20 Years ago the road we condemn was seeing its first true contracted rebuilding.
It was my factory floor, I and my workmates had lived with weekly deaths and trauma that drove good men from their lifetime jobs.
Police left suffering and out of work for life.
Road workers too.
About that time,a long wish, the Oxley Highway main arterial route from the Coats to the new England, saw plans begin
16 years ago stage one of that upgrade began, the Pacific had several big contracts underway.
Stage two, it may be three, planned while John Howard was PM started a few years ago.
The Oxley kills,the Pacific kills, or do they?
Continuing planed in stages, upgrades to the Oxley have been taking place before the local member left state politics to run for the federal seat.
Right now my old factory floor, looks very good in places, a great deal of it is 4 lane divided road.
That new road great road still kills,or does it.
Drivers demand American style roads, but no links to our tax base as compared to theirs is considered.
We fail.
Fail a basic, we do not drive to road conditions, then blame the road.
It is no secret, no fabrication, our most recent reason to blame the road not the driver.
Was bought about not by a truck.
But as reported but not considered in the rush to convict the road, a Ute, driver maybe asleep? on the wrong side of the road.
And a truck, trying desperately to avoid it.
Is the highway a killer, or are drivers?

Belly I think both. The poorest of roads should not be a killer if everyone drives to suit conditions, the poorest of roads does reduce the margin for error.

A road that's well below expected standard for it's usage will increase the likely hood that people will misjudge conditions or not be able to avoid the idiot that's just ignoring the conditions.

R0bert

Belly,
From my obsevations, it seems six of one and half a dozen of the other.

I do not have stats, but I think there are far less accidents on the Hume here now than there used to be and I would be surprized if that were not the case for the reconstructed sections of the Pacific.

Still there are some accidents, as you said drivers fall asleep and so on.

I seem to recall that prior to 1988 bi-centenary we were told by politicians that there would be two lanes each way from Sydney to Melbourne and that did not occur. In fact, such was their spruking at thee time, there would be nothing left to do at all after 1988. Was not there signs reading 3X3 everywhere.

But the pollys found other things to spend money on so it is a matter of political priority where the money goes. I am not happy to see vast ammounts go overseas when the Pacific badly needs upgrading. No doubt other states see similar needs in their state.

Belly it does not answer your question but the following might be of interest
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/dynamic/monthly-accident-data.pdf

also
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/fatality_rate_1908_to_2009.pdf

and
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety/downloads/crashstats2010.pdf

I wonder if they've plotted crashes geographically over time.

It would be interesting to see if the relevant rates dropped following road upgrades in particular area's. Also interesting to see the impact on rates for sections of road adjacent to upgrades, are people more or less likely to have a crash on a poorer section of road if they've just come off an upgraded road?

R0bert

RObert 22 years of working on it, 10 more looking after road construction workers, I know a bit about it.
We place great expectations us drivers on all roads.
This one more than most,it serves coastal livers and holiday makers.
We leave home at 4 am even earlier, and try to beat the time it took us last time, trucks we share that road with too are playing that game.
South of Woodburn a brand new 4 lane divided road, for a time, killed more than it had as the dreadful road it was, killer highway.
Much brand new road has been constructed, Even before John Howard won office the upgrade has been on.
Early promises of fast completion , unrealistic at least, not enough machinery workers or cash exists to finish it much faster.
Yet drivers want it now, no consideration of costs, we hear about American roads.
Not about those as bad as ours but freeways, 22 million Australians, how many Americans? who pays.
Oxley Highway, in the news just a week ago, two young male hitch hikers killed.
Pleas to fix the road, faster now even.
My area yours too probably is shot, second hand patches on second hand roads falling apart.
Sadly, pressed by conservationists and self interested groups, fix mine now, or quarries owners wanting their gravel used.
Not the free stuff in cuttings and roadside hills, that after removal leave both new rest areas and better roads, using ENOUGH GRAVEL not skimping for cost sake.
Still we blame the road, other drivers, governments, any one but the true person in charge us, drive to survive drive within the condition of the road.
But easier to blame THEM.
Better roads RObert kill less forgive bad driving not change it.

