I have without fear put my views on the ALP debacle over its recent history and leadership.
And while Conservatives Liberals Nats seem unaffected by them, my side is not.
I in another thread spoke about age, how my 66 years vs some yet still in their 30s showed and taught me lessons others have not seen.
1945 till now,well say 1953, I watched Labor fail, Dons party existed for us, the disappointment at least.
Every party MUST have factions.
If we had just a Socialist Labor,confronting a center unity Labor a green Labor, no victory would, EVER be possible.
Just as the Nats, a servant party to Liberals,[currently under orders from Abbott's Conservatives] have factions.
I am often told my party is no longer the one it was, it is not, and that pleases me.
60,s 50s we sat proudly in opposition.
Telling our selves we had the best policy's.
Comrades we are the best opposition this country ever had.
Whitlam, POMPOUS but brilliant too, bought us in to understanding,voters never wanted other than middle of the road government.
So factions exist, still today ruled by if not faceless men deaf ones.
Factions exist to ward off stupid minority's wanting a return to policy's that push voters away, mindless dreams that are in reality nightmares.
But the power generated by them?
Should it be used at the whim of power brokers.
If my task was to print a HTV for any future election I would BEG those leaving my party to never give greens a vote.
And if my branch has power brokers putting a mate in my seat, informal is my vote intention.
Only the best should serve.

Dear Belly,

Excellent attitude on your part - one to be admired.

I think we all realise the power of factions
in each party. However we can only hope that
Labor will put in the necessary reforms and give
back more control to its elected party members.
That it will come out of this latest hiccup -
a stronger, united party - ready to achieve
positive outcomes for all Australians.
It has to - because the alternative to Labor
is too dreadful to contemplate.

Some, far more educated than me, may put this in a better way.
But western Governments, warts faults and all, deliver better results not just because we are richer.
Factions, in every party,develop a way we can progress.
No group of humans, let us use the numbers in the ALP Caucus, was the vote in total 103?
It does not matter, show me such a group of humanity that has not got nearly as many views.
Factions become groups, that achieve, outcomes that most want, including those they serve.
Factions are not bad,SOME power is miss used by faction heads/power brokers , that is wrong.
Conservatives are as factionalized as any party.
Dictatorships, country's ruled by religion or race, would be far better, if factions had a voice.
Simplistic claims I by my stand demanding change in my party, constant improvement.
And want leadership in the party's interests not factions, is uninformed.
Left of center , far left, dislike me, for defending Labors drift to wards the center, and gloating at Liberals racing away from Liberalism.
But too take on board,Australia has always been much more conservative than some think.
A well know, but ignored fact, a chanted slogan of the 60s and 70s I voted Labor, challenged by other workers who knew Liberals had workers votes highlights it.
A minority is a minority, Socialism is forever a minority.
Building a brick house if all you have is one single wheel barrow of bricks is impossible.
Continued.

I hope the thinkers among us will understand factions are not bad.
And that like the air we breath not a one party thing.
In fact they hold our party's together.
The very left always fails in votes, most would be pleased, some of the air headed things they try on would kill forever my party.
Yet from the left some of my party's true greats came, come,and always will, Gillard while not in that number came from the left.
Albanese, the bloke could be PM!
Senator Faulkner! he should have been, no better ever served my party.
Lets not get upset with anti Labor barbs, understanding is absent from SOME.
Factions are miss used but try holding a party,any party, together without one.
I started this after a poster I think much of said I was drifting to the right.
My faction, center unity, has the task of holding my party mid stream.
That place alone is the place voters will except.
The old chant we are the best opposition this country ever had remains insane.
Who post 1972 won office for Labor, while not being seen as a star by the electorate?
Soon we test how good an opposition we can be.

Oh Lexi, how quaint you are, "we can only hope that Labor will put in the necessary reforms and give back more control to its elected party members".

The problem Lexi, is that the ALP is bereft of membersship, or more specifically, members that are not parliamentarians and their families and staff, union officials and their families, and eager young things who are beavering their way through low grade degrees in politics and communications with an eye to joining whichever political party it looks as if they might gain a toehold, into parliament.

