Rudd is waging an undeclared war of attrition against Julia Gillard, but the real question in my mind is why anyone would go back to Rudd.

Rudd failed comprehensively as Prime Minister, mostly because he didn't have any plans for what he would do once he got there - getting there was enough.

So after winning he went looking for agendas, which led to the 2020 Summit, which was a colossal failure - virtually nothing that came out of it was implemented.

Then, after making such a big deal of the carbon tax he reneged on it - wasn't prepared to push the issue and go to a double dissolution on it.

Along the way he alienated his colleagues and his staff with his aggressive self-promotion and micro-management of every issue. By the end he was leading them to defeat, so they opted for Julia.

I can understand why they want to move on from Julia, but Rudd wouldn't be moving on, he'd be moving backwards, and at a very fast rate.

No Graham,I want them to bring Rudd back so a new independant Party of the people,rises out of their ashes.Let them decay and rot in their own corruption and decadence.

We will be all better off without them.

Graham, while I agree with every word you say, I think labor are miss understanding the real issue, that being listening to the people.

It is the voting public that want Rudd back, not the labor caucus.

Regardless of who leads labor, they (labor) are only part of the problem, as what the people really want is a chance to rid our nation of this unworkable arrangement we have in government, whereby we have deals being broken and constant threats of withdrawal from independents.

Regardless of who we get next time, it is more than likely we will have a fairly large majority government and in my opinion it can't happen soon enough.

Personally, I don't think it makes a blind bit of difference who's the nominal figurehead, which is all that Gillard is capable of and all that Rudd could aspire to if he was to be put back in the chair. The ALP is not able to offer anything more than such figureheads because their collectivist culture is disproportionately in the thrall of relatively small power blocs, including the Unions and the femi-warriors of Emily's List. Genuine leadership is impossible.

The elephant in the room for Labor is the Greens and they're not going to go away, nor are they going to become easier to manage. It seems increasingly likely that the Left will need to consider the problem of governing in coalition as a normal fact of life if they ever manage to gain office after this term's debacle.

Believing what you read in the media won't cut the mustard. No one is proposing Rudd come back. The way things are going, Abbott could end up in the minority.

My concern is the influence of the media on the actions of governments, an influence that increases with every tweet, every blog, every opinion forum entry, as well as with the output of every desperate journalist, generating controversy simply in order to earn a crust.

While this phoney war between Rudd and Gillard may indeed result in a spill, and even more blood-letting from the ALP, it is most certainly a symptom of deeper issues of communication between the governed and the government in this country.

The first, and obvious question is... whom can we believe any more? There are so many avenues for self-interested communication that proliferate across the various channels and into our consciousness, the idea of a consistent, properly-researched and even-handed analysis of political activity is entirely obsolete. If that state ever existed, of course. It may have always been this way, but the ability of personal prejudice to reach every corner of the community in a nanosecond is new, creating problems of both quantity and quality.

As a result, deep analysis and reasoned discussion are reduced to the "Like" button.

Now, none of this is a problem at the individual level. It is the stuff of perfectly normal daily discourse. But when it becomes the driving force behind political activity, the actions of politicians and the operation of government in general, it undermines the entire concept of democracy, and the manner in which our society is conducted.

Sorry about that. It must be Monday morning.

Do we believe what the media tells us?
Personally (and I could be wrong) I don't
think that Kevin Rudd will be making any
sort of "come-back." His time as PM has come
and gone and he would be wise to continue
doing what he's obviously so qualified to do -
his present job of Foreign Affairs Minister.

As for our current PM? Lets wait and see what
develops. She still has some time prior to the
next election to continue to achieve more
positive outputs.

All this negativity that's currently on display
against the government -
only shows the vast influence of the vested
interests that control the media. We shouldn't
buy into it.

Well Lexi, I guess that depends on just whether we are willing to risk more waste and more pain.

Everything labor crows about as being an achievement, is also predicted to cause much pain and anguish when you listen to the business leaders.

Are you suggesting these leaders, the job creators are all wrong?

How on earth can the worlds largest carbon tax (by far) be an achievement?

Your concerns were answered today Butch, Christmas spending was abysmal.
It all comes back to consumer confidence. Turnbull is getting a mention today, from a liberal senator.

Why would they want Rudd back?

Simple, Juliar is so bad.

I'm amazed how so many have forgotten how much Rudd was hated. Remember 'Rudd the Dudd'? Julia and Kevin are equally unsatisfactory, they've had their chance and both blown it.

But I guessing when the election rolls around it won't be Abbott, it's going to be Joe Hockey in the race.

Why do you all want to help Labor by giving them good advice? They have lied to us and shafted our economy.Let them die by their own sword.They deserve it.

A new party that does not take corporate donations is an absolute necessity.Next we need to create a more diverse media.Break up the media cartels and get the ABC to start telling the truth.

The top driver for consumer confidence is financial security, as people don't place as much concern on spending money, if they know they can replace it.

They'd this either by having sound investments, or a secure, long term job.

At present, they don't even if the banks will pass on any reductions on interest rates, if RBA cuts them.

I doubt much will change here, at least in the short term, if at all, as I fear we have gone to far now and caused to much uncertainty in the business world.

Business owners will not take risk if the gains are not there.

Fix this and you will go a long way towards a recovery.

Come on Arjay. Stop reading comics. Shafted our economy, so what would you change.

I doubt it will be Hockey sbr, he was with Turnbull in the global warming camp.

Once the US have chucked out Obama, largely for his backing of the global warming scam, & encouraging the EPA to go overboard in radical environmentalism, none who have backed it here, will be like to lead any party, except the ratbag greens. We should not be too hard on those who lacked the math/physics to see through the scam, although they should never be a leader, but those who pushed it should be forever shunned. They will be likely to be conned again.

You're right, that Rudd & Gillard are about equal in the dislike stakes, neither would attract votes from any but the rusted on. I can't imagine any reason, but desperation, for anyone to back his return, but I suppose desperation is reasonable for Labor folk, who have watched Julia for a while.

Labour could bring back Mark Latham. Julia was one of his major backers.

achieve more positive outputs.
Lexi,
more ? please explain ?

The more 579 posts,the more he reveals his ignorance.He's like Belly who will go down with the ship of Labor while those at the pyramid of their cesspool of corruption,shaft him and their loyal good hard working honest followers.

Dear GrahamY,

Looks like it is up to me to be the contrarian.