Hi there Belly...

An interesting piece if I may say so. I reckon one of the correspondents herein was correct, when they stated inter alia, it's a combination of both. It's a case of a poor road surface coupled by an inattentive ot careless driver, equals disaster.

And you're correct to assert that many of us would buck if our taxes were significently increased, in order to upgrade or rebuild roads.
So what can we do about it ?

Perhaps if our pollies dedicated the monies already raised by the fuel taxes, totally to road construction, then we may have better or safer roads.

Then we all know that pollies from both sides of politics, tend to sidetrack funds ostensibily meant for roads to other ventures they perceive to be of a higher priority. Or to fund a 'pet' project that may assist them to gain re-election ?

The latter, in my humble opinion may actually get them another term in Parliament - as almost all of us have a vital interest in better and safer roads, I should think.

Do roads kill, no they don't. It's drivers & vehicle owners that kill.

Anyone can drive to the state of a road, & most do, & do it well. Quite often the old bumpy, narrow road claims less drivers, than the new wide & safe appearing one that replaces it. The fact that the road is wider & smoother makes it more comfortable, not safer.

It is a long time since I lost control of a vehicle, but it happened recently, due to bad management. I was returning from Noosa, down the same "stone mastic" expressway I had admired earlier as I drove up from Brisbane that morning, a lovely, smooth, quiet [little tyre noise] road.

I was driving a 35 year old classic sports car, beautifully restored & a joy to drive. I did remember stories about this road being slippery when a moderately heavy shower passed over us.

I was pacing other traffic, at about the speed limit, or a little less, on a straight stretch of elevated almost flat road, & about 60 metres from other cars, with very little throttle required.

To my great surprise, the tail started to come around. Nothing I did had much effect on this behaviour, but over about 150 metres, with the car rotating through 200 degrees, I had slowed it to about 40Km/H, before gently running off the road more or less backwards, down the elevation. This being wet & muddy, the car quickly stopped.

After checking the car thoroughly, & ascertaining the condition of the owner, who did look a little green of complexion, I drove back onto the expressway, & continued on my way, without further trouble.

Later at a fuel stop, out of the rain, I again checked the car more thoroughly, & discovered the rear tyres were 15 years old. That makes them about 8 or 9 years past their use by date.

Continued

Continued

They were polished, & black, with plenty of tread, due to the small mileage old classic cars do, & looked perfect, but they had no place on any road, let alone a smooth wet one, at 100Km per hour.

Had we caused a major accident, I have no doubt the road surface would have been blamed, it is gathering a bad reputation. However I must wonder if this is because, like me, many drivers are running around on dangerous tyres.

Like me they may have assumed the tyres were good. Many would not know how to read the age of a tyre off the markings they all carry. I for one will never again assume a car is sound, just because it looks it, & is owned by a member of my car club.

So folks, no it wasn't the road, they can't bite, even when you aren't looking. If you have a single vehicle accident it is all your own fault, & no one else's. Take responsibility & the necessary care to ensure the equiptment is sound, & you should be right. Don't become complacent as I was, it could kill someone.

o sung Wu nice to see you around.
I want to go on record, first the NSW RTA [hi to our not so well hidden HFR visitor] showed me a great deal, in its training.
Both as worker/ganger then as senior union delegate.
I know, no doubts, we are getting a good Pacific, well built, as fast as it can be.
BUT remember built at too high a price, by contractors who add great amounts to contracted price.
It can not take place over night.
IF we not me, I have lived the night mare, can put our selves at 2 am in the rain , at the site of multiple fatal.
Signs flashing lights, even police Ambos Fire and Rescue, West pack helicopter.
2 klm WARNING.
Nearly killed, more than once, by motorist speed who INSIST no pre warning is in place.
Or two lane divided by a traffic Island equal in width to two lanes, and finding multiple times motorists heading in the wrong direction.
Roads do not kill we drivers do, pot holes do not murder we do with steering wheel in hand.
Just we humans find it hard to blame our selves we find no fault it saying others, the road, kills.
Even freeways are built to price safe well made but not built for the next 50 years.
If we build what we can afford we will never catch up.
If we spend our cash on better roads we,still will have bad roads nearly the equal of bad drivers.

