ABC Radio National this past Monday.
A General practitioner also in the University of WA spoke on this subject.
It will be there on file and worth hearing.
60 Million dollars, that is the figure he put on visits to Doctors for that slip to be paid for? being sick.
That cost is to medi care, us the taxpayers.
It reminded me, I presented a workplace training set entitled absences in the workplace.
That was the RTA some had not taken a day sick in years, with entitlements of 200, 15 a year,some left without using them.
Is it ok the police we trust to protect us must provide Certificates, even if it is know they are sick.
A chemist can, some times do this.
But what of the people living Way out of town too sick to drive in.
Is it ok, that company's insist on us paying for visits to Doctors , or would it be far better to target those with offending history and put some trust in Stat Decs from the rest?

A simple solution - the company should reserve the right to send in an officer to verify that the employee is sick.
(they don't have to actually send someone every time, only if suspicious)

But better yet: no work - no pay!

Take your annual sick-leave in cash to begin with, then if you don't come to work, you don't get paid for that day.
(same as myself, being self-employed, if I'm sick I don't get paid)

The sick-leave is an incentive to lead an unhealthy lifestyle and/or to cheat.

Prejudice in favour of the sick is prejudice against the healthy!

A bit simplistic mate.
But in fact transferring the costs from us to the firm, increasing them in my opinion.
A attendance maximization scheme, thats the latest miss use of the English language used to describe it, is based on these.
Some, not even close to all, think of sick leave as an entitlement , to be used.
And it is, if sick.
Construction firms know it can be managed, and they do.
A working week can be 60 hours just on week days, then 12 on Saturday, maybe Sunday too.
Sickys happen.
So construction workers get 15 a year.
Usually they work from project to project.
They work two or three years then the job ends, they get all left over leave, baring ten days paid out.
The fact is government workers get 15,out door exposed to all weather.
And save in some cases hundreds over a working life that can be 40 or even 50 years.

I am yet to see a system that is not punitive,I understand some offenders need managing, even if it is out of a job.
But a system that lets police officers, or any one,be inspected at home, is sickening.
Punitive systems are driving the sick to take full weeks when a day was enough.
Firms have every right to ask are you sick.
But not to make the public pay for it 60 million dollars could fund better things
Never forget, forcing the sick to work could back fire, as every one be comes ill

But better yet: no work - no pay!
Yuyutsu,
you'd have 65 % of the population starving.

Never neat.

At my work place we can do a couple of day's without a certificate (I think we might need one if it's on a day either side of a public holiday). It's often difficult to get a doctor's appointment on the same day which makes a certificate for every absence messy.

I work with a lot contractors who don't get paid if they don't attend, a disturbing tendency to turn up when sick passing on their bug's to the rest of us.

Some reports I've heard suggest that the cost of passed on viruses in the work place is far higher than the cost of misused sickies. Eg one person over using sick leave is far cheaper than 10 being off sick because one person brought their sickness to the workplace when they should have stayed home.

In a lot of job's there are real risks to not being specifically sick but being over tired or otherwise not on the ball which complicate the issue. Maybe a reason for sick day's being called personal leave
in some places.

I do think that management of those suspected of abusing the system is far better than blanket rules which hurt everyone.

R0bert

belly all crime is sickness
where crime is you can be sure there is a sick mind

thus no docters certificates are fraud
mate were sick of the orders the boss is making

or angry..he got his bonus and i didnt
mate your going hard on the right wing

thats how they do it
bit by bit

them lousy bludgers
how dare they claim sick

well mate they are..!
but the lord masters on the right wing of histry
the inbred blue bloood elites pushing the blue coloured into sickness

mate lol labour party..
is run by the bossman..now

tyou just need to look at their policy[imagration/nukes...no secret ballot..follow the partyy line,,[not consistant conscience voting ALOL THE TIME!

not just when your trying to shaft tony
into a more hard right corner..with an extrem left adgenda

its just too clever by half ol mate

bit by bit
we all went to the right
forgeting to ask,...is this right or wrong"

workers get sick
we FOUGHT for sick days

that we now need prove it
is a sigh how sick the system has become

perverted mate
think

your so sick..yet you mannaged to go to a docter
not to work...MATE SICK IS A RIGHT..

now made into something you gotta proove!

bit by bit
then...before you realise it

your all right
im all right
stuff you others that arnt right

cause the right
has got it wrong

The doctor's certificate is a response to the Australian sport of "chucking a sickie". I have taken 2 days sick leave in 6 years, and neither time have I been asked for a doctor's certificate.

