http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXS3vW47mOE Gen Wesley Clark was the supreme commander of NATO forces in 1997.You will observe in this short clip that 10 days after 911 there was intent by the US Military to invade 7 Middle Eastern Countries is 5 yrs.Gen Clarke was talking to a General on the joint Chiefs of staff whom he once commanded.

It was revealed to Gen Clark 10 days after 911 that the USA/NATO forces were going to take out 7 countries in 5yrs.ie Iraq,Syria,Lebanon,Libya,Somalia,Sudan and Iran.At that time Gen Clark agreed with the attacks on Afghanistan,but in the light of the 911 attacks and the prevailing evidence at that time,there was no reason to attack these countries.

All these countries have substancial proven oil reserves bar Lebanon & Somalia but there is apparently untapped potential in Somalia yet to be revealed.Iran is ranked 4th,Iraq 5th,Libya 10th,Sudan 21st,Syria 35th out of a total of 97 countries.

Interestingly,Venezuela is ranked No.1 above Saudi Arabia. Chevez has much to worry about.

Syria is an ally to Iran and Lebanon is the thorn in the side of Israel.So this may explain the Western ire towards them.

In this global thirst for oil energy,all of these countries have vultures from both the East and West lusting after their energy, however it is in the interests of ordinary people like us,that the ownership of this energy remain diverse,so that real competition makes it affordable for everyone.

You can also see Gen Wesley Clark,just under Gen Major Stubblebine here, http://patriotsquestion911.com/ questioning like thousands of other professionals and Govt Officials,the serious inadaquacies into the investigation of 911.

While Russia and China may also be a threat to oil rich countries,the West was supposed to be the beacon of freedom in an oppressive world.We look like starting WW3 with the BMIC (Banking Military Industrial Complex) that controls and finances our Govts,dragging us into a new dark age.

Yes,not one comment from dim witted posters on OLO.They don't want to know the truth,let alone confront it.It may take courage and insight beyond the idiot box,or heaven forbid,integrity or vision,that wants to see their children have a better future.

Arjay,

Talking to yourself is the first sign of.....

(Sorry, mate, couldn't resist. It is kinda frustrating when threads are slow to take off :)

Poirot, the madness is in the silence of the criminality that confronts us all.They have stolen our super,savings via scams of magnitude never witnessed in our history.They now look like creating WW3.

We have a few elites trying to monopolise the world's energy/resoures,money supply and not an inkling of awareness let alone protest from the idiocracy.

Are we all just going down without a fight?

Arjay you'd help your case by doing some background checks and a bit of disclosure before using sources such as this.

I've not researched in detail but a quick scan suggests that Gen Wesley Clark's credibility is a concern. You've listed reasons to believe him but made no mention of the serious questions that hang over him. Those questions could be a smear campaign with no truth to them, very hard to tell from here but if his role in NATO is worth mentioning so to is the other side.

His comments on the interview may well be correct, Bush, Rumsfeld & co clearly made some bad decisions following 911 (let alone the alleged war crimes issues). Played differently the world could be a very different place now.

R0bert

Don't you like hearing the truth Robert? Does Major General Stubblebine also at http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/ have no credibility along with the almost other 3000 professionals,and ex leaders of Govt all asking for a new enquiry into 911.

Also questioning the 911 investigation;
Col Robert Bowman PHD in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering;Ex-Director of Advanced Space programs.
Hosni Mubarak Ex-Pres of Egypt.
Hugo Chavez-Current Pres Venezuela
Dr Mahathia Mohamad-Ex PM Malaysia
Vladmir Putin-Current PM Russia.
Pres Zardair Pakistan 2008
General Pervez Musharraf,Pre Pakistan 2000-2008.
Gen Hamid Gul,Ex head of Pakistan intelligence.
Mat Herben MOP Netherlands.
Per Mohn MOP Norway.
Doug Nixson MOP Australia 1975-84.
Jeanette Fitzsimon MOP NZ 1996 till recently.
Yukihisa Fijita Member of the House of Councillors Japan.Current.
Brigitta Jonsdottir Current MOP Iceland.
Ferdinando Imposimato, Pres Supreme Court of Italy.
Francesco Cossiga Pres of Italy 1885-92.
Andreas von Paulow PHD,Ex state Sec Fed Ministry of Defence West Germany.
George Galloway MOP Great Britian 1987 till recently.
Ron Paul was there,but since his prospects for President of the USA are good,he has taken his misgiving from this site.

Care to debate the truth Robert?

The last two steps in Naomi Wolf's,"10 Easy Steps to Fascism" are,
9/ The public is the light of fear begin to self censor.
10/Suspension of the rule of law by our Govts.This is an easy option in our present climate of terrorism fear.The law infrastructure for this to happen is already in place.

*Yes,not one comment from dim witted posters on OLO.They don't want to know the truth,let alone confront it.*

There there, Arjay, so now you got your insults off your chest,
you should be feeling better.

Perhaps some OLO are simply a bit tiered of answering your new
conspiracy a day worldview and are better informed then your
utube understanding of it.

Let me clear this one up for you. When Bush was elected, some
neocons joined his Govt. Their view was that the West was hooked
on oil, yet depended on supplies for much of it, from a bunch of
savages. The only way to change that was to introduce democracy in
the ME, rather then have it ruled by dictators. Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld
etc, come to mind. The neocon view was that Bush senior made a big
mistake, in that he never took out Saddam when he had a chance,
at the end of the Gulf war.

911 shook up America, as despite this huge army, a bunch of Arabs
could create havoc in the heart of America. So Bush started to
listen to Wolfowitz and others and all sorts of ideas and plans were
thrown around. I'm sure that Clark heard some of these. But its
a long way from ideas being thrown around to them being implimented.

So you can now calm down, Arjay, for a friendly and peaceful Prez like
Obama is now in power, no more neocons

Sorry, Arjay.

