, him and Thomson should share the same cell.
Labor people want to stop their crying and blaming everyone else for the pathetic state they find their party in and have a look at the 'talent' on show Carr, Shorten, Rudd and Gillard the list goes on. The Labor party couldn't organist a chook raffle (one of them would run off with the prize) let along a government.

SM I'm not sucking up, your party is full of wombats, with the number one wombat being the Mad Monk, gee that's a n insult to wombats. BUT I agree with your post about Windsor and Oakshott, no one who voted for them ever expected they would back Labor. It would be as bad as my party saying they are forming a coalition with the Mad Katter Party. I did like the way Bob was man enough to say his parties homo adds were wrong, good on him.

Obviously your ignoring the fact SM, that the Independents found themselves in a position of having to make a decision for the nations voters whom had voted indecisively. 50/50 in fact. And thankfully they chose a known policy path as opposed to the unknown path of allowing Abbott the Prime Ministership.

Abbott said he would "do anything" to become PM and it was all a bit much for them SM. And that was it from Tony. Perhaps he, (TA) should have tried less too buy their vote, having at the same time not clearly enunciated his policies during the election, except for presenting a set of bodgy election costings audited by sham accountants. Who would you trust SM ?.

Windsor I recall said it was the NBN that swayed his decision. "Do it once, do it right and do it with fibre" he said, or words to that effect. Clearly a policy based decision in the case of Windsor. He'll go down in history as a man of principle, no matter what his fate at the next election SM, and not even you can take that away from him. Same could be said of Wilke, and while I'm at it, even Rob Oakeshot has done a serviceable job. Lets not forget the standout and principled independent senator, Nick Xenophon.

Dear Paul1405,

I recently saw an interview with Rob Oakeshott
on television where Mr Oakeshott was asked why
he ended up supporting Labor instead of the
Opposition. He explained that when he spoke to
Julia Gillard - she took him seriously and tried
her best to persuade him as to why he should give
his support to her party. In contrast when he was
shown into Mr Abbott's office at the time - Mr Abbott
had his feet up on his desk - and he kept them there
the entire time - and all Rob Oakeshott remembers
is the brand name on the soles of Mr Abbott's
shoes. Mr Abbott obviously did not take the entire matter
seriously - until it was too late of course.

Lexi,

It could have been worse for Oakeshott, The Mad Monk could have had his shoes off and wearing just his socks. Give new meaning to the stinking Liberal Party. By the way did Oakeshott say if the Mad Monk was wearing big oversized red shoes, after all he is a clown. I thought I saw TA down at my local McDonald's the other day, but it was only Ronald!

SM you said "Belly,You love putting words in my mouth." You should be thankful to Belly, when he's putting words in your mouth he's doing you a favour, it stops you putting your foot in your mouth.
Sorry SM that's the best I can do tonight. LOL

Paul,

"SM that's the best I can do tonight." Better to keep your mouth shut if people think you are a fool than open it and confirm their suspicions.

Lexi,

I also know people in the independents electorates, and their view is that the anger against them is palpable. This is confirmed by their precipitous drop in local polling. The indication is that they would be lucky to win the post of local dog catcher.

Paul, not that it is any of my business, it clearly is not,but you can clash with other posters and not be overly rude.
SM not even related to truth your remark to me.
Paul, it may not please you, may annoy you but my words re greens are Representative of how middle Australia thinks of them.
The VW Combi is a well known put down used in my party, it is said those who gave birth to your conglomerate of differing views are North shore ex Labor voters.
Who turned up ready for conflict at every conference in one half full, both the van and the occupants.
Settling in on the foot path to screech save the sexless wombats or some thing.
A thought, before we,all of us, protest at others views, why do we not re view our own last ten posts?
Keep the window down Paul,that yellow wine can be potent.

SM you didn't even get the historical quote right.

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt." Abe Lincoln

Later the quote was paraphrased by Mark Twain with:

"It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

Belly you never answer my questions I feel rejected.

Q1 Is the Long Bay branch the largest ALP branch in Australia?
Q2 How is Milton getting on these days?

Belly, you may speak for "middle Australia" but I speak for the "silent majority".

p/s I have never ever personally attacked you on this site, all though I can not understand why you attack the Greens with such vitriol, we are not your parties natural enemy. I remember a post of yours before the last state election where you were considering voting Green.

I am a supporter and friend of Lee Rhiannon, and I generally back her views on most things. However I was not in agreement on the Wood's matter tended to back Bob on that one. More or less a storm in a (organic) tea cup. The fish wrappers like to beat up these stories if they can.