There are no 'branch members' any more. Well, there are a few here and there, sometimes with just enought to get a quorum, but these are all old people, left over from the Days of Rage and tired of seeing the ALP spiral downwards into the political cesspit it now finds itself in, through its own hard work of course.

There are 'reform' plans going back years, sitting gathering dust, unopened, unread for years, since they were published in fact, any one of which might have helped to revive the dinosaur but for the fact that the purpose was only to have been produced, so after another crushing defeat, it looked as if the ALP topbrass monkeys were 'listening to the branches'.

How ever-so-innocently amusing. The branches are redundant and have been for many many years.

In fact, Belly might well be the last real branch member in NSW.

Dear TBC,

If what you're saying is true then where did the
elected Labor MPs come from and why are they head
and shoulders above their colleagues in the Opposition
including their hard-nosed leader? The achievements of
the Labor government compared with the lack of ideas
and negativity coming from the Coalition is something
that voters will inevitably notice - especially with
positive outcomes that will be forth coming before
the next election. Your doom and gloom scenario is
simply the mantra that is being foisted onto the general
public by the partisan media - and the Coalition.
It's not something that everyone buys. The next election
is a while away yet - lets wait and see what happens next.

Lexi TBC while often holding views similar to ours is a refugee from the ALP.
A Green at that, justifying his actions will not let him see the truth.
He however is both very right, and very wrong, in his views about branch membership.
Labor is talking about addressing this issue, but not yet acting.
At the end of my union job, I seemed to be the only active party member, it was never more than 45%, of officials.
Constant pleas from a past Secretary, to join the ALP, made to delegates not officials,who must be .
Failed, one of 30 joined,and found it like swimming in treacle.
I stood midst the heart of NSW Unionism, and a powerful center Unity heads office.
To hear the branches selected candidate, an active area member, was to be replaced, by Peter Garret.
Sussex Street has time and again, told us Branch's in the current form are decorative only.
Fund raising booth manning but unneeded, once the power brokers who climb them like a ladder have reached the next level.
A sand box for older true believers to play in while resisting change.
Have no fear!
Labor warts and all, will learn and will continue to be the choice for true change.
Factions ,unlike say Italy, but it could be far more country's, unite groups in one.
In those country's factions control the very Parliaments and stop any progress.
Never fall for the idea Labor should return to its beginning, be the best opposition forever.
I will soon, take up my own challenge,put my views on the faults of Conservative party faults, because they have far more problems than they wish known, and factions

Dear Belly,

Thanks for that.

I hear you loud and clear.

As I stated previously - it's early days yet
lets wait and see what happens next. I have
no doubt that Labor will rise above all this
and positive outcomes will be the result.
Labor has survived for decades - due to the fact
of its ability to change and adapt.

Lexi artistic paintings of a dead ALP are painted by the self interest of others.
Have no doubt, I think we should be so far in front in polling we could force a DD.
Our policy's say that.
Rudd's removal has damaged us, personal hatred of the bloke, blinded some.
But that will end, as it must, sorry but only a miracle can stop out decimation, next election.
Abbott will be gone Gillard exposed and us? flogged.
I speak out because my party comes first always.
Because the lie solidarity is chanted to stop us reviewing our faults and mistakes.
Only constant change and improvement will do.
And as more demand an end to the idea we rank and file are just the oil rags for others the better.
My wish and demand remains be the best we can always.

You see Lexi, Belly agrees with my observations.

He likes to qualify some, to save face, but in essence, he agrees.

Where did the current crop come from?

As I described. In their early and youthful hunt for a career, not in their discovery of a useful activity after many years of work and experience.

I concur on the standard of the other side though. Given their propensity for loving money and power, maybe most of them are failed at business, Turnbull aside, with no other avenues open to them?

As for Gillards Goons shining? Well, everything is relative (particularly in the ALP when having a relative in it helps your career heaps)and it really is not hard to shine against a Hockey, Bishop (both) or a Pyne, although, to be fair, Gillard's Goons do struggle against Abbott's 'best' at times.