I would have him back, not without trepidation certainly, but I would be happy to give him another shot.

That could be put down to nostalgia but I do have a soft spot for principled visionaries and Rudd for a while had that quality. He was the reason I voted Labour for the first time in over ten years.

I took my kids out of school and headed to Canberra for the Apology staying in the local caravan park and I have to tell you it ranks up there in formative experiences. We saw Julia put the stake into the heart of Work Choices the next day. A few months later we went to see him at a Community Cabinet in a school in a very depressed area near us. A few months further on, quite unannounced, we received a cheque for a dental check up for my children. These things mattered.

During the GFC he didn't pile money into banks but spread it to ordinary people, sought to improve schools and put insulation in houses including those who might not otherwise have afforded it.

You may sneer at the Community Summit but it was visionary and I have a very conservative uncle who was an invitee and was quite inspired by it, you may also have sneered at Rudd with pen and paper in hand taking down notes from angry insulation suppliers but to the ordinary Joe damn that was good stuff.

There is a sense that the vision was stripped away by the pragmatic, bought politicians from both sides including Gillard.

I have some quite conservative folk on both sides of the family who are still supportive of him including my wife.

So when you claim "Rudd failed comprehensively as Prime Minister, mostly because he didn't have any plans for what he would do once he got there - getting there was enough." it doesn't ring true with what we saw and experienced through his prime ministership.

Csteele, if you value symbolism over substance then Rudd might have achieved something, but I don't, and neither do most Australians. What benefits did the apology bring most Aborigines? The ones at the tent embassy will tell you they are no better off. Which ideas from the summit were implemented? Which ideas from the summit even if implemented would have made any difference? How many more kids can think better or understand the world better because of new school halls, or new computers (a fair chunk of which haven't been delivered yet)?

Why throw tax payers money at taxpayers when they didn't need it thrown and it could have been saved to make them wealthier in the long term?

Do you know why he never threw money at Australian banks? Because none of them needed the money that their overseas cousins did. If they had he wouldn't have been playing hard ball. He ponied up the money for the guarantee pretty quickly (as he should have, although less generously). Government loans would have been easy if they'd been demanded.

I'll give him marks for bringing some dental care under Medibank, although I don't personally see any of that money.

And he started the roll back of employment to the bad old days before even Labor's reforms of the 80s. The Liberals were silly to bring in work choices, but there was a whole raft of reform before then that they introduced that was working. Work Choices gave Labor the chance to jettison all the reforms because Rudd and now Gillard are owned by vested interests that saw the last 30 years of reform as a threat.

csteele,Rudd is an narcissist and extemely arrogant.He grooms himself impeccably.These are the signs of a very insecure person who covers his inadaquacies with image without substance.This makes him suseptable to all manner of diversion,perversion and unintended corruption.He believes in his image and not in himself.

That said,I agree,let him destroy Labor.

Rudd and the Juliar Pace Makers
I like it ,I like it,
I like the way you put your fingers up my care,
And I like the way,you take me in,
And I like the way,you suck me in,
When you're ethics ain't there.

I like it,I like it,
I like the words you say,
And all the things untrue,
And I like the way,
You tell me a lie,
And I like the way,
Your're winkin' your eye,
And I know,I like me-ee,
You know I like me.

Do that again,
You're drivin' me insane,
Kiss me again,
That's another thing I like me for,

I like it ,I like it,
I like the funny feeling,
You being less free,
And I like it more with every day,
And I like it always,
Hearing you say,
You're liking it too-oo.
You're likin' too.

here's the music; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOYOJAczH0k

It really doesn't bother me what Kevin Rudd thinks of himself. What greatly concerns me is that there are people out with voting power who for some inexplicable reason would have him back. The mind boggles.

Rudd is a media salesman, just like Beaty was and it is for this reason that he has popularity.

Now he did have vision, however, he lacked, or better still, labor lacked, the ability to implement and this was the reason for so many failures.

You see it's the whole labor/union way of thinking, protect the worker at any cost.

Now that's fine, but what about the job creator, they first need assurances that they will make money, otherwise the risk of business outweighs the gains, hence the slow down in business take-up

IR laws have crippled this country, but they didn't listen.

Now their fundamental error was not listening to the experts and just going off like a bull at a gate.

This is generally due to the fact that very few, if any, have built a business, now they may have run something that was built for them, but running something and building something are very different.

The stimulus.
Should have been in the from of a restricted debit card, with a use by date. Cigs, grog and gambling not allowed. Use it or loose it! Now that would have been better.

Better still, use the money to create jobs, anything other than the waste they resided over. TWICE!

Insulation.
Again, nothing wrong with the thought, but should have been handed to field experts to plan and implement.

Existing operators should have been given funding to expand, rather than the local plumber or gardener becoming an instant millionaire, while at the same time making it almost impossible for the everage punter to get a tradie.

More billions wasted.

Copenhargen, his ultimate brain fart.

For some reason he wanted to be the first, why, because he was arragant.

Even today we have a carbon tax, from the smallest omitted that dwarfs anything else in the world. But at what cost!

You see, they (llabor) don't care about the cost, they just want the attention.

It stands to reason if you completely stuff things up, even the slightest improvement appears to be a mile stone of an achievement.

Continued

Continued
IR laws.
They have got the balance wrong.

On the one hand they have left many sectors untouched, yet, they have crippled truism and hospitality.

Many mums would don the apron at the local caffee on a Sunday morning, leaving dad to spend some quality time with the kids.

Mums were happy with the pay, dad was happy, the caffee owner and the customer were also happy, but labor and the unions saw better.

They thought that the mum was giving up her Sunday morning so should be rewarded for it.

The result being, those mums no longer have that extra money coming in, the caffee has had to close, or employ juniors, most of whom don't even drink coffee, so don't really understand why it has to be so perfect and the customer has to accept second rate service.

If you ask most young people, how is your day going, they will usually say something like, I hope it's not to busy, or, I Finnish in seven minutes.

It's because they don't value the job lime the mums did.
Continue

Another doozy is the outsourcing of road workers jobs.

Why don't councils employ them like they used to.

They earn say $25 per hour, yet cost the tax payer more like $45 per hour.

I think all government work should be done by employees, not contractors simply collecting the fat in the middle.

Just last night I drove from western QLD to north Bris, passed no fewer than 15 roadwork sites, all had one thing in common, idle workers, standing around in groups chatting, while just a few did the work. All at double time no dought, as it was close to midnight.