Dear Shadow Minister,

We shall have to wait and see what happens at the
next election in 2013. If Rob Oakeshott and
Tony Windsor are not re-elected - then it will be
a great loss not only to their electorates but to
Parliament - which badly needs more Independents like them.
MPs of principal and honour - not ones who simply toe the
party line.

Lexi,

As Sir Humphrey Appleby, would put it, it was a rather 'courageous' decision by Windsor and Oakshott to back the Labor Party in forming a minority government in the first place. For both of them the soft option would have been to back Abbott. And if Abbott had 'stuffed up' and he would most certainly have, then they could say "Don't blame me, I just thought he was the natural choice for us conservatives, bla,bla, bla." They would have got away with that line. A new election would see Labor back in power with a majority and the Bobbsey twins would have had no problems holding their seats for another 3 years or more.
p/s When you were referring to independent "MPs of principal and honour" you neglected to include that beacon of Independence, that man of integrity, that saint amongst saints, the man of virtue himself, hold on Paul your getting carried away, Craig (I love hookers) Thomson. Was that an over site? LOL

Dear Paul 1405,

Now I appreciate a sense of humour as much as anyone,
however - I do find it rather poor form to keep
poking at an MP who's the centre of the political
mess that we're all witnessing on the news currently,
and a man who's obviously being pushed to the edge.

Even Mr Abbott has had the grace to take a step back -
from his attacks on the man. We should simply allow
due process to take its course regarding Mr Craig
Thomson.

Labor will gain in the polls in Queensland as people become aware of the regressive policies of the present Campbell Newman gov't. He has stated that increased sea traffic to the ports next to the Great Barrier Reef will not increae the probability of oil spills and other marine problems. He is in the pocket of both the mining industry and the religious right. The latter probably won't hurt him, but the former will. Both Bob Katter's party and the Greens are concerned with his lack of concern for the environment. His election will be bad news for the Coalition. If Labor can stay in a while longer I think they wil take Queensland next election.

Lexi, I find from your posts that you seem to be a person with a softness for the ill treated, yes Mr Thomson is coping plenty.

Take honest Abe Lincoln, now there was a politician by all accounts with the noblest of virtues. Like Thomson, good old Abe threw his hat into the political ring and got himself elected. That put both men into the public spotlight, unfortunately for Abe someone blew his brains out, all Mr Thomson has copped is a few insults. If Thomson didn't expect that there was the possibility he may at some time be insulted by society in general he should have taken up plumbing or some such occupation rather than politics and kept out of the public gaze.
"Even Mr Abbott has had the grace to take a step back from his attacks on the man." step back, Abbott should now be applying the blow torch. Politics is played for keeps and all politicians should know that, if Thomson can't stand the heat, then he should get out of the kitchen.
Lexi its good to be a person with compassion and we all should have such a virtue. If I were to see an injured dog in the street I would go out of my way to help that poor animal, I think I have compassion too.

Lexi,

With regards the two independents, while I am generally loath to make predictions, I see their chances of re election being less than that of a snowball in hell given their "courageous" decision to back Labor against the clear political persuasions in their electorates.

I believe their demise will give unambiguous guidance to future independents to consider carefully the wishes of their electorates before making Faustian deals.

David,

It appears that as the people get to know CN, labor's polling is dropping further.

Paul,

The quote I used comes in many variants. However, the "new" shadowminister will try and avoid personal attacks.

I note that you support Lee Rhiannon's policies, (which considering the collapse of communism and most socialist experiments can only be described as of historical value), I can see little room for agreement on our parts, leaving only room for debate on facts.

Dear SM,

The people don't know CN yet. They may know the CN that stands for cyanide but not the CN that stands for Campbell Newman.

Is there a difference?

Belly
Of course there is a difference between cyanide and Campbell Newman. Cyanide is better for you.

SM
Is it true what Lexi said "Even Mr Abbott has had the grace to take a step back from his attacks on the man (Craig Thomson)."
Do you support my notion that the Mad Monk should now be applying the BLOW TORCH. Old Black Jack McEwen would be turning in his grave if he thought the Mad Monk had turned into a woozy choir boy and was giving aid and comfort to the enemy, TREASON!
You said "I note that you support Lee Rhiannon's policies," Like Lee in general I support The Greens policies. yes there is room for debate of those policies both within, and without of the party.
I find it difficult to debate both Liberal and Labor policies as their idea of policy seems to be no more than a 'grab bag' of promises around election time, or repeated attacks on what the other side is doing in government.
Its nothing new that the major parties are bereft of policy. I once asked a very conservative Liberal Party member why the party lacked policy. He seemed to equate policy to planning, and planning to socialism. He had complete faith in the 'free market' and when in government you simply react to the demands of the market. My liberal buddy did not believe in intervention, other than wheeling the big stick from time to time, for example to get those dole bludgers back to work. this guy was very big on dole bludgers, he firmly believed that if you cut the dole by 50% you would almost instantly cut unemployment by a corresponding 50%. I could only assume if you cut the dole by 100% then unemployment would disappear completely. Naturally, when you allow for market forces, wages and conditions will determine themselves. If this bloke was the government most Australians would soon become the poor relations of Bangladesh.