Sick leave is a protection, not a bonus.

I actually take many more sick days when I'm NOT getting paid for them.

Lets see... Wake up, feel like going to the beach, hell I'll just ring them up and say, sorry, not coming in today. No guilt, no fanciful story required, heaps of Mondays off in a row with no repercussions. Brilliant!

I'd Love it if sick days were unpaid for Salary type jobs. You'd get the security of full time work with no gaps between contracts, and you could randomly take days off left right and centre.

I think I'd take a sick day once or twice a fortnight if I wasn't getting paid.

I could catch every day of every cricket test for a start.

SM,

So you're one of the lousy sods who comes into work and spreads Germs around. Or just the Protestant work ethic bread and dripping workhorse! Take a bow! Being sick is for weak LOSERS huh?

If you really are that healthy, you should be thankful. When kids are in DayCare they're little disease incubators, bringing home all sorts of nasties. No matter how healthy your lifestyle (Yeah right, getting enough sleep!), no matter how many vitamins, it takes some killer immune system to fend off the snot and dribble of 30 toddlers.

It was clear to me this thread would divide us along politics and industrial relations lines.
Look I think that is how we go wrong.
This should be seen as a problem, one we are tasked with solving.
First step could be listening to the link on radio National.
That Doctor was clear,as I am, some fraud takes place, RObert has it right.
The following is one such certificate, demanded and excepted by bosses.
Background,worker attends after pay has been with held, gets some thing like this and it is excepted.
Mr/Mrs Smith informs me last week/month he/she was sick at home to unwell to come to see me, for one two three days
Doctor Bill the Government thanks

Inside a worker/boss/union round table, after a workers has lost a lot of time, you will see some are best by sacking them.
But on the RTA or some other jobs a man with well over 100 sick days untaken, in very real personal trouble,and not telling any one about it, can be hounded under current law or just not paid.
Better ways exist better bosses too
Have a penalty and review , fairly conducted, of true offenders but surely stat decs can be trusted here.
60 MILLION of our dollars is worth saving, remember a stat dec proved to lie is ample reason to sack a worker.
And if its certificates? Bill the boss not us.

H,

I am very seldom sick and neither are my kids. I get the whole family vaccinated for flu, the schools also encourage vaccinations and separate sick kids where possible from the general population.

Many of the tradies use up all their sick leave, and wonder why if after a number of years they are sick for longer than the 12 days, why there is little sympathy.

SM is unlikely to ever be charged with too much understanding.
He is not standing in the rain all day
Sicky can be very different and the boss too.
In flood country 40 klm from work, isolated from town and work.
I saw two different managers of 40 plus workers.
One would ring, say stay home do not try to cross the creek take sick leave.
Another same place replaced the first.
Try to get here any way you can., no sick leave will be paid in floods!
A death? trying to get to work? If it had happened I put him on notice I would see him charged, in time the firm found as I did he was unsuited for manèging people.
I know of country blokes unwilling to let the wife know they are seeing Doctors, I have taken such to boss and explained and it has been ok.
I have seen people take in excess of 30 days every year, including every second day after pay day.
Bigotry in this matter back fires.
People unfairly forced to get that certificate are advised, once by me, to get the week off twice each year so it works in reverse for hard bosses more time off.
Why make us all pay because of a few Shadow Ministers?

Belly,

Catch a relax. I have no problem with people that are genuinely sick. If it is dangerous to come to work, then I don't even dock them a sick day. However, if I catch someone bludging by taking a sick day to go to the beach or pub, then I throw the book at them.

The odd home visit gets the message across.

I never had a problem with doctors certificates or sickies.

In mostly small companies, where most people were the only one doing their particular job, we fitted together.

When someone needed to see a doctor, dentist, solicitor, or their kids school, they would make sure the chosen day was suitable, then work before & after their appointment. They would make sure their work was up to date, by working lunch time, or by starting early, & that was it, no paperwork involved.

