Well, we're into a new year and once again April 25, ANZAC Day is soon to be upon us.

Each passing ANZAC Day, I wonder whether we're really paying the form of profound respect for this special day, that we're supposed too.

To me at least, we seem to be drifting inexorably toward a day more for celebration, almost a carnival atmosphere. Rather than engaging in a quiet, more reflective veneration for the many servicemen and women who never came home.

We see the various parades in our cities and towns getting larger, yet the number of eligible Veterans marching, are significantly decreasing. This is despite the supplications of the State RSL Branch's, imploring those people who are so engaged, not to do so.

Perhaps I'm wrong, very wrong. Is it a day for celebration ? Or should it be eternally consigned to that, of a day for fervent and deep reverence. Or, could it be both ?

We have attended the Dawn service at the War Memorial here in
Melbourne for a couple of years. It was very moving. The last post
being played brought chiils down my spine. I don't think that
this should be a time for celebration. It should be a time
for reflection, Thanks, and hope, that we don't have another
war in our future. We owe a debt to those who gave their lives.
We can only hope that no one will have to do so again - for this
country.

Dear Lexi, 

The Melbourne dawn service is indeed special. We would make our way up as a family from South Melbourne and I especially found the subdued crowds walking quietly toward the shrine quite moving.

I remember being fearful the service after the Cronulla Riots we might have seen some unwelcome displays of ultra-nationalism but recall only seeing one flag draped 'Cronulla Style' around a youth and even he removed it when we got close.

I am growing to accept the changes this generation are making toward the occasion. I'm not entirely comfortable with it but it could be age related.

To travel through the small country towns and see how many young men the First World War stripped from those communities is sobering.

And because our fallen lay often in mass graves in far off lands these simple shrines were the only physical place people could go the remember them, a tomb stone for all those inscribed there on.

The ANZAC day speeches between the wars were about the futility and cost of conflict. The nationalism and celebration is more a recent part of the day.

Yet if this means those shrines are remembered,  respected and cared for into the future I will live with any misgivings.

<< Is it a day for celebration ? Or should it be eternally consigned to that, of a day for fervent and deep reverence. Or, could it be both ? >>

O sung wu, I think both. Well, not so much a celebration as a day of happy commemoration. If it has a celebratory atmosphere which draws in young people, that can only be a good thing, I think.

If it does get a little inappropriately too celebratory, well, no big deal, if it is attracting lots of young folk.

They are getting involved and learning about our national history and our war heroes. And that has got to be a whole lot better than some stodgy old banal parade that is a complete anathema to younger generations.

It’s all good. In fact it is wonderful that ANZAC day is such a big event on our national calendar.

celibration..hardly
more like sell flags and inebriation

celibrate war?
celibrate what..sending children to die in futile wars
so wealthy people can gain rebuilding contracts

walk arround the canberra memorials someday
in the dark of night..they are stages..to sepperate follies
but someone got good cash to put them up[soon they will get a blwer cleanup

be seen on the news..then return back to
their totum-istic yelling..into the emtyness
just like the lost children..blown into bits..in futile wars

buried in other lands
while memorialised in concrete and stainless steel
gravel and dirt..ammoung the gum trees..of canberra's memorabilia to murder.

if its killing..by order
its still murder

think how you explain to god
the taking of an others life?

celab-ration?
yea right

an excuse for a bbq
and a little bit of overtaxed grog
nice colours..neat mind numbing music
now go off wit ya..[private/grunt]..go off an die..[its easy if you try]

if the bullits didnt get ya[ww1]
the birdflue did..trenchrot..its great mate
see the world..through a mist of agent orange..

sellibration
not till govt..fixes all outstanding debts
so many killed..preparing for war..[and govt tells them]..go away

everything from f111 fueltanks poisenings
to mustard gas..to naplam...to nuke testing
payup..govt

pay the rent
how many more must die..betrayed by their own govt

o sung wo Gday, it never was a day of celebration.
Remembrance is the term.
Csteele, well you had to introduce one side of the Cronulla thing, I am not surprised.
It and indeed the wearing of our flag around the shoulders has nothing to do with this day.
What is it about that ? why is it unlike the Lebanese flag on cars?
My t shirts have part of our flag, America wears shorts shirts and even shoes with its flag.
Tennis matches see migrants, well third generation ,wear other country's flags,and fight in the stands.
Do not single my country out for being as EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS.
ANZAC day will not see me ringing Bells blowing Whistles.
It will see quite contemplation of those who died, those who wish they had,
and just what this country would have been if all the dead war victims had lived to make it greater.
I value Migration, and am sure and certain, most migrants value this country and the things that bought them here.
I find it impossible,totally, to ignore manufactured links to the mentioned event and this day of remembrance.

not so much a celebration as a day of happy commemoration.
Ludwig,
That has a more cultural ring to it & appropriate. Perhaps some re-enactment could be an eye-opening reminder for those whose imagination fails to portray a picture of the horror that is war instead of the show-like presentation on TV.

ANZAC Day is a day of showing respect and rememberance of the sacrifices our service made for us inthe various conflicts they were engaged in. This is why it begins with a dawn service that reminds us of the dawn landing at Galipoli. Other services at held throughout the morning.

later it is also a day of reunion where old mates and aquaintances can meet up and yarn. This is especially so for exservice personel who take the opportunity to catch up with those they served with. The young do learn from this and see the history and comrardary of the service personel. I do not think the fallen would want us to remember in any other way.

This has always been so in my lifetime and is just as relevant today as it has always been. However I see the numbers of exservice personel deminishing and that makes me glad that there is less numbers of our young having to engage in conflicts. The highest numbers, of course, were in WW1 and WW2.

It is a very important part of our tradition and culture to pay respect to our service personel. Also to celebrate the freedoms they achieved from which we benefit. One does not have to look far beyond our shore toappreciate how fortunate we are today.