....but I seem to be having a morning like this:

http://thedoghousediaries.com/2750

Another conspiracy debunked. Nasa has seen the other side of the moon and there is no one there.

"Nasa has seen the other side of the moon and there is no one there"

Or so they tell us.

Poirot thanks for the detailed work instruction. I try and swap out making a sandwich for some other diversion but otherwise it's spot on.

Sort of on topic. I've not quite worked out if Clark is having a serious hatchet job done on him or has lost the plot. Either way he's not exactly a disinterested party. Appears to have done some really good work during the Clinton administration but sacked (or equivalent) during the Bush administration. He tried for the Democratic nomination against Bush in 2003/2004.

R0bert

I have to hand it to you, Arjay, you know how to pick winners.

Leaving aside for a moment all the obvious pot-stirrers on your list of 9/11 nutters (including Hosni Mubarak, a man of great credibility on all matters of international moment), your primary selection of Major General Albert "Bert" N. Stubblebine III takes the biscuit.

His nut-quotient is, put plainly, off the scale.

This is the man who firmly believes that it is possible to breed a super soldier, who could make himself invisible, and... walk through walls. So convinced of this was he, that he tries it himself.

Frequently.

"Visitors to Stubblebine's offices at Arlington, Virginia, are told of him repeatedly walking at walls - only to bounce painfully off them."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1222369

He now sells organic coffee through a website that he uses to disseminate some of his other - even nuttier - ideas.

"ChemTrails continue crossing the skies in many parts of the world dispersing toxic levels of metals such as (aluminum, antimony, arsenic, barium, cadmium, chromium, copper, iron, lead, manganese, nickel and zinc). In addition, reports exist of even more dangerous items like meson ‘brain chips’, genetically engineered mycoplasma, bacteria, viruses and self-replicating forms which can cause serious illnesses such as Morgellens [sic] Disease."

http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?p=11666

(For the uninitiated, Morgellons Disease is not actually a recognized illness - no surprises there, then - but a set of symptoms given a name by an advocacy group. A bit like the 9/11 conspiracy folk, I guess. According to Michael Cappello, a pediatrics professor and infectious disease specialist at Yale University School of Medicine, "...the symptoms are most consistent with a psychiatric condition.")

Altogether, a perfect example of the type of individual - leaders of anti-US countries excepted - who one could absolutely guarantee will perpetuate the 9/11 conspiracy myth.

Congratulations, Arjay. That's the best yet.

Pericles ,your attempt at derision is poor to say the least.First Robert tries to defame Gen Wesley Clark and now you are trying to do a job on Major General Stubblebine.

They all hate Vladmir Putin because he has stopped their invasion of Syria.NATO/Israel want the Russian Base out of the Middle East.China and Russia have both warned NATO and Israel not to attack Iran.The Western oil/banking barons are all shook up.They are caught between our growing awareness and the aligning of a new world power,Russia,China,Pakistan,Iran some South American Countries and very likely India and Japan.

The BMIC (Banking Military Industrial Complex) of the West is in deep poo.Do they continue to crash our economies and risk demise at home or go to a conventional war with the East which they don't have the stomach,manufacturing or high moral ground to win? It will have to be a nuke war.Israel has about 400 nukes,Russia and USA about 10,000 each,China about 3000,Pakistan about 100 Britian a few hundred.India likewise.

We may see a situation whereby the whole planet turns on Israel since they are the ones pounding the war drums against Iran who we all know has not one nuke.An attack on Iran will see a total collapse of the World Economy and some in the BMIC want this.

The elites in the West are divided.The Royals hate Blair probably because of the 911 stuff up with Bush. Remember WTC 7?

Christopher Monckton on behalf of the Royals is trying to put a good face on it by attacking the CO2 lies.Their real fear is losing all their priviledges.The Arch Bishop of Canterbury just recently echoed these fears.He said Britian was headed for anarchy.Which is code for the masses finally realising how they are being shafted.There might not be an aristocracy in the near future and the elites might actually have to work for a living like the rest of us.

I cannot see a proud nation like China playing second fiddle to a bunch of counterfeiters and criminals.If they don't attack Iran,then we will know that China/Russia have got their measure.

Arjay your ability to read what's actually written is not all that impressive.

"First Robert tries to defame Gen Wesley Clark "

I've pointed out that there are significant questions hanging over Gen Wesley Clarke which you had failed to acknowledge when you started the thread.

I don't know if he has been set up or not, not enough evidence to draw a meaningful conclusion at the moment but it is clear that he's not an impartial observer, sacked (or similar) while Bush was President and a political opponent of Bush.

There is nothing defamatory in pointing out either of the above. He may well be telling the truth, I do believe that disclosure helps your case more than it hinders. If you want to debate the truth perhaps you should be a little more honest in your presentation.

R0bert

Sheesh Arjay, your posts are nearly as entertaining as the Larouche
website, which I sometimes check out for a bit of light entertainment.

According to this week's Larouche gospel, thermonuclear war is
immininent!

You would feel right at home with that crowd.

Robert what are Wesley Clark's foibles? You talk as if my cause is detached from yours and the rest of the planet.

We've got some serious lunatics in the West ready to go for an all out war.Obama is trying to stall the Israeli attack on Iran and at the same time get the Russian base out of Syria.NATO USA and Israel are destablising the Middle East to steal more energy/resources.

They may have set in track forces they cannot control.Russia/China/India/Japan may well decide it is time to end Western Imperialism instigated by their counterfeiting scams.

link explains the quote
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/ARTICLE5/index.php

""Is terrorism inside the United States..really from outside,
or is it a stage managed production,..designed to cause Americans to believe they have no choice..but to surrender the Republic

and accept the totalitarian rule
of a new emperor,..or a new Fuhrer?