The government don't care cause they just pay the bills. The workers don't care cause they just fill in the time sheet and the contractors don't care cause they just submit the bills.

Now here's some food for thought.

Rudd flogged Howard

Gillard shafted Rudd and her popularity boomed.

She then proceeded to continue labor's wasteful ways.

Gillard got flogged at the polls and, if not for the desperate measures, the broken deal with Wilki, would be in opp now, most likely as a back bencher, if at all.

So, it would appear that Rudd would be a better choice than Gillard, and I recon should he return his popularity would spike. Not from me however, as I can never forgive them for the carnage they have caused.

The only comforting thing about it all is that the next elction should be won, not lost, as is usually the case.

Dear GrahamY,

Never thought I would say this but I think I'm getting an inkling of how Pauline Hanson supporters felt. The political commentariat of which you are a major player Graham will tell us how delusional we are and what a disaster Rudd was, it's just that poll after poll indicates there are one hell of a lot of Australians who just aren't buying it.

One take is that we are all mad but another is we saw a man who was prepared to listen to and look out for ordinary folk. Perhaps you are too close to the action to have seen the view we did but that doesn't make it any less real.

And you may well be dismissive of the symbolism of the Apology and I will concede you have some cause, particularly around the lack of positive results on the ground, but let me be very clear on this, the emotions I saw first hand being displayed in the Great Hall and outside by indigenous Australians on that day showed me just how deeply that symbolism mattered to these people, and to me personally. 

Cont..

Cont..

Further I wouldn't be too complacent about our banks. There were some very solid overseas institutions that went by the wayside.

We have a fair sized housing bubble in this country with some of the highest prices in the world. The GFC was one hell of a large pin headed straight for that bubble. If we had suddenly lost half a million jobs and the foreclosures started rolling in then I don't care how strong you think our banks were there would have been blood spilt.

You also might not have much of an inkling on how much that school improvement funding mattered. My children attend one of the most dilapidated schools in our area. It is truly a shocker yet I know there are plenty of them around. It meant a hell of a lot to parents to see new infrastructure going in. It told us the Federal government cared.

I could keep reeling them off but I'm not trying to convince you of anything, rather to answer your question as to why there are people like me who would be prepared to give Rudd another go. You can take the answers for what they are or keep telling us we are idiots.

keep telling us we are idiots.
csteele,
this will continue until proven otherwise.

Interesting article from the Courier Mail where Madonna King gives some more reasons why you wouldn't want Rudd back - in his haste to promote himself he is actually damaging the Labor campaign in Queensland http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/loose-cannons-fire-up-tricky-campaign/story-fnbwr276-1226262245551.

She notes that his public popularity is in inverse proportions to his popularity within caucus.

CSteele,

Rudd is far more popular than Gillard, as is Turnbull, however, both of their popularities stem from outside their parties. Rudd with Labor voters is neck and neck with Gillard, and within the coalition Turnbull is significantly behind Abbott.

As the PM is expected to manage the cabinet and caucus, his ability to work with colleagues is paramount. Rudd is openly despised among his colleagues and Turnbull is not seen as a team player.

The return of either to leadership would not be good for either party and thus is unlikely

Dear Shadow Minister,

I hear you and Madonna King from the Murdoch press link Graham supplied also reiterated;

"The problem is that his public popularity is inversely proportional to his popularity within the party - and it is the party caucus, not the public, that determines the Labor Party leadership."

The public however does have a role in determining the leader since if the Party gives us one who isn't agreeable to us we might just take the reins of power from them.

And I am old enough to remember how absolutely despised John Howard was internally during his various tilts at the leadership. A certain intercepted telephone conversation by our former premier Jeff Kennett illustrated that impressively.

Sure I would have liked to see a Rudd who acknowledged his errors in judgement and missteps in people management but who would bother with a purely pragmatic version? He was who he was warts and all and there is a fair chunk of Australia who doesn't think he got a fair shot and resent the smugness of those who toppled him. If they are the ones who would be so terribly upset if he returned I don't think many of us would really care. 

Dear csteele,

I've just read an interesting article in
The Age. I'll quote a bit of it here:

"Despite the media's relentless speculation about
the PM's leadership and while holding a minority
government together during a period of major
reform the PM continues to be more popular then
her opponent."

Perhaps what we should be asking is not "Why would
they want Rudd back," but as The Age article asks:

"How much longer will the Coalition put up with
consistently unpopular key people such as Tony Abbott
and Joe Hockey when far more popular and competent
people like Malcolm Turnbull are binding their time
in the wings?"

The Age tell us that:

"The unpopularity of Tony Abbott and Co., will
probably make the Coalition unelectable
at the next election."

Therefore perhaps what we should ask as The Age suggests is:

"When will journalists pick up on this story and apply
some heat where it belongs?"

I do find these polls interesting Lexi.

When Yahoo!7 ran a poll last Friday, asking who was the preferred PM, Abbott V Gillard, the response was 35% Gillard, 65% Abbott. As this was probably not what they wanted, they then ran Gillard V Rudd, & Gillard got about the same percentage. You & csteele are a couple of the very few who want her.

If you continue paying so much attention to these lefty rags you will be lulled into a false sense of security, believing either Rudd or Gillard have some chance of reelection against Abbott. Still, it is probably good for Abbott if you believe that.

Personally I am starting think he is going to be one of our very best PMs ever, with the probability of exceeding Howard in length of time in office.

Lexi,

Quoting letters to the newspaper now?

I am sure that it is the fondest wish of Labor voters that Turnbull replaces Juliar, as under his tenure he pretty much let KRudd get away with everything. When Abbott came in KRudd crashed and burned, and the polls have gone from 54/46 to Labor to completely reverse.

Abbott is the preferred Leader within the coalition voters and caucus.

I would be happy for Krudd or Juliar to continue to lead Labor to defeat.

Hasbeen Yahoooooo is what it says, but it's always interesting to find something that agrees with yourself. Is that one vote one person or vote as many times as you like. There is a bit of chatter going on at the moment, about Turnbull. I think he may be feeling the depth of the water.

Dear SM,

I cited an article from The Age. And the PM is
the preferred leader. We shall see what happens
at the next election. In the meantime you can
speculate all that you like. The PM will get on
with doing her job.

Lexi,

I tracked the "article" which was under the Letters section. The "author" has no other articles on record. The give away was "When will journalists pick up on this story" which implied that he was not.

"The PM will get on with doing her job." That would make a refreshing change.