Paul,

The angle that Abbott is now taking is to directly tackle Juliar and while it might take some direct pressure off Thomson, it is still very much there.

I find the angle being pushed by Labor is more than a little trite, that because Thomo is feeling a little sad that the only solution is to ignore his heinous acts and Labor's efforts to cover them up. As long as Thomson shows no contrition for his actions and Labor pretends that Thomson must be treated as pure as the driven snow until led away to serve his sentence, then there is no justification for the scrutiny to cease.

As for Rhiannon, we all know that her policies extend beyond the greens' platform to issues like enforced boycotting of companies dealing with Israel etc. Do you support these?

As for your liberal buddy, I would say that his ideas fall far from most liberal supporters.

Dear Paul 1405,

The following link sums things up rather well:

http://newmatilda.com/2012/05/22/thomson-scandal-future-oz-politics

And this satirical, tongue-in-cheek one you may also appreciate:

http://newmatilda.com/2012/05/24/media-failed-us-thomson

SM

Lee Rhiannan is a strong advocate of Palestinian human rights, as are the majority of Green members including me. The peaceful boycott of business which support Israeli military action against the Palestinians in violation of UN resolution's is seen by some as a legitimate tactic to highlight the plight of the Palestinian people.
Personally, I do not agree with the action of boycott, at this time. I would rather bring to public attention business which support and profit greatly from militarism throughout the world, regardless from where ever those businesses originate. What is you view of militarism?

stand by SM!
This ones mine!
CN and Cambell may be the same.
But lee? mad as a march hare!
I will bet 99% of this nation know she is, and are as unhappy with her as I am.
Her only position in the A C T should be as a lolly pop holder at a very busy intersection!

Your right david f, Campbell Newman has already shown that he is a power crazed cowboy at best. A State Premier who thinks that he personally, should have control over the future of the Great Barrier Reef.

SM, the only accuracy in your post regarding the Independents is their courageous decision to back Labor. Beyond that, your talking about current state polling when it comes to Cowboy Newman and thats not relevant. David f is referring too future Federal polling and the oncoming effect of Newman's tenure and in addition this post is about improving Federal polling for Labor, at this time.

Finally reading between the lines:

"while I am generally loath to make predictions, I see their chances of re election being less than that of a snowball in hell given their "courageous" decision to back Labor against the clear political persuasions in their electorates",

means that your polling is showing, "that the relentless and withering personal attacks on Windsor, and Oakeshot (in particular) by the LNP, and the money spent (same) within their electorates, is resonating among local electors".

Here's a national polling question I would like answered SM,

"Who do you see as our most trustworthy members of Parliament" ?.

I think Windsor would top the list by streets with Xenophon, followed by Oakeshot and Wilke, with maybe Albanese bringing up fifth place.

Dear Thinker 2,

As always a voice of reason.
So refreshing in this internet jungle.

Lexi,

I have a personal interest in the Craig Thomson affair. My partner who is over sixty years of age and works in a large public hospital. She leaves for work at 4.45am 5 days a week rain, hail or moonlight. She brings home about $35,000 a year. Until recently she was a member of the HSU East paying $23 every fortnight from her pay to support the union, even when others were dumping the HSU my partner was there actively supporting. It was no secret within the HSU what that grub Thomson and others were up to. If all Thomson has to go on about is people calling him names then he is getting off very very lightly.
The ALP should hang their heads in shame supporting a grub within their own party when Gillard and the rest know exactly what Thomson has done. He and others not only stole from low paid workers so they could enjoy the high life, they robed these people of union protection and now they are open to attack from conservative governments, which has already started in NSW.

Belly,
You say "But lee? mad as a march hare!
I will bet 99% of this nation know she is, and are as unhappy with her as I am." If it is true that 99% think Lee is as mad as a march hare. It give me great comfort knowing Lee enjoys 1% more support than that disastrous bimbo running the ALP. Take a look at her latest disaster 1,000's of Australian workers getting the sack while the bimbo is helping her new found friend Gina Rhinoceros import coolie labor to work in her mines. And you think Lee Rhiannon is a march hare, please.

Paul,

But you're forgetting that poor Craig Thomson is completely innocent, until proven guilty.

Surely we can lay off him for a while ?

Until he is proven guilty ?