So there you are folks.

I have no idea what bonmot has invested in global warming, career, gravy train ride, or just ego, but he is fulfilling the prophecy, & fighting like hell against any semblance of rationality in the matter.

He can rationalise away totally unconscionable behaviour by any of the faithful. I'll bet he believes the UN, & the IPCC are staffed by selfless angles, all those Himalayan glaciers have long since melted, & pigs can fly of course.

In the same way, thousands of economists are earning their living off the euro, probably more with the crisis, & Germany is desperately trying to help the euro, rather than making sure it stays devalued, making their industry more competitive & profitable.

Oh, & I came down in the last shower, & am still wet behind the ears. If I weren't I would have added the Y2K bug in there, as using the same technique to build a gravy train.

My experience, and from all observations it is painfully obvious, is that many overweight drivers suffer from sleep apnea resulting in a greater tendency to fall asleep at the wheel.
When this is coupled with the need to keep almost impossible deadlines you have the perfect cocktail for disaster on our roads.
All transport drivers should be tested for sleep apnea before they are given a license to drive.
CG

Last two post are welcome.
And about the standard in talking about this road and any road.
Hasbeen posts in the wrong thread about the wrong subject, standard issue for the subject.
Our new poster welcome mate, puts it all down to fat buggers falling asleep, while driving trucks!
Lets be clear, any road worker who ever walked, will think of truck drivers as foul mouthed owners of low IQs.
But jumping to the conclusions every one does is ?
Three recent deaths happened after car drivers on the wrong side of the road.
FORCED TRUCKS to attempt to avoid them by steering off the road.
We bog down, ever time,as opinion gets smashed against fact.
Poor drivers need not be drunk, asleep, fat, short tall, we all, sometimes maybe all the time are poor drivers.
Young drive too fast while the music is full blast? SOME not all on the phone? SOME.
It is never our fault,our mates fault our family's fault,THOSE OTHERS are to blame.
Oxley highway crosses the Pacific on it way west near port, both roads are well in to upgrades.
Both are charged with murder,after deaths only drivers could have avoided this last few weeks.
Both bring screams fix our roads.
I think hundreds of thousands of kilometers of other roads are awful in this country.
FIX MINE NOW! rules blinds us to the fact our first action should be placing the blame on? drivers!
Rob Oakshot, its his fault, every inch of bad road.
See some one, politicians always have, always will use this road to bend and twist truth, to make commitments that can not be kept.
Headlines remind us Oakshots electorate gets Oxley funding while Pacific murders drivers and others.
Both road are to be upgraded , who do we blame for deaths in the few years that will take?

Nice thread, belly. I worked on roads around the country for about 20 years, including a large part of the Hume Highway in several projects between Tarcutta and Goulburn. Those roads are wonders of construction: 500mm of select roadbase under nearly the same amount of concrete in two different grades, designed to last 40 years in Europe/America and expected to last 80 years here, where climate is kinder to roads (except when it floods).

However, those wonderful roads have a couple of flaws: firstly, they make the wheels emit a low-frequency hum which is very monotonous. They do that because they are "raked" to produce a slightly grooved surface in order to maintain grip in wet conditions. Second, they are white surfaces that reflect a huge amount of glare. Third, they are long straight runs, with few turns.

All of these things encourage fatigue. The tyre drone is like a white-noise generator, the glare makes one's eyes want to close and the long straight sections mean there's little concentration being applied to the task of driving in the first place.

As a result, there have been lots of single-vehicle rollovers on that highway when drivers have simply passed out and driven off the road.

A lot of it has since been resurfaced with asphaltic concrete, which was always part of the long-term plan, since the concrete settles in service and needs to be reprofiled to create a smooth road. That has improved the situation, at least in terms of the glare and the noise.