Considering that it is extremely unusual for an opposition leader to be anywhere near the PM in the preferred PM ratings, that Juliar is only ahead within statistical error is not an endorsement on how she is performing.

AU as a whole is performing admirably, as the rest of the world knows. Julia's contributions in the face of adversity is extremely strong. We are in an enviable position, the worst that could happen is a far right govt; come along and put the whole economy off balance. Our treasurer is the best in the world, and recognized as such.
The opposition is best left where it is, Mr Abbott has radical views of economics, which is to feed money into the pockets of the wealthy few. This nation does not need to follow, the type of thinking that gina r=haret deserves a tax break. With-out the labor govt; AU will not have an automobile industry, a national broadband system, incentive to get off oil and coal, or anything else that progresses Australia as a nation.
We do not need a govt that favors the few elite, we need a govt; that favors AU as a whole. Thank you.

Dear SM,

I'll leave you to your negativity.
I prefer to be a bit more optimistic (and grateful)
to a government that saw this country through the
GFC - and has been building on the infrastructure
and the asset side of the ledger that was so depleted
under the Howard government. I frankly can't find anything
good on offer from the Opposition - but as I've stated
earlier - to each his own. You do what you must - and
I shall do likewise.

Cheers.

Lexi,

And I will leave you to your obvious optimism towards Labor and negativity towards the coalition.

SM that from u is incredible. Joe Hockey says he didn't say it , then he did say it but it was a mistake, a 70 billion $ mistake, these people can not afford mistakes. Not one question on the economy, 3 questions from 3 women. Tony says nothing. He then heads to a primary school to get a few tips on economics.

Simply being the envy of the world does not mean you are in great shape, especially when the rest of the world is in dire straights.

The most accurate guide to any governments performance is what they have achieved In during their occupation in office.

7000 jobs created.
So how many jobs have been lost, because our unemployment rate has increased?

Have they created 7000 but lost 7500?

If so, is this actually an achievement.

Add to this the number of jobs created due to the likes of government stuff ups or their inability to control our boarders. And all of a sudden the picture doesn't look quite so rosy.

But hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

And 579, keep up the good work, they need all the support they can muster.

the only way to remove howard
was to out howard...howards poplularist spin

his poll numbers were allways down[except when he caught the wave of populism...and subverted anyone else gaining on its energy]

to explain more is to give the mindless further ideas
cause you cant go wrong..underestimating people
willing to react by emotion/media manipulation

politics has become as corrupted
the whole system needs elimination of peer revieuw
making trusts...pay their way..not a mates bonus..govt handout way

just as the 24/7 businesss cycle..howard used
to force work...on weekends/play/sleep times[24/7]

*killed the sabbath
killed..888 mate

they sold the silver/privatised the bank.srervice system
and now we got govt..held hostage to corperate lobby
and a rush to control the media[again]
watch the deal..on patent right
extend their rights...a/gain

selling/out..the people
for the legal person..[corperation]
obeying the faceless men..and others beuro-roc_rat/isations

serve the dead
to suck the life blood..from the living

but it seems...only 144.000 of ya need to pay
have a nice day...why dont you lot simply fade away

when are you lot going to wake up?
this rudd destraction..is the calm before the storm

just before greece defaults[and the euro blows out]
just before israel goes its earthy spring

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/02/08/media-preparing-infrastructure-war-iran-81991/

Major western news outlets,
including FOX, CBS, NBC and Reuters,
rent rooftops, prepare emergency broadcast infrastructure,
and deploy senior producers..*to Israel to cover war with Iran.

watch the blackswan dive
or the red and black...
[blue or white/...faulse flag black flag event

that even so hides ever greater sins

6 Insane Conspiracies Hiding Behind Non-Profit Groups

Billed as a libertarian-style group
supporting the free choice of consumers,
The Center for Consumer Freedom runs websites and ad campaigns opposing food-related attacks on our liberty.

So for instance, when other groups
concerned about childhood obesity..push to ban toys from Happy Meals or ask the Girl Scouts to sell healthier snacks,..The Center for Consumer Freedom is the one who jumps in

and says people should be able to eat
what they want, dammit.

So it comes off as kind of a group of regular dudes
restoring some common sense to a politically correct world.

Seems pretty reasonable...excuse for army/geddon.
http://www.cracked.com/article_18879_6-insane-conspiracies-hiding-behind-non-profit-groups.html

but heck why bother
if you cant be botherd
to see..through the veil

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/02/terrorism-by-muslim-americans-is-a-minuscule-threat-to-public-safety.html

the phonies
media didnt recant as faulse
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fakealqaeda.php

you can never know..whats going to happen
if you dont know..what really happens

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

rudd wont be back
but dont tell juliar

579,

The $70bn figure comes from a coalition workshop on cost savings where the headline objective was to identify $70bn of waste within the Labor budget, and to identify the costs of items the coalition would like to support. It does not in any way represent the coalition's budget, forecasts or policy, anymore than the concepts discussed at the tax forum represent Labor policy.

As for the economy, the carbon tax will be the one of biggest handbrakes to the economy in 2012, and I believe it was raised several times by the coalition with no response from Labor.

Why should the coalition not question the prime minister on the corruption and sleaze of one of her MPs and the dirty tricks emanating from her own office?

579 is like Belly ie Labor tragics.Either they have some financial interest in the Party or job or they are just blinded by ideology.

There is no point in debating this mentality.

Arjay you are so right.

You see the fundamental flaw in labor's thinking is that they are re-active, as opposed to business, that must be pro-active in order to survive.

What I mean by this is that labor look at what has happened and say what great shape we are in, while a business doesn't care so much about what happened last year, as their focus is on the year/years ahead.

Now a business can continue to trade, regardless of profits, provided they have to capacity to either continue borrowing, or, to keep propping it up with funds.

So if you look at this business, while it may still have all it's employees and appear to be operating normally, it's not until you check the balance sheet that the real picture is revealed.

Well, this is exactly what labor is doing, they are bragging about our economy, and what a great job they are doing while at the same time being In denial about how they achieved this.

I challenge the likes of 579 to ask them selves, where were we placed before labor took office?

And, where will we be in another four odd years if no serious changes are made?

I would also remind them that labor are very focussed on a return to surplus, which means no more billions to splash around.

But I think you are right Arjay, you simply can't argue with logic like that and, it wasn't my future they are playing with I wouldn't give a toss.