Indeed,given that acts of terror
undermine the very public support needed by..
the so-called "terrorists" to bring about change,

it may be argued that there are in fact..no genuine acts of terror; that they are all manufactured events..to be blamed on the groups wishing to challenge the status quo.

Once lost,..the Romans never got their Republic back.

Once lost,..the Germans never got their Republic back.

In both cases,..the nation had to totally collapse
before freedom was restored to the people....And capitalists chewed over the war booty

Remember that
when Crassus..tells you that Spartacus approaches.

Remember that
when thugs in the streets act..in a manner
clearly designed*..to provoke the public fear.

Remember that
when the Reichstag burns down.

Remember that when the President lies
*to you about weapons of mass destruction...
http://whatreallyhappened.com/911_reichstag.html

This is a repeat..
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl.php

of how Franklin Roosevelt,
unable to sell a war..against Germany to the American people,
instead goaded Japan..into the attack at Pearl Harbor,..pretended it was a surprise,..and bulldozed the American people into WW2.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/us-and-allies-considering-plans-for-military-aid-to-syrian-rebels/story-e6frf7lf-1226267126586

but id rather be exposing the banking cartel's
doing quantitive easing..[printing extra cash]..in uk
3/4'rs..of a trillion pounds..

that some mug [govt]..must lend..at intrest
to pay off the debt bet..of some other clever colluding bankers

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/why-wall-street-should-stop-whining-20120208

finland got out of the lie
this romainian lot..didnt
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/02/romania-government-toppled-over-austerity.html

heard greece..bailouts..gets a 75% haircut
with intest at 100%..per annum..[meaning year 1..see's.remaining 25%
equate..50% origonal debt..year two ses debt at same previously defaulted debt[year 3 double current debt]..a world gone insane

dont buy drinks for drunks
oh heck why bother

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

Putin has had his time, the Russians have moved on. The crystal ball is glowing red hot, How is China going to join the forces of the East, they only have one boat. And South America ;Realy; Sounds like something that belongs in a book.

continued

researching/the greece bond-rate[over 100%]
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=114x90512

the value..of a note with..12 months to maturity
that has a yield of 108%..is currently selling..for somewhere around 42 cents..on the dollar.

If the yield..on the 1 year
started at around 10% and it's now over 100%
mean's this bond..is trading at less
then 10 cents on the dollar..or thereabouts?

Who would pay 42 cents on the dollar..for Greek debt
that's probably headed for default..in days or even hours?

[reply]..no, it doesn't.

If similar US paper..was sold at a 10% yield..then it would price just above $900 per bond...If it went to a 50% yield..the bonds would be bid down to about $667.

Here's a bond calculator..that will bear this out;

http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/bond_yield_calculator.htm

Make sure the "Par Value"..field reads "1000".
In the "Coupon" field type "0" (zero)
and in the "Years to Maturity" field type "1" (one)

In the.."Current Price" field,
type.."480"..and you'll find the yield..will work/out
to/be..around 108%

9.Very interesting.
Thanks,..I ran it..through on the calculator.

Ok so basically
It's double..or nothing.

I can't believe anyone..would take that bet
with Greece..on the verge of default.

I'd want odds of at least 5 or 10 to 1.

At 2 to 1 odds
I might as well go to Vega.. and bet on black.

At least my odds are 50/50.

Maybe investors..are betting that..in the event of a default
the bond holder..will only take a 50% haircut..and they'll be even.

Either the German central bank..will step in,the US Federal Reserve will do something,..England will back-stop them.....""[with 3/4 trillion pounds]

the 50% haircut..is a possible alternative...That would mean instead of these being redeemed at par,..they are redeemed at half that.

In that case,had you bought some of these notes..at 42% or 48% of par or whatever,..you would still come/out..ahead,..albeit by only a few percentage points,..not by 108.

To briefly expand/on..that idea,..those
that are buying..these up..at that big yield will do fine...[lol]

Those..that paid much more..for them
will lose....[your pension trustees]

source/for the article..and the graf:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GGGB1YR:IND
Yield on Greek..one year tops 130%

now..138%
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GGGB1YR:IND

C'mon, Arjay. Occasionally - just occasionally - 'fess up and accept that your sources are somewhat less than impeccable. If ever there was a need for such an admission, this surely would be it.

>>Pericles ,your attempt at derision is poor to say the least.First Robert tries to defame Gen Wesley Clark and now you are trying to do a job on Major General Stubblebine.<<

I merely pointed out that calling upon the good General to boost your credibility may not have been the smartest move, given his history and his current utterings. You probably don't appreciate just how little he adds stature to your bizarre claims of a 9/11 CIA/elite bankster/government conspiracy.

It's like you're standing in a courtroom, the judge asks you to call your next witness, and you proudly announce "Your Honour, I'd like at this juncture to call... Homer Simpson".

"But Counsellor, Homer Simpson is a cartoon character. A very well-known cartoon character, the Court acknowledges, but a cartoon character nonetheless"

"My witness will show beyond reasonable doubt, that the US Government is conspiring with the BMIC against its own citizenry, in order to fill the pockets of the Rockefellers and Rothschilds..."

"The BMIC, counsellor? What is that?"

"The Banking Military Industrial Complex, Your Honour. I shall later be calling another witness who will explain their role to the Court."

"And that witness will be... Scooby-Doo, right?"

"That's right, Your Honour..."

Keep 'em coming, Arjay. This is priceless stuff.

Pericles,The BMIC could also be Banking Military Industrial Counterfeiters.They create all the Big MIC-KEY Mouse money with the click of a Mouse or a touch of a computer KEY.They own you Pericles just like everyone else in the West and you are doing their bidding.

OUG they just don't want to believe it.

579, Putin has been a good counter balance to Western Imperialism.We need him but not too hawkish.