Long may the Anzac tradition continue.

let A=ozzz
let NZ=new zealand

i know what a zac is
i heard of anzus....being dead
so i googled it

http://www.google.com/search?q=anzus+dead?

googled anzac dead
and found a site..on the last anzac
and it auto disconected
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://anzac.homestead.com/campbell.html&sa=U&ei=G0J2T5TJF6uRiQeD0uHZDg&ved=0CBoQFjAB&sig2=6JkAomARfz3LJwC94eo7fw&usg=AFQjCNEHt7C2b9eWyVkdodXhLahhE5405w

i feel most dont got a clue...[but howard used it cleverly]

no doudt juliar will find ways to keep up the lie
but war is over..[it was never worth dying over]
but heck a day off is a day off

but timming is everything
lets talk of the insanity..that got thousands of aussies and kiwis murderd..for a folly*

rest in peace
if this kills the idolitry of war
your youthfull deaths..may not have been in vain

get educated..not hype-notised
what are we remembering...?..[the glitz..not the gore]

how big..is this zac day..through-out the world?
[citation needed]

from wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallipoli_Campaign

The main landings were made..at V Beach,and at W Beach,

At Cape Helles V Beach..the troops could disembark
directly via ramps..to the shore.

The Royal Dublin Fusiliers
would land at V Beach..from open boats.

At W Beach..the Lancashire/Fusiliers..also landed*in open boats .

On both beaches..the Ottoman/defenders..*were in a position to inflict appalling..*casualties..on the landing infantry.!

The troops
emerging..one by one..from the sally ports..
on the River Clyde..*presented perfect targets..*to the machine guns in the..Seddülbahir fort.

ASSININE ASINATION!

Out of the first 200 soldiers to disembark,
only 21 men made it onto the beach.[26]

As at Anzac,..the Ottoman defenders were too few
to force the British off the beach;..

*however,*they furiously defended..
*every inch of...*their*..soil.

On the morning of 25 April 1915.. out of ammunition and left with nothing but bayonets..to meet the attackers on the slopes..leading up from the beach..to the heights of Chunuk Bair,

the commander of the 19th Division,Lieutenant-Colonel Mustafa Kemal, issued his most famous order..*to the 57th Infantry Regiment:[27]

I do not order you..to fight,!
I order you..*to die.!

'"In the time which passes..until we die,
other troops and commanders..can come forward and take our places.""

Every man of the Ottoman 57th Infantry Regiment
was either killed in action..or wounded..
and,

as a sign of respect..
there is no 57th Regiment..in the modern Turkish army.[28]


.At W Beach,..thereafter known as Lancashire Landing,..the Lancashires were able to overwhelm..*the defences*>>!

despite their dreadful losses
600 killed or wounded,..out of a total strength of 1,000.

The battalions which landed at V Beach
suffered about 70% casualties.

The Ottoman platoon..beat back several determined attacks
on their*..hilltop position,..the defiant defender*s..eventually disengaging..COLLUDED alied [all lied]..INVASION>>under cover of darkness.

After the landings,so few remained/from the Dublin Fusiliers and Munster Fusiliers..that they were amalgamated into one unit, "The Dubsters"."""

WHAT NEVER HEARD OF EM?

Only one Dubliner officer survived the landing;
overall,of the 1,012 Dubliners who landed,"""

do they

march "anzac day"..to this day
in the other allies lands?

did they ever?

only 11..would survive
the entire Gallipoli campaign..unscathed...

OUG,
I usually do not read or respond to your posts which I find are difficult to follow. However on this occassion you said."but war is over..[it was never worth dying over]
but heck a day off is a day off"

Is that all you see in Anzac day, a day off?

Would you rather have had us surrender to the agressors so that we became enslaved to them?

Me, I am glad that our forebears thought our freedom worth dying for.

look at your words choice banjo

""Would you rather have had us surrender
to the agressors*....lol...so that we became!...enslaved to them?

have you read the link?
we agggressed/trangressed AGAINST THEM

thus we became 'enslaved' to them

dont do the crime
if ya cant do the time

but heck
the wurds your using
mate..it just aint so

is that...[quoted]
all you learned from all them early morings...[with ya mates]

its not a coin toss
its about govt sending kids to be murded
then drunken yobbo's waving flags..while racists plan their next assult on arabs...[ottomans]

anzac day is a faulse flag/red flag
black flag..[not a black swan event

if we could/not then face the truth
...why not now?

cause pr and spin
has dun its thing

Not only must we see ANZAC Day as a reminder what can happen when we just go along with what Governments tell us, we must also see it as a clear indicator what can happen if we don't take action to prevent. To simply wait for something to happen to us & then take action is simply too late.
We must exercise foresight & caution before we open the door sufficiently for some undesirable to get their foot in. In any case innocents will cop the brunt.
We must not ridicule or dismiss ANZAC Day. Those who do should spend time in Somalia or Afghanistan or live in a religion dominated country.
It's a poor attitude to bite the hand that feeds you & keeps you alive in comfort.
ANZAC DAY is extremely relevant.

The interment of the Unknown Soldier 1993

The Unknown Australian Soldier whom we are interring today was one of those who, by his deeds, proved that real nobility and grandeur belongs, not to empires and nations, but to the people on whom they, in the last resort, always depend.

That is surely at the heart of the Anzac story, the Australian legend which emerged from the war. It is a legend not of sweeping military victories so much as triumphs against the odds, of courage and ingenuity in adversity. It is a legend of free and independent spirits whose discipline derived less from military formalities and customs than from the bonds of mateship and the demands of necessity. It is a democratic tradition, the tradition in which Australians have gone to war ever since.

This Unknown Australian is not interred here to glorify war over peace; or to assert a soldier’s character above a civilian’s; or one race or one nation or one religion above another; or men above women; or the war in which he fought and died above any other war; or one generation above any that has been or will come later.

The Unknown Soldier honours the memory of all those men and women who laid down their lives for Australia. His tomb is a reminder of what we have lost in war and what we have gained.

We have lost more than 100,000 lives, and with them all their love of this country and all their hope and energy.