But as usual, they are not financially liable for their actions, or the damage they may cause.

You know the best way to look good, is to be surrounded by others that look bad.

It doesn't really mean you are good, it just means you are in a better position than the others.

This is exactly where labor and their followers are coming from.

In essense, they have done a terrible job, wasting billions on failure after failure, it's just that the other countries have done worse.

We can only go on the figures at hand, and AU is doing just fine. The last 3 months trading conditions improved, profitability, employment, and trading conditions. Terms of trade increased 42% since 2004 191 billion investment $ awaiting approval. 236 billion underway.

Mr Abbott is a desperate man, sprouting rhetoric in melbourne today, at the same time our federal Govt and the Victorian govt; is talking to Alcoa at Geelong. Alcoa is having trouble with the high AU dollar and a shrinkage in Aluminium prices. Of course Tony is blaming the carbon price, in which Alcoa have almost been accredited for. Deliberate misinformation coming from a desperate man, whose time for destabilizing the incumbent govt; expired before xmas. Feeding the press on lies, is about as low as one can get. In parliament this noalition will not even mention the economy of AU, knowing they will get belted.

Alcoa is busy reviewing its future operations, part of what it is discussing with the government is protection against the carbon tax.

Alcoa cited the high dollar, low metal prices and "input costs" the biggest of which is electricity. Notably Rio and BHP are starting to write down their smelters prior to the carbon tax.

I would imagine that the negotiations with the government would go badly if Alcoa directly mentioned the carbon tax.

SM Alcoa has been given free carbon credits. to the tune of around 90%
Alcoa has pulled out of America also. The high dollar plus the falling commodity price for aluminium has decreased their viability.

Alcoa is not a big emitter, it buys huge quantities of electricity, which at the wholesale price is set to nearly double.

Carbon credits are not much use.

The Victorian coalition govt is in the process of eliminating 5000 public sector jobs. At the same time as talking to Alcoa.
Alcoa is already being subsidized $300 / ton for electricity. Alcoa doesn't want to maintain the plant. The horse has been dead for some time. Mr Abbott is not going to back the abolition of subsidy of medical insurance for well healed people. He says they need the welfare.

we have bribed them for their jobs
and for their favour

but we dont need aluminium no more
sure its great for blasting shuttles into space
and window frames...and for diabetus soft drink cans
and underarm perspirment prevention...but its a sickly metal

costing us the earth
old refining...but its power days is gone
heck they even had so sell the pink panther rights
let them stop making aluminim buggy whips...at huge subsidy by state

its dead or dying
rip

You all have to realise that Politics is like World Championship Wrestling.It is all a big game of deceiving the masses while the few, profit from our confusion.

As Gerald Celente says,both parties of the left and right buddy up for a drink and make deals behind closed doors,while we argue about the bait non issues of religion,race ,social/economic status,which they feed us.

Gday GY back again, and not hiding on this one.
Kevin 07 took an election from a man desperate to give it away.
While many will not agree, as unpopular as he was Howard's Work Choices, only lost him the election.
Without that he would,still be Prime Minister.
Navel gazing, if asked to say what I truly think, my party, the ALP, was not ready to govern.
We have grown in office, but the taint of Latham/Crean still haunts us.
Gillard and Fitzgibbon, along with Crean still travel a road not wanted by the party.
So why Rudd?
About 10% of voters vote for appearance and personality.
And while Gillard is improving, not enough, she brings at least 25%who never ever will vote for her.
Against opinions of many here I still think we will see both ex leaders lead again.
We should remember John Howard once said his return was not possible.
And that ,in my view, both current leaders are disliked by most.

Yes I agree with you Belly.

You know this up coming election will be very rare as it will be an election that is actually won, as opposed to most recent ones where by they have been lost.

As for work choices,, not that I want to fire up the debate, but I just wonder how those who had jobs, then lost them once the new IR laws came in, now feel about WC.

Rechtub, this much is true.
If Australia was not so divided by dislike of both Gillard and Abbott, both are disliked.
I truly think, we would never have seen either in leadership rolls.
If not Rudd who?
For me, first and only,even in front of Rudd Shorten.
He has not yet got the public numbers.
Who in conservative ranks if not Abbott?
If not for global warming Turnbull, surely.
Hockey once came to my mind, he never ever should get a run.
Pyne? lucky to be a Minister.
Like Labor, invisible great talent is in Liberal ranks in the house now.
I think they, too on both sides, are on stand by while wrong people rule/control the Parliament.
WC Rechtub, its end, was needed, I doubt IR reform will ever not be needed.
Or that what replaced WC is perfect.
It should constantly be reviewed and re crafted.
But I offer this as evidence, most true conservatives Liberals,never want to bring it back.
Reform yes, but class warfare? WC was not replaced by a system that cost jobs, job loss is and always will be, subject to many influences.
Australian Dollar has cost more than the GFC.
We however must, just must, remember our economy under Labor and Liberal owes much to freeing up the banks and markets.
If we turn that around, interfere with our dollar we go to places that will hurt us all.

News polls have got to be stacked. Mr Abbott is said to be a better economic manager than Julia. How would anyone know that Abbott would be a better economic manager. It's a stacked participation. Abbott would sack 10,000 public service jobs for a start. As the coalition in vic; are in the process of doing, and at the same time talking to Alcoa.

579,

I guess then that Galaxy, Nielsen, Essential Research are also stacked. After the Carbon tax and the damage it will do to the economy, Labor has lost most of its economic credibility.

This may help you understand.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/julia-gillards-economic-appeal-fading/story-e6frg75f-1226269126858

So 579, is it only now that it is stacked, or, has it always been stacked. Interesting that you have only now mentioned it.

You had best grab your life jacket old mate, cause die hards like you will no doubt go down with the ship, and believe me, it's sinking.

Belly, as I have said before, I had no problem with WC, however, given the backlash it must have been bad.

All I can say is that a an employer, I never used it to my advantage.

As for IR costing jobs, to right it has.

These laws have cut through the hospitality industry, like a hot knife in butter.

Why on earth every seven day industry is not treated the same is beyond me.

How does everyone know Abbott's a better economic manager than Julia? They know no country could produce 2 such clowns, even if one is an import.

But you're right 579, he's a piker. If he were a good economic manager it would be a hundred & ten thousand public servants given the flick. That should get it down to about an overmanning of 200%.

With any luck, we might just get him in in time to stop the Greek disease in Oz. What do you reckon, a 30% reduction in public service pensions sounds fair, if a little generous?