*They own you Pericles just like everyone else in the West*

Sheesh Arjay, now you have me confused. As it happens I own some
bank shares and they send me dividend cheques every 6 months.

So does that make me one of the evil bankster owners or does that
make me a poor slave who is now apparently owned?

Hmmmm. I might have been wrong about Scooby-doo, Arjay.

>>Pericles,The BMIC could also be Banking Military Industrial Counterfeiters.They create all the Big MIC-KEY Mouse money with the click of a Mouse or a touch of a computer KEY<<

He would have made much more sense.

So (and I know I've asked you this before) where are these people? What do they do with the money, once they have created it? Because there's no point just printing it and sitting on it - what use would that be? Where did it come from, and where did it go?

It's called "follow the money", Arjay, and if you bothered to do just that - and only that - you would quickly realize that you haven't the first clue about anything financial at all.

>>They own you Pericles just like everyone else in the West and you are doing their bidding.<<

Not really. I think they may have forgotten me. No-one has said "do my bidding, for I own you". Which is a shame, because I have my answer to them all prepared and ready.

But since they have obviously called on you, you've got me all curious - what exactly did they ask you to do?

And if by any chance it involves alien spaceships and anal probes, I'm afraid I'm going to need all the details.

yabby quote..""Sheesh Arjay,..now you have me confused.
As it happens I own some..*bank shares
and they send me dividend cheques
every 6 months.""

lol...so your 'the shareholder'
the banks are trying to please..

forgive him lord
he knows not..of what he says
we enslaved to ursury/bankers...pay your bonus*

oh harse task master*
you..who we slave for..to give you...intrest* ursury income
give you credit...to money you did not earn..but eaerned of the sweat equity of others

all the ill's of huge ursury
lay at the feet of the shareholders[masters]
the trust,..that the corperations subvert/pervert..you get bonus

we get your debt
as long as all money is borrowed into egsistance[with intrest]
wherefrom..comes the extra money to pay intrest with
[ie from others defaulting their debts]

micro credit..at 35%
credit cards at 23%

stop indiscriminate financing
multicorperte loans....borrowed overseas funds...lol

why do we pay your debt
your inflation...has devalued our credit
restore the true face vallues..back into our coin age..
and if you hold my money PAY ME INTREST*..fee free[1% transaction tax]

wage tax was only to repay the ursury
on your bankers debt...it put on govt..lending it its own money...lol

[quote]
''""So does that make me one of the evil bankster owners
or does that..make me a poor slave..who is now apparently owned?""

both
your just too mind numb with income
to see the forrest for the trees

what..YOUR SHARES DO
you can be held to account for

be it morally..or finally
your vote could..or couldnt change
the acts of the instrument..that gave you the bribe

odious debt
isnt lawfull

illegal gains
cant be owned

what means no ursury?



Hmmmm.

I might have been wrong about Scooby-doo, Arjay.

>>Pericles,

""The BMIC could also be Banking Military Industrial Counterfeiters....They create all the Big MIC-KEY Mouse money
with the click of a Mouse or a touch of a computer KEY

He would have
made much more sense.

So(and..I know I've asked you this before)
where are these people?""..

see the previous post!

yabby..is one
you..clearly are/one

heck any_one..that owns shares in a pension
they are the ones..that ok/ed the signing of the check..[bank-note]..lol

look..his mark
is on ya paper money
heck two signatures...assuming lawfull licence..as value

much like a cheque..countersigned

your SERVANT..is money printing

silence
is going to allow greater fraud

YES
you 2..!

""What do they do..with the money,""

if gifted..to a bank
it is fractionally reserved..into 100 times its face value

[it used to be ten to one]

but then..we got 'securities
via currency swaps...and extra printings
that defated the value...as you inflated the paper cheque/note bill issue

money..is a debt..[bank-*BILL}..!
the last to hold..the promise of sacred tender[for debts]
gets left with..the paper[sorry plastic]..it we..cant eat

yet
each note..is in itself a share
if we hold more value..in your checks[cash][fiat promise]
your banker fed/mugs just print more...lol..promises

we cant do..to you
what you did..to govt globally
with war/bonds

you..SHAREholders]..demanded..
be paid in gold silver coin..NOW![1930]

then you stole..even that[in 66]
give us your dirty/old sterling/silver 12 pence
and we give you 10 cents..or nice shinny nickle coin..with the same value as 12 pennie's

for those like you'in the know'
you got your wealth..in them 45 million round/silver 50 cent pieces[with the same SILVER/metal content...as the pre decimal sterling silver coin]

again
restore traditioonal gold/silver/values
BACK into the face/values..of the coin
your fiat/paper[plastic]..dollar deflation..stole from our coin

your SERVANTS..even made the penny..have less copper
then stole even..the copper...

[used..the copper..to make cupra/nickle
dollar coins][golden counterfeit]

gold coins..in look..[not content/nor value]

that must_be..bought back..to its..*new face_value
according to..its current weight's..in faux gold

[the bankers/masters....*you
stole!..from us/all]

""since they*..have created it?""

they*[4 colluding bankers
read creature from jeckle island]

THEY..stole
the federal reserve/
national bankers..stole the mint/money creation franchise
from the state[colony]..

hrh head..is still
on face..royal/decree..*guarentee..[metal quality]

banks..own the fed
your shares..own the banks

its pretty clear dear
what you let them do...in the end..falls back/on you
for whome..what was dun ,was done

your banker controled fed
then ignored the cents..pennies

and printed out..credit/checks..for pounds/dollars/marks
[OR RATHER..THEIR GOLD SILVER COPPER COINS*..by weight..

all coins are asured weight..[queens-head]
in valable metals..gold silver coin..is constituted
the..only lawfull tender

they*[you]

globally MUST..restore the true/values
back into the face/value..of todays coin/age value

todays gutted of value...coins re-presented..traditional values
as..*when their weight..promised a market value/pureity
of the coins pure metal value/weight..

