On Sunday one or more members of the US military murdered sixteen Afghan civilians, nine of them children. The US military claims the perpetrator is a lone staff sergeant who suffered a mental breakdown.

Some Afghan witnesses claim it was a group of drunken soldiers who shot civilians randomly.

Here is an excerpt from a Reuters report.

>>"They (Americans) poured chemicals over their dead bodies and burned them," Samad told Reuters at the scene.

Neighbors said they had awoken to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, who they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where killings took place.

"Their (the victims') bodies were riddled with bullets.">>

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/us-afghanistan-civilians-idUSBRE82A02V20120311

On the face of it the witness' claims sound plausible. Why would they lie?

Which version do you believe?

Which version is the more nearly correct one?

Let's start with a few objective facts.

Both versions are possible. It could have been a lone gunman suffering a mental trauma. Equally it could have been a drunken group of soldiers.

No one sitting in Melbourne can, at the time of writing, say with certainty which version is correct. At best we can say which version we believe is more likely to be correct.

For the time being I believe the US military's version of events for the following reasons:

--There would be many military witnesses so it is unlikely a group of drunken soldiers going on a killing spree could be covered up

--US military spokesmen can usually be counted on to tell the truth when they know there is a high probability of them implicated in a cover-up if they lie. In this case they must know it is unlikely they could suppress the truth.

What or who do you believe?

Why would Afghan witnesses lie?

Is Reuter's report of Afghan claims accurate. (Not the claims but the report of the claims.)

Did the Reuters reporter believe the Afghan claims?

Which version are most Afghans likely to believe?

Just a lttle while ago we had images of US soldiers urinating on dead Afghans.Humans on boths sides of this war have been used by the Military Industrial Complex to steal lithium for batteries,expand the heroine trade and get oil from Turkmenistan and set up bases to surround China.

Let them fight their own dirty filthy wars.Let the bankers of Wall St and Congress put their own bodies on the line.

>>Humans on boths sides of this war have been used by the Military Industrial Complex to ... expand the heroine trade...>>

Wow

The Military Industrial Complex is trying to muscle in on Hollywood's turf.

;-)

http://popconfidential.zap2it.com/2009/11/02/top-25-greatest-action-movie-heroines

Dear Steven,

As you say - it's hard to know who to believe in this case.

However the military of the US - tends to be an entity
governed by its own set of rules and laws.
We've got many historical examples. One that comes to mind
is the My Lai Massacre - which occurred
during the Vietnam War where the
mass murder of between 347 to 504 unarmed civilians by
US soldiers took place in South Vietnam - March 16, 1968.

Twenty two US soldiers were initially charged with criminal
offences but only one- William Calley was convicted. Although
he was given a life sentence he ended up serving only three and
a half years under house arrest.

As you said - why would the Afghans lie?
Who knows?
Why would the US military lie? Hmmmm - lets see ...
Isn't "image" part and parcel of the American way Steven?
They're the "good guys" aren't they?
At least that's what the world was told by John Wayne
in the movie - "The Green Beret."

cont'd ...

My apologies - the movie was called,
"The Green Berets."

Point is Lexi,

We know about My Lai. Calley's sentence may have been inadequate but we know the event occurred just as we know about Abu Ghraib.

In fact the worst things we know about the US we know from US sources. In general, in the US, cover-ups do not appear to work.

I also think it naïve in the extreme to assume some Afghan's would not lie about this. According to the Reuters report the massacre happened in Taliban territory. It would be in the interests of the Taliban and their supporters to paint the US in the worst possible light.

That's why for now my money is on the American version being the one that is most nearly correct. Not 100% correct; but most nearly correct.

However, while I would bet on the American version being (mostly) correct I would not risk a large sum. Not more than, say, $50.

As ever, time will tell.

I without reserve am a fan of the USA.
And without reserve am concerned about its present course.
We know, if we have eyes and ears, others do much the same and worse, yes worse as a group fueled by hate not this insanity.
And that this has been found to be the act of one person an American soldier.
The thread suggests much more, but never forget ,not for an instant, lies are a weapon and every day currency in that part of the world.
Remember too, lack of understanding, and education, keeps peoples minds in the middle ages there.
Now for America, it too must confront its jingoism, its radical Christian belief that it acts in Gods name.
America celebrates its armed forces, bright and shiny Marine soldiers looking great and with great precision showing skills in use of guns.
But on active service, armed, SOME/TOO MANY with the America right always, its troops have more deaths of civilians and friendly others than any army.
Before parodying me,remember I honor the America that twice saved the old world, but lets its ex service personnel sleep on the streets? never.