I have abandoned the media, and see for myself the parody that is government, and at the state level too, with Bligh here and NSW and Victoria too.

Pathetic, is being generous.

BTW, I am happy for Belly to critique the Greens, as they should be too, and I am more tha happy to support those worthy of support and denounce those not.

Being Green is a practical step for me rather than a Belly like adoration.

Blue Cross, why is it that you and a couple of others who reveal themselves as greens come out of the woodwork to attack Gillard,Labor, factions but never to defend Green policies?

Please explain what the Greens will do over the next 18 months to save themselves from irrelevancy under a majority coalition government they are aiding and abetting to get elected.

You'll have to ask them that, Im not all that interested in their fate, to be honest with you.

I expect though that their vote will drop as people make an effort to ensure either a Coalition or an ALP crew is elected.

The results of Gillards election, although not a disaster at all, are resented by the very people who created this situation, the punters.

I imagine, just as when the punters foolishly gave Howard both houses, there will be an overreaction to the power sharing on the green seats and independents and some Greens will go.

Such is life.

As for defending Green policies. Hmm, why should I?

I am mainly voting against the Coalition and ALP, whose policies are very poor but that does not mean I think the Greens are very good.

In fact, there's one I think is intolerable and a total disgrace.

Geez, BC, that's quite a platform. Such admirable conviction. You really are green.

Conviction?

If you live in a black and white world, I suppose such an emotion might be handy but I see it as potentially destructive, rather short sighted, and all too frequently, dangerous if overplayed.

There is nothing quite so repulsive as watching sports fans screaming for 'their team' and living vicariously through the successes while collapsing when things go bad.

Perhaps that is you, with your Coalition chums?

You can have it.

I'd be happy to snip a good policy for supporting from the Libs, if I could find a policy beyond 'non!'.

Some of the ALP ones are fine, but far too watered down.

Some were only possible due to the Greens.

But really, overall, whatever policies we all suffer under at the moment are basically the same, or very similar, because all parties subscribe to endless growth as the only answer to everything.

So, one day, there will be a reckoning for that, and those who have invested 'committment' to the cause, will be very shocked to find it was not really all that worth while.

Conviction is not an emotion but arises from experience and intellect. There are people of conviction in politics surrounded by some who aren't. Great reforms happen, nevertheless.

Barry Jones was on the radio a couple of days ago saying that, as a recent phenomenon, young students of law,economics had approached him for advice on entering politics. When he asked them about their convictions they often they said they didn't hold any in particular , they just wanted a platform from which to grow a political career, in either major party.

Currently, true believers on all sides of politics do rise to the surface leaving self-servers in their wake. However, this is not going to last if BJ's experience is anything to go by. Factionalism (allegiances) may well replace conviction as a basis for government action in future parliaments but it's not here just yet, IMO.

LF,

There are lots of politicians with convictions in the ALP. Craig Thomson will probably soon join them.

Let me give you an insight into my local ALP branch. Run by Mr Big, he has a couple of gofers, who do the hack work. Membership, local Councillors and family members, mystery members those on the books but never come to meetings, mostly blokes off the local council outdoor staff. Did they per-select the local candidates for the State and federal seats, seen as safe Labor, both people were parachuted in by head office. One an aging rocker the other an ex premier with a hair do, You can work out who they are. I'll tell a story about the day I met the aging rocker, I'll call him John to protect his identity. Two elections ago i'm doing a booth for The Greens in Labor heartland when a minder turns up with John. The minder shoves a bunch of how-to-votes into Johns hands and then leaves him standing there and goes off somewhere. I'm one side of the gate and Johns standing on the other with a Liberal bloke, the other 2 Labor were standing some distance away. As people came through the gate I'm handing out HTV's saying vote Green the Lib doing the same for his mob. I noticed John was just standing there doing nothing, no handing out HTV's or pressing the flesh, doing nothing. I said "John come 6 o'clock tonight you going to be the new MP for here you better rus up some votes." As thing got quite John and I had a bit of a conversation about things, I must say i found him a real nice guy. When his minded returned and took John away I thought "John you are a nice guy, but you don't know what you are getting yourself into." I think Johns got to go next time and let Hair Do take over the seat. Then the ALP head office can parachute a block from the LC to take over the State seat and oust Robo for the leadership. Democracy in action. I must say John improved last time around a lot more confident.