Then I'll shout you a beer ;)

Cheers,

Joe

Paul!Mate, Amigo, friend, body language heard of it?
Well it never lies, some just can never hide it, written verbal communication is the same old mate!
Now unless I am miss informed you are from the left pocket of the greens billiard table ok so far?
Any chance you may question HEFFERNAN?
EDWARDS IN VICTORIA?
ok get the rope I will help you lynch Thomson,get Kathy and her bloke too, Williamson next.
Nice us Lefty's, well long time ago for me, can get the blood rush and hang a few.
Bit perplexed why its our paddock you hunt in.
Heffernan and Edwards are sailing in free air, bet it would be different if they belonged to my tribe, yours? gee they would be swinging in the breeze!
Now I read this in your post, hurts, deeply,that I have said something too close to the truth, so?
Rant and rave,anything to avoid admitting Australia wants nothing to do with the ex every COMMUNIST faction there ever was fool!
Ah what are you doing with that rope Paul? get from behind me mate.

Belly

When it comes to Bill (the dill) Heffernam, a homophobic fool, a political moron. by the way I met him once for about 10 seconds. Tries to portray himself as a self styled, opinionated political head kicker. When it comes to head kicking he's only a third grader, a few old Labor boys would have Heffernan for breakfast. Fancy the Mad Monk using him as his political enforcer, if he does it shows his mentality.

Belly you will be pleased with the news that we The Greens have indorsed Lee Rhiannon as our lead candidate in NSW in the event your mob completely roll over and call a Double dissolution election. In the event of a normal election we can all be pleased to welcome Cate Faehrmann as a senator for NSW. in any event we will be fielding a very strong Senate team for NSW.

Dear Paul 1405,

I understand your interest in Mr Thomson's case as well
as your feelings and those of others regarding the man.
However, much as most of us want to see the end of this
matter I believe that Mr Thomson is entitled to due process -
no matter how long it takes or how frustrating it is
for the rest of us.

We may not like how slow the process
is but our laws are based on the principle that the
law serves the individual, not the state, and that state
political interests cannot outweigh the interests of the
individual, who must stand in law as a free man.

In contrast, V.I. Lenin made it clear that, in his
political philosophy law had but one primary goal,
"A law is a political measure, it is politics." And no
Soviet authority or communist leader abandoned this concept.

Under our system - we have established a man'r right to
liberty and to restrain the power of his rulers. We have to
remember (hard as it may be under certain circumstances) that
under our system we have the right to freedom, liberty,
and the right to the pursuit of happines as opposed to the
interest, control, and domination of the state over the
individual. Lenin's perception of law to most of us - is
repulsive - and we should not allow our system to be corrupted.

The Opposition should remember that and behave accordingly.

Paul 1405 my regards, your determination to expose your some what harsh views is there to be seen.
Sorry about the Lee thing, dreadful person that I am would rather be honest than lie.
Her Neo Nazi like hate of Jews, from such a radical lefty, has fixed my view.
Even within your party, ask Bob, she is considered as handy as road kill by some,me too.

Thomson has the right to assumption of innocence in the criminal courts. However, institutions have the right to protect themselves against crooks based on the balance of probability.

An employer could have fired him years ago on a fraction of the evidence. Apparently parliamentary labor has far lower standards.

Your description of democracy is handsome Lexi, and one we should aspire too. "The right to restrain ones rulers has a attractive ring". Such democratic power must be a priority at the core of any real democracy. Untrammelled power albeit from the business sector as well, is also worthy of restraint in the public interest.

I was listening to Bob Katter being one of only three people in Parliament who did think it was a good idea, not to pierce aquifers with drilling rigs for gas frakking, (advocating a moratorium on such activity), until we knew more about the effect on the aquifers of this process. He went on to say to basically, that aquifers were only aquifers because they had tops and bottoms without holes in them.

For the record only Katter, Wilke and Bandt supported that amendment.

Something untrammelled is going on here with Abbott supporting this bill to press on with frakking, and the Govt proposing it, when there is no need to rush, on this.

For the second time in my life I agree with Katter. I'm feeling rather unrepresented by either political leadership team on this one and smell a rat.

Continue on SM, with your public conviction of Thompson if it helps. But unfortunately even Julia Gillards polling improved today.

Dear Thinker 2,

There are so many issues that I am concerned about
and I, like yourself, and many other voters, must find it hard
to understand when given the opportunity to watch
Question Time - as to why
politicians don't discuss issues of importance (like
aquivers and drilling and its implications). Instead,
the entire session in Parliament seems to be an exercise
of diversion and attack. It makes one question - did
we really vote these people into our Parliament to
represent us? And Mr Abbott has to be the worst leader
of the Opposition in this country's political history.