A friend who has just returned from Seattle saw Vets with missing limbs begging for money.Is this how the West treats its returned soldiers ?

Stevenlmeyer you are trying to deny the reality.The Banking Military Industrial Complex is behind these wars of Western Imperialism.They started the last two World Wars also.Let them put their children on the line this time.

Dear Steven,

Just to clarify a few points:

The US army did NOT begin investigating My Lai until
the Spring of 1969, a year after the killings, and
only after a former member of Charlie Company sent a
letter to government officials, including then US
President Richard Nixon and numerous members of Congress.
The army had denied the incident ever happened prior to
that. Also as it turned out combat photographer Sgt
Ron Haeberle had photographs of the incident - which were
later published.

So, I guess we'll have to wait a while for the truth to
be outed - if it ever will be, that is. Blaming one soldier
on a mental disorder does seem a bit too convenient though -
doesn't it? Walks like a duck, talks like a duck ...

How do you find a terrorist? Take an oil engineer along with his sophistocated equipment.

You only have to look at the average BLOCKHEAD that serves in the US military to realise how plausible it is that such an atrocity could be perpetrated by the misfits that make up the US milatry machine. Was his name Chuck or Leroy!

Paul you can do better than that.
Hopefully arjay you can too.
We mate are talking about one American.
Not western what ever.
They confront folk who make public execution a public sport.
Who send children and mentally impaired ,bomb strapped to their body's to murder innocents.
They hate us, sometimes because we are different, or because we do not believe in their God.
The holly book they have tells them to hate and lie.
America, parts of it are like a movie in progress, with a badly written script and worse actors.
The folk you sprook for, then are too, but its a horror film without end, not a halo in sight.

Belly, I was referring to the gung-ho culture that exists within US militarism. From the top down they have no understanding of the people they wish to pacify, their beliefs or their culture. They try to exert a master race mentality, seeing all other as some kind of inferior peasant. They are so wrapped up in their own propaganda they actually believe it. The average American genuinely can not understand why half the world wants to blow them to pieces, they have the "shucks we'ed da good guys" mentality, "everyone should love us." At the base level of US militarism for the blockheads its a case of little boys with big toys, very dangerous people. These guys are no more than the US attack dogs, that is their function.
It concerns me when a Labor man, such as yourself, would say "I without reserve am a fan of the USA." I recall the slogan "All the way with LBJ." I much prefer the true progressives with an independent belief to the tied old Labor mob who dutifully fall in behind Uncle Sam at every call.

Well I'll leave you all with this thought.

We'll have to wait and see what emerges from any inquiry into the events of Sunday.

However whatever the Amercians may or may not have done to the Afghans will pale into insigificance compared to what the Taliban has done to them in the past and will do to them in the future. I have a feeling that educated women in Afghanistan will weep when the Americans leave. Their situation is bad now. It will become infintely worse.

But I still think we and the US should leave - preferrably today. Afghan women will have to fend for themselves.

steven
add this to your dumbing down education by oil topic
do you count hash oil/

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4199886,00.htmlits

but back tro this toopic
funny..if it one guy..one nutter
all this fuss

if its one state
nuthin
http://uruknet.com/?p=m86433&hd=&size=1&l=e

but back to this topic
red flag or black flag..or faulse flag?

http://12160.info/forum/topics/false-flag-alert-afghanistan-taliban-vow-revenge-for-civilians?xg_source=activity

do we need top know the reason
nuthing justifies killing

[the lie of a just war..is just a way
to kill just them...or excuse to kill lots more than 'them'
if they dare attack one of us..[even if it is one of us doing it to rally the cause..[moss t sad]

muddy the waters
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/03/08/exposing-kony-2012-phony-youth-movement-promotes-military-presence-africa-92622/

raise topics on other topic[like china]
activly delete yet others...ignore the 'sign's

see the minions..in that dark place
surrounded by the ring..of fire..
rejoice

solar flares as us and them polar opposities do massive battle
hoping the earthy battles on earth bring their final end time
[final shipment of vile]
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/03/12/sunspot-1429-releases-2-mclass-flares-94371/

witless the affects right here of the vile influx
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/148016

[the next sol spot
the next power/..pole shift]

http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2012/03/stop-netanyahu-2012.html
http://americansjourney.blogspot.com/2012/03/musings-on-murders-complications-on.html

very important
http://atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/NC13Ak01.html

Yes, very important. I'm intrigued by Dagan taking a sane view in high circles. To convince the US to de-escalate militarism over Iran would be quite something for reason over jingoism.