Now how do The Greens per-select a candidate? Call for nominations, then on per-selection day a meeting of all members within the electorate is called. The candidate(s) are called in one by one to address the meeting, giving an outline as to why they should be per-selected, If there is only one nomination that person is asked to leave the room as the case with multiple nominations, a discussion takes place as to the suitability of the candidate(s). If any candidate was deemed unsuitable by the membership, not happened in my lifetime, they would be excluded from the ballot. The successful candidate is asked to return and congrats all round. if there was no successful candidate new nominations would be called for, that's not happened in my life time although have had a per-selected candidate with draw for personal reasons. Then down to business of forming an election committee. Strangely I don't find any factions with in The Greens just different points of view.

Paul, TBC, SOME of what you say is true, of EVERY political party.
Factions, a glue that allowed party's to exist, ensures at least some are weeded out.
It is hugely funny, that minority Factions, blame Majority's, for not letting minority views win every battle.
Make no mistake,I am 100% ALP and not just proudly but pleased with our path, as a party.
I target change, and convict, power brokers, with the current mess.
I however TBC charge you and Paul, with not truly understanding me.
I want my growing improving new Labor, to stop folk like me hurting it.
By taking the need away, by stopping such as Gillards control freaks running my party over a cliff.
LABOR!take a look, if Rudd had never existed, can you look me in the eye and promise Gillard would not still be unloved and unwanted?
Is it so bad of me to say my party,full of talent and good policy's is being miss used.
In my dreams a day comes that all Branch's are open, that the average age in them is 40, that 20 and 30 year olds run them.
Playing cards with my party right now if Conservatives change to Turnbull Labor will instantly drop ten more points.
Personality's, no true rule but a third vote based on it.

Belly, Agrub resigned, and the NSW right faction immediately went into overdrive as to who they would install in his place. I'd like to see O'Farrell do an 'Albert Field', that would put wind up them. Will there be an consultation with the rank and file membership I think not.
You say: "I want my growing improving new Labor, to stop folk like me hurting it." Here is their big chance to practice some democracy, again I think not. The Labor bus is charging along at 100mph towards that cliff top, and there is no brake, over go the whole sorry bunch, into oblivion. P/s can you make room for Abbotts mob in the back of that bus?

Paul1405, Albert Field? Don't you worry about that!

The ALP need no help to get an Albert Field, they'll select their own if they go for Mundine or KKK.

Whatever the size of his ego and sense of self importance, you'd have to say the rightwing Carr would be an amusing addittion to the red seats.

At least he can think on his feet.

And, unlike most politicians, he's honest about his lack of 'faith', and for that alone, he deserves a spot.

Yes Blue, like like Gillard, Carr can think on his feet, & come up with a quick answer.

However from his time in NSW you'd have to admit, that also like Gillard, no matter what they are thinking about, their answer is always a lemon.

TBC What about if Labor appoint Peter Slipper to the House of Lords. As long as they let him dress up as Napoleon or Julius Caesar Pete will vote for anything Julie wants. After all he is a man of principle. Just don't tell him its called the Senate, remember House of Lords.

Hasbeen my mate our combats have been many but united we stand, on day Lilly's!
I have learned today you are a member of the lost faction of the Conservatives a splinter group of the far right Joe section.
While amused by my Green combative Friends Paul and TBC they are in a faction that is indeed a fraction, it would benefit from introduction of a new faction/idea.
But as Labor fled the we never want to win mob, it is nice to know they mill around in the Greens fenced off, from reality, paddock.
Carr can not be blamed for Gillards fibs, its all the Lady's own work.
She came from the very left, but on a pogo stick, one she has never learned to control.
She hops from left to right and some times forgets she is riding it, while making policy's, hence peoples forum and cash for clunkers.
IF she believes in putting the past behind her, or if she is just trying to sell herself,latter more likely, she will appoint Kevin Rudd as Minister for foreign affairs.