Does he not realise how he sounds and that voters can
actually hear the stupidity that he's spouting. It's
embarrassing. I feel so sorry for his colleagues who
aren't allowed to say what they really think.

Our author I think, never thought the thread would run so long.
Be the one we debated every facet of politics in then return to its subject.
I too did not think so.
I am pleased but not deceived by two months increased polling.
Abbott lost those points as much as we won them.
Forget SM,he is fixed and not capable of movement any more than a marble statue is.
And remember Gillard has over taken Abbott before.
It is a measure of the unsuitability of both leaders to lead we measure.
Yet a hope, a light,exists .
If Labor can hang on, go its full term,by next summer a dreadful brushfire driven one, we will see more evidence climate change is real.
We also will see Democrats win in America,evidence of the total failure of Abbott's MENTORS the TEA PARTY!
Two new leaders is still my predicted out come before an election.

Belly, is it your prediction of a Rudd, Turnbull shoot out at the next election? Could dear Julia and poor Tony be cast aside without a though to the magnificent contribution both have made to the betterment of their fellow Australians.
Can I have you opinion of Bill Heffernan?

SM I find myself once more agreeing with you:
"Thomson has the right to assumption of innocence in the criminal courts. However, institutions have the right to protect themselves against crooks based on the balance of probability."

If Barney Rubble was charged with embezzlement in his previous job as finance manager at the Bedrock Savings and Loan, which has now gone into receivership, with thousand of jilted investors. Should good old Barney stay in his present job as chief accountant at the Bedrock Bank? Is the presumption of "Barney's innocents" so great he should remain at the bank counting the cash all alone after hours while he awaits trial on the embezzlement charge.

Thinker have you ever watched the doco 'Gaslands' a real eye opener about CSG and the practice of FRAKKING. I am a member of the 'Sydney Residents Against Coal Seam Gas.' we have been very active on the issue, as have The Greens. Bob Katter has been very vocal, good on ya Bob. If noting else Bob will back the farmer every time but Labor and the conservatives are backing big business. Before the last NSW state election we discovered that the Keneally government had sold out to vested interests on CSG. We ran a strong campaign in Heffron (Keneally's seat) against CSG. Keneally tried to hide the fact she gave permission for CSG test drilling in St Peters (an inner Sydney suburb and in her own seat) Despite the advantage of being 'The Premier' she copped a 16% swing to a no name Liberal blow in.

Paul you surprise me!
You have told me my views make me a Liberal but yours match SM here.
Abbott is nearing his waterloo his lies and fear are catching up and fast.
The first result of this should be him going.
Then Gillard.
Now just before the election both party's should develop preference party's.
So each can then warn voters to dump their preferences first in their phantom party's then anyone but the greens.
Some one gets a clear lead?
Bless Australia with a DD election!

Yes I have seen the doco "Gaslands" Paul1405.

Should be compulsory viewing on the subject of frakking.

It is amazing the level of deceit displayed by the corporations involved re the damage possible using this method of gas extraction, it's there for all to see in Gaslands. How about the tap water in peoples homes that you could light with a match.

Clearly the operators/miners in Gaslands knew little about the effects of frakking themselves and engaged in covering up afterwards.

Yes Lexi your right, we do indulge here a lot in the trivial pursuit of personally attacking public figures and conducting trial by media. Whilst the big picture issues go largely un-addressed.

I have got a couple of major concerns. In Australian workplaces today everywhere it seems in businesses big, medium or small, managements are moving to have any body with a real job replaced by contractors on much lower rates of pay and conditions. Workchoices by stealth.

One Big miner of coal in Qld have even recently temporarily shut down mining operations for show, such is their power, to rid themselves of their existing workforce whilst secretly advertising for contractors offering entirely less beneficial packages.

We own the resources and employ people to dig them up for us. We seem to have lost sight of this and at the same time consider it appropriate to allow them to spend the money they have made from doing this, to lobby and advertise for a deterioration in our working conditions and/or share in the benefits of the mining boom.

Under funded (privatised by Howard) disability or aged care sector workplaces now think they are profit making concerns and have seen outside managers move in and put pressure on permanent staff that have sickness and holiday benefits, in undisguised instructions to cop it or leave. The people whom work in this sector are already famously and tragically underpaid, as in recent news. The service deterioration for the clients is a most probably not a consideration for the operators, as much as the bottom line.

Two examples among multitudes

cont

Big Mega Business is ignoring the Govt and brazenly intends to further campaign and advertise for a further tightening of the industrial screws in their favour. Biding for the time that they will have the Govt they want, a Govt beholden to them. In this case, it is an Abbott Govt they want. Telling the viewers of their commercial TV outlets that anything the Govt does is bad, and anything Abbott says is right, on a daily basis. This they believe will get them over the line next election and the sooner the better they chant.