We have gained a legend: a story of bravery and sacrifice and, with it, a deeper faith in ourselves and our democracy, and a deeper understanding of what it means to be Australian.

It is not too much to hope, therefore, that this Unknown Australian Soldier might continue to serve his country - he might enshrine a nation’s love of peace and remind us that, in the sacrifice of the men and women whose names are recorded here, there is faith enough for all of us.

The Hon. P. J. Keating MP Prime Minister of Australia

Oug,
You said,"we agggressed/trangressed AGAINST THEM"

You should catch up on your history of WW1 and WW2. Europe was invaded and there was a couple of things that prevented Aus from being invaded in WW2. Firstly the Chinese kept about a million enemy troops busy in china and the battle of the coral sea stopped the enemy from setting foot on our soil.

You, of course, can put whatever spin you like on it, but I have the greatest admiration for the courage of our service personel and the tribulations and sacrifices they made for us. That is what I honour on Anzac Day. How many died fighting and as slaves in Europe and how many of ours died on the Burma railway and other places?

Lest we forget

lest we forget indeed banjo
war reparations/the keiser/bolcvhovics
depressions santions..and so much more forced japan/getmany...into war

its not as simple
as history likes to teach us

you should listen to todays big idea
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/browse/video_popup.htm?vidURL=/tv/bigideas/stories/2012/03/26/3461236-mediarss-full.xml&vidTitle=Paul Ham and Kim Barker: Collateral Damage&vidLength=Full

revealing how govt went after citi-zen-ry..[as a matter of policy]
half a million japs..in a few last months..[lol leaving military tragets alone]...

as a matter of 'the goodguys'..policy*

""Collateral damage..that chilling euphemism
for civilian casualties in any warzone,..anywhere in the world.

Taking part in this discussion is Paul Ham historian and journalist, who wrote a brilliant book on Vietnam and whose latest work is Hiroshima Nagasaki.

He’s joined on stage by former foreign correspondent for the Chicago Tribune, Kim Barker, who’s filed from the warzones of Iraq and Afghanistan. Her recent book The Taliban Shuffle is a personal account of her time in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

This is a discussion about military strategies from World War 2 through to our most recent conflicts in Afghanistan and the deliberately planned or unplanned civilian casualties.

Paul Ham is especially good in his areas of expertise, on Vietnam and the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in the Second World War, about the deliberate killing of huge numbers..*of civilians..*to devastate the enemy.

Both Barker and Ham are even handed in their analysies
all sides in all conflicts..engage in these strategies.!*!I!

Defence Correspondent..for the West Australian newspaper, Joseph Catanzaro, moderates this session."""

no comment/yet
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2012/03/26/3461236.htm

That post csteele is in the true spirit of ANZAC DAY.
A day of remembrance and a time to do honor to others.
A time too, to remember the horrors of war.
OUG, sorry, but in one line of your posts above you said you did not have a clue.
I agree, the word game you play makes reading some thing like swimming in treacle.

context is everything belly

''OUG, sorry,..but in one line
of your posts above...you said you did not have a clue.''

cant find it
its in case you cant find things that i quote them
[quote]

I agree, the word game you play
makes reading some thing like swimming in treacle.
[/quote]
the last was near a full quote

didnt note the swimming in treakle thing..[who said that]
but suggest..that might be..artistic/licence

never the less it holds a semblance of truth
but i will refuse to admit to that

i will admit..i hate war mongering
whatever its reasoning..

and if a parade..aint clapping 'the good guys'
that killed others..in their own lands..[ie killers]
then just what is it..'just war''[no such beast!]

all war is murder
all who war..monger..are tared by the same guilt blame shame

proest all you like
but a good man dont kill..[no one]
the only who came out with honour..are the consientious objectors

who when called..to murder brothers
refused 'orders'..to learn the art of murder..in war

only the strong resisted
the weak killed..of fear they be killed

you recall that highlight of the war
when peace came at xmass...that was a brief bit of sanity

war is insane
warmongering is a sickness
gloryfying war...that takes gullability

plus just a tinge of racist overtone..
or fanatic loyalism..[national pride]
to go in-to..*others homes..to kill

Dear Belly,

Thought you might have objected to the line;

"This Unknown Australian is not interred here to glorify war over peace; or to assert a soldier’s character above a civilian’s; or one race or one nation or one religion above another; or men above women; or the war in which he fought and died above any other war; or one generation above any that has been or will come later."

It was precisely the sentiment I was trying to convey in the previous thread.

His following line nails it for me.

"The Unknown Soldier honours the memory of all those men and women who laid down their lives for Australia. His tomb is a reminder of what we have lost in war and what we have gained."

Remembering only glories gained, or even mateships forged is only telling half the Anzac story. One must dwell also on the losses we suffered and as you said "the horrors of war".

OUG is doing just that. There would have been many a good union man in the Australian ranks at Gallipoli who would have been blood red with anger at the lives lost in a poorly thought out and executed campaign, one remembered for the poor leadership from upperclass twits who though nothing of sending good men to die in futile charges, one that resulted in the slaughter of thousands of our young men.

If only engaging in war as a complete last resort is not the legacy of their deaths then we dishonor them. We most certainly were the invaders/transgressors on that day and those who would get upset at that fact I feel need to ask themselves why.

There was no glory in the objectives of the campaign itself, as UOG points out those glories belong mainly to the other side, what mattered was that the sacrifices made by Australian troops were for each other and because of a pride in a new country. In the end the sense of shared loss among the loved ones at home, now hardly mentioned, was probably as defining for us a nation.

Japan went to war because the USA was limiting it's access to energy and trade.We warned the USA that they were about to attack Pearl Harbour.