My point is that even the best roads (the Hume is designed to carry 1000+ 90t trucks per night) can have hidden faults that cause driver fatigue.

Anti yes you put your evidence of understanding right up front.
Concrete for its faults still looks best to me.
You would know parts of the Pacific are, still far less than 500 mm it total floating clay and rock on mud.
I monitor radios and right now three two car events are under way on the road.
No deaths it seems but we know cripples are found after such.
Worth noting two things holiday traffic, bit surprising to me going not coming is heavy.
All smashes on divided roads one three lanes each direction.
Still hurts , the memory's, the broken victims and dead.
And too police and others who broke after too many awful sights.
Two in a truck, my nephew loaded them with sugar, at Harwood.
6 hours later I and 40 others began removing their body's , well waited to,while it burnt.
Close to one hundred such memory's, roads now gone brand new ones that as Anti says talk as you drive over them, and roar if you live on it, night after night as trucks roar past nose to tail.

Hasbeen:

…Interestingly, on the subject of tyre faults, I was surprised to learn that “half worn” tyres show improved performance in dry conditions, specifically, dry handling speed, dry cornering and dry braking; varying performance gains up to 15% over a “new tyre” performance, under the same conditions. But the opposite is the case in wet conditions; the performance of half worn tyres in the wet, is diminished by the same factors up to 15%. To me, that would indicate, as tyres wear, a combination of the two factors apply, a 30% reduction in normal expectation of handling between wet and dry conditions, sneaks up on the driver with half worn tyres on their vehicle.

...I had a similar experience with old tyres to the experience you indicated in your post. The tyres in question were fitted to an old clunker, which was itself in beautiful order, including so I thought, all four tyres. What I didn’t realise at the time was, the car was rarely driven, over the past few years, a condition which would leave all tyres with the appearance of a perfect condition.

...I often experienced alarming hydroplaning, under speeds which would normally be considered safe. Another hint to a problem was the inability of the vehicle to accelerate from stopped, without spinning the back wheels. Four new tyres later, and all faults disappeared.

...Cheers…Dan.

I see in the news that some of the federal money set aside for the upgrade of the Pacific Hwy was diverted to projects in Rob Oakeshott's electorate.

It shows where Juliar's priorities are.

Where do you get your news from, The Tony abbott gazet. When it hits the big time we can make judgement.

579 mate a truth, you take the bait too easily.
NOT ONE WORD OF TRUTH in SMs post.
NO DIVERSION OF FUNDS.
A continuation of on going planned upgrade of the Killer Oxley highway.
The word politics in the title is because truth gets buried IN any debate about this as dead people become reason to defame, both sides of politics have been victims and abusers.
*True story, two dead fatal, 15 years ago newly upgraded road, in good condition no potholes*.
Sydney toilet news paper, front page, interviewed by two young reporters a local, told of the potholed highway.
He thought he was talking about a bad place 56 klm away from the death scene.
No potholes at that semi straight road.
HEADLINES! pot holed highway of death kills again mum and child die.
It became clear at coroners court mum had baby on back seat.
Bub cried mum turned around,at 100 plus, to put bottle in Baby's mouth.
Killer highway.
Twice large amounts of drugs and cash found in fatal smash events, both drivers dead tests showed high concentration of drugs.
How many head ons are suicide?
Killer highway diverted funds .
How much to fix our roads, in say 3 decades? fuel tax would all need to go in to it and be raised in my opinion to $10 a ltre.

Hasbeen, old buddy are you alright ? Not someone else's fault ? How un-australian.
Seriously, if only more people could understand the concept of self-discipline I'm sure we'd have far less roadkills rather than killer roads. I'm guilty myself of misjudging on the road & I only blame myself. I recall our local roads when you needed all your concentration to negotiate potholes & washouts. No accident had ever occurred to to speed. As soon as the road was sealed we had a fatal within a few weekes & several more since.
Our local Doctor rolled his 4x4 & landed on a log which crushed his roof. Because he didn't have his seat belt on he was flung across his seat & escaped injury. From his seat to the roof ended up at half a metre. Imagine if had been in a sitting position with the seat belt on.
Of course I'm not saying seat belts aren't good in most cases.