Lets hope it doesn't work for our sake.

To get back to topic,

Tony Abbott running for the door when Thomson voted with the Opposition aginst a government motion, was, from the vierwpoint of along-term Labor supporter, clearly a cynical attempt to demonstrate that he had more integrity than the Government in who would, or wouldn't, accept a 'tainted' vote. Obviously, Abbott, taking the long view, doesn't want to be associated with Thomson, just as Howard refused to be associated with the tainted vote of Mal Colston back in 1997.

Thankfully, the Gillard government is much more broad-minded, and would be prepared to accept the support and vote of any member, no matter where it came from. That forgivingness and broad-mindeness is clearly much more in an Australian tradition than Abbott's push for some sort of 'integrity'. On any other occasion, Gillard would be prepared to accept Thomson's vote, in the spirit of 'forgive and forget'.

After all, apart from members like Nick Xenophon and maybe Tony Winsor, for most MPs, integrity is pretty much an alien, almost a foreign, concept in Australian politics these days. Where are there any votes in it ?

Joe

Labor is far more broad minded, with the full range of morals from the incompetent to the corrupt, kiddy fiddlers etc?

I suppose the 10% of Australian population with criminal records need to be represented.

That post from Shadow Minister is not worth reporting.
Not worth my once head on charge.
It is best in its self to rebut any thing he ever says or said.
Worth however comparing it with yesterdays question time.
The dreadful insults Abbott's mob threw across the floor, *go back to Tasmania and rot*
Dead man walking, a host of filth.
Tide is turning, Abbott, even with in his party, is falling.
Do many know? workers at Kurri Kurri smelter refused to see him?
That his penchant for deliberate lies is bringing him in to disrepute.
Do not be offended by his words, nore those of Shadow Minister.
Revel in them!
At last! with the leader no one wants, we are benefiting from the fact they want him less.
Gillard, not my mate, has his measure now, see him run, trying to get out the door.
So very funny.
Stand tall those not Liberal/conservatives, see our opponents for what they are.
See our sad vindictive slanderer for what he is.
We need not defend our selves.
I am so very proud, honestly, that I am over my uncontrolled anger I once showed here, even leaving because of Shadow Minister twice.
I have many Liberal party mates, close true mates, every one of them would condemn this bloke.

Well, Shadow Minister, criminals are people too and are entitled to vote and be represented in Parliament, even if they can't stand themselves, so why shouldn't the Labor Party mix freely with them and share the mores and values of some of their fellow-Australians ? 'Forgive and forget' seems to be the mantra of some Labor Party members (okay, not many but some), and why should such a significant minority's views be neglected ?

Cheers,

Joe

The average ciminal's morals may be superior to those of Gina Rinehart & Clive Palmer.

Hi David,

Gosh, there was I thinking that a person is completely innocent of any offense until proven guilty :)

Criminals need parliamentary representation too, so (at least, until he is found guilty) perhaps Mr Thomson could be brought back into the Labor fold and given a position as a junior minister, to promote the concerns of this neglected minority, with Customs as an extra 'responsibility'.

Cheers,

Joe

Belly,

Nearly everyone here gives their favourite pollies a nick nanm even you. Lee Rhiannon March Hare, I call TA the Mad Monk, and just the other day I referred to JG as the Bimbo, got to have balance. Bob Brown copped plenty of name calling on here. Don't worry when it comes to gutter politics Labor can give as good as it gets. If SM posts reference to "kiddy fiddlers" just post back Milton's doing fine, he is now convener of the Long Bay branch of the ALP. I go easy on Tommo just calling him a grub, Can you give me your assessment of BH, please.

Paul you can bet, every thing you own the little grub is not leading an ALP branch, he will be kept well away from the criminals with class as they do not like such as he.
I think we should give one another a miss mate.
You seem to think my contempt and opinions of your party are slings aimed at you.
Unfortunately bloke I think much worse than that about them.
Lee? every thing I detest!
I note your support for SM, shake my head at loudmouths in put, wait for Thomson and his partners in crime to share a cell with the little grub.
Labor, for the first time in 12 months, is selling its actions!swimming up hill in a sewage out fall and still making ground!
Abbott is helping another two months and his fear stricken team will trample him.
So its ok to say we are kiddy fiddlers?
Criminals?
Enjoy your seat at the feet of SM.