They are currently trying to limit China's access to oil in Uganda and Sudan.We have sent special forces to Africa to implement Western Imperialism.WW3 is looming and the nutters are on our side.

csteele no I think you look for things I do not think in my ANZAC DAY thoughts.
I very much agree with every word.
And think it becomes the best post in this thread.
In my youth, bush camps by construction ext,I learned much by reading the history's of wars.
I am not unaware the German and British Royal family's, hence one family, needlessly started ww1.
Or the part jingoism played.
It does not lessen the fact, those dieing did so for us.
A day of first remembrance, those who celebrate do so against the culture and wishes of this country's RSL.
Australia, folk like you tell us, is a multi cultural country.
Then do not challenge my right to my culture.
I would rather your contribution, one I have already said is the best, than the side stepping rubbish we are seeing.
Wars have taken place, the deal are in their graves,this day is remembrance of them and the suffering.
If we forget history we are bound to let it happen today.
Less we Forget.

belly quote..""Then do not challenge my right to my culture.""

your culture..as a nuionist
your culture as a man[as husband father...ausie..brit jap jew?]

no one is challinging your right to culture

but war is barbaric

if the uniform you...comes into my home blastying as you come
throwing bombs unseen from the sky..[killing murdering plundering bombing civilisation[whole cultures to bits]

THAT AINT CULTURE!
anyone should be allowed to have

its as far from culture
as you can get

get it
war aint culture
any cult that sellibrates war
glorifies uncooth cultural destruction

bombing london
back to the stone age..isnt what civil cultures should be doing!

not just london

same for any other culture/city
activly collusively deceptivly sneakilly..being bombed
back into the stone age..[that only make cultural rage]

you dont civilise via
civil nor uncivil war*

but war is barbaric,
OUG,
We know, it's the religious who fight for God (God knows Why ?) and bless the soldiers & the guns who need to be told. No-one's succeeded in that yet after thousands of years.

OUG you must expect feedback with post like that!
No better day exists,than ANZAC DAY to remember why we should try to avoid war.
We do that, and we remember the sacrifice of those who did.
I can see no reason, for your post, this thread is about a shadow.
An idiot who put pen to paper saying MAYBE we should forget.
Increasingly you tilt at wind mills, that are not there!
Saw yet another post above so far from threads intended path it was strange.
I promised my self in this thread not to inflame, just protect a day that my ancestors maybe not yours, died for us.
I leave it now, out of respect for all the posts that added to the subject.
And to avoid the few that tryed to drag it down with unrelated unneeded comment.

ANZAC day is being perverted into a fantasy, a celebration that all is good and that we can blithely deny responsibility for what our nation does. People died in wars because our governments GOT IT WRONG.

Those people die in hope that we survivors would at least do better, take responsibility for what Canberra does, watch what decisions our Lords & Masters make on our behalf, and where necessary intercede.

One example close to my heart is West Papua, a nation of indigenous Australians who refused to aid the Imperial Japanese forces, a nation which aided the Americans who landed there in 1944; a nation which Canberra in 1962 helped to illegally trade to Indonesian rule by supporting UN General Assembly resolution 1752 (XVII). The RSL in 1962 tried to speak against it but a stooge lied to the League saying there was nothing that could be done to help our WW-ii allies.

- - Out of respect for the fallen and for the future they hoped to help, we should do better than pretend Canberra is a perfect; ANZAC day is the one day on which we should tell Canberra what we think, that would be a more fitting memorial.

ANZAC should be a reflection about the sacrifice that others have made to keep our personal freedoms.

yes sacrifice..such a great buzzwords
suffering saints..god want's no suffearing

i dont want some kid to die..he didnt scarifice everytghing..for me
govt stole it from him..just as govt is taxing people to death today
revenue raising for mates

colusion between mates
notice the towo big loosers of the war
japan/germany..are industrial giants...[it was to seize that industrial capactity..!]

position [out of depression]]
that your grandpop's/peers/friends/mates/lovers..died
lest we forget the homo sex...the boys club loves to keep its boys in line

yes religeons..>..are in the same insane boys club
but i love god..[and try to love his creations]..
but religeons is that staw too far

please stop thinking
that loving god mean's i gotta love religeon

religion serves evil
[for proof the concept of 'a just war']
that just dont invalidate 'thou shalt not murder'

get it yet
im not into religeon
in just into god..who is *in everything..[omni=present]

no stuff it

im not over it yet

jesus died for our sins
kids dying for our security
is the same!..insane perversion

that YE DO TO THE LEAST
ye did to him!

how thick the warmongers be

One under god sometimes can see through nonsense. They died for our freedoms? How did it serve the cause of freedom to put one fourth of the world’s land surface under British control? How did it serve freedom to put Boer families and blacks in concentration camps where many of them died? How did it serve freedom when the British fought two opium wars so they could continue to sell opium to the Chinese. At that time one seventh of the income of the British government was from the opium trade.

We can remember those who protested the wars. We can remember those who kept us out of war. Bertrand Russell went to prison in the UK for opposing WW1. E. V. Debs went to prison in the US for the same reason. Emma Goldman was deported from the US. She protested WW1. President Eisenhower who led the Allied forces in western Europe during WW2 made peace in Korea and kept the US from getting involved in the Vietnamese war. Unfortunately Kennedy and Johnson put the US in war there.

At the onset of WW1 the British wanted to involve poets and writers to support the thrust for war. Thomas Hardy did not go along. He wrote:

The Man He Killed

Had he and I but met
By some old ancient inn,
We should have set us down to wet
Right many a nipperkin!

But ranged as infantry,
And staring face to face,
I shot at him as he at me,
And killed him in his place.

I shot him dead because--
Because he was my foe,
Just so: my foe of course he was;
That's clear enough; although

He thought he'd 'list, perhaps,
Off-hand like--just as I--
Was out of work--had sold his traps--
No other reason why.

Yes; quaint and curious war is!
You shoot a fellow down
You'd treat, if met where any bar is,
Or help to half a crown.