Oh dear though. Do some people here not feel the death of innocent civilians at the hands of the US military to be deeply shameful whether or not the killer was alone? This is trivialised by mentions of Taliban actions as if they were some kind of justification. Tit-for-tat violence is no kind of civilised philosophy.

Paul1405,
That's a load of garbage, while no fan of War or U.S imperialism I have many online acquaintances who are serving in the U.S Miiltary.
Combat troops are not "meatheads" or "gung ho", in my experience they are always bright, intelligent, educated and thoroughly normal people, rear echelon troops, the ones who do not fight can be downright awful and do have a bad reputation, remember only about 20% of an army actually goes into battle.
I'll bet you a dollar this latest shooter was on "Anti Depressants", just like all the "lone wolves" we read about, Tim McVeigh, Jared Loughner, Dylan Klebold, Seung-Hi Cho and the rest.

The story that a group of drunken US soldiers carried out the Afghan massacre appears to have faded. Even Al Jazeera has stopped carrying it.

All the signs point to an act of madness by a single individual. The probability that the official version is correct is growing.

Which raises a question.

What are we to make of the claims that a group was involved?

Were the people making the claims lying? Were they mistaken? Were they infected by group hysteria?

The US military have gone into damage control mode on this one. Days later they have failed to name the suspect, removed the suspect from Afghanistan to Kuwait, what, no faith in the Afghan justice system? Put stringent controls on communications from the base the suspect was at, shut down both phone and internet access to the zone the suspect operated in. Is this to be another US military white wash! One psychotic individual who acted alone.

Paul1405

I have the feelng that no matter what the evidence - or lack of evidence in this case - you will continue to believe that a group of soldiers was involved, that it was not a single psychotic individual.

Now I freely confess that I cannot be 100% certain either way. But given the way the story is developing I am now about 90% certain that the official story is correct at least in outline.

New evidence would make me change my mind. Maybe that is the difference between you and me.

Steven,

Even that American glove puppet Hamid Karzai is not satisfied with the way this is being handled by the US military machine.

Lawmakers in Afghanistan, meanwhile, are expressing outrage the US flew the soldier suspected of gunning down 16 civilians early on Sunday in two Afghan villages to Kuwait on Wednesday night.

They demand the suspect, a US Army staff sergeant, be tried in Afghanistan.

If this was to happen in say Darwin, Australia, 16 Australians are gunned down by a US solider from a US base in the NT would you expect the US military to not name the suspect, then fly the suspect to Hawaii?

Paul1405

The question I raised was not whether the US military "handled" the aftermath of the massacre in a satisfactory manner. We can certainly debate that.

The first question I raised was whether the massacre was the work of a single individual as the US military claimed or whether a drunken group of soldiers went out and shot 16 Afghan civilians as some Afghans told Reuters. Your dislike of the US military notwithstanding, it seems increasingly likely that on this occasion at least the US military was telling the truth. Even Al Jazeera has dropped the story of a drunken group.

The second question I posed was why did some Afghans assert that a drunken group of soldiers was involved? One possible answer is that they were reporting accurately and the US military is lying. That explanation seems increasingly unlikely. Not impossible. But given that even Al Jazeera is no longer making that claim the balance of the evidence seems to be against it.

So what is going on? Were the Afghans simply mistaken – in the terror of the attack they may well have thought a group was involved?

Were the Afghan's lying?

Were they caught up in hysteria?

Were they persuaded by the Taliban to tell a story that would paint the US in the worst possible light?

Could it be a little bit of all of the above?

These questions are independent of whether the US should or should not have flown the individual concerned out of the country.

Do you have anything to say about the actual questions I posed?

For the record. I think the US should leave Afghanistan immediately. I say this in the full knowledge that this will leave Afghan women to the tender mercies of the sort of people who throw acid in the faces of young girls impudent enough to attend school.

There are no "good guys" here.