Belly, very amusing description of the Baptist PM, I like it.

I don;t agree she came from the far left though.

Like most in factions she just selected one from which to position herself for a career. Theer is no 'left' ideology in the ALP, just a bit of hankering for tariffs and medicare and that's about it these days.

Carr got the gig eh? He'll be insuffereable from now on (not that he hasn't been for ever anyway).

Hassie, have to agree about NSW but I wonder if it's just the fact that organised crime runs the state not politicians that did him down?

I must say that it's literally a mess in Sydney but how much that is a state government issue or a local council one is for locals to work out not me.

I suspect though that the best move would be to ditch all those group-hug councils and get a real one, like Brisbane has, and that way it could badger the state government better.

I think Slipper was promised the Howard cottage in Kent if Howard didn't want it, and maybe the Cinque Ports job too.

I think Slipper looks grand and he should require all Senators to dress in Jacobean garb, complete with swords, every day.

Let us get our taxes worth, I say.

Belly, there are factions in the Greens too.

There's enviros, crystal gazers, dopeheads, ex-ALPers, and youf.

Sometimes, as with all factions, the boundaries merge a bit and its hard to tell a crystal gazing youf dopehead who cares about the environment, from an ex-ALPer who is a dopehead, cares for the environment and is still young.

TBC afraid the ALP has its left, and as far left as you can find today.
Rather than 1950,s when Labor members came to the house feeling undressed without the bib and brace over alls, many now come in suits.
Strangely more ALP members come with university degrees than Liberals, while Nations bring names much like cattle and little else.
Angus Brangus you know the deal, the smell of sale yards also aids in identifying a national.
Yes left, well the factions in the Greens are different.
Chips from the same block hence the often quoted *they are off their blocks*
Interesting day our Julia found the pogo stick had a mind of its own and hard to control, so back to Carr, and quite strange a great choice, only one to equal my Kevin.
Ms Gillard looked the part, during the announcement she, unlike in Caucus took control regimenting the presses questions, and the order they could ask them.
Well we shall see my thoughts remain she is as likely to be in that role next year as me.
The left, true left, will forever want to defame the ALP for? its success while the left waits for passing dogs to water its tree before the last leaf falls and it dies,even the dogs are reluctant to assist,

Blue you amaze me. Suggesting we should trust that bunch of ratbags with weapons. A bit much mate.

Still I suppose, if the way their tongues works is any indication, none of them would be dextrose enough to wield a sword anyway.

But just a minute, if Abbott is a volunteer fire fighter & life saver, his limbs may be more dexterous than his tongue, they would need to be. Perhaps he could acquit himself better than most.

Of course Julia could impale anyone on her cold stare, or her viper's tongue, provided she was behind them at the time.

My my how easy some find reason to slander my party .
I too do on occasions,but then I try to have a reasoned look.
It is charming, truly it is, that only the ALP is targeted or the increasingly isolated Greens.
One faction in the fiction know as Liberals,but in reality Conservatives.
Wants welfare for the high income earners, to bred more Conservatives?.
Another, getting close to Liberalism folks! be warned Tony will have none of that.
Want to spend it on disability scheme such as Labors.
Some want to cut health[Abbott does that well]others education.
A minority unlikely to have any impact, secretly known as the Liberal party wants an increase in both.
The once Cow cockys united faction, some within still claim party status, wants to pretend it is no slave to Conservative leadership.
Abbott in his own faction, the say anything slogan mob, wants workers to vote for him so he can betray them too,as he has in almost every thing he once said he supported.
Factions are universal.