No carbon price has started yet. Upper class welfare, is in the firing line, and rightly so. Welfare reform for the well to do.
Company tax rates have been cut, Butch so you can start butcherin again.
The noalition have no hope when it comes to the economy, Hockey has posted a 70 billion black hole, and it's unexplainable.
The art of running a country is to keep employment as high as possible, by making opportunities as attractive as possible. You can't do that with putting public service out of a job. There is transformation going on, only to be expected with the high dollar, and world downturn.
But this govt; has it's finger on the pulse and we are doing fine.
You can't run an economy by giving rich people tax breaks, those days are over.
With the latest investment going on 236 billion, labour will be in short supply again.

A lot better to pay them the dole to do nothing, then pay them top money to do nothing, then have to pay for buildings for them to do nothing in, followed by a huge pension for doing nothing.

Ask Greece about what that gets you.

579, any fool can make thing look good, all they need do is keep throwing money at it.

It's just a shame they are throwing money that we don't have.

579, mate, please do not ever look for under standing from every one polled.
And unlike some who vote as you and I do, know my side at any cost leads to defeat.
I would not swim in the pool after Abbott or Gillard.
Before? yes leaving a little present.
Most Aussies would gladly pee in that pool.
But , hung Parliament, Greens power, Abbott's negativity, drive discontent on both sides.
Look at every post there, some are pure straw hat bib and brace overalls gum boot wearing redneck offers.
But look too at Labors great/good/bad/awful members,who are blind to this truth.
Australians, including ALP voters, would take Kermit the frog instead of Gillard.
Only in the ALP caucus has she the numbers.
Like two drunks out side a pub late at night Abbott and Gillard prop each other up.
One falls the other must.

Belly, there is a fine line between negativity and honesty and, we wouldnt be in this mess had madam PM simply accepted the fact that she was not popular.

Surely this can't go on for much longer.

I'm looking forward to the day when we have an opposition that's supportive of government policies, that never seeks to emphasise the negatives of the other sides policy, that only ever uses question time for questions about the welfare of the country and never as a tool to attack the incumbant's.

Clearly the coalition can't do that, Labor could not manage it in the past but some of their supporters seem to think they can and will do so now so the sooner the parties swap roles the better for the country.

Then we can have an opposition that not so negative about the government.

- or could it be that the all the complaints, attacks etc will be Ok when it's Labor doing it and only bad when it's the coalition?

R0bert

RObert/Rechtub, lets re visit that stolen bike.
I think, honestly, Gillard, and those still supporting her, far too many, are wrong.
But that Honestly, much of LABORS policy's are the best.
We, like Liberals, are loaded down with fools.
Take the loony left leader in my party, please take him.
Both Bishops and Pyne best serve our country by going away too.
Here in my view is the heart of this, Gillard won SOME support out side Parliament.
From the under informed, those who judge on personality.
Within? hatred of Rudd as much as anything drove the knife men.
They , EGO is a dirty word, are bound and determined not to admit they got it wrong.
That act of GUTLESS betrayal of the ALP and its supporters/members
Keeps a woman with poll number much worse the Rudd in power.
In my first post, after her knifing Rudd, I warned she too would go, the same way.
Politics is numbers she could not win a raffle, ever.
Will the ALP sink as in NSW? it will without doubt, unless it unloads her.
She, in my view lied today.
If the challenger was other than Rudd, unless she has made threats about by elections she would be rolled today.
Shorten is the one but Rudd comes, for the time being, with a fan club.

Belly agreed that there are some on both sides who do a lot of harm.

It appears that those working for Julia have some run's on the board for making some politically significant decisions without her approval
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3429873.htm

Really obvious that the question was not answered, the closest seems to be "JULIA GILLARD: Well I didn't direct it. And this was a tense few days for me and the Government. So I can't specifically say to you when I came to know about the speech. It could have been on the Wednesday night, it could have been before."

Even that could be a dodge in terms of wording, she does not quite say she does not know when she came to know about the speech, rather that she can't specifically say but does not actually tell us why she can't say?

The whole culture of politics has got so embedded in spin and distortion that responses like that don't seem to far out of the ordinary.

Shouldn't it be possible to say, "I don't recall when I became aware of it but I do know that I played no part in requesting it be written" as seems to be implied in the answers (but not said)?

R0bert

Robert,

"I'm looking forward to the day when we have an opposition that's supportive of government policies, that never seeks to emphasise the negatives of the other sides policy, that only ever uses question time for questions about the welfare of the country and never as a tool to attack the incumbant's. "

Hasn't happened yet, probably never will. The opposition are called that for a reason.

SM obviously some Labor party supporters think that Labor will be like that in opposition given how bothered they are by the Coalition not being supportive of ALP policy. Calling them the noalition etc.

They must have been horrified by the negative campaign that Labor and the Unions ran against Work Choices, the continued attacks on GST, continued specualtion on Howard retiring and handing over to Costello etc during the Howard era and clearly expect better from their side now.

R0bert

Sounds like we need Alan Austin back here to give you a run down, again.
You must play with what you have and we have Julia, and the worlds best treasurer. Abbott is again sprouting negativity today. He can't talk economy, why doesn't he pick some bad points about the economy, nothing to pick about i suppose.
The most important topic is when Julia's speech was written, that is real good stuff, just what everyone wants to know.
You are just going to suffer a while longer, before there's an election, and another hung parliament,

Why do you have to be a leftie to think Turnbull would make a good leader.
He has his head screwed on, a republican, the noalition would be best advised to the fact he would be a far better leader for them. He has economic skills that is lacking from the 3 stoogers of the noalition. With Hockey's black hole of 70 billion $ the noalition needs reform urgently, and this in Australia's interest to have an influential opposition.
You can't go to an election with a bunch of hasbeen's, trained by mr Howard. They are that far to the right, they are blinded, by their top end of town supporters, and dangerous. As we have experienced in the past, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. and this makes them dangerous.

Shadow Minister, RObert I am not stirring, trying to be honest.
You may not agree, but work choices was as bad as Labor said it was.
It turned conservatives to vote Labor.
It, not Rudd, beat John Howard.
People, forcibly signed agreements taking sick leave and penalty rates away, for FIVE YEARS.
DENY IF YOU WILL, BUT I target Labor often.
ABBOTT, leads the most negative team in my lifetime.
Except SM my slings at Labor, but review your inability to focus on the lost nature of Tony Abbott.
Why would they want Rudd back? anyone but Gillard is my answer
Turnbull? any one, please any one, but Abbott, give this country a break!
two unworthy leaders of two party's afraid to say we got that wrong.