It is raining.
Not long ago on this part of the highway it meant get ready, be strong.
It meant for those who must attend the coming smash to get the special shirt on.
The one that held us together, let us pretend it was ok.
Still this rain may not kill, but it will hurt smashes happen more often in rain at dawn and middle of the night, sleep time faster to get home time.
Forget to adjust to road conditions time.
as anti said, new concrete roads are European standards, maybe not as many lanes, we keep putting an extra one on.
But if we constructed for a distant future say 15 years, we would have less for other roads.
Road construction and repair is far too important to be used as political fodder about one road, at the expense of every other.
No road still in place,as built ever killed or hurt any one.
Like the Fonz we can find a thousand reasons to not say we got it wrong.

I've been driving in 3 states and 2 teritories for 46 years. Accidents = 2 [ acts of god, unavoidable - hit by another driver in tail ]. speeding fines = 3 all in QLD - all BS by corrupt means. That said; back in 60's I drove dad's car [ no seat belts ] at 170KPH on open limit brand new Ballarat freeway. Top car [ Fairlane 500 ] top tyres, perfect day, straight road, little if any traffic. Did that make me a bad driver ?.4 things make an accident - the road, the weather, the car, the driver. If one of these things isn't perfect, your chances of accident magnify. THIS FORMULA HAS KEPT ME ALIVE and speed signs don't mean squat. Do you know the formula for speed advisory signs ? [blk/yell] It's the fastest safe speed in the worst conditions [ weather/road] with the best tyres. Drive accordingly and you'll be jake.

Well said Pepper, I regularly used to average well over 70 miles/hour, & occasionally up to the 80s driving interstate trips in the cars of the day, in the 60s, with never an accident, or even a scare. Overnight interstate trips were quite easy.

However you do want to be careful of those advisory speed signs in boarder areas. I often flit backwards & forwards across the NSW Qld boarder on roads inland from the coast.

In NSW in good conditions, in a nice car I usually double the recommended speed, & find that right up at the top end of the speed one would want to go, on the public road. Take 10Km/H off that & you have a reasonable cruising speed.

After crossing the boarder you want to make that speed double less 20Km/H or so. The Queensland recommendations are definitely higher than those in NSW, allowing less scope to drive faster than those recommended speeds. A number of people have given themselves a fright, when they found themselves going a bit fast for the corners, when they had not known of the difference.

It is easy to get sucked in, when you have been driving with one recommended level for an hour or two, then don't even notice you've crossed the border.

I well come those two posts but in a way it proves my point .
I remain a petrol head, even unwell can drive without a stop for 5 or 6 hours.
But can every one? should I.
No road still in its serviceable condition ever killed.
No acts of God except fire flood breakdown.
We share the road with drunks drug affected under skilled and speeders not in control of the car.
I always drive to conditions, and my known ability,if conditions are bad forget the skill.
On black on yellow first appearing I was a kid privileged to see the cars testing each corner.
Those drivers along with a red x round Australia competitor told me just that, after that speed it was unsafe.
73 human body's removed from cars trucks all types while I worked I stopped counting.
AS 28 DIED IN ONE YEAR 26 THE ONE BEFORE HOW MANY?
Drivers good bad ugly are the one in charge.

We must be careful to understand what we should and should not say about this theme.
But I need to say it.
A very long time ago I was monitoring CB radio, as an emergency monitor.
Mobile phones if they existed,and I am not sure, could not link to police and all services quickly.
A truck went past my door interfering with my receiver, I switched to his frequency and over heard him .
He was lost in abusing the motorist behind him.
He rolled the truck 500 meters down the road.
I rang the police ext and raced down to help.
He was sitting shaken but unhurt on the gutter two mates with him.
They, while I sat with them concocted a story about a phantom car, coming the other way.
Running him of the road.
My load slipped,a whole host of reasons got air, but that is the one they settled on.
Highways kill? maybe not.