Belly, stop the paranoia about The Greens. We are the progressive party today that your mob should be. Your party was great in 1897 and in 1930, it was still great in 1941 and again in 1972. I thank the Labor Party for Jack Lang, John Curtain, Ben Chifley,Goug Whitlam, and many others. In the past the Labor Party, more than any other worked tirelessly for the ordinary bloke like you and me. I applaud the Australian Labor Party, of which I was once a proud member, for the contribution it has made to Australian society.
However, some time ago the party changed, it craved power for powers sake, and it got it with Hawke, Keating Rudd and Gillard. The party become pragmatic with no real philosophy, no longer committed to the under dog, but rather it become a pale imitation of the Bob Menzies Liberal Party a 'new' conservative party. The party was no longer socialist, not even reformist, it just wanted power for powers sake. I knew that for sure, the day Gillard took office after the last election, she knew no good could be done for Australia the way things had panned out, she should have handed 'power' to Abbott, like her he too was desperate for power, craved it, demanded it, wanted it. An Abbott led government would not have lasted five minutes. Then Australia could have got the government it needed and deserved. So don't hate The Greens, if you must hate, then hate those within who are destroying your party for the sake of power. ps Agrub went the other day, a small start.

Paul 1405 by any chance are you fair dinkum?
You are aware as a kid I was a lost lefty, it became hard to continue for several reasons.
The invasion of Hungary, Murders of British held POW s on being forcible returned to Russia.
By age 15 I was getting too big for my childhood toys, and we lost our meeting places as the red phone boxes went.
Dare I mention your current polling, 6%!
Now while many leftist regimes did take over at the point of a gun it seems unlikely the greens could raise enough to take the local Macas.
Think with me, Country Party/Nationals get more than twice your votes.
Yet the chances of them taking over are nil.
Yes I dislike the greens, yes intensely, do you wish to know why.
Greens are a faction within a faction, all the minority's who can not stand alone join and consider them selves rather smugly in change.
After considered thought Paul, true honest evaluation, I think most Australians, and myself, would be pleased if the floating rubbish junk you protect sank.
Harsh? yes I concede but mate so very true,truth is worth respecting.
No bitterness no fear just contempt for a party that pushes the cast off policy's of all other and claims martership for being so increasingly marginal .

Each of our threads on politics now and for a few years show vastly different views heated or not.
This was about factions, and yet as we strayed I at least saw evidence why all party's have them.
Paul and I sometimes put the boot in,we some times agree, but each wants nothing to do with the others team.
I would feel betrayed, if Labor merged with Greens.
Such for me would be replacing raisins in a cake mix with blue metal.
Remember the Democrats? Don Chip was a man well liked in his party Liberal.
He and Natasha after lead well, but other leaders as I see the greens, insisted on selling fridges to Icelanders, and seemed surprised at going out of business.
Factions unite party's, and give some unwanted a place to cry that they sell products few want.

Early start again farmer markets.
If you take the time you can hear us speak our minds about politics in such places.
Some, from all sides, seem to have forgotten the basics.
Claims will be made that all party's and all their members are bad.
In truth not even close, even the greens have good folk, we ignore we find others views wrong, but never our own.
Factions are not evil, just consider what we would confront without them.
Within Conservative ranks both pro and anti carbon tax factions exist.
We see other views on boat people there too.
Abbott's big new tax, on business to fund parental leave for those on incomes up to $150.000 are apposed too, in his own party.
Some want to support the motor industry others not, in that party.
Steel industry support is both proposed and opposed in Liberal ranks.
Factions, in the end, give voice to all views then, thankfully, the majority gets its way.
Leaving, only sometimes, a minority who, such as the greens, says the system is broken.
It will be, the day we let minority's over rule majority's.

Only some will know what faction the real winner in Gillards reshuffle came from.
No joy for me, I truly think I understand the for me, horrible future under a Conservative Government, or will it be Liberal, a return to Turnbull.
But Swan, a bloke I have liked all his time in the house, is getting slower.
And while Carr will prosper, may even be the third candidate,saving a spot at the top for a future leader, I am unsure we can progress.
My apparent contempt for some actions of the controlling faction, neglect to state that is my chosen faction.
But I just have no choice, my party needs openness it needs to know it is no board game, to be played with by others.