Belly I was having a go at those who continue to bleat about Abbott being negative as though Labor oppositions have somehow been noted for their support of Coalition policy when the coalition is in government. At those who think any opposition is in the habit of giving detailed and costed policy well before an election.

A massive case of spin to focus on negativity given Labors past behaviour. There was plenty about Work Choices that was good for a lot of employee's as well, stuff that may not have suited the unions.

I know that you see some of the problems and are not one of the dedicated Labor spin merchants.

R0bert

Yesterday, today, tomorrow we will still be talking about Gillards preparation to unseat Kevin Rudd.
We will be talking of her, in ignorance? or with intent? miss informing us about Australia Day, the decent in to madness her staff member and a woman trade unionist from the lower end of the gene pool.
The sight of that Lady, The Representative of the tent Embassy, her uninformed RANT our deputy Prime Minister?
Do not let her off the hook, she like the unionist woman, did not even know Abbott's position!did not know what he said!or that he is not deputy prime minister!
Thread let me have my say, I under stand a Liberal asking it, GY sees him self as Liberal not conservative.
Increasingly I LABOR for life am concerned under Gillard, thousands including me, may be driven by GUTLESS INACTION, to vote informal.
This woman her supporters, must take responsibility for that.

I must hand it to Juliar as a lawyer. Her statement that she only decided to depose Rudd on the last day is like an assassin saying that he only made the decision to pull the trigger at the last moment.

The real question is how long had she been preparing. With the acceptance speech being written 2 wks ahead of time, and the polls being circulated, deposing Rudd was certainly on her mind. She made the final decision when she knew the numbers.

Shadow Ministers post above mine here gives us the answer to the question asked.
We must replace Gillard because, she guilty or not she is not believed or trusted by Australia.
Because true or not such mud sticks to her, because she lacks the understanding, A FATAL FLAW! to put her own defense in terms the public want to and need to hear.
Real doubt exists, not that she EVER should have replaced Rudd,not that she SHOULD GO NOW, but that she, in any way planned her knifing.
NSW ALP then a dirty word, unclean, and its imported problem child, standing by her side.
Drafted a plan,pushed pulled the party to behead Rudd.
And told us? it was because of polling!
Why then not polling now? far worse, watch Gillards supporters claim changing the leadership would bring about the NSW illness.
But know those who knifed Rudd have not yet cleaned the blood from two such events in NSW.
The very ones they, the perpetrators, warn us about with Gillard.
SOLIDARITY? with Gillard? each other, or the party.
Who truly thinks guilty or not Gillard could win a raffle?
Denials warnings bluff use what ever tactics you wish.
But with great certainty in the end Gillard will go must go.
Suck it up my union mates, party first not ego.

Graham, Yes, like you I'm completely at odds to why they (who ever this means) would want Rudd back, or why Gillard even gave him a portfolio after they sacked him. What went down in meeting when Gillard approached him with their secret poll? Did Rudd threaten them with a counter move? How could he have any bargaining power at all after his abysmal performance as PM. I can only surmise that we would have a very different political climate if they had replaced Rudd with Faulkner or, anyone else, rather than Gillard because the move to a female PM left them open to attacks of credibility. (I'm not being sexist here, just making what I consider to be a realistic observation about Australia's political culture, which is predominately male oriented). Gillard was perhaps the only nuetral candidate available because the right wing factions could not agree on supporting their own candidates, or indeed, were unable to put themselves forward (Combet, Shorten, et al). A return to Rudd would not create stability, if anything it would simply add more fuel to the fire and the dysfunctionalism of Labor factionalism. Gillard does not have the political skills to consolidate and calm Labor 's internal factional chaos. Abbott must do much more than be a contrarian and spell out a vision for the nation but once again, like Gillard, he appears not to have the skills required. Keating recently lamented that the absence of a grand narrative for the nation was eroding Australia's liberal democracy (or words to this effect). Where to from here?...however neither Labor or Liberal can define with some clarity where we are all right now. This political obscurantism is defining every policy debate and incident on a daily basis. I look forward to anything that will rid us of this deadlock

Rainier politics is more complex than that.
It is the spectators, those not much interested and not well informed who say who is elected.
Your view of Rudd is not shared by them.
Even I a student of politics, am unsure just why he froze.
And who else was involved in his failure.
I am content he has the intelligence if returned to change and rebuild.
If he was a cricketer he would be picked on form,as Gillard would be dropped.
Shorten is ready, but the public may not be, for him.
Rudd comes with fans/polling that gets him the baggy green.
Sexist? I think we see females well represented and if it was true we are sexist, the reverse is true ,Labor over compensates for women.
Gillard would not have become leader.
She, once from the left, is indeed lucky to be PM she was never the right person.
I ask this, as I concede she is unfit to hold her job, why is Abbott not in the spotlight for conservatives.
Can they not see he is an insult to true Liberalism?

Agree with most of your observations Belly, but I do think you give Rudd much more intellectual capacity than he deserves - he was senior bureaucrat in the Beattie Qld after Joh was ousted and was a nasty vindictive control freak. Suddenly in Qld we had all these working class Labor politicians, most of them (with the exception of unionists and lawyers) were rusted on National party voters.

Rudd does not have the intellectual prowess to lead a reformationist party. It’s just not in him because he’s never experienced a working class culture in his adult life. His narcissistic control freak psychology is at odds with the leadership skills that require one to trust the judgement of his ministers. I hope he does make a leadership challenge and I hope he loses badly, thus forever putting him in the dust bin of political history as a failed Prime minister. The Australian labor party is in a historic transition moment of political relevance, in much the same manner to The Democrats found themselves - and then spiralled into oblivion. I believe most people at the federal election will not vote for either a Labor or Liberal party, but rather the party that can convince them that they are able to get on with the job of governance for the majority of Australian peoples without the theatrics and game playing we witness of a daily basis. Rudd, Gillard, Abbott, Shorten and others have all shown to that they are incapable of grasping the idea of ‘stable government’ with a sound majority to pass legislation without being hobbled to whims of independents. I just hope the Qld election does not deliver another hung parliament, which would add to confusion everyone is experiencing about 'the role of government'.