When they could take the necessary time, they did not find a need for sickies.

As a national company we did not close for show days, or state only public holidays, & staff usually had a couple of these days saved up for when they did want/need a day off for some reason.

I know it may not work in a large company, but it did for us.

Self praise is no recommendation.
In fact quite the opposite for some.
Having been trained as a unionist to present this subject to the workforce I see both sides.
Including the rather good Doctors points radio national Monday morning last.
I wounder how many are aware how truly sick, fellow workers get with the poor ones?
And yes those few, infect the many, a flood of if he/she can get away with it why not.
I think some very bright people post here.
And that with good will, you can find answers.
Problem, current demand for certificates is at cost to us all 60 million dollars a year.
AND even if its clear worker was sick, some demand that document.
EVEN if it is clearly written by a doctor who NEVER SAW the patent sick?
Police, we trust them in so much, and others can be visited at home while sick?
Rewarding those who do not take them can bring sick to work, infecting every one.
I will have a go, stat Dec, standard sick leave one nation wide.
It contains reminder it is a crime to lie.
Offending workers/unexplained absences to be as first step reviewed and if needed put on program, certificates for every absence payed for by boss or him /her
Fine, harshly boss insisting the sick go to work.
I recommend every worker understand a heart attack or similar is much better if you have enough sick leave.
I had eleven weeks when Q fever nearly killed me and used it all, but left near 100 behind, on leaving that job

My industry often adopts a bonus system whereby the staff get a weekly bonus, not huge, but still something.

This bonus does not get paid if there is a public holiday, or, if you are off sick.

Works wel in most cases.

The more they have available the more they take. The real problem is the lack discipline in both employer & employee. The Public Service is the cell which is spreading this cancer.

Explanation, for individual.
Construction, once was based on Government constructors such as RTA.
As the work went to contract the award became an EBA.
As hours worked went from around 55, including some Saturdays, to 60 70 or even 80 a week.
And as work in rain became more usual, sick leave went up.
And it is/was needed.
A single man, near end of project, could well be one of the best workers, highly valued.
Working 7 long days, could need a day of to just refill the food in his donga[hut] or register his car.
That Sicky may be his only one in 3 years.
Commenting on issues you have only a little understanding of is some times unwise.
60 million in costs to us.
Stop forcing good workers to bill us.
In no way am I saying other than manage the problem not the whole.
Rewards need careful consideration, some limp in to work if not being there costs them and mates cash.

So this heroic RTA worker, this Stakhanov, is chained 24/7 to his job with no leave or time off of any form, and cannot find any way to nip off for a hour to renew his rego or go to the shops, other than by committing fraud?

Puleeez!

You do go over the top bloke I am heartened by it.
I spoke of construction workers contracted ones in fact.
Major road bridge construction sites.
Firms once Australian now over seas owned such as ABBY Thiess all basically owned by two international groups.
A ten or twelve hour day is worked.
AND lock down weekends are planed,that is long weekends knowns as RDO,s
But near jobs end or stress periods running late on project or a needed part of it.
Say finish a bridge so material can be transported over it, road gravel.
All days are worked.
At such times, consider the stress on all, better bosses than I see SM,privately invite their teams to take a Sicky one at a time.
It is not all combat out there.
Not every Sicky is a day out bludging on the boss.
It is not all warfare out there.
I highlight, warn SM is not alone, some want workers to be slaves see only the bad.
A good worker can be of real worth and can need to be with his/her kids or family while not sick, do we flog them for that.
Look, true, tell me what SM is trying to say if not workers are bad.
I think ending by law the need for other than offenders to produce a certificate unless the boss pays, not us,is an answer.
Separate to this offenders should be managed , not every one.
And some,skiving of in the offices should stop throwing stones.