Let us remember those who protested war, kept us out of war and pointed out the evil of war.

continued

continued

Wilfred Owen died fighting for England in WW1. Before he died he realized the horror and senselessness. He recognised the lie in DULCE ET DECORUM EST - the first words of a Latin saying (taken from an ode by Horace). The words were widely understood and often quoted at the start of WW1. They mean "It is sweet and right." The full saying ends the poem: Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori - it is sweet and right to die for your country. In other words, it is a wonderful and great honour to fight and die for your country.

http://www.warpoetry.co.uk/owen1.html contains Owen’s poem together with the notes on it:

DULCE ET DECORUM EST(1)

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares(2) we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest(3) began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots(4)
Of tired, outstripped(5) Five-Nines(6) that dropped behind.
Gas!(7) Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets(8) just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime(9) . . .
Dim, through the misty panes(10) and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering,(11) choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud(12)
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest(13)
To children ardent(14) for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.(15)

Wilfred Owen
8 October 1917 - March, 1918

Dear Belly,

You wrote; 

"It does not lessen the fact, those dieing did so for us."

I'm pretty sure dying for you and I crossed the mind of very few of the Gallipoli ANZACs. 

Most of them were in it for the adventure, the travel, and the pay. Our lads got six times the pay of the British soldier even though a third of ours were born in England.

You must remember lot were I think the only volunteer army that served at Gallipoli. Plus this was the first time we stayed together as a force. In the past such as during the Boer War our men were usually hived off to other units.

That a volunteer army was able to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest through that horror and prove to be an effective fighting force whose men looked after each other should be something that we at this distance can be proud of and take inspiration from.

But dying for you and I?

Anyway...

Memoriam Notice 1923

FOTHERGILL In loving memory of our darling son and brother (Jack) who was killed in action in Gallipoli, 25th April 1915. Eight long years since you were laid in your lonely grave, darling Jack. The world has never been the same. No one knows how much I miss you, plucked like a flower in bloom, so bright, so young, so loving. It’s sad but true, the best are the first to die. Darling Jack, if only I could see your grave, I would die happy (inserted by your sorrowing parents, brother and sisters, R & I Fothergill).
The Argus (Melbourne) 25 April 1923

ANZAC is not about killing it is about the love that was shown by our boys in protecting those they loved, and freedoms and values we enjoy. In WWI and WW11 many of us had relatives in Europe whose lives were being threatened. It is true many individual operations were flawed but that is the blood and guts of conflict.

ANZAC is not about blame, or the blood and guts, but the attempt by our loved ones to protect our lives. In their attempt they lost their lives. "We will remember them!". Those that focus on the the WAR miss the point of ANZAC. The cry in not, "we will remember the war". Those that cannot grasp the commitment of our boys, perhaps would prefer to hail Hitler, ot serve the Emperor of Japan.

I had banished myself from this thread.
The post above mine bought me back, well said.
I do not celebrate war not glorify it.
I know, understand, if no one fought those two ww ones we would not be free.
And I know that with certainty, some want to blacken our remembrance.
I question this, how can any culture be respected, if ours too is not.
OUG, it ends, no more,others find your posts cute funny,informative as David f has.
I am no longer prepared to be kind.
Aware you tell us, you are proud to be different, I can not understand why haveing freed your Dutch ancestors you persist in talking of war mongers when few wanted to fight a war.
Maybe some day the aggressors will win, and write history,but ANZAC day is nothing like some charge it here
less we forget.

Dear Belly,

Some wars actually have preserved our freedom. It would be horrible to think of being ruled by the Nazis or Imperial Japan.

However, Anzac Day lumps the wars that have been necessary with those which have been fought for economic interests, chauvinism or other unworthwhile reasons.

I would like to differentiate the wars that should never have been fought by remembering those who have opposed such wars.

bellicaust/quote..is..""Aware you tell us,
you are proud to be different""

i dont say so with words
if people take that from them..thats their issue

belly i like you have life experience
but little formail education...im more intrested in what a word MEANS..that how its spelled...i know all the glory..hides that truelly gory!

i wish
all those MUTILATED..IN WAR
MARCHED WITHOUT THEIR PROSTESIS..

crawled
without their legs...the whole parade!

took out their fake jaws...fake eyes cheeks etc
dont hide the scars..let the watchers se the real cost of war!

[mate you got mates that 'pretend '..to look normal
yet the war scares are there..BE PROUD..reveal your baqttle wounds

one third vietnam dudes are dead
the rest homelss addicted..missfits

SHOW THE TRUE COST MR BELL!

""I can not understand
why haveing freed your Dutch ancestors
you persist in talking of war mongers...*when few wanted to fight a war.""

me either
if you save 'me'..i will thank you
my kids wont

""Maybe some day the aggressors will win,"""

lol

""and write history,""

lol

""but ANZAC day is nothing like...*some charge it to be..*here
less we forget.""

yes mr bell
but what is it we are not going to forget?*?*?

i think many have forgotten!*!*!
many still bear its HIDDEN cost

[just in visions lost]
let not the WHOLE..of this sordid story..be easilly over/glossed

war is hell
peace not pieces

I regret rejoining the thread, David f you have a point but it is short on substance.
It truly is you know the day started to remember ANZAC COVE and that landing.
Hence dawn service and date.
WW2 was included and for some time,Vietnam was not recognized .
Yet troops died there too, some conscripts.
You infer mate the day glorifies, it clearly never did.
anti war can be talked about in other threads clearly a question was asked here.
I can find no reason to try to convince OUG and have given up trying.
I will spend the day quietly,thinking about sacrifice.
And knowing, nothing we can do, will stop aggressors starting wars.
In fact what would have been the outcome in Lybia,if NATO had stood back.
Much worse than inactivity in Rwanda.

They shall grow not old
As we that are left grow old
Age shall not weary them
Nor the years condemn
At the going down of the sun
And in the morning
We will remember them
Lest We forget.

(from "For The Fallen."
Laurence Binyon).

Come on people,

There is a little too much tiptoeing around on this.

O sung wu asked a straight forward question; “Is it a day for celebration ? Or should it be eternally consigned to that, of a day for fervent and deep reverence. Or, could it be both ?”