Belly,

I have a rather thick skin and I don't take what you say as a personal attack on me. Much of what you post I agree with.
"Thomson and his partners in crime to share a cell with the little grub." Of course you rightly detest MO as all do. I suppose Labor will cop it for sometime to come, due to a few bad apples. I admire Doug and Penny from you party along with a others. I'd have a beer with you Belly any day. The election of the Mad Monk would be a disaster but hopefully if it comes to pass then some good will come out of it. We tend sometimes to take ourselves far to seriously, those conservatives, no sense of humor.

Dear Paul 1405,

You're probably right about conservatives and
their sense of humour. However, some politicians
do have one. Here's a joke - a "golden oldie,"
that proves it:

Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott were sitting next to each
other on a flight from Sydney to Canberra. Tony
leans over to Julia and asks if she would like to play
a fun game. Julia just wants to take a nap so she
politely declines and turns towards the window to catch
a few winks.

Tony persists and says the game is really easy and a lot of
fun. He explains, "I ask you a question, and if you don't know
the answer you pay me $5, and vice-versa. Again, Julia
politely declines and turns to get some sleep.

Tony, now somewhat agitated says, "Okay, if you don 't know
the answer you pay me $5 and if I don't know it - I will pay
you $50."

This catches Julia's attention. She knows from experience
with Tony in parliament that there will be no end to this
torment unless she plays. So Julia agrees to the game.

Tony asks the first question. "How much is the GST on a
loaf of bread?" Julia doesn't say a word, reaches into her
wallet, pulls out $5 and hands it to Tony.

Now it's Julia's turn. She asks Tony, "What hops, carries
its young in a pouch, and flies?"

Tony looks at Julia with a puzzled frown. He takes out his
laptop computer and searches all his references then
frustrated he emails his pals in the Liberal Party - all to
no avail.

After over an hour Tony wakes up Julia and hands her $50.
Julia takes the $50 and turns away to get back to sleep.

Tony who's more than a little miffed wakes Julia up and
asks, "Well, what IS the answer?"

Without a word, Julia reaches into her wallet and hands Tony
$5 and goes back to sleep.

Good morning Paul and Lexi, loved it Lexi thanks.
Paul I love a laugh, and yes sometimes agree with you.
Now if we ever have that beer it will not be a session, those days are gone for me type 2 sugar.
I as you understand,am a long term warrior for my party, because I think they are the best in a sometimes bad mob.
I think back at whole lots of rats/grubs in our ranks.
And blame a thought pattern that took a proud word from our formation days,and made it FILTHY!, solidarity!
Some hiding behind that foul word over looked MO, an ex minister of police, sex offenders against CHILDREN! why? how? I grieve AT THE THOUGHT OF THEM.
Paul remember my posts in the 12 months before the SOLIDARITY CRIMINALS MURDERED my NSW government?
My predictions it would be so?
So no claim of Halos for my team, much to do.
I can not, in truth ever support your team, right now a truly CONSTRUCTIVE team attempting to grow,to be the alternative to Labor, could gain much ground.
By re looking at Labors tax breaks for small business,demanding poky reform as a trade off.
Let 4.000 Long term refugees in Malaysia come here , picked to come, and stall boat arrivals.
But I hate waste!
Your team isolates its self from main stream Australians,then praises its self for it!
Picks Lee that anti Jewish reject from every party she ever joined and tells us it is a good move?
Lexis joke is funny, brother yours gave me more giggles,all the best.

Nice one Lexi, here's an oldie

The Governor General, the Prime Minister, a Priest and a boy scout are on a flight from Sydney to Canberra when the plane develops engine trouble. The pilot make the announcement "Sorry passengers, engine trouble, we are going to crash, grab your parachutes jump and save yourselves!" Unfortunate the 4 passengers realise they only have 3 chutes. The GG exclaims "I am the head of the nation,I must be saved." The GG grabs a parachute and jumps out. The PM exclaims "I am the brains of the nation, I must be saved." The PM grabs a parachute and jumps out. The priest say's to the boy scout "Son, there is only on parachute left, your young and I'm old, you have it." The boy scout replies "No father, you have it, I'll be right.......the brains of the nation just jumped out with my haversack!"

Dear Paul1405,

Thanks for the oldie, and for confirming
my point:

MPs, Pollies, Opposition Leaders -
some things are better intelligent!

Paul that takes place after the next election.
Abbott's flight while short will look interesting.
He is practicing flight every day arms flapping and I want to be there.

Belly, do you remember when Andrew Peacock was opposition leader, and when interviewed he would often say in a very deep and foreboding voice, "THIS IS A VERY, SERIOUS MATTER" and the interviewer would reply "But Mr. Peacock, no one is taking the matter very seriously, except YOU!" Peacock would reply "YES, QUITE SO, BUT THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER" I got a laugh out of old Peacock when he would say that, his favourite line "THIS IS A VERY, SERIOUS MATTER" I'm sure he applied that line to everything, even if his secretary forgot to put sugar in his cup of tea, he would tell her "THIS IS A VERY, SERIOUS MATTER". LOL.