I think we agree on some things rainier but maybe not the working class bit.
I most certainly am from that class.
And the school of hard knocks, but demand only a leader who can lead, in the right direction.
I am aware of Rudd's history in Queensland.
We should not forget how popular, for a while, the Goss government was.
True Unionist forever, I want the Union movement, 22% of the population, to not be the controllers of the ALP.
Factions exist, but seem mostly in the interests of leaders not those who create that power, members.
Rudd if he was to be the same man, must not return, but he brings votes.
And an election with Gillard leading is a lemming march.

I this morning, more than most find myself lost.
Not because I inhabit the land of Insomnia.
In fact because of the places that takes me.
This thread was always going to be of great interest to me.
I just in a week,have seen my life's mission, the ALP and Union movement, take paths and actions that concern me.
Yet in all truth, no other garage exists to park myself, and I would not look for one.
Unions, heads, some times so remote from members they could be Martians, Warn not to return to Rudd.
Ministers, Sydney Morning Herald/Goggle news, this morning.
Spread anti Rudd, message, yet one story says it all, he will return to leadership.
I am high maintenance ALP/UNION that term says I toe no line, it often, is used by lessor informed members of both, to tell me to think as they do.
Spam words, without meaning are hurled at me, solidarity, a host of pea and thimble words, even the user uses to hide the need to think.
This morning, every morning, Gillards polling is half Rudd's, yet Rudd we are told went because of bad polling?
Gillard , no matter what, can not win an election, yet my party, driven by self interest, stands willing to remind me, the thousands who think like me, we are only a number.
And THEY CONTROL, we follow orders.
Some of Labors best come from Unions, our worst do too, my party is saying NSW is in the past, it will be the day federal Labor hears the voice of its rank and file.
And the day mug under achievers stop filling safe seats as a reward for? failure.
My mind flys to a left wing Scott who is unsuited to sweep the floors of Parliament.

boil it down to basics belly
the rule is like howard did
to do the unpopularistic stuff first
and then the warm fluffy stuff last

toney..or any other liberal
cant win..[they know it]

they are going to cop this backlash at election time
directly into their pocket..[73 billion has now blown out to 75]
soon..when education gets through..it will be near 90 billion..they must find..to wind back the guilard guile..

ruds numbers arnt that high
[his ego would soon send the number lower than juliars]

libs know thats the only way they can win
but as long as juliar does her left weing thing..from now on
she and alp will be just fine

howards numbers were allways low
untill he caught an issue to surf home on

the abo thing should have worked
just like the children overboard..and the war did before

juliar will have a divided house
but that is better than no house

forget my mate kev
he wont be back

lib pole stirrers..
and a weak media...seving gossip../murder/war
in lue of real news..of the good things..the new

not the same old/same old

Looked hard OUG, found nothing I can agree with in that post.
Liberals, without massive change, have the next election in the bag.
Gillard will, within swing or even male Labor voters ,never win an election.
Many see hope but fewer do not know the fact, Labor, far better than painted is gone.
Rudd Shorten, are the hope I am wrong, others exist equally good but will not,yet, have the numbers.
Australians, many, are cynical by nature, find much to like in empty headed shouted rhetoric.
Hence Tony Abbott his fan club Joe in QLD Barnaby Joyce.
Those bring voters.
Issues like boat people[ I blame Abbott as much as Gillard] see tougher actions win 2 to 1 against go easy policy's.
Have no doubt, Labor on this issue, unless it puts it up again and again, to be defeated, will be removed from office.
Good thoughts and deeds to wards these folk are no vote winner.

THE THIRD WAY
At the end of the day (excuse this over used political cliché) I suppose the best leader for Labor would be the one who is willing lead in both opposition and in government. Oppositions don't ever win government, incumbent governments loose. And if the pollsters in Labor are any good they will instinctively know that a Rudd led government in the next election will be toppled. Gillard and Rudd supporters have only one choice and that is to support a third candidate which would assist in neutering Labor's dysfunctionalism, which is almost always demonstrated every other day. Hoist up a new leader, send Rudd to back benches where he belongs, give Gillard deputy PM and any portfolio she wants, replace Swan with someone who knows how to sell economic policy reforms - make new deals with the independents and show Australians a united Labor party is not impossible.

Rainier that has been done and failed.
I have no doubt, not a bit Bill Shorten is the man we thought Rudd was.
Lets look at the leadership of Latham,Crean, Gillard, a troika.
Each shared a scrambled egg idea they could not bring in to practice.
Gillard best served that group, by being able to more easily hide her true self.
Crean got his chance,He rose on the back of his dads good name and the ACTU.
He came as Lathams shadow, wrong man forever wrong.
Gillard took up the mantle,she never should have.
Attempts will be made by her Crean, Fitzgibbon, [Mr China] to install another of their ilk.
Rudd has an advantage, he is liked, his installation however will see both ex leaders lead.
A Doctor Who like trip in to the past, but a new start for politics.
Shorten at some time soon, will be put up as the third way, he will in my view be a great leader.
But now? he risks much, Rudd comes in the arms of mums and dads who do not like Gillard.
You under estimate that advantage
Seems personal dislike of Rudd blinds Labor to its followers wishes, dangerous that.

Does the public want Rudd back? Who says - with perhaps the exception of QLD? The media is revelling in this latest leak and tweet scandal, doing more the promote the idea than reflect what is happening within the party.

Has everyone forgotten how media manipulative, poll driven, and prima donna his behaviour?

The Apology was a positive move and long overdue, but that was party policy and well supported. Even many of the Libs supported it (apart from those who denied the existence of a stolen generation) albeit having to take the party line publicly.

I'm sure that Rudd will only make the decision to depose Juliar at the last moment. Now that we have more dirty tricks coming from the PM's office, and Wilkie openly backing Rudd, Juliar is beyond redemption.

Currently on the ABC web page the comics look at current Australian media is fun, and true.
Yes media is beating this up.
Those of us around in 1975 and 1974 have seen it before.
That is not a pro Labor propaganda statement, it is truth.
Equally polling tells those of us who will listen, hence not ALP caucus,
Rudd is far more popular than Gillard.
In fact Rudd never was as unpopular outside the party as in caucus.
We can not over look, in not telling Australian, then not now, how bad Rudd was seen, Gillard can never re claim support.
Right about now, intent on an early, and failed challenge, Creans cretins, Gillards Gooses, are launching a get Rudd plan, more ancient news will be seen.
But show me, just how can Gillard come back.
She is gone, this mud slinging may just harm only the party.