We are here on an ideas and discussion forum and yet there is an air of not wanting to unduly upset the more frenetic of our members.

OUG is taking a perfectly legitimate stance on the futility and cost of war and the questionable celebration of its ‘glories’, imagined or otherwise.

While I’m not in lock step with all he says I’m perfectly happy to hear his perspective. And there are plenty of people who would support and echo him.

Although he needs to speak for himself I’d wager OUG would have had little issue with the first years of commemorations where the bulk of the attendees were war widows and their children, deeply mourning their losses.

We should be under no illusion that the occasion has been appropriated by successive generations. Belly’s "It does not lessen the fact, those dieing did so for us." is an example. Alec Cambell, our last Gallipoli veteran put it remarkably plainly; "I joined for adventure. There was not a great feeling of defending the Empire. I lived through it, somehow. I enjoyed some of it. I am not a philosopher. Gallipoli was Gallipoli.".

A unionist for much of his life, “Alec Campbell participated in anti-war campaigns, became active in Labor politics, joined the Fabian Society, and became State President of the Australian Railways Union. He contested an election for the Launceston City Council. After the war he worked to assist the widows and families of veterans.”
http://australianpolitics.com/news/2002/05/02-05-24a.shtml

Cont..

Cont..

There is certainly no definitive Australian Culture. Belly’s or OUG’s perception of what it is would certainly differ from mine. What we need to is be accommodating of each other’s sense of what it means to be Australian and of what ANZAC day means to us.

I’m not saying the appropriations made by Belly’s generation or mine or indeed the one underway via our youth is a bad thing, it’s just we need to guard against claims of absolute ownership and of infections of heightened nationalism. Only a long departed generation, once numbed with grief and without graves to mourn beside, have that claim.

So to address the original question yes it more than likely will end up as both commemorative and celebratory for many people. Further I feel that impediments to our newest arrivals or our oldest inhabitants being part of the occasion should be legitimately explored.

Those who feel any discussion on the subject is taboo or inappropriate should best excuse themselves.

It is only one mouse button not clicked.

Those that want to celebrate ignore Gallipoli as it was not a WIN; it was a grave yard for our finest Austraian and NZ boys. It should always be, "we will remember them!" This includes those also who have given their lives to keep us safe and free.

For those who want to celebrate war, They have lost the abhorrence of war.

Lexi,
Thanks for posting the Ode.
Just one letter "contemn" meaning in the passing of time we will not despise them. We will be eternally grateful for their sacrifice.
A common rendering is "condemn" them.

Thank you LEXI, the 'Ode' does cause me to think and reflect on those who never returned.

And those who did who, hitherto were alive and vibrant, in fact full of life and energy, they did came home, deprived of their emotions,
feelings and conscience.

But when they did return, were mere shells of themselves, with weekly attendances at the various VVCS Centres. Where we talked about anything but, Malaya, Borneo and South Vietnam; our failed marriages and friendships, lost opportunities, and the loss of being able to effectively communicate with ordinary folk. With frequent bouts of heavy drinking and the subsequent violence that accompanies it. Thus occasioned upon others who simply didn't understand what all the fuss was about ?

Yes LEXI, the Ode is a very moving piece indeed.

R.I P. David Frank........ I'll always miss you. You survived FSB 'Balmoral','Coral' and finally languished in 'Dat Do' - but dead at 52 years, of a Brain Tumour. Couldn't be 'Agent Orange' - Our Politicians told us so ?

Choosing a theme for an anthology of Australian poetry
in my final year at uni was not an easy task. Colleagues
suggested a variety of themes, from Australian women poets,
and feminist issues, to propaganda poems, protest poetry,
bush ballads, and so on. The list went on and on.
I finally decided on an anthology based on anti-war Australian
poetry. I felt that we needed new ways of thinking to cope
with the nuclear age. I felt strongly that writers with
their concern for the human condition and their special skills
with language, could enable us to imagine the horrific
reality of nuclear arms and nerve us to build an alternative
future.

One of the poems that I included in my anthology was -
"Homecoming," by Bruce Dawe. To me it represented one of the
best poems that I have read anywhere, about war. And, although
the poem deals with the various stages in the return of the
dead, specifically from Vietnam, it could be in general, from
any modern war. It is a lament for the futility of war
expressed by Bruce Dawe in the detail of the Vietnam War.
Bruce Dawe in this poem, does not accuse or blame, it is
simply an awe-inspiring statement of anguish.

Dawe's poetry has been said by some critics to "convey the
suburbs." It does convey the suburbs, not merely in its
incidents and locale but in its tone. The men who serve in
the armies and are brought home in their black bags are the
children of the suburbs, and the values they learn produce
the wars but they also create the rituals that assuage
their pain.

Dawe conveys simultaneously the pain of our existence and the hope
that makes it endurable.

Perhaps another relevance of ANZAC Day could be not only
our reverance for those who died but being faced with the question
Will there be any one left to bring home, after a Nuclear War?

Were we ever to prosecute a war with nuclear weapons...well ?

There'd be no winners, losers, or anybody left to rebuild or occupy territory. Our water, crops, domestic animals, agriculture, everything that we've become accustomed to, would be affected.

What would remain of our army, would only be used to 'marshall' (similar to that of sheep) what's left of the population to areas, where some suitable sustanence may be found, that may be determined fit for human consumption...

I believe ANZAC Day would cease to matter. In it's place we'd more likely celebrate an occasion, where someone found a new source of fresh water. Free of nuclear contamination.

There'd be no RSL, probably no Government as we know it ? Humankind would be at best, tenuous. Our Church's would become havens for those without minimal accommodation, or food. A place where the 'affected' would receive some succour, before they died of radiation poisoning.

I don't believe the 'powers' fully appreciate the horrific sequel for those who were 'unfortunate' enough to survive, an all out nuclear war.

Thank you LEXI for your most thoughtfully written piece.

For the Fallen

Laurence Binyon

With proud thanksgiving, a mother for her children,

mourns for her dead across the sea.