I remember Paul his love life was interesting.
His film star romance.
Now be careful but Billy Mackie Sneddon.
His [ex Liberal leader] death was different, can you tell me why?
Who was that film star.
And Sir John Grey Gorton [ loverly bloke ex Liberal PM]
What star was he linked to after a stage door visit.

Belly,

Shirley McLaine, and Dame Edith Evans, respectively.

Cheers,

Joe

Belly without looking it up I'll try BS died with his pants down and the woman JG was on with was an Ansley Gotto (name like that).

Nearly right loudmouth.
Gotto gets a mention but no Sneddon died with his rain coat on and it was not raining, that is the last hint.
Liza going to mess the spelling up, Minelly daughter of Judy garland ex of grandson of the Tenterfeild saddler his name was?
http://www.gloucesteradvocate.com.au/news/national/national/general/abbott-let-loose-the-dogs-says-slippers-exwife/2577673.aspx.
Back to the subject, lets be linked to honesty.
This link, about a person I never liked much.
Reminds me about Oakshot, much liked by his supporters.
And Windsor, both independents one for over 20 years one about 10, and the pure hate they confront.
Judge me as you wish, but history will damn many in Parliament today, Gillard too.
But it is my view no one more than Tony Abbott.
I offer the link, from a woman with no need to lie.
As evidence Liberals too know how to hate.
Paul what ALP Minister was forced out because of the *teddy Bear incident*

Again Belly no research was it Al Grassby and the Teddy Bear. A very conservative dresser was the Old Al. LOL.
Belly it has been my pleasure to have met 4 men who were PM, Billy McMahon, at Sydney Airport one Sunday afternoon, when he was PM. I was catching a flight to Melbourne and he was returning to Canberra with a group, far more informal days for the PM then. He was standing about 10m away "I said g'day PM." and the bloke walked straight over, shook hands started asking where I was headed, I asked him about his day and where he was off too. I must say a very pleasant bloke to chat with for about 2 minutes, I think Mcmanon was a genuinely nice person.
Malcolm Fraser at the Royal Easter Show in Sydney after the PM had inspected some cattle, Stepped out of the roped off area where the cattle were, he was in there with 3 or 4 other suits. Again not being backward at coming forward its "G'day Mr Fraser what ya think of NSW cattle," He was quick to reply with something like "fine animals" I said "you too your time looking them over" he said "they are excellent cattle they deserve a good look," I couldn't help myself "Any Labor voters amongst them?" Heis reply with a grin "I don't think so."
I'll tell you about Gough amd Bob later, I met them at Labor things Gough was PM, Bob was to become one later. I wonder what it would be like sitting around a dinner table with the 4 of them. For drinks Billy would order OJ, Mal a gin and tonic, Gough a glass of red and Bob a VB (he's had 2 before the other arrived).

I am quite proud to have sat with 4 all ALP and over my shoulder a photo shows our greats Bob Carr big Kim and some minor players
Been in the company before and after of the silver bodgy and the much loved K Rudd, he unlike some has a personality.
Know our next ALP Prime Minister Bill Shorten, he has every skill K Rudd has Given the time he will rise the the high poll numbers KR did.
No not the answer, look for a customs storm in a tea cup.
Said to have tried to get a teddy bear and colored TV past customs without paying duty!
Shows we once had accountability at least.
Who did one Minister have a kind of love for? and what was his name, hint lead a march in Melbourne.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/leaders-neck-and-neck-in-plunge-to-bottom-of-unpopularity-pit-20120603-1zq50.html
Unpleasant? come let us be honest, we are a lost mob.
At least our leaders stand on the brink of fixing the boat refugee problems.
The thought of living under either is seeing a re sale chance for the boats at least, as thinking Australians think about returning them,as refugees from a Parliament without a back bone.
One both sides are content to see the worst leaders in our country's history.

My detractors, within the ALP and out side it.
Those who think I should remain silent
Sweep our wrongs under the carpet.
Do you understand?
The only way back is a new broom? one unafraid to remove all the problems not hide them.
And are you aware, right now a government of real achievements, is dead in the water, sails torn and never to be reset, while Gillard leads.
Abbott! surely a man without talent, honesty, trust worthiness, is way out in front.
I serve my party, always, if humble pie is the dish?
It is what was ordered
ALP! time for all good men to come to the aid of the party not them selves, take my reputation from me, but not my party.
It must not be power brokers toy.