gold/silver coin-rage debaisment
is treason..though out time

your condoning that crime
of odious debt..whole sale looting
and plunder..ingrained in political debt/deciet/treason

you own it
you can't explain it
refuse to seek to prevent it

and explain..where the money goes
and who..gets a share of the crimianl acts/redemtions..[ac-creditisations]..of real asset..which follow

bailout..the base
top down..*just goes to you..and yabby..
representing..the elite slave master set..et al..1%

"" Because..there's no point/just printing it
and sitting on it..what use would that be?""

if your..a banker bank it
then you can lend it out again..100 times[fraction_reserve/lending]
then still claim..your having to borrow it..to get you{shareholding}..LOT..a bonus*

""Where..did it come/from,""

from us..into the finatial market
who got bonus gambling/scamming/stealing it all[bit by bit]

""and where/did it go?""

give you a guess
its on many islands..in dubi

swiss vaults in switerland....held in securities..assets
BUT MAINLY..*IN FAMILY TRUSTS...

every trust must be sealed..and punitivly taxed..then be forced to..'die'..and pay death duties

the dead trusts...arnt that worthy..of faceless trust

family trusts..are where the wealth hides
often paying wages..in true silver/gold coins
at deflated/face value..not true metal values..

another great/scam

""you would quickly realize
that you haven't the first clue..about..anything financial at all.""

you will realise..knowing
and silence..implies concent

consorting in crimal act..before the fact..criminal act?

Thank you for that quadripedalian effort, OUG. In a nutshell, what are you actually saying ?

Stop teasing, Pericles, that's cruel !

Joe :)

In a nut shell loudmouth,only Govts that respesent all of the people should have the power to issue new currency.As Bill Still says,it not what backs your currency,but who controls the quantity.

joe let me explain

as arjay has said..""it not what backs your currency,
but who controls the quantity...""

add to that who deigns quality*
and its the base of the quality...of the metal of a coin
her right royal majesty endorces..with her head on debased coin

thats treason
all the coin..had a head on it
that ensures its quality*

issueing more quantity
on the same limited..coin face value[treasure]
has seen the wealth of quality...and intrinsic worth..[of the coin]..debased..to where now it costs ten cents of nickle to make a ten cent coin

and print any face value note for only 7 cents
and create infinite debt...[govt credit]..for a stroke of a computer

simply..bailing out capitalists
and putting the debt on the people
is only the last of the evils they do unseen

and those getting kickbacks
by not saying ...not in thy name'
are guilty of what their investment does

watch this space
for what they debase next
[they is you shareholders..not doing due diligence]

i see a way out
based on coin..[increase [inflate]...'ITS"..face value
back in line with what it would have been...[if babnkers hadnt wanted our silver/gold reserves

then the copper reserves
and soon...all OUR..cupra/nickle reserves

as they subsume the lot into their computer
[i bought land..yet govt kept the title]

but it was sold by act of treason
[govt bundled the securities...and on sold it
now will default on it...and bankers take all...as we each default

you cause you went bust
in the big market collapse
that has happend allready to many small businewes owners

sent bust too
first your business
next your savings..lastly what you bought with your dividends

lol re-invested[fractionally]
but with full accounting of loss

when you should have kept cash/food...life/love

how much money do we really need
how much should you be allowed to hide..in ya family trust

how many houses..can you live in
cause soon the poor wont pay their rent
or do your dirty work for them

*yabby..is one
you..clearly are/one
heck any_one..that owns shares in a pension*

I did notice the above in OUGs rant, Loudmouth.

Whew, clearly anyone who has super and thus makes
profits from banking, would seemingly be part of
the evil bankster conspiracy. That includes virtually
the whole Australian working population. For all
their super funds invest in bank shares.

So we are clearly slaves to ourselves!

you swallowed the bait yabbie
see mate...our super holds the share[maybe]
but we dont get the share discount's..nor the VOTE!

you claim to hold ACTUAL shares
you can vote..you can expose..the lies i reveakled
BUT DIDNT...*

see you vote with your shares
i cant vote with mine...my pension provider might claim to have had

see how in the end...those who dont hold share
havnt shared the spoil...[nor de-spoiled]

but you hold the actual share
you hold the vote

all the rest of the votes are held by others corperatiions and other banks...your one of the few..without limited lie-ability

corperations telling other corperations
what to do....but they got ltd liability

your liable for all your debt bets..
but not the corperation that steals for your bonus
and in the end will steal it all...for your selective ignorances

every boom has its bust
but banko [the house].. allways wins
cause their wealth..is safe in trust..

or so was the thinking
when the scam went broke

the only real thing..that can save this lie ending bad
is returning the true value back into the face value of the coin

deflated to 99 percent..of its historic worth
and the queen didnt notice..too busy being pope..a dope?

the figure head..on debaised coin
sustaining the lie of a crown..by royal decree
or that fiat paper legal tender be

*i cant vote with mine...my pension provider might claim to have had*

ROFL OUG, so you too make money from banks, through your pension
fund. You evil bankster robber you :)

If you don't like how your pension fund is voting, change pension
funds. Like hundreds of thousands of Australians, I run my own,
all quite commmon and legal. You are free to do likewise.

Yabby,banks produce nothing of tangible worth.Money is not wealth.Money represents people's productivity.

If you cannot see the mess the world is in at the moment because of Banking Cartels and the distortions they create in the market,then OUG and I cannot help you.You will have to find out the hard way when they further crash our economies for their gain.

Arjay, banks are an absolutaly critical part of our economy. Without
them, everything stops.

Meantime, if your business shut tomorrow, not too many would notice.
If your bank shut tomorrow, that would not be the case.