Flesh of her flesh they were, spirit of her spirit,

Fallen in the cause of the free.

Solemn the drums thrill; Death august and royal

Sings sorrow up into immortal spheres,

There is music in the midst of desolation

And a glory that shines upon our tears.

They went with songs to the battle, they were young,

Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.

They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted;

They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall not grow old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years contemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning

We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;

They sit no more at familiar tables of home;

They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;

They sleep beyond the foam.

But where our desires are and our hopes profound,

Felt as a well-spring that is hidden from sight,

To the innermost heart of their own land they are known.

As the stars are known to the Night;

As the stars that shall be bright when we are dust,

Moving in marches upon the heavenly plain;

As the stars that are starry in the time of our darkness,

To the end, to the end, they remain.

On Anzac Day when we remember the fallen and honour all who have worn a uniform for Australia or her allies,
please seek out a Vietnam veteran or from recent conflicts and say "Thank you mate!"

From verse I have collected.

On the New England highway north of Newcastle a memorial to the fallen in Vietnam can be found.
At night sadly some true filth can be found there.
I am from the era, my age and birth day came out of the barrel.
I tried so very hard to get in, while others did the opposite.
I failed, one eye weaker, no other test ever failed me?
Mates went, some never returned, some did, but not as the person that went.
Not so long ago one, a mate who served in the regular army there, lived along side me.
He never fully came back,and it may be agent orange that has given him cancer.
I once saw a musical group on a kids TV show,told a local radio announcer we would see big things from them.
We did, Red Gum was their name, and just weeks after a song like a poem only 19 came out.
I stop, every time, at that memorial.
Not to celebrate but to remember.
And to wounder ,at the night actions of the filth,and wounder why a place of remembrance can be so miss used.

Dear Belly,

I often wonder the same thing about people
who desegrate someone's grave. Why?
They tell me that it takes all sorts.
I still wonder - why? The only conclusion
that can be reached is - these people are not
in full control of their faculties they've
mentally ill - and they
need help.

Dear Lexi,

Insanity or mental illness is sometimes illusive in definition. What is accepted in one society can be labeled mental illness in another. Both the czars and the communists put dissenters in mental institutions. If one believes in the essential rightness of one's society a dissenter is obviously mentally ill. Under the Nazis respectable members of society desecrated graves on orders. The desecrator of graves may be conforming to the standards of another society. My stepson worked for the Australian government in tracking down and restoring the remains of Aborigines from various museums and other institutions to the Aboriginal people which could claim title to those remains. Those who took those remains were not mentally ill by the standards of their time or our time, but they desecrated burial places.

What a beautiful and evocative verse you've provided us with JOSEPHUS. Between you and LEXI you've both found poetry of a kind, that clearly enunciates exactly what many of us feel but can only visualize.

Yet these consummate and gifted Poet's seem to be able to encapsulate precisely (with just a few carefully chosen words), the true import and emotion of many. More so than any Politician or most of us could, for that matter.

Thank you.

Dear o sung wu,

My father served in both the Malayan Emergency and Korea and ultimately the bottle got him quite a few years before your comrade.

In military college by the age of thirteen with all the accompanying bastardry being melted out to those young lads, caught at an early in the culture of which drinking is so much an integral part.

Damn fit, smart and gutsy, I think all clearance divers had to be, just found it hard to settle for the ordinary.

I get a sense that old age wouldn’t have sat well with him but I reckon he would have got a real kick out of his grandkids if he ever had had the chance to meet them.

ANZAC day does bring memories of him in uniform but also of sacrifices made by many others, especially my mother.

It is not only on the battle field where the costs are borne, something not always fully appreciated.

'evening to you CSTEELE...
Though I was never in the Navy, I did hear quite a lot of the many exploits of the naval clearance divers.

A duty that I'd not care to undertake, I can assure you. Malaya and Korea would have tested many of these brave souls, together with being consigned to living aboard a warship during those days,wouldn't have been very pleasent either. Particularly in the tropics.

Excessive consumption of alcohol was certainly another feature of the period too. But what other diversions were available. The place was so bloody hot, thus in order to cool down one kinda hit the bottle, so to speak. Sure there were some areas that had AIRCON, but nothing like that was available to us, generally.

It wasn't all bad. There were some very funny times too. Not all that many as it turned out, enough though.

Some of my former colleagues have returned to the country. Not me though, I never had the inclination nor desire to do so.

As they say CSTEELE '...keep your powder dry...'. I did enjoy, and was subsequently moved, by reading your thread. Please take good care of yourself.

i was 'in-spired'..to search for a poem

http://mail.google.com/mail/h/1ovpshstk6hvf/?s=q&q=war+cost+reborn+maimed++mutilated&nvp_site_web=Search+the+Web

first posting of it [refused to appear]
but now..its here

hear
two[links]
..stand out
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.archive.org/stream/vocationalreeduc00paeuiala/vocationalreeduc00paeuiala_djvu.txt&sa=U&ei=RAGBT5HmB-6SiAfnv4G0BA&ved=0CBoQFjAE&sig2=lj0PeDVgy6eh4qU83TqAjA&usg=AFQjCNHgvbUS3SUOTVDAPzDmn39yTJZENA

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.promethea.org/Misc_Compositions/FightingFutureWar/TheEffectsofWar.html&sa=U&ei=RAGBT5HmB-6SiAfnv4G0BA&ved=0CB8QFjAG&sig2=cH6o657rKHvtOLb76gZ05Q&usg=AFQjCNHn89AdJPbM90QMy8actBndYmXbAA

and give the freemason/vatican one a miss[lol]
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://freemasonrywatch.org/judas.html&sa=U&ei=RAGBT5HmB-6SiAfnv4G0BA&ved=0CCkQFjAJ&sig2=eBefLBZsbqh58vSwPS_U1w&usg=AFQjCNEgq5SbrrZ773UiSJEcZuMuY2HdoA