Everyone expects reward for effort & so it should be. The customer puts up the money & the company pays the employee or so it should be. Because we have such insane numbers of public servants the Govt fleeces everyone else to secure the public service vote. So, the company has to pay more for idiotic permits & licenses, more tax etc. The worker then needs more to pay for his ever increasing Govt fees. before you know what's happening the customer can not afford australian workers anymore. The company sells out or goes offshore & presto, the unions are happy because now they can whinge & bitch & dream workers exploitation.
The worker is expected to work harder then gets sick & gets accused of having too many sickies. Meanwhile the bureaucrats in Govt take three months stress leave. for what no-one knows but they get it anyway. So you see a rather simplistic view of what's going on but factual nevertheless

Call me old fashioned, but I was brought up to believe that fraud was wrong.

Chucking a sickie is essentially taking a day's PAID leave over and above your leave entitlements on the basis of deliberately falsified documents.

That people accept this petty crime as normal is the reason that the trust relationship breaks down.

"That people accept this petty crime as normal is the reason that the trust relationship breaks down."

Shadow Minister I was also brought up to believe that fraud was wrong. I don't misuse sickies but if you think worker sickies are the reason the trust relationship breaks down you are missing a big part of the picture.

Bosses who cry poor when it comes to reward for effort for employee's while taking massive bonuses for themselves (did anyone mention politician pay rises). Managers who don't live by their own rules are a massive part of the breakdown of trust. There will be those who abuse the system regardless of the behaviour of management but in my view the far bigger fraud and breakdown of trust comes when those with the nominal power abuse it and that's all too common.

R0bert

We Shadow Minister are all an open book.
We can try to hide but in our written word.
In our body language.
We can be seen for what we are/think/and even other truths about us.
The thread has many heads.
One is 60 million dollars, we need not spend.
We, tax payers, pay that.
Lets look, with out the dark idea workers are lessor things, or that every Sicky is fraud.
Lets even leave your poorly hidden wish to fire me up, because you know I am Labor and Unionist.
Some illness will be bad enough for a doctor, certificate no problem there.
In country Australia a relationship exists between boss and workers more often good than bad.
A national system, not unlike some in place now, 3 single days a year without certificate.
More than 2 together needs one.
A performance monitoring program for constant unexplained over users.
We could cut that 60 million by half.
You seem less happy than usual, hope its nothing bad.
Be honest, have you ever seen a very sick worker continue to be at work? even been a bit concerned about your liability if he she died there?

Belly the other biggy that should be available is portable sick leave. If you change job's then accrued sick leave should go with you.

R0bert

Are you a public servant RObert?

Why on earth would, or should any company pick up a liability for weeks of sick leave for a person who is yet to make any contribution to that company.

Sick leave should not be accrued after the year it is available for. It is not another form of long service leave, which is how you seem to view it.

liability for weeks of sick leave
Hasbeen & Robert,
In my opinion you both have very valid points. I have accrued a lot of hours & would hate to lose them especially when hitting the age of aches & pain. I'd not be too pleased not to get any recognition for not taking too many sickies during my time.
I think there should be some recognition for those who accumulated many hours when they get their final payout. It could be in the form of a tax cut or salary sacrifice or go towards Super. We're always on about level playing fields so let's have one.
I also agree that a company should not be liable for extended sick leave for a new employee.
If that were to happen then the company should be able to get a tax break as well.
It's a dicy one alright but one that can be worked out. We're due for some heavy duty reforms after Julia & Co. Let's start collecting ideas now & offer Tony a challenge to reveal his policy on that before the election. Get him to make his policy advisors talk to the media about it. After all, most of these advisors are fence-sitters presently working for Julia.

It may be a state issue, sick leave is accumulated where my son works. indefinitely or until you leave and then they are paid out.

Belly,

Not every sickie is a fraud. DUH!

If you are sick, then take a sick day. If not then take leave. Anything else is fraud.

How hard is that?

579 awards and agreements have different rules, paying out is rare.
Hasbeen construction demands ten be kept at the end of jobs, so workers starting on the next project have them to fall back on.
Now that may not be different firms, unsure of the changes.
Yes RObert I agree.
In some cases, firm changes hands long service and sick leave carry on.
Some get 5 days a year some 12 some 15, some staff get unlimited.
Some need no certificate for all single days.
Some for all leave over 2 days.
Few know but some signed a 5 year agreement under both duress and work choices and still, until it expires get no sick leave.
A very near standard exists for long service, well some get better if working shifts, so why not sick leave.
I worked with this thought always.
If you like your job you have life beaten.
And I liked and was interested always or I left.
So Sicky usually a rare thing for me.