Not true Yabby.Banks are not crucial to our economy.In the past people used a bartering system.In Aust in the Early 1800's we used Rum as a medium of exchange.In our modern computer world we could set up a complex bartering system or use a system like Bitcoin that bypasses the banks and direct peer to peer transactions can be done.

You are behind the times.We do not need banks sucking the lifeblood out of our productivity.

we'd all need secretaries, wouldn't that be good. how would you pay your secretary, Arjay.

Arjay,

You might have a point there about bartering systems. The main problem is how to calculate equivalence in the value of different, exchangeable, commodities, and the way that societies have been doing this for a few thousand years is to agree on some common exchangeable commodity.

Pretty quickly they found that one could not use a bulky commodity (cabbages), or one which perished (lumps of meat), or one which could be easily consumed (food) or burnt (wood) or would corrode (iron goods). In effect, they needed some sort of good which was otherwise pretty useless, except perhaps for ornament.

But they needed something which was rare, but not rare enough to be unattainable, and something which could be turned into a portable, valuable, mutually-agree but otherwise-useless commodity, so silver got the running. It was gradually replaced by gold as a form of common exchangeable value, or currency. And you know the rest.

It's actually fairly impractical to browse around a market-place pushing a wheelbarrow full of cabbages, particularly if there is another bloke with a wheelbarrow full of even better cabbages.

Cheers,

Joe

But Arjay, if the banks are sucking the lifeblood out of your
productivity, what on earth are you doing using them? Cancel
your bank account, cut up your credit card, store gold or silver
under the bed, just like UOG!

The banking system that I use, is very efficient and very low
cost to me. Its getting better all the time too. I used to have
to sit down each week and write out a whole lot of cheques, put
stamps on envelopes, mail them out etc. No more. With a few
clicks of my mouse, I can pay anyone, anywhere, for nearly zilch.
All with free software from my bank. Oops sorry, I do pay 6$ a
month in bank fees.

I've had a Visa card for as long as I can remember and have never
paid a cent in interest on it. I have an eftpos card which means
I don't even need to go the the bank auto teller, but withdraw
cash from Coles, when I go shopping. Again no charges to me.

I sometimes buy shares online through the bank. Brokers would charge
me 100-200$. The bank charges 25$. Again a bargain.

I can buy a song from America for a dollar. I can buy goods from
Hong Kong online, pay safely for both me and the supplier, all
via our banking system.

Where am I losing in productivity?

Yabby,at the moment I have few options.I use the Bendigo for my business but our banks in reality are sub-servants to the really big power brokers in the international scam.

You see Yabby the big bankster scammers have loaded up all our private banks with their derivative debt cons.All of our banks here have derivative debt which will bring them asunder when the criminals pull the really big pin.The NAB borrowed 3 billion we know of from the US Fed.

Just recently the Syd Morning Herald was denied info under the Freedom of Information Act on the Aust banking industry.Our Gillard Govt denied this info under the auspices of "National Security". Our banks are not that secure and this is echoed by the RBA who have refused to reduce rates even though Canada who have a similar economy to us ,have rate 4% lower.

So what's happening Yabby? Our banks are no smarter than the European or USA banks.These small retail banks in which we the plebs have our savings,have been sucked in also.They make piddling profits compared to the really big players.

Fanny May and Freddie Mac,were levered to 331:1 at one stage and our super funds bought into this scam.

Arjay, sounds to me that you believe that our banks are about
to collapse. If you really believe that, what on earth are you doing,
with your savings in the Bendigo? You are free to buy gold, silver,
farmland or anything else that you feel is a good longterm store of
value.

Yes, our banks deal in derivatives, as they should. Anyone who exports
would use their services, for currency hedging. Farmers hedge their
grain prices through derivatives. It seems to me
that you are throwing investment banks and retail deposit banks all
into the one pile, because of the word "bank". They are quite
different.

*The NAB borrowed 3 billion we know of from the US Fed.*

Err, so what? 3 billion is chicken feed, given what we borrow
overseas. It would have been at a time of a liquidity crisis.
The job of Reserve banks is to keep the economy ticking over, with
enough liquidity.

*Our banks are not that secure and this is echoed by the RBA who have refused to reduce rates even though Canada who have a similar economy to us ,have rate 4% lower.*

The worst thing that our RBA could do is lower rates. It would only
increase house prices and our house prices are already 30% overvalued.
We'd frankly be better off with cheaper houses, so if Sydney house
prices drop 20%, it can only do long term good for our economy.

*They make piddling profits compared to the really big players.*

Our banks are making average to a bit above average returns on
capital. Any less and they would have no investors to bankroll them.
Woolies, BHP etc, achieve a better return on capital.

*Fanny May and Freddie Mac,were levered to 331:1 at one stage*

Indeed, the Fanny and Freddie story is a scandal, but they are not
really banks. More like semi Govt US institutions, where American
politicians were sucked in, with big payouts to people like Newt
Gingrich, who the American people are now considering for Prez.
Don't blame the banking system for that, blame dumb American voters.

i agree with yabbie..that all banks arnt 'banks'
and that largly..the problem isnt bankers..but those clever guys..who leverage..their..'product'..off others products...

the mob who can 'buy'..a sewer [sew-rage]..system..off your local council...then rent it back to them..[with instant default systems..reverting lower intrest..into default intrest...or oftem a demand..for the whole lot payed back instantly

thats much like them 'intrest free'..scams
that kick in the instant you miss one payment

but its worse than that even..]
those bundled contracts/mortgauges..etc
bundled with other 'products'..other promises..
and default insurances commisions/bonus kickbacks..etc

they are the real criminals
but worse is the ratings agencies
that rate..suss [product]...AAA+..

that then must be bought
by your pension provider...by other's
like banking regs...made bying govt bonds..part of their liquidity provisions [compulsory]...cause their are underwrittten..by the peons

paying compulsory tax..
conpulsory super..compulsorry insurances
compulsory fines levies fees base charges tolls taxes

Interesting you should mention Bitcoins, Arjay.