It's nothing new I'll suffer through
It's all in you an you're wrong
[continues at link]

http://www.lyrics.net/lyrics/mutilate/17

other samples...>>[from link]^

I compensate,..you mutilate
It separated and we're done

I can't sedate the way » Falls Apart

Self-Destructive Pattern
by Spineshank

Now
The time has come
why don't you
Say
We have some fun
and we can now
Play

Operation
and mutilate
*pieces of you

Now
I know
now that this may..» Pieces of You

Women and Children Last...
And Revenge Was the Main Course
by Murderdolls

take it
Come on in,
into the chapel..of blood

Now don't,..be afraid,
As I mutilate you..with this blade

Your body, it lays, in a pool
Of blood » Chapel of Blood

Women and Children Last...
And Revenge Was the Main Course
by Murderdolls

a legacy of murder,
a heritage of rape, a time honored =
Tradition to maim and mutilate...Cut away her labia with dirty broken =
Glass,

she died » Minister of Culture

Collect 'Em All
by Tilt


you down
Mutilated bodies
Crying out in vain!

I will get..the trophies
They will not regain

Once you cross the line
I will break your spine »..The Crippler

Tapping the Vein
by Sodom

full quotes..at link
but worse than these...are made real...!...via war'zzzzzz

UOG,
ANZAC is about rembering the sacrifice to keep you and me in a free world where we can express our ideas. It is not about war or the horror of war.

there is no death
so stop trying to die for us!

such materialist balderdash gets frustrating
as it glorifies lies!

there is only life after life

from a book
of the after life
where even there they love to kill

[lol yet even there cant]
but keep ya ignorances..inebriating the wrong meanings
glorifying the image..not the man

a DEDICATION
by.. the..*not dead..for no one

THIS WORK BY ME
IS INSCRIBED TO REGINALD LUCIEN WARD,

WHO FELL IN THE TIDE OF BATTLE WHERE
FLANDERS MERGES IN FRANCE;

AND PASSED FROM UNDER TIME’S FINGER
WITH NEVER A BACKWARD GLANCE,FOR LOVE OF HIS NATIVE LAND
IN BATTLE AGAINST A HORDE.

AND UNTO HIS COMRADES IN ARMS OF EVERY RANK
AND CREED, WHO GAVE THEIR ALL
IN THE CAUSE OF JUSTICE,
HONOUR, AND TRUTH,

AGAINST THE POWERS OF EVIL
THAT KNOW NEITHER
PITY NOR TRUTH.

TO THE MEN WHO HELD THE BREACH IN THE HOUR
OF BRITAIN’S NEED.

extracted from
gone west pdf
http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/viewtopic.php?f=198&t=13287

http://forum.worldfreemansociety.org/download/file.php?id=6412

Hi there One under God...

Thank you for the several contributions you've kindly made to this thread. And as the originator, I certainly appreciate the time you've taken hitherto, on this important subject matter.

I must confess though, albeit I do mostly understand the general thrust of your comments and observations, you do however sometimes lose me in the way you occasionally construct your syntax, thus dislocating the easy 'flow' of your thoughts and arguements per se.

Heavens above, I'm certainly not the sharpest knife in the draw, so I do need to read your comments rather carefully in order to fully understand what you're saying.

To my mostly unscholarly mind, you seem (almost) to veil your writing in some sort of allegory even emblematically. Where the true import of what you're saying is somehow feigned to be almost paradoxical.

I reckon you're a pretty smart person. Therefore, for the sake of us not so smart, please give us all, the benefit of your obviously sharp mind and that appreciable intellect of yours.

Thanks again O.U.G., your contributions to this thread are very much appreciated indeed.

yes im sorry about the words used
as you know each area..of human intrest..has its special words..

[and in study..i learned..the meaning
not the spelling/formating..etc..of words

but there are many 'thick finger' spelling mistakes
i often pick up...but still many get through...[i would hate people judging on perfect spelling...and be decieved cause its syntaxicly pure..but inherantly faulse...but these perfectionists..[luckey few]..usually give up trying to read]

i figure we are all here trying to help gain a better tomorrow
and this needs the life experiences of those who have crossed over..[as much as us 'living'..in this realm]

i often put my best guess forward..rather than avoiding reply
logic deems certain logical sequences...[like a first living thing..must preceed an 'evolution'..into new genus [claimed]

science hasnt the first nor the second
has never evolved any new genus..nor reprted it

yest it sound logical..but
the dna reveals logic didnt come into it

i wish all would study evolution
cause the more..[you get out of your 'specialised' area]
into the big cl;aims of genus mutating into new genus[there isnt a speck of proof for that]

but back to anzac's..i have read reports[from the other side]
see the officers second book..'the sublantern?'..its also mentioned in the link

but if people dont read
they cant judge...[its all right to judge things
just not others]..

[living beings arnt 'things']
yes a body is a thing..after the life spirit..rebirth
just as a seed dies..to grow into a tree..if only those who claim the good...served to all the good to be better*

yes
im a dreamer
but if the world dont get clever quickly..[this year]

its just extra needless suffering..for want of good peoople willing to do good..
[by their works will we know them]..not thier words

it is as easy
as simply trying to love other

As I said, O.U.G., I reckon you've got a very sharp mind, however lacking you may be in spelling. Please keep it up.

i prefer the image of diss-spelling
rather than spelling it out...[freewill is huge in spirit]
the worst 'sins'..are those that take away freedom of choice...

[cut/print]

we are living a live play
no unneeded extra's..were all needed to tell the full story

take the stage
make it up as you go

[its only by going along with lifes ebbs and flows
that you can get here][wherever 'hear' my occure]

yet you were here..all the time..in mime
i once was a reader...lol..now im in rhyme

i am a word; a promise
now a work..[a deliverd promise]

pary we be known by our works
not our best wurds

if ya not playing...with it
why did you stop?

if you not got started..[starled]
give it a go...its easy once you try

bye
not buy..its free dontya know

insight reveals the wurds i used to read...[of the dead]
now ,live on as living voice..lol ..[if only in my mind]