Hasbeen I was thinking in terms of part of a severance being accrued sick leave being paid out to some form of fund that future employers could draw from if an employee required more sick leave than they had accrued in a new job.

It should not be too hard to keep track of an individuals entitlements not should it be expensive to do so.

Something Howard should have done when he was talking about people just changing job's if they didn't like changed conditions.

For those who've looked after their health when young but would like some backup against the risk of illness as they get older it could save a lot of grief.

R0bert

RObert good thought.
It gave me an idea, first have to hold my hands up I got it wrong in thinking of a one scheme nation wide.
That would require some to have less sick leave others more, a true problem.
We have not had much comment on the 60 million dollars in health costs we pay, tax payers each year.
So why not implement laws that reduce those costs, and in the first few years put those saved funds in a national scheme for such as you talk of.
I know those rules, if it was to work, would need too to target the poor performers in the workforce in this area sick leave.
And that some unions will fight it,almost without thought.
Such action is wrong, always, attempts to protect offenders in the end hurt every one,no union should forget that, it irks the members.
Offenders? like a road map, look at the past history of any group.
You will see outstandingly good attendance.
And outstandingly poor, a Neon light like warning.
Fairness and Equity should be no threat to workers or bosses, that is the past and future of good unionism,there is a difference.

60 million dollars in health costs we pay
Belly,
How much of the money provided by Govt to Health does actually go to health related coffers. From my experience much of the funding goes into bureaucratic bungling & misappropriation. Actual medical only gets some of it. In my area even the helicopter pilots say that they feel like a ...taxi because all they seem to be doing is flying pregnant teenage girls into town. I recall one team a while ago ordering a return charter on the same day for a week because they found the accommodation too crappy. Free medication for diabetic public servants on $180,000.- a year. Insanely expensive architect design staff accommodation. Toyota XLS 4wd provided for Drs. Most of the services going to repeat admissions for drunkeness related injuries. Dialysis machine not being used & just sitting there for years & patients being flown & accommodated in major towns instead. Patients booked on flights don't show up in time then get booked again. The list is simply endless of mismanaging within the health system. Centralisation is the root of this evil but try tell that to the supporters of social engineering Government.

Indy do you or did you work in health?
I can say, with certainty my 22 years in NSW roads department, it has had that many names too.
It is true, failures and a culture of failure from within the office kills every attempt at excellence.
BUT this is the amount the Doctor says is paid to him and his like.
To write a certificate, OFTEN after the person is well.
Think with me here, we do not get on, I make no further efforts to do so.
But what was your intention in that post?
Has it even remotely anything to do with the subject?
Are you concerned/not concerned with the wast.
Is it a worth while thing to not wast our money to prove a worker was sick?
Or should the person asking for it pay not us.

Belly,
yeah, strayed off topic there but my point was that waste is waste. Be it a Dr's certificate or the Dr himself wasting time & money by handing out certificates. I believe that sticking to topics in a strict sense more often than not fails to expose facts associated with the topic.
Anyhow, where I live sickies make up 3 fold the allocated time allowed. Most time off is simply due to hangover after footy or footy/fight injury. My sickies are mainly due to flu spread in small aircraft full of sneezing, coughing & spluttering by people who don't have the decency to hold a hanky in front of their mouth when sneezing.
Living in a rural area does not build up as immunity as does city life.
I believe stress causes people to take more & more sickies also. I think sickies will need to be reviewed as we become more & more susceptible to various flu. We need an allowance of sickies because we don't earn enough to see us through without getting paid sickies.
It all goes back to economics. I know senior bureaucrats who should be permanently on sick leave, it would prove more economic & beneficial to the rest of us.

misconduct is found. I personally find that not even a change of government can stamp out the incompetence & waste of public money in Qld Health. Qld Health needs to be abolished & start from afresh. If anyone knows of a good investigative journalist then send him to work around far north Qld.
Posted by individual, Monday, 6 August 2007 9:44:00 AM
Belly,
I just dug this up after hearing that Anna Bligh is getting stuck into Qld Health & talking about breaking it up.. Not a minute too soon.