>>...use a system like Bitcoin that bypasses the banks...<<

I have been following Bitcoin's fortunes with great interest, ever since you first introduced me to the concept.

The most significant analogy I can find for it, is the Gold Rush. Given that Bitcoins are "mined", that should not be too surprising, but this is not the only similarity.

For those yet to encounter the phenomenon, here is a relatively recent account of its trajectory.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/11/mf_bitcoin/all/1

The parts that supported my "gold" comparison were:

"Bitcoin had begun in the public-interested spirit of open source peer-to-peer software and libertarian political philosophy, with references to the Austrian school of economics."

Aha, those crazy Austrians and their Gold Standard. What seems to have happened is that some smart mathematician had found a way to produce "gold" electronically.

"Bitcoin’s economy consists of a network of its users’ computers. At preset intervals, an algorithm releases new bitcoins into the network: 50 every 10 minutes... bitcoiners’ computers validate transactions by cracking cryptographic puzzles, the first to solve each puzzle receives 50 new bitcoins."

So, like gold, there are a few prospectors out there, "finding" gold, in the form of Bitcoins. So, why doesn't everyone do it...?

"Where the first miners had used their existing machines, the new wave, looking to mine bitcoins 24 hours a day, bought racks of cheap computers with high-speed GPUs cooled by noisy fans. The boom gave rise to mining-rig porn, as miners posted photos of their setups. As in any gold rush, people recounted tales of uncertain veracity"

Altogether, a very workable concept. So long as the population of merchants willing to accept Bitcoins continues to increase, and the "production" process is not allowed to cause over-supply. Meanwhile - like any untraceable currency (e.g. gold), Bitcoins have some very specific applications.

"Gawker published a story on June 1 about the currency’s popularity among online drug dealers"

Makes sense.

Since Gen Clark seems to have been left behind while you focus our attention on the banks I thought you might find this of interest, Arjay…

There are still 26 days to download – and listen closely to – the 13 MB podcast of BBC Radio 4's (excellent) The Long View: Sovereign Debt.

A nice comparison with Greek's current debt crisis and the way England dealt with one of its.

You will probably enjoy the way the bankers got shafted… though as in most sovereign or national financial situations that is an oversimplification of the whole story.

The more things change the more they stay the same.

Good post about Bitcoin Pericles.I don't like their concept of mining new currency for no real productivity.The peer to peer transfer of money is a positive.This mining Bitcoin would ultimately be very similar to what Commercial and Central banks do at the moment ie create money from nothing that represents the wealth of all society.In this case the wealth of their mining would be more diversely spread than our present banking system.

The perversion at the moment is that our increases in productivity get expressed as debt by private banking corps who then loan it back to us to repay capital + interest.It kills incentive since our Govts act as debt collecting agents to private banks who produce nothing of tangible worth.Currently we see in the USA the FED create $ trillions from nothing and loan it to the people as debt.It is a monumental scam!!

With the instigation of the Private US Federal Reserve in 1913,the Govt then brought in the income tax act in 1914 to service debt to private banks.None of us should be paying income tax as the natural increases in population and productivity provide more than enough taxes for our Govts to function.

Ron Paul generally has the formula right.We need more individual freedoms/responsibility and far smaller far less interventionist Govt.

WmTrevor.While the small banks may get shafted,their CEO's and directors usually clean out the coffers and run free.The really big players never lose.They have too many pawns between us and them to play out their chess game.

Gen Wesley Clark is one of the few good men who has the courage to speak the truth.We all know that the wars are about energy and global dominance,however there is a very sinister agenda by some which they want the world's population reduced by 90% in the name of saving the planet.They have the means to do it via disease,wars,food control,oppression,chemical,psychological warfare,economic collapse and control of our Govts.Many within the elite have been convinced by our scientists that the world will end unless man's use of resoures/energy is drastically curtailed.

This is why the Chinese model of communism is being adopted by the Green movement and Obama.This is what people like Ron Paul are trying to defeat.It is totalitarianism in it's most obscene form.

*While the small banks may get shafted,their CEO's and directors usually clean out the coffers and run free.*

Its these wild claims Arjay, that I have a bone to pick about.

Yes, bank CEOs make great money. A wrong move could lose billions,
so we need the very smartest people in the job. A gold watch won't
do it these days, I am afraid.

Now take some time to study the financials of our big 4, any of them.
Add up what is paid to the CEO and directors. Take a look how many
billions are paid out to shareholders. Payments to the former are frankly
chickenfeed.

Who are all these shareholders making all this money? Anyone
who has a superfund of course. They own most of our banks. In other
words, Australian workers are by far the largest beneficiaries of
Australian bank profits, after the Govt has taken its share.

yabby/quote..""Add up what is paid to the CEO and directors.""

ie less than 50 bonus recievers?

"""Take a look how many
billions are paid out to,..{MILLIONS}..of shareholders.

Payments to the former are frankly
chickenfeed."""

yep it funny how the few[ceo's]
share so much of so little

and the shareholders recierve..so little from so much

""Who are all these shareholders making all this money?
Anyone..who has a superfund of course..."""

lol...as stated previously
fundholders...dont get a share

sure..'their compulsory contributions..
plus share..'income'...seemingly goes into THEIR FUND
but the fuind churns it[gam,bels iot away again[plus votes on the shares]..plus gets all the share benifits

in the end...its all re-invested
[except for the bonus collected
and wages/fees charges/govt taxes etc

THESE few..funds holding shares
""They own most of our banks.""

they take the share dividend
not us...to say us..is only vaguely correct
for by the time we could get it..its been re-invested

and we now hold buggy whip shares..gunns shares..
and empty mine [shares]..and cleanup duties...

our past proffits are gone
or what they bought..was deflated into nuthing..[by the time 'the majority'..collects their 'share'..of all them gutted shares[bonus all round thought for the few]

""In other words,
Australian workers are by far the largest beneficiaries of
Australian bank profits,""

in other words
in our name...but like any pyramid sceme
in the end..the last in..get the least out

or ibnflateion
has devalued your un-inflated dollars..to where your final super..buys you half a beer

""after the Govt has taken its share.''

yes after govt takes its lesser share for the rich
chosing between..paying 15% super super rate[plus govt extras]
...[or 30% wages taxtrate..if they took simply their wage]

and the poor get the same 15%
even if they never reached the tax rate of 20,000
and their 'top up'..is pennies compared to what top/ups
govt gifts to the rich...[all on the lame excuse..of govt cant pay pensions tomorrow[lol]

heck its paying todays
AND TOMORROWS pensions today..[via the top up]

its just a clever scam..so workers
didnt get their pay top up..way back when

minimum wage
maximum abuse

recall it began with..a lower wage increase
[that was diverted [perverted]..into a regular tax deduction
from ya wage packet...cause tomorrow govt cant pay pensions

so their mates can gamble..with your wages
and reap in the various and many eklite tax perks..govt grants cash...and

*they get bonus
/power*

voting rights..dividends..discounts..
free education/fre health[privates only please]

not you..the mug
paying for it all

and who will never reach retirment age
[like 22 out of 100 ab-origonals
ONLY*..will live longer than min retirment age]

lol..you suck away their megere pay

for a day..
78 in every 100..[abo's]..*will never see
cause impoverished rotted teeth peasents..dont live that long

heck the poor of the whities too
[note the poor die young
usually from rotted teeth..poor food...poor health conditions
bad water/bad air..polutants carcinogenes..sick foods..making sick workers[that die young]..lol

the conditions of slavery
for a day that for more than half..can never come

while the elites..get bonus..
extra subsidy for health/even sports equipment
dentistry/glasses...unlimited web acces..and ever more govt gift[subsidy][topup]..school fees..private hospitals...super topup lol

[yep i must agree with you
its strange..

govt gives so much collectivly..to so few]

the few
so much like you
who somehow do quite nicely
with all that extra govt largess

heck even the rent subsidy
goes directly to the rich landlord[slumlords]

heck the rich need a bailout
the system is broke bloke

yes you got yours
but ya kids will never see a penny
just a life time of austerity..

because those who reap the cream
never mkilked the cow...and those who did milk..died from pox

a pox on both ya house
and their ratings agency..and lobby

Arjay,

Sometimes it's difficult to jeep up with you.

About these people that would like to see the world's pop diminished by 90 percent: Why would people making profit from human desire want this? Those who you say are profiting from global hegemony do so by promoting unsustainable practices. The Green Revolution in India is a perfect example of providing technology and energy to grow food for the multitudes....but to simultaneously encourage environmental degradation and to provide optimum profits to multinationals. These profits are reliant on the needs and desires of a large population.

Those that argue that India cannot sustain these practices are flying in the face of long term profitable practice. They are promoting sustainable agriculture - attempting to hand some autonomy back to the peasant farmers. You would term them Greenies, but how do you reconcile that type of concern with a global conspiracy to defraud the majority of humans?

The world won't "end' if we screw things up monumentally for ourselves as a species. The world won't even notice that we tipped the odds out of our favour...it will just carry on regardless.

That should obviously be "keep up".

(Gawd! - some typos are more ridiculous than others)

I think you may have missed the point, Arjay.

>>Good post about Bitcoin Pericles.I don't like their concept of mining new currency for no real productivity.<<

The point being, that producing Bitcoins through a mining process, is is exactly the same producing gold from a mining process.

Gold prospectors invest in technology that will yield gold from the earth - from pans and sluice boxes to sodium cyanide - in precisely the same way that Bitcoiners invest in computers of ever-increasing power. In neither case, Bitcoins or gold, is there any actual new value created, only the tools with which to effect value exchange. Instead of gold being dug up from the ground, which anybody can do, Bitcoins are dug up from the internet. Which anybody can do.

There is absolutely no difference. In each case, it has been arbitrarily decided that gold/Bitcoins should be an exchange medium. In each case, the perceived value can go up or down, when measured against "money".

I'm not sure about this, either:

>>This mining Bitcoin would ultimately be very similar to what Commercial and Central banks do at the moment ie create money from nothing that represents the wealth of all society<<

Whether or not this will turn out to be the case, exactly the same can be said of gold, which also does absolutely nothing that "represents the wealth of all society"

What would happen to the price of gold, do you think, if massive, easily accessible gold deposits were suddenly discovered in - say - Tasmania? Where prospectors could simply put a shovel in the ground, and pile the stuff into their wheelbarrow, 24/7?

More importantly, what would be the impact on i) Australia's and ii) the world's economies?

If any.

*About these people that would like to see the world's pop diminished by 90 percent: Why would people making profit from human desire want this?*

Poirot, I'd say that Arjay got that conspiracy from the CEC Larouche
websites. CEC is the Australian branch. They believe all sorts of
wierd things, like the claim above. Apparently old Prince Phillip
is right at the forefront of this! He is seemingly evil, because he
supports various conservation projects.

Don't ever try and make sense of the Larouche claims. Its more like
a cult. But I do know of one old timer who was sucked in and treats
it like a religion. He seemingly also gave them a great deal of his money.

BTW, I don't mind you making the odd typo, for it shows that you
are quite human, like the rest of us :)

OUG, your usual rants make little sense, so perhaps you should put
tobacco in that pipe and not the other stuff. Maybe your posts
might become more coherant. Meantime its easier to stick to reading
posters whose posts acually make some sense.